• Re: Wifi status indicator

    From Chris Townley@3:770/3 to bp@www.zefox.net on Mon Jul 1 23:32:36 2024
    On 01/07/2024 19:59, bp@www.zefox.net wrote:
    Since setting up my new Pi5 some oddities have emerged with
    the WiFi, includidng seemingly slow/erratic ping times despite
    a near 100% link quality as measured with wavemon. The icon
    in the top menu bar didn't light up all the way, suggesting
    some disagreement between wavemon and the OS . At one point
    wavemon reported that rfkill had prevemted wifi startup, though
    rfkill reported both wifi and bluetooth unblocked. There was
    one report online of a bookworm bug along this line, does it
    aply to RasPiOS?

    Between the two, I'm rather confused. Over the past year or
    two wifi has gotten worse,I thought because of interference
    from neighbors, who now number close to 20. But, during a scan
    wavemon consistently reports my access point as the strongest
    signal. Is "strongest signal" not sufficient by itself?

    Thanks for reading,

    bob prohaska


    Check the channels they are using - then choose something else

    --
    Chris

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From bp@www.zefox.net@3:770/3 to Chris Townley on Tue Jul 2 02:13:50 2024
    Chris Townley <news@cct-net.co.uk> wrote:
    Between the two, I'm rather confused. Over the past year or
    two wifi has gotten worse,I thought because of interference
    from neighbors, who now number close to 20. But, during a scan
    wavemon consistently reports my access point as the strongest
    signal. Is "strongest signal" not sufficient by itself?

    Thanks for reading,

    bob prohaska


    Check the channels they are using - then choose something else

    Wavemon scan reports in part
    :DD:8D 63%, -66 dBm, ch 6, 2437 MHz 1 sta, 28% c
    hGiants Guest 22:FD:13:14:DD:8E 63%, -66 dBm, ch 6, 2437 MHz 28% chan, Ra
    dmillerhome2 F0:72:EA:49:C6:4A 63%, -66 dBm, ch 6, 2437 MHz ESS, Radio M
    eATT5Zavd8s 08:9B:B9:01:B7:14 60%, -68 dBm, ch 6, 2437 MHz 9 sta, 58% c
    hd-link.zefox.net 00:13:46:86:6D:0C 84%, -51 dBm, ch 2, 2417 MHz ESS │

    I'm on channel 2 and seemingly have it to myself.

    Experiments using a metal mixing bowl about 12 inches across allowed me
    to increase the received signal to -40 dBm and "signal quality" to 70/70.
    For a while the wifi performance seemed to improve. Next morning the signal was still as high, but there were periods of slow response and complete dropouts
    when the link went away entirely. Eventually I got rid of the reflector and things
    went back to normal. That was when wavemon reported that rfkill wouldn't allow wlan0
    to start. Could I have been overloading the tranciever?

    Thanks for writing,

    bob prohaska

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to bp@www.zefox.net on Tue Jul 2 10:21:20 2024
    On 01/07/2024 19:59, bp@www.zefox.net wrote:
    during a scan
    wavemon consistently reports my access point as the strongest
    signal. Is "strongest signal" not sufficient by itself?

    No.

    WiFi smears itself over a wide spectrum and all other wifis appear as
    'in band noise' to a greater or lesser extent.

    Since data packets are I think cryptographically signed and checksummed,
    the chances of a given packet getting corrupted and needing a retransmit
    goes up as the number of adjacent stations does.

    Similar to mobile cells.

    --
    “Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.”

    H.L. Mencken, A Mencken Chrestomathy

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Chris Townley on Tue Jul 2 10:21:46 2024
    On 01/07/2024 23:32, Chris Townley wrote:
    On 01/07/2024 19:59, bp@www.zefox.net wrote:
    Since setting up my new Pi5 some oddities have emerged with
    the WiFi, includidng seemingly slow/erratic ping times despite
    a near 100% link quality as measured with wavemon. The icon
    in the top menu bar didn't light up all the way, suggesting
    some disagreement between wavemon and the OS . At one point
    wavemon reported that rfkill had prevemted wifi startup, though
    rfkill reported both wifi and bluetooth unblocked. There was
    one report online of a bookworm bug along this line, does it
    aply to RasPiOS?

    Between the two, I'm rather confused. Over the past year or
    two wifi has gotten worse,I thought because of interference
    from neighbors, who now number close to 20. But, during a scan
    wavemon consistently reports my access point as the strongest
    signal. Is "strongest signal" not sufficient by itself?

    Thanks for reading,

    bob prohaska


    Check the channels they are using - then choose something else

    Helps but does not totally cure

    --
    In todays liberal progressive conflict-free education system, everyone
    gets full Marx.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Chris Townley@3:770/3 to All on Tue Jul 2 16:11:46 2024
    On 02/07/2024 15:50, candycanearter07 wrote:
    Chris Townley <news@cct-net.co.uk> wrote at 22:32 this Monday (GMT):
    On 01/07/2024 19:59, bp@www.zefox.net wrote:
    Since setting up my new Pi5 some oddities have emerged with
    the WiFi, includidng seemingly slow/erratic ping times despite
    a near 100% link quality as measured with wavemon. The icon
    in the top menu bar didn't light up all the way, suggesting
    some disagreement between wavemon and the OS . At one point
    wavemon reported that rfkill had prevemted wifi startup, though
    rfkill reported both wifi and bluetooth unblocked. There was
    one report online of a bookworm bug along this line, does it
    aply to RasPiOS?

    Between the two, I'm rather confused. Over the past year or
    two wifi has gotten worse,I thought because of interference
    from neighbors, who now number close to 20. But, during a scan
    wavemon consistently reports my access point as the strongest
    signal. Is "strongest signal" not sufficient by itself?

    Thanks for reading,

    bob prohaska


    Check the channels they are using - then choose something else


    Don't wifi connections change which channels they use frequently? Unless
    you control all the nearby routers, I don't think it would help a ton..

    Good routers monitor nearby signals, and will change channel to avoid conflicts. With some you can override this

    --
    Chris

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From candycanearter07@3:770/3 to Chris Townley on Tue Jul 2 14:50:08 2024
    Chris Townley <news@cct-net.co.uk> wrote at 22:32 this Monday (GMT):
    On 01/07/2024 19:59, bp@www.zefox.net wrote:
    Since setting up my new Pi5 some oddities have emerged with
    the WiFi, includidng seemingly slow/erratic ping times despite
    a near 100% link quality as measured with wavemon. The icon
    in the top menu bar didn't light up all the way, suggesting
    some disagreement between wavemon and the OS . At one point
    wavemon reported that rfkill had prevemted wifi startup, though
    rfkill reported both wifi and bluetooth unblocked. There was
    one report online of a bookworm bug along this line, does it
    aply to RasPiOS?

    Between the two, I'm rather confused. Over the past year or
    two wifi has gotten worse,I thought because of interference
    from neighbors, who now number close to 20. But, during a scan
    wavemon consistently reports my access point as the strongest
    signal. Is "strongest signal" not sufficient by itself?

    Thanks for reading,

    bob prohaska


    Check the channels they are using - then choose something else


    Don't wifi connections change which channels they use frequently? Unless
    you control all the nearby routers, I don't think it would help a ton..
    --
    user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to All on Tue Jul 2 20:55:52 2024
    On 02/07/2024 15:50, candycanearter07 wrote:


    Don't wifi connections change which channels they use frequently? Unless
    you control all the nearby routers, I don't think it would help a ton..

    No. They dont. You assign a (centre) channel to a wifi station. I t
    spreads a lot either side, but the centre is the centre


    --
    Any fool can believe in principles - and most of them do!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Chris Townley on Tue Jul 2 21:06:38 2024
    On 02/07/2024 16:11, Chris Townley wrote:
    Good routers monitor nearby signals, and will change channel to avoid conflicts. With some you can override this

    Ive never ever found a router that does that.
    And my router us VERY good

    --
    "When one man dies it's a tragedy. When thousands die it's statistics."

    Josef Stalin

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From druck@3:770/3 to Chris Townley on Tue Jul 2 21:36:30 2024
    On 02/07/2024 16:11, Chris Townley wrote:
    Good routers monitor nearby signals, and will change channel to avoid conflicts. With some you can override this

    That doesn't work well, the router may detect a competing signal and
    change to channel which looks better where it is, but your clients some distance away may suffer more interference on this new channel as they
    are closer to another access point. Also if several nearby routers are
    using this technique you may find your channel frequently, and
    performance varying greatly day to day.

    Because 5GHz doesn't travel as far, especially through walls, it's
    easier. Generally everyone will be using the default setup of an 80Mhz
    wide channel at 36, so pick 54 instead. If that's also use check which
    other non overlapping channels are valid in your location (varies due to interference with radar).

    2.4GHz tricker as it is pretty saturated every where outside the back of beyond, but the rule is to stick to the non overlapping 20MHz wide
    channels at 1,6 and 11. Any use of the other channels will cause far
    worse interference, so steer clear of that.

    To pick the best one of the three, check the signal strength of
    competing networks, not at the router, but where your clients are
    located as that makes more of a difference. Use the channel with the
    weakest competing signals. On Linux iwconfig will show the signal
    strength and link quality of the connected access point, and iwlist scan
    will display information on all the access points it can see.

    ---druck

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to druck on Wed Jul 3 10:34:10 2024
    On 02/07/2024 21:36, druck wrote:
    .4GHz tricker as it is pretty saturated every where outside the back of beyond, but the rule is to stick to the non overlapping 20MHz wide
    channels at 1,6 and 11. Any use of the other channels will cause far
    worse interference, so steer clear of that.

    To pick the best one of the three, check the signal strength of
    competing networks, not at the router, but where your clients are
    located as that makes more of a difference. Use the channel with the
    weakest competing signals. On Linux iwconfig will show the signal
    strength and link quality of the connected access point, and iwlist scan
    will display information on all the access points it can see.

    Foe at least android phones there is a free app called wifi analyser or something which shows/lists channel spectrums on at least 2.4GHz.

    --
    “It is not the truth of Marxism that explains the willingness of intellectuals to believe it, but the power that it confers on
    intellectuals, in their attempts to control the world. And since...it is
    futile to reason someone out of a thing that he was not reasoned into,
    we can conclude that Marxism owes its remarkable power to survive every criticism to the fact that it is not a truth-directed but a
    power-directed system of thought.”
    Sir Roger Scruton

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Andy Burns@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Wed Jul 3 10:54:04 2024
    The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    Foe at least android phones there is a free app called wifi analyser or something which shows/lists channel spectrums on at least 2.4GHz.

    I now use this one (no adverts and open source)

    <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.vrem.wifianalyzer>

    instead of the farproc one

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From candycanearter07@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Wed Jul 3 14:40:02 2024
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote at 19:55 this Tuesday (GMT):
    On 02/07/2024 15:50, candycanearter07 wrote:


    Don't wifi connections change which channels they use frequently? Unless
    you control all the nearby routers, I don't think it would help a ton..

    No. They dont. You assign a (centre) channel to a wifi station. I t
    spreads a lot either side, but the centre is the centre


    Weird, maybe it was just the corporate wifi that did that..
    --
    user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to All on Wed Jul 3 15:41:56 2024
    On 03/07/2024 15:40, candycanearter07 wrote:
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote at 19:55 this Tuesday (GMT):
    On 02/07/2024 15:50, candycanearter07 wrote:


    Don't wifi connections change which channels they use frequently? Unless >>> you control all the nearby routers, I don't think it would help a ton..

    No. They dont. You assign a (centre) channel to a wifi station. I t
    spreads a lot either side, but the centre is the centre


    Weird, maybe it was just the corporate wifi that did that..
    Now THAT I can believe. Having sat in a hospital with over 40 different
    WIFI points all with different SSIDS...spread fairly evenly over the spectrum...
    I cant see NHS staff doing any setup and contractors probly send in a PFY.


    --
    “It is hard to imagine a more stupid decision or more dangerous way of
    making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people
    who pay no price for being wrong.”

    Thomas Sowell

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From druck@3:770/3 to All on Wed Jul 3 21:19:44 2024
    On 03/07/2024 15:40, candycanearter07 wrote:
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote at 19:55 this Tuesday (GMT):
    On 02/07/2024 15:50, candycanearter07 wrote:


    Don't wifi connections change which channels they use frequently? Unless >>> you control all the nearby routers, I don't think it would help a ton..

    No. They dont. You assign a (centre) channel to a wifi station. I t
    spreads a lot either side, but the centre is the centre


    Weird, maybe it was just the corporate wifi that did that..

    Both corporate and some consumer access points offer automatic channel selection, where it will pick a channel which appears to have less interference.

    As I point out in my other post, it doesn't always make the best choices
    for clients, and if other APs also do it, you get a never ending game of
    WiFi musical chairs.

    ---druck

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From druck@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Wed Jul 3 21:13:42 2024
    On 03/07/2024 10:34, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    Foe at least android phones there is a free app called wifi analyser or something which shows/lists channel spectrums on at least 2.4GHz.

    A great app, I've used it a lot.

    Unfortunately a recent Android update has throttled the amount of
    scanning an app can do, so if you try to leave it running and wander
    around the house to measure signal strength, you find it stops after a
    few seconds and needs restarting. It's not just that app, but the
    alternatives too.

    ---druck

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Pancho@3:770/3 to druck on Wed Jul 3 23:10:58 2024
    On 03/07/2024 21:13, druck wrote:
    On 03/07/2024 10:34, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    Foe at least android phones there is a free app called wifi analyser
    or something which shows/lists channel spectrums on at least 2.4GHz.

    A great app, I've used it a lot.

    Unfortunately a recent Android update has throttled the amount of
    scanning an app can do, so if you try to leave it running and wander
    around the house to measure signal strength, you find it stops after a
    few seconds and needs restarting. It's not just that app, but the alternatives too.

    ---druck

    You can turn scan throttling off, by going into developer mode.

    <https://www.wifianalyzer.info/?s=wi-fi-throttling>

    I just tested it on android 14. It said it worked in Wifi Analyzer. I'm
    not sure how much it improved scanning.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From druck@3:770/3 to Pancho on Fri Jul 5 12:15:02 2024
    On 03/07/2024 23:10, Pancho wrote:
    On 03/07/2024 21:13, druck wrote:
    Unfortunately a recent Android update has throttled the amount of>>
    scanning an app can do

    You can turn scan throttling off, by going into developer mode. <https://www.wifianalyzer.info/?s=wi-fi-throttling> I just tested it
    on android 14. It said it worked in Wifi Analyzer.>> I'm not sure how
    much it improved scanning.

    Thanks, I'd been meaning to find that setting an turn it off.

    ---druck

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Joe@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Fri Jul 5 12:32:10 2024
    On Tue, 2 Jul 2024 21:06:38 +0100, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 02/07/2024 16:11, Chris Townley wrote:
    Good routers monitor nearby signals, and will change channel to avoid
    conflicts. With some you can override this

    Ive never ever found a router that does that.
    And my router us VERY good

    Automatic channel setting with the option to overrule. Mine has it, I've switched it off as it forces connected devices to also
    dynamically switch channels. So: Pick the "cleanest" channel at your router and make it fixed. Do the same for possible
    accesspoint (best is "the same" channel to allow seamless takeover).

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Joe on Fri Jul 5 14:51:54 2024
    On 05/07/2024 13:32, Joe wrote:
    On Tue, 2 Jul 2024 21:06:38 +0100, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 02/07/2024 16:11, Chris Townley wrote:
    Good routers monitor nearby signals, and will change channel to avoid
    conflicts. With some you can override this

    Ive never ever found a router that does that.
    And my router us VERY good

    Automatic channel setting with the option to overrule. Mine has it, I've switched it off as it forces connected devices to also
    dynamically switch channels. So: Pick the "cleanest" channel at your router and make it fixed. Do the same for possible
    accesspoint (best is "the same" channel to allow seamless takeover).

    My router has an 'auto' setting for channel. Is that it? Why would
    anyine use it?

    --
    "An intellectual is a person knowledgeable in one field who speaks out
    only in others...”

    Tom Wolfe

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Joe@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Sat Jul 6 11:44:16 2024
    On Fri, 5 Jul 2024 14:51:55 +0100, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 05/07/2024 13:32, Joe wrote:
    On Tue, 2 Jul 2024 21:06:38 +0100, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 02/07/2024 16:11, Chris Townley wrote:
    Good routers monitor nearby signals, and will change channel to avoid
    conflicts. With some you can override this

    Ive never ever found a router that does that.
    And my router us VERY good

    Automatic channel setting with the option to overrule. Mine has it, I've switched it off as it forces connected devices to also
    dynamically switch channels. So: Pick the "cleanest" channel at your router and make it fixed. Do the same for possible
    accesspoint (best is "the same" channel to allow seamless takeover).

    My router has an 'auto' setting for channel. Is that it? Why would
    anyine use it?
    Yes, why? Only if your neighbours use it ;-) Find a quiet (the quietest) channel and set that. Also - if you don't need the extra
    speed, limit bandwidth (adjacent channel usage). And on 5GHz, avoid channels in the radar band.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Joe on Sat Jul 6 13:17:16 2024
    On 06/07/2024 12:44, Joe wrote:
    On Fri, 5 Jul 2024 14:51:55 +0100, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 05/07/2024 13:32, Joe wrote:
    On Tue, 2 Jul 2024 21:06:38 +0100, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 02/07/2024 16:11, Chris Townley wrote:
    Good routers monitor nearby signals, and will change channel to avoid >>>>> conflicts. With some you can override this

    Ive never ever found a router that does that.
    And my router us VERY good

    Automatic channel setting with the option to overrule. Mine has it, I've switched it off as it forces connected devices to also
    dynamically switch channels. So: Pick the "cleanest" channel at your router and make it fixed. Do the same for possible
    accesspoint (best is "the same" channel to allow seamless takeover).

    My router has an 'auto' setting for channel. Is that it? Why would
    anyine use it?
    Yes, why? Only if your neighbours use it ;-) Find a quiet (the quietest) channel and set that. Also - if you don't need the extra
    speed, limit bandwidth (adjacent channel usage). And on 5GHz, avoid channels in the radar band.

    Well I have no neighbours.
    Not within WiFi range anyway.


    --
    Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the
    gospel of envy.

    Its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.

    Winston Churchill

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Mike Scott@3:770/3 to Joe on Sat Jul 6 20:46:48 2024
    On 06/07/2024 12:44, Joe wrote:
    And on 5GHz, avoid channels in the radar band.

    Which, given Stansted's proximity, means just a couple of channels here.
    5GHz systems detect radar and avoid those channels. Useless.

    --
    Mike Scott
    Harlow, England

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From candycanearter07@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Sun Jul 7 14:10:02 2024
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote at 14:41 this Wednesday (GMT):
    On 03/07/2024 15:40, candycanearter07 wrote:
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote at 19:55 this Tuesday (GMT):
    On 02/07/2024 15:50, candycanearter07 wrote:


    Don't wifi connections change which channels they use frequently? Unless >>>> you control all the nearby routers, I don't think it would help a ton.. >>>
    No. They dont. You assign a (centre) channel to a wifi station. I t
    spreads a lot either side, but the centre is the centre


    Weird, maybe it was just the corporate wifi that did that..
    Now THAT I can believe. Having sat in a hospital with over 40 different
    WIFI points all with different SSIDS...spread fairly evenly over the spectrum...
    I cant see NHS staff doing any setup and contractors probly send in a PFY.


    Yeah sorry, I never thought to look at it on my home wifi. It's stayed
    on channel 2 for a while.
    --
    user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From druck@3:770/3 to All on Mon Aug 5 13:26:28 2024
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    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)