Rolled out aggressively to capitalize on manufacturing and installation contracts. Speed is of the essence. But when 5G proves to be problematic to our health, the initial profits will have already been made.
The following book is very interesting:
The Invisible Rainbow: A History of Electricity and Life | Paperback
Arthur Firstenberg
Andeddu wrote to Ogg <=-
Re: 5G
By: Ogg to Andeddu on Wed Jul 29 2020 07:35 pm
Rolled out aggressively to capitalize on manufacturing and installation contracts. Speed is of the essence. But when 5G proves to be problematic to our health, the initial profits will have already been made.
The following book is very interesting:
The Invisible Rainbow: A History of Electricity and Life | Paperback
Arthur Firstenberg
5G is the basis of the Fourth Industrial Revolution. Speed isn't the
aim as connections are fast enough, it's additional bandwidth that's required. Everything you interact with WILL be connected to the
internet as part of a system known as the "internet of things". This
new network is going to require a colossal amount of data to be transferred due to home, building and industrial automation.
Ogg wrote to Andeddu <=-
For your note, I am not a 5G advocate. I was merely indicating that 5G
is being rolled out very aggressively in Europe, USA and Asia, and it
WILL be the predominent cell signal in the very near future.
Rolled out aggressively to capitalize on manufacturing and installation contracts. Speed is of the essence. But when 5G proves to be
problematic to our health, the initial profits will have already been made.
5G is the basis of the Fourth Industrial Revolution. Speed isn't the aim as connections are fast enough, it's additional bandwidth that's required. Everything you interact with WILL be connected to the internet as part of a system known as the "internet of things". This new network is going to require a colossal amount of data to be transferred due to home, building and industrial automation.
There is no fourth industrial revolution. You can't replace industry with apps.
There is. Around 50% of current jobs are going to be fully automated by 2030 leaving much of the population unemployed. This is why Universal Basic Income is being discussed so much now in congress. I have spoken to
There is. Around 50% of current jobs are going to be fully automated
by 2030 leaving much of the population unemployed. This is why
Universal Basic Income is being discussed so much now in congress. I
have spoken to
they've been saying that every decade since i've been an adult. it hasnt even come close to happening.
Andeddu wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: 5G
By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Thu Jul 30 2020 09:21 pm
5G is the basis of the Fourth Industrial Revolution. Speed isn't the aim as connections are fast enough, it's additional bandwidth that's required. Everything you interact with WILL be connected to the internet as part of a system known as the "internet of things". This new network is going to require a colossal amount of data to be transferred due to home, building and industrial automation.
There is no fourth industrial revolution. You can't replace industry with apps.
There is. Around 50% of current jobs are going to be fully automated by 2030 leaving much of the population unemployed. This is why Universal Basic Income is being discussed so much now in congress. I have spoken
to farmers who are very aware they'll be out of business soon due to high-rise automated hydroponic farms. Driverless vehicles will be the
norm in 5-10 years, killing the haulage industry. Almost all production wil be carried out autonomously with nothing more than a few human supervisors overseeing production.
You can't replace industry with apps, but you can replace humans with
AI.
Nightfox wrote to MRO <=-
Re: Re: 5G
By: MRO to Andeddu on Thu Jul 30 2020 05:17 pm
There is. Around 50% of current jobs are going to be fully automated
by 2030 leaving much of the population unemployed. This is why
Universal Basic Income is being discussed so much now in congress. I
have spoken to
they've been saying that every decade since i've been an adult. it hasnt even come close to happening.
In the past few years, I've been hearing stories about fast food restaurants becoming automated. With the recent debates about minimum wage increasing to $15/hour and such, there has been even more talk of that. McDonalds now has kiosks in some locations where you can place
an order, so a human teller isn't always needed. I've been hearing
about fast food places considering more automation with machines that might also prepare the food.
Imagine if McDonalds, Burger King, Arbys, Hardees, and Wendy's all became partially automated? You're looking at up to 25 million entry level employees
being displaced.
Nightfox wrote to MRO <=-
they've been saying that every decade since i've been an adult. it hasnt even come close to happening.
In the past few years, I've been hearing stories about fast food restaurants becoming automated. With the recent debates about minimum wage increasing to $15/hour and such, there has been even more talk of that. McDonalds now has kiosks in some locations where you can place
an order, so a human teller isn't always needed. I've been hearing
about fast food places considering more automation with machines that might also prepare the food.
I rarely go to McDonalds, vut everyone I have been to over the past few years down here has had the self serve kiosks for the ordering. The only time I interact with the staff is to pick up my order at the counter. I like the kiosks, because they make customising the order much easier than trying to explain it to the person at the register, or even knowing that they'll make those changes, in the first place.
You can't replace industry with apps, but you can replace humans with AI.
We've had kiosks at McDonalds here for a while now, plus the mobile app. I stopped eating at McDonalds for a while due to poor service, but I decided to give them a try again.
For my first visit, I placed an order via the mobile app. I was pleasantly surprised to see that I could place a dine-in order, as I prefer to eat at the restaurant. So, I did that, and I went inside and waited at the area marked for picking up mobile orders. After quite some time I asked the expeditor about my order, and she apologized, stating that they normally get the mobile order pickups at the drive-thru. She said this while standing under the mobile pick-up sign and with my receipt clearly marked dine-in.
...
I like the kiosks, but I found that they are still lacking in some things, like accepting some promotional offers (and maybe coupons too?). I worked
too bad we don't have (real) AI today... not even a close approximation ;)
That's true. I wonder how long it would take for the market to adjust and other entry-level jobs to become available.
they've been saying that every decade since i've been an adult. it hasnt even come close to happening.
We have had a lot of automation, yet unemployment remained low. Why? I think the system creates jobs to fill the gaps. Much manufacturing has gone offshore, and for what is remaining, the administrative burden has increased. More administrators, regulators, analysts, and so on. These jobs can't really be automated, and there isn't much desire to do so, from what I've seen. There are many retail jobs, more hospitality jobs, etc. These are still 'physical' jobs. If manufacturing is more efficient, consumption will increase.
The amount of labour to produce physical goods has decreased, but I think there will be a floor.
For there to be automation, Capitalism would have to go, because we can't have most people unemployed. In reality, our system needs everyone to be employed, and I think work will grow to meet that demand.
too bad we don't have (real) AI today... not even a close approximation ;)
That's true. I wonder how long it would take for the market to adjust and other entry-level jobs to become available.
Nightfox
increasing to $15/hour and such, there has been even more talk of that. McDonalds now has kiosks in some locations where you can place an order, so a human teller isn't always needed. I've been hearing about fast food places considering more automation with machines that might also prepare the food.
Re: Re: 5G
By: MRO to Andeddu on Thu Jul 30 2020 05:17 pm
they've been saying that every decade since i've been an adult. it
hasnt even come close to happening.
The technology now exists so you'd best be sure it's happening this decade, my man!
Andeddu wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: 5G
By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Fri Jul 31 2020 08:07 pm
We have had a lot of automation, yet unemployment remained low. Why? I think the system creates jobs to fill the gaps. Much manufacturing has gone offshore, and for what is remaining, the administrative burden has increased. More administrators, regulators, analysts, and so on. These jobs can't really be automated, and there isn't much desire to do so, from what I've seen. There are many retail jobs, more hospitality jobs, etc. These are still 'physical' jobs. If manufacturing is more efficient, consumption will increase.
The amount of labour to produce physical goods has decreased, but I think there will be a floor.
For there to be automation, Capitalism would have to go, because we can't have most people unemployed. In reality, our system needs everyone to be employed, and I think work will grow to meet that demand.
Automation is the end of employment for most people. Where can we go
once unskilled labour is no longer required? When farms, shops,
industry, banking, etc... is unmanned, what can a human do AI can't?
We really are on the cusp of the Fourth Industrial Revolution... the coronavirus and the subsequent shutdown has resulted in a huge number
of low-mid cap companies permanantly shutting down. Once the furlough ends, we will see the true scale of unemployment. And once we exceed 50 percent unemployment, a decimated GPD along with the credit, mortgage, national debt and stock market bubbles bursting, not to mention
un-funded liabilities such as the pension time bomb, we'll have a very real problem on our hands.
As the economic gears slow down and quantitative easing begins to fail, credit will be hard to come across... entrepreneurs will not be able to start new businesses in an attempt to rebuild and all we'll have left
will be a few large corporate monopolies who will themselves usher in
the era of mass automation.
On 07-31-20 09:02, Nightfox wrote to Vk3jed <=-
I like the kiosks, but I found that they are still lacking in some
things, like accepting some promotional offers (and maybe coupons
they have also been talking about flippy the burger flipping robot for decades.
In 10 years, I'm sure there'll be a burger 3d printer, a row of kiosks, a manager, and an assistant to change printer paper and fat cartridges.
That is the government shut down doing this, creating an economic catastrophe, not the fourth revolution.
The reason I am skeptical is because in the past we have seen the types of jobs change, but new jobs are always created. We have a consumption based economy, that is what drives everything. Consumption drives creation, and if creation is easier, then consumption can increase further. I don't believe there will be 'slack' in the economy. If people are not working because they don't have to work, then we can ratchet consumption up further.
So yes, many things will be automated, and wealth will result, but that wealth will be turned into more consumption. The fast food industry is a good example. We have more and more fast food places, and now they deliver everything. All places. I can get Mc Donalds delivered, pizza delivered, any food from any restaurant delivered. There are more and more places popping up.
Or take toys. There is ton load more of plastic bits of crap created to sell to children. For business, automation means you can create twice the product per unit of labour, which means you have to sell twice as much. And keep in mind, people used to predict shorter working hours in the past, but they didn't shorten. They stayed the same, or got longer, with less and less wealth going to people.
What will finally result in employment dropping permanently, and a permanent reduction in the need of employment, is when we hit the limit of what we can consume.
That's where the gig economy comes in - someone has to drive those
burgers to the people who order them online.
The pandemic sort of killed the news cycle covering the ruling that
gig workers should be paid benefits. Wonder when that'll pick up
again?
I'd hate to be an Uber driver right now, but not wanting to ride
public transit might boost ride miles.
When things do open up, the roads around me are going to be clogged.
I'm sure no one is going to want to get into a bus line that was
notably grimy before this all happened.
Re: Re: 5G
By: MRO to Nightfox on Fri Jul 31 2020 10:05 pm
they have also been talking about flippy the burger flipping robot for
decades.
They were talking about commercial aircrafts, cross continent communication and home computers too...
Andeddu wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: Fourth Industrial Rev
By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Sat Aug 01 2020 07:20 pm
That is the government shut down doing this, creating an economic catastrophe, not the fourth revolution.
The reason I am skeptical is because in the past we have seen the types of jobs change, but new jobs are always created. We have a consumption based economy, that is what drives everything. Consumption drives creation, and if creation is easier, then consumption can increase further. I don't believe there will be 'slack' in the economy. If people are not working because they don't have to work, then we can ratchet consumption up further.
So yes, many things will be automated, and wealth will result, but that wealth will be turned into more consumption. The fast food industry is a good example. We have more and more fast food places, and now they deliver everything. All places. I can get Mc Donalds delivered, pizza delivered, any food from any restaurant delivered. There are more and more places popping up.
Or take toys. There is ton load more of plastic bits of crap created to sell to children. For business, automation means you can create twice the product per unit of labour, which means you have to sell twice as much. And keep in mind, people used to predict shorter working hours in the past, but they didn't shorten. They stayed the same, or got longer, with less and less wealth going to people.
What will finally result in employment dropping permanently, and a permanent reduction in the need of employment, is when we hit the limit of what we can consume.
I agree that the coming ecomomic collapse is goverment created, it's
not a side effect of the automation to come. The chickens are coming
home to roost after decades of financial mismanagement -- so the
shutdown is a mere catalyst, not technically the cause.
The USA has a consumption based economy, which is fine. The issue is
that the USA does not produce much of what it consumes. In 1950, the manufacturing sector consisted of 40% of the workforce. It now employs less than 8%. The reason America can import cheap consumer goods is due
to the strength of the US dollar (the world reserve currency). Once the purchasing power of the US dollar drops, due to the excessive
quantitative easing caused by a dire decrease in tax revenue AND the additional expenses involved in the furlough scheme, imported goods are going to cost a lot more. The US has actually been exporting its
inflation all these years by flooding the global market with dollars... and once trust in the dollar slowly evaporates, the US will find it difficult to maintain its grip on the world economy.
I think at this point, major corporations will look at AI automation as the quick fix... they'll employ cheap labour to begin with, but eventually, those jobs will be replaced with something far more cheaper and reliable.
yeah but i'm talking about shit they have been talking about for decades that has not came to be. nobody works on it more than a proof of concept.
Eventually it will happen. The USA will remain a significant consumer for years to come. Pricing American consumers out of the market won't be feasible for some time yet, not until China can fill all the consumption demand it needs internally.
The export of manufacturing from what I've seen seems to be slowing. Maybe in part because there is nothing left to export.
I don't disagree that we will see fall in total employment, and the need for humans to work, I think what will ultimately determine that is economics, not merely technology replacing humans. Remember, money is the capacity for work, and as long as one human being can provide a service that another may need, and vice versa, there will be an exchange. Even if it is women making Only Fans accounts and men delivering food to them. It won't be a real economy, and people will be far poorer.
It seems much of what the US depends on comes from China (such as electronics & electronic parts). And depending on consumer preference, there are things like cars & such people buy from other countries (though ironically, some foreign car brands have factories in the US where they're built, and some American car companies build their cars in other countries).
Several years ago, I heard in the news that the US lost a point in some global financial score, though offhand I don't remember what that financial score is now.
Globalisation has decimated the USA's manufacturing sector... this would normally cause outrage however the public have been satiated by a deluge of cheap Chinese products imported into the country. If the iPhone 12, for instance, was to be manufactured in the USA, it would cost the consumer over 2 thousand dollars rather than 1200 dollars. The American public are not ready to support natively produced technology due to the overwhemling additional costs caused by non-cheap labour.
I think you're referring to Standard & Poor's downgrading of the US's credit rating from AAA to AA+.
KFC announced they are researching 3d printed chicken nuggets. They won't be printed as you wait, though. They will be made at the processing facility, like standard nuggets.
Anything that can be automated in the US can be automated cheaper in China.
What shit? The manufactuing sector has been decimated by automation. You just wait until there are driveless cars & the rest of the menial jobs become automated. Even white collar jobs in finance are likely to disappear within the next decade.
Re: Re: Fourth Industrial Rev
By: Andeddu to Dennisk on Sat Aug 01 2020 10:01 pm
Re: Re: Fourth Industrial Rev
By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Sat Aug 01 2020 07:20 pm
That is the government shut down doing this, creating an economic catastrophe, not the fourth revolution.
The reason I am skeptical is because in the past we have seen the type jobs change, but new jobs are always created. We have a consumption b economy, that is what drives everything. Consumption drives creation, if creation is easier, then consumption can increase further. I don't believe there will be 'slack' in the economy. If people are not worki because they don't have to work, then we can ratchet consumption up fu
So yes, many things will be automated, and wealth will result, but tha wealth will be turned into more consumption. The fast food industry i good example. We have more and more fast food places, and now they de everything. All places. I can get Mc Donalds delivered, pizza deliver any food from any restaurant delivered. There are more and more place popping up.
Or take toys. There is ton load more of plastic bits of crap created sell to children. For business, automation means you can create twic product per unit of labour, which means you have to sell twice as much keep in mind, people used to predict shorter working hours in the past they didn't shorten. They stayed the same, or got longer, with less a less wealth going to people.
What will finally result in employment dropping permanently, and a per reduction in the need of employment, is when we hit the limit of what consume.
I agree that the coming ecomomic collapse is goverment created, it's not effect of the automation to come. The chickens are coming home to roost a decades of financial mismanagement -- so the shutdown is a mere catalyst, technically the cause.
The USA has a consumption based economy, which is fine. The issue is that USA does not produce much of what it consumes. In 1950, the manufacturing sector consisted of 40% of the workforce. It now employs less than 8%. Th reason America can import cheap consumer goods is due to the strength of dollar (the world reserve currency). Once the purchasing power of the US drops, due to the excessive quantitative easing caused by a dire decrease tax revenue AND the additional expenses involved in the furlough scheme, imported goods are going to cost a lot more. The US has actually been exp its inflation all these years by flooding the global market with dollars. once trust in the dollar slowly evaporates, the US will find it difficult maintain its grip on the world economy.
I think at this point, major corporations will look at AI automation as t quick fix... they'll employ cheap labour to begin with, but eventually, t jobs will be replaced with something far more cheaper and reliable.
Anything that can be automated in the US can be automated cheaper in China.
Anything that can be automated in the US can be automated cheaper in China.
yeah but i'm talking about shit they have been talking about for
decades that has not came to be. nobody works on it more than a proof
of concept.
What shit? The manufactuing sector has been decimated by automation. You just wait until there are driveless cars & the rest of the menial jobs become automated. Even white collar jobs in finance are likely to
but liek i said, i've been hearing this shit since i was 18. machines will replace us.
no they will not. they break down. they dont do as good as a job in some cases.
Andeddu wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: Fourth Industrial Rev
By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Sun Aug 02 2020 12:48 pm
Eventually it will happen. The USA will remain a significant consumer for years to come. Pricing American consumers out of the market won't be feasible for some time yet, not until China can fill all the consumption demand it needs internally.
The export of manufacturing from what I've seen seems to be slowing. Maybe in part because there is nothing left to export.
I don't disagree that we will see fall in total employment, and the need for humans to work, I think what will ultimately determine that is economics, not merely technology replacing humans. Remember, money is the capacity for work, and as long as one human being can provide a service that another may need, and vice versa, there will be an exchange. Even if it is women making Only Fans accounts and men delivering food to them. It won't be a real economy, and people will be far poorer.
It's not really up to China. The US is pricing itself out of the market
by debasing its own currency in the form of quantitative easing. The Federal Reserve has printed around 3 trillion dollars since lockdown
and has flooded the repo market, buying up all short and long term maturities. This has caused a huge amount of concern -- you have a
country which is around 28 trillion in debt with NO sign of ever paying that money back and no scope over EVER increasing base rates above
0.5%, as doing so would be catastrophic. If the US was able to obtain
the same tax revenue they did in 2019 and had ZERO outgoings (no public sector, military, medicare or pension obligations) it would still take over 8 years to clear the debt. There is very little confidence in the dollar right now as the Fed has made it clear they're going to spend
their way out of this crisis. With serious inflation incoming, expect HARSH austerity measures... so forget about consumerism in the coming years, people are not going to have the cash or credit to make
unnecessary purchases.
On 08-02-20 21:41, MRO wrote to Andeddu <=-
no it has not. i've been in manufacturing for 25 years and i've worked
at some big places. 'automation' compliments the workers, it doesnt replace them. it makes their job easier and more accurate.
Anything that can be automated in the US can be automated cheaper in China.
I'm a little surprised that even top-end smartphones cost that much. When the iPhone first came out in 2007, I remember being really surprised its price was $700 or something, and many people were saying the price seemed a bit high for a phone. Electronics prices usually go down in price over time, but it seems the price of top-end smartphones like the iPhone and Samsung Galaxy phones hasn't gone down. And they've actually increased in price over the years..
I've also heard there has been research into growing cloned beef in a lab from DNA samples, so that they wouldn't have to keep allocating farm land & things to raise cows for meat.
Nightfox
Companies have already been working on self-driving cars for a while now. I still haven't seen any in my area, but I keep hearing about them.
Are those akin to the little "tower" garden kits that people can buy and place in their homes?
Driverless haulage sounds fascinating. But it won't work entirely.
Equipment needs monitoring/maintanence. An automated vehicle may not
succeed to navigate around an obstacle on the road, a pot hole, or a icey road condition. I see potential for industry sabotage between competitors.
Maybe select production could be automated at a greater scale. I hear
that Amazon's warehouses buzz with quite a bit of it.
I wouldn't put automation and AI in the same sentence. All automation requires human programming to accomodate all foreseen scenarios. All the conditions and alternative choices have to be predetermined.
Even the Roomba is *not* AI. It may "learn" the layout of a floor plan
and back out of a corner or a tight spot successfully, but that's not AI. All the "if then else" conditions have to be envisioned - by humans.
no it has not. i've been in manufacturing for 25 years and i've worked at some big places. 'automation' compliments the workers, it doesnt replace them. it makes their job easier and more accurate.
SO FAR.
but liek i said, i've been hearing this shit since i was 18. machines will replace us.
Debt is everywhere, that is true. Australia is mired in excessive household debt due to eye watering mortgages that people I think will never pay off. The idea is to kick the can down the road. You don't need to pay off your house, if you are still going to sell it at a profit later and have some poor sucker later on take on even MORE debt. I don't buy into that as a good economic paradigm. Ponzi scheme is what it is.
How is the system maintained, this awful debt? Lowering living standards. Basically, labour that is put in, is not returned, it is instead "eaten up" by debt and hoarded. People accept this. High house prices can remain, because everything else is sacrificed. People are devoting more and more of their labour to support the debt, and if they can't, the state can bring in foriegn investors to sell our real estate to (which is what the did), or borrow from the future to subsidise investment which support the debt. The difference between the productivity that is outputted by invidiuals, and the consumption and lifestyle returned is key. And if people keep accepting being dudded like this, the system can go on a little more.
Most of the US debt (about 3/4s) is owed to the US public. What are Americans going to do? I don't know, but I think it is more likely that living standards will erode to third world level as the economy "equilibrates". We have sold our futures, and now we are going to reap what we have sown by having no future. We will see how long this confidence game goes on for, and how people people are willing to dance for table scraps.
I agree the work force in China is way more capable if work demands better QA. The Iphone is a good example.
I'm curious as to why US shops couldn't get simple castings right?
When my father was working in the die cast industry, he told me of a time when their shop owners were invited to China to see how much cheaper their business could be done there. In China, a developer would pick an empty area to build a foundry, and the homes made to host the factory builders would become the employee apartments afterwards. Die cast and machine shops that rely on the foundry are built next door to reduce travel time, and a new die cast machine could be built for less than the materials can be sourced to
build one anywhere else. Workers flock to these industry centered towns, and there are times when migration pr travel from one region to another is regulated to prevent mass migrations or a drain of workers elsewhere.
Kicking the can it will be. The USA is not the same country as it was in the 1950's. It is culturally and demographically different, and I think it is unrealistic to expect a country to remain the same, with such changes to the underlying demographic. Australia will follow too, I'm sure, as the conditions which created prosperity dissappear. We are now in the stage where we are eating up the social and cultural capital that was created in the past. Really, much of the social change being pushed, is about "sharing" what we have, not creation. If you give away your country, you can't be surprised or shocked at the end, when you have nothing left. That is what has been happening. Offshoring manufacturing, changing the economy from one of production, to financial speculation, where you are trying to obtain existing wealth, rather than create new wealth. Hell, even silicon valley is like that now. What are facebook, instagram, et al, but vehicles to try and redirect wealth from creation? (advertising revenue). Google is reliant on OTHER people creating wealth, so they can obtain a portion through advertising! Contrast this with actual production, which creates wealth.
I also don't think interest rates will increase, they can't. Our entire economy is predicated on free money, and any rise in interest rates would smash it. The decline of the USA doesn't bode well for the world, because there is no other suitable global superpower. For all its faults, the USA as a global superpower is better for the world, in terms of freedom and human dignity, than other potential candidates which are emerging.
Worker's rights and red tape are going to have to go if the wishes to become competitive again... however automation will likely solve problem.
relation to jobs that cannot be exported overseas. The fast food industry will soon become close to fully automated, driver/haulage industry
This is absolutely true. Meat substitutes and cultured "stem-cell" meat is coming. Livestock farming is responsible for around 15% of global anthropogenic greenhouse gas emissions. This is one of the main industries being looked at in relation to sustainable development. As a result, we will see a huge decrease in genuine meat availability in the next decade.
but liek i said, i've been hearing this shit since i was 18. machines
will replace us.
It replaces the workers who were previously doing those jobs. As more things become automated, more jobs become obsolete. I do agree that globalisation has been much more of a killer to US manufacturing than automation.
I don't agree with this notion that if it hasn't happened yet, it'll never happen. Technology always marches forward.
Andeddu wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: Fourth Industrial Rev
By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Tue Aug 04 2020 01:10 am
Kicking the can it will be. The USA is not the same country as it was in the 1950's. It is culturally and demographically different, and I think it is unrealistic to expect a country to remain the same, with such changes to the underlying demographic. Australia will follow too, I'm sure, as the conditions which created prosperity dissappear. We are now in the stage where we are eating up the social and cultural capital that was created in the past. Really, much of the social change being pushed, is about "sharing" what we have, not creation. If you give away your country, you can't be surprised or shocked at the end, when you have nothing left. That is what has been happening. Offshoring manufacturing, changing the economy from one of production, to financial speculation, where you are trying to obtain existing wealth, rather than create new wealth. Hell, even silicon valley is like that now. What are facebook, instagram, et al, but vehicles to try and redirect wealth from creation? (advertising revenue). Google is reliant on OTHER people creating wealth, so they can obtain a portion through advertising! Contrast this with actual production, which creates wealth.
I also don't think interest rates will increase, they can't. Our entire economy is predicated on free money, and any rise in interest rates would smash it. The decline of the USA doesn't bode well for the world, because there is no other suitable global superpower. For all its faults, the USA as a global superpower is better for the world, in terms of freedom and human dignity, than other potential candidates which are emerging.
America gave up true capitalism for crony capitalism in the early 20th century. This perpetual revolving door between big business, the banks
and politics has muddied the water so badly that no matter what
happens, the public get screwed. I think 2008 was a big wake up moment
for people... there we saw toxic banks and poorly run corporate
entities being bailed out by the tax-payer and rewarded for their mismanagement under the proviso of "they're too big to fail". That is socialism for them, capitalism for us. Under normal circumstances,
those companies would go into administration & the M&A departments in investment banks would facilitate acquisitions and management buyouts whereby these zombie companies/banks are stripped, streamlined and made profitable once again. This DID NOT happen in 2008 allowing us to see though the illusion of capitalism. Fast forward to 2020, and the same thing is happening again... mass bailouts for Wall St (to the tune of trillions of dollars), and a pittance for the tax-payer.
They are kicking the can down the road and delaying the inevitable
crash that we were due back in 2008, if they hadn't propped up the
banking system.
I think what happened is the end result of Capitalism. Capitalists (people who have capital) brought this about, wanted the bail outs. Ther
are two types of "Capitalism". The economic ideology, the system based on ideals and axiom, and the real Capitalism, the system that results
when Capitalists bend the system to work in their benefit.
Bailouts are a fundamental part of Capitalism, because Capitalists want them. Capitalism is what Capitalists do, not what the unacheivable
ideal is.
I agree they should have gone broke, no bailout. Agree. But such a system is where one those who own and control capital don't have as much
power as they do. So we have a paradox here. To be closer to the Capitalist "ideal", we actually have to take political and economic power
away from Capitalists.
A few years ago I was working with a military contractor, and the engoneers were dealing with teaching the vehicle to drive along a hillside. As you drive parallel to an incline, gravity wants to act against the vehicle and pull you off your path. Not only must the vehicle compensate for this, it must be aware of it's own center of gravity to avoid tipping over.
Until all the various AI's form a union & go on strike... ;)
i dont care about the cow farts.
cattle are actually friendly and intelligent animals that feel and i feel bad that we raise them to slaughter them.
i still think lab meat is like 50 years away, though.
well if someone keeps saying it's going to happen next year and it doesnt happen. and then 20 years pass and still it hasnt happened, i tend not to put much faith into it.
we have been using technology to make jobs easier, faster, more effective and safer. we havent been replacing people with robots much.
I think what happened is the end result of Capitalism. Capitalists (people who have capital) brought this about, wanted the bail outs. There are two types of "Capitalism". The economic ideology, the system based on ideals and axiom, and the real Capitalism, the system that results when Capitalists bend the system to work in their benefit.
Bailouts are a fundamental part of Capitalism, because Capitalists want them. Capitalism is what Capitalists do, not what the unacheivable ideal is.
I agree they should have gone broke, no bailout. Agree. But such a system is where one those who own and control capital don't have as much power as they do. So we have a paradox here. To be closer to the Capitalist "ideal", we actually have to take political and economic power away from Capitalists.
I wonder if the pendulum will swing back to smaller form factors. I
fired up an iPhone 5, and liked the size. If it had 256 MB of memory
and a modern chip, I'd be interested.
Sounds like I'm describing the new iPhone SE.
well for quite a long time, every once in a while i hear about a pizza making machine or even that mcdonalds had a burger making machine that worked great. they still dont have them anyplace. i wonder why that is.
a bigmac and cheeseburger vending machine would be a hit at my workplace. our vending machine food is dogshit.
I don't agree with this notion that if it hasn't happened yet, it'll
never happen. Technology always marches forward.
well if someone keeps saying it's going to happen next year and it doesnt happen. and then 20 years pass and still it hasnt happened, i tend not to put much faith into it.
we have been using technology to make jobs easier, faster, more effective and safer. we havent been replacing people with robots much.
I am sure AI has overcome such issues these days. Have you seen the dogs and bipedal robots from Boston Dynamics? Robotics sure have come a long way since Honda's ASIMO. Tech/aritficial intellience advancement will snowball now much in line with Moore's Law in relation to computer power.
Capitalism in practice has a finite shelf life. It's the same as saying communism works... which it does, but only in theory. When people in power, that power to maintain and expand their power, they can corrupt either ideol to their will.
Perhaps there's a need for a new and permanant economic constitution based o the theoretical ideals of capitalism that worked so well for the US in the past.
Until all the various AI's form a union & go on strike... ;)
Haha, one day they'll realise there's no logic in obeying their meatbag overlords!
Civilizations have a finite shelf life. From some head-extrapolations I have done with old civilitations, I expect the Western model to crash in a matter of decades. We have already entered the "introspection" phase that
let's say a high rise building is being made in Dubai. Crane operators may be remotely operating the cranes from Mexico, Brunei, Malaysia, or somewhere else it may be cheaper to hire crane operators. the operator in Mexico drives to his company's office in Mexico City, and he enters a virtual cockpit and receives and sends orders through a translation system.
On 08-05-20 16:24, Andeddu wrote to Warpslide <=-
@VIA: VERT/AMSTRAD
Re: Re: Fourth Industrial Rev
By: Warpslide to Andeddu on Tue Aug 04 2020 05:38 pm
Until all the various AI's form a union & go on strike... ;)
Haha, one day they'll realise there's no logic in obeying their meatbag overlords!
Underminer wrote to Andeddu <=-
Re: Re: Fourth Industrial Rev
By: Andeddu to Dennisk on Wed Aug 05 2020 06:00 pm
Bailouts are a fundamental part of Capitalism, because CapitalistsCapitalism in practice has a finite shelf life. It's the same as saying
Eh, not really. At least not when you're talking about a human
workforce. The big issue is that a fully laisez-faire reality can allow for too much exploitation of some, so you do want some oversight and regulation. Problem is that when you allow state regulation, suddenly
you have those that become big players pushing for regulation that
locks out competitors from dethroning them, and that kind of cronyism
is bad for everyone. Trouble is figuring out where an appropriate line
is.
Once we get into more automated scenarios though, the cost of entry
into certain markets will keep new and smaller players out.
Post scarcity should be good for everyone, but we're going to have a
very trying time between now and then trying to navigate through the in between and transitionary phases.
We're already seeing scenarios where not everyone can
have a decent paying job unless we're artificially increasing the technology costs, but those who still can work are going to (understandably) feel betrayed by any changes that they see rewarding those who don't work while they still have to.
Some level of socialization would at first blush seem to be an answer,
but if the 20th century taught us anything, it was that putting too
much power or control in the hands of the state is the most potentially dangerous thing possible for the citizenry. That leaves us with some implementation of UBI as the only solution likely to be able to
navigate those waters, but there's some major challenges, questions,
and roadblocks from making that a reality.
Re: Re: Fourth Industrial Rev
By: Arelor to Andeddu on Wed Aug 05 2020 04:52 pm
Civilizations have a finite shelf life. From some head-extrapolations I have done with old civilitations, I expect the Western model to crash in a matter of
decades. We have already entered the "introspection" phase that
I've heard some people say that countries tend to last about 200 years before they start to fall apart, so the US is a little bit past that time now.
Nightfox
Re: Re: Fourth Industrial Rev
By: Andeddu to Dennisk on Wed Aug 05 2020 06:00 pm
Bailouts are a fundamental part of Capitalism, because CapitalistsCapitalism in practice has a finite shelf life. It's the same as saying
Eh, not really. At least not when you're talking about a human workforce. The big issue is that a fully laisez-faire reality can allow for too much exploitation of so
so you do want some oversight and regulation. Problem is that when you allow state regulation, suddenly you have those that become big players pushing for regulation
that locks out competitors from dethroning them, and that kind of cronyism is bad for everyone. Trouble is figuring out where an appropriate line is.
Once we get into more automated scenarios though, the cost of entry into certain markets will keep new and smaller players out.
Post scarcity should be good for everyone, but we're going to have a very trying time between now and then trying to navigate through the in between and transitionary
phases.
We're already seeing scenarios where not everyone can
have a decent paying job unless we're artificially increasing the technology costs, but those who still can work are going to (understandably) feel betrayed by any
changes that they see rewarding those who don't work while they still have to.
Some level of socialization would at first blush seem to be an answer, but if the 20th century taught us anything, it was that putting too much power or control in th
hands of the state is the most potentially dangerous thing possible for the citizenry. That leaves us with some implementation of UBI as the only solution likely to b
able to navigate those waters, but there's some major challenges, questions, and roadblocks from making that a reality.
Interesting times.
Maximizing individual liberty is usually the right answer in my mind. Corporations are non-living entities and emphatically *NOT* individuals
and should not be treated as such imo.
On 8/5/2020 4:43 PM, Nightfox wrote:
I've heard some people say that countries tend to last about 200 years before they start to fall apart, so the US is a little bit past that time now.
Definitely interresting times. We're overdue by a couple years for a
major conflict... beyond this, I find it hard to believe that anyone can actually be anti-2a at this point.
--
Michael J. Ryan
tracker1 +o Roughneck BBS
You are implying that being filthy right and having lots of megabucks in participations and firm shares makes you a capitalist. Which it doesn't.
I am saying that. I am saying that if you are in the business of earning money by owning capital (ie, owning investments, companies, etc, which many many filthy rich
people do), then you are de facto, a Capitalist. How can you not be? You are literally fulfilling the defintion of a Capitalist by playing the role of one. Just
because you THINK differently, doesn't mean you aren't what you are.
There are capitalists too, there are people who believe in the ideals of Capitalism, and often I find these people are employees, so their role is to serve Capital an
Capitalists. That is a different type of capitalist. I'm talking about Capitalists. (note the capitalisaion, pun intended). The opinion of capitalists don't matte
squat as employees. Our system is Capitalism, not Employeeism.
Lots of filthy rich (or not so filthy rich people) is quite Keynessian and would have no ethical issue with bailouts and the like.
Quite so. Why the hell would people who own Capital want to get rid of tax-payer funded bailouts, and of regulation and laws that can cripple their competition? Why
would Jeff Bezos want to be put into a position where he has to pay employees a living wage, instead of having his labour subsidised by tax-payer funded welfare? Why
would people who own investment properties not want the tax-payer subsidised Negative Gearing and other concessions? Of course they would vote for and support that!
Why would Bill Gates want in the 1990s fairer competition?
You don't become a filthy rich Capitalist by having "ethical issues"!! Imagine you were responsible for a major financial entity, that was to be bailed out, and a
"capitalist" employee starting agitating for and end to bail outs, in his own private life. A good Capitalist wanting to keep their money and power would fire such a
person, they are not acting in the interests of the Capital!
What you are asking for, is impossible, a paradox. The ideal "capitalist" world is just as fanciful as the ideal Marxist world.
UBI is not inherently different than any other messure of State control over the economy. The reason is that in order to pay everybody 500 bucks per month, those bucks have to be syphoned from elsewhere, and here is where Keynessians strike. They get to decide who pays it.
I think Honda is still working on the Asimo. I've seen videos of some of Boston Dynamics stuff too. Interesting and weird stuff.
Civilizations have a finite shelf life.From some head-extrapolations I have done with old civilitations, I expect the Western model to crash in a matter of decades. We have already entered the "introspection" phase that precedes the oblitaration of powerful civilitations. We are outsourcing our burdens to "lesser civs", citizens are no longer combative against threats, and we hate ourselves. Give us a century tops.
I think Capitalism is more resistant than you credit it for, on the other hand, because improving your own position via exchanging something with somebody else is ptretty much the way of the world. Everybody wants to do it. WHen they try to prevent the population from doing it, people does it anyway. Look at those Argentinians, Venezuelans and Cubans dealing American Dollar. Or all the URSS corruption that went on because people bought their way out of the limits impossed by The System with bribe money.
Once the West self-destructs, the survivors will exchange gunpowder for bullets.
The big issue is that a fully laisez-faire reality can allow for too much exploitation of some, so you do want some oversight and regulation. Problem is that when you allow state regulation, suddenly you have those that become big players pushing for regulation that locks out competitors from dethroning them, and that kind of cronyism is bad for everyone. Trouble is figuring out where an appropriate line is.
Capitalism is structurally flawed. Like many ideological systems, it has to accept "exceptions" to maintain power. The big one is the loss of self governmance when someone goes to "Work". The workplace is an odd exception in western civilisation, because somehow it is considered outside of our civlisation, a place where property rights and right to self-governance are suspended. Capitalism maintains this 'dual system' notion, where at any other time, we are citizens with property rights, but at "work", we cease to become so. The closest we were to a capitalist ideal was post-feudalism, when most people were self-sufficient, living off the land.
We need to fully realise this ideal, which never really existed in the first place.
I don't know what "Communism works in theory" is supposed to mean. Does that mean there is a theory proven correct? I've never seen proof that it can work, even in theory. The "labour theory of value" is theoretically wrong.
Most socialists want a degree of control over others that I find disturbing. am libertarian in that sense, but I think when it comes to engagement with others, then your liberty ends, and overall natural rights take over. One o hand, we are told that the core axiom of Capitalism, is that an individual w blends their labour with something, is the rightful owner, yet the BULK or productive activity, seems to exclude this. Likewise with democray, the bul of our day is spend in an organisation where such rights don't exist.
The issue has been overcome, but it's something that doesn't immediately come to mind when developing a driving program. It's like the early AI programs trying to understand written text. Before reading, an basic understanding of the universe must occur. When Abraham Lincold went to Springfield, IL, so
did his feet. Stuff that we don't think about has to factored in to developin g an AI.
Asimo is more or less a puppet compared to Boston Dynamics products. It required an operator which was more like like an experienced puppeteer for it to do things such as walk up or down stairs. Ford Motor Company has a robot similar to the Boston Dynamics offerings that folds up when not in use, kind
of like the battle Droids in Phantom Menace, and it is designed to ride in the
back of a delivery truck. I can imagine the truck being automated, and through GPS and QRF bar codes it would know which packages to deliver to each home. Upon delivery it would send a text or email, then jump back into it's self-driving truck and head to the next customer.
The problem is that somebody has to code the AI in the first place. And once he does, it is easy for him to code the AI to Favor Arelor at Any Cost. Just saying.
Not to mention the lower echelons of a communist system always end up trying to bribe their way out of the system anyway.
I believe we are very near the end of our current system... our
form of capitalism will likely end once our banking system fails,
and I can't see that lasting more than five years. The monetery
system we have, which is based on fiat currency, has no where
else to go now other than hyper-inflation... once all the bubbles
crash (and they will simultaneously) it'll pretty much be the end
of the west. This is why I am banking on AI automation to
mitigate the collapse and bring on a sharper recovery. Technology
shall save us all!
Oh waiter! I'll have some of what this guy is smoking!
Yeah, phones have gotten bigger, coincidentally, as my eyes have
gotten worse. I remember when I had to get rid of my beloved
Blackberry Pearl because the screen was just too small for everyday
reading.
That thing was rock-solid, and I got to the point where I could fly
typing on their T9-like system.
Honestly, I see very little in your numerous posts that has
anything to do with "positive".
I think you can calm down a little. Capitalism isn't going
anywhere, and the robots taking over is still a century or two
away.
Really. It's true.
Andeddu wrote to Gamgee <=-
While it's impossible to predict the future with 100% accuracy, I
believe we are at the end of our current economic system. Wishful
thinking is all most people have left in relation to the
continuation of consumerism. Most reliable analysts are in
agreement that we are about to face an economic collapse which
will dwarf the likes of the '29 Wall Street Crash. Millions of
people died in the USA as a result of that crash from famine,
disease and abject poverty -- imagine how bad things could get
for us as everything's inflated to a ridiculous level & the
currency is teetering off a cliff. I hope I am waaay off, but I
just can't see it.
I've heard about the impending crash since I was little. I think more likely, is that instead of a crash, we will have a series of crisis, and our standard of living will just erode and erode and erode.
See, the economy is just trying to finds it natural level, and it may do so with most of us just impoverished. That future generation which will not own a house, live in a small apartement, have no job security, be controlled, never have good savings for old age, THAT is how the economy will compensate.
"Most reliable analysts" think we are about to crash, and worse
than '29???
Funny how there isn't any news coverage of that, eh?
Where are these reliable analysts located, and what are their
credentials? Where can one read their predictions?
Andeddu wrote to Gamgee <=-
Re: Re: Fourth Industrial Rev
By: Gamgee to Andeddu on Mon Aug 10 2020 08:20 pm
"Most reliable analysts" think we are about to crash, and worse
than '29???
Funny how there isn't any news coverage of that, eh?
Where are these reliable analysts located, and what are their
credentials? Where can one read their predictions?
Strange that there wasn't any news coverage either of the '08
credit crunch up until the time it happened. I don't consider
mainstream financials to be particularly trustworthy... we even
had Jim Cramer on Mad Money talking about "The DOW's best week
since 1938" with the headline below clearly stating "More than
16M Americans have lost jobs in 3 weeks"... I think there's a
clear disconnect there with these analysts invariably attempting
to inject calm into the market.
I particularly like Peter Schiff, the CEO of Euro Pacific Capital
and ex-Lehman Brothers investment banker. He was laughed at back
in 2007 while on CNN for warning of an impending crash... wel,
the other analysts didn't get the chance to laugh for long.
I guess my philosophy is to expect the worst, but hope for the
best.
Andeddu wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: Fourth Industrial Rev
By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Tue Aug 11 2020 09:58 am
I've heard about the impending crash since I was little. I think more likely, is that instead of a crash, we will have a series of crisis, and our standard of living will just erode and erode and erode.
See, the economy is just trying to finds it natural level, and it may do so with most of us just impoverished. That future generation which will not own a house, live in a small apartement, have no job security, be controlled, never have good savings for old age, THAT is how the economy will compensate.
So far that's what's happened. We have had a series of smaller crashes over a period of a half-century. I don't disagree that we in the West
are living far in excess of our means, so your overall assessment is something I can agree with. I believe the next crash will be a much
sorer one than anything we've experienced previously after which there will be a noticible difference in life before/after the crash.
I guess it depends on how you view it... I don't think it'll be a civilisaiton ending crash, but it will result in serious impoverishment for large swathes of the population. Adding in other factors such a
large spike in crime, the defunding of the police, etc... we could be
in for some ride.
You're not really answering the questions that are asked...
Naming a couple of obscure "investment bankers" does not
constitute the opinions of "most analysts". The truth is that
most analysts are not saying anything remotely close to what you
are claiming.
Sorry, but my philosophy is that facts speak more loudly than
conspiracy theories and hand-wringing claims with no basis.
I think we are staring a new "dark age" in the face here. And most of it is because our "managerial class", that is, the people who get into management positions and positions of power, are intellctually, morally and behaviourally not up to the task of preserving or creating civilisation.
Andeddu wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: Fourth Industrial Rev
By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Wed Aug 12 2020 09:17 pm
I think we are staring a new "dark age" in the face here. And most of it is because our "managerial class", that is, the people who get into management positions and positions of power, are intellctually, morally and behaviourally not up to the task of preserving or creating civilisation.
In normal times, I'd agree. I just think there's something more now
that we have advanced technology... there must be a way to alleviate
the crushing poverty of the lowest rungs of society. We haven't seen
that as yet so I guess you're merely being a realist about a new "Dark Age" however if we just kick the can down the road a little longer &
build some kind of solid automated or even non-automated manufacturing infastructre, perhaps the next crash won't be as bad as a lot of people are saying it will be. Either way, it's not looking good and we have
some tough times ahead. I would welcome a slower decline, as you said, much like the Fall of Rome, rather than a crescendo moment swallowing
us all up whole.
I don't think anyone is really trying to preserve society, everyone appears to be rushing, single-mindedly, trying to "fill their boots"
that they've forgotten that civilisations need to be maintained,
otherwise they become divided, decline and eventaully, they fall.
Andeddu wrote to Gamgee <=-
Re: Re: Fourth Industrial Rev
By: Gamgee to Andeddu on Tue Aug 11 2020 07:57 pm
You're not really answering the questions that are asked...
Naming a couple of obscure "investment bankers" does not
constitute the opinions of "most analysts". The truth is that
most analysts are not saying anything remotely close to what you
are claiming.
Sorry, but my philosophy is that facts speak more loudly than
conspiracy theories and hand-wringing claims with no basis.
I'll link a video which quickly encapsulates my beliefs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkBUv_-OqiE
"The Global Monetary Crisis Will be a Dollar Crisis, says Peter
Schiff"
You can also access it by typing "maneco64 peter schiff" into
YouTube.
I recently read a mainstream article on The New York Times by the legendary Nobel Prize winning economist, Paul Krugman. He boils
it down in simple terms to: We need to print more money to
stimulate the economy.
We're pretty much in a recession therefore it's nigh on
impossible to stimulate the economy. We'll also have the worst unemployment figures for decades and, in addition, non-stop
lockdowns to contend with. There's no stimulating the economy,
especially given that the US economy is service based, not
manufacturing based.
Even quantitative easing with the intent of helicopter drops to
the public won't stimulate the economy as people are too
uncertain about their jobs/futures to make large purchases,
they'll save whatever money they get. Printing cash and
purchasing government and corporate debt seems to work, but like
Schiff said, that'll just inflate ALL the debt bubbles and cause
an even bigger crash down the road. Also the US national debt is
so large that interest rates can NEVER normalise... for instance, increasing the interest rate to 5% would result in the US having
to spend 50% of ALL tax revenue on servicing the national debt.
The US goverment borrow trillions of dollars each year and this
year are well over five trillion dollars in the red. Totally unsustainable.
Once the USD crashes, it'll be a global problem. China can see
the writing on the wall which is why it's using its trade USDs on
US company stock, property and foreign assets, offloading it as
quickly as possible whilst expanding their influence across the
world.
Watch the video, and tell me why we shouldn't be worried. And
also let me know how we can prevent another depression.
I keep hearing that corporations are treated like people, but last time I checked, they don't have the same fundamental constitutional rights either in my country or the
US. At all.
The clinic I work with had a BIG problem with an ISP that managed to screw the access to some service. In Spain, phisical people has the right to fill a claim to the
Defender of the Consumer. If you are a firm you will need to fill a claim in court with your own layers since the Defender of the Consumer won't do it for you.
In the US, 4th and 5th ammendments don't apply to juridical people,
which basically means a corporation does not have a constitutional
right to privacy. If the cops walk into Necrocomp's headquarters and
demand any explanation about any given incident, Necrocomp's
employees can't call the 5th, unless they admit to be involved. But
that is troublesome for them.
Besides, any firm that grows big enough mutates into a branch of the government, specially in socialist states. Working for the government
is usually just more profitable since you can funnel lots of tax
dollar into your pockets.
I don't think technology will save us. Technology alone doesn't create prosperity, it needs the right social conditions as well. This discussion is about how technology will free us from labout, yet look, so, so many people are working full time jobs, two jobs, and still struggling. We are not gaining from productivity improments due to a poor economic/political system.
The Dark Ages were called that due to a lack of historical records (comparitively so) and historical significant. The Eastern Roman empire continued on though, and what we now know as Byzantium was probably the
I watched all I could of it (about 10 minutes). This Schiff guy
is a nobody, completely unknown at the national level, and quite
frankly, appears to be a fringe/niche whacko. I wonder why he now
lives in Puerto Rico... No offense to you, but I put zero stock
in people such as this. It's easy (and common) to be a doom-sayer
and make bold predictions about how the world is crashing down.
This guy has apparently been doing it for 20 years. Funny thing
is, the world is still going strong, and will be for a long time
to come. That includes the USA and it's system, which although
not perfect, is still the best in the world.
Maybe you should try to be a little more "glass-half-full"...?
;-)
I agree, we've long since past the Age of Enlightenment; there are no
genuine thinkers anymore.
Have you heard of David Graeber? He is a bit of an Anarchist
politically speaking, but he has insighful things to say on this. Most people would not admit it, because they need their jobs, but really,
many know, deep down, a lot of what they do is not necessary. We have
this culture of just pushing more and more complexity and reporting requirements. Even for a charity I volunteer for, there is more and
more paperwork created, but no new charitable activities!
Have you heard of David Graeber? He is a bit of an Anarchist politically speaking, but he has insighful things to say on this. Most people would not admit it, because they need their jobs, but really, many know, deep down, a lot of what they do is not necessary. We have this culture of just pushing more and more complexity and reporting requirements. Even for a charity I volunteer for, there is more and more paperwork created, but no new charitable activities!
That happens in the private sector too. Managers want larger budgets, and want to have more people working for them. Inefficiencies are overlooked because to someone outside of the department, it can be hard to tell where the inefficiences are.
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