Hello Nick!

The '> ' prefix is definitely more universal, not only for
FTN, but newsgroups and email as well. However, initials
don't bother me much if they're there or not, as I don't
usually look at them, and normally don't quote past the
first level anyways.

Personally, I like the following method of quoting..

The '> ' prefix is definitely more universal, not only for

FTN, but newsgroups and email as well. However, initials
don't bother me much if they're there or not, as I don't
usually look at them, and normally don't quote past the
first level anyways. <NB

IOW, just put a quoted block between two quotes. One at that
beginning, and one at the end of the block.

Or.. even something simpler without the initials..

The '> ' prefix is definitely more universal, not only for

FTN, but newsgroups and email as well. However, initials
don't bother me much if they're there or not, as I don't
usually look at them, and normally don't quote past the
first level anyways. <<

--
../|ug

--- OpenXP 5.0.58
* Origin: (2:221/1.58)

Hello Maurice!

Why not just ONE prefix (initials or no initials) at the
beginning..

The '> ' prefix is definitely more universal, not only for FTN, but newsgroups and email as well.

Agreed. I think it would be the best way to handle this all things considered. I will definetly adjust accordingly from here on in. As for the trailing spaces I am inclined to keep them where they exist but getting rid of them is of no real concern. If I discover something that indicates differently I'll let you know.

Why do we really need repeated initals on each line anyway?

--
../|ug

--- OpenXP 5.0.58
* Origin: (2:221/1.58)

Hey August!

Why not just ONE prefix (initials or no initials) at the
beginning..

It could.

Why do we really need repeated initals on each line anyway?

It makes it easier to distinguish a quote from the rest of the MSG.

For the record, I'd rather not quote at all but if we're going to do it then keeping true to the words quoted and having them distiguishable from the rest of the MSG is a nice touch. The above looks good from this angle.

Life is good,
Maurice

-o -o -o o-
(\ (\ (\ /)
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
... Eþel byþ oferleof æghwylcum men.
Home is very dear to every man.
--- GNU bash, version 5.2.37(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
* Origin: Little Mikey's Brain - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001)

Hello Maurice!

Why do we really need repeated initals on each line anyway?

It makes it easier to distinguish a quote from the rest of the MSG.

Yes.. the initals help as a reminder who's voice that was.

For the record, I'd rather not quote at all but if we're going to do it then keeping true to the words quoted and having them distiguishable from the rest of the MSG is a nice touch. The above looks good from this angle.

You mean just rely on the threading codes?

--
../|ug

--- OpenXP 5.0.58
* Origin: (2:221/1.58)

Hey August!

I wasn't referring to just the quote initials when commenting on distinguishing quotes from the rest of the MSG. Instead to the entire quoting prefix whether or not there are initials, spaces, etc. within the prefix. According to http://ftsc.org/docs/fsc-0032.001;

Newly quoted text should be preceeded by the a single space,
a greater than symbol ('>') and another space.

Other than tacking on the prefix ' > ' the above quote is an exact replica of the original text. This differs slightly from what Nick last posted where the prefix omitted the leading space, '> '. Either way works for me but am noting that mutt (email agent with vim as default editor) uses the '> ' quote prefix which appears to be the norm in traditional email applications.

As for the threading codes, I am assuming you are referring to MSGID/REPLY, which in the case of this REPLY, will work but will not work if a proper MSGID doesn't exist in the MSG one is REPLYing to. Also quotes can exist in posts that aren't a REPLY.

Life is good,
Maurice

o- -o -o -o
/) (\ (\ (\
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
... Ðonne se heretoga wacað þonne bið eall se here swiðe gehindred.
When the general weakens, the whole army is greatly hindered.
--- GNU bash, version 5.2.37(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
* Origin: Little Mikey's Brain - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001)

Hello Maurice!

I wasn't referring to just the quote initials when commenting on distinguishing quotes from the rest of the MSG. Instead to the entire quoting prefix whether or not there are initials, spaces, etc. within the prefix. According to http://ftsc.org/docs/fsc-0032.001;

The problem with that ftsc proposal is that it doesn't define
what a "line" is. Is it like I just used it in my above quote?
Or.. is "line" 30-40 characaters, or something?

Newly quoted text should be preceeded by the a single space, a greater than symbol ('>') and another space.

Well.. my quoted parts above follow that rule.

As for the threading codes, I am assuming you are referring to MSGID/REPLY, which in the case of this REPLY, will work..

Yes.. that is what I meant. The official terms escaped me at
the time of writing.

..but will not work if a proper MSGID doesn't exist in the
MSG one is REPLYing to. Also quotes can exist in posts
that aren't a REPLY.

Ah.. then some intelligence could be built into the quoting
system to prompt for quoting or not. If a MSGID is present in
the original, then offer quoting as an option. If no MSGID is
present, then proceed with a quoting method.

I may be mistaken but I believe the QWK messages do not have
MSGIDs produced at the source.
--
../|ug

--- OpenXP 5.0.58
* Origin: (2:221/1.58)

Hey August!

The problem with that ftsc proposal is that it doesn't define
what a "line" is.

Back then the default terminal was 80 characters wide. That was true for GUI terminals as well. Thus when that document was written I believe everyone and their dog was assuming a line was 79 characters with the null character in the 80th position. I seem to recall teletype machines being 72 characters, which could explain why some strings - subject() being a good example - are limited to 72 (71 plus null) characters. As far as I am personally concerned, I vote for unlimited (unbounded) line lengths which is covered in http://ftsc.org/docs/fts-0001.016.

I may be mistaken but I believe the QWK messages do not have
MSGIDs produced at the source.

QWK messages aren't FTN MSGs. As we speak, my vim can do modified MSG format (packed MSG without the binary header garbage) but not QWK, or Bluewave. It does email along with mutt's assistance.

Life is good,
Maurice

-o -o o- -o
(\ (\ /) (\
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
... Lot sceal mid lyswe, list mid gedefum.
Cunning goes with corruption, craft with what is right.
--- GNU bash, version 5.2.37(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
* Origin: Little Mikey's Brain - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001)

Hey Maurice!

On Sun, Dec 08 2024 20:41:25 +0000, you wrote ..

Other than tacking on the prefix ' > ' the above quote is an exact
replica of the original text. This differs slightly from what Nick
last posted where the prefix omitted the leading space, '> '. Either
way works for me but am noting that mutt (email agent with vim as
default editor) uses the '> ' quote prefix which appears to be the norm
in traditional email applications.

Can confirm that the leading space is not included in most of the email and/or newsgroup clients I've tried recently.

This list consists of Thunderbird, Claws Mail, slrn, tin, alpine, and most recently (and used in this message), neomutt. However, I believe that string is configurable in most of the ones I just listed, but if you change the default, then external editors like vi(m) or nano don't recognize them when you try to reformat the quoted text.

... �onne se heretoga waca� �onne bi� eall se here swi�e gehindred.

How's the weather up there? This past Monday and Tuesday we got to -30F (-34.44444C).

Regards,
Nick

... He who laughs last, thinks slowest.
--- SBBSecho 3.23-Linux
* Origin: _thePharcyde telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin) (1:154/700)

Hey Maurice!

On Sun, Dec 08 2024 17:25:31 +0000, you wrote ..

... Eþel byþ oferleof æghwylcum men.

Last reply, I think I found a configuration error in .neomuttrc. So here goes another. :)

Regards,
Nick

... He who laughs last, thinks slowest.
--- SBBSecho 3.23-Linux
* Origin: _thePharcyde telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin) (1:154/700)

Hej Nick!

Can confirm that the leading space is not included in most of the
email and/or newsgroup clients I've tried recently.

That matches what I've seen with mutt since it became my default email client way back when. I have yet to do any further work on it since I am still getting probed and feeling very much under the weather. :-(

Speaking of weather ...

This past Monday and Tuesday we got to -30F (-34.44444C).

WHOA!!! Nowhere near that cold here. We're averaging around 6C for daytime highs lately. No rain (nor snow) which is a tad scary for this time of year.

I note that your MSG claims cp437 which fails when plugged into an iconv. However, ISO-8859-1 aka LATIN1 works great as shown below;

... Ðonne se heretoga wacað þonne bið eall se here swiðe gehindred.

Het leven is goed,
Maurice

-o o- o- o-
(\ /) /) /)
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
... Terug naar de basis.
--- GNU bash, version 5.2.37(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
* Origin: Little Mikey's EuroPoint @ (2:280/464.113)

Hej Nick!

... Eþel byþ oferleof æghwylcum men.

Last reply, I think I found a configuration error in .neomuttrc. So
here goes another. :)

Much better although no iconv was required since you are successfully claiming UTF-8 which happens to be my default on everything I am currently using for EVERYTHING, including the MSG format.

Dat is mijn verhaal en ik blijf erbij.

Het leven is goed,
Maurice

-o o- -o o-
(\ /) (\ /)
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
... Terug naar de basis.
--- GNU bash, version 5.2.37(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
* Origin: Little Mikey's EuroPoint @ (2:280/464.113)

Hey Maurice!

On Mon, Jan 27 2025 01:45:24 +0000, you wrote ..

Last reply, I think I found a configuration error in .neomuttrc. So
here goes another. :)

Much better although no iconv was required since you are successfully claiming UTF-8 which happens to be my default on everything I am
currently using for EVERYTHING, including the MSG format.

Yep. I noticed the issue in the first message, so I changed up my .neomuttrc by removing:

set send_charset "us-ascii:ibm437:iso-8859-1:utf-8"

Apparantly all of those characters were able to be translated to ISO-8859-1/LATIN-1 before it got to UTF-8. I understand the order I provided, but Synchronet gave it a CHRS: CP437 kludge for some reason. That's about the jist of what happened. Seems to be working better now with:

set assumed_charset = "ibm437"

.. basically anything without a kludge or a Content-Type header would be assumed to be that, since I'm only using NNTP for FTN related things, anyways.

set charset = "utf-8"
set newsgroups_charset = "utf-8"

Incoming cp437 is still translates correctly by iconv, so as long as I reply to it correctly I should be off to a good start. Neomutt should auto-detect my outgoing message and slap a proper content-type header on it, which Synchronet should be able to read and apply the proper CHRS kludge for FTN. This one will probably go out as ascii, since there is no CP437 or UTF-8 in the message.

By the way, Neomutts provided neomuttrc is over 7k lines. I didn't realize I was punishing myself when I decided to install it and give it a go. :)

Either way, now I have working email client that supports html in my Linux console (automatically viewing in lynx), as well as a nice console NNTP client that supports mime. So a win for me, in my opinion! :)

Regards,
Nick

... He who laughs last, thinks slowest.
--- SBBSecho 3.23-Linux
* Origin: _thePharcyde telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin) (1:154/700)

Hej Nick!

set assumed_charset = "ibm437"

Which according to IANA is the real name for that code page. I think sticking to real names is preferable given that fts-5003.001 has been seriously corrupted. Same could be said for fts-4008.002 (timezone) but that's another sad story amongst the many obvious flaws that continue to plague fidonet.

Incoming cp437 is still translates correctly by iconv

Yep. cp437 is a legitimate alias.

This one will probably go out as ascii

That is what I see. Near as I can tell my reply to you is also ascii but given that 7-bit ascii is part of utf-8 this isn't really an issue as this reply is evidence of.

I have working email client that supports html in my Linux console (automatically viewing in lynx)

Excellent! links should also work straight out of the box. I have both here.

Het leven is goed,
Maurice

-o o- o- o-
(\ /) /) /)
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
... Terug naar de basis.
--- GNU bash, version 5.2.37(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
* Origin: Little Mikey's EuroPoint @ (2:280/464.113)

Hey Maurice!

On Tue, Jan 28 2025 02:57:34 +0000, you wrote ..

This one will probably go out as ascii

That is what I see. Near as I can tell my reply to you is also ascii
but given that 7-bit ascii is part of utf-8 this isn't really an issue
as this reply is evidence of.

Yep, understood. However, if whatever I'm using wants to auto-detect and slap the proper charset on the message, so be it (as long as it's correct, of course). This has been the case so far with slrn, tin, and now neomutt (and I think I like the latter the best, so far.. probably because it's the only one of the three that does email *and* nntp).

I have working email client that supports html in my Linux console
(automatically viewing in lynx)

Excellent! links should also work straight out of the box. I have
both here.

Which do you prefer? Do you have an 'off the top of your head' list of pros and cons as your reasoning for keeping both around? Or, is it just to have options? :)

Regards,
Nick

... He who laughs last, thinks slowest.
--- SBBSecho 3.23-Linux
* Origin: _thePharcyde telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin) (1:154/700)

Hey Nick!

if whatever I'm using wants to auto-detect and slap the proper
charset on the message, so be it (as long as it's correct, of course)

Works for me. I trust your judgement on these matters.

Which do you prefer?

I like both of them.

<Esc>:r !lynx --version
Lynx Version 2.9.2 (31 May 2024)
libwww-FM 2.14, SSL-MM 1.4.1, GNUTLS 3.8.8, ncurses 6.5.20240427(wide)
Built on linux-gnu (Dec 28 2024 22:29:26).

Copyrights held by the Lynx Developers Group,
the University of Kansas, CERN, and other contributors.
Distributed under the GNU General Public License (Version 2).
See https://lynx.invisible-island.net/ and the online help for more information.

<Esc>:r !links -version
Links 2.30

I usually use links for browsing and lynx for conversion of html to text. Also, despite having graphics turned off in links, I can still view all sorts of multimedia files by farming it out to a proper application for whatever format ... all without the need for xorg etal.

Life is good,
Maurice

o- o- -o o-
/) /) (\ /)
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
... Þæs ofereode, þisses swa mæg.
That passed away; so will this.
--- GNU bash, version 5.2.37(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
* Origin: Little Mikey's Brain - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001)

Hey Maurice!

On Wed, Jan 29 2025 01:28:53 +0000, you wrote ..

I usually use links for browsing and lynx for conversion of html to
text. Also, despite having graphics turned off in links, I can still
view all sorts of multimedia files by farming it out to a proper
application for whatever format ... all without the need for xorg
etal.

I see. In my case then, I'm currently only using lynx for conversion of html to text as well. I imagine I don't really have a need for browsing on the same machine at this time.

... ��s ofereode, �isses swa m�g.

What in the world is this?! I believe this is the first time Google translate has failed me (and I've thrown quite a bit at it). It detected it as English, but didn't translate it (left it as English with no change). So I had to use a bit of Google-fu to find out it's part of an Old English poem that translates to: "that passed over, so may this."

Regards,
Nick

... He who laughs last, thinks slowest.
--- SBBSecho 3.23-Linux
* Origin: _thePharcyde telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin) (1:154/700)

Hey Maurice!

On Wed, Jan 29 2025 01:28:53 +0000, you wrote ..

... ��s ofereode, �isses swa m�g.

Quoting this again, because my settings changes the other day didn't seem to work. Now I'm commenting out 'set assumed_charset = "ibm437"'. Hopefully that's the culprit.

Regards,
Nick

... He who laughs last, thinks slowest.
--- SBBSecho 3.23-Linux
* Origin: _thePharcyde telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin) (1:154/700)

Hey Maurice!

On Wed, Jan 29 2025 01:28:53 +0000, you wrote ..

... Þæs ofereode, þisses swa mæg.

Sigh, last one. Promise. >:)

Regards,
Nick

... He who laughs last, thinks slowest.
--- SBBSecho 3.23-Linux
* Origin: _thePharcyde telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin) (1:154/700)

Hey Maurice!

On Thu, Jan 30 2025 04:39:19 +0000, you wrote ..

No doubt. ibm437 lacks the proper characters for conversion from old english. You'd have better luck with iso-8859-1 but I believe even
that lacks at least a couple of proper characters for old english.

I'm well aware of all that. It's this program's configuration that's kind of baffling me (slrn, tin, and alpine do not and have not acted this way). What in the world would be causing this to send in iso-8859-1 yet it tacks on a 'CHRS: CP437' kludge? Sigh..

I found a new setting that I wasn't previously using. 'assumed_charset' is no longer being used since iconv should be able to detect the charset, anyways.

set send_charset = us-ascii:ibm437:utf-8

.. is seeming to do the trick with a few more tests after my multiple posts here last night.

utf-8 is the way to go. Speaking for myself ascii is what I use on a
daily basis.

I agree. However, if I do (usually accidentally) quote someone's CP437 characters, in some sort of politeness/etiquette/whatever you want to call it, I suppose, I'd prefer that they could read my reply properly in whatever charset they're using.

Regards,
Nick

... He who laughs last, thinks slowest.
--- SBBSecho 3.23-Linux
* Origin: _thePharcyde telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin) (1:154/700)

Hey Nick!

What in the world would be causing this to send in iso-8859-1 yet it
tacks on a 'CHRS: CP437' kludge?

I always blame microsoft programmers when seeing things like you describe. You now have me wondering what would happen with cp866 or other 8-bit ibm character sets.

I'd prefer that they could read my reply properly in whatever
charset they're using.

An honourable goal for sure. However I have seen msg's that claim cp437 when they're actually cp1252. A certain Björn was famous for this behavior.

Life is good,
Maurice

-o o- -o -o
(\ /) (\ (\
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
... Sceal þegna gehwilc geþylde nimon.
Every man must acquire patience.
--- GNU bash, version 5.2.37(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
* Origin: Little Mikey's Brain - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001)

Hey Maurice!

On Thu, Jan 30 2025 20:18:05 -0600, you wrote ..

I always blame microsoft programmers when seeing things like you
describe. You now have me wondering what would happen with cp866 or
other 8-bit ibm character sets.

If you shoot me a message with any other 8-bit charsets, I can reply and see what happens.

An honourable goal for sure. However I have seen msg's that claim
cp437 when they're actually cp1252. A certain Björn was famous for
this behavior.

That's exactly what I'm not trying to do. ;)

... Sceal þegna gehwilc geþylde nimon.

Regards,
Nick

... He who laughs last, thinks slowest.
--- SBBSecho 3.23-Linux
* Origin: _thePharcyde telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin) (1:154/700)

Hey Nick!

If you shoot me a message with any other 8-bit charsets, I can reply
and see what happens.

�����, ��� ��, 㬭� ��� �ࠪ��

If I did this correct then the above Russian is a translation of "Strong like bull, smart like tractor' in cp866 characters. I left the CHARS kludge set to "UTF-8 4" since I don't wish to screw with the current configuration but will change it in future tests if this proves to be something worth pursuing in the future.

Life is good,
Maurice

-o o- -o -o o- -o o- o- -o -o -o o- -o o- -o -o
(\ /) (\ (\ /) (\ /) /) (\ (\ (\ /) (\ /) (\ (\
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ... Fidonet 4K - Sweet Sixteen Penguins of the Apocalypse.
--- GNU bash, version 5.2.37(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
* Origin: One of us @ (1:153/7001.2989)

Hej Maurice!

Сильный, как бык, умный как трактор

More proof that everything you know is wrong. :-)

Het leven is goed,
Maurice

o- -o o- -o
/) (\ /) (\
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
... Terug naar de basis.
--- GNU bash, version 5.2.37(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
* Origin: Little Mikey's EuroPoint @ (2:280/464.113)

Hey Maurice!

On Thu, Jan 30 2025 21:42:04 -0600, you wrote ..

If I did this correct then the above Russian is a translation of
"Strong like bull, smart like tractor' in cp866 characters. I left
the CHARS kludge set to "UTF-8 4" since I don't wish to screw with the current configuration but will change it in future tests if this
proves to be something worth pursuing in the future.

That definitely didn't work on any of my newsreaders, and I don't think the CHRS kludge matters much in my case, it's the "Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8" that came with this message, most likely.

Regards,
Nick

... He who laughs last, thinks slowest.
--- SBBSecho 3.23-Linux
* Origin: _thePharcyde telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin) (1:154/700)

Hey Maurice!

On Thu, Jan 30 2025 22:57:41 -0600, you wrote ..

Сильный, как бык, умный как трактор

More proof that everything you know is wrong. :-)

This one worked much better. ;)

Regards,
Nick

... He who laughs last, thinks slowest.
--- SBBSecho 3.23-Linux
* Origin: _thePharcyde telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin) (1:154/700)

Hey Nick!

it's the "Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8" that came with
this message, most likely.

Let's try setting the CHRS kludge to cp866 and see what happens before getting too excighted about it.

Life is good,
Maurice

-o o- o- o-
(\ /) /) /)
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
... Fus sceal feran, fæge sweltan.
Those who are ready must go, the doomed die.
--- GNU bash, version 5.2.37(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
* Origin: Little Mikey's Brain - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001)

Hey Nick!

This one worked much better. ;)

That's because it actually was utf-8 converted from the cp866 using iconv.

Life is good,
Maurice

-o -o -o -o
(\ (\ (\ (\
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
... Ne scyle wandian witona ænig þæt he his ælmessan ofte gesylle.
No wise person should hesitate to give alms often.
--- GNU bash, version 5.2.37(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
* Origin: Little Mikey's Brain - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001)

Hey Maurice!

On Fri, Jan 31 2025 18:47:39 -0600, you wrote ..

This one worked much better. ;)

That's because it actually was utf-8 converted from the cp866 using
iconv.

I know exactly what that was. I was being sarcastic, and even included a winking smiley face!

Regards,
Nick

... He who laughs last, thinks slowest.
--- SBBSecho 3.23-Linux
* Origin: _thePharcyde telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin) (1:154/700)