I've recently set up an old Pi2 for use with a USB oscilloscope.
The scope software is point and click for the most part. Is there
some user interface trick to limp along using a mouse alone? Almost
no keyboard input is required, so it needn't be fast or easy.
An attempt to run raspi-config by copying the filename via the
file manager and pasting it into the "run command" dialog failed,
with neither error nor execution, though the "open" option did
start an editor. That was a surprise.
Thanks for reading and any suggestions.
You need a virtual keyboard, a web search for 'pi virtual keyboard'
comes up with loads of hits.
There are several in the standard Raspbian repositories:-
apt search "on-screen keyboard"
Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> wrote:
You need a virtual keyboard, a web search for 'pi virtual keyboard'
comes up with loads of hits.
There are several in the standard Raspbian repositories:-
apt search "on-screen keyboard"
Thank you, the choice of search terms makes a big difference!
That has led to another puzzle: The Pi2 is on a wifi dongle that
reports a connection using 192.168.1.10 and successfully downloads
RasPiOS updates. However, turning on ssh using the Raspberry>
Preferences> Raspberry Pi Configuration menu and rebooting doesn't
allow ssh login. Indeed, my DHCP server doesn't seem to notice
that the Pi2 is connected and ping from my Pi5 to the Pi2 reports
"host is unreachable".
It wouldn't be a huge mystery if the WiFi couldn't connect, but the combination of the Pi2 claiming 192.168.1.10 and yet not being
visible strikes me as inexplicable unless the software updates are
being downloaded vi some non-IP protocol, which seems implausible.
The only clue so far is that traceroute 192.168.1.10 on the Pi5 reports: traceroute to 192.168.1.10 (192.168.1.10), 30 hops max, 60 byte packets
1 192.168.1.11 (192.168.1.11) 3077.790 ms !H 3077.735 ms !H 3077.730 ms !H
To clarify, the Pi5 is .11, the router is .254 and I don't know what the traceroute output means but it looks like a complaint about time.
Three possible things to check:-
1 - Are the two Pis on the same subnet? I.e. while you have told us
the whole address for the Pi2 (192.168.1.10) you have only given the
last digit for the Pi5 and the router. What are the full IPV4
addreses for the Pi5 and the router. Certainly some widely used
routers default to 192.168.0.254 and I'm wondering if that is your
problem. Maybe you even have *two* subnets on the router.
2 - Are you using the 'guest' WiFi of the router, this may prevent
connecting between different systems using the WiFi. This may even be possible to configure with non-guest networks. You'll have to look
into the router configuration to check.
3 - Is the Pi2 connected to the same network/router as the Pi5? Are
you sure it's using DHCP to get its address? If so then you should be
able to check on the router that it's connected to as it is the router
that is handing out IP addresses (usually).
The first thing I would be doing is to look at the routers's Web GUI
to check what it thinks is going on and what is connected to where.
Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> wrote:[snip]
The first thing I would be doing is to look at the routers's Web GUI
to check what it thinks is going on and what is connected to where.
The DHCP range is limited to 192.168.1.nnn, with no distinction between
wired and wireless connections. There's clearly bridging from wirless to wired devices such as the printer, which works and can be pinged.
Maybe there's a firewall between wireless clients. I've certainly not needed such connections much. I'll poke around on the Web to see if there are any references to Guest Mode online. The internal help pages are close to useless,
and the configuration menus are worse.
bp@www.zefox.net wrote:
Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> wrote:[snip]
Router software does sometimes have bugs. I have a TP-link router
that has a symptom a bit like yours, I can't remember the exact
details (it's relegated to being an access point now) but I do
remember that it was something about the firewall treating WiFi
connections differently from wired ones.
Can you temporarily connect the Pi2 using a wired connection and see
if it then works as expected?
Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> wrote:
bp@www.zefox.net wrote:
Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> wrote:[snip]
Router software does sometimes have bugs. I have a TP-link router
that has a symptom a bit like yours, I can't remember the exact
details (it's relegated to being an access point now) but I do
remember that it was something about the firewall treating WiFi
connections differently from wired ones.
That's much like what I'm seeing.
Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> wrote:
3 - Is the Pi2 connected to the same network/router as the Pi5?The DHCP range is limited to 192.168.1.nnn, with no distinction between
wired and wireless connections. There's clearly bridging from wirless to wired devices such as the printer, which works and can be pinged.
On 15/09/2024 23:37, bp@www.zefox.net wrote:
Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> wrote:
3 - Is the Pi2 connected to the same network/router as the Pi5?The DHCP range is limited to 192.168.1.nnn, with no distinction between
wired and wireless connections. There's clearly bridging from wirless to
wired devices such as the printer, which works and can be pinged.
Unfortunately at one location I have to use an externally managed
router/AP which bridges wireless and wired networks, but not between
2.4GHz and 5GHz WiFi.
I couldn't talk to a Pi Zero which only uses 2.4GHz from the laptop
which had connected to 5GHz. I had to go via another Raspberry Pi which
was connected by Ethernet and could see devices both WiFi frequencies.
Check if your wireless settings for the router have something called "AP Isolation" or very similar and if it is enabled. If it is enabled,
devices connected by WiFi will not be able to access each other. Turn it
off in this case.
mm0fmf <none@invalid.com> wrote:
Check if your wireless settings for the router have something called "AP
Isolation" or very similar and if it is enabled. If it is enabled,
devices connected by WiFi will not be able to access each other. Turn it
off in this case.
Hmm, nothing related that I have seen. The term "access point" doesn't
appear in the manual or setup menus, nor "isolation" or anything close
to it.
It isn't clear that I've completely searched the Web interface setup
options, however. And a few topics I don't recognize. One is "Virtual Server", described as:
Virtual Server is used to allow Internet users access to LAN services
At face value, that seems not to apply.
Another is "Special Application", described as:
Special Application is used to run applications that require multiple connections.
But, the "special applications" list refers to games.
The firewall rules dangled an option to allow LAN-to-LAN traffic,
but when I tried to set a rule using the DHCP addresses a dialog
box saying:
Allow/Deny traffic from WAN to WAN or LAN to LAN does not support! (sic)
There's no distinction between WiFi and wired LAN that I can find.
Thanks for writing!
bob prohaska
Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> wrote:
bp@www.zefox.net wrote:
Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> wrote:[snip]
Router software does sometimes have bugs. I have a TP-link router
that has a symptom a bit like yours, I can't remember the exact
details (it's relegated to being an access point now) but I do
remember that it was something about the firewall treating WiFi
connections differently from wired ones.
That's much like what I'm seeing.
Can you temporarily connect the Pi2 using a wired connection and see
if it then works as expected?
The Pi2 has been used on wired ethernet, but under
FreeBSD rather than RasPiOS. The "no route to host" message rather
suggests the issue resides somewhere in the network.
The original trigger for this investigation was wanting to use ssh
to avoid need for a keyboard on the Pi2. With your help I found an accessibility aid called "onboard", using a temporary keyboard.
For immediate purposes, the problem is solved.
Thanks very much for all your help!
bob prohaska
On 15/09/2024 23:37, bp@www.zefox.net wrote:
Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> wrote:
3 - Is the Pi2 connected to the same network/router as the Pi5?The DHCP range is limited to 192.168.1.nnn, with no distinction between
wired and wireless connections. There's clearly bridging from wirless to
wired devices such as the printer, which works and can be pinged.
Unfortunately at one location I have to use an externally managed
router/AP which bridges wireless and wired networks, but not between
2.4GHz and 5GHz WiFi.
I couldn't talk to a Pi Zero which only uses 2.4GHz from the laptop
which had connected to 5GHz. I had to go via another Raspberry Pi which
was connected by Ethernet and could see devices both WiFi frequencies.
---druck
On 17/09/2024 00:58, bp@www.zefox.net wrote:
mm0fmf <none@invalid.com> wrote:
Check if your wireless settings for the router have something called "AP >>> Isolation" or very similar and if it is enabled. If it is enabled,
devices connected by WiFi will not be able to access each other. Turn it >>> off in this case.
Hmm, nothing related that I have seen. The term "access point" doesn't
appear in the manual or setup menus, nor "isolation" or anything close
to it.
It isn't clear that I've completely searched the Web interface setup
options, however. And a few topics I don't recognize. One is "Virtual
Server", described as:
Virtual Server is used to allow Internet users access to LAN services
At face value, that seems not to apply.
Another is "Special Application", described as:
Special Application is used to run applications that require multiple
connections.
But, the "special applications" list refers to games.
The firewall rules dangled an option to allow LAN-to-LAN traffic,
but when I tried to set a rule using the DHCP addresses a dialog
box saying:
Allow/Deny traffic from WAN to WAN or LAN to LAN does not support! (sic)
There's no distinction between WiFi and wired LAN that I can find.
Thanks for writing!
bob prohaska
It's possible it is always enabled. The router has been obsolete for 14 years, maybe time for a new one?
druck <news@druck.org.uk> wrote:
On 15/09/2024 23:37, bp@www.zefox.net wrote:Was there any mention of this fact in the router docs? Perhaps an explanation of why it's done? That would at least grant some mental peace....
Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> wrote:
3 - Is the Pi2 connected to the same network/router as the Pi5?The DHCP range is limited to 192.168.1.nnn, with no distinction between
wired and wireless connections. There's clearly bridging from wirless to >>> wired devices such as the printer, which works and can be pinged.
Unfortunately at one location I have to use an externally managed
router/AP which bridges wireless and wired networks, but not between
2.4GHz and 5GHz WiFi.
I couldn't talk to a Pi Zero which only uses 2.4GHz from the laptop
which had connected to 5GHz. I had to go via another Raspberry Pi which
was connected by Ethernet and could see devices both WiFi frequencies.
Thanks for writing,
bob prohaska
On 15/09/2024 23:37, bp@www.zefox.net wrote:
Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> wrote:
3 - Is the Pi2 connected to the same network/router as the Pi5?The DHCP range is limited to 192.168.1.nnn, with no distinction between
wired and wireless connections. There's clearly bridging from wirless to
wired devices such as the printer, which works and can be pinged.
Unfortunately at one location I have to use an externally managed
router/AP which bridges wireless and wired networks, but not between
2.4GHz and 5GHz WiFi.
I couldn't talk to a Pi Zero which only uses 2.4GHz from the laptop
which had connected to 5GHz. I had to go via another Raspberry Pi which
was connected by Ethernet and could see devices both WiFi frequencies.
---druck
Moral. Get a decent router so at least you can eliminate it from your >problems
In article <vcbji2$3evhe$4@dont-email.me>,
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Moral. Get a decent router so at least you can eliminate it from your
problems
Another recommendation: Look for something that can run OpenWRT, so you're not stuck with whatever firmware the router manufacturer provides.
A third recommendation: a Raspberry Pi Compute Module 4 and a carrier board that adds a second Ethernet port make a pretty good platform to run OpenWRT. The CPU and memory on the CM4 will blow the doors off of most of the routers you'd likely buy for home use, and I suspect they're competitive with nearly anything short of rack-mountable enterprise-grade routers. The onboard WiFi (on models so equipped) probably isn't so hot, but it's a solid option for wired connections up to at least gigabit speeds and WiFi can be provided
with a separate access point or a USB dongle.
That's AP Isolation at work. It stops Wifi devices communicating with
each. The idea is if you have lots of guest devices connecting, AP
Isolation stops them talking direct to each other and is meant to limit
a rogue guest device ability to do bad things to other guests.
mm0fmf <none@invalid.com> wrote:
That's AP Isolation at work. It stops Wifi devices communicating with
each. The idea is if you have lots of guest devices connecting, AP
Isolation stops them talking direct to each other and is meant to limit
a rogue guest device ability to do bad things to other guests.
The problem is solved, and I'm feeling quite stupid about the solution.
It turns out that setting a reserved DHCP address for the wireless client
MAC address un-isolates hosts on WiFi. Ssh and ping work now. Interestingly, setting a static address at the client end, by itself, does not lift the isolation. An old iMac with a static IP connected to the LAN via a WiFi- Ethernet bridge still can't be pinged but connects outbound just fine.
On reflection it makes perfect sense.....
I've played with the idea of getting an open-wrt-compatible router in the past, but dropped the idea after finding nothing suitable at the local
thrift store. Perhaps I should look again.
I've played with the idea of getting an open-wrt-compatible router in the past, but dropped the idea after finding nothing suitable at the local
thrift store. Perhaps I should look again.
On 17/09/2024 17:56, bp@www.zefox.net wrote:
The problem is solved, and I'm feeling quite stupid about the solution.
I've played with the idea of getting an open-wrt-compatible router in theAre you *that* strapped for cash?
past, but dropped the idea after finding nothing suitable at the local
thrift store. Perhaps I should look again.
Unlike many feature rich routers, the draytek has a sanely organised
user interface and the advanced features actually work...
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:
Unlike many feature rich routers, the draytek has a sanely organised
user interface and the advanced features actually work...
High praise. Which Draytek router BTW? I had one a few years ago but it
was strangely broken and I eventually had to return it and as it was out
of production I just got a refund. I went with a fairly awful Mikrotik
until I got around to building my own from a PC Engines APU2 board.
I really like how Draytek puts a simulation of their web interface
online. Nothing like seeing it yourself, even if you can't really do
anything in the simulation.
On 17/09/2024 16:08, Scott Alfter wrote:
In article <vcbji2$3evhe$4@dont-email.me>,
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Moral. Get a decent router so at least you can eliminate it from your
problems
Another recommendation: Look for something that can run OpenWRT, so you're >> not stuck with whatever firmware the router manufacturer provides.
A third recommendation: a Raspberry Pi Compute Module 4 and a carrier board >> that adds a second Ethernet port make a pretty good platform to run OpenWRT. >> The CPU and memory on the CM4 will blow the doors off of most of the routers >> you'd likely buy for home use, and I suspect they're competitive with nearly >> anything short of rack-mountable enterprise-grade routers. The onboard WiFi >> (on models so equipped) probably isn't so hot, but it's a solid option for >> wired connections up to at least gigabit speeds and WiFi can be provided
with a separate access point or a USB dongle.
Why a compute module especially?
Wouldn't e.g. a Pi4 be just as good?
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:
Unlike many feature rich routers, the draytek has a sanely organised
user interface and the advanced features actually work...
High praise. Which Draytek router BTW? I had one a few years ago but it
was strangely broken and I eventually had to return it and as it was out
of production I just got a refund. I went with a fairly awful Mikrotik
until I got around to building my own from a PC Engines APU2 board.
I really like how Draytek puts a simulation of their web interface
online. Nothing like seeing it yourself, even if you can't really do
anything in the simulation.
In article <vcca63$3je29$3@dont-email.me>,
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 17/09/2024 16:08, Scott Alfter wrote:
In article <vcbji2$3evhe$4@dont-email.me>,
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Moral. Get a decent router so at least you can eliminate it from your
problems
Another recommendation: Look for something that can run OpenWRT, so you're >>> not stuck with whatever firmware the router manufacturer provides.
A third recommendation: a Raspberry Pi Compute Module 4 and a carrier board >>> that adds a second Ethernet port make a pretty good platform to run OpenWRT.
The CPU and memory on the CM4 will blow the doors off of most of the routers
you'd likely buy for home use, and I suspect they're competitive with nearly
anything short of rack-mountable enterprise-grade routers. The onboard WiFi
(on models so equipped) probably isn't so hot, but it's a solid option for >>> wired connections up to at least gigabit speeds and WiFi can be provided >>> with a separate access point or a USB dongle.
Why a compute module especially?
Wouldn't e.g. a Pi4 be just as good?
You're stuck with USB network adapters if you use a Pi 4. With a CM4, there are carrier boards that route the built-in Ethernet to one port and connect
a second port over PCIe. This is the one I use:
https://wiki.dfrobot.com/Compute_Module_4_IoT_Router_Board_Mini_SKU_DFR0767
bp@www.zefox.net wrote:
I am using Asus routers now which, by default, run a version of OpenWrt called AsusWrt. However, even better, is asuswrt-merlin which is easy
I've played with the idea of getting an open-wrt-compatible router in the
past, but dropped the idea after finding nothing suitable at the local
thrift store. Perhaps I should look again.
to install instead of Asuswrt and gives you all sorts of customisation
if you want.
Not all Asus routers can run Asuswrt-Merlin but there's a fair number
that can and many of them are available at very reasonable prices
secondhand on eBay or from such as CEX.
The user interface GUI is really nice (though quite complex because
there is so much that can be configured).
On 18/09/2024 19:22, Scott Alfter wrote:
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:Given that few of us have internet connections over 100Mbps, that hardly >seems an issue
Why a compute module especially?
Wouldn't e.g. a Pi4 be just as good?
You're stuck with USB network adapters if you use a Pi 4. With a CM4, there >> are carrier boards that route the built-in Ethernet to one port and connect >> a second port over PCIe. This is the one I use:
Given that few of us have internet connections over 100Mbps, that hardly seems an issue
On Thu, 19 Sep 2024 07:48:01 +0100
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Given that few of us have internet connections over 100Mbps, that hardly
seems an issue
I've had gigabit FTTH for a few years now - and I'm in rural
Ireland. I use an old PC running FreeBSD as a router/firewall, I've never liked commercial routers, using a proper OS is so much easier.
On 19/09/2024 17:51, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
On Thu, 19 Sep 2024 07:48:01 +0100
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Given that few of us have internet connections over 100Mbps, that
hardly seems an issue
I've had gigabit FTTH for a few years now - and I'm in rural
Ireland. I use an old PC running FreeBSD as a router/firewall, I've
never liked commercial routers, using a proper OS is so much easier.
I picked the 'economy' package at 40/10 Mps
On Thu, 19 Sep 2024 18:44:49 +0100
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 19/09/2024 17:51, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
On Thu, 19 Sep 2024 07:48:01 +0100I picked the 'economy' package at 40/10 Mps
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Given that few of us have internet connections over 100Mbps, that
hardly seems an issue
I've had gigabit FTTH for a few years now - and I'm in rural
Ireland. I use an old PC running FreeBSD as a router/firewall, I've
never liked commercial routers, using a proper OS is so much easier.
Wow the only options on offer here are 500/50 or 1000/100 with the price increment for 1000/100 being minimal.
On Thu, 19 Sep 2024 18:44:49 +0100
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 19/09/2024 17:51, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
On Thu, 19 Sep 2024 07:48:01 +0100I picked the 'economy' package at 40/10 Mps
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Given that few of us have internet connections over 100Mbps, that
hardly seems an issue
I've had gigabit FTTH for a few years now - and I'm in rural
Ireland. I use an old PC running FreeBSD as a router/firewall, I've
never liked commercial routers, using a proper OS is so much easier.
Wow the only options on offer here are 500/50 or 1000/100 with the price increment for 1000/100 being minimal.
On 19/09/2024 19:10, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
On Thu, 19 Sep 2024 18:44:49 +0100There are plenty of midspeed packages so switching from cable/VDSL to
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 19/09/2024 17:51, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
On Thu, 19 Sep 2024 07:48:01 +0100I picked the 'economy' package at 40/10 Mps
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Given that few of us have internet connections over 100Mbps, that
hardly seems an issue
I've had gigabit FTTH for a few years now - and I'm in rural
Ireland. I use an old PC running FreeBSD as a router/firewall, I've
never liked commercial routers, using a proper OS is so much easier.
Wow the only options on offer here are 500/50 or 1000/100 with the >> price increment for 1000/100 being minimal.
fibre lets the ISPs sell you slow fibre for the same as VDSL etc.
I have a 20/130Mbps cable package. My road was fibred and the same
package was £17/month cheaper on fibre than cable. I could get moved to fibre and eventually move to 900/900Mbps. I moaned and moaned at the
cable provider (Virgin) and they price matched the cable to stop me leaving. I didn't have to change anything which suits a lazy sod like me.
There are plenty of midspeed packages so switching from cable/VDSL to
fibre lets the ISPs sell you slow fibre for the same as VDSL etc.
It won't take long until most ISPs will want to get rid of the double infrastructure VDSL/Fibre, it may happen soon that you will have to
switch to Fibre or end up with no phone/internet connectivity at all.
mm0fmf wrote:
There are plenty of midspeed packages so switching from cable/VDSL to
fibre lets the ISPs sell you slow fibre for the same as VDSL etc.
It won't take long until most ISPs will want to get rid of the double infrastructure VDSL/Fibre, it may happen soon that you will have to
switch to Fibre or end up with no phone/internet connectivity at all.
On 20/09/2024 09:16, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 19/09/2024 22:01, mm0fmf wrote:
I have a 20/130Mbps cable package. My road was fibred and theYou mean you passed up an opportunity to leave Virgin and save
same package was 17/month cheaper on fibre than cable. I could
get moved to fibre and eventually move to 900/900Mbps. I moaned
and moaned at the cable provider (Virgin) and they price
matched the cable to stop me leaving. I didn't have to change
anything which suits a lazy sod like me.
money? Everyone I know who was on Virgin cable is now on
something else.
Well now you know someone who didn't.
On 19/09/2024 22:01, mm0fmf wrote:
On 19/09/2024 19:10, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:You mean you passed up an opportunity to leave Virgin and save money? Everyone I know who was on Virgin cable is now on something else.
On Thu, 19 Sep 2024 18:44:49 +0100There are plenty of midspeed packages so switching from cable/VDSL to
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 19/09/2024 17:51, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
On Thu, 19 Sep 2024 07:48:01 +0100I picked the 'economy' package at 40/10 Mps
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Given that few of us have internet connections over 100Mbps, that
hardly seems an issue
I've had gigabit FTTH for a few years now - and I'm in rural >>>>> Ireland. I use an old PC running FreeBSD as a router/firewall, I've
never liked commercial routers, using a proper OS is so much easier. >>>>>
Wow the only options on offer here are 500/50 or 1000/100 with the >>> price increment for 1000/100 being minimal.
fibre lets the ISPs sell you slow fibre for the same as VDSL etc.
I have a 20/130Mbps cable package. My road was fibred and the same
package was £17/month cheaper on fibre than cable. I could get moved
to fibre and eventually move to 900/900Mbps. I moaned and moaned at
the cable provider (Virgin) and they price matched the cable to stop
me leaving. I didn't have to change anything which suits a lazy sod
like me.
mm0fmf wrote:I don't have a wired phone or xDSL, I have cable, DOCSIS 3 of some kind.
There are plenty of midspeed packages so switching from cable/VDSL to
fibre lets the ISPs sell you slow fibre for the same as VDSL etc.
It won't take long until most ISPs will want to get rid of the double infrastructure VDSL/Fibre, it may happen soon that you will have to
switch to Fibre or end up with no phone/internet connectivity at all.
-jw-
Fearing the same, I asked my DSL provider what the foreseeable threats
to my service might be. The answer was "squirrels".
I used Draytek routers until a year or so ago but now I'm 100% with
Asus routers running asuswrt-merlin. It's another (much better) world.
Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> writes:
I used Draytek routers until a year or so ago but now I'm 100% with
Asus routers running asuswrt-merlin. It's another (much better) world.
Is it? I haven't been too sure OpenWRT has the manpower to provide
timely security updates, I especially wondered about this around when
the LEDE project seemed to fork off. Which is why I looked elsewhere. I assume asuswrt-merlin is also a small team but don't really know.
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