On 09 Sep 2024, Reverend Shaft said the following...

It's called Parenting. Children learn what is acceptable fro
parents.

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At my school, the administration would have freaked out about it, even if they were for hunting and didn't enter the building.

I grew up in an incredibly rural area, as did my dad. (We're talking towns
that are the county seat and still have a whopping 8,000 residents.) This would have definitely drawn some negative attention here, too.

This is a real names echo, BTW. Thanks.

Noted and fixed. My apologies and appreciation for the heads up.

(It's been a LONG time since I've run a Fido board.)

RS

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That's certainly part of the problem. I had the exact same reaction. But father had an obligation there, too. All the parents in these situations Again, these are complex dynamics.

He does indeed, especially in this case. If he'd not been warned by
local authorities that his son was making threats, I might not feel so harshly towards him. But the fact of the matter is he was warned and bought the kid a(nother) weapon anyway. That is negligent.

In other situations, the FBI did nothing and let something happen. In this instance, they informed local authorities who took the kid's word over the FBI evidence. I feel like the FBI did their part of the job,
for once.

I'm still a bit miffed that proponents of indivisualism, local government, and parental rights are seem to be the first to blame the central government authority for not doing their jobs. Surely someone in the house or town knows better about what's going on than a Fed does. A generalization, I know, but from my vantage point, it tracks.

There is plenty of that to go around in this echo, from all sides, unfortunately.

It's nothing new, and certainly not limited to this echo. :)

Rights and Freedom come with Responsibility, no doubt. I am amazed, at times, how many people don't understand that.

This line deserves more attention.

RS

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My thoughts exactly... What I thought about you telling me about armchair quarterbacking... I got ready to hear your armchair quarterbacking on the topic. BTW, what you did is called objecting through projection. You projected onto me exactly what you accused me of doing... You armchair quarterback you...

I genuinely wanted to reply with, "No, you're right. My bad." But I don't recall saying anything that could be taken that way. The crux was, "Hey, we're simplifying this stuff too much, and it deserves a closer look or more understanding of the complexity."

I'm having a tough time seeing how that qualifies as armchar quarterbacking (or whatever similar turn of phrase you want to use here).

I'll add this: my statement was not directed at you specifically, and for that, I do apologize. Your post just happened to be the one I replied to that generated the sentiment that this was a simple issue. So there wasn't a direct accusation intended.

I have no idea who Alan is, and I don't understand the "starting to

He'll introduce himself soon enough...

I can't wait. :)

I said I was suspicious about the government looking to find fault... I'm perfectly okay with finding fault... I just need time to review and
think on things.

I do believe the government needs to do more...

Why? I thought we were trying to minimize government involvement in things like family affairs and mental health.

And all I said is this... If we're going to find daddy responsible lets find the agencies also...

Again, why? This was a local issue. The father, the school system, and the city/county authorities should be the ones involved here. I know that the FBI is all over the place, but that's sort of the problem. This wasn't a national threat and didn't cross state lines, so I'm having a hard time seeing why their involvement and resulting culpability is such a sticking point.

RS

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Traditional values are all the rage in Russia, with at least 17
Britons and 2 Americans having relocated there due to immigration
reform in that country making it possible for them to relocate.

This made me snort my soda out my nose. Thank you.

It is easy access to guns. And type of guns used. On the second
school day of the year, a shooting occurred in Georgia, killing four people - two adults and two children. The shooter surrendered, and
was charged as an adult - at age 14. How many more unnecessary
killings have to happen before this pandemic is brought to an end? Children killing children (and adults) for sport. WE LOVE OUR GUNS!

We love our guns. Doesn't matter who kills who. Or how many folks
get killed. Guns are a sacred right. According to the 2nd Amendment.
Bang Bang Your Dead I Never Pulled The Trigger Alec Baldwin ...

I 100% get your point... My position on this doesn't align real with "taking sides" though.

I do believe in the _purpose_ of the Second Amendment. I don't believe it was instituted to allow me to carry an arsenal into McDonald's in the off chance I'd get to mow down someone else with an assault rifle trying to steal a bag of fries, though.

The point was to keep the government in check. To remind those holding positions of power that this is OUR government, and you can't run away with it and subjugate us.

To that end, whatever weaponry the government has, we should also have. Unfortunately, the forefathers didn't have a crystal ball and couldn't have ever imagined the kind of destructive power mankind would later invent.

By the Second Amendment, I should be building missile silos between my tank garages. This isn't hyperbole. I'm not joking at all when I say we really should have been doing just that. The goverment lost respect for the citizenry long, long ago.

And to THAT end, the Second Amendment has lost its relevance. We gave it away. We continue to do it more disservice by bickering amongst ourselves about which specific gun, stock, magazine, or attachment should be legal and which we're willing to part ways with.

To think that a citizen-led militia stands a chance today is beyond delusion. So the options are to either fix the root of the problem (and I'm not about to go there), or to make society a safer place to exist. The rest of the free world seems to have figured that part out. I'm flummoxed as to why we can't.

Man, I'm really sorry... My soapbox is creaking under my weight.

RS

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Randall Schad -> Lee Lofaso skrev 2024-09-10 05:25:

To think that a citizen-led militia stands a chance today is beyond delusion.

Well, after all, this 14-year-old kid in Georgia must have been a member of "A well-regulated militia" because that's what the 2nd clearly states, no?

So the options are to either fix the root of the problem

President Bill Clinton did just that. Unfortunately, it was just a "sunset" fix that expired in 2004, and for some strange reason, GWB didn't want to reenact the law.

The result can be seen, crystal clear, in the stats after that:

https://felten.se/MSUS.svg

In other words a simple, straightforward fix if only you take away the NRA bribes from the lawmakers.



--

There will come a day when we have to answer for all our wrongs. Make sure you know the difference between right and wrong.

..

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Randall Schad -> IB Joe skrev 2024-09-10 05:10:

He'll introduce himself soon enough...

I can't wait. :)

I'm afraid that he seems to have given up the attempts to try to educate the brainwashed MAGA cult members here. Like so many others before him. Only the cesspool remains.

After all, Alan was from Canada, so he had no idea about anything US-related; only those who live in the US know it all.

I already miss him.



--

There will come a day when we have to answer for all our wrongs. Make sure you know the difference between right and wrong.

..

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IB Joe wrote to Dr. What <=-

I suspect that he's a Democrat,

One of the things that I've noticed over the years is that people who are Democrats tend to be people who basically want something for free "from the gov't" - not understanding that the gov't creates nothing and that what they want will be taken by force from their neighbor.

These shooters tend to be losers, so they can't make it on their own. So they like the Democrats because of the hand outs they promise.

gay or trans-gender... Kamala supporter... or something along that line...

Most likely trans because they are mentally ill, like all trans people. And only the mentally ill would be a Kamala supporter.

BECAUSE if it were
different there'd be all kinds of stuff on the news already. We'd see interviews with his grade 2 teacher and everyone chiming in on how he
was a Trump supporter.

You got that right. It's amazing how they create all of this and they think that none of us can see right through it.

Things always get quiet when the real news is contrary to the
narrative.

Yup. Still haven't heard much about the Trump would-be assassin, have we?


... Every silver lining has a cloud around it.
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Aaron Thomas wrote to Dr. What <=-

Right, but there's a slight advantage to having a moderate RINO instead
of a regular Democrat. These RINOs like to get re-elected, and they
can't do it if they completely repulse their voters (like Liz Cheney
did.)

The problem is that's his purpose.

They are, effectively, moles. They quietly side step some issues. They vote for the stuff we want, but only if there's already an Elitist majority - so their vote is meaningless. But when the Elitists need a swing vote, he's right there for them.

And if the Elitists need someone to look the other way, he's more than happy.

Ya, his Democrat opponent is way worse, but, then, he's supposed to be. The Elitists don't want their mole to be voted out.


... If corn oil comes from corn, where does baby oil . . .
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This is a real names echo, BTW. Thanks.

Noted and fixed. My apologies and appreciation for the heads up.

(It's been a LONG time since I've run a Fido board.)

I noticed you asked in another (sysop) echo and didn't get much help as to
how to tell the difference between real names vs. allows aliases echoes.

There are a couple of FIDO file echoes -- BACKBONE and ECHOLIST -- that
might be of assistance. One, or both, are where you can get the latest
echo list packet. The ELIST file usually arrives once a month -- sometimes more often -- and the most recent one I received is dated 9/1/2024. It includes a packet where the rules of all of the moderated echoes are kept.

The ELIST echo is also a good place to ask questions regarding where to get
the list. The keeper of the ELIST usually answers questions there.

Mike


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I'm still a bit miffed that proponents of indivisualism, local government, and
parental rights are seem to be the first to blame the central government authority for not doing their jobs. Surely someone in the house or town knows better about what's going on than a Fed does. A generalization, I know, but from my vantage point, it tracks.

Overall, I agree. There have been instances where the FBI "knew of" a
suspect before they did something and apparently didn't notify the locals.
You would think they would also be "known of" by the locals but, in larger areas, you'd might be surprised how easy it is to be ignored.

Rights and Freedom come with Responsibility, no doubt. I am amazed, at times, how many people don't understand that.

This line deserves more attention.

They used to teach us this when the discussions of rights and freedoms came
up in school. My parents also taught me that. Boy Scouts used to teach
that also.

I am not sure what schools or scouts teach these days.


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Who parented the generations that fly rainbow flags? Was that your generation?
Where DID they learn that kind of crap from?

I often ask that question and can answer that at least some members of my generation (X) raised them as I know the parents. Seems like everyone my
age, if they have multiple kids, has at least one that is supposedly
"gender dysphoric" or cross-dresses or has some other social issues. These
are what I'd call "city kids." The ones raised in the country don't seem to follow this pattern.

Probably a good deal of them were raised by parents that are my age. Could be some of the older ones were raised by the generation before mine.

Based on some of the other odd things that today's youth are triggered by... thumbs up, the phrase "OK," ending a text with a period... I'd say my generation raised a bunch of mentally messed-up, easily-offended kids.

Don't you need to know what my views are before you can argue against me?

Yes.


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Well, after all, this 14-year-old kid in Georgia must have been a member of "A well-regulated militia" because that's what the 2nd clearly states, no?

Let's not get too literal. We're infringing on territory that doesn't belong to us. :)

President Bill Clinton did just that. Unfortunately, it was just a
The result can be seen, crystal clear, in the stats after that:

https://felten.se/MSUS.svg

Honestly, I'm not sure I'd hang my hat on that one. The Reagan administration was doing a pretty darn good job of keeping all these mass shootings at bay back in the '80s. *cough*

That aside, I'd be fully on board with banning the entire congressional lobby institution, as well as putting a lock on that revolving door problem.

RS

... "Road work ahead" ... I sure hope it does!

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I noticed you asked in another (sysop) echo and didn't get much help as
to how to tell the difference between real names vs. allows aliases echoes.

There are a couple of FIDO file echoes -- BACKBONE and ECHOLIST -- that might be of assistance. One, or both, are where you can get the latest echo list packet. The ELIST file usually arrives once a month --

Hey, thanks a ton for that, Mike. Certainly the most thorough of the responses I've received on that.

I'll have to go back and review. I remember looking through .. uhh ... something (as useful as that is) and had names and descriptions but no high level rules. Will take a closer look over the weekend.

Thanks again.

RS

... Every plastic toy dinosaur is made from real dinosaurs.

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https://felten.se/MSUS.svg

Honestly, I'm not sure I'd hang my hat on that one. The Reagan administration was doing a pretty darn good job of keeping all these
mass shootings at bay back in the '80s. *cough*

That aside, I'd be fully on board with banning the entire congressional lobby institution, as well as putting a lock on that revolving door problem.

Would you get on board with banning the entire congressional institution itself? What good are they? They are on an honor system where they supposedly represent the people in their districts, but here we are getting irritated with their adherence to the whims of lobbyists.

The Capitol building should be turned into a museum to show tourists what it was like back in the old days when members of congress were trusted by the sheeple.

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That aside, I'd be fully on board with banning the entire congression lobby institution, as well as putting a lock on that revolving door problem.

Would you get on board with banning the entire congressional institution itself? What good are they? They are on an honor system where they supposedly represent the people in their districts, but here we are getting irritated with their adherence to the whims of lobbyists.

In my mind, the congressional idea is still a sound one. The general public doesn't have the time or resources to allow governance to be a full time task. (The shortcomings there can be in many forms -- being unduly swayed by the media, not having the legal or historical context that benefits a decision maker, etc.)

The system we use to put people in those seats, however... That demands a complete overhaul. I kind of like the lottery idea with a one term limit. Something akin to voluntary jury duty. (Hey, it can't be any worse than the present state.)

RS

... I thought getting old would take longer.

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I didn't quote anything...

I have trepidations about charging the/a parent.

I do recall saying to someone going down this rabbit hole that all the facts are in.

So... if the investigators of this crime have unearthed text messages or something like that... Where daddy says to his son... The gun I bought you is under my bed and there is 3 or 4 loaded magazines in the nightstand... go to school and shoot them MF'ers up for being bullies.

I'd see the point of charges being laid.

If the son entered a room where he knew the guns were and took the one that was meant for hunting and he, without his father knowledge or permission, took that gun and shot up the school... I think the murder charges lay at the son's feet.

I have mentioned that I am a dual citizen of Canada and the US... In Canada there are well known laws about gun storage... They have to be locked up period. In Florida at least... I know of no "law" about how to store a gun. There are some things you have to do if you are driving with one in your car. I have a carry permit so I just have mine on my hip anyway.

All I'm saying is this... To press 2nd degree murder charges on a parent... as stupid as this one maybe... MAY BE an over reach.... Never mind... just looked it up...

2nd degree murder charges in the US can stem from "Extreme recklessness".

Prosecutor will/may argue that the father should have locked up all the guns in the house knowing his son's challenges and past.

So... I still worry about the presidents charging people for other people's crimes.

You kid goes out and does criminal acts and you get charged because you missed some support payments.

If grandpa thinks his son should get the death penalty... so be it.

IB Joe, Pronouns (FJB/LGB)
AKA Joe Schweier
SysOp of 4A 6F 65 73 42 42 53
-=JoesBBS.com=-

... There are three kinds of people: Those who can count, and those who can't

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The system we use to put people in those seats, however... That demands a complete overhaul. I kind of like the lottery idea with a one term limit. Something akin to voluntary jury duty. (Hey, it can't be any worse than the present state.)

I agree that it needs an overhaul. A lottery system with a single term sounds better than what we have now. Now, committee chairs make the recruitment decisions, and that's bad because 1) they make bad decisions, and 2) there's some sort of elite alliance that gets candidate names on the recruiters' desks. Lastly, 3) primaries are rare. We haven't had one (for US Rep) in my region for a very long time. Not the Republicans nor the Democrats.

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I didn't quote anything...

I think I put the pieces together from previous messages...

I have trepidations about charging the/a parent.
[...]
All I'm saying is this... To press 2nd degree murder charges on a parent... as stupid as this one maybe... MAY BE an over reach....

I had the same thought initially, but once it came to light that there had been previous investigation on the issue, I'd agree that this falls under negligence and opens the door for whatever the prosecutor sees fit.

You kid goes out and does criminal acts and you get charged because you missed some support payments.

Right, wrong, or indifferent, that kind of overreach happens already all over the place, but I see it more on the civil side of things. Attaching an absent parent's insurance and assets to a claim for free money, things like that.

I'm honestly not sure what to think about that. I can see a maze of scenarios where someone should/shouldn't be held liable, and I already have a headache. :)

RS

... My life's an open book, but it's poorly written and I die in the end.

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I agree that it needs an overhaul. A lottery system with a single term sounds better than what we have now. Now, committee chairs make the recruitment decisions, and that's bad because 1) they make bad
decisions, and 2) there's some sort of elite alliance that gets
candidate names on the recruiters' desks. Lastly, 3) primaries are rare. We haven't had one (for US Rep) in my region for a very long time. Not
the Republicans nor the Democrats.

I'm with you on those first two points.

The third... That brings us to an intersection where the current party system should take a long walk off a short cliff, too.

Ah, good ol' fantasy land...

RS

... The secret of getting ahead is mastering the guillotine.

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I'm afraid that he seems to have given up the attempts to try to educate the brainwashed MAGA cult members here. Like so many others
before him. Only the cesspool remains.

What's wrong with MAGA - Make America Great Again.
Even Clinton used the phrase.
I have been suggesting from early on that Biden's Presidency was going be a disaster. I was told "Just give him a chance." Look what it got us.
Turns out that I was right then, just as I am right now.
They told us that Biden was strong, vital, hard to keep up with. All a lie. They said it was Conservative news organizations making cheap fakes
showing only bad moments to embarrass President Biden.
Nope. As it turned out it was Biden being Biden.

After all, Alan was from Canada, so he had no idea about anything US-related; only those who live in the US know it all.

Alan would deny things that were from verifiable sources at ANY website on the Internet. It was annoying, when we all see the same blue sky and he calls it pink, and then would goto into all kinds of irrational reasons why, not to mention using his twisted Liberal logic as to why he was right and all of us were wrong.

If my patriotism upsets maybe you also, should pull the plug.

.÷______ ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿ ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿ ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿ ÉÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ» ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿
_[]_³³Äij³ ³ FIGHT!³ ³ FIGHT!³ ³ FIGHT! ³ ºT R U M Pº ³Another Message³
{ NET 267 ³ ³TROY,NY³ ³HUB 800³ ³1:267/150³ º 2 0 2 4 º ³ by Gregory ³
/ 00ÄÄÄÄ00'Ù¨À00ÄÄÄ00Ù¨À00ÄÄ00ÄÙ¨ÀÄ00ÄÄÄ00ÄÙ¨ÈÍ00ÍÍÍ00ͼ¨ÀÄÄÄ00ÄÄÄÄÄÄ00ÄÄÙ

... I always said you was Yellow.

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Alan would deny things that were from verifiable sources at ANY website
on the Internet. It was annoying, when we all see the same blue sky and
he calls it pink, and then would goto into all kinds of irrational

It's funny because when I'm right about something, I like to rub it in peoples' faces a bit. "I was right, I was right, I'm right."

But when Alan is wrong about something, he likes to rub that in peoples' faces. It's bizarre, it's funny, and I think he does it for our entertainment.

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Hello Mike,

[..]

This is a real names echo, BTW. Thanks.

You're a dick.

For Life,
Lee

--
The first thing a cult does is claim that everyone else is lying to you.

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Would you get on board with banning the entire congressional institution itself? What good are they? They are on an honor system where they supposedly represent the people in their districts, but here we are getting irritated wit
their adherence to the whims of lobbyists.

It is better than the alternative... a dictator.

For many years, it was the marxists in the Democrat party who would have
wanted something like this. I am a little concerned to see others
suggesting it.


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I have trepidations about charging the/a parent.

Charging parents when a minor commits a crime, even if the minor is charged
as an adult, is not new.

Finding parents financially liable in civil court is even less new. As the details have emerged, I suspect this daddy is going to be the target of
many negligence lawsuits (and rightfully so).

So... if the investigators of this crime have unearthed text messages or something like that... Where daddy says to his son... The gun I bought you is under my bed and there is 3 or 4 loaded magazines in the nightstand... go to school and shoot them MF'ers up for being bullies.

If the father wasn't told his son was a potential threat, and then turned around and bought the kid a gun anyway, you might have a point. As is, he should have known better and should be charged.

2nd degree murder charges in the US can stem from "Extreme recklessness".

Which fits in this instance.

I would also argue that it fits the description of the actions of local law enforcement, who took the kid's "I don't have Discord, I only have Tik Tok" word over the FBI evidence.


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I agree that it needs an overhaul. A lottery system with a single term sounds better than what we have now. Now, committee chairs make the recruitment decisions, and that's bad because 1) they make bad decisions, and 2) there's some sort of elite alliance that gets candidate names on the recruiters' desks

Don't doubt that lottery candidates would also ultimately be from elite
groups and not everyday people.

Lastly, 3) primaries are rare. We haven't had one (for US Rep) in my region fo
a very long time. Not the Republicans nor the Democrats.

Why are they rare? We have them before every election, even the local non-partisian races, and even if there is only one candidate from each
party running. Do they really not have them, or do you just not vote in
them?


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Hello Randall,

I noticed you asked in another (sysop) echo and didn't get much help as
to how to tell the difference between real names vs. allows aliases
echoes.

There are a couple of FIDO file echoes -- BACKBONE and ECHOLIST -- that
might be of assistance. One, or both, are where you can get the latest
echo list packet. The ELIST file usually arrives once a month --

There is no official elist/echolist in Fidonet.

Hey, thanks a ton for that, Mike.

A bunch of humbug is still humbug.

Certainly the most thorough of the responses I've received on that.

First and foremost -

You do not have to use your legal name anywhere outside of legal
documents.

There is no official elist or echolist in Fidonet.
My own is good enough for me, and any others would be redundant.

Google allows users to use any name they want across Google services.
Google even apologized to users for having forced them to use real
names for three years prior to that change.

"There are no more restrictions on what name you can use."
~Google

Isn't that great?

German courts have taken Facebook to task, ruling that Germans
must be allowed to sign up under pseudonyms to comply with privacy law.

This has been excpanded to include the EU.

It is time for Fidonet to join the rest of the universe.

I'll have to go back and review.

Use of whatever name floats your boat should not take you
long to review.

I remember looking through .. uhh ...

Please ... please ... please ... do not pull a Joe Biden on us.

something (as useful as that is) and had names and descriptions but no high
level rules. Will take a closer look over the weekend.

Rules? There are no Rules ...

For Life,
Lee

--
GOP thinks banning guns won't elminate guns.
GOP thinks banning abortion will elininate abortions.

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