Hello All!

As Ward pointed out an election is overdue and even more so now that Janis has left Fidonet at least according to the current Nodelist and Dailies.

Any one up to take the election on and do the honours to find volunteers to take up the Moderation etc ?


This echo is up for renewal as far as ELIST is concerned so I will Temporarily look after the Moderatorship for it but the new mod will also need to deal with
this as well after election.


Vincent

--- Mageia Linux v8 X64/Mbse v1.0.7.24/GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: Air Applewood, The Linux Gateway to the UK & Eire (2:250/1)

Hi Vincent,

On 2022-02-02 14:28:04, you wrote to All:

As Ward pointed out an election is overdue and even more so now that
Janis has left Fidonet at least according to the current Nodelist and Dailies.

Any one up to take the election on and do the honours to find volunteers to
take up the Moderation etc ?

This echo is up for renewal as far as ELIST is concerned so I will Temporarily look after the Moderatorship for it but the new mod will also need to deal with this as well after election.

A moderator isn't obligated to do anything regarding the ELIST!

Here's an idea, why not let the area as it is, without moderator and elisting, and see what happens!?


Bye, Wilfred.

--- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
* Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)

Hello Wilfred!

Wednesday February 02 2022 15:51, you wrote to me:

Hi Vincent,

On 2022-02-02 14:28:04, you wrote to All:

As Ward pointed out an election is overdue and even more so now
that Janis has left Fidonet at least according to the current
Nodelist and Dailies.

Any one up to take the election on and do the honours to find
volunteers to take up the Moderation etc ?

This echo is up for renewal as far as ELIST is concerned so I
will Temporarily look after the Moderatorship for it but the new
mod will also need to deal with this as well after election.

A moderator isn't obligated to do anything regarding the ELIST!

Here's an idea, why not let the area as it is, without moderator and elisting, and see what happens!?

No the moderator soes NOT need to do any thing but -

It will be deleted from ELIST system once expired.

The whole idea behind the renewals currently every six months is to ensure dead
echo's are removed on the basis that the mod has gone and so will the echo unless taken up by another person.

This is not me saying this it's been there for over 20+ years all the way back to the ECHOBASE system.
Like wise the same as Ben had it.



Vincent

--- Mageia Linux v8 X64/Mbse v1.0.7.24/GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: Air Applewood, The Linux Gateway to the UK & Eire (2:250/1)

On 2022 Feb 02 15:51:56, you wrote to Vincent Coen:

Here's an idea, why not let the area as it is, without moderator and elisting, and see what happens!?

one of the things that will happen is that it will be removed from the backbone distribution list... some systems may elect to drop it in their bitbucket at that time... other systems may elect to maintain a link to it in another of their message area groups... depending on their setup and connections, this may mean that some systems will have to switch feeds for the area...

)\/(ark

"The soul of a small kitten in the body of a mighty dragon. Look on my majesty, ye mighty, and despair! Or bring me catnip. Your choice. Oooh, a shiny thing!"
... Yesterday it worked. Today it is not working. Windows is like that.
---
* Origin: (1:3634/12.73)

Hello Wilfred!

Wednesday February 02 2022 16:54, you wrote to me:

Hi Vincent,

On 2022-02-02 15:09:46, you wrote to me:

A moderator isn't obligated to do anything regarding the ELIST!

Here's an idea, why not let the area as it is, without moderator
and elisting, and see what happens!?

No the moderator soes NOT need to do any thing but -

It will be deleted from ELIST system once expired.

I see a plus. ;-)

The whole idea behind the renewals currently every six months is
to ensure dead echo's are removed on the basis that the mod has
gone and so will the echo unless taken up by another person.

Nope. The echo will happily continue to exist without a moderator.
There are plenty of examples!

This is not me saying this it's been there for over 20+ years all
the way back to the ECHOBASE system. Like wise the same as Ben
had it.

Yes, causing problems and agrevation all that time...

What problems ?

In practice I am not so sure that many sysop's use fully the content from elist
as there is more that is not there hence the reason for also using a variation of it to maintain all Echo's without the time periods or named moderators.

The benefit how ever is a block of echo's that do show the Descriptions for each one where as the backbone does not, at least currently.

Hopefully by putting all echo's within the system will allow areas that do not have a description to be added to with such and that can only help all sysop's.

My system using mbse does make use of the descriptions at least for bbs users other wise they are not used - at least for me using Golded as it does not handle them in any way.



Vincent

--- Mageia Linux v8 X64/Mbse v1.0.7.24/GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: Air Applewood, The Linux Gateway to the UK & Eire (2:250/1)

Hi mark,

On 2022-02-02 10:32:00, you wrote to me:

Here's an idea, why not let the area as it is, without moderator and
elisting, and see what happens!?

one of the things that will happen is that it will be removed from the backbone distribution list... some systems may elect to drop it in their bitbucket at that time... other systems may elect to maintain a link to it in another of their message area groups... depending on their setup and connections, this may mean that some systems will have to switch feeds for the area...

In other words: this unnecessary NAB administration system is only causing problems...

Bye, Wilfred.

--- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
* Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)

Hi Vincent,

On 2022-02-02 15:09:46, you wrote to me:

A moderator isn't obligated to do anything regarding the ELIST!

Here's an idea, why not let the area as it is, without moderator and
elisting, and see what happens!?

No the moderator soes NOT need to do any thing but -

It will be deleted from ELIST system once expired.

I see a plus. ;-)

The whole idea behind the renewals currently every six months is to
ensure dead echo's are removed on the basis that the mod has gone and
so will the echo unless taken up by another person.

Nope. The echo will happily continue to exist without a moderator. There are plenty of examples!

This is not me saying this it's been there for over 20+ years all the
way back to the ECHOBASE system. Like wise the same as Ben had it.

Yes, causing problems and agrevation all that time...

Bye, Wilfred.

--- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
* Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)

Hi Vincent,

On 2022-02-02 16:05:05, you wrote to me:

Yes, causing problems and agrevation all that time...

What problems ?

I'm not going to regurgitate all the history of miss-use and the role the elist played in the so called "zone wars"...

Hopefully by putting all echo's within the system will allow areas
that do not have a description to be added to with such and that can
only help all sysop's.

You don't seem to get that some people don't want anything to do with the elist. Just going ahead and list those areas anyway on your own initiative is going to cause annoyance at least...

Bye, Wilfred.

--- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
* Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)

Hello Wilfred!

Wednesday February 02 2022 18:34, you wrote to me:

Hi Vincent,

On 2022-02-02 16:05:05, you wrote to me:

Yes, causing problems and agrevation all that time...

What problems ?

I'm not going to regurgitate all the history of miss-use and the role
the elist played in the so called "zone wars"...

Hopefully by putting all echo's within the system will allow
areas that do not have a description to be added to with such and
that can only help all sysop's.

You don't seem to get that some people don't want anything to do with
the elist. Just going ahead and list those areas anyway on your own initiative is going to cause annoyance at least...

Look, if you have no use for then don't use it, period.

Enough.


Vincent

--- Mageia Linux v8 X64/Mbse v1.0.7.24/GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: Air Applewood, The Linux Gateway to the UK & Eire (2:250/1)

Vince,

The whole idea behind the renewals currently every six months is to
ensure dead echo's are removed on the basis that the mod has gone ...

An echo is dead when there are no participants ... the presence of a moderator is a trivial thing.

There are bunches of echoes with moderators that are as dead as Napoleon Bonaparte.

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - Jan 26 2022
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)

Vince,

Look, if you have no use for then don't use it, period.

About the elist ... look ... it's a free world and it's your privilege to post almost whatever almost where-ever, but some of us (incl myself) don't like that this elist-thing is forced down on us from about every other angle as if it's unavoidable and a tool for survival.

In Z2 the elist has never been a thing especially after what happened to Peter Witschi which prompted many of us to not even touch it with a 10ft pole. It was a power-struggle, it was one of the corner stones of the Zone Warz .... It has a very bitter taste ...

Just as a form of information, nothing more...

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - Jan 26 2022
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)

On 3/02/2022 05:21, Ward Dossche : Vincent Coen wrote:

There are bunches of echoes with moderators that are as dead as Napoleon Bonaparte.

hear that he is enjoying a drink on the front veranda with Elvis (and Roy - but I won't mention him).

--
Regards
David
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbi
* Origin: St Helens, Qld (3:640/305)

On 02 Feb 22 19:19:02, Vincent Coen said the following to Wilfred Van Velzen:

Look, if you have no use for then don't use it, period.

The much-coveted Z1C echo I think I let "expire" from the Elist long ago yet as recently as last week I have non-Z1 systems obsessed with trying to grab
it, along with other echoes originating from here.

Nick

--- Renegade vY2Ka2
* Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)

On 02 Feb 22 21:38:50, Ward Dossche said the following to Vincent Coen:

About the elist ... look ... it's a free world and it's your privilege to p almost whatever almost where-ever, but some of us (incl myself) don't like that this elist-thing is forced down on us from about every other angle as it's unavoidable and a tool for survival.

Thank you.

Nick

--- Renegade vY2Ka2
* Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)

In Z2 the elist has never been a thing especially after what happened to Peter Witschi which prompted many of us to not even touch it with a 10ft pole. It was a power-struggle, it was one of the corner stones of the
Zone Warz .... It has a very bitter taste ...

I feel that it is hypocritical of you to mention the Zone Wars. And I can only pray that you taste bitterness when you do!

Granted, I wasn't here when that happened. I was too busy playing on the
world wide web. I literally have to rely on second-hand opinions. But some of these opinions are not kind to you, Ward! And your recent activity in some echoes are not helping.

I am forced to listen to 'his story' in order to learn about Fido's history. Please don't blame me when I get my facts wrong...

McDoob
SysOp, PiBBS
pibbs.sytes.net

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: PiBBS (1:229/110)

On 02 Feb 22 18:45:44, Shaun Buzza said the following to Ward Dossche:

Granted, I wasn't here when that happened. I was too busy playing on the world wide web. I literally have to rely on second-hand opinions. But some these opinions are not kind to you, Ward! And your recent activity in some echoes are not helping.

Just my two cents... since childhood I questioned everything. Question school, teachers, narratives, authority, politicians, the media. And rumors.

Sometimes, you should not rely on second-hand opinions of a person by many
and instead go direct to that person in question for clarification.

And sometimes, what happens is that person often proves themselves "correct" on some things and is actually a very polite awesome person to know privately.

Nick
--- Renegade vY2Ka2
* Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)

Shaun,

Granted, I wasn't here when that happened. I was too busy playing on the world wide web.

In 1994? Gimme a break ... I've been in IT since 1970.

I literally have to rely on second-hand opinions. But some of
these opinions are not kind to you, Ward! And your recent activity in
some echoes are not helping.

Ask me if I give a shite on both counts ...

As I learned from a wise old man in Montana "Opinions are like an arse, everybody has one, and it stinks".

I am forced to listen to 'his story' in order to learn about Fido's history.
Please don't blame me when I get my facts wrong...

Oh but I do ... there's a 28 year history of Khrap burried in archives if you go searching through them where Khontrol was the key activity. The Fidonews-debacle is well documented ...go look for it and read the names out loud. Or ask Bjorn, or Michiel, ....

I have been taken to court by a sysop on policy-matters, yes ... a real court with a real judge ... and I stood my ground, defending P4 and winning ... that is documented too.

I've had to deal with Nazi insults where my name was spelled as 'doSSche', where my colleague-sysop Guido Gybels was called 'Guido Goebels' ... The Bin-Li story whom nobody could reach but suddenly an eloquent mail carrying his name was flashed by a ZC come election time.

I also have an excellent track record in killing commercial ventures trying to 'sell' Fidonet mail. Ask the RC33 about my political intervention when the Italian police cracked-down on Fidonet-Italy because they thought it was a set-up of the mafia ...

There's a lot you don't know, Shaun, and I suggest you start researching and get back to me when you're done in 5 or 6 years ... then perhaps you will be entitled to an opinion, but not now.

As for that "other echo" ... from the beginning I predicted the man would be unable to produce a weekly version of the Fidogazette and here we are ... no week-3 though there was a heavy commitment from his side. I've been too long around in Fido not to understand this ... there's not enough critical mass left in Fido to produce weekly editions of whatever ... the man could have said "Well, I think you're right, let's make it a monthly, or bi-monthly" but he's too stubborn.

Have I missed anything?

How are you doing on the article you promised to write?

Take care,

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - Jan 26 2022
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)

Ward Dossche wrote to Shaun Buzza <=-

<SNIP>

There's a lot you don't know, Shaun, and I suggest you start
researching and get back to me when you're done in 5 or 6 years
... then perhaps you will be entitled to an opinion, but not now.

<SNIP>

You're right about Shaun (the McNoob). He's another flash-in-the-pan
sysop who feels entitled and is mouthy. Likely he won't be around long
though, I'd say 2-3 months and he'll tire of it and be gone.



... Daddy, what does "now formatting drive C:" mean?
=== MultiMail/Linux v0.52
--- SBBSecho 3.14-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:123/115)

Just my two cents... since childhood I questioned everything. Question school, teachers, narratives, authority, politicians, the media. And rumors.

Sometimes, you should not rely on second-hand opinions of a person by
many and instead go direct to that person in question for clarification.

And sometimes, what happens is that person often proves themselves "correct" on some things and is actually a very polite awesome person to know privately.

Aye! And this is why I challenge him!
We all have no patience for a$$holes!

I feel certain that is not the idea I want to share...give me a moment?

Just like what's happening in my country's capitol: there's a limit between 'making a point' and 'making noise'...no, that's not it...

Aye, actually, that IS it! \(O_O)/

Never mind. I continue to only make sense to myself...

McDoob
SysOp, PiBBS
pibbs.sytes.net

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: PiBBS (1:229/110)

In 1994? Gimme a break ... I've been in IT since 1970.

Ask me if I give a shite on both counts ...

Have I missed anything?

How are you doing on the article you promised to write?

Ward, I believe that you know a lot more than I do. But I also know that you really need to look at the way you present yourself!

Trust me, sir. If I thought you weren't worth listening to, it wouldn't
require much effort to make you silent on this end.

Nick has also spoken up for you. I want you to know that it wasn't necessary!
I already know that you're not a troll! Please, choose a different way to share your message!

Ward, I pray that you hear the message, not the words.

Your new friend,

McDoob
SysOp, PiBBS
pibbs.sytes.net

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: PiBBS (1:229/110)

You're right about Shaun (the McNoob). He's another flash-in-the-pan sysop who feels entitled and is mouthy. Likely he won't be around long though, I'd say 2-3 months and he'll tire of it and be gone.

Aye, right. I knew I'd forgotten a name that definitely belongs in my twit filter...

Buh-bye, again, hobbit! t(^_^t)

McDoob
SysOp, PiBBS
pibbs.sytes.net
--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: PiBBS (1:229/110)

See you in SIX months, when I review my twit filter again, ya wanker!

McDoob
SysOp, PiBBS
pibbs.sytes.net

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: PiBBS (1:229/110)

Hi Vincent,

On 2022-02-02 19:19:02, you wrote to me:

Hopefully by putting all echo's within the system will allow
areas that do not have a description to be added to with such and
that can only help all sysop's.

You don't seem to get that some people don't want anything to do with
the elist. Just going ahead and list those areas anyway on your own
initiative is going to cause annoyance at least...

Look, if you have no use for then don't use it, period.

Well there's your problem. If you start listing those areas without consulting and consent, where anyone can send in mutations, you are forcing the people that don't want to have to do anything with the elist...

I think it's your responsability to find out what the status of an area and it's "owner"/moderator is, before you start adding them to your database. And if you can't contact them, and get a response, you should regard that as a NO when it comes to elisting them.

Bye, Wilfred.
--- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
* Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)

On 2022 Feb 02 16:51:52, you wrote to me:

Here's an idea, why not let the area as it is, without moderator and
elisting, and see what happens!?

one of the things that will happen is that it will be removed from
the backbone distribution list... some systems may elect to drop it
in their bitbucket at that time... other systems may elect to
maintain a link to it in another of their message area groups...
depending on their setup and connections, this may mean that some
systems will have to switch feeds for the area...

In other words: this unnecessary NAB administration system is only
causing problems...

nope...
1. the NAB doesn't exist any more
2. no problems are caused by moving an echotag from one tosser group to
another or dropping the area from one's feed.

)\/(ark

"The soul of a small kitten in the body of a mighty dragon. Look on my majesty, ye mighty, and despair! Or bring me catnip. Your choice. Oooh, a shiny thing!"
... We all learn by experience but some of us have to go to summer school.
---
* Origin: (1:3634/12.73)

On 2022 Feb 02 16:54:38, you wrote to Vincent Coen:

This is not me saying this it's been there for over 20+ years all the
way back to the ECHOBASE system. Like wise the same as Ben had it.

Yes, causing problems and agrevation all that time...

wrong... certain people caused the problems and aggrivation... the system, itself, did not...

)\/(ark

"The soul of a small kitten in the body of a mighty dragon. Look on my majesty, ye mighty, and despair! Or bring me catnip. Your choice. Oooh, a shiny thing!"
... Never explain: Your friends understand & your enemies won't believe you. ---
* Origin: (1:3634/12.73)

On 2022 Feb 02 16:05:04, you wrote to Wilfred van Velzen:

The benefit how ever is a block of echo's that do show the
Descriptions for each one where as the backbone does not, at least currently.

the backbone.na and backbone.no files use the short one-line description of an echo's listing... this one-line description and/or the echotag are what are displayed to users on BBSes and in the various message reading tools... the moderators are responsible for this data...

)\/(ark

"The soul of a small kitten in the body of a mighty dragon. Look on my majesty, ye mighty, and despair! Or bring me catnip. Your choice. Oooh, a shiny thing!"
... A church steeple with a lightning rod on top shows a lack of confidence. ---
* Origin: (1:3634/12.73)

Hi mark,

On 2022-02-03 06:41:28, you wrote to me:

This is not me saying this it's been there for over 20+ years all
the way back to the ECHOBASE system. Like wise the same as Ben had
it.

Yes, causing problems and agrevation all that time...

wrong... certain people caused the problems and aggrivation... the system, itself, did not...

The echolist keepers were part of the problem and aggrivation. I call them part of the system.

Bye, Wilfred.
--- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
* Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)

Hi Wilfred,

Why or how did the echolist keepers cause problems?

Terry


On Feb 03, 2022 01:25pm, Wilfred van Velzen wrote to mark lewis:

Hi mark,

On 2022-02-03 06:41:28, you wrote to me:

This is not me saying this it's been there for over 20+ years all
the way back to the ECHOBASE system. Like wise the same as Ben had
it.

Yes, causing problems and agrevation all that time...

wrong... certain people caused the problems and aggrivation... the
system,
itself, did not...

The echolist keepers were part of the problem and aggrivation. I call them part of the system.

Bye, Wilfred.
--- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
* Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)

... Platinum Xpress & Wildcat!..... Nice!!!!
--- Platinum Xpress/Win/WINServer v7.0
* Origin: The File Bank BBS! (3:640/1321)

On 2022 Feb 03 13:26:48, you wrote to me:

Yes, causing problems and agrevation all that time...

wrong... certain people caused the problems and aggrivation... the
system, itself, did not...

The echolist keepers were part of the problem and aggrivation. I call
them part of the system.

one of the echolist keepers was a bit pecular, yes... the others were not so bad...

)\/(ark

"The soul of a small kitten in the body of a mighty dragon. Look on my majesty, ye mighty, and despair! Or bring me catnip. Your choice. Oooh, a shiny thing!"
... 99% of the lawyers give the rest a bad name.
---
* Origin: (1:3634/12.73)

Hi Terry,

On 2022-02-03 22:37:32, you wrote to me:

Why or how did the echolist keepers cause problems?

For one Ben Ritchey allowed bogus and insulting area names from Z1 sysops, but threatened to have a sysop from another zone removed from fidonet, when he did the same...

Bye, Wilfred.

--- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
* Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)

Terry,

Why or how did the echolist keepers cause problems?

The question is to Wilfred, but let me answer it.

Many many moons ago there was an echolist people worked with. There als was an echolist strictly focused on Z2.

When the echolist-keeper decided to close shop, and I have no idea anymore when that was but at least 20 years ago ... more I think ... it was broadly decided that it would be best to have only 1 echolist, merge both together. Peter Witschi from Switzerland was asked to achieve that and he set to work.

Not slightly later someone else popped-up out of the blue saying he was going to run an echolist in North America because the then current echolist would be unacceptable for Z1. Peter Witschi, a very fine person, was countered in his endeavours and left in disgust.

That was the time several sysops (among which myself) decided we had no use for an echolist ... haven't used it for decades, echomail still flows ...

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - Jan 26 2022
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)

Hello Wilfred!

Thursday February 03 2022 09:12, you wrote to me:

Hi Vincent,

On 2022-02-02 19:19:02, you wrote to me:

Hopefully by putting all echo's within the system will allow
areas that do not have a description to be added to with such
and that can only help all sysop's.

You don't seem to get that some people don't want anything to do
with the elist. Just going ahead and list those areas anyway on
your own initiative is going to cause annoyance at least...

Look, if you have no use for then don't use it, period.

Well there's your problem. If you start listing those areas without consulting and consent, where anyone can send in mutations, you are
forcing the people that don't want to have to do anything with the
elist...

I think it's your responsability to find out what the status of an
area and it's "owner"/moderator is, before you start adding them to
your database. And if you can't contact them, and get a response, you
should regard that as a NO when it comes to elisting them.

The ELIST system is a semi automatic system used by the moderator of an echo and other than being the developer of the software I have no other input.

How it is used and by whom is not in my remit.

That said I will be setting up the same s/w with some changes to support the backbone which will have non time limiting entries - at least until the
echo backbone chain members report that it is dead and has been for 12 months or longer and is not a result of a broken link again I just develop the s/w
and leave it on auto and how it is used is down to others.

Vincent

--- Mageia Linux v8 X64/Mbse v1.0.7.24/GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: Air Applewood, The Linux Gateway to the UK & Eire (2:250/1)

Hello mark!

Thursday February 03 2022 06:50, you wrote to me:

On 2022 Feb 02 16:05:04, you wrote to Wilfred van Velzen:

The benefit how ever is a block of echo's that do show the
Descriptions for each one where as the backbone does not, at
least currently.

the backbone.na and backbone.no files use the short one-line
description of an echo's listing... this one-line description and/or
the echotag are what are displayed to users on BBSes and in the
various message reading tools... the moderators are responsible for
this data...

I am well aware of all this, also for some bb system there is no provision for forcing a display of an echo's rules when a area is selected for reading, I know mine (mbse) is not so the user has to select a menu option for it to be displayed and for many users they only will read the first few lines with the rest totally ignored/unread.

Regardless the backbone system does not have a mechanism to deal with descriptions and like wise many bb systems as well.

Therefore the need for descriptions to be added for the purposes of the backbone is totally moot.

It is just the facility to build them in at least for the echo database is there, it is just a question of how it can be used without me as elist maintainer not being directly involved - fully auto is good !

I am more than happy to leave it as one liner echo titles.



Vincent

--- Mageia Linux v8 X64/Mbse v1.0.7.24/GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: Air Applewood, The Linux Gateway to the UK & Eire (2:250/1)

Vince,

That said I will be setting up the same s/w with some changes to support the backbone which...

Which bacbone? There is no backbone anymore ... years ago we shifted to doing business in a different, but if you're happy doing this then who am I to say you can't ...

It doesn't change that backbones are pretty useless these days ...

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - Jan 26 2022
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)

Hello Ward!

Thursday February 03 2022 18:29, you wrote to me:

Vince,

That said I will be setting up the same s/w with some changes to
support the backbone which...

Which bacbone? There is no backbone anymore ... years ago we shifted
to doing business in a different, but if you're happy doing this then
who am I to say you can't ...

It doesn't change that backbones are pretty useless these days ...

Yes it is and it is a pain for sysops who wish to keep their system up to date with a full set of echo areas for their users or downlinks.

I seem to recall this was the purpose of backbone in the first place as a one stop location for a full list.

The problems with it have been :

1. Not maintained.
2. No method to do 1.

This hopefully is a possible solution and making use of the weak usage of ELIST.

Yes I may have re-programmed it, but as an aid for sysop's it is thin on the ground, just another tool/system that is not being fully used but there again there's a lot of echo's that do not require or need a 'moderator' which is getting smaller as time goes by but there again there is not many people posting to them.

This is just a way of utilising the technology (software) for a more useful function - whether it is used by sysop's is a different question as only time will tell.

Vincent

--- Mageia Linux v8 X64/Mbse v1.0.7.24/GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: Air Applewood, The Linux Gateway to the UK & Eire (2:250/1)

On 03 Feb 22 17:49:46, Vincent Coen said the following to Ward Dossche:

It doesn't change that backbones are pretty useless these days ...

Yes it is and it is a pain for sysops who wish to keep their system up to d with a full set of echo areas for their users or downlinks.

Areas can get auto-added here to D'Bridge from links I specify permission to, automatically added into my BBS, and automatically available for Areafixing by others connecting here.

No config files, no scripts, no headaches, no "pain" at all.

Nick

--- Renegade vY2Ka2
* Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)

Hello Nick!

Thursday February 03 2022 13:27, you wrote to me:

On 03 Feb 22 17:49:46, Vincent Coen said the following to Ward
Dossche:

It doesn't change that backbones are pretty useless these days ...

Yes it is and it is a pain for sysops who wish to keep their
system up to d with a full set of echo areas for their users or
downlinks.

Areas can get auto-added here to D'Bridge from links I specify
permission to, automatically added into my BBS, and automatically
available for Areafixing by others connecting here.

No config files, no scripts, no headaches, no "pain" at all.

So what do you do for areas that are not on your system ?


Vincent

--- Mageia Linux v8 X64/Mbse v1.0.7.24/GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: Air Applewood, The Linux Gateway to the UK & Eire (2:250/1)

On 03 Feb 22 19:31:50, Vincent Coen said the following to Nick Andre:

No config files, no scripts, no headaches, no "pain" at all.

So what do you do for areas that are not on your system ?

Await them to be added or someone wants me to add them upon their creation.

Nick

--- Renegade vY2Ka2
* Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)

Hi Vincent,

On 2022-02-03 17:49:46, you wrote to Ward Dossche:

It doesn't change that backbones are pretty useless these days ...

Yes it is and it is a pain for sysops who wish to keep their system up to date with a full set of echo areas for their users or downlinks.

%+ALL is pretty standard these days!

there again there's a lot of echo's that do not require or need a 'moderator'

No areas _require_ a moderator these days.

Bye, Wilfred.
--- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
* Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)

Hello Nick!

Thursday February 03 2022 14:39, you wrote to me:

On 03 Feb 22 19:31:50, Vincent Coen said the following to Nick Andre:

No config files, no scripts, no headaches, no "pain" at all.

So what do you do for areas that are not on your system ?

Await them to be added or someone wants me to add them upon their
creation.

Using the backbone file or others I have the system auto create them and linked
to the primary uplink - I do not need to do a thing.

Likewise to the File areas at least using FILEGATE.ZXX and another.

Vincent

--- Mageia Linux v8 X64/Mbse v1.0.7.24/GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: Air Applewood, The Linux Gateway to the UK & Eire (2:250/1)

Hello Wilfred!

Thursday February 03 2022 21:23, you wrote to me:

Hi Vincent,

On 2022-02-03 17:49:46, you wrote to Ward Dossche:

It doesn't change that backbones are pretty useless these days ...

Yes it is and it is a pain for sysops who wish to keep their
system up to date with a full set of echo areas for their users
or downlinks.

%+ALL is pretty standard these days!

there again there's a lot of echo's that do not require or need a
'moderator'

No areas _require_ a moderator these days.

True.

Vincent

--- Mageia Linux v8 X64/Mbse v1.0.7.24/GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: Air Applewood, The Linux Gateway to the UK & Eire (2:250/1)

On 03 Feb 22 22:59:35, Vincent Coen said the following to Nick Andre:

Using the backbone file or others I have the system auto create them and linked
to the primary uplink - I do not need to do a thing.

So we're basically talking the same thing... automation.

In my case my mailer does everything I need it to do, the same thing except it does not use any backbone files.

Nick

--- Renegade vY2Ka2
* Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)

See you in SIX months, when I review my twit filter again, ya wanker!

I bet that really scares the shit out of Dan. How will he ever survive that?

Just a reality check here:

Who won the 2020 POTUS election?



..

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Hi Ward,

Thanks for the explanation, as you know I was in Zone 6 in the good old days when Zone 1 would threaten some sysop in the Philippines because a user said something the US moderator didn't like and without really trying to fix it first tried to cut the feed. Luckily there were some nice US folks who prevented it.

We all know with the present mesh system that it is highly unlikely to happen ever again which is great.

IMHO, the ELIST is a moderator manager which is useful to some and harmless
to most but causes no real problem other than keeping a few echos alive by posting of rules. If moderators and sysops want to use it then that is their right.

I knew there were a lot of dead echos but I didn't have the report tools for
my system to really see how bad it was until a friend wrote a utility for me recently to do this. There were a total of 95 echo areas that had zero traffic for 2021 based on a feed from Janis. It may not be 100% accurate but would be pretty close.

What I personally would like to see is an updated BACKBONE (it can be called anything I really don't care) which is an updated list of current echo areas and would only be used by sysops who want to use it.

What I found when I rejoined Fido 3+ years ago it was real PITA to setup echo areas as there was not reasonable accurate list. So what happens is we tend to do a +ALL and end up with a system with a heap of dead echo areas plus quite a few others that should probably be put to rest :)

Since rejoining Fido, I have helped a few new sysops join or rejoin Fido and setup their systems and the only issue or pain was the setting of of echo areas.

I have no issue with those sysops who are happy to carry a large group of dead echo areas which is their right and I expect the same courtsey for those that would prefer to have an organized system.

A final question, did Zone 2 keep it's own Echolist after disagreement or did it die a death?

Terry


On Feb 03, 2022 02:51pm, Ward Dossche wrote to Terry Roati:

Terry,

Why or how did the echolist keepers cause problems?

The question is to Wilfred, but let me answer it.

Many many moons ago there was an echolist people worked with. There als was an echolist strictly focused on Z2.

When the echolist-keeper decided to close shop, and I have no idea
anymore when that was but at least 20 years ago ... more I think ... it was broadly decided that it would be best to have only 1 echolist,
merge both together. Peter Witschi from Switzerland was asked to
achieve that and he set to work.

Not slightly later someone else popped-up out of the blue saying he was going to run an echolist in North America because the then current echolist would be unacceptable for Z1. Peter Witschi, a very fine
person, was countered in his endeavours and left in disgust.

That was the time several sysops (among which myself) decided we had no use for an echolist ... haven't used it for decades, echomail still
flows ...

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - Jan 26 2022
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed
(2:292/854)

... Platinum Xpress & Wildcat!..... Nice!!!!
--- Platinum Xpress/Win/WINServer v7.0
* Origin: The File Bank BBS! (3:640/1321)

What I personally would like to see is an updated BACKBONE (it can be called
anything I really don't care) which is an updated list of current echo areas
and would only be used by sysops who want to use it.

There's probably a plethora of echoes posting stats like that. My system posts two messages twice a week, one with stats about all the echoes passing by my system during that time, and one with what echoes, if any, have been deleted after 360 days without traffic.

N203_STAT is available to anyone interested. It used to be about net 203 only (that means a net in region 20 in zone 2) but nowadays I'm in the middle of the Fidoweb, and my system automatically creates any new echo sent to it and ditto removes any dead echoes.






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On 2022 Feb 03 18:29:12, you wrote to Vincent Coen:

That said I will be setting up the same s/w with some changes to
support the backbone which...

Which bacbone? There is no backbone anymore ...

once again, you know not of what you speak ;)

years ago we shifted to doing business in a different,

that's you and some others... it is not indicative of all ;)

but if you're happy doing this then who am I to say you can't ...

exactly...

It doesn't change that backbones are pretty useless these days ...

on the contrary...

)\/(ark

"The soul of a small kitten in the body of a mighty dragon. Look on my majesty, ye mighty, and despair! Or bring me catnip. Your choice. Oooh, a shiny thing!"
... Repeal: What you do when you wrap a banana back up.
---
* Origin: (1:3634/12.73)

Terry,

I knew there were a lot of dead echos but I didn't have the report tools for my system to really see how bad it was until a friend wrote a
utility for me recently to do this.

It's an automatic function of D'Bridge ...

A final question, did Zone 2 keep it's own Echolist after disagreement or did it die a death?

From what I know the elisting-system in Z2 died a death after Peter Witschi's demise when it was defined as a power-struggle tool. A few people, just a handful of Janis-groupies, remained loyal followers like lemmings on a mission.

One of them in Z2 here, after Janis' demise, even asked me if I had any idea where he could pick-up a nodelist now that she was gone ... I often wonder how well people know their hobby and it is one of the causes, after 28 years in the drivers' seat, why I sometimes am very outspoken which also sometimes is wrongly explained as rude ...

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - Jan 26 2022
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)

mark,

Which bacbone? There is no backbone anymore ...

once again, you know not of what you speak ;)

People have been trying to convince me for 28 years of that ... not really doing a very good job if I may add ... :-)

It doesn't change that backbones are pretty useless these days ...

on the contrary...

Well ...

1/ First of all backbone-systems need to learn not to send packets to the wrong destination

2/ Same backbone-systems need to learn to properly route netmails amongst eachother, and not send them via me ...

Good thing there's a Fidoweb as a safety-net to take care of all the nonsens ...

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - Jan 26 2022
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)

Hi Bj”rn,

On Feb 04, 2022 11:47am, Bj”rn Felten wrote to Terry Roati:

N203_STAT is available to anyone interested. It used to be about net
203 only (that means a net in region 20 in zone 2) but nowadays I'm
in the middle of the Fidoweb, and my system automatically creates
any new echo sent to it and ditto removes any dead echoes.

Unfortunately some Mailers cannot automatically add and remove echo areas automatically which mine can't do. As a matter of interest what security have you setup to manage this function for the adding of new echo areas?

I would appreciate a copy of your STAT to compare with mine, if easy to do please send a list of active echo areas as well to troati @ gmail . com.

Thanks,

Terry

..
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125 * Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)

... Platinum Xpress & Wildcat!..... Nice!!!!
--- Platinum Xpress/Win/WINServer v7.0
* Origin: The File Bank BBS! (3:640/1321)

On 2022 Feb 04 14:22:00, you wrote to me:

Which bacbone? There is no backbone anymore ...

once again, you know not of what you speak ;)

People have been trying to convince me for 28 years of that ... not
really doing a very good job if I may add ... :-)

:lol: i hear ya... same here, too :lol:

It doesn't change that backbones are pretty useless these days ...

on the contrary...

Well ...

1/ First of all backbone-systems need to learn not to send packets to
the wrong destination

not all software is built the same... some tossers do even allow forwarding of PKTs not addressed to one of their AKAs... this is not specific to any system(s) operating in a meshed backbone layout...

2/ Same backbone-systems need to learn to properly route netmails
amongst eachother, and not send them via me ...

some operators prefer to use their own routing... even if it is not efficient... this is done all the time by operators and is not specific to any system(s) operating in a meshed backbone layout...

Good thing there's a Fidoweb as a safety-net to take care of all the nonsens ...

funny thing, that, eh? does the Fidoweb call it "echo-routed netmail" as the various backbones have done since they first started accepting routed netmail from any connecting system? :)

)\/(ark

"The soul of a small kitten in the body of a mighty dragon. Look on my majesty, ye mighty, and despair! Or bring me catnip. Your choice. Oooh, a shiny thing!"
... We don't care to eat toadstools that think they are truffles. - Mark
---
* Origin: (1:3634/12.73)

On 2022 Feb 04 21:16:10, you wrote to Bj”rn Felten:

N203_STAT is available to anyone interested. It used to be about net
203 only (that means a net in region 20 in zone 2) but nowadays I'm
in the middle of the Fidoweb, and my system automatically creates any
new echo sent to it and ditto removes any dead echoes.

Unfortunately some Mailers cannot automatically add and remove echo
areas automatically which mine can't do. [...]

FWIW: it is the tosser that would handle this automatic adding as well as the possible automatic removal of areas deemed as dead...

I would appreciate a copy of your STAT to compare with mine, if easy to do please send a list of active echo areas as well to troati @ gmail . com.

there is also the STATS echo where some systems post their various stats...

)\/(ark

"The soul of a small kitten in the body of a mighty dragon. Look on my majesty, ye mighty, and despair! Or bring me catnip. Your choice. Oooh, a shiny thing!"
... We plan more, but accomplish less.
---
* Origin: (1:3634/12.73)

As a matter of interest what security have
you setup to manage this function for the adding of new echo areas?

I've listed the nodes that are allowed to create new areas in my AreaFix config.

I would appreciate a copy of your STAT to compare with mine, if easy to do please send a list of active echo areas as well to troati @ gmail . com.

You can check it out (anonymously if you prefer to) via what's in my origin.

Thanks,

No worries, mate. :)



..
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
* Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)

* Origin: The File Bank BBS! (3:640/1321)

I knew that I have seen this net address somewhere. You're on the same net as one of my oldest Fido friends, Paul Quinn. I think that we still have a direct connection -- netmail as well as echomail.

Just FYI... :)



..

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
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mark,

People have been trying to convince me for 28 years of that ... not ml>WD> really doing a very good job if I may add ... :-)

:lol: i hear ya... same here, too :lol:

Oh dear ... you too? :-)

1/ First of all backbone-systems need to learn not to send packets ml>WD> to the wrong destination

not all software is built the same... some tossers do even allow
forwarding of PKTs not addressed to one of their AKAs... this is not specific to any system(s) operating in a meshed backbone layout...

I would expect the 5 people whom call themselves the "Star System" to have direct links with one another and not feel the need to send PKTs via non-Star systems to another Star-system ... unless said-sysops are clueless about what they are doing ...

This is happening ...

2/ Same backbone-systems need to learn to properly route netmails
amongst eachother, and not send them via me ...

some operators prefer to use their own routing... even if it is not efficient... this is done all the time by operators and is not specific
to any system(s) operating in a meshed backbone layout...

I would expect the 5 people whom call themselves the "Star System" to have direct links with one another and not feel the need to route netmail for another Star-system via a non-Star-system ... unless said-sysops are clueless about what they are doing ...

This is happening ...

Good thing there's a Fidoweb as a safety-net to take care of all the ml>WD> nonsens ...

funny thing, that, eh? does the Fidoweb call it "echo-routed netmail" as the various backbones have done since they first started accepting routed netmail from any connecting system? :)

"Echo-routed netmail" is a thing from the past, just as backbones are, for the purpose of defraying costs. It made sense in the PSTN-days, it's hogwash in the IP-days where routing the logical way along the tree does not impose extra costs anymore to the *C-structure... or just send "direct".

Echo-routed netmail is inviting problems.

As far as I'm concerned you can happily keep flogging a dead horse but when it farts it doesn't mean the horse is not dead ... these are just rotting-gases escaping the carcas.

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - Jan 26 2022
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)

I bet that really scares the shit out of Dan. How will he ever
survive that?

I'm sure it matters less than nothing to him. I am okay with that.

Just a reality check here:

Who won the 2020 POTUS election?

Biden? I don't really follow US Politics, but it's impossible not to know something as relevant as that. What's your point? o_O

Oh, you were about to call me a 'Trumptard', is that it? Doen't apply to non-Americans, I'm afraid! o_-

McDoob
SysOp, PiBBS
pibbs.sytes.net

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: PiBBS (1:229/110)

there is also the STATS echo where some systems post their various stats...

Do you know how many echoes today are filled with information only about what files are distributed via your hopelessly outdated star system?

I mean, like, robots sending info about what now has been reduced to something of no real interest, save from a handful of eager followers. How long will you try to uphold this myth of importance? Really? Just asking...

After all, every *C is supposed to (according to P4) make nodediffs and fidonews available, what else of such importance are you dealing with, with this plethora of roboechoes?


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--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
* Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)

Paul who? Just joking Paul is my RC and a friend who have a chat every now and again especially if my system burps.

20+ years back my system was in the Philippines till I shut it down.

Terry

On Feb 04, 2022 03:57pm, Bj”rn Felten wrote to Terry Roati:

* Origin: The File Bank BBS! (3:640/1321)

I knew that I have seen this net address somewhere. You're on the
same net as one of my oldest Fido friends, Paul Quinn. I think that
we still have a direct connection -- netmail as well as echomail.

Just FYI... :)

..

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125 * Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)

... Platinum Xpress & Wildcat!..... Nice!!!!
--- Platinum Xpress/Win/WINServer v7.0
* Origin: The File Bank BBS! (3:640/1321)

On 2022 Feb 05 06:59:48, you wrote to me:

there is also the STATS echo where some systems post their various
stats...

Do you know how many echoes today are filled with information only
about what files are distributed via your hopelessly outdated star
system?

1. if you have a complaint about them, you should talk to their moderators/maintainers...

2. the meshed stars distribution system has nothing to do with them other than carrying their traffic as requested by their moderators...

3. the meshed stars distribution system is a message distribution system... it has nothing to do with the distribution of FDNs... some meshed star systems /may/ also be members of some FDNs and distribute their files but that is a completely separate hat from the message distribution hat(s)...

I mean, like, robots sending info about what now has been reduced to something of no real interest, save from a handful of eager followers.

kinda sounds almost exactly like the fidonews letter ;)

How long will you try to uphold this myth of importance? Really? Just asking...

no one is doing anything like you suggest... if you perceive such, it is a personal problem and one of projection...

After all, every *C is supposed to (according to P4) make nodediffs
and fidonews available,

yeah, and... your problem is??

what else of such importance are you dealing with, with this plethora
of roboechoes?

talk to their moderators... they are the ones that created them... you might should also talk to all the operators that have configured their systems to post those announcements in those areas... they are the ones keeping them loaded with traffic... your argument is with those two groups, not the messengers carrying the traffic...

)\/(ark

"The soul of a small kitten in the body of a mighty dragon. Look on my majesty, ye mighty, and despair! Or bring me catnip. Your choice. Oooh, a shiny thing!"
... More prosaic than the Holy Grail, but then most things are.
---
* Origin: (1:3634/12.73)