Hello August,

On Monday June 08 2020 09:59, you wrote to me:

MvdV>> A basic problem with off-line readers. I don't have that
MvdV>> problem because I do not use that system. The message id's from
MvdV>> my users are generated on their system by their point software.
MvdV>> It does not matter in what time frame they arrive here.

What is the point software that those point systems are using?

Binkd, Fmail, Golded.


Cheers, Michiel

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Richard Menedetter wrote to Dan Clough <=-

Binkd, Fmail, Golded.

None of that is "point software".

I used that software (-Fmail +HPT) as a point.

Perhaps you did.

My statement above is still valid, though. None of those are
*specifically* used as point software (which is what I thought
would be obvious in the way I stated it). There *are* dedicated
point software packages around.



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Hello Michiel!

** On Tuesday 09.06.20 - 08:17, Michiel van der Vlist wrote to August Abolins:

What is the point software that those point systems are using?

MvdV> Binkd, Fmail, Golded.

Congratulations for building/stitching multiple programs together to accomplish point appearance.

But when I said point software I was refering to the fidonet understanding
of what "point software" means. Just look at the Fidonews newsletter ever week:

+- - - - - - - - - - -+- - -+- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -+

POINT SOFTWARE

APoint |PI |https://stargate.org.uk/apoint/
| | v1.25 on 2001-12-12

CrossPoint (XP) |P? |http://www.crosspoint.de (German only)
| | pm@crosspoint.de
| | v3.12d on 1999-12-22

FreeXP |P |http://www.freexp.de (German only)
| | support@freexp.de
| | v3.42 on 2010-06-27
FidoIP |PO |http://sourceforge.net/apps/mediawiki
| | /fidoip/
| | v.1.0.5 on 2010-12

OpenXP |PIO |https://sourceforge.net/projects
| | /openxp5/ 2:240/2188.31
| |http://openxp.uk Windows/Linux
| | dev@openxp.uk English/German
| | v5.0.42 on 2019-12-28

WinPoint |PI |http://www.winpoint.org
| | English/German/Spanish
| |https://stargate.org.uk/winpoint/
| | v5 (Beta Release) on 2017-03-17
+- - - - - - - - - - -+- - -+- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -+

Are you suggesting that list is a lie? or incomplete? ..or falsely
reports what point software actually is? ;)


../|ug

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Re: /what point software
By: Michiel van der Vlist to mark lewis on Tue Jun 09 2020 21:26:28


MvdV> Instead of an 'H' we see an 'i' with accent grave. The infamous hex
MvdV> 8D in CP437. My mesage however was encoded in CP866. That is Cyrillic
MvdV> and in CP866, hex 8D is the letter pronounced as 'i' in 'Putin" which
MvdV> looks very much like the latin 'H'. So someone using a reader that
MvdV> propely displays CP866, would not have noticed anything odd other than
MvdV> the capitalisation.

that partucular character has problems several ways... in this case, though, it is known as the soft_cr... it is used to tell other readers/editors where the word wrap is/was on the original... some tosser have an option to strip this... some editors have an option to set it... some have no choice and it is set all the time... i know that QWK/BW use it for their terminal wrap in edited messages...

so if we strip it, then we break other languages... german is one, IIRC... if we leave it, some of today's readers/editors will show it instead of word wrapping on it and not displaying it at all...

this BBS editor has it as an option... i'll flip it after writing this reply and we'll see how my future messages look...


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On Jun 09, 2020 03:48pm, Michiel Van Der Vlist wrote to Mark Lewis:

Hi Michiel,

MVDV> QWK/BW was never popular
MVDV> ere and AFAIK was never used by points. (I
MVDV> ave been the R28 Point Coordinator since 1996 or so.) In 1996 R28 had
MVDV> some 5500 registered points.

That is very interesting, do you know why this was the case? Language maybe?

When I left Fidonet Philippines we had 3 points only and one of them I know became a sysop later.

Terry


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Hello Terry,

On Wednesday June 10 2020 15:01, you wrote to me:

MVDV>> QWK/BW was never popular ere and AFAIK was never used by points.
^
MVDV>> (I ave been the R28 Point Coordinator since 1996 or so.)
^
Your software has stripped the hex 8D.

MVDV>> In 1996 R28 had some 5500 registered points.

That is very interesting, do you know why this was the case? Language maybe?

Language was not the issue I think. Pointing was not only popular in The Netherlands, it was popular in all of Europe. At the height of Fidonet there were over half a million points listed in the Z2 pointlist. The pointlist was a voluntairty thing. Some point sysops choose not to be in it. So there may have been more than half a million.

I'd say the introdcution of metered local calls was the main trigger for the BBS users to become points. And oh yes, calls in the middle of the night were cheaper, so they could configure their system to poll the boss node in the cheap time. On the other side side of the fence, sysops would encouarage their BBS users to become points because points only kept the line for minutes instead of hours. So that sysops could do more with less lines.
Plus that once having experienced pointing the majority never wanted to go back to reading and writing messages via a BBS. In the Netherlands BBS users became an extinct species. The last one was spotted in the wild around 1996.

When I left Fidonet Philippines we had 3 points only and one of them I know became a sysop later.

One out of three ain't bad I'd say. ;) here the pool of points was a breeding ground for new sysops. After the early nineties it was very unusual to have new sysops that hadn't started out as a point. I myself started out as a point too.


Cheers, Michiel

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Hi Dan!

09 Jun 2020 20:26, from Dan Clough -> August Abolins:

My firm belief is that he (and others) are just arguing for the
sake of arguing... :(

See my reply to August.

BTW I personally prefer to set up a point with full fledged fido software.
This is what I have done when I entered fido, and it was much easier to conert that setup from point to node.

Anyways I have noted that for some people software that can be used to run a point is not point software.

What you call point software is a dedicated point package to me (limited SW that ONLY can run as point, but is a bit easier to setup).
I think the world is big enough that we can live with both "definitions".

I do not think it makes much more sense to argue about definitions ....

CU, Ricsi

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Hello Richard,

On Wednesday June 10 2020 12:29, you wrote to Dan Clough:

BTW I personally prefer to set up a point with full fledged fido
software. This is what I have done when I entered fido, and it was
much easier to conert that setup from point to node.

Same here. A fellow HAM and friend - he was my right hand in maintaing the local 2m repeater - happened to be the local InterMail dealer. One day he came in with a couple of disks and installed InterMail on my 286. He gave me a nice discount and from then on he was my Boss Node. That was in 1991 or 1992. I don't think there were any dedicated point setups available then.

Anyway, it was my way of getting to know Fidonet technology and after that upgrading to full node was a piece of cake.


Cheers, Michiel

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On Jun 10, 2020 11:36am, Michiel Van Der Vlist wrote to Terry Roati:

Hi Michiel,

MVDV> Language was not the issue I think. Pointing was not only popular in
MVDV> The Netherlands, it was popular in all of Europe. At the height of
MVDV> Fidonet there were over half a million points listed in the Z2
MVDV> pointlist. The pointlist was a voluntairty thing. Some point sysops
MVDV> choose not to be in it. So there may have been more than half a
MVDV> million.

That is very interesting, maybe you should add it to the Fidonet wiki.

MVDV> I'd say the introdcution of metered local calls was the main trigger
MVDV> for the BBS users to become points. And oh yes, calls in the middle
MVDV> of the night were cheaper, so they could configure their system to
MVDV> poll the boss node in the cheap time. On the other side side of the
MVDV> fence, sysops would encouarage their BBS users to become points
MVDV> because points only kept the line for minutes instead of hours. So
MVDV> that sysops could do more with less lines. Plus that once having
MVDV> experienced pointing the majority never wanted to go back to reading
MVDV> and writing messages via a BBS. In the Netherlands BBS users became
MVDV> an extinct species. The last one was spotted in the wild around 1996.

Yeah metered calls will do that so it all makes sense.

We were lucky in the Philippines as local calls were untimed hence callers
were limited to 30 mins so the two BBS lines were always busy. Problem was getting telephone lines in Manila, it took me 3-4 years to get 3 lines.

Terry

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Hello mark,

On Tuesday June 09 2020 20:25, you wrote to me:

MvdV>> Instead of an 'H' we see an 'i' with accent grave. The infamous
MvdV>> hex 8D in CP437.

Note the use of te word "infamous".

that partucular character has problems several ways... in this case, though, it is known as the soft_cr...

I know that <sigh>

This what I wrote in Fidonews Vol 29, nr 1 in an article titled "A PLEA FOR UTF-8 IN FIODONET Part 2" (Part one was published in Vol 28, nr 52)

=== quote ===

So what else would we need to make FidoNet work with UTF-8? As far as
the transport layer is concerned nothing really. FidoNet is fully 8
bit transparent except for the NULL as the terminating character for
strings. There is no conflict as in UTF-8 the NULL character has the
exact same meaning as in ASCII. Oh wait, there is this tiny little
snag: the archaic soft return. In their infinite wisdom, the founding
fathers decided that the character 0x8D had special meaning; that of
soft return. Probably a remnant from the Wordstar days. In hindsight
totally superfluous and a conflict with many code page schemes that
treat it as a printable character. It also conflicts with UTF-8. 0x8D
is a valid byte in a well formed UTF-8 string. Fortunately most bronze
age software allows configuring 0x8D as a printable character instead
of soft return, so this should no longer be a problem. Be sure however
to configure your tosser to not strip soft returns.

=== unquote ===

so if we strip it, then we break other languages... german is one,

German is hardly affected. The most used encodings in Germany are CP850 and Latin-1. In CP850 it is the 'i' with accent grave which is not used in German. In Latin-1 it is a control code R1, whatever that means. The Russians are most affected as in Cyrillic CP866 it is the capital letter pronunced as the 'N' in "Putin" as I already explained.
In UTF-8 it affects more than one language as it can occur in a well formed UTF-8 sequence.

IIRC... if we leave it, some of today's readers/editors will show it instead of word wrapping on it and not displaying it at all...

Those reader have long been fased out in this part of the world. Mainly because it is considered a printable character by most. Golded has the option: DISPSOFTCR yes

Tossers should never strip it. Period. Althoug Fmail still has an option to do so. Possibly for historic reasons.

this BBS editor has it as an option... i'll flip it after writing this reply and we'll see how my future messages look...

Your editor did not strià it or I would not have seen the 'i' with  ccent gr ve in your mess ge.

But you  re ignoring the àoint. Which w s that your softw re wrongly m rks your reply to my message as CP437. It should haven been CP866.

I h ve hidden, some more e ster eggs, this time not involving hex 8D.

Enjoy.


Cheers, Michiel

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