The great Ambrose Bierce quotes the following in his definition of
conscience:

"Woes that defy the world's religions --
The Spirit's brooding ills --
We scatter, like a flock of pigeons,
With pills."

I don't understand the comparison: how does one employ pills in
scattering a flock of pigeons? Or is a handfull of small pebbles?

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* Origin: nntps://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)

Anton Shepelev - All:

Or is a handfull of small pebbles?

In anticipation of corrections from Alexander:

Or is it a handful of small pebbles?

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* Origin: nntps://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)

I mused:

Or is it a handful of small pebbles?

Or shot, if the flock is airborne?

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* Origin: nntps://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)

Hi, Anton Shepelev!
I read your message from 10.04.2020 12:37

The great Ambrose Bierce quotes the following in his definition
of conscience:
"Woes that defy the world's religions --
The Spirit's brooding ills --
We scatter, like a flock of pigeons,
With pills."
I don't understand the comparison: how does one employ pills in
scattering a flock of pigeons? Or is a handfull of small
pebbles?

Pills also are balls for golf, billiards. You can scare away a flock of
pigeons with it.

Bye, Anton!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.english_tutor 2020
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0
* Origin: Dewy News (2:5075/128.130)

Hi, Anton! Recently you wrote in a message to All:

The great Ambrose Bierce quotes the following in
his definition of conscience:

"Woes that defy the world's religions --
The Spirit's brooding ills --
We scatter, like a flock of pigeons,
With pills."

I don't understand the comparison: how does one
employ pills in scattering a flock of pigeons?
Or is a handfull of small pebbles?

I'm reminded here of Jacqueline Susann's novel VALLEY OF THE DOLLS,
where women in particular were given pills which may have made them feel better
temporarily but which did not address the underlying problem(s). Recently I've
heard that some folks have run afoul of the laws re practising medicine without
a licence in advertisements for vitamin & mineral supplements, claiming they'll
prevent or even cure COVID-19. While I am not a medical professional (standard
disclaimer) I think I know enough about nutrition to realize that while some of
these things may help support the immune system the results can't be guaranteed ... and there is a lot of evidence suggesting that a person's spiritual beliefs
&/or relationships with other people may help too. When I read his biography I
see why this author may have found neither of the latter met his needs.... :-Q

I imagine human nature hasn't changed much since then, at any rate.
Folks often resort to pills when their state of health or whatever is in doubt,
and at present many of us are being advised... if not required... to stay home.
When pigeons find something to eat on a public sidewalk they tend to congregate
there until something startles them, then they "scatter". Human beings tend to
congregate in pubs, restaurants, and coffee shops for similar reasons. Just as
pigeons "scatter" when there is a perceived threat, we've done much the same in
our own way. Looking at Bierce's description, however, I read "like a flock of
pigeons" as a parenthetical expression. IMHO the author is commenting on how &
why people "scatter"... and what may or may not frighten pigeons is irrelevant.

Usage note: The verb "scatter" may be transitive... as you seem to
be interpreting it here... or intransitive. In the intransitive sense it means
various members of a crowd go their separate ways. The verb "disperse" is used
in a similar manner... but "scatter" implies a feeling of urgency as well. :-)




--- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)

Ardith Hinton - Anton Shepelev:

The great Ambrose Bierce quotes the following in
his definition of conscience:

"Woes that defy the world's religions --
The Spirit's brooding ills --
We scatter, like a flock of pigeons,
With pills."

I don't understand the comparison: how does one
employ pills in scattering a flock of pigeons?
Or is a handfull of small pebbles?

I'm reminded here of Jacqueline Susann's novel VALLEY
OF THE DOLLS, where women in particular were given pills which
may have made them feel better temporarily but which did not
address the underlying problem(s).

[A learner's question:]
I never became friendly with this consturction: may have made. Does
it mean "it is possible that they made"? If so, is it correct to
use the present tense to describe events in a novel introduced in
the past tense (were given)?

Recently I've heard that some folks have run afoul of the laws
re practising medicine without a licence in advertisements for
vitamin & mineral supplements, claiming they'll prevent or even
cure COVID-19.

Yeah, perfidious peddlers of lucrative lies.

While I am not a medical professional (standard disclaimer) I
think I know enough about nutrition to realize that while some of
these things may help support the immune system the results can't
be guaranteed .. and there is a lot of evidence suggesting that a
person's spiritual beliefs &/or relationships with other people
may help too.

Scientific evidence? I wonder how and what they found out.

When I read his biography I see why this author
may have found neither of the latter met his needs.... :-Q

Bierice? Because he was so bitter?

I imagine human nature hasn't changed much since
then, at any rate. Folks often resort to pills when their state
of health or whatever is in doubt,

And all the readier because taking pills takes only a negligible
effort.

and at present many of us are being advised... if not required...
to stay home. When pigeons find something to eat on a public
sidewalk they tend to congregate there until something startles
them, then they "scatter". Human beings tend to congregate in
pubs, restaurants, and coffee shops for similar reasons.

Well said!

Just as pigeons "scatter" when there is a perceived threat,
we've done much the same in our own way. Looking at Bierce's
description, however, I read "like a flock of pigeons" as a
parenthetical expression.

Well, I do understand it is a parenthetical expression, which can
be removed without structural damage.

IMHO the author is commenting on how & why people "scatter"...
and what may or may not frighten pigeons is irrelevant.

I see what you mean. We scatter like a flock of pigeons when it is
startled. But how does your reading treat the complement "with
pills"? If "scatter" is intransitive, there is nothing to scatter
with pills, is it? And what are "woes" and "ills" if not the objects
of "scatter"?

---
* Origin: nntps://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)

Hi, Anton! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

I'm reminded here of Jacqueline Susann's novel VALLEY
OF THE DOLLS, where women in particular were given pills
which may have made them feel better temporarily but
which did not address the underlying problem(s).

[A learner's question:]
I never became friendly with this consturction: may have
made. Does it mean "it is possible that they made"? If so,
is it correct to use the present tense to describe events
in a novel introduced in the past tense (were given)?

It is possible [that] they made the users feel better temporarily...
yes. Either way the events of the story are in the past tense, and whatever we
write in the preamble has far more to do with our own reasoning processes. One
of the things which may be confusing you here is an idiomatic use of "it". ;-)

Recently I've heard that some folks have run afoul of the
laws re practising medicine without a licence in advertisements
for vitamin & mineral supplements, claiming they'll prevent
or even cure COVID-19.

Yeah, perfidious peddlers of lucrative lies.

Nice alliteration... [chuckle].

the results can't be guaranteed... and there is a lot of
evidence suggesting that a person's spiritual beliefs &/or
relationships with other people may help too.

Scientific evidence? I wonder how and what they found out.

While I don't know of any formal scientific studies on the topic I'd
highly recommend Bernie Siegel's book LOVE, MEDICINE & MIRACLES. The author is
an oncologist who noticed that some of his patients appeared to be doing better
than expected, and made it his business to figure out why. Over the years I've
noticed similar comments from various other front line workers as well.... :-)

When I read his biography I see why this author may have
found neither of the latter met his needs.... :-Q

Bierice? Because he was so bitter?

Apparently he had some doubts about religion... he divorced his wife ... then she & two of his children predeceased him, one by suicide. Perhaps he
started out with a healthy skepticism which turned to bitterness later.... :-/




--- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)

Hi again, Anton! This is a continuation of my previous message to you:

Folks often resort to pills when their state of health
or whatever is in doubt,

And all the readier because taking pills takes only a
negligible effort.

Yup.... :-)

When pigeons find something to eat on a public sidewalk
they tend to congregate there until something startles
them, then they "scatter". Human beings tend to congregate
in pubs, restaurants, and coffee shops for similar reasons.

Well said!

Thankyou.... :-)

We scatter like a flock of pigeons when it is startled. But
how does your reading treat the complement "with pills"?

More examples:

The dog retreated with its tail between its hind legs.
The butler absconded with the family silver.
The train departed for Montreal with Harriet on board.
John left without saying goodbye.


I would describe "with [...]" as an adverbial phrase, however.... :-)

If "scatter" is intransitive, there is nothing to scatter
with pills, is it?

|is there?


That's my take on it.... :-)

And what are "woes" and "ills" if not the objects of
"scatter"?

I interpret these "woes" and "ills"... which may be psychological or
physical or both... as what often motivates human beings to use pills. The way
Bierce alludes to the former, however, implies a bit of poetic licence.... :-)




--- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)

Ardith Hinton to Anton Shepelev:

I'm reminded here of Jacqueline Susann's novel VALLEY
OF THE DOLLS, where women in particular were given pills
which may have made them feel better temporarily but
which did not address the underlying problem(s).

[A learner's question:]
I never became friendly with this consturction: may have
made. Does it mean "it is possible that they made"? If so,
is it correct to use the present tense to describe events
in a novel introduced in the past tense (were given)?

It is possible [that] they made the users feel better temporarily... yes. Either way the events of the story are in
the past tense, and whatever we write in the preamble has far
more to do with our own reasoning processes.

Thanks, I mean what you see (or the other way round).

One of the things which may be confusing you here is an idiomatic
use of "it". ;-)

In "it is possible that..."? I have no problems with this dummy `it'
that I wot of... If, however, you refer to the error I made in a
tag quesion that you so kindly corrected in another post, that was
just a mental misstep (here is another alliteration for you).

While I don't know of any formal scientific studies on
the topic I'd highly recommend Bernie Siegel's book LOVE,
MEDICINE & MIRACLES. The author is an oncologist who noticed
that some of his patients appeared to be doing better than
expected, and made it his business to figure out why. Over the
years I've noticed similar comments from various other front line
workers as well.... :-)

That is certainly interesting. Our minds are have stronger effect
on our bodies than is usually thought, what with stigmae and the
yogi. As a nurse told me during a regular medical inspection at the
university, all illnesses are because of the nerves, and only one
because of love :-)

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* Origin: nntps://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)

+------------------------------------------+
| "Woes that defy the world's religions -- |
| The Spirit's brooding ills -- |
| We scatter, like a flock of pigeons, |
| With pills." |
+------------------------------------------+

We scatter like a flock of pigeons when it is startled. But
how does your reading treat the complement "with pills"?

More examples:

The dog retreated with its tail between its hind
legs. The butler absconded with the family silver.
The train departed for Montreal with Harriet on
board. John left without saying goodbye.

I have no objections to your examples, but somehow cannot
interpret Bierce's verse in this manner. Do we scatter like a
flock of pigeons, with pills stuffed into our pockets by way of
a reassuring ballast :-?

I would describe "with [...]" as an adverbial phrase,
however.... :-)

In that sense, yes. It modifes the verb: retreat, abscond, depart,
but I can't help but consider "with pills" in an instrumental sense.
I trow I shall take a pause, or maybe ask my question otherwhere
and compare the answers :-P

And what are "woes" and "ills" if not the objects of
"scatter"?

I interpret these "woes" and "ills"... which may be
psychological or physical or both... as what often motivates
human beings to use pills. The way Bierce alludes to the former,
however, implies a bit of poetic licence.... :-)

So do I, but what is their grammatical role in the sentence. We
learners are possessed by the grammatical devils, aren't we? Oh
yes, we suretainly are... Grammar comes with a second language.

---
* Origin: nntps://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)

Hi, Anton!

+------------------------------------------+
|In Russia now holidays:May 1 - peace(done)|
|and May 2 - labor (do the shifted of the |
|shifted) and this is in self-isolation^_^ |
| |
+------------------------------------------+

skip

In that sense, yes. It modifes the verb: retreat, abscond, depart,
but I can't help but consider "with pills" in an instrumental sense.
I trow I shall take a pause, or maybe ask my question otherwhere
and compare the answers :-P

Smile from Finland!

‘ 㢠¦¥­¨¥¬ - Denis
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* Origin: ;) (2:5064/54.1315)