On 01-02-23 00:10, Fidonews Robot <=-
spoke to All about FidoNews 40:01 [02/08]: G <=-

IPv6 in 2022
By Michiel van der Vlist, 2:280/5555

Then again, many may already have native IPv6 from their ISP without
being aware of it. ISPs and sofware developers try to make the trans- ition from IPv4 to IPv6 invisible for the normal user. If one is not looking for it, one may not see it. Even Fidonet sysops may miss it.

That may be true for me (or not). I do not seem to have any choice in
the matter -- I take whatever they give me.

OS's had IPv6 support for wel over a decade. Surf to www.kame.net
and if you see the turtle swim, you have IPv6.

I did that. Not only did I not see a turtle swim, I saw no action on
the web site since 2010.

Dale Shipp
fido_261_1466 (at) verizon (dot) net
(1:261/1466)


... Shipwrecked in Silver Spring, Maryland. 01:31:34, 02 Jan 2022
___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30

--- Maximus/NT 3.01
* Origin: Owl's Anchor (1:261/1466)

Hello Dale,

On Monday January 02 2023 01:28, you wrote to Fidonews Robot:

Then again, many may already have native IPv6 from their ISP
without being aware of it. ISPs and sofware developers try to
make the trans- ition from IPv4 to IPv6 invisible for the normal
user. If one is not looking for it, one may not see it. Even
Fidonet sysops may miss it.

That may be true for me (or not). I do not seem to have any choice in
the matter -- I take whatever they give me.

You do not have a choice regading "they"? Here I can choose between several ISPs.

OS's had IPv6 support for wel over a decade. Surf to www.kame.net
and if you see the turtle swim, you have IPv6.

I did that. Not only did I not see a turtle swim,

Then you do not have IPv6. Most likely because your ISP does not support it. he.net still offers tunnels free of charge...

I saw no action on the web site since 2010.

That web site has indeed not been updated recently and it probably never will. The KAME project is shelved. I selected that web site because it provides a quick and reliable indication of IPv6 capability.


Cheers, Michiel

--- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
* Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)

Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Dale Shipp <=-

Then again, many may already have native IPv6 from their ISP
without being aware of it. ISPs and sofware developers try to
make the trans- ition from IPv4 to IPv6 invisible for the normal
user. If one is not looking for it, one may not see it. Even
Fidonet sysops may miss it.

That may be true for me (or not). I do not seem to have any choice in
the matter -- I take whatever they give me.

You do not have a choice regading "they"? Here I can choose
between several ISPs.

He probably does not have a choice, just like I don't. At least, if you
want broadband (cable) internet access. There is only one BIG cable
company in my area, maybe a couple of much smaller ones, but they only
serve limited, specific neighborhoods. Effectively, the large cable
company has a monopoly.

OS's had IPv6 support for wel over a decade. Surf to www.kame.net
and if you see the turtle swim, you have IPv6.

I did that. Not only did I not see a turtle swim,

Then you do not have IPv6. Most likely because your ISP does not
support it. he.net still offers tunnels free of charge...

But.... what does that tunnel, or IPv6 in general, offer me that I don't already have? I have excellent internet access without it. It won't
give me any more speed or bandwidth. So why do I need it?

I know.... eventually.... yeah. But until then, assuming that ever even actually happens, it's not needed.


... AAcckk!! II''mm iinn hhaallff dduupplleexx
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On 01-02-23 14:00, Michiel Van Der Vlist <=-
spoke to Dale Shipp about FidoNews 40:01 [02/0 <=-

Then again, many may already have native IPv6 from their ISP
without being aware of it. ISPs and sofware developers try to
make the trans- ition from IPv4 to IPv6 invisible for the normal
user. If one is not looking for it, one may not see it. Even
Fidonet sysops may miss it.

That may be true for me (or not). I do not seem to have any choice in
the matter -- I take whatever they give me.

MVDV> You do not have a choice regading "they"? Here I can choose
MVDV> between several ISPs.

No choice unless I pay an extra US$60 per month, and not any assurance
that ISP would supply it.

OS's had IPv6 support for wel over a decade. Surf to www.kame.net
and if you see the turtle swim, you have IPv6.

I did that. Not only did I not see a turtle swim,

MVDV> Then you do not have IPv6. Most likely because your ISP
MVDV> does not support it. he.net still offers tunnels free of
MVDV> charge...

I had never heard of them before. I took a quick look and could not
find out how to connect or sign up with them. OTOH -- I don't really
care all that much. My current ISP provides reliable connections for
whatever I need.

Dale Shipp
fido_261_1466 (at) verizon (dot) net
(1:261/1466)




... Shipwrecked in Silver Spring, Maryland. 00:31:59, 03 Jan 2022
___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30

--- Maximus/NT 3.01
* Origin: Owl's Anchor (1:261/1466)

Hello Dale,

On Tuesday January 03 2023 00:24, you wrote to me:

MVDV>> You do not have a choice regading "they"? Here I can choose
MVDV>> between several ISPs.

No choice unless I pay an extra US$60 per month, and not any assurance that ISP would supply it.

I simply ask what they have to offer before making a choice. But.. $60 a month is too much of a difference for just IPv6 I'd say.

MVDV>> Then you do not have IPv6. Most likely because your ISP
MVDV>> does not support it. he.net still offers tunnels free of
MVDV>> charge...

I had never heard of them before.

Then you have not read my pevious articles. ;-)

I took a quick look and could not find out how to connect or sign up
with them.

https://tunnelbroker.net/ Just click on "sign up now".

OTOH -- I don't really care all that much. My current ISP provides reliable connections for whatever I need.

What happened to that pioneer spirit that once made Fidonet so great?


Cheers, Michiel

--- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
* Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)

Hello Dan,

On Monday January 02 2023 08:38, you wrote to me:

Then you do not have IPv6. Most likely because your ISP does not
support it. he.net still offers tunnels free of charge...

But.... what does that tunnel, or IPv6 in general, offer me that I
don't already have?

A tunnel offers those who do not have native IPv6 from their ISP the opportunity to experiment with new technology. Like we did in the early days of Fidonet when the pioneer spirit was still dominant.

I have excellent internet access without it. It won't give me any
more speed or bandwidth. So why do I need it?

What happened to that pioneer spirit? In the early days of Fidonet did you ever ask "do I really need this"? Or did you just go ahead and tried out new technology?

I know.... eventually.... yeah. But until then, assuming that ever
even actually happens, it's not needed.

It will happen and it will be in the foreseeable future. Simple math will tell you that there is not enough IPv4 to cover the needs of an expanding internet. With a bit of luck you and I will live to see it.


Cheers, Michiel

--- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
* Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)

On 03 Jan 23 11:36:20, Michiel Van Der Vlist said the following to Dan Clough:

What happened to that pioneer spirit? In the early days of Fidonet did you ever ask "do I really need this"? Or did you just go ahead and tried out ne technology?

That all ended the moment you and a few others of your suspender-snapping DNA morphed from an encouraging "pioneer spirit" to a fascist "nodelist police".

Can't wait for you to make your grand departure, the endless whining about
IPV6 can finally be given a rest. Nobody gives a shit, and if we had to work with it, we will, without the two cents from an effeminate techno-dick desperate to put his signature on something.

Lots of Linux guys here who eat this nonsense for breakfast, I'm not worried.

And... newsflash - a major ISP here continues to dish out IPV4 to customers like candy to children on Halloween. Totally contrary to what you were trying to shove down my throat a decade ago when I disagreed with your cute little assessment of Canadian ISP's. Or was that just your "pioneer spirit" ?

Nick

--- Renegade vY2Ka2
* Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)

On 02 Jan 23 08:38:00, Dan Clough said the following to Michiel Van Der Vlist:

He probably does not have a choice, just like I don't. At least, if you want broadband (cable) internet access. There is only one BIG cable

Please nevermind the techno-dick, he's been whining about IPV6 for so long its lost any interest. Just another busybody widower with no life and no purpose.

According to him, if you're on IPV4, "you suck" because you won't play the tunnel game or whatever convoluted nonsense to be one of the kewl kids.

A lack of IPV6 means you don't have any pioneer spirit, no matter how much
you spend per month on your ISP or hydroelectric bill to run a weird little messaging network nobody but a handful of people in the entire world actually heard of or care about.

And he definately knows more about American and Canadian ISP's than you do.

Better show some respect!

Nick

--- Renegade vY2Ka2
* Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)

Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Dan Clough <=-

Then you do not have IPv6. Most likely because your ISP does not
support it. he.net still offers tunnels free of charge...

But.... what does that tunnel, or IPv6 in general, offer me that I
don't already have?

A tunnel offers those who do not have native IPv6 from their ISP
the opportunity to experiment with new technology. Like we did in
the early days of Fidonet when the pioneer spirit was still
dominant.

Yes... but the real question there above is what does *IPv6* offer me
that I don't already have?

Also, it's got nothing to do with "pioneer spirit". It's not new
technology, it's just a different way of addressing an ethernet port.

I have excellent internet access without it. It won't give me any
more speed or bandwidth. So why do I need it?

What happened to that pioneer spirit? In the early days of
Fidonet did you ever ask "do I really need this"? Or did you just
go ahead and tried out new technology?

You did not answer the question that was asked. WHY DO I NEED IT?

In the early days of Fidonet, the "new" stuff was *NEEDED* just to
participate in the network. IPv6 is *NOT* needed to use Fidonet. Can
you see the difference there? I'll ask you again - why would I need
IPv6 if my current connections (IPv4) are working fine? Just answer
*THAT*, without any deflecting/diverging.

I know.... eventually.... yeah. But until then, assuming that ever
even actually happens, it's not needed.

It will happen and it will be in the foreseeable future. Simple
math will tell you that there is not enough IPv4 to cover the
needs of an expanding internet. With a bit of luck you and I will
live to see it.

Simple math also tells me that as (some) people move to using IPv6, that
will free up IPv4 addresses that they no longer need. Therefore "replenishing" the pool of available addresses. Simple, no?

You would have a little more credibility in your fanatical claims as to
why people should be using IPv6, if you would just *ONCE* answer the
questions as to what benefit it actually provides to somebody. Oh, and
also realize that it's got nothing to do with any "pioneer spirit".


... All the easy problems have been solved.
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Nick Andre wrote to Dan Clough <=-

On 02 Jan 23 08:38:00, Dan Clough said the following to Michiel
Van Der Vlist:

He probably does not have a choice, just like I don't. At least, if you want broadband (cable) internet access. There is only one BIG cable

Please nevermind the techno-dick, he's been whining about IPV6
for so long its lost any interest. Just another busybody widower
with no life and no purpose.

According to him, if you're on IPV4, "you suck" because you won't
play the tunnel game or whatever convoluted nonsense to be one of
the kewl kids.

A lack of IPV6 means you don't have any pioneer spirit, no matter
how much you spend per month on your ISP or hydroelectric bill to
run a weird little messaging network nobody but a handful of
people in the entire world actually heard of or care about.

I just replied to him again, asking for an actual *ANSWER* to my
questions. My take on all of this is that I'll worry about IPv6 when
(if?) it becomes something I need to worry about.

And he definately knows more about American and Canadian ISP's
than you do.

Oh yes, like all Euro-boys do. They're so smart!

Better show some respect!

;-)



... He does the work of 3 Men...Moe, Larry & Curly
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Hello Dan!

02 Jan 23 08:38, Dan Clough wrote to Michiel van der Vlist:

But.... what does that tunnel, or IPv6 in general, offer me that I
don't
already have? I have excellent internet access without it. It won't give me any more speed or bandwidth. So why do I need it?

I know.... eventually.... yeah. But until then, assuming that ever
even
actually happens, it's not needed.

This is probably very dependent on where you live, and what your IP-connections look like. And what you want your computers to be able to do or connect to. Just a few words about this from this neck of the wood:
I have subscribed for FTTH lately. This is something you definitely want if you live around here, because the alternative is continuing to use DSL over the existing copper telephone lines. It does 100MBit for me now and could probably do 150MBit or so, but it's definitely not future-proof.
It will certainly take a few months (maybe even one or two years) until FTTH materialises. Living in a rural area, there will be only one company offering this due to the rather high investment involved (digging fibres into the ground, making new connections to all houses etc.). The company doing this here (funny enough, it's a Dutch company) will only offer a so-called DS-lite stack to private customers, basically meaning you get an IPv6 address and automatic tunneling magic to reach any IPv4 address around the world. You will also be able to offer services (like binkd) on your IPv6 address, but without any further intervention this will be unreachable for other people running just from an IPv4 address.

Most people probably won't care much, because they don't offer any services from their homes. However, FTN nodes need exactly this. So, depending on what other systems I want to connect to my FTN system, I'll have to check in advance that they can access IPv6 addresses, or I'll have to think about getting an extra tunnel or portmapping tool running to provide IPv4 accessability. It's a bit like in the old POTS days when you knew that some people had a certain brand of modem (or a certain firmware installed) that would be incompatible with other systems.

Does this all matter to you? Well, this totally depends on which systems you want to connect to. The more systems out there only offer IPv6, the smaller your world will become.


Regards,
Gerrit

... 4:17PM up 286 days, 22:23, 7 users, load averages: 1.73, 0.94, 0.71

--- msged/fbsd 6.3 2021-12-02
* Origin: We're telling tales of communication (2:240/12)

Gerrit Kuehn wrote to Dan Clough <=-

02 Jan 23 08:38, Dan Clough wrote to Michiel van der Vlist:

But.... what does that tunnel, or IPv6 in general, offer me that I
don't
already have? I have excellent internet access without it. It won't
give me any more speed or bandwidth. So why do I need it?

I know.... eventually.... yeah. But until then, assuming that ever
even
actually happens, it's not needed.

This is probably very dependent on where you live, and what your IP-connections look like. And what you want your computers to be
able to do or connect to. Just a few words about this from this
neck of the wood: I have subscribed for FTTH lately. This is
something you definitely want if you live around here, because
the alternative is continuing to use DSL over the existing copper telephone lines. It does 100MBit for me now and could probably do
150MBit or so, but it's definitely not future-proof. It will
certainly take a few months (maybe even one or two years) until
FTTH materialises. Living in a rural area, there will be only one
company offering this due to the rather high investment involved
(digging fibres into the ground, making new connections to all
houses etc.). The company doing this here (funny enough, it's a
Dutch company) will only offer a so-called DS-lite stack to
private customers, basically meaning you get an IPv6 address and
automatic tunneling magic to reach any IPv4 address around the
world. You will also be able to offer services (like binkd) on
your IPv6 address, but without any further intervention this will
be unreachable for other people running just from an IPv4
address.

Most people probably won't care much, because they don't offer
any services from their homes. However, FTN nodes need exactly
this. So, depending on what other systems I want to connect to my
FTN system, I'll have to check in advance that they can access
IPv6 addresses, or I'll have to think about getting an extra
tunnel or portmapping tool running to provide IPv4 accessability.
It's a bit like in the old POTS days when you knew that some
people had a certain brand of modem (or a certain firmware
installed) that would be incompatible with other systems.

Does this all matter to you? Well, this totally depends on which
systems you want to connect to. The more systems out there only
offer IPv6, the smaller your world will become.

Very good points, some of which I hadn't thought much about. Thanks for
the info, and for a civilized reply, which is becoming a rarity here in
this echo.

Just for the fanatics in the crowd, try to understand that I have
nothing *AGAINST* IPv6, but am not rushing around to get it via some half-assed "tunnel" just because some of you think it's cool. If/when
my ISP offers that service, I'll take advantage of it. Until then, I'm
not gonna worry about it.



... Nothing is so smiple that it can't get screwed up.
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Hello Michiel!

03 Jan 23 19:39, Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Gerrit Kuehn:


MvdV> Running an IPv6 only node is doable. Read my Fidonews articles
MvdV> about my DS-Lite emulation experiments.

Thanks for the pointers. I might consider this once I see a date when this all is going to happen. However, I have more issues to solve (apart from FTN stuff). These will probably require some kind of IPv4 address, anyway.

MvdV> Here is where feste-ip.net may come to the rescue.

Yes, that's one option. I havn't looked into it long enough to understand if this would solve all my issues (and at which cost). I might be more effective to rent some vserver including an IPv4 address and set up the required NAT and mapping there. Among other things, I'd also like to keep accessability of my home network from my workplace (which is, up no now and for all foreseeable future, an v4-only outfit).

MvdV> As of today there are just five systems in the Fidonet nodelist
MvdV> that fly the INO4 flag. That number may or may not grow
MvdV> substantially in the near future.

Nobody knows. Thanks to this DSlite "solution", there may be more people facing these issues around here rather sooner than later.


Regards,
Gerrit

... 9:19PM up 287 days, 3:25, 7 users, load averages: 0.52, 0.50, 0.50

--- msged/fbsd 6.3 2021-12-02
* Origin: We are the second generation (2:240/12)

Hello Dan,

On Tuesday January 03 2023 08:04, you wrote to me:

Yes... but the real question there above is what does *IPv6* offer me
that I don't already have?

On the risk that you will respond with "I don't need that", here are some points:

1) Getting rid of NAT. With IPv6 it will be back to how Internet was originally designed: as a peer to peer network with full end to end connectivity.

2) Running multiple servers without the need for non standard ports. Every server can have its own public routable address. Instead of one, you will at least have 2^64 public routable addresses at you disposal.

3) Connect to IPv6 only systems.

Also, it's got nothing to do with "pioneer spirit". It's not new technology, it's just a different way of addressing an ethernet port.

Semantics. it is something new (for you at least, not for me I have been dealing with it for over a decade). And exploring new things - without needing it, but just because it is there is what pioneer spirit is about.

I have excellent internet access without it. It won't give me
any more speed or bandwidth. So why do I need it?

I can not answer that question. I do not know what you need, only you can decide what you need.

In the early days of Fidonet, the "new" stuff was *NEEDED* just to participate in the network.

Was it? Did you really NEED a 9600 Bps modem or was - with "free" local calls - a 2400 Bps modem good enough for the next five years?

IPv6 is *NOT* needed to use Fidonet.

Not yet anyway and maybe not for a long time to come.

Can you see the difference there?

No. In Fidonet exploring new technology was never based on "need". At least not for me. I explored new ways just because the opportunity was there.

I'll ask you again - why would I need IPv6 if my current connections (IPv4) are working fine? Just answer *THAT*, without any deflecting/diverging.

What you /need/ can only be judged by you yourself. If you are not interested in exploring IPv6, why do you respond at all? Why not simply hit the "next" key?

It will happen and it will be in the foreseeable future. Simple
math will tell you that there is not enough IPv4 to cover the
needs of an expanding internet. With a bit of luck you and I
will live to see it.

Simple math also tells me that as (some) people move to using IPv6,
that will free up IPv4 addresses that they no longer need. Therefore "replenishing" the pool of available addresses. Simple, no?

No. Because that is not how it works. People moving to IPv6 do not just release there IPv4 address. When they can they will keep that because in most cases they have a use for it to connect to systems that are still IPv4 only. Only when "everyone" in the world has IPv6 will there be no need any more for IPv4. So for some time to come IPv4 will remain active in paralell with IPv6.

You would have a little more credibility in your fanatical claims as
to why people should be using IPv6, if you would just *ONCE* answer
the questions as to what benefit it actually provides to somebody.
Oh, and also realize that it's got nothing to do with any "pioneer spirit".

Why would I do that? Over the years I have written well over a dozen Fidonews articles about IPv6. If that wasn't enough to get you interested, why should I spent any more time and energy to get you on board? As of today, the Fidonet IPv6 club has 108 members. My educated guess is that it is between a quarter and half of the active systems in Fidonet. If you are not interested in IPv6, so be it. Fidonet will survive with you joining the IPv6 club.


Cheers, Michiel

--- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
* Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)

Yes... but the real question there above is what does *IPv6* offer me
that I don't already have?

I thing that IPv6 gives you that IPv4 does not is that if you have multiple machines at home each one can answer on the default port. Every machine can answer on 24554 for example because each machine has a unique IP.

That doesn't happen with IPv4. I don't have IPv6 either.

The above is not something that most people will care about since most people don't run any services at home or very little but it is something I look forward too.

IPv6 is not some bleeding edge technology but the IPv4 space has been exhausted and we need to make this change, sooner would be better than later.

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-6
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)

Alan Ianson wrote to Dan Clough <=-

Yes... but the real question there above is what does *IPv6* offer me
that I don't already have?

I thing that IPv6 gives you that IPv4 does not is that if you
have multiple machines at home each one can answer on the default
port. Every machine can answer on 24554 for example because each
machine has a unique IP.

That is indeed a useful thing.

The above is not something that most people will care about since
most people don't run any services at home or very little but it
is something I look forward too.

Agreed, and same here.

IPv6 is not some bleeding edge technology but the IPv4 space has
been exhausted and we need to make this change, sooner would be
better than later.

As I tried to tell Michiel, I am not arguing *AGAINST* the progression
to IPv6. It's just that it's not currently available to me, and I see
no reason to jump through hoops for it at this time (like using a
"tunnel"). When it becomes readily available, I'll start using it.

I think maybe I'm just "anti-evangelism". I don't like being preached
to about how I should be doing something that doesn't make sense to me.
Michiel is a little too........... preachy, for me.



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As I tried to tell Michiel, I am not arguing *AGAINST* the progression
to IPv6. It's just that it's not currently available to me, and I see
no reason to jump through hoops for it at this time (like using a
"tunnel"). When it becomes readily available, I'll start using it.

Yes, same here. I can connect with evey node I need to connect with so a tunnel would only add complexity and I don't need that.

There is a down side to IPv6. There are machines and systems in use that don't an never will support IPv6. I think that is what is holding up IPv6.

A dual stack of IPv6 and IPv4 will likely be needed for some time.

There are folks who don't have IPv4 now, I don't know what the numbers are but we really do need to move that way. IPv4's days are numbered.

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-6
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)

Dan,

I think maybe I'm just "anti-evangelism". I don't like being preached
to about how I should be doing something that doesn't make sense to me. Michiel is a little too........... preachy, for me.

Try to look at it from a different angle.

Michiel in real life "is" a nice guy. I've met him several times, he's not a bully but soft-spoken, always available for advice and an opinion, even when not requested. Michiel will have an opinion on everything and he probably also wants his say on the "how to hang the roll with toilet paper" debate.

To be fair, he has gotten on my nerves sometimes too by that behaviour but in the end he's not dictating on how to do things, merely offering ways in how to do achieve that.

Same with Wilfred Van Velzen and the "nodelist police" thing. Maybe it would have been better if it wasn't so obvious and with another name.

Eventually I decided to view it as a resource and not as an annoyance. It works. An example. In some of my administrative nodelist-entries I have the IMI-flag ... just like that ... while the FTSC-definition calls for "IMI:email-address". Both Michiel and Wilfred (and a Russian sysop) drew my attention to it. It has been there for ages, I've had maybe 5 IMI-calls the last 10 years so it's not really life-threatening..

I could have reacted with a "suck my dick" kind of profanity or recognize that, although a minor issue, he/they were right and deal with it. So those entries are in the process of being updated and as a result the quality of the nodelist is enhanced.

The opposition which Michiel draws is of the type "I know you are right, but I don't like you".

Is he right about IPv6? Yups, he is ... all available IPv4 blocks have been alotted years ago. It cannot be denied. There is already hardware reaching the market such as smart-TVs, intelligent watches, domotica which doesn't understand IPv4 anymore. For years Michiel also encouraged me to walk the IPv6 path and when I answered I'd only have time in another 6 months, he'd be there like a well oiled Swiss clockwork 6 months later. Eventually IPv6 reached my household without even me knowing, Michiel inspired me to log-in into the router and dive into the configuration menus. Guess what "there was IPv6 staring me in the face" and then he was very accomodating to help with advice until it worked. Now I make nothing of it, IPv6 is the primary method here with IPv4 the fall back.

If you have ever seen the "Last Lecture" speech from professor Randy Pausch at Carnegie Mellon, then you will remember one of his statements. He encouraged his audience to be patient with others. "Wait long enough, and people will surprise and impress you."

Michiel's a good guy ... well intended ... used to the Dutch "Polder Model" where people will discuss a lot without by definition becoming aggressive but focussed on solving the issue. That's how the Dutch over years have managed to keep their finger in the dyke and save their country, which for a significant part lies below sea-level, from flooding.

Take care,

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - MidniteSpecial
* Origin: Many Glacier - Preserve / Protect / Conserve (2:292/854)

Hello Gerrit,

On Tuesday January 03 2023 21:19, you wrote to me:

MvdV>> Running an IPv6 only node is doable. Read my Fidonews articles
MvdV>> about my DS-Lite emulation experiments.

Thanks for the pointers. I might consider this once I see a date when
this all is going to happen. However, I have more issues to solve
(apart from FTN stuff). These will probably require some kind of IPv4 address, anyway.

We will have to learn to live with it. We can't do completely without IPv4 yet, but it is unavoidable that at some point in time those needing a public IPv4 adress will have to jump through some loops and/or make extra cost. There just isn't enough fo everyone.

MvdV>> Here is where feste-ip.net may come to the rescue.

Yes, that's one option. I havn't looked into it long enough to
understand if this would solve all my issues (and at which cost).

Mapping just one port is EUR 5 / year. But they offer more than just that at additional cost.

I might be more effective to rent some vserver including an IPv4
address and set up the required NAT and mapping there.

There is more than one road that leads to Rome. Be aware that ever more VPS host start charging extra for IPv4.

Among other things, I'd also like to keep accessability of my home
network from my workplace (which is, up no now and for all foreseeable future, an v4-only outfit).

Time to start exerting some pressure on your boss to implement IPv6 on his side. ;-)

MvdV>> As of today there are just five systems in the Fidonet nodelist
MvdV>> that fly the INO4 flag. That number may or may not grow
MvdV>> substantially in the near future.

Nobody knows. Thanks to this DSlite "solution", there may be more
people facing these issues around here rather sooner than later.

We are all to blame for that. The transition from IPv4 to IPv6 should have been completed /before/ the well of IPv4 addresses ran dry. There is no easy solution for the mess that we are in now. We will just have to make the best of it.


Cheers, Michiel

--- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
* Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)

Hello Alan,

On Tuesday January 03 2023 15:25, you wrote to Dan Clough:

I thing that IPv6 gives you that IPv4 does not is that if you have multiple machines at home each one can answer on the default port.
Every machine can answer on 24554 for example because each machine has
a unique IP.

I actually have a second system running running on the same hardware as my main system that I use for testing. It is not in the nodelist, but it has an IPv6 address of its own and it is on-line and reachable. f5556.vlist.eu.

That doesn't happen with IPv4. I don't have IPv6 either.

Then you can not connect to my test system, it does not have a public IPv4 address. I could set it up to respond at a diffeent port on IPv4 but I choose not to.

IPv6 is not some bleeding edge technology but the IPv4 space has been exhausted and we need to make this change, sooner would be better than later.

Actually we should have finished the transition ten years ago. Now we have to make the best of what we have got.


Cheers, Michiel

--- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
* Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)

Hello Dan,

On Tuesday January 03 2023 18:42, you wrote to Alan Ianson:

I think maybe I'm just "anti-evangelism". I don't like being preached
to about how I should be doing something that doesn't make sense to
me. Michiel is a little too........... preachy, for me.

There is an easy solution to that: just ignore me. If you had not jumped in in my exchange of ideas with Dale Shipp, I would never have bothered you.


Cheers, Michiel

--- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
* Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)

Hello Alan,

On Tuesday January 03 2023 17:17, you wrote to Dan Clough:

There is a down side to IPv6. There are machines and systems in use
that don't an never will support IPv6. I think that is what is holding
up IPv6.

Those IPv4 only systems are not holding up IPv6, but they are holding up the step that will eventually follow: the shutting down of IPv4. For some time to come we will have Dual Stack to keep suppoting the IPv4 ony systems but there will come a time when manufacturers and ISP will stop supporting IPv6. After all keeping two sytems active next to each other is double effort. Chine is aiming for IPv6 only in 2030.

https://www.theregister.com/2021/07/26/china_single_stack_ipv6_notice/

A dual stack of IPv6 and IPv4 will likely be needed for some time.

Yes. But in the end those IPv4 only systems will go to the museum or to the shredder. Like the punch card and the floppy disk.

There are folks who don't have IPv4 now, I don't know what the numbers
are but we really do need to move that way. IPv4's days are numbered.

How about yourself? What does you ISP say about it? Maybe they already offer IPv6 but you need a new modem/router to make use if it...


Cheers, Michiel

--- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
* Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)

Hello Dale,

On Wednesday January 04 2023 01:03, you wrote to me:

108 is a little bit less than one eighth of the active systems [ref fidonews weekly report].

There is a difference between "active" systems and "listed" systems. There is a LOT of dead wood in the nodelist and many systems are listed more than once. Those 910 nodes listed in nodelist.364 are an extremely optimistic representation of reality. I would say that the reality is that fidonet has no more than a few hundred active sysops.

The nodes listed in the IPv6 list are all active nodes. I periodically do spot checks to see if they are alive. When they are dead and remain dead for a couple of weeks, they are removed from the list.

As to your statements about pioneer spirit -- I don't care about
transport things so long as they work. What I care about in Fidonet
is echomail content.

Then why did you respond to my article?


Cheers, Michiel

--- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
* Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)

I actually have a second system running running on the same hardware as my main system that I use for testing. It is not in the nodelist, but it has an IPv6 address of its own and it is on-line and reachable. f5556.vlist.eu.

That doesn't happen with IPv4. I don't have IPv6 either.

Then you can not connect to my test system, it does not have a public IPv4 address. I could set it up to respond at a diffeent port on IPv4 but I choose not to.

Yes, it's unfortunate but this does happen, and it is going to happen more and more.

Actually we should have finished the transition ten years ago. Now we have to make the best of what we have got.

I agree, I don't understand why ISPs here in the west are not ahead of this.

Money could be a part of it. I think there are large numbers of routers in the wild that don't support IPv6 so they will need to be changed. There will be a cost for that.

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-6
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)

There are folks who don't have IPv4 now, I don't know what the numbers
are but we really do need to move that way. IPv4's days are numbered.

How about yourself? What does you ISP say about it? Maybe they already offer IPv6 but you need a new modem/router to make use if it...

My router does support IPv6 as far as I know, I have never been able to try it out and see. I see a spot in the setup for an IPv6 prefix but it is blank.

In large centers like Vancouver IPv6 is available. Those that want to use it need supporting hardware.

I live out in the boonies of BC in a small town. There may not be IPv6 on the wire here and that might be the reason I don't get IPv6 here.

I have my eyes on IPv6 and will set it up when it arrives here.

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-6
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)

On 04 Jan 23 11:02:24, Ward Dossche said the following to Dan Clough:

Michiel is a little too........... preachy, for me.

Try to look at it from a different angle.

I have tried Ward and I have failed to become impressed.

I have failed, because that person has failed to impress ME.

And I give everyone one chance. Objectiveness, fair, open-minded, my trust, you name it. I've sent Sysops money, computers, source code, I've lost count how many hours I've put into that silly mailer, how many times Sean Dennis calls because he needs someone to talk to... We won't get into how many times you and I have traded silly Netmails because we are friends. We have trust.

Now that chance is immediately and forever blown when someone acts towards me like a techno-dick (preachy/lecturing on tech I don't care jack-shit to hear
or insisting its SOOOOOO important) or calling me a liar (as that "soft
spoken" person did with his incorrect assessment of IPV4 in Canada a decade ago) or generally just behaving in a weird douchebag way.

Preachy techno-dick nonsense doesn't sit well with me because I've been in IT in a professional capacity for 25+ years. I've worked with IT managers who talk a great game but know shit about PC repair-101. I've worked with bench techs who can barely speak English but work magic with Linux. And I've worked with many who claimed blahblahblah tech will be blahblahblah popular and they were (and are) clearly WRONG... Myspace, Microsoft Zune, Bitcoin and IPV6.

Chances are also immediately blown when a person goes out of their way to be vindictive, trolling, making cute little passive-aggressive remarks... and starting that stupid "nodelist police" echo ONLY after I outright refused to be a dictator to RC's. Thats the only reason you enjoy that echo. You have me to thank for that. It was created because I refuse to take marching-orders
from a passive-aggressive Dutch techno-dick with no balls and no life.

So I will celebrate their grand departures wholeheartedly and I guarantee the overall tone of the network will be vastly improved without techno-dicks or douchebags or a troll lecturing about America from behind a Swedish keyboard.

I do not give second chances, I do not look past their odd mannerisms or shrug it off as a "cultural thing", I will not see things from their point of view.

I have always played fair with everyone. They have never played fair with me.

An asshole is an asshole in any language.

Nick

--- Renegade vY2Ka2
* Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)

On 04 Jan 23 19:38:24, Lee Lofaso said the following to Nick Andre:

All right! No more nodes! I'm a sysop! I'm a sysop!
Glory glory hallelujah, I'm a sysop!

The troll says what?

Nick

--- Renegade vY2Ka2
* Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)

Hello Ward,

[..]

If you have ever seen the "Last Lecture" speech from professor Randy Pausch
at Carnegie Mellon, then you will remember one of his statements. He encouraged his audience to be patient with others. "Wait long enough, and people will surprise and impress you."

Please.
Repeat after me -

Trump is always right.
Trump is always right.
Trump is always right.

Do realize that Trump is never wrong. And he never apologizes.
For anything.

There was one time he tried to apologize.
But he changed his mind, so that didn't count.

So just remember -

Trump is always right.
Trump is always right.
Trump is always right.

Folks in Italy had a similar saying before and during WWII -

Il Duce is right.
Il Duce is right.
Il Duce is right.

If you compare film of Il Duce and Trump, you will notice the many
similarites shared by the two of them. Same gestures, type of speech,
visions of grandeur ...

For Life,
Lee

--
Drive One

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)

Hello Nick,

What happened to that pioneer spirit? In the early days of Fidonet did

you

ever ask "do I really need this"? Or did you just go ahead and tried out

ne

technology?

That all ended the moment you and a few others of your suspender-snapping DNA
morphed from an encouraging "pioneer spirit" to a fascist "nodelist police".

All right! No more nodes! I'm a sysop! I'm a sysop!
Glory glory hallelujah, I'm a sysop!

Can't wait for you to make your grand departure, the endless whining about IPV6 can finally be given a rest. Nobody gives a shit, and if we had to work
with it, we will, without the two cents from an effeminate techno-dick desperate to put his signature on something.

Bureaucracy is the greatest invention of mankind since the wheel!
While Tom Jennings took credit for creating Fidonet, the real work
began with the inventor of the nodelist, putting Tom Jennings and
all the other nodes in their proper place.

With the grand departure of all those nodelist clerks, what will be
left of Fidonet is sysops. Real sysops rather than nodelist clerks.

Lots of Linux guys here who eat this nonsense for breakfast, I'm not worried.

There are 8 billion potential customers. All wanting the same thing
at the same time. With no nodelist clerks around to update the nodelist,
will breakfast even be served?

And... newsflash - a major ISP here continues to dish out IPV4 to customers
like candy to children on Halloween. Totally contrary to what you were trying
to shove down my throat a decade ago when I disagreed with your cute little
assessment of Canadian ISP's. Or was that just your "pioneer spirit" ?

If only the King of England would apologize to Cajuns and allow
them to return home to Acadie then you would realize the need for
IPV6.

For Life,
Lee

--
It Ain't Payday If It Ain't Nuts In Your Mouth

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)

On 01-04-23 13:55, Michiel Van Der Vlist <=-
spoke to Dale Shipp about FidoNews 40:01 [02/0 <=-

As to your statements about pioneer spirit -- I don't care about
transport things so long as they work. What I care about in Fidonet
is echomail content.

MVDV> Then why did you respond to my article?

Simply to provide information in response to the statement that I quoted
at the time.

Dale Shipp
fido_261_1466 (at) verizon (dot) net
(1:261/1466)



... Shipwrecked in Silver Spring, Maryland. 00:42:29, 05 Jan 2022
___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30

--- Maximus/NT 3.01
* Origin: Owl's Anchor (1:261/1466)

On 01-04-23 11:02, Ward Dossche <=-
spoke to Dan Clough about Re: FidoNews 40:01 [02/0 <=-

opinion on everything and he probably also wants his say on
the "how to hang the roll with toilet paper" debate.

The answer to that is weighed by whether or not one has cats:-}}

Dale Shipp
fido_261_1466 (at) verizon (dot) net
(1:261/1466)


... Shipwrecked in Silver Spring, Maryland. 00:50:21, 05 Jan 2022
___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30

--- Maximus/NT 3.01
* Origin: Owl's Anchor (1:261/1466)

opinion on everything and he probably also wants his say on
the "how to hang the roll with toilet paper" debate.

The answer to that is weighed by whether or not one has cats:-}}

Holi macaroni ... I never looked at it that way ... however I have a toddler grandson who can reach that high ... found out the hard way it mimmicks a cat ... 8-)

Food for thought ... I intend to have a cat ... one day ... when I will be old.

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - MidniteSpecial
* Origin: Many Glacier - Preserve / Protect / Conserve (2:292/854)

Hello Dale,

On Thursday January 05 2023 00:39, you wrote to me:

MVDV>> Then why did you respond to my article?

Simply to provide information in response to the statement that I
quoted at the time.

OK...


Cheers, Michiel

--- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
* Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)

Hello Michiel,

[..]

As to your statements about pioneer spirit -- I don't care about
transport things so long as they work. What I care about in Fidonet
is echomail content.

MvdV> Then why did you respond to my article?

Echomail is just another flavor of netmail. So why shouldn't
participants quote content found in articles and newsletters?

For Life,
Lee

--
We! Reject! The president-nonelect!

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)

Hello Nick,

All right! No more nodes! I'm a sysop! I'm a sysop!
Glory glory hallelujah, I'm a sysop!

The troll says what?

An absent-minded self-appointed zone coordinator.
The one and only thing worse than an absent-minded professor.

For Life,
Lee

--
What beer drinkers drink when they're not drinking beer

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)

Hello Nick,

Michiel is a little too........... preachy, for me.

Try to look at it from a different angle.

I have tried Ward and I have failed to become impressed.

Michiel is Dutch. So he has a legitimate excuse.
A Flying Dutchman. With a ham radio license. Not
many of those around any more.

I have failed, because that person has failed to impress ME.

First you have to learn morse code.

And I give everyone one chance. Objectiveness, fair, open-minded, my trust,
you name it. I've sent Sysops money, computers, source code, I've lost count
how many hours I've put into that silly mailer, how many times Sean Dennis calls because he needs someone to talk to...

That explains it -

"I then got myself involved in a very unhealthy friendship that I
allowed to go on for too long that sucked the life out of me."
~ Sean Dennis, 1-4-2023

We won't get into how many times you and I have traded silly Netmails because we are friends. We have trust.

Better for you to follow Sean's example by saying it all in public.
I'll spare the details, as he lays it all out in the Cooking echo.

Now that chance is immediately and forever blown when someone acts towards me
like a techno-dick (preachy/lecturing on tech I don't care jack-shit to hear
or insisting its SOOOOOO important) or calling me a liar (as that "soft spoken" person did with his incorrect assessment of IPV4 in Canada a decade
ago) or generally just behaving in a weird douchebag way.

That is the first time I heard anybody call Sean a techno-dick.
But he does tend to go on and on and on about himself - usually
what happens be to be wrong with him at any given time. Along
with ad hominems towards me when he has too much Lee on his mind.

Preachy techno-dick nonsense doesn't sit well with me because I've been in IT
in a professional capacity for 25+ years. I've worked with IT managers who talk a great game but know shit about PC repair-101. I've worked with bench
techs who can barely speak English but work magic with Linux. And I've worked
with many who claimed blahblahblah tech will be blahblahblah popular and they
were (and are) clearly WRONG... Myspace, Microsoft Zune, Bitcoin and IPV6.

Donald Trump is a "stable genius" - he said so himself.
That should rule him out for being a techno-dick. Even if
he is never wrong.

Chances are also immediately blown when a person goes out of their way to be
vindictive, trolling, making cute little passive-aggressive remarks... and starting that stupid "nodelist police" echo ONLY after I outright refused to
be a dictator to RC's. Thats the only reason you enjoy that echo. You have me
to thank for that. It was created because I refuse to take marching-orders from a passive-aggressive Dutch techno-dick with no balls and no life.

Is that the only difference between Dutch techno-dicks and Canadian techno-dicks? And what about Cajun techno-dicks? Do they even count?

So I will celebrate their grand departures wholeheartedly and I guarantee the
overall tone of the network will be vastly improved without techno-dicks or
douchebags or a troll lecturing about America from behind a Swedish keyboard.

The keyboard I am using (at this moment) is made in China. I do not
even know if there is such a thing as a Swedish keyboard. But I do have
another keyboard that is made in the USA. It just has the wrong kind of
plug.

I do not give second chances, I do not look past their odd mannerisms or shrug it off as a "cultural thing", I will not see things from their
point of view.

I am sorry Sean dumped you. But there are other guys you can be with.
However, no more orgies for me. Far too old for that, so will have to
pass.

I have always played fair with everyone. They have never played fair with me.

Then come to the Mardi Gras! Spend some time on Bourbon Street!
If you prefer guys, dress as a drag queen on Peter Street!
Jim Morrison was both a god and a goddess in New Orleans before
he moved to Paris ...

An asshole is an asshole in any language.

One size fits all.

For Life,
Lee

--
We! Reject! The president-nonelect!

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)

Hello Alan,

On Wednesday January 04 2023 08:33, you wrote to me:

Then you can not connect to my test system, it does not have a public
IPv4 address. I could set it up to respond at a diffeent port on IPv4
but I choose not to.

Yes, it's unfortunate but this does happen, and it is going to happen
more and more.

The incumbents in North America still have a relatively large buffer of IPv4. For historic reasons. In Europe and Asia it is different. Newcomers are at a disadvantage as they have to buy IPv4 at the market. Some choose to stop offering public IPv4 adresses to thei customets. Like that fibre company that Gerrit mentioned.

Yes, we will see more of that in the future.

The ironie is that it is mostly an issue for those that do not have IPv6 yet. Those that already have it there is less of a problem.

Actually we should have finished the transition ten years ago. Now
we have to make the best of what we have got.

I agree, I don't understand why ISPs here in the west are not ahead of this.

The US is #9 on the list with 53% IPv6 adoption. Canada #25 with 37%.

https://www.aelius.com/njh/google-ipv6/

That could not be if there was not a substantial IPv6 adoption by ISPs.

Money could be a part of it. I think there are large numbers of
routers in the wild that don't support IPv6 so they will need to be changed. There will be a cost for that.

That may be a factor. However.. average life time for a router is in the order of five years. Routers younger than five years should all have IPv6 by now...


Cheers, Michiel

--- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
* Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)

Hello Alan,

On Wednesday January 04 2023 08:40, you wrote to me:

In large centers like Vancouver IPv6 is available. Those that want to
use it need supporting hardware.

I live out in the boonies of BC in a small town. There may not be IPv6
on the wire here and that might be the reason I don't get IPv6 here.

That puzzles me. Once the fysical infrasturcture is there, supplying IPv6 to customers in rural areas should be no more difficult than doing so in metropolitan areas. The cables are IP version agnostic.

I have my eyes on IPv6 and will set it up when it arrives here.

Here we have tech forums on the internet where ISP customers meet and compare notes. Don't you have that in Canada? Perhaps you can already have IPv6 but some flag need to be set by the ISP. Or you need a router update. Something like that. Comparing notes with fellow customers may help.


Cheers, Michiel

--- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
* Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)

I live out in the boonies of BC in a small town. There may not be IPv6
on the wire here and that might be the reason I don't get IPv6 here.

That puzzles me. Once the fysical infrasturcture is there, supplying IPv6 to customers in rural areas should be no more difficult than doing so in metropolitan areas. The cables are IP version agnostic.

It puzzles me too but that is the norm here.

I have my eyes on IPv6 and will set it up when it arrives here.

Here we have tech forums on the internet where ISP customers meet and compare notes. Don't you have that in Canada? Perhaps you can already have IPv6 but some flag need to be set by the ISP. Or you need a router update. Something like that. Comparing notes with fellow customers may help.

No one I have talked too knows what IPv6 is. It's much the same when I call tech support and ask about it. I have to explain what IPv6 is.

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-6
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)

Hello Dale,

opinion on everything and he probably also wants his say on
the "how to hang the roll with toilet paper" debate.

The answer to that is weighed by whether or not one has cats:-}}

I have been trying to herd cats for decades. And to date have
never been successful.

Time to let Kevin McCarthy have his turn ...

For Life,
Lee

--
Dieting doesn't work, Weight Watchers does

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)

On 06 Jan 23 11:49:05, Lee Lofaso said the following to Nick Andre:

The troll says what?

An absent-minded self-appointed zone coordinator.

The troll says what?

Nick

--- Renegade vY2Ka2
* Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)

On 06 Jan 23 11:49:24, Lee Lofaso said the following to Nick Andre:

I have tried Ward and I have failed to become impressed.

Michiel is Dutch. So he has a legitimate excuse.

The troll says what?

Nick

--- Renegade vY2Ka2
* Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)

Hello Michiel!

I have my eyes on IPv6 and will set it up when it arrives here.

MvdV> Here we have tech forums on the internet where ISP customers meet and
MvdV> compare notes. Don't you have that in Canada? Perhaps you can already
MvdV> have IPv6 but some flag need to be set by the ISP. Or you need a router
MvdV> update. Something like that. Comparing notes with fellow customers may
MvdV> help.

In Canada, or at least in the part where I live, Bell Canada
controls the underlying network of networks. Bell Canada is
itself an ISP, but there are several alternate ISPs to choose
from. However, the alternates have to LEASE the lines from
Bell Canada. As a result, not all speeds and features are
automatically offered by the alternates. For example, I learned
that although my alternate ISP offers a minimum 10Mps DSL speed
to my destination for my pay-package (I am only .5 km away from
the main switch in town), the ISP says that only 5Mbps max is
available. It turns out that Bell *can* offer the privilege of
10Mps rates to the alternative ISP, but the alternative ISP has
not negotiated the LEASE to include that rate.

So, although I have a DSL modem provided by my alternate ISP
that supports IPv6, the alternative ISP has *not* enabled it.


--
../|ug

--- OpenXP 5.0.51
* Origin: --> . <-- Oh look.. A point! (2:221/1.58)

On 01-06-23 11:49, Lee Lofaso <=-
spoke to Nick Andre about FidoNews 40:01 [02/0 <=-

The keyboard I am using (at this moment) is made in China. I do not
even know if there is such a thing as a Swedish keyboard. But I do
have another keyboard that is made in the USA. It just has the wrong
kind of plug.

So does the keyboard that I am using --- but I figured out how to use it anyhow.

Dale Shipp
fido_261_1466 (at) verizon (dot) net
(1:261/1466)


... Shipwrecked in Silver Spring, Maryland. 00:56:18, 07 Jan 2022
___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30

--- Maximus/NT 3.01
* Origin: Owl's Anchor (1:261/1466)

Hello August,

On Friday January 06 2023 08:31, you wrote to me:

In Canada, or at least in the part where I live, Bell Canada
controls the underlying network of networks. Bell Canada is
itself an ISP, but there are several alternate ISPs to choose
from. However, the alternates have to LEASE the lines from
Bell Canada.

That situation is almost the same as the situation regarding DSL in The Netherlands. Here the copper used for DSL is owned by KPN. KPN is the successor of PTT, the state company that was the monopolist in the POTS age.

Like Bell Canada, KPN is also an ISP. Others can lease the lines from KPN to offer DSL services.

As a result, not all speeds and features are automatically offered by
the alternates.

Same here.

For example, I learned that although my alternate ISP offers a minimum 10Mps DSL speed to my destination for my pay-package (I am only .5 km
away from the main switch in town), the ISP says that only 5Mbps max
is available. It turns out that Bell *can* offer the privilege of
10Mps rates to the alternative ISP, but the alternative ISP has not negotiated the LEASE to include that rate.

Even so... 10 Mbps when you are only 500 meters from the exchange is not impressive.

So, although I have a DSL modem provided by my alternate ISP
that supports IPv6, the alternative ISP has *not* enabled it.

Nevertheless you HAVE an aternative. You can switch to another provider using te same copper pair.

But here most have an alternative to DSL. 95% of households in NL also has a coax cable coming into the house. 95% of the coax is owned by one company: Ziggo and it has a monopoly on it. They do not lease it out to other providers. I take my internet, telephone and TV from Ziggo over the coax. The old POTS copper is no longer in use.

The third option is FTTH. It is available to ever more households. They are pesently digging here in my village and the prognosis is that I will have it in a couple of month. The fiber company operates in the same manner as your Bell Canada. They themselves run an ISP, but third parties can lease the fiber. I do not know how this will evolve.



Cheers, Michiel

--- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
* Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)

Hello Michiel!

10Mps DSL speed to my destination for my pay-package (I am only .5 km
away from the main switch in town), the ISP says that only 5Mbps max
is available. It turns out that Bell *can* offer the privilege of
10Mps rates to the alternative ISP, but the alternative ISP has not
negotiated the LEASE to include that rate.

MvdV> Even so... 10 Mbps when you are only 500 meters from the exchange is
MvdV> not impressive.

True. But that's what I wanted as part of the "minimum"
package for $30/mo. However, the 10Mbps was not available in
my area irregardless how close I was to the switch.

I had a Bell tech drop by to check the DSL line for something
and told me that I could have much higher speeds and it was
"technically" NOT limited to 10Mbps like my alternate ISP was
tellings me. Hence, I suspect that the real limitation is
contract limitations or leasing.

So, although I have a DSL modem provided by my alternate ISP
that supports IPv6, the alternative ISP has *not* enabled it.

MvdV> Nevertheless you HAVE an aternative. You can switch to another provider
MvdV> using te same copper pair.

Nope. Only two other alternate companies have leases in my
area. And they too are limiting to 5Mbps.

The only way I can get higher speeds is if I subscribe to
Fiber. And the minimum $'s for that is over $80/mo. No thanks.
That would be 3x what I have been paying. Not worth it. But I
am sure IPv6 would be included.

I am not sure if cable is an option. I haven't heard of anyone
on cable on the main street here.

--
../|ug

--- OpenXP 5.0.51
* Origin: --> . <-- Oh look.. A point! (2:221/1.58)

Hello Gerrit,

On Saturday January 07 2023 11:27, you wrote to me:

v4 will stay in use behind routers, e.g., in private homes or
companies, for very, very long. It is much easier to set up and
maintain, all devices support it, and all maintenance staff knows how
to work with it. Probably its usage will decline, but a complete
phase-out (even at the 95% level) will take decades.

IPv4 will stay around for a while but I don't think it will last many decades. That IPv4 is easier to setup and maintain is a misunderstanding. IPv6 is different from IPv4 and one has to get rid of "IPv4 think" to appreciate it, but once one gets to know it, it is easier than IPv4.

In the transition phase keeping IPv4 along IPv6 will be necessary for a while, but keeping two systems active in parallel involves more cost and more work than just maintaining one and manufactures will realise that and fase out IPv4 support eventually.

Among other things, I'd also like to keep accessability of my
home network from my workplace (which is, up no now and for all
foreseeable future, an v4-only outfit).

MvdV>> Time to start exerting some pressure on your boss to implement
MvdV>> IPv6 on his side. ;-)

No way. We're talking about a ClassB university network.

That's no excuse. On the contrary, Universities have a role model. They should lead.

Not going IPv6 and staying with IPv4 until Kingdom Come is just not an option. IPv6 is here and it is not going away. Sooner or later one will face the fact that portions of the Internet are inaccesable without IPv6. The longer one postpones, the harder it will get.

There are plenty of ipv4 addresses available, and on the other hand
way too few people to handle a migration of this size.

That /16 should be an incentive to move to IPv6 ASAP. When they go IPv6 they no longer need all those addresses en they can SELL that /16 on the market. At the going rate of EUR 55/address it will bring about 3.6 MEUR. Better not wait too long, in 2020 the price of IPv4 has doubled just as in 2021. But in 2022 it remained quasi stable between EUR 50 and EUR 60. Making predictions is hard, especially when it concerns the future and so we do not know /when/ the bubble will burst. But that some day it will, it a certainty. So...


Cheers, Michiel

--- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
* Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)

Re: FidoNews 40:01 [02/0
By: Michiel van der Vlist to Gerrit Kuehn on Sat Jan 07 2023 11:34 pm

That's no excuse. On the contrary, Universities have a role model. They should lead.

This is interesting. First of all, I totally agree: My univerity was part of am IPV6 research project in the UK. This was in 2000 !!!

Adoption has been somewhat slow, and the same "Lack of address space" arguments were being made back then.

Tris.
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Extricate BBS - bbs.extricate.org (2:250/11)

Hello Michiel!

07 Jan 23 23:34, Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Gerrit Kuehn:

to work with it. Probably its usage will decline, but a complete
phase-out (even at the 95% level) will take decades.

MvdV> IPv4 will stay around for a while but I don't think it will last
MvdV> many decades.

Just an example: FreeBSD declared "ipv6 ready" around 2000 afaicr. Now it's more than 20 years later, ipv6 is just picking up speed, and ipv4 is imho decades away from vanishing. I see no reason to believe that ramping down ipv4 will happen any faster than ramping up ipv6.

MvdV> That IPv4 is easier to setup and maintain is a
MvdV> misunderstanding. IPv6 is different from IPv4 and one has to get
MvdV> rid of "IPv4 think" to appreciate it, but once one gets to know it,
MvdV> it is easier than IPv4.

The misunderstanding is all yours. As I wrote, ipv4 is already there, all devices support it and all people know how to use it. Even if ipv6 comes with certain benefits (and there are drawbacks, too), it will require support by hardware and software products, a migration/transition phase, and people willing to learn how to use it. That's why I said that setting up and maintaining ipv4 is easier.

MvdV> In the transition phase keeping IPv4 along IPv6 will be necessary
MvdV> for a while, but keeping two systems active in parallel involves
MvdV> more cost and more work than just maintaining one and manufactures
MvdV> will realise that and fase out IPv4 support eventually.

See? That's exactly why introduction of ipv6 is being held back in many places until /really/ necessary. Plus I'm not that optimisic on your last sentence, you won't see ipv4 go away any time soon.

No way. We're talking about a ClassB university network.

MvdV> That's no excuse. On the contrary, Universities have a role model.
MvdV> They should lead.

Tell that the politicians responsible for the funding.

MvdV> Not going IPv6 and staying with IPv4 until Kingdom Come is just not
MvdV> an option. IPv6 is here and it is not going away. Sooner or later
MvdV> one will face the fact that portions of the Internet are
MvdV> inaccesable without IPv6.

We're not there, yet.

MvdV> That /16 should be an incentive to move to IPv6 ASAP. When they go
MvdV> IPv6 they no longer need all those addresses en they can SELL that
MvdV> /16 on the market.

I don't even know if that would be legally possible. I certainly doubt that this will ever happen.


Regards,
Gerrit

... 10:04AM up 291 days, 16:10, 7 users, load averages: 0.69, 0.71, 0.62

--- msged/fbsd 6.3 2021-12-02
* Origin: So come and try to tell me (2:240/12)

Hello Tristan!

08 Jan 23 07:27, Tristan Greaves wrote to Michiel van der Vlist:

This is interesting. First of all, I totally agree: My univerity was part of am IPV6 research project in the UK. This was in 2000 !!!

Adoption has been somewhat slow, and the same "Lack of address space" arguments were being made back then.

I don't know how well your universities are funded. In Germany, I mainly know them as serverely underfunded, especially when it comes to "service". Getting money for research (I remember projects like the one you cited from around 2000) is something completely different, but it won't pay for migrating and maintaining your campus network.


Regards,
Gerrit

... 10:34AM up 291 days, 16:40, 7 users, load averages: 0.37, 0.58, 0.61

--- msged/fbsd 6.3 2021-12-02
* Origin: And still they come and go (2:240/12)

Hello Gerrit,

On Sunday January 08 2023 10:04, you wrote to me:

MvdV>> IPv4 will stay around for a while but I don't think it will
MvdV>> last many decades.

Just an example: FreeBSD declared "ipv6 ready" around 2000 afaicr. Now it's more than 20 years later, ipv6 is just picking up speed,

Yes, it is going slow.

ipv4 is imho decades away from vanishing. I see no reason to believe
that ramping down ipv4 will happen any faster than ramping up ipv6.

It is not a symetrical process. Adopting IPv6 is going uphill. Decommissioning IPv4 is going downhill. A matter of just switching it off.

MvdV>> That IPv4 is easier to setup and maintain is a misunderstanding.
MvdV>> IPv6 is different from IPv4 and one has to get rid of "IPv4 think"
MvdV>> to appreciate it, but once one gets to know it, it is easier than
MvdV>> IPv4.

The misunderstanding is all yours. As I wrote, ipv4 is already there,
all devices support it and all people know how to use it. Even if ipv6 comes with certain benefits (and there are drawbacks, too), it will require support by hardware and software products, a
migration/transition phase, and people willing to learn how to use it. That's why I said that setting up and maintaining ipv4 is easier.

Most hardware en software products allready support IPv6. The Internet backbone is fully IPv6 ready. Many main players already are IPv6 only internally. There are plenty of people who know how to deal with IPv6.

MvdV>> In the transition phase keeping IPv4 along IPv6 will be necessary
MvdV>> for a while, but keeping two systems active in parallel involves
MvdV>> more cost and more work than just maintaining one and manufactures
MvdV>> will realise that and fase out IPv4 support eventually.

See? That's exactly why introduction of ipv6 is being held back in
many places until /really/ necessary.

Yes, there ar laggerds around. The will be presented with the bill for their inaction sooner or later...

Plus I'm not that optimisic on your last sentence, you won't see ipv4
go away any time soon.

Time will tell.

No way. We're talking about a ClassB university network.

MvdV>> That's no excuse. On the contrary, Universities have a role
MvdV>> model. They should lead.

Tell that the politicians responsible for the funding.

See below.

MvdV>> Not going IPv6 and staying with IPv4 until Kingdom Come is just
MvdV>> not an option. IPv6 is here and it is not going away. Sooner or
MvdV>> later one will face the fact that portions of the Internet are
MvdV>> inaccesable without IPv6.

We're not there, yet.

China plans to go IPv6 only by 2030. New networks must not use IPv4 after 2023. You can think whatever you want about that, but it will have consequences for the rest of the world.

https://www.theregister.com/2021/07/26/china_single_stack_ipv6_notice/ https://www.theregister.com/2022/04/26/china_ipv6_plan/

You yourself will be faced with a single stack IPv6 only network with IPv4AAS (IPv4 As A Service) in the near future. Because that is what DS-Lite basically is. You will not get a public IPv4 address any more. They figure the expense of giving everyone a public IPv4 address does not outweigh the benefits and setting up and maintaining a single stack stack network is easier. They obviously think the time is ripe for that.

We ARE there alraedy.

MvdV>> That /16 should be an incentive to move to IPv6 ASAP. When they
MvdV>> go IPv6 they no longer need all those addresses en they can
MvdV>> SELL that /16 on the market.

I don't even know if that would be legally possible. I certainly doubt that this will ever happen.

I am not a lawyer, let alone a German lawyer. But here in The Netherlands selling or renting out IPv4 addresses is fully legal. It happens and not just on a small scale.

Now regarding funding...

Here the goverment has decreed that all government agencies must go IPv6. In 2010 it was "PTOLU" (Pas Toe Of Leg Uit) (Deploy or explain) Now that is changed to just "deploy".

My Alma Mater (Utecht University) who is run by the state has complied. www.uu.nl. I do not know what the consequence is for non complience but I can imagine it would be a cut in funding.


Cheers, Michiel

--- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
* Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)

Hello Michiel!

08 Jan 23 15:12, Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Gerrit Kuehn:

ipv4 is imho decades away from vanishing. I see no reason to believe
that ramping down ipv4 will happen any faster than ramping up ipv6.

MvdV> It is not a symetrical process. Adopting IPv6 is going uphill.
MvdV> Decommissioning IPv4 is going downhill. A matter of just switching
MvdV> it off.

"Just switching it off" only works if there is nothing left on the ipv4 side. This is not the case, and won't be any time soon.

MvdV> Most hardware en software products allready support IPv6. The
MvdV> Internet backbone is fully IPv6 ready. Many main players already
MvdV> are IPv6 only internally. There are plenty of people who know how
MvdV> to deal with IPv6.

I've been through these discussions so many times, really. "plenty of people" is not enough. You need them right there where you want to start your migration project, and they need to be paid to do this work. All managers will ask "What's the cost?" and "What's the benefit?". This is even worse for community-developed software. Someone has to do the actual work.

Just an example: One of the work-horses in real-time data acquisition in science labs is EPICS (https://epics-controls.org/). This is not IPv6-ready, and many installations are run in a very conservative manner concerning updates. Often they talk to embedded devices that are not ipv6-ready and will never be due to their age and support state. Believe me or not, we're talking about decades...
There are other "challanges" at the horizon: "zero trust", "everything encrypted", "everything authenticated" for example. IPv6 is just one of them.

See? That's exactly why introduction of ipv6 is being held back in
many places until /really/ necessary.

MvdV> Yes, there ar laggerds around. The will be presented with the bill
MvdV> for their inaction sooner or later...

What bill should that be?
Of course you can be "proactive" on certain technical developments, but usually it doesn't pay back well unless you wait long enough to have as many common issues solved by "somebody else". As long as ipv4 gets the job done for you, there is simply no need to consider anything else. "Changes in the future" are always there, but especially with computers involved, I'll not bet on anything that isn't there yet (and sometimes not even then because you never know how long it might stay).

MvdV> China plans to go IPv6 only by 2030.

Oh, come on. I don't care about what China does inside their walls.

MvdV> You yourself will be faced with a single stack IPv6 only network
MvdV> with IPv4AAS (IPv4 As A Service) in the near future. Because that
MvdV> is what DS-Lite basically is. You will not get a public IPv4
MvdV> address any more. They figure the expense of giving everyone a
MvdV> public IPv4 address does not outweigh the benefits and setting up
MvdV> and maintaining a single stack stack network is easier. They
MvdV> obviously think the time is ripe for that.

They don't offer it to end users anymore, as they think they hardly need it (which is probably true). This will actually lower the overall demand for IPv4-addresses and make their extended use by other entities possible. Public IPv4 might become sparse faster than private ones, sure. But it won't go away any time soon.

MvdV> I am not a lawyer, let alone a German lawyer. But here in The
MvdV> Netherlands selling or renting out IPv4 addresses is fully legal.
MvdV> It happens and not just on a small scale.

I wasn't thinking about that part. I don't know who legally "owns" the IP segments for universities in Germany. Germany is a federal republic, universities and education in general are managed on state level. I don't know if a university can simply "sell" anything of their property and keep the money.

MvdV> Here the goverment has decreed that all government agencies must go
MvdV> IPv6. In 2010 it was "PTOLU" (Pas Toe Of Leg Uit) (Deploy or
MvdV> explain) Now that is changed to just "deploy".

Yes, the usual bullshit: "decree" that something has to happen. Without backing this up with money and concrete projects, it's pretty much void. I don't know of any such decree in Germany, so we are not even at that stage.

MvdV> My Alma Mater (Utecht University) who is run by the state has
MvdV> complied. www.uu.nl. I do not know what the consequence is for non
MvdV> complience but I can imagine it would be a cut in funding.

I guess I won't dive into science and education funding here, that's way too frustrating.


Regards,
Gerrit

... 5:11PM up 291 days, 23:17, 7 users, load averages: 0.33, 0.47, 0.48

--- msged/fbsd 6.3 2021-12-02
* Origin: And still they come and go (2:240/12)

Re: FidoNews 40:01 [02/0
By: Michiel van der Vlist to Tristan Greaves on Sun Jan 08 2023 02:40 pm

ipv4 exhausted 11 years ago, but one could clearly see it coming in 2000.

So how is your personal situation? Is IPv6 available for you?

Not with my current ISP, sadly. There are numerous ones in the UK who are offering it, but I have no reason to jump for that reason at the moment.

Tris.
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Extricate BBS - bbs.extricate.org (2:250/11)

Gerrit Kuehn wrote to Michiel van der Vlist <=-

v4 will stay in use behind routers, e.g., in private homes or
companies, for very, very long. It is much easier to set up and
maintain, all devices support it, and all maintenance staff knows how
to work with it. Probably its usage will decline, but a complete
phase-out (even at the 95% level) will take decades.

I'm more concerned about carrier-grade NAT. Having a carrier NAT you
behind their network, completely eliminating the possibility of running services on a home network would certainly make their life easier.

Might be time to brush up on Cloudflare tunnels.




... Humanise something free of error
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
* Origin: http://realitycheckbbs.org | tomorrow's retro tech (1:218/700)

Hello Michiel!

** On Tuesday 03.01.23 - 11:36, Michiel van der Vlist wrote..

MvdV> A tunnel offers those who do not have native IPv6 from their ISP the
MvdV> opportunity to experiment with new technology. Like we did in the early
MvdV> days of Fidonet when the pioneer spirit was still dominant.

Not too many fidonet experimenters around anymore. I would
guess that most people just want an internet connection and get
things done immediately. :/ And COST still factors into the
equation.


MvdV> What happened to that pioneer spirit? In the early days of Fidonet did
MvdV> you ever ask "do I really need this"? Or did you just go ahead and
MvdV> tried out new technology?

Actually.. that *is* the way I approached the hobby. I
implemented the software, tools and techniques to achieve what
I wanted my BBS system to be. The closest I may have come to
experimenting was to spring for a satellite feed for fidonet in
my rural area and/or implementing a paired dialup line to
achieve higher speeds.


MvdV> It will happen and it will be in the foreseeable future. Simple math
MvdV> will tell you that there is not enough IPv4 to cover the needs of an
MvdV> expanding internet. With a bit of luck you and I will live to see it.

But then, most fidonet systems will have shrunk even more
considerably and it won't matter for fidonet "experimentation".

:/

--
../|ug

--- OpenXP 5.0.51
* Origin: --> . <-- Oh look.. A point! (2:221/1.58)

On 01-08-23 14:29, Michiel Van Der Vlist <=-
spoke to August Abolins about FidoNews 40:01 [02/0 <=-

MVDV> brought the DSLAM closer to the customer. It is called
MVDV> FTTC, Fiber to the Curb. 200 Mbps is possible. But the
MVDV> owner of the copper has decided to no longer go that way
MVDV> and go FTTH instead. In the long run all the old copper

Finally, I grok what FTTH means.

MVDV> In the meantime I have 100 Mbps down and 20 Mbps up from
MVDV> the cable company. That is their minimum package. Up to
MVDV> 1000/50 Mbps is available for those wanting to pay fo it.

In my previous house, I had fiber optic in the house. IIRC, my speeds
were about what you quoted -- with upload being less than download by
more than 3db. In my current appartment, I no longer have cable or
fiber for the computer -- only wireless from a router that does not
belong to me and which I cannot access. But, my speeds are 100/150
Mbps. Do you have any idea why my upload speed would now be more than
my download speed?

Dale Shipp
fido_261_1466 (at) verizon (dot) net
(1:261/1466)


... Shipwrecked in Silver Spring, Maryland. 00:27:59, 09 Jan 2022
___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30

--- Maximus/NT 3.01
* Origin: Owl's Anchor (1:261/1466)

On 08 Jan 2023 at 02:29p, Michiel van der Vlist pondered and said...

In the meantime I have 100 Mbps down and 20 Mbps up from the cable company. That is their minimum package. Up to 1000/50 Mbps is available for those wanting to pay fo it.

Here I am fortune to be on a fibre plan that has specs of 1000 down and 500 up. I usually get more like 900 down and 400 up. But the ISP does not (yet) offer IPv6 despite me asking for some time. They are a large New Zeland ISP (Spark).

Kerr Avon [Blake's 7] 'I'm not expendable, I'm not stupid and I'm not going' avon[at]bbs.nz | bbs.nz | fsxnet.nz

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (3:770/100)

Hello Gerrit,

On Sunday January 08 2023 17:11, you wrote to me:

MvdV>> It is not a symetrical process. Adopting IPv6 is going uphill.
MvdV>> Decommissioning IPv4 is going downhill. A matter of just
MvdV>> switching it off.

"Just switching it off" only works if there is nothing left on the
ipv4 side. This is not the case, and won't be any time soon.

That is nevertheless sort of what is happening on the mobile networks right now. Full Dual Stack as deployed on the fixed networks is not possible on the mobile networks. What they use is something akin to DS-Lite. The base network is Single stack IPv6 only and IPv4 is covered by NAT64/DNS64. IPv4AAS. They could only make that switch when (almost) all of the IPv4 only mobile equipment was gone. Apparently that stage has been reached. The mobile networks are going IPv6 and if you happen to still have a very old smartphone that is IPv4 only, you are out of luck.

MvdV>> Most hardware en software products allready support IPv6. The
MvdV>> Internet backbone is fully IPv6 ready. Many main players
MvdV>> already are IPv6 only internally. There are plenty of people
MvdV>> who know how to deal with IPv6.

I've been through these discussions so many times, really. "plenty of people" is not enough. You need them right there where you want to
start your migration project, and they need to be paid to do this
work.

Years ago Apple has made it a condition for access to their app store that apps can function in an IPv6 only environment. And so it happened.

All managers will ask "What's the cost?" and "What's the benefit?".

A legitimate question and the honest answer is: "the cost is substantial and there are little or no direct short time benefits". But the full honest answer would include: "but in the end it is unavoidable and if you wait until it is absolutely necessary, the cost will be MUCH higher and you wil have missed the benfits over those years."

This is even worse for community-developed software. Someone has to do
the actual work.

Try to get your IPv4 only app admitted to the Apple app store...

Just an example: One of the work-horses in real-time data acquisition
in science labs is EPICS (https://epics-controls.org/). This is not IPv6-ready, and many installations are run in a very conservative
manner concerning updates. Often they talk to embedded devices that
are not ipv6-ready and will never be due to their age and support
state. Believe me or not, we're talking about decades...

I am not in the believing bussiness, I prefer facts. Verifiable facts.

See? That's exactly why introduction of ipv6 is being held back
in many places until /really/ necessary.

MvdV>> Yes, there ar laggerds around. They will be presented with the
MvdV>> bill for their inaction sooner or later...

What bill should that be?

The very much higher cost when it eventually can no longer be postponed and has to be done in a hurry.

MvdV>> China plans to go IPv6 only by 2030.

Oh, come on. I don't care about what China does inside their walls.

We live in one world and as a consequence in one Internet. Look around you: how many devices in your direct surrounding are labeled "made in China"? Here it is substantial. If China goes IPv6 only it will affect the rest of the world.

China is not the only one aiming for that goal. Several main players like YouTube have already gone IPv6 only internally.

MvdV>> You yourself will be faced with a single stack IPv6 only
MvdV>> network with IPv4AAS (IPv4 As A Service) in the near future.
MvdV>> Because that is what DS-Lite basically is. You will not get a
MvdV>> public IPv4 address any more. They figure the expense of giving
MvdV>> everyone a public IPv4 address does not outweigh the benefits
MvdV>> and setting up and maintaining a single stack stack network is
MvdV>> easier. They obviously think the time is ripe for that.

They don't offer it to end users anymore, as they think they hardly
need it (which is probably true). This will actually lower the overall demand for IPv4-addresses and make their extended use by other
entities possible.

Probably, but I doubt that will compensate for the still growing demand due to the growth of the internet.

My point is that you yourself will soon be faced with a situation where IPv6 is the norm and you have to jump through hoops and/or make extra cost if you still want full IPv4 support. In that situation it makes sense to get rid of IPv4 altogether. Denial is not a river in Egypt.

MvdV>> I am not a lawyer, let alone a German lawyer. But here in The
MvdV>> Netherlands selling or renting out IPv4 addresses is fully
MvdV>> legal. It happens and not just on a small scale.

I wasn't thinking about that part. I don't know who legally "owns" the
IP segments for universities in Germany. Germany is a federal
republic, universities and education in general are managed on state level. I don't know if a university can simply "sell" anything of
their property and keep the money.

It does not matter who's name is on the ownershop papers. If it is owned by the government, diectly or indirectly, they will find a way to make it legal to sell it if that is what they want. Maybe those who would benefit from selling that /16 aren't aware of what it is worth on the market. Until the bubble bursts...

MvdV>> Here the goverment has decreed that all government agencies
MvdV>> must go IPv6. In 2010 it was "PTOLU" (Pas Toe Of Leg Uit)
MvdV>> (Deploy or explain) Now that is changed to just "deploy".

Yes, the usual bullshit: "decree" that something has to happen.
Without backing this up with money and concrete projects, it's pretty
much void. I don't know of any such decree in Germany, so we are not
even at that stage.

And yet Germany is doing very good on this list: https://www.aelius.com/njh/google-ipv6/

#3 on the list with 67% IPv6 adoption. How is that possible with everyone following your line of reasoning?

MvdV>> My Alma Mater (Utecht University) who is run by the state has
MvdV>> complied. www.uu.nl. I do not know what the consequence is for
MvdV>> non complience but I can imagine it would be a cut in funding.

I guess I won't dive into science and education funding here, that's
way too frustrating.

That didn't stop you from pointing to "funding" as a factor for your employer to stay with IPv4.


Cheers, Michiel

--- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
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Hello Tristan,

On Sunday January 08 2023 19:58, you wrote to me:

So how is your personal situation? Is IPv6 available for you?

Not with my current ISP, sadly. There are numerous ones in the UK who
are offering it, but I have no reason to jump for that reason at the moment.

OK.


Cheers, Michiel

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Hello August,

On Sunday January 08 2023 20:39, you wrote to me:

MvdV>> It will happen and it will be in the foreseeable future. Simple
MvdV>> math will tell you that there is not enough IPv4 to cover the
MvdV>> needs of an expanding internet. With a bit of luck you and I
MvdV>> will live to see it.

But then, most fidonet systems will have shrunk even more
considerably and it won't matter for fidonet "experimentation".

Fidonet lasted much longer than I expected. I expected it to be over by the turn of the century. But is is still here. And the pioneer spirit has not gone completely. There are still 34 sysop running a tunnel to get IPv6.

He.net is doing an excellent service to promote IPv6 by providing free tunnels. But I wish it was no longer needed. Native IPv6 from the provider is preferable.


Cheers, Michiel

--- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
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Hello Dale,

On Monday January 09 2023 00:23, you wrote to me:

Finally, I grok what FTTH means.

;-)

MVDV>> In the meantime I have 100 Mbps down and 20 Mbps up from
MVDV>> the cable company. That is their minimum package. Up to
MVDV>> 1000/50 Mbps is available for those wanting to pay fo it.

In my previous house, I had fiber optic in the house. IIRC, my speeds were about what you quoted -- with upload being less than download by
more than 3db.

I will have FTTH in the near future. They are digging in my village right now. They claim they can offer 8Gbps symetric. I do not need that speed. Not yet...

In my current appartment, I no longer have cable or fiber for the
computer -- only wireless from a router that does not belong to me and which I cannot access. But, my speeds are 100/150 Mbps. Do you have
any idea why my upload speed would now be more than my download speed?

Sorry, I have no idea.


Cheers, Michiel

--- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
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Hello Michiel!

09 Jan 23 09:57, Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Gerrit Kuehn:

All managers will ask "What's the cost?" and "What's the benefit?".

MvdV> A legitimate question and the honest answer is: "the cost is
MvdV> substantial and there are little or no direct short time benefits".
MvdV> But the full honest answer would include: "but in the end it is
MvdV> unavoidable and if you wait until it is absolutely necessary, the
MvdV> cost will be MUCH higher and you wil have missed the benfits over
MvdV> those years."

What would be these "much higher" extra costs at a later time? And what "early benefits" would you miss?

MvdV> Try to get your IPv4 only app admitted to the Apple app store...

Admittedly, I'm not into apps and mobile business at all... networking is much more than that.

Just an example: One of the work-horses in real-time data acquisition
in science labs is EPICS (https://epics-controls.org/). This is not
IPv6-ready, and many installations are run in a very conservative
manner concerning updates. Often they talk to embedded devices that
are not ipv6-ready and will never be due to their age and support
state. Believe me or not, we're talking about decades...

MvdV> I am not in the believing bussiness, I prefer facts. Verifiable
MvdV> facts.

You can access the website above and see that it is a large project used in science labs all over the world. It's open source, so you can even look at the code and see that there is no ipv6-support. Verifiable enough? What are you missing?

What bill should that be?

MvdV> The very much higher cost when it eventually can no longer be
MvdV> postponed and has to be done in a hurry.

This completely depends (again) on the timescale. I still doubt that there will be anything like a tipping point in the near future that can't be seen coming from afar. Do you have any verifiable facts for the opposite?

Oh, come on. I don't care about what China does inside their walls.

MvdV> We live in one world and as a consequence in one Internet. Look
MvdV> around you: how many devices in your direct surrounding are labeled
MvdV> "made in China"? Here it is substantial. If China goes IPv6 only it
MvdV> will affect the rest of the world.

This would only affect servers located in China which I don't care about. Switches and other networking gear are agnostic to ipv4/ipv6. They can even carry non-ip traffic. There is no reason why ipv4 support on this level should go away any time soon.

MvdV> China is not the only one aiming for that goal. Several main
MvdV> players like YouTube have already gone IPv6 only internally.

These are all easily accessible from ipv4 nodes, the technique to do this is readily available. There is no reason to migrate your own network to ipv6 just because of this.

They don't offer it to end users anymore, as they think they hardly
need it (which is probably true). This will actually lower the
overall demand for IPv4-addresses and make their extended use by
other entities possible.

MvdV> Probably, but I doubt that will compensate for the still growing
MvdV> demand due to the growth of the internet.

You'll have to decide which way to go with your argumentation here: either ipv4 is going to die out soon (as you claimed above), then there will be plenty of addresses available. Or this is not going to happen any time soon.

MvdV> My point is that you yourself will soon be faced with a situation
MvdV> where IPv6 is the norm and you have to jump through hoops and/or
MvdV> make extra cost if you still want full IPv4 support. In that
MvdV> situation it makes sense to get rid of IPv4 altogether.

IPv4 is available and there. Access to IPv6 is usually provided by other people. An ISP will not be able to sell any router box to their customer not supporting ipv4-to-ipv6 translation as most customers (especially the private ones) still run ipv4 networks.

MvdV> Denial is not a river in Egypt.

I'm still waiting for any of the "verifiable facts" that you prefer so much in other places.

MvdV> It does not matter who's name is on the ownershop papers. If it is
MvdV> owned by the government, diectly or indirectly, they will find a
MvdV> way to make it legal to sell it if that is what they want. Maybe
MvdV> those who would benefit from selling that /16 aren't aware of what
MvdV> it is worth on the market. Until the bubble bursts...

You don't get my point: the university has plenty of ipv4 addresses and no dire need nor the manpower and funding to do a migration. OTOH, selling the IPv4 addresses might not get them any money even if possible. The state might simply collect the money.

Yes, the usual bullshit: "decree" that something has to happen.
Without backing this up with money and concrete projects, it's pretty
much void. I don't know of any such decree in Germany, so we are not
even at that stage.

MvdV> And yet Germany is doing very good on this list:
MvdV> https://www.aelius.com/njh/google-ipv6/

So there is probably no need for a decree here, fine.
OTOH, I really wonder what they count here. It says they measure "availability of IPv6 connectivity among Google users". So when I have my new ISP with DSlite, I'd be counted as "ipv6 user", although the only thing in my whole network at home doing ipv6 will be the edge router. The 20+ devices behind it doing ipv4 only won't be counted. This is not exactly what I would call convincing facts for a near phase-out of ipv4.

MvdV> #3 on the list with 67% IPv6 adoption. How is that possible with
MvdV> everyone following your line of reasoning?

See above: you count neither the number of ipv4 devices still in operation nor the ratio between ipv4 and ipv6 devices. It simply says nothing about the near end of ipv4 you claim all the time.

I guess I won't dive into science and education funding here, that's
way too frustrating.

MvdV> That didn't stop you from pointing to "funding" as a factor for
MvdV> your employer to stay with IPv4.

My employer just happens to live on a university campus using the infrastructure they are providing there. Deciding whether to go for ipv6 or not is beyond scope here.


Regards,
Gerrit

... 6:37PM up 293 days, 43 mins, 7 users, load averages: 0.44, 0.63, 0.60

--- msged/fbsd 6.3 2021-12-02
* Origin: So come and try to tell me (2:240/12)

Hello Paul,

On Monday January 09 2023 20:48, you wrote to me:

Here I am fortune to be on a fibre plan that has specs of 1000 down
and 500 up. I usually get more like 900 down and 400 up. But the ISP
does not (yet) offer IPv6 despite me asking for some time. They are a large New Zeland ISP (Spark).

Fibre is coming here as well, but I have mixed feelings about it. My main problem is that they do not offer IPv6. Umlike you, running a tunnel it not an option since they can not offer a modem that can be set in bridge mode and ONT's that will wordk with their technology are not available yet. So I will be stuck with their modem/router. Which od course does not offer tunneling. :(

Here more than one fibre company is competing in several places. Their first priority is to get there first so they will have the most customers. All the rest is low priority. :(

Kerr Avon [Blake's 7] 'I'm not expendable, I'm not stupid and I'm not going'

I loved that series. :-)


Cheers, Michiel

--- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
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Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Gerrit Kuehn <=-

Believe me or not, we're talking about decades...

I am not in the believing bussiness, I prefer facts.
Verifiable facts.

You can access the website above and see that it is a large project
used in science labs all over the world. It's open source, so you can
even look at the code and see that there is no ipv6-support.
Verifiable enough? What are you missing?

My response was on the "Believe me or not, we're talking about decades..." part. That part I do not accept as fact just because
you say so.

And yet..... you expect all of *us* to accept what you say as fact, just because you say so. Right?

Having followed the trends for well over a decade my educated
guess is that it will happen between five and ten years from now.
But I have to admit that making predictions is not my strong
point. Especially when it is about the future.

Are not all predictions, by definition, about the future? LOL

These are all easily accessible from ipv4 nodes, the technique to do
this is readily available. There is no reason to migrate your own
network to ipv6 just because of this.

That depends on your definiton of "easy". Accessing directly via
IPv6 is faster.

"Easy" and "Faster" are not the same thing. Focus!

You'll have to decide which way to go with your argumentation here:
either ipv4 is going to die out soon (as you claimed above), then
there will be plenty of addresses available. Or this is not going to happen any time soon.

There are shades of "soon". IPv4 will probably not die out in the
next five years. And so ISPs switching their customers to DS-Lite
will not have the effect of lowering the demand of IPv4. Between
five and ten years, yes that will indeed lower the demand on IPv4
but by then it will no longer be relevant.

Is this another "prediction", which you previously said you were not
good at?

Doomsday predictions and hand-wringing do not an emergency make.



... All hope abandon, ye who enter messages here.
=== MultiMail/Linux v0.52
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:123/115)

Hello Michiel!

11 Jan 23 12:15, Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Gerrit Kuehn:

MvdV> Oh, come on! Do I really have to explain that? Isnt it in any text
MvdV> book on how to run a bussiness that postponing the inevitable to
MvdV> the last minute will always be more expensive than doing it at a
MvdV> time of one's own choice? A time of relative slack? Isnt that ...
MvdV> eh ... elementary?

No, it all depends on the timescale. And this is exactly what we can't agree on. You say it's basically yesterday. I say come back 2030. It's neither recommended nor elementary to pick up new technology before time. And I'm not even suggesting to do leapfrogging here.

You can access the website above and see that it is a large project
used in science labs all over the world. It's open source, so you can
even look at the code and see that there is no ipv6-support.
Verifiable enough? What are you missing?

MvdV> My response was on the "Believe me or not, we're talking about
MvdV> decades..." part. That part I do not accept as fact just because
MvdV> you say so.

As I wrote, the link was as example to back up what I'm saying: It's still a long way for many people, companies and projects. It won't happen today, nor tomorrow.

This completely depends (again) on the timescale. I still doubt that
there will be anything like a tipping point in the near future that
can't be seen coming from afar. Do you have any verifiable facts for
the opposite?

MvdV> Tipping points, although predictable in the sense of "if not when",
MvdV> have a habit of being difficult to predict regarding the "when".
MvdV> Ever so often it can only be seen in handsight that the tipping
MvdV> point has occured and even than it is sometimes difficukt to see
MvdV> when it has happened exactly. But that that it has happened and
MvdV> that the situation has changed irreversibly is undeniable.

[...]

So no verifiable facts, just analogies and gut feelings.

MvdV> Will that happen between now and five years? Possible but probably
MvdV> not. Will the price of IPv4 go up for another 15 years. Possibly,
MvdV> but not likely.

What did I say? It's more a matter of decades than of a few months or years.

Switches and other networking gear are agnostic to ipv4/ipv6.

MvdV> Only simple level 2 switches. Many switches have some level 3
MvdV> functionality like IGMP snooping. And of course there are lots of
MvdV> routers among that "other networking gear".

The level 2 switch is what the casual user is using at home. And even when the switch can do some stuff on level 3, it will still happily support everything on level 2. Take IPX as an example. It's hardly used anymore, support in Linux, FreeBSD and other OS has been completely retired. You would still be able to use it in your home network if you wanted to.

There is no reason why ipv4 support on this level should go away any
time soon.

MvdV> I can see several reasons why it would be interesting for
MvdV> manufaturers to drop IPv4 support in routers and other network
MvdV> gear.

There is no business case for such devices. They would be unsellable today, and unsellable in 2030.

These are all easily accessible from ipv4 nodes, the technique to do
this is readily available. There is no reason to migrate your own
network to ipv6 just because of this.

MvdV> That depends on your definiton of "easy". Accessing directly via
MvdV> IPv6 is faster.

"faster" in what sense?

You'll have to decide which way to go with your argumentation here:
either ipv4 is going to die out soon (as you claimed above), then
there will be plenty of addresses available. Or this is not going to
happen any time soon.

MvdV> There are shades of "soon". IPv4 will probably not die out in the
MvdV> next five years. And so ISPs switching their customers to DS-Lite
MvdV> will not have the effect of lowering the demand of IPv4. Between
MvdV> five and ten years, yes that will indeed lower the demand on IPv4
MvdV> but by then it will no longer be relevant.

So can we agree on this: It will take at least another 10 years before the air might get thinner for ipv4?

IPv4 is available and there. Access to IPv6 is usually provided by
other people. An ISP will not be able to sell any router box to their
customer not supporting ipv4-to-ipv6 translation as most customers
(especially the private ones) still run ipv4 networks.

MvdV> Ah, her I see conformation for what I have supsected for some time.
MvdV> You do not know how it works. ISP provided routers do NOT perfom
MvdV> IPv4 to IPv6 translation. Nor do routers bought by the customers
MvdV> themselves.

I beg to differ. Your ipv4 packets get encapsuled by your local router into ipv6 packets. The provider's CGN will unwrap the ipv6 packet and pass it on. You may call that "translation", "wrapping" or whatever. It carries your ipv4 packets away as ipv6 just fine.

MvdV> When your provider delivers IPv6 to your end, the modem/router at
MvdV> your premises will start issuing IPv6 router adverisements to your
MvdV> network and all IPv6 capable devices will pick that up and be
MvdV> assigned IPv6 adresses. Your network will no longer be IPv4 only.
MvdV> Unless of course you have no IPv6 capable devices in your netwok at
MvdV> all. Very unlikely.

Most of my devices support ipv4 and ipv6, and I know how to tell them which one to use. I can even tell my router not to offer ipv6 on the LAN.

MvdV> Go to a command window with your PC and type "ipconfig" for Windows
MvdV> or "ifconfig" for Linux and you will probably see an fe80::
MvdV> address.

I don't have any windows machines, and most of the Linux distributions ceased using ifconfig in their default installation... but I know how that stuff works, you don't have to educate me on that.

MvdV> When you get that DS-Lite connection from you fibre ISP, your local
MvdV> network will become dual stack. Both IPv4 and IPv6. When you
MvdV> connect to any IPv6 capable device on the internet, the connection
MvdV> will be Ipv6 to IPv6 all the way.

I could run it that way, yes. However, I'm going to use my own router and will probably not have any ipv6 here at home any time soon.

MvdV> When you connect to an IPv4 only device, the connect will also be
MvdV> IPv4 to IPv4 only. IPV4 packets will be tunneled over the IPv6 only
MvdV> connection between you and you provider, but the connection as such
MvdV> will be IPv4 to IPv4. There will be NO Ipv4 to IPv6 conversion on
MvdV> the provider supplied router, nor anywhere else.

Which is exactly what I wrote above, but nevermind.

MvdV> https://ripe84.ripe.net/presentations/6-v6-public-admin-germany-_Ri
MvdV> pe-84.pdf

This is from the federal government describing their ipv6 strategy. This is requiring no action from anybody else.

MvdV> https://www.ip-insider.de/ipv6-status-quo-in-deutschland-die-v6-roa
MvdV> dmap-des-bun des-gal-27 3333/?p=10

This says the federal government has issued a self-commitment supporting ipv6. Again, this is not requiring anyone else to do anything. And if you know how long federal IT projects take to come into being...

So there is probably no need for a decree here, fine. OTOH, I really
wonder what they count here. It says they measure "availability of
IPv6 connectivity among Google users". So when I have my new ISP with
DSlite, I'd be counted as "ipv6 user", although the only thing in my
whole network at home doing ipv6 will be the edge router. The 20+
devices behind it doing ipv4 only won't be counted. This is not
exactly what I would call convincing facts for a near phase-out of
ipv4.

MvdV> You don't understand how it works. See above.

No, you obviously don't understand or at least misinterpret it. Why should I set my router to issue ipv6 addresses to my LAN?

See above: you count neither the number of ipv4 devices still in
operation nor the ratio between ipv4 and ipv6 devices. It simply says
nothing about the near end of ipv4 you claim all the time.

MvdV> You don't understand how it works. See above.

Repeating does not increase credibility.

My employer just happens to live on a university campus using the
infrastructure they are providing there. Deciding whether to go for
ipv6 or not is beyond scope here.

MvdV> MUST your employer use the network of the university or can they
MvdV> switch to another provider if they wanted t do that?

They probably don't HAVE to use it, but it's there. Using something else would require new cables and fibres inside the buildings, a new uplink outside to an ISP and so on. The result would be very expensive and by no means more useful on the technical side. As I said before, without any compelling reason...


Regards,
Gerrit

... 6:28PM up 295 days, 34 mins, 7 users, load averages: 0.71, 0.71, 0.58

--- msged/fbsd 6.3 2021-12-02
* Origin: We are the second generation (2:240/12)

Hello Gerrit,

On Wednesday January 11 2023 18:28, you wrote to me:

No, it all depends on the timescale. And this is exactly what we can't agree on. You say it's basically yesterday. I say come back 2030. It's neither recommended nor elementary to pick up new technology before
time. And I'm not even suggesting to do leapfrogging here.

No, it does not depend on the time scale. Whether that last minute is five days or five decades ahead, the principle remains the same: postpone the unevitable till the last minute and it will be more expensive.

Unless of course the problem does not exist at all or it lies so far ahead that for all intents and purposes it does not exist.

You say "come back in 2030". That's only seven years ahead....

Let me tell you a story from my own experience. And then I will rest my case.

In 1992 I worked for a small company specialised in making microcomputer based control and measuring equipment for the industry. I was assigned a project to develop a special piece of measuring equipment for a customer specialised in pneumatics. I had designed part of the hardware and all of the software. When it was as good as finished my boss came breathng down my neck and asked:

Boss: What are tou doing?

Me: I am doing some final tests to make sure it will still work in 2000.

Boss: What? Are you crazy? That is EIGHT years from now! Does it otherwise work?

Me: Eh... Yes...

Boss: Then drop what you are doing and have it shipped to the customer so that I can send an invoice.

I am pretty confident the equipment survived Y2K because I had already taken that into account form the start. It was just the last item on the final checklist that I did not complete. But I never knew because I left the company in 1996 - in no good spirit - and the company went belly up a few years later due to bad managemnet.

There are analogies between Y2K and IPv6 but the main difference is that with Y2K the "when" of that last minute was exactly known: 31 december 1999, 23:59.

The earth did not come to a stand still on 1 jan 2000. Nothing much happened. You may say there never was a problem in the first place. I say the fact that there were no major problems was dus to engineers and developers taking action way before that last minute. Ever so often going against their management I imagine.

It is here that I rest may case. Sorry for not commenting on the rest of your post, I think it will just be a waste of time and energy to delve into this any deeper.


Cheers, Michiel

--- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
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Michiel,

Me: I am doing some final tests to make sure it will still work in 2000.

Boss: What? Are you crazy? That is EIGHT years from now! Does it
otherwise work?

...
When I started my first commercial job in IT, Jan.13th 1973, that same day we already discussed how to do things ensuring they would still work 1.1.2000 ... And it wasn't on a UNIX ...

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - MidniteSpecial
* Origin: Many Glacier - Preserve / Protect / Conserve (2:292/854)

Hello Michiel,

MvdV>>> But the full honest answer would include: "but in the end it is
MvdV>>> unavoidable and if you wait until it is absolutely necessary, the
MvdV>>> cost will be MUCH higher and you wil have missed the benfits over
MvdV>>> those years."

What would be these "much higher" extra costs at a later time? And
what "early benefits" would you miss?

MvdV> Oh, come on! Do I really have to explain that? Isnt it in any text book on
MvdV> how to run a bussiness that postponing the inevitable to the last minute
MvdV> will always be more expensive than doing it at a time of one's own choice?
MvdV> A time of relative slack? Isnt that ... eh ... elementary?

In 1970 the Louisiana state legislature approved funding for the
Louisiana Superdome, a domed stadium intended to be used by the New
Orleans Saints football team in the NFL. That was the sole purpose.
The projected cost at the time was peanuts compared to what it would
cost today for such a project. In fact, the cost today would be so
prohibitive it could not be done. Not even by the USA as a national
project.

As far as I know, the Louisiana Superdome (renamed Caesar's Superdome)
is the only football stadium owned by any state (or country). The city
would have no skyline had no domed stadium been built, and the Saints
would have left town for greener pastures long ago.

This proves the adage - if you want to make money, you have to spend
money. Preferably other people's money, but hey I'm glad it's yours and
not mine.

A few years later, the state legislature decided to refinance the deal.
And then threw in funding for a basketball arena right by the Superdome
while not even having a basketball team.

That is how government should spend the people's money. Paying for fun
and games, which everybody loves. Now if only we can convince them to
also pay for bread and circuses while at it.

MvdV> Unless of course you take the position that the transition to IPv6 is not
MvdV> inevitable at all. That running IPv4 only can be continued till judgment
MvdV> day without consequences. Well... if that is you position I have no choice
MvdV> but to rest my case. Denail is not a river in Egypt, I can't argue with
MvdV> that.

JFK did not tell his audience at Rice University he would wait to send
a man to the moon and back. He told them all, on the football field,
that he would do so before the end of the decade. Neil Armstrong later proclaimed, in 1969, "The Eagle has landed."

The computers used at NASA and the Apollo program were puny compared
to what we use today. Just think how far we could go if limited to the
same technology used back then.

Believe me or not, we're talking about decades...

MvdV>>> I am not in the believing bussiness, I prefer facts. Verifiable
MvdV>>> facts.

What total hogwash. History proves you wrong. On all counts.

That may be what you want to believe. But is far from what you
actually believe. Like everyone else, scientists are also prejudiced
and biased. In ways that would make you cringe. But then, scientists
are human. As are we all.

"A journey is called that because you cannot know what you will ...
do with what you find will do to you." ~James Baldwin

Charles Darwin was a visionary. And really shook up the world with
his views. What was it that upset so many scientists of his time?
Why was his vision of monogenism (different human races are all
of the same species) rejected by virtually all of the scientific
community, as if his writings were heresy?

Yes, most scientists around the world at the time believed in
polygenism (different races are not all the same species). This
is known as scientific racism.

In the 19th century, most scholarship focused on racial inferiority,
which provided scientific cover for slavery. Preachers even got into
the act, comparing different races with animals - from God's point of
view.

Most scientists (other than Darwin) believed in scientific racism
as their creed. This idea became fixed, and could never be changed.

Of course, those archaic beliefs have been done away with. Scientists
have moved on to a new way to determine the superiority/inferiority of
races. We call them IQ Tests.

You can access the website above and see that it is a large project
used in science labs all over the world. It's open source, so you can
even look at the code and see that there is no ipv6-support.
Verifiable enough? What are you missing?

MvdV> My response was on the "Believe me or not, we're talking about decades..."
MvdV> part. That part I do not accept as fact just because you say so.

The students at Rice University believed JFK when he told them we
would send a man to the moon and back before the end of the decade.

For Life,
Lee

--
Love! Not hate! Makes America great!

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
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Hello Michiel,

No, it all depends on the timescale. And this is exactly what we can't
agree on. You say it's basically yesterday. I say come back 2030. It's
neither recommended nor elementary to pick up new technology before
time. And I'm not even suggesting to do leapfrogging here.

MvdV> No, it does not depend on the time scale. Whether that last minute is five
MvdV> days or five decades ahead, the principle remains the same: postpone the
MvdV> unevitable till the last minute and it will be more expensive.

Not just more expensive, but also cost-prohibitive.

MvdV> Unless of course the problem does not exist at all or it lies so far ahead
MvdV> that for all intents and purposes it does not exist.

People have what works (ipv4). So why should they want something
they do not want or need? Especially if the cost is more than what
they are currently paying.

MvdV> You say "come back in 2030". That's only seven years ahead....

And the same questions will be asked.

MvdV> Let me tell you a story from my own experience. And then I will rest my
MvdV> case.

The city of New Orleans did not always have a skyline.
Then one day, a businessman in the area had a really nifty idea.
So he went and knocked on the mayor's door and told him his idea.
The both of them thought the idea was so good they decided they
had to tell the governor. And after making a believer out of the
governor, he got right to work selling the idea to the state
legislature so they could fund the project.

Just one building. That is all the governor wanted the state
legislature to fund. One building, on Poydras Street, in New Orleans.
This one building would bring riches to the city, and to the state.
Along with fame. Which is what everybody wants.

And so it was done. The Louisiana Superdome. Built for $36 million
tax payer dollars. Seats 72,000 wild and crazy Saints fans. No matter
how lousy a team they might have.

Today the city of New Orleans has a skyline. And Caesar's Superdome.
Yeah, the Louisiana lesgislature got greedy and sold the naming rights
to those who love gaming. Now if only the Saints can figure out how
to win games again ...

For Life,
Lee

--
Because not everyone likes licorice

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
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Hello Gerrit,

All managers will ask "What's the cost?" and "What's the benefit?".

MvdV>> A legitimate question and the honest answer is: "the cost is
MvdV>> substantial and there are little or no direct short time benefits".
MvdV>> But the full honest answer would include: "but in the end it is
MvdV>> unavoidable and if you wait until it is absolutely necessary, the
MvdV>> cost will be MUCH higher and you wil have missed the benfits over
MvdV>> those years."

What would be these "much higher" extra costs at a later time? And what "early benefits" would you miss?

Michiel brings up an interesting question. But most folks miss the
mark, or meaning, of what it is all about.

JFK once stood in the football stadium at Rice University in Houston,
Texas and gave an address to the students, making a bold prediction,
claiming the US would send a man to the moon and return him safely back
to Earth before the end of the decade.

He made no mention of cost. Or no prediction of what it could or
might cost. Only that it would be done, and that we would succeed.

Now the US is going to do it again. Or is making that claim.

And look at how much more it will be costing us this time. Assuming
we get it done.

Stanley Kubrick made sure JFK's boast came true. Even if we really
did not go to the moon and back, people would believe we did. And that
is all that really counts.

Aside from the savings in money.

MvdV>> Try to get your IPv4 only app admitted to the Apple app store...

Admittedly, I'm not into apps and mobile business at all... networking is much more than that.

I have IPv6. And I never had to ask for it. And that is the way it
will be for most folks. The world does not stop so that it can go
backwards to technologies that are no longer needed or wanted. It
moves forward. Even if at a snail's pace, it moves forward.

Just an example: One of the work-horses in real-time data acquisition
in science labs is EPICS (https://epics-controls.org/). This is not
IPv6-ready, and many installations are run in a very conservative
manner concerning updates. Often they talk to embedded devices that
are not ipv6-ready and will never be due to their age and support
state. Believe me or not, we're talking about decades...

MvdV>> I am not in the believing bussiness, I prefer facts. Verifiable
MvdV>> facts.

You can access the website above and see that it is a large project used in
science labs all over the world. It's open source, so you can even look at the code and see that there is no ipv6-support. Verifiable enough? What are
you missing?

Not everything can be verified. Sometimes one simply has to believe.
Or even not believe. The best we can really do is come up with a theory
of probability. As such, we must believe in doubt. That is the only
sure thing there is, or ever can be.

How many students at Rice University truly believed JFK meant what
he said about sending a man to the moon and back before the end of
the decade? How many people around the world truly believed NASA's
claim of having landed a man on the Moon, with Neil Armstrong saying
"The Eagle has landed" or his famous words "One small step for a
man, one giant leap for mankind"?

Yes, he really did say those words. But did he really say them
while on the surface of the Moon?

Only Buzz Aldrin can tell you for sure.

Michael Collins was too busy flying another spacecraft.

For Life,
Lee

--
I Take A Sheet In The Pool

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
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Re: FidoNews 40:01 [02/0
By: Michiel van der Vlist to Gerrit Kuehn on Sat Jan 07 2023 11:34 pm

IPv4 will stay around for a while but I don't think it will last many decades.

I think IPv4 will likely be around forever in the embedded/IOT world. Private/local networks don't need IPv6 and therefore don't need to pay the price of the additional complexity that comes with IPv6.
--
digital man (rob)

This Is Spinal Tap quote #6:
David St. Hubbins: He was the patron saint of quality footwear.
Norco, CA WX: 49.4øF, 35.0% humidity, 0 mph ENE wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Vertrauen - [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net (1:103/705)

Hello Michiel!

12 Jan 23 10:39, Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Gerrit Kuehn:

No, it all depends on the timescale. And this is exactly what we
can't agree on. You say it's basically yesterday. I say come back
2030. It's neither recommended nor elementary to pick up new
technology before time. And I'm not even suggesting to do leapfrogging
here.

MvdV> No, it does not depend on the time scale. Whether that last minute
MvdV> is five days or five decades ahead, the principle remains the same:
MvdV> postpone the unevitable till the last minute and it will be more
MvdV> expensive.

This is not universally true, I'd rather say it's almost always wrong concerning complex technology like networks or computers. Remember the VESA Local Bus that was marketed as successor to ISA? Looked like a good thing to go for until it turned out that PCI would take over the marked quickly. Skipping VLB was a smart move for many people.

As IPv6 was first implemented around 2000 one of the most appealing features to me was the mandatory inclusion of IPSec. What happened next? IPSec was backported to IPv4 and thrived there. On the other side, IPv6 dropped it as a mandatory feature.
Over the years, there are more than a dozen technologies out there to exchange packets between IPv6 and IPv4. Some of these already withdrawn in the meantime and hardly anywhere in operation.

Heise has just recently tested 25 different IPv6-capable routers for home use (https://www.heise.de/tests/25-Router-im-IPv6-Test-Wo-Fritzbox-Co-noch-immer-p atzen-7449159.html). The article is in German and paywalled, but here is the gist of it: they're all comming with flawed IPv6 implementations. Some (like the AVM box) work almost fine, other not so much, and quite a number of them cannot be run unattended for a longer time. Smart move to go for that right now? I'd rather let manufacturers sort out more of these infant diseases before I start seriously messing with the stuff.

So going for "new technology" always comes with additional costs. You have to do the migration, live with parallel structures, cope with incompatibilities and new bugs and so on. You have to choose the time wisely to do this.

MvdV> You say "come back in 2030". That's only seven years ahead....

In 7 years from now, all the hardware I could buy today for my network will be written off and unsupported.

MvdV> I am pretty confident the equipment survived Y2K because I had
MvdV> already taken that into account form the start. It was just the
MvdV> last item on the final checklist that I did not complete. But I
MvdV> never knew because I left the company in 1996 - in no good spirit -
MvdV> and the company went belly up a few years later due to bad
MvdV> managemnet.

This is hardly comparable because industry equipment (especially embedded stuff) is supposed to be operated and maintained for a longer time than your home network equipment. As I said: in 7 years all the networking stuff you have at home today will be at least unsupported on the software side, probably unoperational and likely broken.
OTOH, it shows how negligent stuff can be developed and then shipped as is, even if intended for industrial use.

MvdV> There are analogies between Y2K and IPv6 but the main difference is
MvdV> that with Y2K the "when" of that last minute was exactly known: 31
MvdV> december 1999, 23:59.

This reminds me that I should get a job farther away from embedded computers by 19th of January 2038. Epochalypse is coming...


Regards,
Gerrit

... 12:26PM up 304 days, 18:32, 7 users, load averages: 1.08, 0.75, 0.62

--- msged/fbsd 6.3 2021-12-02
* Origin: Is serving every man (2:240/12)

Hello Rob,

On Saturday January 21 2023 11:46, you wrote to me:

IPv4 will stay around for a while but I don't think it will last
many decades.

I think IPv4 will likely be around forever in the embedded/IOT world. Private/local networks don't need IPv6

"Forever"is a long time. Isolated private/local networks may continue to function for a long time. But when they have to interact with the Internet - a requirement for IOT - an IPv4 only network will become ever more isolated in an IPv6 dominated Internet. We are not there yet, but the time that IPv6 will be the dominant protocol is not very far ahead.

and therefore don't need to pay the price of the additional complexity that comes with IPv6.

Of course there is a price to pay for the transition. But IPv6 is not more compex than IPv4. On the contrary, it is IPv4 that has become more complex because of all the tricks and work arounds to compensate for the shortage of addresses. In the long run the networks will become less complex when IPv4 is fased out.


Cheers, Michiel

--- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
* Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)

Hello Gerrit,

On Saturday January 21 2023 12:26, you wrote to me:

MvdV>> remains the same: postpone the unevitable till the last minute
^^^^^^^^^^

This is not universally true, I'd rather say it's almost always wrong concerning complex technology like networks or computers. Remember the VESA Local Bus that was marketed as successor to ISA? Looked like a
good thing to go for until it turned out that PCI would take over the marked quickly. Skipping VLB was a smart move for many people.

I skipped ISDN. In the mid nineties I would have liked to have ISDN. Not so much for the data capabilities as for the possibility to make to phone calls simultaneously. But it was not available in my area until about 1997 or 1998 and by then my personal situation had changed and there no longer was a use case for two simultaneous calls. So I stayed with POTS and V34 until DSL became available later. But now we are talking about leapfrogging. The analogy with IPv6 fails because of the keyword "unevitable". The transition to VESA or ISDN was not unevitable.

OK, ever so often the "unevitable" is difficult see in advance. In hindsight we can see that VESA and ISDN were not unevitable.

I say that for IPv6 it is different. IPv6 is making steady progress. A bit slow, but steady anyway. There are no signs that an alternative or successor for IPv6 is in the making, so leapfrogging is not an option. IPv6 is unevitable and the longer it is postponed the more expensive it will be.

Heise has just recently tested 25 different IPv6-capable routers for
home use (https://www.heise.de/tests/25-Router-im-IPv6-Test-Wo-Fritzbox-Co-noch -immer-p atzen-7449159.html). The article is in German and paywalled,
but here is the gist of it: they're all comming with flawed IPv6 implementations.

Did they also test the IPv4 implementations? And they they find zero bugs?

Some (like the AVM box) work almost fine, other not so much, and quite
a number of them cannot be run unattended for a longer time. Smart
move to go for that right now? I'd rather let manufacturers sort out
more of these infant diseases before I start seriously messing with
the stuff.

Fifteen years ago that could have been a chicken and egg problem. Not any more, Bug free implementations are wishfull thinking and if one waits for alle the bugs to be fixed ane can wait till Easter and Pentacost fall on the same Day. IPv6 is on the move and these bugs will be ironed out. Probably creating new bugs in the process. That's life. We have to live with it.

So going for "new technology" always comes with additional costs. You
have to do the migration, live with parallel structures, cope with incompatibilities and new bugs and so on.

Of course.

You have to choose the time wisely to do this.

What is the best time to plant a tree? Twenty years ago! What is the second best time? Now!


Cheers, Michiel

--- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
* Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)

Re: FidoNews 40:01 [02/0
By: Michiel van der Vlist to Rob Swindell on Sun Jan 22 2023 11:37 am

Hello Rob,

On Saturday January 21 2023 11:46, you wrote to me:

IPv4 will stay around for a while but I don't think it will last
many decades.

I think IPv4 will likely be around forever in the embedded/IOT world. Private/local networks don't need IPv6

"Forever"is a long time. Isolated private/local networks may continue to function for a long time. But when they have to interact with the Internet - a requirement for IOT - an IPv4 only network will become ever more isolated in an IPv6 dominated Internet.

IoT devices usually (almost always) interact with the Internet through a gateway (not directly), so IPv6 is still not needed on the IoT device itself.

We are not there yet, but the time that IPv6
will be the dominant protocol is not very far ahead.

That's a prediction, not a fact.

and therefore don't need to pay the price of the additional complexity that comes with IPv6.

Of course there is a price to pay for the transition. But IPv6 is not more compex than IPv4. On the contrary, it is IPv4 that has become more complex because of all the tricks and work arounds to compensate for the shortage of addresses.

The size (in LOC) and cost (e.g. license of commercial offerings) of IPv4-only stacks compared with IPv6-enabled stacks disagrees with that claim.

The difficulty with being 100% conformant with IPv6 (I've taken projects through the "IPv6 Ready Logo" approval processes) is far higher than any equivalent would be for IPv4.

I've put shipping products out there that are both (IPv4 and IPv6/v4) and from that experience, IMHO, there's no comparison in the cost to implement, integrate, validate, and support: IPv6 is more complex and expensive.
--
digital man (rob)

Breaking Bad quote #38:
Don't drink and drive, but when you do, call Saul.
Norco, CA WX: 53.8øF, 41.0% humidity, 0 mph E wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Vertrauen - [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net (1:103/705)

Rob,

IPv6 is more complex and expensive.

So were jet planes when they were introduced ... guess what happened ...

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - MidniteSpecial
* Origin: Many Glacier - Preserve / Protect / Conserve (2:292/854)

Re: Re: FidoNews 40:01 [02/0
By: Ward Dossche to Rob Swindell on Sun Jan 22 2023 11:06 pm

Rob,

IPv6 is more complex and expensive.

So were jet planes when they were introduced ... guess what happened ...

Prop planes are still plentiful and used every day. You just made my point.
--
digital man (rob)

Rush quote #44:
The shifting shafts of shining weave the fabric of their dreams
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Rob,

IPv6 is more complex and expensive.

So were jet planes when they were introduced ... guess what happened

...

Prop planes are still plentiful and used every day. You just made my
point.

Hmmmm ... which current prop-airliner does not have a jet-engine?

I don't know of any ... Fokker-50, Q400, ATR72, Embraer120, PC12 and others all have jet engines.

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - MidniteSpecial
* Origin: Many Glacier - Preserve / Protect / Conserve (2:292/854)

Re: Re: FidoNews 40:01 [02/0
By: Ward Dossche to Rob Swindell on Mon Jan 23 2023 10:44 am

Hmmmm ... which current prop-airliner does not have a jet-engine?

I don't know of any ... Fokker-50, Q400, ATR72, Embraer120, PC12 and others all have jet engines.

Cessna, Piper?


...ëîåï
--- SBBSecho 3.15-Linux
* Origin: I'm playing with ANSI+videotex - wanna play too? (3:633/509)

Hmmmm ... which current prop-airliner does not have a jet-engine?

I don't know of any ... Fokker-50, Q400, ATR72, Embraer120, PC12 and others all have jet engines.

Cessna, Piper?

The smaller historical general aviation propeller planes will only survive for as long as 100LL-fuel will be available. When that runs out or is not anymore produced, the only future for these planes is being recycled into razorblades. 100LL is also very expensive, like depending on the location where you try to refuel more than the double of JetA1.

As a comparison, here in Europe there is only one refinery left still producing 100LL (100 octane low-lead) and it's in Italy serving the whole continent.

Many of these small planes are now being fitted ex-factory with a fast-running diesel engine as it is able to use JetA1 ... JetA1 and diesel are very much alike in formulation.

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - MidniteSpecial
* Origin: Many Glacier - Preserve / Protect / Conserve (2:292/854)

Hello Rob,

On Sunday January 22 2023 11:11, you wrote to me:

"Forever"is a long time. Isolated private/local networks may
continue to function for a long time. But when they have to
interact with the Internet - a requirement for IOT - an IPv4 only
network will become ever more isolated in an IPv6 dominated
Internet.

IoT devices usually (almost always) interact with the Internet through
a gateway (not directly), so IPv6 is still not needed on the IoT
device itself.

Doing away with the gateways will reduce overall cost and complexity.

We are not there yet, but the time that IPv6
will be the dominant protocol is not very far ahead.

That's a prediction, not a fact.

Let's call it a prospect based on extrapolating publicly available data on the growth of IPv6.

Of course there is a price to pay for the transition. But IPv6 is
not more compex than IPv4. On the contrary, it is IPv4 that has
become more complex because of all the tricks and work arounds to
compensate for the shortage of addresses.

The size (in LOC) and cost (e.g. license of commercial offerings) of IPv4-only stacks compared with IPv6-enabled stacks disagrees with that claim.

IPv6 is a public protocol available for all. You have to pay for licenses? So some people are actually making money on selling IPv6 related stuff! Seems you have already missed the boat. Instead of having to pay for it, You could haven been one of those doing the selling. That is another aspect of "the longer the inevitable is postponed, the more expensive it will be".

I've put shipping products out there that are both (IPv4 and IPv6/v4)
and from that experience, IMHO, there's no comparison in the cost to implement, integrate, validate, and support: IPv6 is more complex and expensive.

Now you are comparing IPv4 only to Dual stack. Of course Dual stack is more complex and expensive. The proper comparison should be IPv4 only against IPv6 only.


Cheers, Michiel

--- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
* Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)

Ward Dossche wrote to Rob Swindell <=-

IPv6 is more complex and expensive.

So were jet planes when they were introduced ... guess what
happened

Prop planes are still plentiful and used every day. You just made my point.

Absolutely correct, and a perfect analogy.

Hmmmm ... which current prop-airliner does not have a jet-engine?

He didn't say "airliner". Although I will say that at least here in the
USA, there are PLENTY of commercial/passenger airlines that use
propeller driven aircraft for short distance flights.

I don't know of any ... Fokker-50, Q400, ATR72, Embraer120, PC12
and others all have jet engines.

Blah, blah, blah. You apparently don't know about the 10's of thousands
of propeller aircraft flying every day, just here in the USA.
Cropdusters, "bush planes" in Alaska, hobbyist pilots, search and
rescue, ... the list goes on.

So as Rob said, your (actually incorrect) analogy between jet/prop and
v6/v4 only serves to dis-prove your claims about IPv6. Sure, it will
become more widespread, although more slowly than you and the Fanatic
One think. However that doesn't mean IPv4 will go away, and in fact it
proves that it will not.

You're on a bad streak of luck regarding making silly/wrong/stupid posts
here in FidoNet. Maybe best if you just hunker down and STFU for a
while...



... He does the work of 3 Men...Moe, Larry & Curly
=== MultiMail/Linux v0.52
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:123/115)

Ward Dossche wrote to deon <=-

The smaller historical general aviation propeller planes will
only survive for as long as 100LL-fuel will be available. When
that runs out or is not anymore produced, the only future for
these planes is being recycled into razorblades. 100LL is also
very expensive, like depending on the location where you try to
refuel more than the double of JetA1.

So..... they'll start using UL94 instead.

As a comparison, here in Europe there is only one refinery left
still producing 100LL (100 octane low-lead) and it's in Italy
serving the whole continent.

I haven't researched that, but I really have to doubt that is a true statement.

Many of these small planes are now being fitted ex-factory with a fast-running diesel engine as it is able to use JetA1 ... JetA1
and diesel are very much alike in formulation.

So up above you say the only future for these planes is to be recycled
into razorblades. Now, you say they are/can be re-fitted with a
different engine. So which is it? More double-speak from you.

If you owned a plane, and wanted to continue using it when fuel became
scarce, would you scrap it, or replace it's engine?

Yup.



... He does the work of 3 Men...Moe, Larry & Curly
=== MultiMail/Linux v0.52
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:123/115)

So..... they'll start using UL94 instead.

That's going to fun, a DC3 needing 9-10.000ft for acceleration to reach V1 with no guarantee it will become airborne ...

As a comparison, here in Europe there is only one refinery left
still producing 100LL (100 octane low-lead) and it's in Italy
serving the whole continent.

I haven't researched that, but I really have to doubt that is a true statement.

The staff at the BP refueling island at our airport here says so.

Many of these small planes are now being fitted ex-factory with a
fast-running diesel engine as it is able to use JetA1 ... JetA1
and diesel are very much alike in formulation.

So up above you say the only future for these planes is to be recycled
into razorblades. Now, you say they are/can be re-fitted with a
different engine. So which is it? More double-speak from you.

You really need to start learning to read the words that are written ... you do understand, I hope, what "being fitted ex-factory" means. I can try to explain that to you ...

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - 20220517
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)

He didn't say "airliner". Although I will say that at least here in the USA, there are PLENTY of commercial/passenger airlines that use
propeller driven aircraft for short distance flights.

I never brought "propeller" into the discussion, I said...

"So were jet planes when they were introduced ... guess what happened"

The Fokker-50, Q400, ATR42 and 72, Embraer-120, PC12, Swearingen's Metroliner, Dash7, Twin otter, King Air etc etc all have turbine-engines and by definition therefor are jetplanes.

Cropdusters, "bush planes" in Alaska, hobbyist pilots, search and
rescue, ... the list goes on.

Most crop duster planes these days already have turbine engines, a requirement by the FAA as they also double as waterbombers for small fires.

SAR ... probably all of them already turbine-operated, certainly the helicopters.

Bush planes in Alaska? The ones I flew in were ... turbine planes. A turbine engine is so much more reliable and delivers more thrust.

So as Rob said, your (actually incorrect) analogy between jet/prop and v6/v4 only serves to dis-prove your claims about IPv6.

a) I never mentionned "propeller", Rob did that
b) I'm not the IPv6-guy. A case of mistaken identity?

You're on a bad streak of luck regarding making silly/wrong/stupid posts here in FidoNet. Maybe best if you just hunker down and STFU for a while...

I suggest a course of "Reading 101" for you, something like 7th grade, to learn understanding the difference between what's written and what you hope was written because you don't understand it .....

Take care,

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - 20220517
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)

Re: FidoNews 40:01 [02/0
By: Michiel van der Vlist to Rob Swindell on Mon Jan 23 2023 02:44 pm

Of course there is a price to pay for the transition. But IPv6 is
not more compex than IPv4. On the contrary, it is IPv4 that has
become more complex because of all the tricks and work arounds to
compensate for the shortage of addresses.

The size (in LOC) and cost (e.g. license of commercial offerings) of IPv4-only stacks compared with IPv6-enabled stacks disagrees with that claim.

IPv6 is a public protocol available for all. You have to pay for licenses?

You have to pay for a software license to use commercial-quality embedded TCP/IP stacks, yes.
https://www.highintegritysystems.com/middleware/tcpip-networking/ https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/products/rtos/#tabxe5e4eaae92c64820b53b5d7d780631a8

So some people are actually making money on selling IPv6 related stuff!

Of course.

Seems you have already missed the boat. Instead of having to pay for it, You could haven been one of those doing the selling.

I was. Sold millions of units. You're likely using one between our communication paths right now.

I've put shipping products out there that are both (IPv4 and IPv6/v4) and from that experience, IMHO, there's no comparison in the cost to implement, integrate, validate, and support: IPv6 is more complex and expensive.

Now you are comparing IPv4 only to Dual stack. Of course Dual stack is more complex and expensive. The proper comparison should be IPv4 only against IPv6 only.

In the embedded/IoT world, even the completely free/open-source world, IPv6 stacks aren't the norm: it's IPv4 or a dual-stack - those are your options. https://savannah.nongnu.org/task/?13480

That said, even IPv6-only stacks are far larger and more complex than IPv4-only stacks.
--
digital man (rob)

Synchronet/BBS Terminology Definition #39:
HTTP = Hypertext Transfer Protocol
Norco, CA WX: 51.6øF, 29.0% humidity, 8 mph E wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs
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Hello Rob,

Why'd you change the subject from "planes" to "airliners"? I just flew in
a prop plane recently ...

I never mentioned prop planes either, just jetplanes.

(between Puerto Rico and the US Virgin Islands) and
guess what happened? The less complex and expensive prop plane got my family and the pilot there quickly and safely, no IPv6 required!

I've traveled a lot, but never been to that location. Pretty tropical I assume? Hot? Humid?

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - 20220517
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)

Re: Re: FidoNews 40:01 [02/0
By: Ward Dossche to Rob Swindell on Mon Jan 23 2023 07:37 pm

Hello Rob,

Why'd you change the subject from "planes" to "airliners"? I just flew in
a prop plane recently ...

I never mentioned prop planes either, just jetplanes.

Okay, then "non jetplanes" are still in active use, long after jetplanes were invented.

(between Puerto Rico and the US Virgin Islands) and
guess what happened? The less complex and expensive prop plane got my family and the pilot there quickly and safely, no IPv6 required!

I've traveled a lot, but never been to that location. Pretty tropical I assume? Hot? Humid?

We went to St Thomas for a few weeks. Very tropical, not humid, not too hot (was there in June/July). Beautiful. Not the clearest water (for snorkeling) compared to other islands, but clear enough and a lot of variety of sea life to see and photograph.
--
digital man (rob)

Rush quote #30:
You can do a lot in a lifetime if you don't burn out too fast
Norco, CA WX: 54.4øF, 27.0% humidity, 2 mph NW wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Vertrauen - [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net (1:103/705)

Hello Rob,

On Monday January 23 2023 09:39, you wrote to me:

In the embedded/IoT world, even the completely free/open-source world, IPv6 stacks aren't the norm: it's IPv4 or a dual-stack - those are
your options. https://savannah.nongnu.org/task/?13480

That is the situation now. It can change.

FreeBSD can be compiled without the IPv4 stack.

https://www.sidnlabs.nl/en/news-and-blogs/can-we-do-without-ipv4-yet-news-of-our-annual-i pv6-only-experiment


Cheers, Michiel

--- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
* Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)

Dan Clough wrote to Ward Dossche <=-

He didn't say "airliner". Although I will say that at least here in
the USA, there are PLENTY of commercial/passenger airlines that use propeller driven aircraft for short distance flights.

I just booked a flight on a short-haul airliner for a business trip, to
get from a regional airport to a larger hub for the flight home. There's nothing like walking across the tarmac, having the flight attendant
eyeball me at the top of the stairs and tell me to sit above the wing as
to not upset the center of gravity of the plane. :)


... DON'T EAT CABBAGE
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
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Kurt Weiske wrote to Dan Clough <=-

Dan Clough wrote to Ward Dossche <=-

He didn't say "airliner". Although I will say that at least here in
the USA, there are PLENTY of commercial/passenger airlines that use propeller driven aircraft for short distance flights.

I just booked a flight on a short-haul airliner for a business
trip, to get from a regional airport to a larger hub for the
flight home.

Yes, I have frequently done the same. I guess we're not as advanced as
the Euro-boys, who use jets for everything. ;-)

There's nothing like walking across the tarmac,
having the flight attendant eyeball me at the top of the stairs
and tell me to sit above the wing as to not upset the center of
gravity of the plane. :)

Hahahahaha, that's outstanding! LOL I do know exactly what you mean
about walking out on the tarmac, with carryon bag, and then leaving that
at the foot of the boarding stairs so it can be loaded aboard (overhead
bins either not available or too small). I actually like doing that,
with the smell of burnt fuel in the air, the wind, maybe some rain.
Seems more adventurous. :-)



... All hope abandon, ye who enter messages here.
=== MultiMail/Linux v0.52
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On 25 Jan 23 07:44:00, Dan Clough said the following to Kurt Weiske:

Yes, I have frequently done the same. I guess we're not as advanced as the Euro-boys, who use jets for everything. ;-)

You missed the conversations had about bidets vs. toilet paper...

Nick

--- Renegade vY2Ka2
* Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)

Dan Clough wrote to Kurt Weiske <=-

Hahahahaha, that's outstanding! LOL I do know exactly what you mean about walking out on the tarmac, with carryon bag, and then leaving
that at the foot of the boarding stairs so it can be loaded aboard (overhead bins either not available or too small). I actually like
doing that, with the smell of burnt fuel in the air, the wind, maybe
some rain. Seems more adventurous. :-)

I flew to St. John in Canada (SFO with a stop in Montreal, then a
puddle-jumper to St. John) and when I walked down the stairs, had a walk
into what felt like the set from the TV show wings. There were 3 doors
marked gate 1, gate 2, and gate 3. The luggage carrousel was tiny, and
you could see hands pushing the luggage through.



... Powered By Celeron (Tualatin). Engineered for the future.
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
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I just booked a flight on a short-haul airliner for a business trip, to
get from a regional airport to a larger hub for the flight home. There's nothing like walking across the tarmac, having the flight attendant
eyeball me at the top of the stairs and tell me to sit above the wing as
to not upset the center of gravity of the plane. :)

Did that involve body-mass or the weight of the ego? 8-)

{I'm sorry, I will not do that again}

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - 20220519
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I just booked a flight on a short-haul airliner for a business
trip, to get from a regional airport to a larger hub for the
flight home.

Yes, I have frequently done the same. I guess we're not as advanced as
the Euro-boys, who use jets for everything. ;-)

And, pray, please tell me how many of these were 'not' turbine operated ?

Hahahahaha, that's outstanding! LOL I do know exactly what you mean
about walking out on the tarmac, with carryon bag, and then leaving that
at the foot of the boarding stairs so it can be loaded aboard ...

If you walk across the tarmac with a carryon bag and leave it at the bottom of the stairs, airport staff should throw it in the garbage as it probably was not inspected and approved by the USDA.

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - 20220519
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Re: Re: FidoNews 40:01 [02/0
By: Ward Dossche to Kurt Weiske on Wed Jan 25 2023 04:35 pm

Did that involve body-mass or the weight of the ego? 8-)

I am a leaf on the wind.
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Did that involve body-mass or the weight of the ego? 8-)

I am a leaf on the wind.

That could be the opening verse of an epic poem describing the invasion of Middle Earth ...

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Ward Dossche wrote to Dan Clough <=-

Hahahahaha, that's outstanding! LOL I do know exactly what you mean about walking out on the tarmac, with carryon bag, and then leaving that at the foot of the boarding stairs so it can be loaded aboard ...

If you walk across the tarmac with a carryon bag and leave it at
the bottom of the stairs, airport staff should throw it in the
garbage as it probably was not inspected and approved by the
USDA.

As a self-proclaimed expert on the USA, you sure don't know much about
how USA airports work. I won't waste any more of my time trying to
explain it to you, and no reply from you is needed.


... He does the work of 3 Men...Moe, Larry & Curly
=== MultiMail/Linux v0.52
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:123/115)

Kurt Weiske wrote to Dan Clough <=-

Dan Clough wrote to Kurt Weiske <=-

Hahahahaha, that's outstanding! LOL I do know exactly what you mean about walking out on the tarmac, with carryon bag, and then leaving
that at the foot of the boarding stairs so it can be loaded aboard (overhead bins either not available or too small). I actually like
doing that, with the smell of burnt fuel in the air, the wind, maybe
some rain. Seems more adventurous. :-)

I flew to St. John in Canada (SFO with a stop in Montreal, then a puddle-jumper to St. John) and when I walked down the stairs, had
a walk into what felt like the set from the TV show wings. There
were 3 doors marked gate 1, gate 2, and gate 3. The luggage
carrousel was tiny, and you could see hands pushing the luggage
through.

I can picture that perfectly! I think people should slow down sometimes
and travel like that. :-)



... Potted meat: all the other stuff too vile for hot dogs.
=== MultiMail/Linux v0.52
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* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:123/115)

Nick Andre wrote to Dan Clough <=-

On 25 Jan 23 07:44:00, Dan Clough said the following to Kurt
Weiske:

Yes, I have frequently done the same. I guess we're not as advanced as the Euro-boys, who use jets for everything. ;-)

You missed the conversations had about bidets vs. toilet paper...

LOL, I think I do remember that. The only debate that matters is
whether the paper should come off the top of the roll, or the bottom.

(Correct answer is TOP).



... Then the manure hit the rotary air displacement unit.
=== MultiMail/Linux v0.52
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Hello Dan!

25 Jan 23 07:44, Dan Clough wrote to Kurt Weiske:

Yes, I have frequently done the same. I guess we're not as advanced
as
the Euro-boys, who use jets for everything. ;-)

Well, maybe there are other options, too. This is one: Flying short-range isn't too popular over here. One reason for this might be that Europe has a passenger train network that lowers the need for short-range flights significantly.


Regards,
Gerrit

... 7:02PM up 309 days, 1:08, 7 users, load averages: 0.94, 0.73, 0.66

--- msged/fbsd 6.3 2021-12-02
* Origin: We are a nation of innovations (2:240/12)

Gerrit Kuehn wrote to Dan Clough <=-

25 Jan 23 07:44, Dan Clough wrote to Kurt Weiske:

Yes, I have frequently done the same. I guess we're not as advanced
as the Euro-boys, who use jets for everything. ;-)

Well, maybe there are other options, too. This is one: Flying
short-range isn't too popular over here. One reason for this
might be that Europe has a passenger train network that lowers
the need for short-range flights significantly.

Good point, and likely very true!

My comment above was just having a play with Ward, who always has to
devolve a conversation into word-play which he thinks makes him seem
wise. It's just his laughable attempt to imply that even
most "propeller" driven aircraft use "jet" engines, as in "turbo-prop".
While that is also likely true, he refuses to acknowledge that there's a difference between that and an actual jet engine driven airplane. Just another reflection of his obsessive need to appear wise and "slick", by twisting others' words to make it seem like they don't know anything.

He is cheap entertainment, and makes me laugh. ;-)



... Pity the poor corpuscle, for he labours in vein.
=== MultiMail/Linux v0.52
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:123/115)

If you walk across the tarmac with a carryon bag and leave it at
the bottom of the stairs, airport staff should throw it in the
garbage as it probably was not inspected and approved by the
USDA.

As a self-proclaimed expert on the USA, you sure don't know much about
how USA airports work. I won't waste any more of my time trying to
explain it to you, and no reply from you is needed.

Oh dear, I never knew your knowledge of the english language was that bad ... when one must explain the joke for the other to hopefully understand it, then the situation is bad ... real bad ...

You need help? 8-)

\%/@rd

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On 26 Jan 23 16:23:10, Lee Lofaso said the following to Nick Andre:

Yes, I have frequently done the same. I guess we're not as advanced
the Euro-boys, who use jets for everything. ;-)

You missed the conversations had about bidets vs. toilet paper...

Use your hand.

The troll says what?

Nick

--- Renegade vY2Ka2
* Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)

Bomb squad will be called out and the carryon bag will be no more.
Squad car will be called out and DC will become the sole passenger.

It's painful that neither you nor Dan Clough can differentiate between 'carryon' and 'carry-on' ... I thought the both of you were native speakers of the language ...

Let me explain with a joke ... Did you know that when vultures are traveling by airplane, they're only allowed one carryon in their carry-on?

It's so weird having to explain jokes ... Michiel will not like this.

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - 20220519
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Re: Re: FidoNews 40:01 [02/0
By: Ward Dossche to Lee Lofaso on Thu Jan 26 2023 04:57 pm

Hey

Let me explain with a joke ... Did you know that when vultures are traveling by airplane, they're only allowed one carryon in their carry-on?

I dont think your joke translated ?

The word is carrion, not carryon and I must admit, its not a word that I've used that often (if at all actually) - so I wouldnt have made the connection from carryon.

Ha! I just extended the joke, airplane... connection... ? ;)


...ëîåï
--- SBBSecho 3.15-Linux
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Did you know that when vultures are traveling
by airplane, they're only allowed one carryon in their carry-on?

...

The word is carrion, not carryon and I must admit, its not a word that
I've used that often (if at all actually) - so I wouldnt have made the connection from carryon.

Aw c'mon ... it is a beautiful joke ... 8-) ... and a play of words. I already feel bad being someone whose english is only his 3rd language having to explain a word-joke to generic english speaking people.

Ha! I just extended the joke, airplane... connection... ? ;)

8-)

And then good 'ol Dan having to use some choice words adding insult to injury.

Especially for Dan, I've flown the route Salt Lake City to Missoula (MSO) a couple of dozen times on Delta. Most of the time with a CRJ200, as good as no overhead space and, yes, we left our carry-on also near the ramp.

Enjoy the week-end,

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - 20220519
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Hello Ward,

Bomb squad will be called out and the carryon bag will be no more.
Squad car will be called out and DC will become the sole passenger.

It's painful that neither you nor Dan Clough can differentiate between 'carryon' and 'carry-on' ...

There is no such word as "carryon" in any language that I know of.

But that is not what you wrote.

I thought the both of you were native speakers of the language ...

My native language is Cajun French, not English or Belgian.

The English word "carrion" is "charagne" in Cajun French.
The English phrase "carry on" is "poursuivre" in Cajun French.

Two very different words, with different meanings.

Dan speaks Texan.
I have no idea as to how to translate anything of what he says.

Let me explain with a joke ...

A Belgian explaining a joke to a Cajun. This should be interesting ...

Did you know that when vultures are traveling by airplane, they're only allowed one carryon in their carry-on?

Only in Texas. Cajuns travel by airboat.

It's so weird having to explain jokes ... Michiel will not like this.

Cajuns have levees.
The Dutch have dikes.
But Cajuns are smart.
We have a pirogue.
And a paddle.
Always knowing what to do.
When the land is sinking.
And the water is rising ...

For Life,
Lee

--
Change Is Cumming

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
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On 27 Jan 23 20:03:03, Ward Dossche said the following to Lee Lofaso:

My native language is Cajun French, not English or Belgian.

There is no language called "Belgian", also not "Belginese" ...

There is 2 hours of begging, "Belgian foreplay".

Nick

--- Renegade vY2Ka2
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My native language is Cajun French, not English or Belgian.

There is no language called "Belgian", also not "Belginese" ...

There is 2 hours of begging, "Belgian foreplay".

But think of the reward at the end ... the pot of gold ...

\%/@rd

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