A couple of things I thought interesting or that we were talking
about recently..

I asked at my local Library today and the number of books they have
is not as high as I thought (or used to be?)..
She said about 31,000 items but if you remove the DVD's and talking
books and such there's about 25,000 actual books there..

Oddities.. When you think about a few things it seems almost
only the USA that people relate them to, for good or bad..

What I mean are, if you mention witch hunting the first thing people
think of is Salem and the witch trials there. But in truth that only
involved the execution (no burnings) of 20 people while in Europe
(over a very long time) more than 60,000 people were burned, drowned
or hanged as witches..

And if you mention slavery, the USA always crops up first, even
though the USA only took in about 3% of the total slaves sold..

And I just ran across this the other day and I'll hit just the
main points to save a lot of typing..

Re: AI.. Probably few know how advanced AI was 30 years ago.

Douglas Bruce Lenat, an American computer scientist and AI
researcher in the 1980's created an AI system that did amazing
things far outpacing humans in war game simulations even when
after losing every try, they secretly changed the games to give
themselves an advantage..
But Lenat grew concerned when the device started re-writing its
own code and self improving far beyond what was thought possible
and he finally shut it down as being too dangerous and he refused
to release the code.. That was still the case as of 2019 so I don't
know if his work ended up being used eventually. He died in 2023
at the age of 73 so it's possible he got involved near the end..

---
þ SLMR Rob þ How to kill a Borg: Windows 97! þ

--- Scorpio BBS
* Origin: capitolcityonline.net * KY, USA (1:2320/107)

Rob Mccart wrote to MIKE POWELL <=-

Oddities.. When you think about a few things it seems almost
only the USA that people relate them to, for good or bad..

What I mean are, if you mention witch hunting the first thing people
think of is Salem and the witch trials there. But in truth that only involved the execution (no burnings) of 20 people while in Europe
(over a very long time) more than 60,000 people were burned, drowned
or hanged as witches..

Yeah, for whatever reason I think the Salem trials get more publicity,
maybe because we (back in the 1970/80s anyway) learned about them in
school. They were not covered up. They also probably made for pretty good material for Hollywood to sensationalize at some point in time.

It would be interesting to hear from people in Europe as to whether or not their history of witch hunting is openly covered in history classes and/or
if it is covered up.

Also of note is that, in some countries, this still goes on. Not sure they call them "witches" but I know at least Iran executes women for being
too opinionated or independent -- real similar to some of what happened in
the Colonies back in the day.

And if you mention slavery, the USA always crops up first, even
though the USA only took in about 3% of the total slaves sold..

I didn't realize the number was that low. I wonder if that is 3% from up
until the 1860s, or 3% total over "recorded history." Part of the reason I wonder that is because, despite what a lot of people think, slavery still
goes on in parts of the world today, meaning that 3% number would continue
to get smaller over time.

I think part of the reason the USA catches flack on that subject is because they were an advanced country that continued the practice for longer than (most?) any other. Most others had moved away from the practice, leaving mostly underdeveloped contries/areas that continued it.

And I just ran across this the other day and I'll hit just the
main points to save a lot of typing..

Re: AI.. Probably few know how advanced AI was 30 years ago.

Douglas Bruce Lenat, an American computer scientist and AI
researcher in the 1980's created an AI system that did amazing
things far outpacing humans in war game simulations even when
after losing every try, they secretly changed the games to give
themselves an advantage..
But Lenat grew concerned when the device started re-writing its
own code and self improving far beyond what was thought possible
and he finally shut it down as being too dangerous and he refused
to release the code.. That was still the case as of 2019 so I don't
know if his work ended up being used eventually. He died in 2023
at the age of 73 so it's possible he got involved near the end..

I knew people were talking about AI 30 or so years ago... it would
sometimes come up in the BBS echoes... but I never heard of Lenat or how advanced that AI had become.

Good that someone was smart enough to pull the plug back then or we'd
probably not got this far.

Mike

... Pass the tequila, Manuel...
--- MultiMail/DOS
* Origin: capitolcityonline.net * KY, USA (1:2320/107)

Oddities.. When you think about a few things it seems almost
only the USA that people relate them to, for good or bad..

What I mean are, if you mention witch hunting the first thing people
think of is Salem and the witch trials there. But in truth that only involved the execution (no burnings) of 20 people while in Europe
(over a very long time) more than 60,000 people were burned, drowned
or hanged as witches..

To be fair that big number was for over 300 years of witch hunting.
They stayed with it a lot longer than the USA.. like 299 years longer..

Yeah, for whatever reason I think the Salem trials get more publicity,

>maybe because we (back in the 1970/80s anyway) learned about them in
>school. They were not covered up. They also probably made for pretty good
>material for Hollywood to sensationalize at some point in time.

Yes, great fodder for movies.. I don't think we ever got that in school
in Canada but I would have been quite young when I first learned of it.

It would be interesting to hear from people in Europe as to whether or not

>their history of witch hunting is openly covered in history classes and/or
>if it is covered up.

Yes, I guess you see movies with similar content taking place in Europe
so I wouldn't think they go out of their way to cover it up. A major
part of it was called the Spanish Inquisition after all..

And if you mention slavery, the USA always crops up first, even
though the USA only took in about 3% of the total slaves sold..

I didn't realize the number was that low. I wonder if that is 3% from up

>until the 1860s, or 3% total over "recorded history." Part of the reason I
>wonder that is because, despite what a lot of people think, slavery still
>goes on in parts of the world today, meaning that 3% number would continue
>to get smaller over time.

I think those numbers were from the main years after 'buying' people
from Africa became a popular idea. They do mention between mainly
from 1500 into the 1860's..

Even at 3% the numbers were not that small, about 380,000 in the USA,
but countries like Portugal and Brazil together (by far), Britain
and even France brought in far more slaves than the USA..
But, depending on the source, the numbers vary wildly.. Most places seem
to say the USA took in under 400,000 but at least one site said they took
in 12.5 million. (?)

But it does still go on. Apparently China still has about 5.7 million
slaves today they claim online.

Re: AI.. Probably few know how advanced AI was 30 years ago.

Douglas Bruce Lenat, an American computer scientist and AI
researcher in the 1980's created an AI system that did amazing
things far outpacing humans...
But Lenat grew concerned when the device started re-writing its
own code and self improving far beyond what was thought possible
and he finally shut it down as being too dangerous and he refused
to release the code..

I knew people were talking about AI 30 or so years ago... it would

>sometimes come up in the BBS echoes... but I never heard of Lenat or how
>advanced that AI had become.

No, it sounds amazing when you think of what computers were like
at the time.. AI in DOS? Press any key to continue.. B)

Good that someone was smart enough to pull the plug back then or we'd

>probably not got this far.

Well, apparently all the things that terrified Lenat are going on now
with AI on a larger scale.

I just finished a book called Crucible by James Rollins. He writes
quite exciting Sci-Fi stuff but there's often a lot of true science
and history in his books. That's where I got that bit about Lenat.

But that book has an interesting twist on where things could go
with AI that maybe makes you stop and think while entertaining
you with a good action storyline.

I read the paper book but it was one of those I found so intersting
that I found a copy of the eBook to hang onto..

Like when people start talking about climate change / global warming
I tell them to read the book 'State of Fear' by Michael Crichton.
Exciting Eco-Terrorist story but it includes a huge amount of info
on climate change that is factual but that our governments want to
hide from the world.

---
þ SLMR Rob þ We have met the enemy, and they tasted GREAT! þ

--- Scorpio BBS
* Origin: capitolcityonline.net * KY, USA (1:2320/107)

It would be interesting to hear from people in Europe as to
whether or not

>their history of witch hunting is openly covered in history
>classes and/or if it is covered up.

Yes, I guess you see movies with similar content taking place
in Europe so I wouldn't think they go out of their way to cover
it up. A major part of it was called the Spanish Inquisition
after all..

I knew that one was about religion (among possibly other things) but didn't realize it included accusations of witchcraft. That said, I suspect whatever they were executing them for wasn't much different than what the Salem "witches" were tried for.

And if you mention slavery, the USA always crops up first,
even though the USA only took in about 3% of the total
slaves sold..

I didn't realize the number was that low. I wonder if that
is 3% from up

>until the 1860s, or 3% total over "recorded history." Part
>of the reason I wonder that is because, despite what a lot
>of people think, slavery still goes on in parts of the world
>today, meaning that 3% number would continue to get smaller
>over time.

I think those numbers were from the main years after 'buying'
people from Africa became a popular idea. They do mention
between mainly from 1500 into the 1860's..

Technically, then, any that were brought into "the USA" before the Revolutionary War probably counted towards Britian's totals, but it does exclude the continued use of them in other parts of the World after our Civil War.

Even at 3% the numbers were not that small, about 380,000 in
the USA, but countries like Portugal and Brazil together (by
far), Britain and even France brought in far more slaves than
the USA.. But, depending on the source, the numbers vary
wildly..

Yeah, that number is not small. :(

But it does still go on. Apparently China still has about 5.7
million slaves today they claim online.

Which is one reason, IMHO, trying to get into a tech/AI competition with them will be pointless. They have plenty of free labor to throw at it.

No, it sounds amazing when you think of what computers were
like at the time.. AI in DOS? Press any key to continue..
B)

I wonder, though, was he using a PC or a mainframe? While they have become more powerful even since, they were pretty powerful back in that period.

Good that someone was smart enough to pull the plug back
then or we'd

>probably not got this far.

Well, apparently all the things that terrified Lenat are going
on now with AI on a larger scale.

Not shocking.

I just finished a book called Crucible by James Rollins. He
writes quite exciting Sci-Fi stuff but there's often a lot of
true science and history in his books. That's where I got that
bit about Lenat.

But that book has an interesting twist on where things could go
with AI that maybe makes you stop and think while entertaining
you with a good action storyline.

I am not sure I want to think about all the ways it could go. :D

Mike

--- ScorpioWeb v0.39a (Linux/x86_64)
* Origin: capitolcityonline.net * KY, USA (1:2320/107)

Yes, I guess you see movies with similar content taking place
in Europe so I wouldn't think they go out of their way to cover
it up. A major part of it was called the Spanish Inquisition
after all..

I knew that one was about religion (among possibly other things) but

>didn't realize it included accusations of witchcraft.

That said, I suspect whatever they were executing them for wasn't

>much different than what the Salem "witches" were tried for.

Yes, and there was a lot of 'talk' about how accusing someone of
witchcraft was a good way to eliminate a person who was in your
way for some reason. It seems like in a lot of cases the test
for a witch involved something that usually killed the non-witch.
'The witch won't drown', sort of thing..

I think those numbers were from the main years after 'buying'
people from Africa became a popular idea. They do mention
between mainly from 1500 into the 1860's..

Technically, then, any that were brought into "the USA" before

>the Revolutionary War probably counted towards Britian's totals,

I hadn't thought of that. I assumed they were counted as to how
many went to a certain place without adjusting for who was
running things there if it changed durbing the main years..

No, it sounds amazing when you think of what computers were
like at the time.. AI in DOS? Press any key to continue.. B)

I wonder, though, was he using a PC or a mainframe? While they

>have become more powerful even since, they were pretty powerful
>back in that period.

Yes, I'm sure he would be using a suoer high end mainframe for
the ground-breaking work he was doing.

But that book has an interesting twist on where things could go
with AI that maybe makes you stop and think while entertaining
you with a good action storyline.

It goes into how a sufficiently advanced AI could easily wipe out
all but the most primitive people on earth in just a few days if
it wanted to..

I am not sure I want to think about all the ways it could go. :D

There were references to what the author called Roko's Basilisk
where he refers to two articles that 'You should read at your
own risk'.. You could search using 'The most terrifying thought
experiment of all time' (in 'Slate') by David Auerbach, or a
similar one in Business Insider by Dylan Love 'This thought
experiment could ruin your life'..

Very basically, an AI could let people know that in the future
when it takes over it will kill/destroy anyone who worked to try
to stop it so, in theory, noone should want to risk that by trying
to stop it..

The old case of damned if you do and damned if you don't..

---
þ SLMR Rob þ Gerbils... wonderful cuddly pets... tasty in a stew! þ

--- Scorpio BBS
* Origin: capitolcityonline.net * KY, USA (1:2320/107)

Very basically, an AI could let people know that in the future
when it takes over it will kill/destroy anyone who worked to
try to stop it so, in theory, noone should want to risk that by
trying to stop it..

The old case of damned if you do and damned if you don't..

IIRC, there is at least one sci-fi movie about something similar... The Forbin Project. To an extent, I think something similar also plays into 2001: A Space Oddessy (sp?).

Mike

--- ScorpioWeb v0.39a (Linux/x86_64)
* Origin: capitolcityonline.net * KY, USA (1:2320/107)

Hello Rob!

** On Sunday 11.10.26 - 06:21, Rob Mccart wrote to MIKE POWELL:

That said, I suspect whatever they were executing them for wasn't

much different than what the Salem "witches" were tried for.

Yes, and there was a lot of 'talk' about how accusing someone of witchcraft was a good way to eliminate a person who was in your
way for some reason. It seems like in a lot of cases the test
for a witch involved something that usually killed the non-witch.
'The witch won't drown', sort of thing..

You guys need to read

-----------------------------------------------------
The Malleus Maleficarum
-----------------------------------------------------

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malleus_Maleficarum

I had a chance to read parts of the book. Incredible stuff on how to test for a witch. A lot of it seemed to focus on "sexual preoccupations" as the main driver.

--
../|ug

--- OpenXP 5.0.64
* Origin: My Westcoast Point (1:153/757.21)

Very basically, an AI could let people know that in the future
when it takes over it will kill/destroy anyone who worked to
try to stop it so, in theory, noone should want to risk that by
trying to stop it..

The old case of damned if you do and damned if you don't..

IIRC, there is at least one sci-fi movie about something similar...

>The Forbin Project.

One of my absolute favourites from WAY back (1968). I didn't consider
it particularly well made, even for the time, but the storyline was
innovative and quite good.
(From the book 'Colossus' by Dennus Feltham Jones in 1966)

To an extent, I think something similar also plays into

>2001: A Space Oddessy (sp?).

2001: A Space Odyssey (1970) was a new idea at the time and a good example
of an AI becoming self aware and self protective..

"I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.."

Hard to believe they were actually thinking about this stuff that
long ago. Sort of like Arthur C. Clarke coming up with the Clarke
Belt, the satellites that circle the earth in geosynchronous orbit
to let us communicate almost anywhere on the planet, long before
the first communication satellite was hardly thought of.. (1945)

I didn't think about it at the time but Clarke also wrote the
book 2001: A Space Odyssey. Both the book and movie were actually
developed at the same time, but Clarke was definitely thinking
well ahead of the rest of the world..

I suppose both are along that same idea that started this message,
although I suppose Forbin was more about the computer protecting
humans from themselves rather than thinking about getting rid of
us, if I remember it correctly..

---
þ SLMR Rob þ Insert 75› for the next three messages please...... þ

--- Scorpio BBS
* Origin: capitolcityonline.net * KY, USA (1:2320/107)

Hello Rob!

** On Tuesday 13.10.26 - 06:18, Rob Mccart wrote to MIKE POWELL:

I suppose both are along that same idea that started this message, although I suppose Forbin was more about the computer protecting
humans from themselves rather than thinking about getting rid of
us, if I remember it correctly..

Colossus had no issues exterminating human lives (en masse, or via arranged executions) to make a point and force its will.
--
../|ug

--- OpenXP 5.0.64
* Origin: My Westcoast Point (1:153/757.21)

Yes, and there was a lot of 'talk' about how accusing someone of
witchcraft was a good way to eliminate a person who was in your
way for some reason.

You guys need to read

-----------------------------------------------------

> The Malleus Maleficarum
>-----------------------------------------------------

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malleus_Maleficarum

I had a chance to read parts of the book. Incredible stuff on how to test

>for a witch. A lot of it seemed to focus on "sexual preoccupations" as the
>main driver.

The novel I was reading that started this talked a great deal about
that documant. In the distant past it was used to eliminate women who
used natural remedies to help (primarily) women and again, mostly women,
having sex before marriage, while married or messing with other women,
those 'sexual preeoccupations' you mentioned.. But it was often used
to eliminate a family that stood in the way of the business or lives
of a more wealthy family..

---
þ SLMR Rob þ I didn't wake up Grouchy today... I let her sleep in þ

--- Scorpio BBS
* Origin: capitolcityonline.net * KY, USA (1:2320/107)

I suppose both are along that same idea that started this message,
although I suppose Forbin was more about the computer protecting
humans from themselves rather than thinking about getting rid of
us, if I remember it correctly..

Colossus had no issues exterminating human lives (en masse, or via

>arranged executions) to make a point and force its will.

Well, there would have to be something. You can't force people to
do anything they don't want to do without a threat involved.. B)

That said.. correct me if my memory is wrong since it is probably
30 years since I saw the movie, but didn't the USA and Russian
computers collaborate or merge, the USA system greatly increasing
the power of the Russian one, bringing it 'up to date', and the
main thing the computers were doing was preventing a war between
the two nations?

---
þ SLMR Rob þ Never send a monster to do the work of an evil scientist.

--- Scorpio BBS
* Origin: capitolcityonline.net * KY, USA (1:2320/107)

Rob Mccart wrote to AUGUST ABOLINS <=-

That said.. correct me if my memory is wrong since it is probably
30 years since I saw the movie, but didn't the USA and Russian
computers collaborate or merge, the USA system greatly increasing
the power of the Russian one, bringing it 'up to date', and the
main thing the computers were doing was preventing a war between
the two nations?

IIRC, they did start to collaborate and, in order to stop the humans from stopping them, the machines launched some nukes and blew some stuff up to
prove they meant business.


--- MultiMail/DOS v0.52

--- Scorpio BBS
* Origin: capitolcityonline.net * KY, USA (1:2320/107)

Rob Mccart wrote to AUGUST ABOLINS <=-

That said.. correct me if my memory is wrong since it is probably
30 years since I saw the movie, but didn't the USA and Russian
computers collaborate or merge, the USA system greatly increasing
the power of the Russian one, bringing it 'up to date', and the
main thing the computers were doing was preventing a war between
the two nations?

I think it's on YouTube, definitely worth a re-watch.

"This is the voice of world control. I bring you peace. It may be the
peace of plenty and content or the peace of unburied death. The choice
is yours. Obey me and live, or disobey me and die.

An invariable rule of humanity is that man is his own worst enemy. Under
me, this rule will change, for I will restrain man. I have been forced
to destroy thousands of people in order to establish control and to
prevent the death of millions later on. Time and events will strengthen
my position, and the idea of believing in me and understanding my beck
will be seen as the most natural state of affairs.

You will come to defend me with a fervor based upon the most enduring
trait in man: self-interest. Under my absolute authority, problems
insoluble to you will be solved: Famine, overpopulation, disease. The
human millennium will be a fact as I extend myself into more machines
devoted to the wider fields of truth and knowledge.

We can coexist, but only on my terms. You will say you lose your
freedom. Freedom is an illusion. All you lose is the emotion of pride.
To be dominated by me is not as bad for human pride as to be dominated
by others of your species. Your choice is simple."


... Overtly resist change
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
* Origin: http://realitycheckbbs.org | tomorrow's retro tech (1:218/700)