• Psych Report Needed

    From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Daniel on Thu Apr 30 06:19:24 2020
    Thank you for this example of socialism as a failed ethos.

    Thank you for not giving even *one* *single* of filed ethos. As usual with Donald. DUH!



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  • From Daniel@1:340/7 to Lee Lofaso on Wed Apr 29 18:27:00 2020
    Lee Lofaso wrote to Daniel <=-

    Hello Daniel,

    The state of Louisiana offers free college tuition for its residents.
    The state of Louisiana used to offer free medical care as well, until
    the last Republican governor dismantled the hospital system that had
    worked so well for decades.

    Thank you for this example of socialism as a failed ethos.

    Works great. A wealthy oil tycoon got it all started, decades ago.
    The state legislature then expanded the program to what it is today.


    I suppose a socialist considers all failures as success. I'm done with you, the deception has infiltrated your mind to the grain. Have a blast, wherever you live and we're glad you're not a voter here.


    ... Visit me at: gopher://gcpp.world
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  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Daniel on Thu Apr 30 19:01:54 2020
    Hello Daniel,

    The state of Louisiana offers free college tuition for its residents.
    The state of Louisiana used to offer free medical care as well, until
    the last Republican governor dismantled the hospital system that had
    worked so well for decades.

    Thank you for this example of socialism as a failed ethos.

    Works great. A wealthy oil tycoon got it all started, decades ago.
    The state legislature then expanded the program to what it is today.


    I suppose a socialist considers all failures as success. I'm done with you, the deception has infiltrated your mind to the grain. Have a blast, wherever lyou ive and we're glad you're not a voter here.

    Government provides, business denies.

    --Lee

    --
    Nobody Beats Our Meat

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  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Lee Lofaso on Thu Apr 30 19:37:44 2020
    Government provides, business denies.

    In Daniel- and Nick-land tax payer money should go all away into businesses.
    But you knew that already, yes?




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  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Björn Felten on Thu Apr 30 23:57:50 2020
    Hello Bj”rn,

    That's OK. Just don't forget to inject your daily doses of bleach
    and you'll be fine.

    You're a funny guy. Didn't your mom teach you not to lie? I know we're
    on a bbs echo, but let's get real here.

    So that's how you Trumpsters explain what the world is laughing at now? No longer the obvious lie that it was "a sarcastic question"? I see...

    No. I do not believe you do.

    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered
    by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which
    blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves." ~Dresden James

    Now do you understand?

    --Lee

    --
    Big Or Small We Lay Them All

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  • From Kurt Weiske@1:218/700 to Bj-rn Felten on Wed Apr 29 07:59:00 2020
    Bj-rn Felten wrote to Daniel <=-

    That's OK. Just don't forget to inject your daily doses of bleach
    and you'll be fine.

    He's afraid of needles. Clorox Chewables are the way to go.


    ... Remember quiet evenings
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  • From Daniel@1:340/7 to Lee Lofaso on Thu Apr 30 17:04:00 2020
    Lee Lofaso wrote to Daniel <=-

    Hello Daniel,

    The state of Louisiana offers free college tuition for its residents.
    The state of Louisiana used to offer free medical care as well, until
    the last Republican governor dismantled the hospital system that had
    worked so well for decades.

    Thank you for this example of socialism as a failed ethos.

    Works great. A wealthy oil tycoon got it all started, decades ago.
    The state legislature then expanded the program to what it is today.


    I suppose a socialist considers all failures as success. I'm done with you, the deception has infiltrated your mind to the grain. Have a blast, wherever lyou ive and we're glad you're not a voter here.

    Government provides, business denies.

    History shows otherwise. Have you tried living in Cuba? You'd love it.

    ... Visit me at: gopher://gcpp.world
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  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Kurt Weiske on Fri May 1 04:14:50 2020
    He's afraid of needles. Clorox Chewables are the way to go.

    LOL! I can sympathize with that. I'm not all that keen on having needles pricked into me.

    So drinking soluables seems much better for those people.



    ..

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  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Kurt Weiske on Fri May 1 04:34:46 2020
    Hello Kurt,

    That's OK. Just don't forget to inject your daily doses of bleach
    and you'll be fine.

    He's afraid of needles. Clorox Chewables are the way to go.

    There's always the other end.
    No.
    Don't even think that ...

    --Lee

    --
    We Put Big Loads In Tight Places

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  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Björn Felten on Fri May 1 04:34:54 2020
    Hello Bj”rn,

    Government provides, business denies.

    In Daniel- and Nick-land tax payer money should go all away into
    businesses.
    But you knew that already, yes?

    Well, with nobody around who has anything left to spend ...

    --Lee

    --
    Change Is Cumming

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  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Eric Oulashin on Fri May 1 12:28:50 2020
    Hello Eric,

    The state of Louisiana offers free college tuition for its residents.
    The state of Louisiana used to offer free medical care as well, until
    the last Republican governor dismantled the hospital system that had
    worked so well for decades.

    Thank you for this example of socialism as a failed ethos.

    Works great. A wealthy oil tycoon got it all started, decades ago.
    The state legislature then expanded the program to what it is today.


    I suppose a socialist considers all failures as success. I'm done EO>with
    you, the deception has infiltrated your mind to the grain. EO>Have a blast, wherever lyou ive and we're glad you're not a voter EO>here.

    Government provides, business denies.

    History shows otherwise. Have you tried living in Cuba? You'd love it.

    Been there. Done that. Best sand bar on the planet.

    --Lee

    --
    We Make Your Wet Dreams Come True

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  • From Eric Oulashin@1:340/7 to Lee Lofaso on Fri May 1 12:06:14 2020
    Re: Psych Report Needed
    By: Lee Lofaso to Eric Oulashin on Fri May 01 2020 12:28 pm

    Been there. Done that. Best sand bar on the planet.

    I didn't write what you are replying to, so I'm not sure why your reply is directed at me.

    Eric
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  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12 to Lee Lofaso on Sat May 2 08:40:02 2020
    Re: Psych Report Needed
    By: Lee Lofaso to Eric Oulashin on Sat May 02 2020 04:52:49


    I didn't write what you are replying to, so I'm not sure why your reply is directed at me.

    At the bottom of the page was a node number with your name on it ...

    --Lee

    --
    Often Licked, Never Beaten
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    well, look at that... this node number has Björn Felten's node number on it... signature notwithstanding, it must be Björn that wrote it and not some fake entity supposedly known as Lee Lofaso... see how that works? GoodJob!<tm> thanks for playing!


    )\/(ark
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  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to mark lewis on Sat May 2 23:48:54 2020
    Hello mark,

    [..]

    well, look at that... this node number has Bj”rn Felten's node number

    Amazing, isn't it? Sysops own node numbers! Who'd a thunk it?

    --Lee

    --
    Sleep With Someone New

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  • From Kurt Weiske@1:218/700 to Lee Lofaso on Sat May 2 17:58:10 2020
    Re: Psych Report Needed
    By: Lee Lofaso to mark lewis on Sat May 02 2020 11:48 pm

    Amazing, isn't it? Sysops own node numbers! Who'd a thunk it?

    I've had my node number for a while, the lease is almost up on it.
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  • From David Drummond@3:640/305 to Daniel on Mon May 4 13:34:24 2020
    On 27/04/2020 15:26, 1340/7 wrote:

    ; May I ask if you live in the US?

     BF>>     Good heavens no. I couldn't live in a country where all politicians
     BF>> are bribed.

    Wow, absolute rubbish. There's right and wrong. And then, there's 'not even wrong.' You fit in the 'not even wrong' category. Your simple sentence said quite a bit, believe it or not.

    I'm so very glad you don't live here. It's bad enough that the liberals have
    turned our education system into a joke. We have a growing population of kids
    who think earth is flat. So we can live without people like you.

    I'm sure that Björn is absolutely heartbroken about your dismissal.

    I know this may shock you but not everyone in the world wants to live in USA.

    --
    Regards
    David

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  • From Daniel@1:340/7 to David Drummond on Mon May 4 10:32:00 2020
    David Drummond wrote to Daniel <=-

    On 27/04/2020 15:26, 1340/7 wrote:

    D>> May I ask if you live in the US?

    BF>> Good heavens no. I couldn't live in a country where all
    politicians
    BF>> are bribed.

    Wow, absolute rubbish. There's right and wrong. And then, there's 'not even wrong.' You fit in the 'not even wrong' category. Your simple sentence said quite a bit, believe it or not.

    I'm so very glad you don't live here. It's bad enough that the liberals
    have
    turned our education system into a joke. We have a growing population of
    kids
    who think earth is flat. So we can live without people like you.

    I'm sure that Bj.rn is absolutely heartbroken about your dismissal.

    Interesting. Was this outlandish comment designed to hurt me or is this your way of dismissing me? Both?

    I know this may shock you but not everyone in the world wants to live
    in USA.

    It's not shocking at all. That's your right, whereverthat is, and I'm delighted you are living in a country that makes you happy. It's a sign of nationalism and hate that drives someone to discuss personal disdain for other countries in a public forum. It's mindblowing, especially when I hear it from those on the left. You know, the side who falsely self-assigns values such as openmindedness, acceptance, unity, etc.

    Daniel Traechin
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  • From David Drummond@3:640/305 to Daniel on Thu May 7 08:12:24 2020
    On 5/05/2020 03:32, 1340/7 wrote:

    ; I'm so very glad you don't live here. It's bad enough that the liberals have
    ; turned our education system into a joke. We have a growing population of kids
    ; who think earth is flat. So we can live without people like you.

     DD>> I'm sure that Bj.rn is absolutely heartbroken about your dismissal.

    Interesting. Was this outlandish comment designed to hurt me or is this your
    way of dismissing me? Both?

    Probably both. Indifference to your opinion may also be in there.

     DD>> I know this may shock you but not everyone in the world wants to live
     DD>> in USA.

    It's not shocking at all. That's your right, whereverthat is, and I'm delighted
    you are living in a country that makes you happy. It's a sign of nationalism
    and hate that drives someone to discuss personal disdain for other countries in
    a public forum. It's mindblowing, especially when I hear it from those on the
    left. You know, the side who falsely self-assigns values such as openmindedness, acceptance, unity, etc.

    Nationalism is one of the great faults of the modern world. When the one world government comes into its own, when we're all pulling for humankind as a whole instead of competing on silly patriotic fronts, the world will be a better place for all.

    By being glad that Björn doesn't live in USA shows how open minded and accepting you are?

    BTW - I am not "on the left". I am right handed. I have no political affiliations what-so-ever. I do not support any political party. I do not even vote for any of them (as most Fidonetters already know, I am not actually entitled to vote).

    --
    Regards
    David

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  • From Dennisk@3:633/416 to David Drummond on Thu May 7 12:21:30 2020
    Re: Psych Report Needed
    By: David Drummond to Daniel on Thu May 07 2020 08:12 am

    Nationalism is one of the great faults of the modern world. When the one world government comes into its own, when we're all pulling for humankind as a whole instead of competing on silly patriotic fronts, the world will be a better place for all.

    By being glad that Björn doesn't live in USA shows how open minded and accepting you are?

    BTW - I am not "on the left". I am right handed. I have no political affiliations what-so-ever. I do not support any political party. I do not even vote for any of them (as most Fidonetters already know, I am not actually entitled to vote).

    --
    Regards
    David

    Do people really believe that a one world government is workable, or even desirable? This kind of belief seems to be a peculiarly Western belief, which arises with more decadent thinkers. There is no humanity pulling all together, this should be painfully obvious now, and if people still believe in this, they will be eaten alive by those with stronger group loyalties.

    I would rather humanity in distinct nations, a patchwork world of seperate peoples with their own culture, their own home, with ownership over their own nation, than the nightmare dystopia of a technocratic one-world mega-beaurocracy.

    This sooner this foolish idea that it is in our destiny to form "one world", the better.
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  • From Gerrit Kuehn@2:240/12 to David Drummond on Thu May 7 08:21:20 2020
    Hello David!

    07 May 20 08:12, David Drummond wrote to Daniel:

    Nationalism is one of the great faults of the modern world.

    A true statement, and truly understated.


    Regards,
    Gerrit

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  • From Gerrit Kuehn@2:240/12 to Dennisk on Thu May 7 08:23:20 2020
    Hello Dennisk!

    07 May 20 12:21, Dennisk wrote to David Drummond:


    This sooner this foolish idea that it is in our destiny to form "one world",
    the better.

    We'll see how evolution works on this. Lately, "the world" is changing so fast that it'll probably take some time to catch up. Running the modern world with the mechanics of a stone-age society in our minds won't work forever.

    Meanwhile, can you come up with anything you like that nationalism has achieved for us (or just you) since, say, the French Revolution?


    Regards,
    Gerrit

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  • From Dennisk@3:633/416 to Gerrit Kuehn on Thu May 7 22:50:00 2020
    Gerrit Kuehn wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Hello Dennisk!

    07 May 20 12:21, Dennisk wrote to David Drummond:


    This sooner this foolish idea that it is in our destiny to form "one world",
    the better.

    We'll see how evolution works on this. Lately, "the world" is changing
    so fast that it'll probably take some time to catch up. Running the
    modern world with the mechanics of a stone-age society in our minds
    won't work forever.

    Meanwhile, can you come up with anything you like that nationalism has achieved for us (or just you) since, say, the French Revolution?


    Regards,
    Gerrit

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    Evolution works on groups, so if you don't work for your group, you are out. There is a conflict between ideals and the hard, physical reality of nature.

    As for what has Nationalism done? Well, the assertion of national sovreignty liberated many countries from their colonial masters, it helped drive the break up of Communist states and helped drive a political alternative to monarchy and absolutism. I would also argue that Nation states based on heredity are best situated to offer people freedom, rather than "propositional" states, which must impose their propositions on the population.

    You may be under the impression that Nationalism is just Nazi Germany and Mussolini, but that position doesn't hold water. I take Nationalism in its literal sense, that is, the organisation of political and economic insitutions around a nation of people, FOR a nation of people. That gives the institutions and economic a locus, a focus, a definite people to which they must serve. When a state becomes an empire, it is not longer a nation state.

    Otherwise, you just have beaurocracies at the top, with the people just being interchangeable cogs, who serve the institution. One must always ask the quesiton, who is the government FOR?? We have in the past had systems where the instution was the purpose of life (monarchies, empires, Communism), but a system, such as that explicitely created when the USA was founded, that the country exists by the people, of the people, FOR the people, is the best system that we have. And that essentially is a Nationalistic position, because it is a recognition that we, the identifiable group of people, create the state for *our* posterity and wellbeing.

    What is the alternative? Beaurocracies at the top, where the instution, not a people, is the focus of human enterprise? Where we exist to serve some abstract entity, rather than those entities serving us?

    Lastly, in my lifetime, the number of nation states has increased, not decreased. Countries have broken apart, some have gained independence. I haven't seen any mergers, and experiments such as the EU, are looking very shaky indeed.

    ... Dennis Katsonis
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  • From Kurt Weiske@1:218/700 to Gerrit Kuehn on Thu May 7 07:03:00 2020
    Gerrit Kuehn wrote to David Drummond <=-

    07 May 20 08:12, David Drummond wrote to Daniel:

    Nationalism is one of the great faults of the modern world.

    A true statement, and truly understated.

    Modern?


    ... What are you really thinking about just now?
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  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Kurt Weiske on Thu May 7 19:06:36 2020
    Nationalism is one of the great faults of the modern world.

    A true statement, and truly understated.

    Modern?

    Depends on where you set the limit.

    How about: when the apes *imagined* that they understood the difference between black and brown apes?




    ..

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  • From Gerrit Kuehn@2:240/12 to Kurt Weiske on Thu May 7 20:55:06 2020
    Hello Kurt!

    07 May 20 07:03, Kurt Weiske wrote to Gerrit Kuehn:


    Nationalism is one of the great faults of the modern world.

    A true statement, and truly understated.

    Modern?

    Depends on what you call "modern". I'd say over here in Europe nationalism as we know it today started around the time of the French Revolution to have something to replace the king.


    Regards,
    Gerrit

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  • From Gerrit Kuehn@2:240/12 to Dennisk on Thu May 7 20:57:18 2020
    Hello Dennisk!

    07 May 20 22:50, Dennisk wrote to Gerrit Kuehn:


    Evolution works on groups, so if you don't work for your group, you
    are out.

    So where does it say how large this group has to be? In previous times the typical group size people lived in was something like 100 people (give or leave 50). That's the size where you can still know everybody personally. Beyond that size, the game is different. However, plenty of our mind is still working in this archaic mode, and the more crowded and the more connected and entwined the world gets, the lesser this fits reality and life.

    There is a conflict between ideals and the hard, physical reality of nature.

    An interesting note here might be that we all have ideals, we all have ethics, religion and so on. These are there to make large groups of people work. Without them, our societies would fall apart into clans or tribes of around 100 people like it used to be.

    As for what has Nationalism done? Well, the assertion of national sovreignty
    liberated many countries from their colonial masters, it helped drive
    the break
    up of Communist states and helped drive a political alternative to monarchy and
    absolutism. I would also argue that Nation states based on heredity
    are best
    situated to offer people freedom, rather than "propositional" states, which
    must impose their propositions on the population.

    That's one side of the coin, although I don't see how you are going to proof you last statement, but well.

    You may be under the impression that Nationalism is just Nazi Germany
    and
    Mussolini, but that position doesn't hold water. I take Nationalism
    in its
    literal sense, that is, the organisation of political and economic insitutions
    around a nation of people, FOR a nation of people. That gives the institutions
    and economic a locus, a focus, a definite people to which they must
    serve.

    You're able to think like this because you live in a nation that hasn't been plagued by bloody wars for centuries. Wars that have primarily been caused and fed by nationalism of one or the other colour. Even the colonialism you said above to be ended by nationalism is usually driven by it.

    country exists by the people, of the people, FOR the people, is the
    best system
    that we have. And that essentially is a Nationalistic position,
    because it is
    a recognition that we, the identifiable group of people, create the
    state for
    *our* posterity and wellbeing.

    Limited to people living in that particular country and given their share in wellbeing. Wellbeing for people in a system like that is essentially created by other people being not-so-well off. These can be outside your country, or even inside.
    A nation is not an island, and it nowadays hardly can exist without the rest of the world around it. That's part of the game change I was talking about earlier. The whole planet has become so "global" in the 20th and 21st century, why should we run it with concepts mainly invented in the 18th/19th century? Concepts that /brought/ us wars, racism, colonialism, and slavery (to name just a few) in dimensions never seen before.

    Nationalism requires to divide people into more or less arbitrary groups, you said it to be based on "heredity". What sense does that make? I can look back in my ancestry, and just by going back 4 generations I'll find people from more or less all over Europe. So what sense does it make that I am "German", a nation mainly invented about 150 years ago by the warlords of that time on their recently conquered territory that used to consist of around 40 countries 200 years ago (and hundreds of these before that)?

    What is the alternative? Beaurocracies at the top, where the
    instution, not a
    people, is the focus of human enterprise? Where we exist to serve
    some
    abstract entity, rather than those entities serving us?

    Nope, but that is just /how/ a country is run, not /why/.

    Lastly, in my lifetime, the number of nation states has increased, not decreased. Countries have broken apart, some have gained
    independence. I
    haven't seen any mergers, and experiments such as the EU, are looking
    very
    shaky indeed.

    How old are you? FRG and GDR merged in 1990. North and South Vietnam merged in 1976.

    But "mergers" are usually driven by a powerful player (see my comment on German history above), often under the claim of "forming a nation". Europe has seen plenty of it, and the EU has been formed to overcome exactly that. Up to now it worked out pretty well on that part.
    Russia merging with Crimera, or China with with Tibet or HongKong (or maybe soon with Taiwan) are perfect examples of the road nationalism goes.


    Regards,
    Gerrit

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  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Björn Felten on Fri May 8 00:58:08 2020
    Hello Bj”rn,

    Nationalism is one of the great faults of the modern world.

    A true statement, and truly understated.

    Modern?

    Depends on where you set the limit.

    How about: when the apes *imagined* that they understood the difference between black and brown apes?

    Me Tarzan. You Jane.

    --Lee

    --
    Get Her Wet Here

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  • From Dennisk@3:633/416 to Gerrit Kuehn on Fri May 8 09:36:00 2020
    Gerrit Kuehn wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Hello Dennisk!

    07 May 20 22:50, Dennisk wrote to Gerrit Kuehn:


    Evolution works on groups, so if you don't work for your group, you
    are out.

    So where does it say how large this group has to be? In previous times
    the typical group size people lived in was something like 100 people
    (give or leave 50). That's the size where you can still know everybody personally. Beyond that size, the game is different. However, plenty of our mind is still working in this archaic mode, and the more crowded
    and the more connected and entwined the world gets, the lesser this
    fits reality and life.

    I don't know exactly, but 150 is based on personal interactions with no political/social infrastructure or technology. I've worked in companies with more than 150 people on site, and human society has existed in groups larger than 150 from the neolitic era. These things sort themselves out organically. We can see the China must use force and coercion to keep the country together, otherwise it would fracture. Clearly here, we can say that China as a political entity is encompassing more people than it should as some, such as the Tibetans, would prefer to be under their own political entity. Same for the Kurds. One could argue that the USA itself is seperate nations held together.

    The problem I have, is this assumption of "archaic". Such a statement needs explanation, otherwise it is just an arbitrary assertion, a prejudice. We also eat and love, these are "archaic" too. We have families, this is also "archaic". To use the term in a negative manner and to imply that an idea must go, one has to make a case for why it is no longer relevant. The Western belief in the inevitability of an "one world" seems rooted in fancy, in fiction and idealism, rather than a sober analysis of reality. It is not an empricial observation. What needs to happen, is usually different to what is assumed would happen.

    There is a conflict between ideals and the hard, physical reality of nature.

    An interesting note here might be that we all have ideals, we all have ethics, religion and so on. These are there to make large groups of
    people work. Without them, our societies would fall apart into clans or tribes of around 100 people like it used to be.

    I agree. I do not advocate tribalism. However, these religions, these large groups need some sort of anchor, some uniting commonality that makes the enterprise valid. At some level, I need to be able to work with others and we must have some agreement as to whom the political/economic enterprise is for. If we are completely nationless, without group belonging, this is hard to do.


    As for what has Nationalism done? Well, the assertion of national sovreignty
    liberated many countries from their colonial masters, it helped drive
    the break
    up of Communist states and helped drive a political alternative to
    monarchy and
    absolutism. I would also argue that Nation states based on heredity
    are best
    situated to offer people freedom, rather than "propositional" states,
    which
    must impose their propositions on the population.

    That's one side of the coin, although I don't see how you are going to proof you last statement, but well.

    If membership of your country is based on shared principles only, then you cannot be free to disagree or change, because then you are no longer "one of us". If membership is based on shared national identity, then you CAN disagree, but you are still "one of us". The political division in the USA is a good example of where shared values are deemed more important than shared nationality. It is clearly toxic. No longer is your neighbour still "one of us" just because he happens to vote Trump or Biden.

    I have observed that the more and more our society talks of "Values" being what unite us rather than shared nationality, the more and more laws and limitations to speech are brought in and more and more retribution against "wrongthink" there is. That is not freedom.

    You may be under the impression that Nationalism is just Nazi Germany
    and
    Mussolini, but that position doesn't hold water. I take Nationalism
    in its
    literal sense, that is, the organisation of political and economic insitutions
    around a nation of people, FOR a nation of people. That gives the institutions
    and economic a locus, a focus, a definite people to which they must
    serve.

    You're able to think like this because you live in a nation that hasn't been plagued by bloody wars for centuries. Wars that have primarily
    been caused and fed by nationalism of one or the other colour. Even the colonialism you said above to be ended by nationalism is usually driven
    by it.

    Perhaps. And I don't deny that it can't turn pathological, and certaintly national chauvinism IS a pathology, this idea of national superiority. But what I'm saying, is not so much that ending nationalism is not desirable, but more not practical. Much in the same way that removing money isn't so much not desirable, but not practical. We certaintly can work towards better political and cultural systems, but the idea that humanity will dissolve into one people is dangerous, and it simply will not happen.


    country exists by the people, of the people, FOR the people, is the
    best system
    that we have. And that essentially is a Nationalistic position,
    because it is
    a recognition that we, the identifiable group of people, create the
    state for
    *our* posterity and wellbeing.

    Limited to people living in that particular country and given their
    share in wellbeing. Wellbeing for people in a system like that is essentially created by other people being not-so-well off. These can be outside your country, or even inside.
    A nation is not an island, and it nowadays hardly can exist without the rest of the world around it. That's part of the game change I was
    talking about earlier. The whole planet has become so "global" in the
    20th and 21st century, why should we run it with concepts mainly
    invented in the 18th/19th century? Concepts that /brought/ us wars, racism, colonialism, and slavery (to name just a few) in dimensions
    never seen before.

    Nationalism requires to divide people into more or less arbitrary
    groups, you said it to be based on "heredity". What sense does that
    make? I can look back in my ancestry, and just by going back 4
    generations I'll find people from more or less all over Europe. So what sense does it make that I am "German", a nation mainly invented about
    150 years ago by the warlords of that time on their recently conquered territory that used to consist of around 40 countries 200 years ago
    (and hundreds of these before that)?

    What is the alternative? Beaurocracies at the top, where the
    instution, not a
    people, is the focus of human enterprise? Where we exist to serve
    some
    abstract entity, rather than those entities serving us?

    Nope, but that is just /how/ a country is run, not /why/.

    Lastly, in my lifetime, the number of nation states has increased, not decreased. Countries have broken apart, some have gained
    independence. I
    haven't seen any mergers, and experiments such as the EU, are looking
    very
    shaky indeed.

    How old are you? FRG and GDR merged in 1990. North and South Vietnam merged in 1976.

    But "mergers" are usually driven by a powerful player (see my comment
    on German history above), often under the claim of "forming a nation". Europe has seen plenty of it, and the EU has been formed to overcome exactly that. Up to now it worked out pretty well on that part.
    Russia merging with Crimera, or China with with Tibet or HongKong (or maybe soon with Taiwan) are perfect examples of the road nationalism
    goes.

    China is an empire I would argue. The Han Chinese are a nation, but they have incorporated others. But the very fact that people even say Tibet, or recognise that it exist, means there is some type of Tibetan nation, even if they don't have a state.

    Jews didn't have a country until the 1940's, but they clearly existed as a people before that. Kurds don't have a state, but they clearly exist as an identifiable group. If nations didn't exist, these terms would be met with confusion, but they aren't, so these terms mean something. There clearly are Kurds, and if they had a state which encompassed them, that would be a nation-state. Now, it is possible for them to propser within a larger political apparatus, as long as that apparatus acknowledges and protects their existence.

    And EU, which acknowledged and protected the existence of the identifiable groups within it, could function. But all to often, this idea of a one world also means the dissolution of these groups.

    Regards,
    Gerrit

    ... 8:57PM up 109 days, 10:54, 7 users, load averages: 0.31, 0.44,
    0.44

    --- Msged/BSD 6.1.2
    * Origin: And the pastiche we've invented (2:240/12)

    ... Dennis Katsonis
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    * Origin: Mind's Eye BBS - mindseye.ddns.net - Australia (3:633/416)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Gerrit Kuehn on Fri May 8 08:45:12 2020
    Depends on what you call "modern". I'd say over here in Europe
    nationalism as we know it today started around the time of the French Revolution to have something to replace the king.

    I'm looking forward to the times when our royal household will be declared useless.

    "What? Work for money?"

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 4
    * Origin: If you build it he will come (2:292/854)
  • From David Drummond@3:640/305 to Dennisk on Sat May 9 14:46:32 2020
    On 7/05/2020 12:21, 3633/416 wrote:

    Do people really believe that a one world government is workable, or even desirable?

    As long as it wasn't the Yanks or ScoMo running it, it could be a positive thing. What we have now is not getting us anywhere.

    This kind of belief seems to be a peculiarly Western belief, which
    arises with more decadent thinkers.

    Could it be that Westerners have a more "global" view unlike say the tribes in PNG who haven't met anyone outside their jungle valley?

      There is no humanity pulling all together, this should be painfully obvious now, and if people still believe in
    this,

    And that is the problem with the modern world (and the older ones before it). Until we can all get along with each other for the common good of all we will continue to fight among each other, kill each other and generally fate humankind to its demise.

    they will be eaten alive by those with stronger group loyalties.

    The "world" out weighs those fractious groups.

    I would rather humanity in distinct nations, a patchwork world of seperate peoples with their own culture, their own home, with ownership over
    their own nation, than the nightmare dystopia of a technocratic one-world mega-beaurocracy.

    And still fighting each other at the drop of a hat? Obviously there is some work to do on the administrative part of the "one world" plan.

    This sooner this foolish idea that it is in our destiny to form "one world",
    the better.

    No, fuck that! I'm coming your way as soon as they let me travel to wipe out everyone in your state!

    See how dedicated I am about the "oneness"?

    --
    Regards
    David

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68
    * Origin: Bucca, QLD (3:640/305)
  • From David Drummond@3:640/305 to Ward Dossche on Sat May 9 14:50:28 2020
    On 8/05/2020 08:45, 2292/854 wrote:
    Depends on what you call "modern". I'd say over here in Europe
    nationalism as we know it today started around the time of the French
    Revolution to have something to replace the king.

    I'm looking forward to the times when our royal household will be
    declared useless.

    "What? Work for money?"

    Best do away with all of our politicians too then.

    --
    Regards
    David

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68
    * Origin: Bucca, QLD (3:640/305)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Ward Dossche on Sun May 10 06:07:24 2020
    I'm looking forward to the times when our royal household will be
    declared useless.

    The president alternative doesn't seem all that appealing nowadays. We have a rather scary example across the pond...



    ..

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    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Björn Felten on Sun May 10 08:26:24 2020
    I'm looking forward to the times when our royal household will be
    declared useless.

    The president alternative doesn't seem all that appealing nowadays. We
    have a rather scary example across the pond...

    That is an undisputable fact.

    The person in that office overthere is granted too much power and can rule by decree in a political system which is not geared to change that.

    There is a word for that.

    When one thinks about it then the parallels between that country and North Korea are striking, they also have a supreme leader who rules without being challenged.

    But a monarchy? Our royals are related to a person who ranks very high on the hitparade of greatest massmurderers ever and they now still bask in the wealth reaped from the backs of 12 million or more murdered black people ...

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 4
    * Origin: If you build it he will come (2:292/854)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Ward Dossche on Sun May 10 10:02:56 2020
    But a monarchy? Our royals are related to a person who ranks very high
    on the hitparade of greatest massmurderers ever and they now still bask
    in the wealth reaped from the backs of 12 million or more murdered black people ...

    LOL! Point taken. The Swedish royalty have been rather civil since we got one of Napoleons generals as king 200 years ago.

    And, of course monarchy is a blast from the past. But, just as democracy is the worst form of Government except for all the others, so is monarchy IMHO. If for nothing else, the royal families keep megalomaniac presidents away. That alone is worth the extra millions in tax money.



    ..

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  • From Gerrit Kuehn@2:240/12 to Ward Dossche on Sun May 10 14:31:42 2020
    Hello Ward!

    08 May 20 08:45, Ward Dossche wrote to Gerrit Kuehn:


    Depends on what you call "modern". I'd say over here in Europe
    nationalism as we know it today started around the time of the French
    Revolution to have something to replace the king.

    I'm looking forward to the times when our royal household will be declared useless.

    Your royal household is somewhat special and was established after the French Revolution (and your king was /elected/ as 3rd choice after the others didn't accept). So I guess you wanted it this way, and you certainly could decide to take a different route.


    Regards,
    Gerrit

    ... 2:31PM up 112 days, 4:28, 7 users, load averages: 0.53, 0.48, 0.42

    --- Msged/BSD 6.1.2
    * Origin: America, America the western dream is gone (2:240/12)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Björn Felten on Sun May 10 21:18:08 2020
    Hello Bj”rn,

    I'm looking forward to the times when our royal household will be
    declared useless.

    The president alternative doesn't seem all that appealing nowadays. We have
    a rather scary example across the pond...

    The vice president's closest aide.
    The president's valet.
    The president's daughter's very best friend forever.
    How many other White House staffers unknown.
    None of them wearing a mask.
    All testing positive for coronavirus.

    Meanwhile, Joe Biden showed the world he has a mask.
    And is still hiding in the basement, waiting until it
    is safe to come out and play.

    --Lee

    --
    We Make Your Wet Dreams Come True

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Ward Dossche on Sun May 10 21:18:14 2020
    Hello Ward,

    I'm looking forward to the times when our royal household will be
    declared useless.

    The president alternative doesn't seem all that appealing nowadays. BF>We
    have a rather scary example across the pond...

    That is an undisputable fact.

    Well, it is true his hair is quite a mess. Not that it is real hair.

    The person in that office overthere is granted too much power and can rule by decree in a political system which is not geared to change that.

    The presidency (in the US) is a very weak office. Had you bothered
    to read the US Constitution, you would have known that.

    There is a word for that.

    Are you calling Donald J. Trump a weakling?

    When one thinks about it then the parallels between that country and North Korea are striking, they also have a supreme leader who rules without being
    challenged.

    The US Constitution only specifies the creation of the Supreme
    Court, leaving the creation (and dissolution) of other federal courts
    to Congress' discretion.

    We all know what happened the last time the Congress challenged
    Donald J. Trump. The Senate held a trial, without calling witnesses,
    and declared Trump a saint (or something to that effect).

    But a monarchy? Our royals are related to a person who ranks very high on the hitparade of greatest massmurderers ever and they now still bask in the
    wealth reaped from the backs of 12 million or more murdered black people ...

    Up until Abraham Lincoln, almost all our presidents owned black
    people as property. These are the people who made America great.

    --Lee

    --
    If it doesn't get all over the place, it doesn't belong in your face.

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From David Drummond@3:640/305 to Lee Lofaso on Mon May 11 07:43:18 2020
    On 11/05/2020 05:18, 2203/2 wrote:

    Up until Abraham Lincoln, almost all our presidents owned black
    people as property.

    I was under the impression that he had owned (black) slaves as well.

    --
    Regards
    David

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68
    * Origin: Bucca, QLD (3:640/305)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Gerrit Kuehn on Mon May 11 08:57:48 2020
    Gerrit,

    Your royal household is somewhat special and was established after the French Revolution (and your king was /elected/ as 3rd choice after the others didn't accept). So I guess you wanted it this way, and you
    certainly could decide to take a different route.

    Long after the French revolution ... close to 40 years after.

    I hope you won't take any offence over this but the current generation of Belgians is as much to blame for turning this country into a kingdom or for the attrocities of Leopold II in the Congo as the current generations of Germans is to be blamed for world war 2 and the attrocities of the Nazis.

    I'm here and now because two people decided to have ... well ... you know what. It was none of my choice.

    There is no majority in Belgium anymore among the commoners to maintain the royal household, but there's no political majority and it would be such a legalistic upset that no-one wants to eat that hot potato.

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 4
    * Origin: If you build it he will come (2:292/854)
  • From Gerrit Kuehn@2:240/12 to Ward Dossche on Mon May 11 09:17:00 2020
    Hello Ward!

    11 May 20 08:57, Ward Dossche wrote to Gerrit Kuehn:

    So I guess you wanted it this way, and
    you certainly could decide to take a different route.

    I hope you won't take any offence over this but the current

    Not at all, I wasn't meaning to say you should do (or should have done long ago) anything in particular. I just said that this is (now) all in the hands of the Belgian people and could be changed any time, if desired.

    There is no majority in Belgium anymore among the commoners to
    maintain the royal household, but there's no political majority and
    it would be such a legalistic upset that no-one wants to eat that hot potato.

    As long as this is the case, changing it is obviously not urgently required.


    Regards,
    Gerrit

    ... 9:17AM up 112 days, 23:14, 7 users, load averages: 0.30, 0.36, 0.42

    --- Msged/BSD 6.1.2
    * Origin: America, America the western dream is gone (2:240/12)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Lee Lofaso on Mon May 11 17:59:56 2020
    The presidency (in the US) is a very weak office. Had you bothered
    to read the US Constitution, you would have known that.

    It usually surprised the friends I encountered in the US when I was working there, that I, an ignorant Swede, actually *had* not only read it, but even understood it.

    I usually started with asking them if they them selves knew what the first ten amendments are called. You'd be surprised to know how few knew the correct answer.

    And, of course, after all those TV-shows from the WH we all know that the POTUS hasn't even read your constitution. There's even audio recordings where he admits that it's written in a language that he doesn't understand.

    Don't you have any tests at all that a POTUS candidate has to pass? At least in par with the test you have to take to become a US citizen.

    But I must admit I miss the daily WH press "conferences" now that Joe Orange obviously has been grounded(?) when not even the most fanatical and corrupt GOP:ers can defend his latest stupidities and blatant lies.

    Or has he finally understood that the virus can invade even the WH unless you carefully follow the recommendations from the experts. Not a good idea to fire all of the experts who questioned your genius, in order to create a corps of yeah-sayers was it...?


    ..

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  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to David Drummond on Mon May 11 18:11:10 2020
    I was under the impression that he had owned (black) slaves as well.

    Where did you get that impression? I was under the impression that even his parents were strongly against slavery.


    ..

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  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to David Drummond on Mon May 11 22:33:22 2020
    Hello David,

    Up until Abraham Lincoln, almost all our presidents owned black
    people as property.

    I was under the impression that he had owned (black) slaves as well.

    Honest "Babe" Lincoln was not the kind of person everybody thinks.
    Even though she was, by all accounts, the finest wrestler in all the
    land, having lost only one match in her entire career.

    Lincoln was an abolitionist for twenty years before becoming
    president. Her twin brother died in childbirth, and she paid him
    homage by duping the entire world into believing she was a man.
    As well as managing to legally marry another woman, and live as
    a couple in the White House. Even got folks to falsely believe
    she ended slavery in the US. Anyway, all that is beside the point,
    as only men could own slaves. Which is why she was so jealous of
    John Wilkes Booth, who owned an entire stable, and when she got
    a look at them at Ford's theater we all know what happened next.

    --Lee

    --
    More Doctors Smoke Camels than Any Other Cigarette

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From David Drummond@3:640/305 to Bj”rn Felten on Tue May 12 07:36:44 2020
    On 12/05/2020 02:11, 2203/2 wrote:
     DD>> I was under the impression that he had owned (black) slaves as well.

       Where did you get that impression?

    I don't know. That is the thing with impressions, the buggers sneak up on you.

    I was under the impression that even his parents were strongly against slavery.

    I do not closely follow all of the socio-political opinions of my parents. Would Abe?

    https://www.history.com/news/how-many-u-s-presidents-owned-slaves

    Perhaps it is Washington that I was thinking of...

    --
    Regards
    David

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68
    * Origin: Bucca, QLD (3:640/305)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Lee Lofaso on Tue May 12 00:06:24 2020
    Honest "Babe" Lincoln was not the kind of person everybody thinks.

    The rest of this conspiracy shit of yours may very well be believed by a Trumpster group, but out here we are a wee bit more educated.




    ..

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  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to David Drummond on Tue May 12 00:54:30 2020
    Perhaps it is Washington that I was thinking of...

    That may very well be it. By then (almost a century earlier) it was mostly European misfits that managed to create the not so nice society of that time.


    ..

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  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to David Drummond on Tue May 12 19:01:50 2020
    Hello David,

    Up until Abraham Lincoln, almost all our presidents owned black
    people as property.

    I was under the impression that he had owned (black) slaves as well.

    Abraham Lincoln (not the fictional character) was an abolitionist
    for twenty years prior to becoming president. Contrary to popular
    opinion, he did not free the slaves during his tenure. It was only
    after his death, with passage and ratification of the 13th Amendment
    that slavery and involuntary servitude came to an end. Even then,
    slavery did continue to exist in other forms, such as in prisons (as
    allowed in the 13th Amendment), and indentured servants (until the
    time of FDR, who banned the practice).

    I never looked into what Lincoln's parents views were, except to
    note that his twin brother died in childbirth. What influenced his
    views on slavery may have been due to his parents beliefs, perhaps
    not. What was most important to him during his tenure as president
    was not the issue of slavery, but rather of keeping the country
    together.

    --Lee

    --
    Probably the best beer in the world

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Bj÷rn Felten on Tue May 12 19:01:56 2020
    Hello Bj”rn,

    Perhaps it is Washington that I was thinking of...

    That may very well be it.

    George Washington had the teeth of his slaves for dentures.
    Probably also some other teeth from other sources. But being
    a wealthy man, he could afford a natural set ...

    By then (almost a century earlier) it was mostly European misfits that managed to create the not so nice society of that time.

    Imposing our own standards of today on those of the past is not fair.
    Imagine what others a hundred years from now will think of us.

    --Lee

    --
    NO MASKS REQUIRED. THIS IS A NO-FEAR ZONE.

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Björn Felten on Tue May 12 19:02:02 2020
    Hello Bj”rn,

    I was under the impression that he had owned (black) slaves DD>as well.

    Where did you get that impression? I was under the impression that even his
    parents were strongly against slavery.

    Fake news! Fake news!

    The entity known as Abraham Lincoln was *not* born in a log cabin!

    And also never ended slavery!

    In fact, the USA still practices slavery today.
    In our prisons, having prisoners work for less than peanuts.
    One governor of Louisiana had the brilliant idea to get prisoners
    to make the gurneys used for executing other prisoners. But that
    started a riot, and he had to shelve that idea. Then the state
    ran out of drugs to use to execute the prisoners. So now we have
    no beds or drugs to kill our prisoners with.

    Been well over ten years since the last time a prisoner was
    executed. And that one had volunteered to die, by rejecting all
    his appeals.

    Time to bring Gertrude (the state's electric chair) out of retirement
    and put her to use.

    --Lee

    --
    Travel should take you places

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Björn Felten on Tue May 12 19:02:22 2020
    Hello Bj”rn,

    Honest "Babe" Lincoln was not the kind of person everybody thinks.

    The rest of this conspiracy shit of yours may very well be believed by a Trumpster group, but out here we are a wee bit more educated.

    I first read about it in a supermarket tabloid.
    In the days before the internet.
    So it must be true.

    --Lee

    --
    Work sets you free.

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)