Non-invasive + surgical sound like an oxymoron. The wires are intended to pierce certain areas deep in the brain.
From a London (CNN Business) 2019/07/17 article:
"the devices can be used by those seeking a memory boost or by stroke victims, cancer patients, quadriplegics or others with congenital
defects."
Ya.. that sounds good.
"The chips will connect to an iPhone app that the user can control."
That DOESN'T sound too good. That's just another thing that is sure to be exploited from the outside.
Sounds a little crazy, but this appears to be the beginning the trans- humanist experience.
So far, it doesn't sound much different than a heart pace-maker implant,
or the implants for diabetes patients to report blood sugar and control automatic insulin injections. Neurolink is being done in the guise of helping handicapped persons. It wouldn't be too long before it is done
for entertainment and military purposes.
In true Musk style, he has hinted that Neuralink isn't just for those who are disadvantaged by disability. He clearly states that everyone in the future will have the procedure carried out so that they too can achieve a "symbiosis with artificial intelligence."
Musk seems to have some weird ideas. Why would you want to do that?
Also, I've heard Elon Musk thinks we're probably living in a simulation, like the movie "The Matrix":
"Medtronic and the FDA left an insulin pump with a potentially deadly vulnerability on the market-until researchers who found the flaw showed how bad it could be."
https://www.wired.com/story/medtronic-insulin-pump-hack-app/
Jay
I can't see man merging with machine for at least a number of decades. Musk said it'll happen in a meaningful way in around 5 years, but I think he's being a little too ambitious with his time scale. We will one day
Re: Neuralink
By: Andeddu to Nightfox on Tue Aug 11 2020 04:17 pm
I can't see man merging with machine for at least a number of decades. Musk said it'll happen in a meaningful way in around 5 years, but I thi he's being a little too ambitious with his time scale. We will one day
But the question is, why? Why would we want to merge with machines? I tend think of sci-fi things like The Matrix, the Borg from Star Trek, etc..
Nightfox
I wonder if there would be benefits to alzheimer patients.
A silly thought experiment. A waste of time.
It's a kind of invasive operation in my book.
Who's is to say that the electronics would be immmune to interception and/ or trigger seizures or fits.
It's all fine and dandy to imagine something like StarTrek's Borg characters, but how these wires and probes and signals that are fed to the brain will affect normal biology is another matter.
Was it The Matrix where the characters have some sort of "plug" at the
base of their skulls?
I would think that the interfaces for these sorts of things would prove to be a maintenance nightmare as they would be a source of infection.
Musk may be a tech guy, but he's not a biology guy.
No thanks. I'd let other people be the guinea pigs for Version 1.0. and even a few more versions beyond that.
Somehow, I treasure the option to just tune out of all things tech when I want to. Even my home phone is *off* for 21 hours of the day: no ring and
no messages.
But the question is, why? Why would we want to merge with machines? I tend to think of sci-fi things like The Matrix, the Borg from Star Trek, etc..
But the question is, why? Why would we want to merge with machines?
I tend think of sci-fi things like The Matrix, the Borg from Star
Trek, etc..
If I were a marketing dude I would sell it like this:
* No need for more phones. Use your iMplant to place phone calls and send instant iMessages.
* Use the power of iComputing by linking your brain to iBanana edge servers. Let the computer do math for you. Hell, let the comptuer THINK for you! * Download films directly into your brain. Wtahc them without a screen!
Re: Neuralink
By: Andeddu to Nightfox on Tue Aug 11 2020 04:17 pm
I can't see man merging with machine for at least a number of
decades. Musk said it'll happen in a meaningful way in around 5
years, but I think he's being a little too ambitious with his time
scale. We will one day
But the question is, why? Why would we want to merge with machines? I tend to think of sci-fi things like The Matrix, the Borg from Star Trek, etc..
Nightfox
Re: Neuralink
By: Arelor to Nightfox on Wed Aug 12 2020 03:20 pm
But the question is, why? Why would we want to merge with machines?
I tend think of sci-fi things like The Matrix, the Borg from Star
Trek, etc..
If I were a marketing dude I would sell it like this:
* No need for more phones. Use your iMplant to place phone calls and send instant iMessages.
* Use the power of iComputing by linking your brain to iBanana edge servers. Let the computer do math for you. Hell, le
the comptuer THINK for you! * Download films directly into your brain. Wtahc them without a screen!
I know there could be benefits like that, but I think there are also risks with that too (physical and I suppose ethical ris
too). With enhanced abilities, I'd be concerned that some poeple would start to consider such implants so useful that it co
lead to situations where employers might only want to hire people who have such implants (due to their enhanced abilities an
enhanced work productivity), etc., etc.. And then even if someone wanted to get such an implant, they might not be able to
afford it, etc.. Sort of a class division in society. And possibly other problems too.. And I know it probably sounds sil
but it seems like a slippery slope where we might end up like the Borg (from Star Trek) some day.
Nightfox
Andeddu wrote to Ogg <=-
Re: Neuralink
By: Ogg to Andeddu on Mon Aug 10 2020 08:20 am
Non-invasive + surgical sound like an oxymoron. The wires are intended to pierce certain areas deep in the brain.
From a London (CNN Business) 2019/07/17 article:
"the devices can be used by those seeking a memory boost or by stroke victims, cancer patients, quadriplegics or others with congenital
defects."
Ya.. that sounds good.
"The chips will connect to an iPhone app that the user can control."
That DOESN'T sound too good. That's just another thing that is sure to be exploited from the outside.
Sounds a little crazy, but this appears to be the beginning the trans- humanist experience.
So far, it doesn't sound much different than a heart pace-maker implant,
or the implants for diabetes patients to report blood sugar and control automatic insulin injections. Neurolink is being done in the guise of helping handicapped persons. It wouldn't be too long before it is done
for entertainment and military purposes.
The neuralace electrodes are inserted through the skull & stitched into the patient's brain by a robot. The implanted threads are so thin that
no damage is caused to the brain during the procedure.
The procedure is, of course, being sold as a benefit to mankind as an ingenius method of overcoming disabilities. Imagine prostetic
appendages controlled via Neuralink by the power of the mind, etc...
In true Musk style, he has hinted that Neuralink isn't just for those
who are disadvantaged by disability. He clearly states that everyone in the future will have the procedure carried out so that they too can achieve a "symbiosis with artificial intelligence."
If I were a marketing dude I would sell it like this:
* No need for more phones. Use your iMplant to place phone calls and send instant iMessages.
* Use the power of iComputing by linking your brain to iBanana edge servers. Let the computer do math for you. Hell, let the comptuer THINK for you!
* Download films directly into your brain. Wtahc them without a screen!
etc etc etc
But the question is, why? Why would we want to merge with machines? I tend to think of sci-fi things like The Matrix, the Borg from Star Trek, etc..
Nightfox
If I were a marketing dude I would sell it like this:
* No need for more phones. Use your iMplant to place phone calls and send instant iMessages.
* Use the power of iComputing by linking your brain to iBanana edge servers. Let the computer do math for you. Hell, let the comptuer THINK for you!
* Download films directly into your brain. Wtahc them without a screen!
etc etc etc
I know there could be benefits like that, but I think there are also risks with that too (physical and I suppose ethical risks too). With enhanced abilities, I'd be concerned that some poeple would start to consider such implants so useful that it could lead to situations where employers might only want to hire people who have such implants (due to their enhanced abilities and enhanced work productivity), etc., etc.. And then even if someone wanted to get such an implant, they might not be able to afford it, etc.. Sort of a class division in society. And possibly other problems too.. And I know it probably sounds silly, but it seems like a slippery slope where we might end up like the Borg (from Star Trek) some day.
How do you know that could never be proven or disproven? If it happened to be a simulation as in the Matrix movies, then I'd certainly think it would be possible to prove it. Theoretical physicists have already theorized about the existence of multiple universes, and occasionally I see an article appear about a reason they think the parallel universe theory is compelling. Perhaps we'll eventually find the answer to that.
Nightfox
I read in some manifesto a few months ago how technology has always been poised to be something of a savior of the current ails of society and only later then we'd find out its banes and how oftentimes those bring more ails than the ones that we've solved.
Man, isn't that scary? I used to think when I was growing up that it would be cool to be a cyborg with all those computer stuff basically in one with me. But now that I'm quite aware of the implications of technology use socially, among others, I've basically done a 180 and consider any step towards "the symbiosis of man and machine" to be an ultimately debilitating one.
The procedure is no more invasive than getting a tattoo... and looks very similar in action. Musk talks as if this is going to happen imminently howev we don't have holographic terminals yet like in Minority Report or even advanced wearables such as glasses that have the power & application of a PC think he's on the right track with where humanity is headed, but I'd be surprised if I saw us merge with AI in my lifetime (and I am in my mid-thirties). This is stuff for around 2070-80... yes, we'll see biotic lim controlled by the human mind, x-ray vision for people with augmented eyes... etc, but we won't see a true human/AI symbiosis until after I'm in a wooden box.
Musk says that in order to carry out the highly technical work of the future the jobs which haven't been automated... humans are going to have to be augmented and part of the network. Those who remain pure are going to be lef behind.
Re: Neuralink
By: Underminer to Nightfox on Wed Aug 12 2020 05:48 pm
abilities, I'd be concerned that some poeple would start to consider
such implants so useful that it could lead to situations where
employers might only want to hire people who have such implants (due
to their enhanced abilities and enhanced work productivity), etc.,
etc.. And then even if
There's already several industries that expect you to provide your own tools, or have certain technology at your disposal.
It seems to me that owning your own tools is different from having devices r
As far as providing your own tools etc., that can be a different issue. I'v uld provide its own vehicles for company use - And some actually do.
Nightfox
Andeddu wrote to Nightfox <=-
Re: Neuralink
By: Nightfox to Andeddu on Wed Aug 12 2020 08:45 am
But the question is, why? Why would we want to merge with machines? I tend to think of sci-fi things like The Matrix, the Borg from Star Trek, etc..
I think in the short term it'll be sold as a kind of quality of
life upgrade for human beings. Imagine having the ability to
access data as quickly as a computer, or having the memory of an
autistic savant. Humans will no longer be hindered by the brain's inability to learn anything quickly... imagine learning a new
language in a day. That's the kind of potential that Musk speaks
of when he talks of a a brain-machine interface. Even an a below
average intellect could be elevated to the standards of geniuses
today.
Andeddu wrote to Atroxi <=-
Ultimately, the idea of transhumanism is to create mankind 2.0. I
think we'll still look human, it's just that much of our thinking
will be delegated to AI... which will allow us to become more
egalitarian in nature, as each human will possess a similar set
of characteristics to every other human.
On 08-13-20 19:24, Andeddu wrote to Atroxi <=-
Ultimately, the idea of transhumanism is to create mankind 2.0. I think we'll still look human, it's just that much of our thinking will be delegated to AI... which will allow us to become more egalitarian in nature, as each human will possess a similar set of characteristics to every other human.
On 08-13-20 21:04, Gamgee wrote to Andeddu <=-
of when he talks of a a brain-machine interface. Even an a below
average intellect could be elevated to the standards of geniuses
today.
And you think that is a Good Thing...?
Ultimately, the idea of transhumanism is to create mankind 2.0. I
think we'll still look human, it's just that much of our thinking will
be delegated to AI... which will allow us to become more egalitarian
in nature, as each human will possess a similar set of characteristics
to every other human.
Ultimately, the idea of transhumanism is to create mankind 2.0. I
think we'll still look human, it's just that much of our thinking
will be delegated to AI... which will allow us to become more
egalitarian in nature, as each human will possess a similar set of
characteristics to every other human.
Hmm, do we really want that? That actually sounds like a rather bland outcome. :/
I hope there are enough smart people left to fight (to the death)
to prevent such a thing. Screw that garbage.
egalitarian in nature, as each human will possess a similar set ofHmm, do we really want that? That actually sounds like a rather bland outcome. :/
characteristics to every other human.
Musk has already stated that those who choose to reject the implants will become the future proletariat. There will be a mechanical apartheid where th with the enhancements, thus providing enhanced productivity, will have the m desireable jobs in society. They'll be faster, stronger and better than the rest of the population. So yes, it looks like it will create a slippery slop as the have-nots will have to obtain such "upgrades" to compete with their peers, even if it's against their moral judgement.
Re: Neuralink
By: Arelor to Nightfox on Wed Aug 12 2020 03:20 pm
If I were a marketing dude I would sell it like this:
* No need for more phones. Use your iMplant to place phone calls and send instant iMessages.
* Use the power of iComputing by linking your brain to iBanana edge servers. Let the computer do math for you. Hell, let
comptuer THINK for you!
* Download films directly into your brain. Wtahc them without a screen!
etc etc etc
I recall seeing a TEDx a while ago where there was a woman speaking positively about a human-machine interface and she said
something along the lines of AI, through machine learning, doing more and more of the thinking for you up until you don't ha
to think at all. The learning algorithim is able to adapt to your behaviour so much so that you can live your life on
auto-pilot without ever having to think for yourself. I thought it sounded quite sinister.
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: Vk3jed to Andeddu on Fri Aug 14 2020 01:54 pm
Ultimately, the idea of transhumanism is to create mankind 2.0. I
think we'll still look human, it's just that much of our thinking
will be delegated to AI... which will allow us to become more
egalitarian in nature, as each human will possess a similar set of
characteristics to every other human.
Hmm, do we really want that? That actually sounds like a rather bland outcome. :/
I agree. I don't think we'd want to "outsource" our thinking to machines. I think we'd become too dependent on machines; I
think we should still be able to think for ourselves. That's what we have a brain for (and people who are religiously-incli
would probably say God gave us the gift of a brain to be able to think, and it would be a shame to waste it).
Nightfox
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: Vk3jed to Andeddu on Fri Aug 14 2020 01:54 pm
egalitarian in nature, as each human will possess a similar set ofHmm, do we really want that? That actually sounds like a rather bland outcome. :/
characteristics to every other human.
I mean, it's about the only way to truly achieve equality. As much as I fully believe everyone has an equal right to a certa
quality of life, and we should all be considered equally worthy of dignity, opportunities for happiness, etc. - let's face i
humans are not all equal.
On 08-13-20 22:07, Nightfox wrote to Vk3jed <=-
Hmm, do we really want that? That actually sounds like a rather bland outcome. :/
I agree. I don't think we'd want to "outsource" our thinking to
machines. I think we'd become too dependent on machines; I think we should still be able to think for ourselves. That's what we have a
brain for (and people who are religiously-inclined would probably say
God gave us the gift of a brain to be able to think, and it would be a shame to waste it).
On 08-13-20 23:32, Underminer wrote to Vk3jed <=-
Hmm, do we really want that? That actually sounds like a rather bland outcome. :/
I mean, it's about the only way to truly achieve equality. As much as I
fully believe everyone has an equal right to a certain quality of life, and we should all be considered equally worthy of dignity,
opportunities for happiness, etc. - let's face it, humans are not all equal. ---
Underminer wrote to Gamgee <=-
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: Gamgee to Andeddu on Thu Aug 13 2020 09:07 pm
I hope there are enough smart people left to fight (to the death)
to prevent such a thing. Screw that garbage.
You prefer to deal with morons on a daily basis?
Vk3jed wrote to Gamgee <=-
On 08-13-20 21:04, Gamgee wrote to Andeddu <=-
of when he talks of a a brain-machine interface. Even an a below
average intellect could be elevated to the standards of geniuses
today.
And you think that is a Good Thing...?
Intellect is one thing, but there's something else needed to
temper that intellect that I doubt technology can give us -
wisdom.
There's an Outer Limits episode about a guy who can't get a netowrk implant be cause he experienced a head injury early in life, and since he can oly acquire knowledge is through reading, he gets a menial job mopping floors at a library that is scanning the last remainder of it's books into the mainframe everyone else is connected through. He begins to notice people occasionally "freeze" for no apparent reason, or stutter, and from what he has been reading in the main computer's manual, that is a sign of an impending disaster. He learns he cannot tell anyone, because anything one person knows, the system will know as well as everyone on the system. So has to be clever in reaching a terminal to run the shutdown codes. When he can't reach a terminal, he plans to show the page with the shutdown code on it to somebody. The book gets destroyed, however his true gift was a photographic m emory, and tricks his girlfriend into reading the code from a strip of paper.
The system grinds to a halt, then suddenly he becomes real important because he's the only person who can teach others how to read.
Not in the least. Just pointing out that for those who claim equality is the goal, but actually equalizing people is bad or boring that there's a logical disconnect happening ;)
When people talk about equality, I've always thought it meant equal rights, not necessarily equal traits. Everyone should have an equal right to have the same opportunities in life, occupy the same spaces, etc.. I think that's what human equality is all about. Not necessarily making everyone the same.
perfect example is how so many use the calculator in their phone for math d of doing the math in their head... does this mean that calculators are t inning of the end? ;)
I think in the short term it'll be sold as a kind of quality of life upgrade for human beings. Imagine having the ability to access data as quickly as a computer, or having the memory of an autistic savant.
Humans will no longer be hindered by the brain's inability to learn anything quickly... imagine learning a new language in a day. That's
the kind of potential that Musk speaks of when he talks of a a brain- machine interface. Even an a below average intellect could be elevated
to the standards of geniuses today.
Musk says that in order to carry out the highly technical work of the future; the jobs which haven't been automated... humans are going to
have to be augmented and part of the network. Those who remain pure
are going to be left behind.
Who's is to say that the electronics would be immmune to interception
and/ or trigger seizures or fits.
In terms of an error or accidental situation causing problems, that's
what clinical testing is for. If you mean that you're concerned about hackers, I'm really not - the average joe can already make a person go "off-line" with common sporting equipment. -+-
Musk is off with the fairies most of the time.
Haven't we already run this experiment? We have connected the world to the Internet. We can already see what actually happens when people have instant access to masses of produced information. People don't become smarter and more enlightened with the new information.
This reminds me of the SyFy series Continuum from a few years back, where the main character was a police officer from the 2060's accidentally sent back in time. She had neural implants to interface with displays injected into her eyes, and they would also communicate with the technology integrated into her uniform. The suit acted as armor and camoflage, and also functioned as crime scene evidence gathering and forensics. Her side arm was also tied to her so she not only be the only person to fire it, but also choose it's power
settings on the fly.
I think in the short term it'll be sold as a kind of quality of
life upgrade for human beings. Imagine having the ability to
access data as quickly as a computer, or having the memory of an autistic savant. Humans will no longer be hindered by the brain's inability to learn anything quickly... imagine learning a new
language in a day. That's the kind of potential that Musk speaks
of when he talks of a a brain-machine interface. Even an a below average intellect could be elevated to the standards of geniuses
today.
And you think that is a Good Thing...?
Hmm, do we really want that? That actually sounds like a rather bland outcome. :/
Does the ultimate idea of transhumanism include removing human will? It seems to me that "idea" is missing the little detail that humans will want to retain their own will. To engineer people "to become more egalitarian" via technology is simply not natural or not possible - or does
transhumanism include injecting people with drugs to make them submit to being easily controlled?
When people talk about equality, I've always thought it meant equal rights, not necessarily equal traits. Everyone should have an equal right to have the same opportunities in life, occupy the same spaces, etc.. I think that's what human equality is all about. Not necessarily making everyone the same.
I think the idea is that we'll lose our individualism to become a very efficient collective. All those sci-fi movies you've watched where humanity is at peace, it's because we've sacrificed our individual beliefs and identitiy to become a unified collective. I believe this may be the case by the end of the century.
At its core, transhumanism is humanity's journey from organic beings into creatures of silicon. Our transformation will be complete once consciousness can be digitised... at which point we can then fully shed our biological form.
Things like that are why I don't really think it's a good idea to become too a limit to how far we should let it go into our lives. I think we have done endent on technology.
Nightfox
Re: Neuralink
By: Moondog to Andeddu on Fri Aug 14 2020 02:10 am
There's an Outer Limits episode about a guy who can't get a netowrk implant be cause he experienced a head injury early in life, and since he can oly acquire
knowledge is through reading, he gets a menial job mopping floors at a library that is scanning the last remainder of it's books into the mainframe everyone else
connected through. He begins to notice people occasionally "freeze" for no apparent reason, or stutter, and from what he has been reading in the main computer's
manual, that is a sign of an impending disaster. He learns he cannot tell anyone, because anything one person knows, the system will know as well as everyone on
system. So has to be clever in reaching a terminal to run the shutdown codes. When he can't reach a terminal, he plans to show the page with the shutdown code on
to somebody. The book gets destroyed, however his true gift was a photographic m emory, and tricks his girlfriend into reading the code from a strip of paper.
The system grinds to a halt, then suddenly he becomes real important because he's the only person who can teach others how to read.
Things like that are why I don't really think it's a good idea to become too dependent on technology. It probably sounds a bit ironic coming from me since I'm a
software engineer and I like playing with computers & gadgets & things, but I think there's a limit to how far we should let it go into our lives. I think we have do
great things with computers, but I think we should also still be fairly self-reliant if we need to. Something as simple as the power going out could cripple us if we
too dependent on technology.
Nightfox
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: Ogg to All on Fri Aug 14 2020 12:22 am
Does the ultimate idea of transhumanism include removing human will? It seems to me that "idea" is missing the little detail that humans will want to retain their
own will. To engineer people "to become more egalitarian" via technology is simply not natural or not possible - or does
transhumanism include injecting people with drugs to make them submit to being easily controlled?
Free will creates creatures that can go either wrong or right. As C.S. Lewis said "if a thing is free to be good, it can also be free to be bad - and free will is wha
has made evil possible."
Is a "world of autometa, of creatures that work like machines" a world worth creating? I think technocrats like Musk believe so. It's the only way mankind, as a speci
will ever be able to move in one direction.
At its core, transhumanism is humanity's journey from organic beings into creatures of silicon. Our transformation will be complete once consciousness can be
digitised... at which point we can then fully shed our biological form.
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: Ogg to Underminer on Fri Aug 14 2020 09:47 pm
concerned about hackers, I'm really not - the average joe canDo you mean like a tin-foil lined helmet? :)
already make a person go "off-line" with common sporting equipment.
-+-
Would you want to wear that common sporting equipment until the network is safe? You probably would have to take if off for a shower or a haircut.
No, I don't mean you can protect yourself against hackers with sporting goods if you get augmented - I mean something as simple as a baseball bat or golf club can tak
the present modern un-augmented human "off-line" with less effort than a hacker would have to put in.
Similarly people are concerned about whether hackers might be able to make a self driving car veer into the wrong lane or similar - well go throw some traffic cones
around right now that direct people into the oncoming lane and I'm pretty sure you'll accomplish the same thing with meat based drivers.
There are absolutely concerns about upcoming technology, but none of it makes it appreciably easier to do bad things to someone on an individual level. We're already
pretty fragile and easy to "hack"
Imagine how life would change if a solar flare acted as an EMP and fried the majority of electronics on Earth. Even some of the simplest items have some sort of solid state regulator or components that may not survive such a hit. Modrn batteries have solid state ICS to help in charging or protecting it's cells from over charging.
There has been a debate raging for decades on whether "equality" means equal access to opportunities or forcing equal outcomes.
WHERE is this data going to come from? The internet?
What happens if the servers get corrupted with false information, or if
they go down?
What happens when the electric grid goes down?
Dependency on simple point of sale systems and processing a payment are a problem when the electric grid goes down, even for just a few minutes.
The high-technology of neural implants will be useless when someone pulls the plug, literally.
The "network" can fail. I posit that those who are "pure" (no implants) could be highly desirable to intercede (and thus valuable) to fix or override a problem.
Our bodies are not meant to be deeply augmented with technology like the fictional writers depict. We have to take anti-rejection drugs and blood thinners to counteract the body's natural detendency to eliminate what it perceives to be an invasion.
AND, the tech/body interface is highly prone to infection. Just ask
people who've had feeding tubes connected to their stomach.
What movies? I'm only really thinking the Borg from Star Trek here.. And why would we want to lose our individualism and become a collective?
I think we have a ways to go before we fully understand if human-made machines with AI are (or can be) really alive and have sentience or not.. But I'm still wondering why we'd want to do that.
No, I don't mean you can protect yourself against hackers with sporting goods if you get augmented - I mean something as simple as a baseball bat or golf club can take the present modern un-augmented human "off-line" with less effort than a hacker would have to put in.
We don't understand the mind well enough to know if this well work, and even if we could increase rote capabilities, would it make us more intelligent?
I think technophiles take a very limited, and myopic view of what intelligence is, and what mental abilities we need in order to create a great civilisation.
Free will creates creatures that can go either wrong or right. As C.S. Lewis said "if a thing is free to be good, it can also be free to be bad - and free will is wha
has made evil possible."
Is a "world of autometa, of creatures that work like machines" a world worth creating? I think technocrats like Musk believe so. It's the only way mankind, as a speciFree will makes evil possible, but also makes good possible.
will ever be able to move in one direction.
Claiming that surrendering free will in order to achieve peace is a worthwhile price is like claiming that bending knee to a maniacal tyrant is a worthwhile price. Sure,
there would have not been a WWII if everybody had bent knee to Hitler. There would have been a decade of genetic cleansing and then everybody would have lived in peace
under his boot.
Andeddu wrote to Gamgee <=-
I think in the short term it'll be sold as a kind of quality of
life upgrade for human beings. Imagine having the ability to
access data as quickly as a computer, or having the memory of an autistic savant. Humans will no longer be hindered by the brain's inability to learn anything quickly... imagine learning a new
language in a day. That's the kind of potential that Musk speaks
of when he talks of a a brain-machine interface. Even an a below average intellect could be elevated to the standards of geniuses
today.
And you think that is a Good Thing...?
It's good in the sense that it'll improve our chances of one day
becoming a spacefaring species, bad in the sense that we'll lose
our humanity.
Nightfox wrote to Andeddu <=-
I think the idea is that we'll lose our individualism to become a very efficient collective. All those sci-fi movies you've watched where humanity is at peace, it's because we've sacrificed our individual beliefs and identitiy to become a unified collective. I believe this may be the case by the end of the century.
What movies? I'm only really thinking the Borg from Star Trek
here.. And why would we want to lose our individualism and
become a collective?
What movies? I'm only really thinking the Borg from Star Trek here..
And why would we want to lose our individualism and become a
collective?
Don't the humans in Star Trek belong to the United Federation which Earth, as a nationless planet ruled by a World Government, is a part of? It's the same in films and shows like Serenity, Firefly and Starship Troopers, where Earth is depicted as a United Federation. There are many other examples of humanity acting as a collective but they elude me right now.
I think we have a ways to go before we fully understand if human-made
machines with AI are (or can be) really alive and have sentience or
not.. But I'm still wondering why we'd want to do that.
"I think therefore I am" - Descartes
Any creature capable of any form of thought necessarily exists, and I believe this extends to silicon based beings as well.
Yes, we are going to be hooked up to some kind of internet with the intention of us, as humans, joining a hivemind. I am sure there will be failsafes, as this kind of development won't happen until the end of the century... if everything shutdown, I guess we'd just become mere humans again...
Imagine relying on a computer to do all of your low-level processing, such as structuring a sentence, and then being completely shut-off from the network after it goes offline. I think people would struggle to communicate with each other thereafter. We'd be like little babies all over again, unable to articulate anything until the network's brought back online.
Speaking of which, I recomend you all to watch the Upgrade film. It is about a quadraplejic who gets inserted cyborg implants in order to walk again and begins a crusade to find the bastards that sent him to the wheelchair in the first place. Heavily related to the matter at hand.
Andeddu wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Sat Aug 15 2020 05:10 pm
We don't understand the mind well enough to know if this well work, and even if we could increase rote capabilities, would it make us more intelligent?
I think technophiles take a very limited, and myopic view of what intelligence is, and what mental abilities we need in order to create a great civilisation.
The idea that we're going to improve the intellectual capabilities of individual humans via implants is theory only. A low-level symbiosis is possible, however. Experiments show that we can move electronics with
the mind alone with patients able to move individual fingers on a
robotic hand, and drink water from a cup, etc... same with people who
are able to walk with advanced prostetic legs. These technologies will improve over my lifetime and will become superior to our own biological limbs in the not too distant future. Humans relying on AI to make them smarter is a long way away, I doubt we'll ever live to see it. I do
think we WILL obtain implants which allow us to interact with other electornics with our mind, doing away with devices such as keyboards, etc...
Arelor wrote to Andeddu <=-s
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: Andeddu to Ogg on Sat Aug 15 2020 02:12 am
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: Ogg to All on Fri Aug 14 2020 12:22 am
Does the ultimate idea of transhumanism include removing human will? It
eems to me that "idea" is missing the little detail that humans willb
want to retain their
own will. To engineer people "to become more egalitarian" via technologyis simply not natural or not possible - or does
transhumanism include injecting people with drugs to make them submit to
eing easily controlled?cre
Free will creates creatures that can go either wrong or right. As C.S. Lewis
said "if a thing is free to be good, it can also be free to be bad -
and free will is wha
has made evil possible."
Is a "world of autometa, of creatures that work like machines" a world worth
creating? I think technocrats like Musk believe so. It's the only way mankind, as a speci
will ever be able to move in one direction.
At its core, transhumanism is humanity's journey from organic beings into
atures of silicon. Our transformation will be complete once
consciousness can be
digitised... at which point we can then fully shed our biological form.
Free will makes evil possible, but also makes good possible.
Claiming that surrendering free will in order to achieve peace is a worthwhile price is like claiming that bending knee to a maniacal
tyrant is a worthwhile price. Sure, there would have not been a WWII if everybody had bent knee to Hitler. There would have been a decade of genetic cleansing and then everybody would have lived in peace under
his boot.
Arelor wrote to Andeddu <=-
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: Andeddu to Arelor on Sat Aug 15 2020 06:29 pm
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: Arelor to Andeddu on Sat Aug 15 2020 04:21 am
Free will creates creatures that can go either wrong or right. As C.S. Lewis said "if a thing is free to be good, it can also be free to be b - and free will is wha
has made evil possible."
Is a "world of autometa, of creatures that work like machines" a world worth creating? I think technocrats like Musk believe so. It's the onl way mankind, as a speciFree will makes evil possible, but also makes good possible.
will ever be able to move in one direction.
Claiming that surrendering free will in order to achieve peace is a worthwhile price is like claiming that bending knee to a maniacal tyrant a worthwhile price. Sure,
there would have not been a WWII if everybody had bent knee to Hitler. Th would have been a decade of genetic cleansing and then everybody would ha lived in peace
under his boot.
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love, or joy or goodness.
I have noticed that the world depicted in BNW, where free will is no more, i world without suffering. I have an intense belief that a stale, mechanical world absent of suffering, is preferable to one with free will and all the g (and evil) that comes packaged with it.
Honestly, your world is not worth living in and is worth fending off
with live ammo.
Andeddu wrote to Hatton <=-
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: Hatton to Nightfox on Fri Aug 14 2020 11:24 pm
There has been a debate raging for decades on whether "equality" means equal access to opportunities or forcing equal outcomes.
By forcing equal outcomes, you end up with communism. We are all
different and we all have our strengths and weaknesses, and some people have more strengths and others have more weaknesses. It's just like in
the animal kingdom.
Claiming that surrendering free will in order to achieve peace is aThere is no point being alive, if you cannot exercise your own will over yourself. You would in such a situation, not be a human being, but a domesticated animal.
worthwhile price is like claiming that bending knee to a maniacal
tyrant is a worthwhile price. Sure, there would have not been a WWII
Never heard of it. But I like the wiki article describing it like a Death Wish meets Billion Dollar Man mashup. One comment was "Elon Musk's Neuralink worst case scenario." LOL
with free will and all the g (and evil) that comes packaged with it.
Honestly, your world is not worth living in and is worth fending off
with live ammo.
I'll help fend it off with you. Such a person is no longer a human being, but a domestic animal, cattle. Suffering is part of life, and part of what makes us what we are. Embrace life in its totality.
... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: Ogg to Andeddu on Fri Aug 14 2020 09:34 pm
The "network" can fail. I posit that those who are "pure" (no implants) could be highly desirable to intercede (and thus valuable) to fix or override a problem.
Quite possible. There may be a fair number of those who are opposed to impla all together and view it as the "mark of the devil" as the human body (perfection, in other words) is not to be desecrated in such a fashion.
If network instability is such a thing in circa 2100, I can see such a plan floundering. The network needs to be perfect and it needs to be maintained a all times, otherwise the entire system is vulnerable to attack.
Imagine relying on a computer to do all of your low-level processing, such a structuring a sentence, and then being completely shut-off from the network after it goes offline. I think people would struggle to communicate with eac other thereafter. We'd be like little babies all over again, unable to articulate anything until the network's brought back online.
You have to remember that all this is relatively new. It wasn't long ago we people with rubber hands and peg-legs. Technology has come a long way in onl two decades, imagine where we will be 80 years from now. I agree that we wil have to be on some kind of drug to prevent the body from rejecting our new limbs/implants... whichever big pharma firm secures that patent will become very powerful indeed.
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: Nightfox to Andeddu on Fri Aug 14 2020 09:48 pm
What movies? I'm only really thinking the Borg from Star Trek here.. An why would we want to lose our individualism and become a collective?
Don't the humans in Star Trek belong to the United Federation which Earth, a nationless planet ruled by a World Government, is a part of? It's the same i films and shows like Serenity, Firefly and Starship Troopers, where Earth is depicted as a United Federation. There are many other examples of humanity acting as a collective but they elude me right now.
The point I am trying to make is that by being individuals with completely seperate belief structures, we cannot progress as a civilisation. Everybody to be on the same page and everybody has to walk in the same direction. This can be forced via a dictitorial World Government, brain washing or by mergin us with a machine-interface to create a hive-mind.
"I think therefore I am" - Descartes
Any creature capable of any form of thought necessarily exists, and I believ this extends to silicon based beings as well.
Man has been playing God for a while now. I believe evolution is now in OUR hands, not necesarily in the hands of nature. Imagine a cybernetic species capable of bypassing the development stage of "baby". Babies never discovere anything important, they've never contributed anything... think of all the resources consumed over 16 years of developmental life where we, as fleshy organic humans, produce almost nothing of tangible importance. If we can digitise consciousness, we can create fully grown bodies implanted with consciousness which, as part of a hive-mind, are as clever and as knowledgab (as they take their first breath) as any other member of their species.
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: Arelor to Andeddu on Sat Aug 15 2020 04:21 am
Free will creates creatures that can go either wrong or right. As C.S. Lewis said "if a thing is free to be good, it can also be free to be b - and free will is wha
has made evil possible."
Is a "world of autometa, of creatures that work like machines" a world worth creating? I think technocrats like Musk believe so. It's the onl way mankind, as a speciFree will makes evil possible, but also makes good possible.
will ever be able to move in one direction.
Claiming that surrendering free will in order to achieve peace is a worthwhile price is like claiming that bending knee to a maniacal tyrant a worthwhile price. Sure,
there would have not been a WWII if everybody had bent knee to Hitler. Th would have been a decade of genetic cleansing and then everybody would ha lived in peace
under his boot.
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love, or joy or goodness.
I have noticed that the world depicted in BNW, where free will is no more, i world without suffering. I have an intense belief that a stale, mechanical world absent of suffering, is preferable to one with free will and all the g (and evil) that comes packaged with it.
Arelor wrote to Andeddu <=-
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: Andeddu to Arelor on Sat Aug 15 2020 06:29 pm
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: Arelor to Andeddu on Sat Aug 15 2020 04:21 am
Free will creates creatures that can go either wrong or right. As C Lewis said "if a thing is free to be good, it can also be free to b - and free will is wha
has made evil possible."
Is a "world of autometa, of creatures that work like machines" a wo worth creating? I think technocrats like Musk believe so. It's the way mankind, as a speciFree will makes evil possible, but also makes good possible.
will ever be able to move in one direction.
Claiming that surrendering free will in order to achieve peace is a worthwhile price is like claiming that bending knee to a maniacal tyra a worthwhile price. Sure,
there would have not been a WWII if everybody had bent knee to Hitler. would have been a decade of genetic cleansing and then everybody would lived in peace
under his boot.
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that mak possible any love, or joy or goodness.
I have noticed that the world depicted in BNW, where free will is no more world without suffering. I have an intense belief that a stale, mechanica world absent of suffering, is preferable to one with free will and all th (and evil) that comes packaged with it.
Honestly, your world is not worth living in and is worth fending off with live ammo.
I'll help fend it off with you. Such a person is no longer a human being, b a domestic animal, cattle. Suffering is part of life, and part of what make us what we are. Embrace life in its totality.
... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: Dennisk to Arelor on Sun Aug 16 2020 12:18 pm
Claiming that surrendering free will in order to achieve peace is aThere is no point being alive, if you cannot exercise your own will ove yourself. You would in such a situation, not be a human being, but a domesticated animal.
worthwhile price is like claiming that bending knee to a maniacal
tyrant is a worthwhile price. Sure, there would have not been a WWII
There's a strong case to be made that free will doesn't actually exist and i mostly illusory. That would make most of the argument fairly moot.
Hello Arelor!
** On Friday 14.08.20 - 04:05, arelor wrote to Andeddu:
Speaking of which, I recomend you all to watch the Upgrade film. It is about a quadraplejic who gets inserted cyborg implants in order to
walk again and begins a crusade to find the bastards that sent him to the wheelchair in the first place. Heavily related to the matter at hand.
Never heard of it. But I like the wiki article describing it like a Death Wish meets Billion Dollar Man mashup. One comment was "Elon Musk's Neuralink worst case scenario." LOL
The trailer looks like what I'd expect it to be. They could have imagined the chip to be more futurist though; what looked like a 16-pin chip from
the 80's doesn't sell the concept to me. LOL
The voice talking in his head intrigues me. For the story to progress, I guess they needed something to convince the techophobe that instant intel
is not such a bad thing.
On 08-14-20 07:54, Gamgee wrote to Vk3jed <=-
Intellect is one thing, but there's something else needed to
temper that intellect that I doubt technology can give us -
wisdom.
Exactly, and other things too, like experience and judgement.
On 08-15-20 01:52, Andeddu wrote to Vk3jed <=-
I think the idea is that we'll lose our individualism to become a very efficient collective. All those sci-fi movies you've watched where humanity is at peace, it's because we've sacrificed our individual
beliefs and identitiy to become a unified collective. I believe this
may be the case by the end of the century.
On 08-14-20 17:17, Nightfox wrote to Warpslide <=-
It's still possible for your phone battery to die out and need a
recharge. ;) But I see what you mean. I don't like to always have to
rely on technology though. Sometimes it can be easy to get in the
habit of pulling out your phone calculator for even simple math that
you could do in your head faster than using your phone calculator..
On 08-15-20 01:31, Moondog wrote to Nightfox <=-
Imagine how life would change if a solar flare acted as an EMP and
fried the majority of electronics on Earth. Even some of the simplest items have some sort of solid state regulator or components that may
not survive such a hit. Modrn batteries have solid state ICS to help in charging or protecting it's cells from over charging.
We don't understand the mind well enough to know if this well work,
I think technophiles take a very limited, and myopic view of what
intelligence is, and what mental abilities we need in order to
create a great civilisation.
become superior to our own biological limbs in the not too distant
future. Humans relying on AI to make them smarter is a long wayadvance? Is advancing cognition going to yield positive results, without a good cultural and philosophical basis? There are many "smart" people, but
luxury. When my nephew joined the Army, he had to learn how to address and stamp an envelope. Phones were not allowed in basic until near the end so the only way to talk back and forth was by letter. I was surpised when he said the teachers never went over writing letters or addressing an envelope!
So, after a Carrington type event, we'd have our electronics, but nothing power it with, except batteries and backup generators. And it would take to get the grid fixed.
OK, so then we can agree that it's a Bad Thing.
Very bad. Something to fight against and avoid at all costs.
Yep.
We wouldn't, and we (in the USA) won't.
The Euro-commies want that, though, and are already making
progress in achieving it.
Yes, but those humans don't have any robotic implants. I guess I wasn't quite sure what you meant by "collective". :P
I suppose you could consider our current world governments collectives..
"I think therefore I am" - Descartes
Any creature capable of any form of thought necessarily exists, and I believe this extends to silicon based beings as well.
Simply existing is different from being alive. A computer, smartphone, etc. exists, but it's not considered alive.
Even as we develop smarter and more powerful AI, of course those things exist (as tangible objects or pieces of software), but I'm not sure by what definitions we could consider it alive.
Who is proposing this? I've never actually heard about this as a serious idea, and I'm not sure everyone would be willing to go along with that.
Nightfox
I have an intense belief that you are very wrong.
I also have a strong belief that you should put the crack pipe
down for a while.
But what is intelligence? What aspect of human cognition do we need to advance? Is advancing cognition going to yield positive results, without a good cultural and philosophical basis? There are many "smart" people, but the consequences of their actions are not smart, because even though they are skilled in doing what they do, they have a poor heirarchy of values, have a 'narrow' set of skills, don't understand interrelationships between disparate things, have bad motivations, etc, etc, etc.
This 'enhancement' will lead to a dystopia, because we are ignoring all these other attributes. Intelligence does not mean that people think correctly.
I'll help fend it off with you. Such a person is no longer a human being, but a domestic animal, cattle. Suffering is part of life, and part of what makes us what we are. Embrace life in its totality.
Kids already have trouble relating to other humans without having a phone in their hands.
A couple of years ago on NPR there was a guest on a talk show who analyzed the writing structure and complexity of written correspondence going back to the revolutionary war. There was a correlation between the length of the letters and the time and distance it took to receive them. The language used became less and less formal and colorful as well, because sending letters was becoming more of common practice opposed to a special luxury.
Eugenics, genetic screening, and genetic tweaking before birth may also be necessary to integrate cybernetic implants. In order to get the most out o f the hardware, the person may also require planned alteration leading to standardization and uniformity. Cloning or selective breeding may be the way to resolve issues by random couplings based on love or passion.
I seriously doubt we can have a society where a janitor, an administrator for the government and a neuro surgeon will look upon each other as equals under the guise of the society. One such test of this I have proposed to others is imagine you are a decision maker in the government. Your only child comes
down with a rare disease where the cure is hard to create, and limited supplie s exist. At the same time your child is ill, a janitor who sweeps the floors and scrubs the toilets at the city hall also contracted the disease, and so do es a neuro surgeon. There is enough to treat one person, and dividing it
will result in all three dying. Who gets the treatment? Does the child because of the emotional family connection, the neuro surgeon because his skill set, or the janitor because he is essential for ensuring the health and wellness of others by keeping highly trafficked areas sanitized? They are
all important in to society (assuming the kid is not a whiny brat and will fill an essential role to be determined later.)
Sounds like the end of evolution and individuality. Creativity is stifled because the consensus and "group think" will dismiss or quell any thoughts or ideas that question or may be seen as ridicule of the societal structure. Society will cease to grow or evolve. Society will exist to serve the society.
I have a problem with this on so many levels. Ignoring the obvious distasteful aspect of surrendering individuality, this has some potentially serious consequences. Nature's strength is in its diversity, and that's what allows species to survive and adapt. The more diverse a population is, the more likely that some individuals will survive a catastropht (climate change, habitat change, ecological disaster (e.g. the asteroid that wiped out the dinosaurs).
And today, we are seeing companies, including giants such as Microsoft and IBM hiring neurologically different people, specifically to gain a competitive advantage from that diversity.
Making us all think the same exposes us to unknown threats that a different mind could have picked up in time.
Science fiction also tells stories about how a diverse population is able to tap into that diversity to avoid catastrophe. Numerous episodes in Star Trek Voyager explore this theme.
Is that the kind of thing that needs to be taught in schools though?
I'll help fend it off with you. Such a person is no longer
a human being, but a domestic animal, cattle. Suffering is
part of life, and part of what makes us what we are.
Embrace life in its totality.
We don't suffer much in the West. Most of the World's
population is below the povery line, suffering is a way of
life for them. The ONLY Way to end all conflict (and cleanse
us of the muck of our darkest desires) is to remove free
will.
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: Moondog to Andeddu on Sat Aug 15 2020 11:53 pm
luxury. When my nephew joined the Army, he had to learn how to address stamp an envelope. Phones were not allowed in basic until near the end the only way to talk back and forth was by letter. I was surpised when said the teachers never went over writing letters or addressing an envelope!
Is that the kind of thing that needs to be taught in schools though? I don' remember that ever being taught in schools when I was growing up, and I know how to address and stamp an envelope. I always thought that was just one of those things you can learn easily at home from parents & such. I'm surprise you say your nephew learned that when he joined the Army? He has never had send anything in an envelope in the mail before?
Nightfox
MRO wrote to HusTler <=-
You guys watch and read too much Sci-Fi. Use your brain power to solve real world problems and stop debating futuristic nonense you've read about or saw in a movie. ;-) Do you have any ideas on how to eliminate racism and poverty in the world? Can AI and biological limbs help society with these issues?
motherfucker, i work for a living. i dont care about racism or
poverty. i'm working on myself, like other people need to do.
In Brave New World (along with Nineteen Eighty-Four) love and passion
were viewed as undesireable/illegal. If you love someone, you would
put them above the state... this is why family units were not
permitted, children were brought up exclusively by the state and brain-washed from an early age.
In these books "everybody belonged to everybody else" so, although
there was sex, it was with different partners so that no two people
could become too attached to one another.
I remember my sister & I would always fight over who got to lick the
stamp.
It's weird the things kids fight about...
Is that the kind of thing that needs to be taught in schools though?
I don't remember that ever being taught in schools when I was
growing up, and I know how to address and stamp an envelope. I
always thought that was just one of those things you can learn
easily at home from parents & such.
YES. in school i was taught how to address an envelope. just like i was taught how to draft a letter.
where did you grow up? it seems like you missed out on a lot of stuff in your school system.
Andeddu wrote to Dennisk <=-
I'll help fend it off with you. Such a person is no longer a human being, but a domestic animal, cattle. Suffering is part of life, and part of what makes us what we are. Embrace life in its totality.
We don't suffer much in the West. Most of the World's population
is below the povery line, suffering is a way of life for them.
The ONLY Way to end all conflict (and cleanse us of the muck of
our darkest desires) is to remove free will.
Nightfox wrote to Andeddu <=-
Who is proposing this? I've never actually heard about this as a
serious idea, and I'm not sure everyone would be willing to go along
with that.
It's not a proposition, techonologists present this as a fact... it's what you get when you follow transhumanism to its natural conclusion.
I'm not sure it's a fact that humans will for sure all accept
machine implants.. We don't know what will happen in the future,
and I'm sure a lot of people will be opposed to it.
Andeddu wrote to Gamgee <=-
OK, so then we can agree that it's a Bad Thing.
Very bad. Something to fight against and avoid at all costs.
Yep.
If you think the human body is sacred and we shoudln't taper with
it, unless absolutely necessary... it's a bad thing. I just think
that it'll be normalised in the future and people will happily
pick up all kinds of augmentations to "improve" themselves. We've
already progressed to wearable smart-tech... it'll only be a
matter of time before implants become the norm. When you take
this to its natural conclusion, it's where we are going.
Andeddu wrote to Gamgee <=-
We wouldn't, and we (in the USA) won't.
The Euro-commies want that, though, and are already making
progress in achieving it.
There is some desire in Europe to stifle nations along with
nationalism to maintain the European Union and expand on it.
Andeddu wrote to Gamgee <=-
I have an intense belief that you are very wrong.
I also have a strong belief that you should put the crack pipe
down for a while.
This is a serious discussion academics have been having since the
1930s. Just because you've not come across social engineering, it
doesn't mean that it's never going to happen. If you see
something you disagree with, use your first-amendment right to
argue against it.
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: Moondog to Andeddu on Sat Aug 15 2020 11:53 pm
luxury. When my nephew joined the Army, he had to learn how to address stamp an envelope. Phones were not allowed in basic until near the end the only way to talk back and forth was by letter. I was surpised when said the teachers never went over writing letters or addressing an envelope!
Is that the kind of thing that needs to be taught in schools though? I don' earn easily at home from parents & such. I'm surprised you say your nephew
Nightfox
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: Nightfox to Moondog on Sun Aug 16 2020 09:55 am
Is that the kind of thing that needs to be taught in schools though? I don't remember that ever being taught in schools when I was growing up, and I know how to address and stamp an envelope. I always thought that just one of those things you can learn easily at home from parents & su
YES. in school i was taught how to address an envelope. just like i was tau
where did you grow up? it seems like you missed out on a lot of stuff in you
Star Trek is science fiction, based upon contemporary Western ideals^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
which have been held by a small minority of the human population, for a
tiny fraction of history (these ideals will become outdated soon). It
is just a story. You may as well be using The Cat in the Hat the
determine the future history of humanity, the latter is more realistic
(I've seen a cat wear a hat). ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Free will creates creatures that can go either wrong or right. As C.S.
Lewis said "if a thing is free to be good, it can also be free to be
bad - and free will is what has made evil possible."
Is a "world of autometa, of creatures that work like machines" a world
worth creating? I think technocrats like Musk believe so. It's the only
way mankind, as a species, will ever be able to move in one direction.
At its core, transhumanism is humanity's journey from organic beings
into creatures of silicon. Our transformation will be complete once consciousness can be digitised... at which point we can then fully shed
our biological form.
I've often wondered whether I'd see a North American Union in my lifetime. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Union
There's a strong case to be made that free will doesn't actuallyNo it wouldn't. What you are saying, is that if we have no free will, we must submit to other peoples standards? If we are found to have no free
exist and is mostly illusory. That would make most of the argument
fairly moot. ---
He joined right out of high school, so he never had much in the form of correspence or affairs of his own that came through the mail, and just about everything else he did was through online banking and online bill pay. When I was in high school in the late 80's, there was a class targetted towards the non-college crowd called family living. It taught how to balance a checkbook, create a budget, and how to operate within that budget, and other domestic stuff. I feel that type of course is essential, because some students are ready to leave home so fast after they graduate, they aren't likely to sit down with their parents or their parents are poorly equipped to teach them these skills.
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: Moondog to Andeddu on Sun Aug 16 2020 12:37 am
I seriously doubt we can have a society where a janitor, an administrator for the government and a neuro surgeon will look upon each other as equal under the guise of the society. One such test of this I have proposed to others is imagine you are a decision maker in the government. Your only child comes
down with a rare disease where the cure is hard to create, and limited supplie s exist. At the same time your child is ill, a janitor who sweep the floors and scrubs the toilets at the city hall also contracted the disease, and so do es a neuro surgeon. There is enough to treat one pers and dividing it
will result in all three dying. Who gets the treatment? Does the child because of the emotional family connection, the neuro surgeon because his skill set, or the janitor because he is essential for ensuring the health and wellness of others by keeping highly trafficked areas sanitized? The are
all important in to society (assuming the kid is not a whiny brat and wil fill an essential role to be determined later.)
No one is suggesting they all look upon each other as equals. I think the is with this is that we are talking about different stages of society. The idea that we will merge with AI, is sort of the end-game... the end of humanity a the beginning of a completely new lifeform. If, in a world government, there peace and we live in an egalitarian society... no one is going to be FAR bet off than anyone else, it's just that there will be smaller perks as an administrator, doctor or scientist, rather than a janitor. You may have a slightly larger appartment, a larger TV to watch and tastier food to eat, bu your life and his are going to be comparable.
As long as humans are involved, there will always be nepotism, bribary and corruption... free will breeds self-interest, therefore it doesn't matter if the administrator looks after his own child... as, in his world, the three aren't equal.
I am positive that it's a fact that most (the VAST majority) will
NOT accept machine implants.
"Transhumanism" is a freak/niche idea that only a very few
whack-jobs subscribe to. It's like they wanted to be science
fiction writers, but failed, so came up with this idea to try to
justify their distorted "thinking". It's right there beside the "flat-earthers" on the scale of stupid beliefs.
On 08-16-20 16:33, Warpslide wrote to Vk3jed <=-
@VIA: VERT/NRBBS
On 16 Aug 2020, Vk3jed said the following...
So, after a Carrington type event, we'd have our electronics, but nothing power it with, except batteries and backup generators. And it would take to get the grid fixed.
I remember a TV show from a few years back called Revolution. The
premise was that all electronics stopped working & no one was sure why.
Even batteries and newly generated electricity no longer works.
In this post-apocalyptic governments fall & can no longer maintain
order. Various areas of the U.S are controlled by different militias
and their generals.
The first season was alright, I remember thinking the second season got
a little silly which is why it was never renewed for a third I suppose.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_(TV_series)
On 08-16-20 19:27, Andeddu wrote to Vk3jed <=-
You seem to be talking about biological differences between the races.
My argument was made purely on ideological consensus, as genetric
traits between humans are (I would guess) not particularly deep... technology would overcome genetic/neurological advantages/disadvantages with ease. The diverse population of Star Trek Voyager are diverse in colour/creed but not in ideology. They are individuals who happen to
agree on most things, even the non-humans.
On 08-16-20 18:18, Andeddu wrote to Dennisk <=-
The idea is to make us all the same. Once we all believe in the same thing, and we revere certain societal axioms, human civilisation will
move in a single direction... rather than being disparate parts of a machine constantly tearing away at itself with unecessary conflict.
Don't the humans in Star Trek belong to the United Federation which Earth, as a
nationless planet ruled by a World Government, is a part of? It's the same in films and shows like Serenity, Firefly and Starship Troopers, where Earth is depicted as a United Federation. There are many other examples of humanity acting as a collective but they elude me right now.
Arelor wrote to Gamgee <=-
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: Gamgee to Nightfox on Sun Aug 16 2020 08:06 pm
I am positive that it's a fact that most (the VAST majority) will
NOT accept machine implants.
"Transhumanism" is a freak/niche idea that only a very few
whack-jobs subscribe to. It's like they wanted to be science
fiction writers, but failed, so came up with this idea to try to
justify their distorted "thinking". It's right there beside the "flat-earthers" on the scale of stupid beliefs.
To be honest, I see the appeal of machine implants in certain
cases. Robotic arms, replacement eyes, that sort of thing has a
place. Proper computer implants connected to a network? Not so
much.
You guys watch and read too much Sci-Fi. Use your brain power to solve real world problems and stop debating futuristic nonense you've read about or saw in a movie. ;-) Do you have any ideas on how to eliminate racism and poverty in the world? Can AI and biological limbs help society with these issues?
HusTler
Would you be the first to volunteer to have your free will removed?
But, did you finish the story to the end?
Also, do not forget that BNW (along with 1984) is just a story. Fiction.
It is just one man's imagined world... "What if.." In other words, life does NOT have to be like that. They are not proclamations on ideal societies. Someone who considers themselves "unequal" (and better) would want to be in charge of the masses. How equal is that?
I'm not sure it's a fact that humans will for sure all accept machine implants.. We don't know what will happen in the future, and I'm sure a lot of people will be opposed to it.
Nightfox
Anything that's capable of independent thought is alive. So an AI which is capable of questioning its existence, is alive. Ever watch iRobot or Johnn Those things are alive, man!
I used to love Short Circuit when I was a kid. "Wouldn't. You. Like. To. Be. A. Pepper. Too?"
Haven't seen it in years, I wonder how it holds up in 2020.
I've often wondered whether I'd see a North American Union in my lifetime.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Union
The idea is to make us all the same. Once we all believe in the same thing, and we revere certain societal axioms, human civilisation will move in a single direction... rather than being disparate parts of a machine constantly tearing away at itself with unecessary conflict.
Yes, we will have to rely on some kind of dictator to make this happen, as democracy is not a good model for "getting stuff done". But this would occur naturally should there ever be a world government. In that sense, we could achieve either a utopia, or potentially a dystopia.
God, that sounds awful. The worst, most murderous regimes have this as their goal. Removing those that don't fit in.
Make us the same as whose vision? Which dictator? Mine? Which axioms? Please don't tell me modern ones, I'll vomit!
I think that ideology and culture is to some degree, genetically determined in subtle ways. Perhaps not significantly, but I would be surprised if it wasn't.
Star Trek is science fiction, based upon contemporary Western ideals which have been held by a small minority of the human population, for a tiny fraction of history (these ideals will become outdated soon). It is just a story. You may as well be using The Cat in the Hat the determine the future history of humanity, the latter is more realistic (I've seen a cat wear a hat).
I'm starting to wonder if you're some kind of troll who actually
believes the horseshit you're shoveling. Still not quite certain
if that's it, or if you're just a drug-damaged moron who likes to
hear himself spout off.
Either way, you're now in the loony-bin / whacko category, and
mostly ignored.
Wearable smart-tech is a far cry from neuro-implants. If you
think that's where we're going, you're highly delusional.
LOL! A serious discussion being held by freaks and whackos,
maybe.
Your condescending attitude is starting to piss me off. Of course
I know what social engineering is, you little worm. Go read some
more science fiction and then transpose it into your "reality".
CS Lewis was a wise man. But I think in context he meant that free will
was essential for humanity and not a blemish.
No one is suggesting they all look upon each other as equals. I think the is with this is that we are talking about different stages of society. The idea that we will merge with AI, is sort of the end-game... the end of humanity a the beginning of a completely new lifeform. If, in a world government, there peace and we live in an egalitarian society... no one is going to be FAR bet off than anyone else, it's just that there will be smaller perks as an administrator, doctor or scientist, rather than a janitor. You may have a slightly larger appartment, a larger TV to watch and tastier food to eat, bu your life and his are going to be comparable.
As long as humans are involved, there will always be nepotism, bribary and corruption... free will breeds self-interest, therefore it doesn't matter if the administrator looks after his own child... as, in his world, the three aren't equal.
It seems to me that you are talking about idealized communism now rather than actual hive-minds.
In a hive-mind the doctor and the janitor don't exist. Only the Borg exists. And this is so because if the doctor existed, he would not want to spend the work needed to become a doctor when he can spend the work to work as a mopper and have a similar lifestyle.
But it would change our decision making, wouldn't it? And decisions would be based more on an external force, than an internal drive, right?
You guys watch and read too much Sci-Fi. Use your brain power to solve real world problems and stop debating futuristic nonense you've read about or saw in a movie. ;-) Do you have any ideas on how to eliminate racism and poverty in the world? Can AI and biological limbs help society with these issues?
Greed is a bigger problem than those two.
I am positive that it's a fact that most (the VAST majority) will
NOT accept machine implants.
"Transhumanism" is a freak/niche idea that only a very few
whack-jobs subscribe to. It's like they wanted to be science
fiction writers, but failed, so came up with this idea to try to
justify their distorted "thinking". It's right there beside the "flat-earthers" on the scale of stupid beliefs.
Wearable smart-tech is a far cry from neuro-implants. If you
think that's where we're going, you're highly delusional.
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: Moondog to Nightfox on Sun Aug 16 2020 08:32 pm
He joined right out of high school, so he never had much in the form
of correspence or affairs of his own that came through the mail, and
just about everything else he did was through online banking and
online bill pay. When I was in high school in the late 80's, there
was a class targetted towards the non-college crowd called family
living. It taught how to balance a checkbook, create a budget, and
how to operate within that budget, and other domestic stuff. I feel
that type of course is essential, because some students are ready to
leave home so fast after they graduate, they aren't likely to sit
down with their parents or their parents are poorly equipped to
teach them these skills.
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: Ogg to Andeddu on Sun Aug 16 2020 06:13 pm
Would you be the first to volunteer to have your free will removed?
I don't think it would be that bad. You'd live a life of willful ignorance in a world with no human caused suffering. If it's a world like 1984, then no... because life would be miserable and I would have neither free will nor any rights. If it's the benevolant scientific dictatorship depicted in Aldous Huxley's Brave New World, where people are brain-washed and heavily conditioned at an early age, but live pleasent lives, then yes... sign me up!
up!
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: Warpslide to Andeddu on Sun Aug 16 2020 09:27 pm
Anything that's capable of independent thought is alive. So an AI
which is capable of questioning its existence, is alive. Ever
watch iRobot or Johnn Those things are alive, man!
I used to love Short Circuit when I was a kid. "Wouldn't. You. Like.
To. Be. A. Pepper. Too?"
Haven't seen it in years, I wonder how it holds up in 2020.
Hahaha, that scene always cracked me up as a kid... loved that movie! Hahaha, that scene always cracked me up as a kid... loved that movie!
The series finale could end with the Borg Queen being assembled while ominous music plays and then the screen fades to black & credits come up.
On 08-17-20 15:16, Warpslide wrote to Andeddu <=-
I'd love to see new Star Trek series that focuses on the origins of The Borg.
Star Trek: Collective
Or maybe one about the origins of The Q: Star Trek: Continuum
Jay
... "The Borg?! Sounds Swedish..."
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: HusTler to Dennisk on Sun Aug 16 2020 09:03 am
You guys watch and read too much Sci-Fi. Use your brain power to solve r world problems and stop debating futuristic nonense you've read about or in a movie. ;-) Do you have any ideas on how to eliminate racism and pove in the world? Can AI and biological limbs help society with these issues?
HusTler
Yes... in a resourced based and social engineered society, poverty, racism a all the other ills of the world can be eliminated. No other civilisation in history of man has achieved peace and ended suffering... with technology the is the prospect of making this happen.
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: Warpslide to Andeddu on Mon Aug 17 2020 03:16 pm
The series finale could end with the Borg Queen being assembled while
ominous music plays and then the screen fades to black & credits come
up.
I hate the Borg Queen as a concept. The Borg worked much better when there was no central authority and there was only The Borg, a single entity with a distributed consciousness.
--
"Social engineered society"? That means controlling who we have sex with. No thanks. I enjoy screwing whoever I want, whenever I want. I perfer not having my sex managed thank you very much. Engineered genes? Like dog breeding right?
it's a class called home economics.
you probably took it.
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: Nightfox to Moondog on Sun Aug 16 2020 10:04 pm
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: Moondog to Nightfox on Sun Aug 16 2020 08:32 pm
He joined right out of high school, so he never had much in the form
of correspence or affairs of his own that came through the mail, and
just about everything else he did was through online banking and
online bill pay. When I was in high school in the late 80's, there
was a class targetted towards the non-college crowd called family
living. It taught how to balance a checkbook, create a budget, and
how to operate within that budget, and other domestic stuff. I feel
that type of course is essential, because some students are ready to
leave home so fast after they graduate, they aren't likely to sit
down with their parents or their parents are poorly equipped to
teach them these skills.
it's a class called home economics.
you probably took it.
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: Andeddu to Ogg on Mon Aug 17 2020 10:32 am
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: Ogg to Andeddu on Sun Aug 16 2020 06:13 pm
Would you be the first to volunteer to have your free will removed?
I don't think it would be that bad. You'd live a life of willful ignora in a world with no human caused suffering. If it's a world like 1984, t no... because life would be miserable and I would have neither free wil nor any rights. If it's the benevolant scientific dictatorship depicted Aldous Huxley's Brave New World, where people are brain-washed and heav conditioned at an early age, but live pleasent lives, then yes... sign up!
up!
most people's free will is pretty fucked up as it is. having your free will
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: Warpslide to Andeddu on Mon Aug 17 2020 03:16 pm
The series finale could end with the Borg Queen being assembled while ominous music plays and then the screen fades to black & credits come up.
I hate the Borg Queen as a concept. The Borg worked much better when there w no central authority and there was only The Borg, a single entity with a distributed consciousness.
--
gopher://gopher.operationalsecurity.es
On 08-17-20 15:16, Warpslide wrote to Andeddu <=-
I'd love to see new Star Trek series that focuses on the origins of The Borg.
Star Trek: Collective
Maybe a decent movie would do the trick there. :)
Or maybe one about the origins of The Q: Star Trek: Continuum
Now that would be intriguing!
Jay
"Social engineered society"? That means controlling who we have sex with. N
Andeddu wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Mon Aug 17 2020 11:27 am
The idea is to make us all the same. Once we all believe in the same thing, and we revere certain societal axioms, human civilisation will move in a single direction... rather than being disparate parts of a machine constantly tearing away at itself with unecessary conflict.
Yes, we will have to rely on some kind of dictator to make this happen, as democracy is not a good model for "getting stuff done". But this would occur naturally should there ever be a world government. In that sense, we could achieve either a utopia, or potentially a dystopia.
God, that sounds awful. The worst, most murderous regimes have this as their goal. Removing those that don't fit in.
Make us the same as whose vision? Which dictator? Mine? Which axioms? Please don't tell me modern ones, I'll vomit!
The system we have right now doesn't work. You know that, I know that. This World is imperfect, if only we could wipe away the impurities.
This kind of Utopia would only work under the direction of a kind and benevolant World Dictator. A future of heavy automation and resource allocation, designed to uplift the poorest of those in society is
surely preferable to the corrupt petty squabbling we have in this
present day.
Yes, such as system could be used for evil... Bolshevism in Russia,
Nazi Germany, The Khmer Rogue in Cambodia, for instance... which is why
we need an unshakeable consititution, a constitution that would limit
the authority of any dictator in charge, and lock them into the
framework of a good and humane system of control.
Andeddu wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Mon Aug 17 2020 11:39 am
I think that ideology and culture is to some degree, genetically determined in subtle ways. Perhaps not significantly, but I would be surprised if it wasn't.
Star Trek is science fiction, based upon contemporary Western ideals which have been held by a small minority of the human population, for a tiny fraction of history (these ideals will become outdated soon). It is just a story. You may as well be using The Cat in the Hat the determine the future history of humanity, the latter is more realistic (I've seen a cat wear a hat).
Obviously my thoughts on the future of humanity are heavily influnced
by Western ideals, those ideals are all I know. If our current Western ideals become outdated, what do you think will replace them?
My projections of humanity's future are based on the beliefs of people like Musk, Gates along with those weilding the power in Silicon Valley. Technology WILL play an all encompassing part of our lives, there's no arguing against that. Then again, US-China relations could disintegrate into a nuclear war, killing us all.
Anything can happen!
Underminer wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: Dennisk to Underminer on Mon Aug 17 2020 09:57 pm
But it would change our decision making, wouldn't it? And decisions would be based more on an external force, than an internal drive, right?
Maybe, maybe not. We're already essentially computers. We receive an
input in the form of stimulus or information, and our decision making process is a set of chemical and electrical interactions. Yeah, the
wiring may end up different, but the fundamental process may not change much and be more akin to what would happen now if you had
more/different information available. ---
Underminer
The Undermine BBS - bbs.undermine.ca:423
Moondog wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: Dennisk to HusTler on Mon Aug 17 2020 11:22 am
You guys watch and read too much Sci-Fi. Use your brain power to solve real world problems and stop debating futuristic nonense you've read about or saw in a movie. ;-) Do you have any ideas on how to eliminate racism and poverty in the world? Can AI and biological limbs help society with these issues?
Greed is a bigger problem than those two.
In a way, some of the worst behaviors and conditions are rooted in
basic emoti ons. One of the things hat futurists look at more than politicians and social planners is the concept of culture. Rascism and poverty are products of culture. You can invest loads of money or push for improving education into a depressed area, but things won't change until you change the overall culture these areas created on their own. While I'm not a fna of Oprah Winfrey or any of her cult creations, her girls school in Africa is an attempt to build these girls up into self confident people who are not trapped by their surroundings. There was controversy a few year's back about visitation rights by these girl's parents. The claim was the school was stealing their souls or some
crazy idea like that because they were isolated from the thing their family believed made them who they are. Apparently rape, incest, and liberal amounts of physical and verbal abuse are ingredients they feel their daughters were missing. It's hard to change a culture that does
not want to be changed.
On 08-17-20 23:53, Moondog wrote to Vk3jed <=-
I didn't care for Q either. If this collective was so highly evolved
and self policing, Q would've neith existed or would've never been
allowed to leave the collective. Forming the collective was a means of non-interference through isolation.
Q was a re-hash of Trelane, the Squire of Gothos, except more powerful.
Dennisk wrote to Andeddu <=-
Yes, such as system could be used for evil... Bolshevism in Russia,
Nazi Germany, The Khmer Rogue in Cambodia, for instance... which is why
we need an unshakeable consititution, a constitution that would limit
the authority of any dictator in charge, and lock them into the
framework of a good and humane system of control.
Where has this EVER worked? And where are you going to find a
benevolent dicatator, that won't be unseated, undermined,
removed, killed by the less benevolent?
Where I question these approaches is neurodiversity also means a potential for out of the box ideas, whether in a practical, problem solving sense, or a purely ideological sense. And some of those ideas might be what we need to survive the next calamity (after COVID-19 ;) ).
Collectivist/Humanist/Communist governments tend not to work very well, especially in a vacuum. Even China wouldn't be doing very well without international trade. It's that negotiation from opposition that enables commerce, which enables growth. Without it, things tend to sink to the lowest common denominator. Also, TOS was definitely about commerce with other planets and the Federation was more of a common defense pact,
which allows things to work.
Then your attempt at Historical Materialism is dead on arrival, because nothing like idealised communism has been shown to work beyond extremely low scale.
"Social engineered society"? That means controlling who we have sex with. No thanks. I enjoy screwing whoever I want, whenever I want. I perfer not having my sex managed thank you very much. Engineered genes? Like dog breeding right?
I am not sure whether you are saying that you agree with CS Lewis or not, but he also said, "free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. A world of automata -of creatures that worked like machines- would hardly be worth creating."
Yes... in a resourced based and social engineered society, poverty, racism a all the other ills of the world can be eliminated. No other civilisation in history of man has achieved peace and ended suffering... with technology the is the prospect of making this happen.
That says it will be done, not how it can be done.
Yep, some engineer wants to breed us all into being mindless, passive sheep, and beleives they are so much better than the rest of use they will protect us by breeding out "disagreeable" features rather than engineer a society where the benefits of society reinforce taking responsibility for ourselves.
I'm amazed no one has brought up the scifi film Gattaca yet.
Where has this EVER worked? And where are you going to find a benevolent dicatator, that won't be unseated, undermined, removed, killed by the less benevolent?
I think Musk is disconnected with reality to some degree, as is most of Silicon Valley. These people are the last people I would go to, to get advice on where humanity should go. Why would you think someone who lives in a bubble, would understand how the world works? These are business people, and they have geared their knowledge towards their trade.
What will replace our ideals? I'm not sure, but we can see that populism is a growing force, people are rejecting some ideals. The EU is falling apart, the TPP is dead, people are wanting less and less this future of global hegemony. We saw Brexit, and we will see soon, I think a move away from "diversity" as an ideal. We are halfway there, as this idea now smells of a bad religion and is a source of conflict. We will begin to realise that
The reason that I think these implants are dumb ideas, is because the person making the idea lacks self-awareness and understanding of the human conditions.
Our problems aren't information, knowledge, they are behavioural, and people promote things for self serving interests, INCLUDING ideas such as implants and dictatorships of the benevolent. Everyone who imagines a utopia, imagines one as per THEIR model. So it is automatically oppressive, because it is person X who is imposing THEIR vision on us all. I for example, want to live in a world where different peoples still exist, where nations DO favour their own over others and resist homogenisation. I'm for the powerfull bucking social and moral trends (as long as they don't complete power), for struggle, conflict, antagonism. Maybe, just maybe some people with 'deplorable' views are actually holding views that make our world better, but we are too prejudiced to see it. The existence of that antagonism is good, as long as there is balance.
Development of a human being needs discipline, limits and self-awareness. Our world would be a better place when people learn to control themselves, manage themselves, overcome themselves. A soft life doesn't do that.
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: Arelor to Warpslide on Mon Aug 17 2020 03:44 pm
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: Warpslide to Andeddu on Mon Aug 17 2020 03:16 pm
The series finale could end with the Borg Queen being assembled while
ominous music plays and then the screen fades to black & credits come
up.
I hate the Borg Queen as a concept. The Borg worked much better when th was no central authority and there was only The Borg, a single entity w a distributed consciousness.
--
a hive needs a queen
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: HusTler to Andeddu on Mon Aug 17 2020 06:43 pm
"Social engineered society"? That means controlling who we have sex wit No thanks. I enjoy screwing whoever I want, whenever I want. I perfer n having my sex managed thank you very much. Engineered genes? Like dog breeding right?
i know it might not be as good but in that situation you could give up
rosey palm
Where has this EVER worked? And where are you going to find a benevolent dicatator, that won't be unseated, undermined, removed, killed by the less benevolent?
No, we are not essentially computers. You won't find in our brand and gates or gates, flip-flops, microcode. Our memory works completely different, as does our processing. We don't work in binary, or definite, strict logic. O brain uses a vastly different model, so any comparison which goes into more depth than "electrical signals" is useless. Computers don't understand context, aren't conscious, and cannot think. They don't fall for visual or auditory illusions.
I think when we map how the brain works, we will see that it works using an alien computation model to what our machines do.
Development of a human being needs discipline, limits and self-awareness. O world would be a better place when people learn to control themselves, manag themselves, overcome themselves. A soft life doesn't do that.
On 08-17-20 23:53, Moondog wrote to Vk3jed <=-
I didn't care for Q either. If this collective was so highly evolved and self policing, Q would've neith existed or would've never been allowed to leave the collective. Forming the collective was a means of non-interference through isolation.
Q (as in the most frequent member of the Q Contunum seen on the show) did ha his moments. :)
Q was a re-hash of Trelane, the Squire of Gothos, except more powerful.
I didn't think of mthat, but yes that makes sense.
Dennisk wrote to Andeddu <=-
Yes, such as system could be used for evil... Bolshevism in Russia, Nazi Germany, The Khmer Rogue in Cambodia, for instance... which is why we need an unshakeable consititution, a constitution that would limit the authority of any dictator in charge, and lock them into the framework of a good and humane system of control.
Where has this EVER worked? And where are you going to find a benevolent dicatator, that won't be unseated, undermined,
removed, killed by the less benevolent?
Great point - it has NEVER worked, and never would, for just the
reasons you mention above.
This Andeddu person is seriously delusional. Over the edge, even.
... He does the work of 3 Men...Moe, Larry & Curly
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: MRO to Nightfox on Mon Aug 17 2020 04:54 pm
it's a class called home economics.
you probably took it.
I took a home economics class in 8th grade. How to address an envelope was not something they talked about in that class, but I already knew how to do it by then anyway. Also, the class was an elective; it wasn't a required class.
The main things I remember doing in that class were some basic cooking (I already knew some basic cooking by that time) and sewing a shirt together (I've never done sewing since then, perhaps other than sewing a couple buttons onto some pants, which I probably could have figured out anyway).
No, we are not essentially computers. You won't find in our brand and gates, or gates, flip-flops, microcode. Our memory works completely
Q was a re-hash of Trelane, the Squire of Gothos, except more
powerful.
I didn't care for Q either. If this collective was so highly evolved and self policing, Q would've neith existed or would've never been allowed to leave the collective. Forming the collective was a means of non-interference through isolation.
Q (as in the most frequent member of the Q Contunum seen on the show) did have his moments. :)
Q was a re-hash of Trelane, the Squire of Gothos, except more powerful.
I didn't think of mthat, but yes that makes sense.
Andeddu wrote to Arelor <=-
Then your attempt at Historical Materialism is dead on arrival, because nothing like idealised communism has been shown to work beyond extremely low scale.
The idea would be to create a world similar to that in BNW, a scientific/communistic dictatorship. It is, however, just a book
& I am well aware all Communist regimes begin with good
intentions prior to ending in bloodshed. The road to hell is
paved with good intentions.
Andeddu wrote to Ogg <=-
I am not sure whether you are saying that you agree with CS Lewis or not, but he also said, "free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. A world of automata -of creatures that worked like machines- would hardly be worth creating."
I can see the validity of both sides of the argument.
There's so
much barbarity and cruelty in the world that I would be tempted
to remove man's free will, if only to end the suffering.
Andeddu wrote to Moondog <=-
Yes... in a resourced based and social engineered society, poverty, racism a all the other ills of the world can be eliminated. No other civilisation in history of man has achieved peace and ended suffering... with technology the is the prospect of making this happen.
That says it will be done, not how it can be done.
Through an idological consensus, the less reputable ideas many
individuals harbour could be eliminated.
Diversity in ideas invariably ends in conflict. The idea of "the individual" would have to end, and replaced with ideas of "the collective".
Andeddu wrote to Dennisk <=-
Where has this EVER worked? And where are you going to find a benevolent dicatator, that won't be unseated, undermined, removed, killed by the less benevolent?
It's rare, I admit.
There have been GOOD Roman Emperors, which is
why their civilisation lasted so long. The problem with
dictatorships is that it takes only one bad egg to burn the
entire society to the ground.
On 08-18-20 19:33, Andeddu wrote to Vk3jed <=-
I've never heard of neurodiversity. I am not saying it's not a thing
but I have never come across any studies indicating that people of differnent races think differently. I understand cultural difference, however I think you're suggesting the races think differently even
within the same ideological structures.
On 08-18-20 12:06, Moondog wrote to Vk3jed <=-
Another common them in Trek was overcoming god-like enemies. In some
cases the god manifested itself in the form of a machine, and was
defeated with logic, or it was a being of advanced abilities which
could be confused and defeated by playing with it's emotions. Third category required logic and emotion to spring the trap.
Regardless, the crew comes out winning because they rose to meet the challenge or the enemy under estimated what humanity is capable of.
On 08-18-20 16:17, Underminer wrote to Vk3jed <=-
@VIA: VERT/UNDRMINE
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: Vk3jed to Moondog on Tue Aug 18 2020 09:03 pm
Q was a re-hash of Trelane, the Squire of Gothos, except more
powerful.
There have been arguments made that Trelane was a Q. Maybe even the Q
we know. ---
On 08-18-20 14:26, The Lizard Master wrote to Vk3jed <=-
I love when I beat Q in TNG pinball game. He usally wins though.
Haha in DSP and software defined radio, I and Q have to work together. ;) (wonder if anyone else will get that one ;) ).
You have an extraordinary talent in saying completely opposing
things, all in one paragraph, and thinking that it makes sense to
anyone other than yourself. Extraordinary!
Well, thankfully, you have neither the authority, nor the ability
to do such a thing. Oh, and not enough ammo, either.
Nothing to do with racial differences, these are human differences that are spread throughout different populations. It refers to autism, ADHD, dyslexia, and a number of other neurological differences. These people often have out of the box ways of solving problems, that 90% or more of the population would never have thought, and most of the remaining 10% probably wouldn't have
ither.
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: HusTler to Andeddu on Mon Aug 17 2020 06:43 pm
"Social engineered society"? That means controlling who we have sex with No thanks. I enjoy screwing whoever I want, whenever I want. I perfer not having my sex managed thank you very much. Engineered genes? Like dog breeding right?
Well you wanted a solution to racism, poverty, etc... have you got better id
In this world you can have sex with a single partner on Tuesday and Orgy-Por (group sex) every second Thursday. Not so bad now is it?
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: Ogg to Andeddu on Mon Aug 17 2020 08:40 pm
I am not sure whether you are saying that you agree with CS Lewis or not, but he also said, "free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. world of automata -of creatures that worked like machines- would hardly b worth creating."
I can see the validity of both sides of the argument. There's so much barbar and cruelty in the world that I would be tempted to remove man's free will, only to end the suffering.
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: Moondog to Andeddu on Mon Aug 17 2020 09:34 pm
Yes... in a resourced based and social engineered society, poverty, racism a all the other ills of the world can be eliminated. No other civilisation in history of man has achieved peace and ended suffering with technology the is the prospect of making this happen.
That says it will be done, not how it can be done.
Through an idological consensus, the less reputable ideas many individuals harbour could be eliminated.
Diversity in ideas invariably ends in conflict. The idea of "the individual" would have to end, and replaced with ideas of "the collective".
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: Moondog to HusTler on Tue Aug 18 2020 12:02 am
Yep, some engineer wants to breed us all into being mindless, passive she and beleives they are so much better than the rest of use they will prote us by breeding out "disagreeable" features rather than engineer a society where the benefits of society reinforce taking responsibility for ourselv
I'm amazed no one has brought up the scifi film Gattaca yet.
Gattaca is one of my favourite films, an absolute classic.
Perhaps there's a way to engineer empathy into people. I think there's a distinct lack of it in this day and age. An empathetic person is a good person... we can agree that we don't need any more evil people.
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: Vk3jed to Moondog on Tue Aug 18 2020 09:03 pm
Q was a re-hash of Trelane, the Squire of Gothos, except more
powerful.
There have been arguments made that Trelane was a Q. Maybe even the Q we kno
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: Moondog to MRO on Mon Aug 17 2020 11:25 pm
Home ec and family living were different. Shop class filled up early so had to take home ec in the 8th grade. The bulk of our time was learning how to cook and use the various kitchen appliances otherwise we were learning how to sew and mend clothing. there was some acedemic stuff su as nutrition thrown in, but family living was much more practical for f a high school senior that was not going the college route. I took the college bound block of classes, but heard from friends the teacher cove writing resumes and filling out applications. Sounds like simple stuff, but can be intimidating to someone who has never done it before.
i guess this just shows how fucked up our educational systems were.
in my highschool there werent any 'college route' courses.
I think Trump partly is against the establishmnent, not because he's not part of it, but because of conflict of interest. He does seem to have a different worldview. As for the media, the media are part of an established ruling "elite" (and I use the term "elite" loosely). It was during the 2016 when the mask came off, that even they admitted that there IS an establishment. And there is, you get into power by meeting a particular image, a particular way of thinking, a particular mode of though and a particular ethical stance. You can see this in many parts of society. "Professional" is another euphemism. And that particular class of people are failing to deliver.
Conflict is always in our future. "Only the dead are safe; Only the dead have seen the end of war", said George Santayana.
We are at this stage PRECISELY because the people who want to keep their power (ie, the establishment), utterly failed. The solution is most definately not to keep the status quo, that will only make things work. The riots and division in Europe and problems with migration are due to this idiotic idea of "open borders". Diversity is THE reason we have more and more laws against speech, why there is so much division between us.
Identity politics and "socialism" is the reason for so much division.
It will take some turmoil to set things right, but its too late for any other alternative.
Perhaps, though I worry that a world with no suffering won't last. I'm not saying that people should be made to suffer, but adversity, hardship, struggle does make people better. Wealth and prosperity seems to ruin people. People have banded together in times of trouble, and shared struggle does seem to be able to bring out good in people.
Should we make a live worth living? Absolutely, but we shouldn't think that it can be done just be removing negative stimuli. We need meaning, purpose, to be able to interact and know the REAL work. We want lives with meaning, purpose, severity and gravitas. A live eating and sitting comfortably with all the entertainment you want is not fulfilling. We want, and need, to exercise the full range of human ability, to be a power and a part of something, where our lifes energy shapes something lasting and important.
I would much rather a world where I can work with meaning, where I can live honest and true to myself, and be able to express myself freely and debate. Even if that involves competition, struggling and coming against others, there is a purpose. A world which is controlled for comfort cannot allow that. No longer will humans be able to shape the world, impress themselves on it and affect it, shape it, debate and express themselves. They will have to fit a mould, be moulded, and never brush up and push against the narrow path. Despite the physical comfort, the lack of "racism", this I think would make people depressed, a life, while comfortable, has no point at all. Lifes energy going nowhere.
Andeddu wrote to Arelor <=-
Then your attempt at Historical Materialism is dead on arrival, because nothing like idealised communism has been shown to work beyond extremely scale.
The idea would be to create a world similar to that in BNW, a scientific/communistic dictatorship. It is, however, just a book
& I am well aware all Communist regimes begin with good
intentions prior to ending in bloodshed. The road to hell is
paved with good intentions.
You have an extraordinary talent in saying completely opposing
things, all in one paragraph, and thinking that it makes sense to
anyone other than yourself. Extraordinary!
Oh yeah? Who decides who gets to decide what ideas are "less
reputable"?
Nothing to do with racial differences, these are human differences that are spread throughout different populations. It refers to autism, ADHD, dyslexi and a number of other neurological differences. These people often have out the box ways of solving problems, that 90% or more of the population would never have thought, and most of the remaining 10% probably wouldn't have ither.
Tradition does need to be question, but not discarded. Tradition and herita has two functions we don't appreciate. Firstly, tradition within it, has centuries and generations worth of knowledge, gained by trial and error, oft painfully. WE may not be able to explain why certain traditions or cultural mores are the way they are, but they nevertheless behind them, may contain m hard learned wisdon. Heritage also gives us grounding, and anchors us to a particular part of the patchwork of humanity, the part where we may best fit
On a side note, I find it very amusing that companies always talk of the val of diversity, because of different views, etc,blah, blah, but they simultanesouly want people who fit the company "culture".
Vk3jed wrote to Andeddu <=-
On 08-18-20 19:33, Andeddu wrote to Vk3jed <=-
I've never heard of neurodiversity. I am not saying it's not a thing but I have never come across any studies indicating that people of differnent races think differently. I understand cultural difference, however I think you're suggesting the races think differently even within the same ideological structures.
Nothing to do with racial differences, these are human differences that are spread throughout different populations. It refers to autism, ADHD, dyslexia, and a number of other neurological differences. These people often have out of the box ways of solving problems, that 90% or more of the population would never have thought, and most of the remaining 10% probably wouldn't have ither.
On a side note, I find it very amusing that companies always talk of the val of diversity, because of different views, etc,blah, blah, but they simultanesouly want people who fit the company "culture".
... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
sort of interface or power source. A Q would not require such a device. the Q Continuum is outside our time and space. Why would 2 Q raise a petulant child outside the continuum? why would such a child's behavior be
On 08-19-20 03:52, Underminer wrote to Vk3jed <=-
@VIA: VERT/UNDRMINE
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: Vk3jed to The Lizard Master on Wed Aug 19 2020 01:38 pm
Haha in DSP and software defined radio, I and Q have to work together. ;) (wonder if anyone else will get that one ;) ).
Pretty sure there's a few Hams about ;)
On 08-19-20 22:33, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-
On a side note, I find it very amusing that companies always talk of
the value of diversity, because of different views, etc,blah, blah, but they simultanesouly want people who fit the company "culture".
On 08-19-20 15:29, Andeddu wrote to Vk3jed <=-
I believe that a huge number of our finest mathematicians and
physicists are themselves on the autism spectrum. I watched quite an
interesting documentary a while ago about a group of British students competing in the Maths Olympiad. Around half appeared to be autistic.
They struggled to express themselves and converse with other less
talented "normal" students, however possessed incredible problem
solving ability. So yeah, I agree... neurological diversity is
important as it only takes one genius (who is able to think outside of
the box) to push forward human understanding by 50 or so years.
On 08-19-20 11:01, Moondog wrote to Vk3jed <=-
Those would also be the people we'd genetically screen out, abort, euthanize, or genetically "fix" so they won't contaminate a "pure" society.
I believe we are a long way off a world with no physical/mental adversity. I understand that going though hardship can create character, which in turn ca create a better person. There are, however, a huge number of truly awful peo who think nothing of causing harm to others. I know this is also a problem w our judicial system, as it doesn't appear to deter deplorable and heinous ac
Sam Harris talks of a world where there is no human caused suffering. In ord to make such a world possible, one would be incapable of causing unnecessary harm to another person/creatre. Perhaps something like gene manipulation cou work in the future... from what I know, empathy (although still does not prevent a person from killing another person) can mitigate the desire in a person to cause harm/suffering to another. A high empathy population would proper, I believe, and would be as close to a humane (and free-willed) utopi society as I can imagine.
On 08-19-20 11:01, Moondog wrote to Vk3jed <=-
Those would also be the people we'd genetically screen out, abort, euthanize, or genetically "fix" so they won't contaminate a "pure" society.
Ironically, many of those people would be the ones to make the technology possible in the first place!
China is a manufacturing/technological superpower. Once international trade dies off, Chinese firms will have to pay their worker's a fair wage so that they can purchase the goods they produce. They'll be landed with the same economical enviroment the USA had back in the 1950s-1980s when they too were a
manufacturing superpower.
I am not an advocate of Communism though.
The idea would be to create a world similar to that in BNW, a
scientific/communistic dictatorship. It is, however, just a book
& I am well aware all Communist regimes begin with good
intentions prior to ending in bloodshed. The road to hell is
paved with good intentions.
You have an extraordinary talent in saying completely opposing
things, all in one paragraph, and thinking that it makes sense to
anyone other than yourself. Extraordinary!
HusTler wrote to Moondog <=-
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: Moondog to Dennisk on Wed Aug 19 2020 11:36 am
On a side note, I find it very amusing that companies always talk of
the val of diversity, because of different views, etc,blah, blah, but
they simultanesouly want people who fit the company "culture".
Companies also hire lesser skilled recruits because of their diversity rather than experience and knowledge. I'm not sure if this is done because
These people are hired because they work for less money. That is it
and that is all. Diversity is just an after fart. Errr I mean after thought.
Moondog wrote to Andeddu <=-
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: Andeddu to Dennisk on Wed Aug 19 2020 05:16 pm
I believe we are a long way off a world with no physical/mental adversity. I understand that going though hardship can create character, which in turn ca create a better person. There are, however, a huge number of truly awful peo who think nothing of causing harm to others. I know this is also a problem w our judicial system, as it doesn't appear to deter deplorable and heinous ac
Sam Harris talks of a world where there is no human caused suffering. In ord to make such a world possible, one would be incapable of causing unnecessary harm to another person/creatre. Perhaps something like gene manipulation cou work in the future... from what I know, empathy (although still does not prevent a person from killing another person) can mitigate the desire in a person to cause harm/suffering to another. A high empathy population would proper, I believe, and would be as close to a humane (and free-willed) utopi society as I can imagine.
I'd hate to see the human race being bred into being a bunch of sheep.
We are not farm animals to be genetically altered to go to slaughter.
We are intelligent, self aware beings who are capable of more than
acting on instincts and primal urges. It will take awhile for everyone
to come onboard, however I believe a philosphy based on people treating others the wish they be treated can be adopted.
this is finding the common thread behind all nations and creeds and establish common ground. Henry Rollins, a musician also know n for
spoken word performances spoke of an idea he had about dropping all the even numbered Ramones albums on one side of the Israeli border and all
the odd number albums in Palestinian controlled territory. The day
will come where the troops will be massing and getting ready to fight, then someone on the opposite side will hear some music that sounds familiar, but the song is unknown. Eventually the gates ope n and
peace treaties will be authored as a means to exchange the albums the other side has not heard.
This is a bit ridiculous, however there has to be a way to establish
peace and common ground without breeding people into being sheep.
Moondog wrote to Andeddu <=-
Sam Harris talks of a world where there is no human caused suffering. In ord to make such a world possible, one would be incapable of causing unnecessary harm to another person/creatre. Perhaps something like gene manipulation cou work in the future... from what I know, empathy (although still does not prevent a person from killing another person) can mitigate the desire in a person to cause harm/suffering to another. A high empathy population would proper, I believe, and would be as close to a humane (and free-willed) utopi society as I can imagine.
I'd hate to see the human race being bred into being a bunch of
sheep.
And just like in Logan's Run, they kill you when you reach the age of 30 to sa ve resources.
Earlier this year I heard the quote: "Ships are safe when anchored
in protected harbors. But that's what ships are for." By the same theme I view humans as builders and problem solvers. There is an innate curiosity where humans will take risks to seek answers. In order gorw and move on as a civilization, there needs to be some form of suffering or discomfort: a reason
to discover and implement changes. Places where this is absent are where people toil in poverty and discomfort. As problem solvers, we need to find wa ys to improve conditions in these areas to encourage growth rather than pump
in money and resources to pacify these people.
However it's that diversity that promotes change and growth. When working in IT in the nuclear power industry, I heard of a concept called "groupthink." It's actually a bad thing, because everyone thinks alike, and will blindly accept an "experts" opinion as gospel without considering an alternative outcome. A good example of this in the scene in Apollo 13 where some figures the only way to get the astronauts home is if they can keep their power consumption below a seemingly impossible threshold. the chief engineer says that's impossible, and his folks accept it. It takes someone outside his authority to apply a questioning attitude to prove they were wrong.
Back in the 90's I took a quality workgroup training course that implemented bringing in an outside person into a discussion to question the group why they can't see the forest from within the trees. In the forum, all were considered equals in opinion. Of course, the outside guy was always a manger of higher rank, and acted as an authoritarian rather than a moderator. Groupthink killed quality improvement.
What "Chaos" are you referring to? Portland? Seattle? These are cities with extremely weak governments. Both cities will eventually be brought to it's knees and will be begging for help. Whatever "chaos" you're referring to I can assure you is only temporary. ... Democracy is the art of running the circus from the monkey cage.
HusTler
I did buy and read Strange Death of Europe. A lot of it were things I had ruminated on, or guessed to some degree, but Douglas Murray wrote with great clarity. I'm pretty convinced we are in a general civilisational decline, don't let the iPhone's fool you.
People have become so cocooned, coddled, they have lost connection with reality, and are functioning in a make-believe world.
Yes, there are a lot of harmful people, who want to control us, dominate us, screw us over. That is why I object to social engineering, to having someone with authority dicate what we can do, how we should think, engineer us, because far, far, far more likely than not, the person who will get to decide how we should go "forward" will be one of these self-serving assholes. And they may not come accross that way. They may come accross as professional, smiley, seemingly rational and selfless.
You are talking of engineering people. I'm saying that if we think we should be engineered, the worst of society will do the engineering. The people who want to do "good" are often the worst. Some of the nastiest people I've met, are people who claim to fight for minorities and the underclass, etc. Anti-racism is hateful. Inclusion is just discimination by another name.
This is a bit ridiculous, however there has to be a way to establish peace and common ground without breeding people into being sheep.
On 08-20-20 09:27, Moondog wrote to Vk3jed <=-
Very true. The abnormally gifted people will be the ones who can recognize and categorize the genes that stand out.
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: Moondog to Andeddu on Wed Aug 19 2020 09:28 am
And just like in Logan's Run, they kill you when you reach the age of 30 sa ve resources.
Lol, I haven't seen Logan's Run but I have heard about a number of hypotheti social contracts whereby citizens must sacrifice themselves for the good of state once they reach the ripe old age of around 60ish. Becoming elderly is viewed as something that upends the natural order... how many old wild anima have you seen?
Andeddu wrote to Moondog <=-
That's the problem with social engineering. As an
administrator/dictator, your objective would be to retain the
status quo by any means. This stifles innovation by the promotion
of conformity via strict regulations. A world that's socially
engineered is one which is ordered, as opposed to the sort of
chaotic world we live in today. There are positives and negatives
in both systems. In a chaotic world, there's a good chance we'll
wipe ourselves out in a major nuclear conflict. A stable society
that takes no risks, in this example, would be preferable.
Andeddu wrote to Moondog <=-
I agree that groupthink is bad and that there has to be an open
discourse where ideas can be assessed.
The problem with too many ideas is that they can move a civilisaiton/society down the path of destruction.
If a successful society accepts that it's
imperfect, and implements 10,50,100 or 1000 new acts of
legislation or regulation, each act being sensible and
progressive, you may end up with a worse society than you started
with.
A socially engineered society is one which will do anything to
preserve the rules presently in place, because too many changes
could topple the regime or completely alter the course of the civilisation.
close to peace. The world is more fractured today than ever before... relati are going backwards, not forwards!
I'm a New Yorker. The Mayor Blazio is Delusional and talks tough until the city needs money from the feds. Then he blames the feds (President) for his short comings. The whole thing is a travesty.
Elder animals are somehow common in social species. For example, chimps. Primates have an evolutionary pass for old members because old individuals are useful - they can take care of the youngsters while everybody else is busy.
Guess what, that is what I see a lot of in Spain. Gandpas taking care of the babies when mom and dad are working to put food on the table.
Preferable to who? You? I would hate living in a world like that and would likely off myself. But hey..that's just me.
I'm a New Yorker. The Mayor Blazio is Delusional and talks tough until the city needs money from the feds. Then he blames the feds (President) for his short comings. The whole thing is a travesty. He protects non-citizens but doesn't have the money to feed them, house them, provide healthcare for them. So he takes a billion dollars away from the cops. He thinks he can get what he wants out of NYC police because he's a tough guy. Well, guess what? The NYC police has endorsed Donald Trump. So yea..let's see how things pan out.
HusTler
That's the problem with social engineering. As an administrator/dictator, your objective would be to retain the
status quo by any means. This stifles innovation by the promotion
of conformity via strict regulations. A world that's socially engineered is one which is ordered, as opposed to the sort of
chaotic world we live in today. There are positives and negatives
in both systems. In a chaotic world, there's a good chance we'll
wipe ourselves out in a major nuclear conflict. A stable society
that takes no risks, in this example, would be preferable.
No, it wouldn't. Wrong, again.
And yet you promote a society where there can *BE* no open
discourse, because everyone is a drone/sheep that has been
assimilated into the Borg "for the benefit of all".
Does that make any sense, even to you?
I suppose that is possible, but not likely. Did you ever stop to
wonder how a "successful society" (your words) got to be that way
in the first place? Maybe they know what they're doing?
Yeah, let's not have "too many changes" in society. It would be
so much better to just STAGNATE and have everyone be the same.
Right? Do you even SEE the idiocy of your statements?
The world is more peaceful this century than it ever was.
The Middle Ages consistend in warlords who swore fealty among each other and waged war against other warlords all day long.
In antique times they had rampant slavery, they killed you for holding the wrong opinion, and big empires took lands, killed all the men and enslaved the women and children.
We are much better today than we used to be.
IF you breed people into sheep, they will be MORE likely to commit mass violence. Nazi Germany wasn't exactly populated by people who were free to express their own moral and political ideas, and challenge the mandated morality.
The idea about dropping Ramone's albums sounds cute, but is ridiculous. I think a good start towards a better society is not thinking that celebrities with opinions are a good source of guidance. A society is pretty broken whe it thinks that Madonna's opinion of French politics for example, somehow carries any weight.
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: Moondog to Andeddu on Wed Aug 19 2020 09:28 am
And just like in Logan's Run, they kill you when you reach the age of 30 sa ve resources.
Lol, I haven't seen Logan's Run but I have heard about a number of hypotheti social contracts whereby citizens must sacrifice themselves for the good of state once they reach the ripe old age of around 60ish. Becoming elderly is viewed as something that upends the natural order... how many old wild anima have you seen?
That's the problem with social engineering. As an administrator/dictator, yo objective would be to retain the status quo by any means. This stifles innovation by the promotion of conformity via strict regulations. A world that's socially engineered is one which is ordered, as opposed to the sort o chaotic world we live in today. There are positives and negatives in both systems. In a chaotic world, there's a good chance we'll wipe ourselves out a major nuclear conflict. A stable society that takes no risks, in this example, would be preferable.
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: Moondog to Andeddu on Wed Aug 19 2020 10:12 am
However it's that diversity that promotes change and growth. When workin in IT in the nuclear power industry, I heard of a concept called "groupthink." It's actually a bad thing, because everyone thinks alike, will blindly accept an "experts" opinion as gospel without considering an alternative outcome. A good example of this in the scene in Apollo 13 wh some figures the only way to get the astronauts home is if they can keep their power consumption below a seemingly impossible threshold. the chie engineer says that's impossible, and his folks accept it. It takes someo outside his authority to apply a questioning attitude to prove they were wrong.
Back in the 90's I took a quality workgroup training course that implemen bringing in an outside person into a discussion to question the group why they can't see the forest from within the trees. In the forum, all were considered equals in opinion. Of course, the outside guy was always a manger of higher rank, and acted as an authoritarian rather than a moderator. Groupthink killed quality improvement.
I agree that groupthink is bad and that there has to be an open discourse wh ideas can be assessed. The problem with too many ideas is that they can move civilisaiton/society down the path of destruction. If a successful society accepts that it's imperfect, and implements 10,50,100 or 1000 new acts of legislation or regulation, each act being sensible and progressive, you may up with a worse society than you started with.
A socially engineered society is one which will do anything to preserve the rules presently in place, because too many changes could topple the regime o completely alter the course of the civilisation.
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: Moondog to Andeddu on Thu Aug 20 2020 09:17 am
This is a bit ridiculous, however there has to be a way to establish peac and common ground without breeding people into being sheep.
As much as I was nodding to myself while reading your post, I think you're being a little naive. Humans will never stop killing each other. Even if it' over the tiniest difference, we will never EVER stop harming each other in s and twisted ways. We have never come close to achieving a utopia, never come close to peace. The world is more fractured today than ever before... relati are going backwards, not forwards!
I don't have much faith that we'll ever settle our differences. I mean, wher would you even begin?
On 08-20-20 09:27, Moondog wrote to Vk3jed <=-
Very true. The abnormally gifted people will be the ones who can recognize and categorize the genes that stand out.
Exactly, and what's been happening in Silicon Valley in recent years is more evidence that suggests neurodvergent people are a significant contributing factor to today's technology. Basically, it is a known fact that there is a unusually high prevalence of autism in Silicon Valley, and that is put down there being a concentration of autistic traits among the engineers and other tech people who live and work there. And as most people meet their partners through local and work connections, those people are having kids together, concentrating those traits.
Some food for thought...
https://www.womenofsiliconvalley.com/blog/neurodiversity-in-silicon-valley
And here's a different perspective. I met Steve Silberman at an autism conference in Melbourne in 2016, and have a signed copy of his book (mention in the second article below). One chapter of the book talks about activitie and interests like ham radio and pop culture, as well as te Internet, where autistic people congregated. And I have no doubt BBSs are in that category too! :)
https://tinyurl.com/y7798kza
... Some people grow under responsibility. Others merely swell up.
On 08-21-20 13:03, Moondog wrote to Vk3jed <=-
I've seen many times in discussion forums where some posters lack any
form of social etiquette, or drone on after the subject had been
changed. Borderline Asperger's Syndrome.
On 08-21-20 04:00, Arelor wrote to Andeddu <=-
Elder animals are somehow common in social species. For example,
chimps. Primates have an evolutionary pass for old members because old individuals are useful - they can take care of the youngsters while everybody else is busy.
Guess what, that is what I see a lot of in Spain. Gandpas taking care
of the babies when mom and dad are working to put food on the table.
On 08-21-20 07:15, HusTler wrote to Andeddu <=-
@VIA: VERT/HAVENS
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: Andeddu to Moondog on Fri Aug 21 2020 02:42 am
that's socially engineered is one which is ordered, as opposed to the sort o chaotic world we live in today. There are positives and negatives in both systems. In a chaotic world, there's a good chance we'll wipe ourselves out a major nuclear conflict. A stable society that takes no risks, in this example, would be preferable.
Preferable to who? You? I would hate living in a world like that and would likely off myself. But hey..that's just me.
On 08-21-20 12:54, Moondog wrote to Andeddu <=-
Before fixing a problem, the root cause must be established. Why do people turn to crime? Why do gangs exist? Why do people blindly allow bad things to happen in their neighborhoods? Why do these same people
fear the police showing up? Why do people resort to violence?
Questions like these will need to be answered first before we can
consider making changes.
I agree we'll never have world peace or eliminate all crime. Crime is
not just a poverty issue. I knew kids from well to do families that
would steal for the thrill of it. These are questions I cannot answer.
I do have some hope because if we can teach kids not to touch hot
stoves or stick things in electrical outlets, we can early on establish principals of self respect, honesty, and morality.
Andeddu wrote to Moondog <=-
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: Moondog to Andeddu on Wed Aug 19 2020 09:56 am
Earlier this year I heard the quote: "Ships are safe when anchored
in protected harbors. But that's what ships are for." By the same theme I view humans as builders and problem solvers. There is an innate curiosity where humans will take risks to seek answers. In order gorw and move on as a civilization, there needs to be some form of suffering or discomfort: a reason
to discover and implement changes. Places where this is absent are where people toil in poverty and discomfort. As problem solvers, we need to find wa ys to improve conditions in these areas to encourage growth rather than pump
in money and resources to pacify these people.
That's the problem with social engineering. As an
administrator/dictator, your objective would be to retain the status
quo by any means. This stifles innovation by the promotion of
conformity via strict regulations. A world that's socially engineered
is one which is ordered, as opposed to the sort of chaotic world we
live in today. There are positives and negatives in both systems. In a chaotic world, there's a good chance we'll wipe ourselves out in a
major nuclear conflict. A stable society that takes no risks, in this example, would be preferable.
Andeddu wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Thu Aug 20 2020 10:03 pm
I did buy and read Strange Death of Europe. A lot of it were things I had ruminated on, or guessed to some degree, but Douglas Murray wrote with great clarity. I'm pretty convinced we are in a general civilisational decline, don't let the iPhone's fool you.
People have become so cocooned, coddled, they have lost connection with reality, and are functioning in a make-believe world.
Yes, I agree that through our very poor educational system, people are going to forget, discard or even repudiate the high culture we once had (The Renaissance, The Age of Enlightenment, etc)... and in doing so,
our civilisation will end not with a bang, but with a wimper.
I mean just compare Rembrant's masterpieces to present day art, for example!
Andeddu wrote to Arelor <=-
The world is more peaceful this century than it ever was.
The Middle Ages consistend in warlords who swore fealty among each other and waged war against other warlords all day long.
In antique times they had rampant slavery, they killed you for holding the wrong opinion, and big empires took lands, killed all the men and enslaved the women and children.
We are much better today than we used to be.
The 20th century is the most murderous in world history. Two
world wars, a huge number of violent revolutions and ethnic
cleansing resulted in around 190 million deaths. The middle ages
were rather tame in comparison.
Andeddu wrote to Gamgee <=-
That's the problem with social engineering. As an administrator/dictator, your objective would be to retain the
status quo by any means. This stifles innovation by the promotion
of conformity via strict regulations. A world that's socially engineered is one which is ordered, as opposed to the sort of
chaotic world we live in today. There are positives and negatives
in both systems. In a chaotic world, there's a good chance we'll
wipe ourselves out in a major nuclear conflict. A stable society
that takes no risks, in this example, would be preferable.
No, it wouldn't. Wrong, again.
Okay... have fun scavenging in a barren nuclear wasteland!
Moondog wrote to Andeddu <=-
In the film and TV series for Logan's Run, the age was 30. My underrstanding from what others said, the age is younger in the
original story.
Everyone is dietarily "on the pill," so sex with
multiple partners is a common activity.
Children are genetically
designed from harvested DNA and grown in artficial wombs, and the
children are raised by the system without parents. In one part of the film they implied sometime there are unplanned children, and they are normally taken to an older, less visited are of the domed city. It
looked like a cathedral long abandoned by the culture, and the
residents there live off the grid.
I'm a New Yorker. The Mayor Blazio is Delusional and talks tough until
the city needs money from the feds. Then he blames the feds (President)
I did see that the US policing federation formally endorsed Trump, which is quite a statement as they usually remain impartial. New York is such a
And a lot of traditional societies have their elders participate more in cli rearing and other aspects of running the village. Many respect their elders too, unlike many Western societies, who lock them up in "norsing homes". :/
On 08-21-20 13:03, Moondog wrote to Vk3jed <=-
I've seen many times in discussion forums where some posters lack any form of social etiquette, or drone on after the subject had been changed. Borderline Asperger's Syndrome.
This medium is likely to attract people on the spectrum, because of the high level of technical expertise required, especially for those of us who did it back in the 80s and 90s. :)
... Warranty: If it breaks, both halves are yours.
I'm with you, that sounds like Hell, or worse - mind numbingly boring and stale. The very things I have an intolerance for. Either I'd find a way to disruot the system, or top myself. :D I am at my most devious when unwarran conformity is placed upon me.
Andeddu wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Thu Aug 20 2020 10:03 pm
I did buy and read Strange Death of Europe. A lot of it were things I ha ruminated on, or guessed to some degree, but Douglas Murray wrote with gr clarity. I'm pretty convinced we are in a general civilisational decline don't let the iPhone's fool you.
People have become so cocooned, coddled, they have lost connection with reality, and are functioning in a make-believe world.
Yes, I agree that through our very poor educational system, people are going to forget, discard or even repudiate the high culture we once had (The Renaissance, The Age of Enlightenment, etc)... and in doing so, our civilisation will end not with a bang, but with a wimper.
I mean just compare Rembrant's masterpieces to present day art, for example!
I don't recall The Renaissance and The Age of Enlightenment esposing values which turned humans into mindless sheep which would blindly follow someone elses value system.
... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
Okay... have fun scavenging in a barren nuclear wasteland!
Honestly, I would rather do that than be a mindless sheep
controlled by some dictator/Borg. Seriously.
But it's not likely to happen, because your statement above is
flawed/wrong anyway. I don't agree that there's a "good chance"
we'll wipe ourselves out in a major nuclear conflict.
A society that takes no risks doesn't last very long.
Jenny Agutter.
And that is because our society has divided us. What if we were a village t looked after our elders collectively, as well as the kids?
In the film and TV series for Logan's Run, the age was 30. My underrstanding from what others said, the age is younger in the original story. Everyone is dietarily "on the pill," so sex with multiple partners is a common activity. Children are genetically designed from harvested DNA and grown in artficial wombs, and the children are raised by the system without parents. In one
part of the film they implied sometime there are unplanned children, and they are normally taken to an older, less visited are of the domed city. It looked like a cathedral long abandoned by the culture, and the residents there live off the grid.
A society that is too slow to react to change can also be a detriment.
Before fixing a problem, the root cause must be established. Why do people turn to crime? Why do gangs exist? Why do people blindly allow bad things to happen in their neighborhoods? Why do these same people fear the police showing up? Why do people resort to violence? Questions like these will need to be answered first before we can consider making changes.
I agree we'll never have world peace or eliminate all crime. Crime is not just a poverty issue. I knew kids from well to do families that would steal for the thrill of it. These are questions I cannot answer. I do have some hope because if we can teach kids not to touch hot stoves or stick things in electrical outlets, we can early on establish principals of self respect, honesty, and morality.
Anddedu, you are such a confused individual. I don't know how your brain holds itself together.
All totalitarian regimes enforce a status quo, and want a stable society that takes no risks (to upset the status quo).
You are LITERALLY advocating totalitarian dictatorship, and then, at the same time, wanting to avoid conflict.
So you want dicatorships, but will pathologise any individuals or nations, that won't succumb, and blame THEM for violence, if they resist enslavement!!
My God man!!!!
I don't recall The Renaissance and The Age of Enlightenment esposing values which turned humans into mindless sheep which would blindly follow someone elses value system.
The 20th century is the most murderous in world history. Two
world wars, a huge number of violent revolutions and ethnic
cleansing resulted in around 190 million deaths. The middle ages
were rather tame in comparison.
Guess what! You're a little behind. It's now the 21st Century.
Also you should brush up on your history a little. Ever heard of
the Inquisition/Crusades? How about the Black Death? Perhaps
other major diseases and famine? Maybe an average lifespan of
35-ish years old? Does the name Ghengis Khan and the Mongolian
conquests mean anything?
It makes the statement "we need law enforcement". The fact of the matter is blacks disrespect police and resist arrest. I don't want New York City to turn into another Portland or Seattle. These people must be stopped and law enforcement is the only way to do that.
On 08-23-20 08:50, Arelor wrote to Vk3jed <=-
Letting the tribe look after the kids collectively sounds like such an ugly idea.
I know who my neighbors are and I would not trust a candy bar to them.
Andeddu wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Thu Aug 20 2020 10:07 pm
Yes, there are a lot of harmful people, who want to control us, dominate us, screw us over. That is why I object to social engineering, to having someone with authority dicate what we can do, how we should think, engineer us, because far, far, far more likely than not, the person who will get to decide how we should go "forward" will be one of these self-serving assholes. And they may not come accross that way. They may come accross as professional, smiley, seemingly rational and selfless.
You are talking of engineering people. I'm saying that if we think we should be engineered, the worst of society will do the engineering. The people who want to do "good" are often the worst. Some of the nastiest people I've met, are people who claim to fight for minorities and the underclass, etc. Anti-racism is hateful. Inclusion is just discimination by another name.
I believe that we can engineer a better breed of human. I am not particularly interested in intelligence or anything in relation to
race. I would just like to believe that we could consistently produce
kind and caring human beings... altruists who do good for the sake of
it, asking for nothing else in return.
These people are rare, as most people are equally bad as they are good. This is hypothetical, of course, as the person or people likely to
promote such an agenda would have to be benevolent & kind themselves... traits that are generally absent in those who wield true power.
Moondog wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: Dennisk to Moondog on Fri Aug 21 2020 08:50 am
IF you breed people into sheep, they will be MORE likely to commit mass violence. Nazi Germany wasn't exactly populated by people who were free to express their own moral and political ideas, and challenge the mandated morality.
The idea about dropping Ramone's albums sounds cute, but is ridiculous. I think a good start towards a better society is not thinking that celebrities with opinions are a good source of guidance. A society is pretty broken whe it thinks that Madonna's opinion of French politics for example, somehow carries any weight.
Rollins is an entertainer, although he attempts political commentary.
I listen to his spoken word for entertainment only. I found the idea entertaining something simple as finding a comnon ground of music appreciation could help find greater common ground. In truth, most enemies are so clouded by hate, they would find a way to spin that
common ground into more hate.
Andeddu wrote to Boraxman <=-
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: Boraxman to Andeddu on Sat Aug 22 2020 01:43 pm
Anddedu, you are such a confused individual. I don't know how your brain holds itself together.
All totalitarian regimes enforce a status quo, and want a stable society that takes no risks (to upset the status quo).
You are LITERALLY advocating totalitarian dictatorship, and then, at the same time, wanting to avoid conflict.
So you want dicatorships, but will pathologise any individuals or nations, that won't succumb, and blame THEM for violence, if they resist enslavement!!
My God man!!!!
I have spoken earlier about this. In order to achieve a totalitarian state, whether benevolant or not, there will have to be a transitional period. This transitional period will be a period of crisis and
conflict followed by normalisation of the new way of life, which is dictated by the new regime.
I am not advocating anything by the way... I am merely discussing ideas
in relation to difficult questions. I don't consider myself right or
wrong - it's just a debate on ideological beliefs regarding economic, political and social systems.
Andeddu wrote to Moondog <=-
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: Moondog to Andeddu on Fri Aug 21 2020 12:54 pm
Before fixing a problem, the root cause must be established. Why do people turn to crime? Why do gangs exist? Why do people blindly allow bad things to happen in their neighborhoods? Why do these same people fear the police showing up? Why do people resort to violence? Questions like these will need to be answered first before we can consider making changes.
I agree we'll never have world peace or eliminate all crime. Crime is not just a poverty issue. I knew kids from well to do families that would steal for the thrill of it. These are questions I cannot answer. I do have some hope because if we can teach kids not to touch hot stoves or stick things in electrical outlets, we can early on establish principals of self respect, honesty, and morality.
People kill each other for the most trivial of reasons, and I am not
just referring to Medieval times. The Catohlics and Protestants have
been murdering each other for centuries, and they beleive in the same God... likewise so do the Sunnis and Shias. Until we have a universal belief system, there will never be peace.
A lot of people are just born bad. There isn't much that can be done to help them especially if they're supposed to abide by the strict
confines of a civilised society.
So we are left with the only solution which is to genetically alter
people to be kinder and more empathetic, and have a universal belief system...
On 08-23-20 08:50, Arelor wrote to Vk3jed <=-
Letting the tribe look after the kids collectively sounds like such an ugly idea.
It worked for most of humanity's existence. Our currently tightly controlle nuclear families are a very recent development, and more of a Western idea. Even today, many other cultures have much stronger extended families than we o.
I know who my neighbors are and I would not trust a candy bar to them.
Again, in the context of a very sick and unnatural society. :/
... DalekDOS v(overflow): (I)Obey (V)ision impaired (E)xterminate
Andeddu wrote to Moondog <=-
People kill each other for the most trivial of reasons, and I am
not just referring to Medieval times. The Catohlics and
Protestants have been murdering each other for centuries, and
they beleive in the same God... likewise so do the Sunnis and
Shias. Until we have a universal belief system, there will never
be peace.
A lot of people are just born bad. There isn't much that can be
done to help them especially if they're supposed to abide by the
strict confines of a civilised society.
So we are left with the only solution which is to genetically
alter people to be kinder and more empathetic, and have a
universal belief system...
Andeddu wrote to Boraxman <=-
I don't recall The Renaissance and The Age of Enlightenment esposing values which turned humans into mindless sheep which would blindly follow someone elses value system.
No, they didn't really have "The Borg" mentalitiy... which is a
shame.
Andeddu wrote to Gamgee <=-
Also you should brush up on your history a little. Ever heard of
the Inquisition/Crusades? How about the Black Death? Perhaps
other major diseases and famine? Maybe an average lifespan of
35-ish years old? Does the name Ghengis Khan and the Mongolian
conquests mean anything?
Yes, I have heard of all of those Crusades and Conquests, yet
they still pale in comparison to the 20th Century... I never said
we weren't violent in the past. In actuality, I said, we have
always been violent and have never achieved peace in all of human
history.
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: Moondog to Andeddu on Fri Aug 21 2020 12:23 pm
In the film and TV series for Logan's Run, the age was 30. My underrstanding from what others said, the age is younger in the original story. Everyone is dietarily "on the pill," so sex with multiple partner is a common activity. Children are genetically designed from harvested D and grown in artficial wombs, and the children are raised by the system without parents. In one
part of the film they implied sometime there are unplanned children, and they are normally taken to an older, less visited are of the domed city. looked like a cathedral long abandoned by the culture, and the residents there live off the grid.
I'll have to watch the movie. I will pick it up sometime soon and see it because I am interested in the subject matter, and it's a fairly famous film just think 30 is a little young as the idea is that you sacrifice yourself f the good of society once you become a net deficit due to old age.
It's interesting to see that these ideas have been around for almost 90 year and technology has only just caught up. I wonder if some of these outlandish schemes are going to be put into practice in ther future.
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: Moondog to Andeddu on Fri Aug 21 2020 12:38 pm
A society that is too slow to react to change can also be a detriment.
There has to be moderation. The Catholic church, for instance, was unable to accept new ideas. It inflicted death unto those who refused to believe its version of the faith... as Christianity is (technically) set in stone though the old literature, zealous believers did everything they could to preserve original structure and core ideals.
I think the core ideals of a civilisaiton should remain the same, however, other (less important) aspects can be open to adaptation. Change everything you end up with chaos.
People kill each other for the most trivial of reasons, and I am not just referring to Medieval times. The Catohlics and Protestants have been murderi each other for centuries, and they beleive in the same God... likewise so do the Sunnis and Shias. Until we have a universal belief system, there will ne be peace.
A lot of people are just born bad. There isn't much that can be done to help them especially if they're supposed to abide by the strict confines of a civilised society.
So we are left with the only solution which is to genetically alter people t be kinder and more empathetic, and have a universal belief system...
I have spoken earlier about this. In order to achieve a totalitarian state, whether benevolant or not, there will have to be a transitional period. This transitional period will be a period of crisis and conflict followed by normalisation of the new way of life, which is dictated by the new regime.
I am not advocating anything by the way... I am merely discussing ideas in relation to difficult questions. I don't consider myself right or wrong - it just a debate on ideological beliefs regarding economic, political and socia systems.
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: HusTler to Andeddu on Sat Aug 22 2020 08:36 am
It makes the statement "we need law enforcement". The fact of the matte is blacks disrespect police and resist arrest. I don't want New York City turn into another Portland or Seattle. These people must be stopped and l enforcement is the only way to do that.
We need safer communities, and for that to happen... we need more police, no fewer. A lower level of crime would attract businesses which would rejuvinat the area. I don't see how reducing the policing budget could EVER reduce cri as it would only reinforce the spiral of violence, poverty and destitution.
.... Try adopting a system they can grow into and buy into
versus a system forced upon them before birth.
People kill each other for the most trivial of reasons, and I am not just referring to Medieval times. The Catohlics and Protestants have been murderi each other for centuries, and they beleive in the same God... likewise so do the Sunnis and Shias. Until we have a universal belief system, there will ne be peace.
Moondog wrote to Andeddu <=-
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: Andeddu to Moondog on Mon Aug 24 2020 02:17 am
People kill each other for the most trivial of reasons, and I am not just referring to Medieval times. The Catohlics and Protestants have been murderi each other for centuries, and they beleive in the same God... likewise so do the Sunnis and Shias. Until we have a universal belief system, there will ne be peace.
A lot of people are just born bad. There isn't much that can be done to help them especially if they're supposed to abide by the strict confines of a civilised society.
So we are left with the only solution which is to genetically alter people t be kinder and more empathetic, and have a universal belief system...
Adopting a universal belief system would be as hard as getting everyone
in the world to buy into a true socialist system. Genetic modification can get out of control, and breed people into being a creature that
would not be able to survive outside it's structured system. Imagine there is a disaster that forces people to move out of their cities to
hunt and forage because the system cannot provide for them? Some
aspects of aggressive behavior are survi val related, and breeding this out of drone factory workers does not sound like a future plan for failure.
Let's stick with teaching kids morals, ethics, and self responsibility.
Man has the intelligence to operate at a higher level of self
discipline, we just need to figure how to make it work for the majority
of the people. Try adopting a system they can grow into and buy into versus a system forced upon them before birth.
poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Andeddu <=-
Whoever came up with the term "defund police" must not have
worked in marketing.
You reduce the police budget, use the money to create programs
with economic opportunity and pay for social services to deal with
the non-criminal tasks that police have to do by default nowadays.
You don't need to deal with an emotionally disturbed homeless person
with a tazer, baton and a glock.
There needs to be a way to prosecute law enforcement officers
fairly. Qualified Immunity needs to be changed.
Police departments need to have a zero tolerance policy for
escessive violence. Good luck with the police unions on that.
Oh, and get them out of combat gear - and have the military sell
the surplus military vehicles to a friendly country, if there are
any left, instead of donating it to law enforcement agencies.
Andeddu wrote to HusTler <=-
We need safer communities, and for that to happen... we need more police, not fewer. A lower level of crime would attract businesses which would rejuvinate the area. I don't see how reducing the policing budget could EVER reduce crime as it would only reinforce the spiral of violence, poverty and destitution.
Whoever came up with the term "defund police" must not have worked in
marketing.
You reduce the police budget, use the money to create programs with
economic opportunity and pay for social services to deal with the
non-criminal tasks that police have to do by default nowadays. You
don't need to deal with an emotionally disturbed homeless person with
a tazer, baton and a glock.
You train police in de-escalation and make them a part of the
community they serve. I hear way to much "us versus them" from police
organizations.
You eliminate asset forfeiture laws, which are nothing now except
untraced funding sources for police departments.
There needs to be a way to prosecute law enforcement officers fairly.
Qualified Immunity needs to be changed.
Police departments need to have a zero tolerance policy for escessive
violence. Good luck with the police unions on that.
You re-build trust.
Oh, and get them out of combat gear - and have the military sell the
surplus military vehicles to a friendly country, if there are any
left, instead of donating it to law enforcement agencies.
... Start where you are. Use what you have. Do what you can.
Arelor wrote to Atroxi <=-ma
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: Atroxi to Moondog on Tue Aug 25 2020 01:31 pm
I'm sorry, I was a bit out of the loop recently and have lost track at how
ssive this thread had become. I got sucked intowhi
installing FreeBSD and some horrible stuff happened at our house recently
ch led me to losing a bunch of my stuff. But
everything's good now, I hope.
How you all guys doing?
Did you have a fire or something? If so, that is too bad.
I am doing fine, setting an online store and selling stuff. Thanks for asking.
On 08-24-20 09:10, Arelor wrote to Vk3jed <=-
I don't look up to most cultures that feature weak extended families.
Like our Western society? ;) Our extended family links are weaker than many Asian a
European cultures. I see the contrast here between those of Anglo descent and peop
from other cultural backgrounds. The non Anglo cultures seem to invest a lot more
energy in their extended families.
... Staring into a dragon's jaws, one quickly learns wisdom.
Arelor wrote to Atroxi <=-
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: Atroxi to Moondog on Tue Aug 25 2020 01:31 pm
I'm sorry, I was a bit out of the loop recently and have lost track at howma
ssive this thread had become. I got sucked intowhi
installing FreeBSD and some horrible stuff happened at our house recently
ch led me to losing a bunch of my stuff. But
everything's good now, I hope.
How you all guys doing?
Did you have a fire or something? If so, that is too bad.
It's not that bad, but we had a break-in a few days ago. Lost my phone, two of my
bags that had some valuables including a backup hard drive of my office files as we
as my wallet which had a lot of personal IDs and cards. I got my phone number back
now, my driver's license and my bank card. I was lucky I backed all of my data from
the stolen phone a few weeks prior so I still had my contacts and photos with me.
I'm quite disturbed until now, thinking that the thief was actually in my room whi
I was sleeping, now I'm paranoid that I placed a barrel bolt lock on my door. But
thinking about it right now, it's quite funny to me that my laptop which is a Think
T400 was left there unmolested, silently compiling stuff while the robber did his j
I am doing fine, setting an online store and selling stuff. Thanks for asking.
What are you selling?
... You want to delete me right? Yeah, you sure do. You slut.
They still are. Dying for Allah is the same shit to me. Religion is man made and has no place in the real world. People are scared shitless of dying and need to believe there is someplace better when we kick. Someplace where we can see Mom again. I guess this belongs in Debates or Religion eh? ;-)
Now I'm thinking of a bad movie with Lee Majors playing a guy who,
after the Gas Wars, when vehicles are outlawed, drives across country
in an illegal car while being chased by elements of a totalitarian
government. I think it came out the same time as "Red Barchetta".
Whoever came up with the term "defund police" must not have worked in
marketing.
You reduce the police budget, use the money to create programs with
economic opportunity and pay for social services to deal with the
non-criminal tasks that police have to do by default nowadays. You
don't need to deal with an emotionally disturbed homeless person with
a tazer, baton and a glock.
You train police in de-escalation and make them a part of the
community they serve. I hear way to much "us versus them" from police
organizations.
You eliminate asset forfeiture laws, which are nothing now except
untraced funding sources for police departments.
There needs to be a way to prosecute law enforcement officers fairly.
Qualified Immunity needs to be changed.
Police departments need to have a zero tolerance policy for escessive
violence. Good luck with the police unions on that.
You re-build trust.
If you were a police officer, and the criminals were often
wearing/using combat gear, would you like to also have combat
gear? Would you like to take on a crazed killer using semi/auto
weapons and body armor, whilst wearing a T-shirt and a baton?
Force must be met with equal/greater force, if you want to live.
I see your point, but when MANY of the criminals have superior weapons/shielding than the police, what should they do?
This is a good illustration of the problem with the
liberal/Democrat approach to solving police problems. It's very
easy to say (and get the "base" all fired up by doing it) things
like "Defund the Police!", but such methods are sorely lacking in
reality. It's a 'effin WAR out there, and the bad guys are
heavily armed, often with nothing to lose. Again I ask, would
*YOU* want to be a police officer, and be told that you now have
to face these assholes with LESS equipment than you already have?
If that was me, I'd quit. A lot of them have quit. What if they
all quit? What's the solution then?
Most politicians (on both sides) need a big heavy dose of reality
dumped on their heads. They have no idea how it is out there in
the actual real-life world. Another thing that contributes to the
"police problems" is that we never see the GOOD outcomes that GOOD
cops produce. That doesn't sell ads or make the news. That
doesn't fit the agenda. "They" don't want that kind of thing seen
by the masses.
On 08-26-20 05:53, Arelor wrote to Vk3jed <=-
Western society is not built around extended families at all. Not even
Andeddu wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
I think you are referring to The Last Chase. I haven't seen it
myself... seems like it's another film I'll have to add to my list! Is
it so bad that it's not worth watching?
On 08-26-20 05:53, Arelor wrote to Vk3jed <=-
Western society is not built around extended families at all. Not even
And I'm wondering if that is one of the many issues we have.
... Bad day: Smokey the Bear stamps out your birthday cake.
On 08-27-20 10:44, Arelor wrote to Vk3jed <=-
Feel free to live with your parents, grandparents, sons and nephes
under the same roof.
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: Andeddu to HusTler on Wed Aug 26 2020 03:50 pm
possible to justify waging war against non-believers. I am not naive enou think that ending religion would bring about peace... people will always way to justify in their minds the horrific acts they commit.
I doubt ending religion would bring peace to. I often wonder what our world
HusTler
havens.synchro.net:23
On 08-26-20 05:53, Arelor wrote to Vk3jed <=-
Western society is not built around extended families at all. Not even
And I'm wondering if that is one of the many issues we have.
... Bad day: Smokey the Bear stamps out your birthday cake.
Andeddu wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
I think you are referring to The Last Chase. I haven't seen it myself... seems like it's another film I'll have to add to my list! Is it so bad that it's not worth watching?
I remember watching it when I was a kid and being impressed by it -
I think it and Rollerball turned me to distopian science fiction.
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: Vk3jed to Arelor on Thu Aug 27 2020 08:44 pm
On 08-26-20 05:53, Arelor wrote to Vk3jed <=-
Western society is not built around extended families at all. Not ev
And I'm wondering if that is one of the many issues we have.
... Bad day: Smokey the Bear stamps out your birthday cake.
Feel free to live with your parents, grandparents, sons and nephes under the same roof.
I know I would kill half of them if I had to endure such situation for more than three days.
In a way we're seeing a lot of that... Humanist narcisism and depression combined with identity politics. Not that all religions are the same,
and some have evolved over time. A common thread is people that have faith tend to be happier and more fulfilled in their lives. I don't
In a way we're seeing a lot of that... Humanist narcisism and
depression combined with identity politics. Not that all religions
are the same, and some have evolved over time. A common thread is
people that have faith tend to be happier and more fulfilled in their
lives. I don't
Don't know about that. It took me 3 years of Psychotherapy to undo the damage done by my Chatholic upbringing. Depression and panic attacks were my primary symptoms. That will happen when you're told as a child you are bad and born a sinner. To be forgivin you have to go in a dark booth and tell the priest how bad you were/are. That's pretty sick shit if you ask me.
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: Moondog to Vk3jed on Fri Aug 28 2020 10:43 am
In the US we have a lot of land and long distances to travel. Due to
the demands of a community, moving away to find better work is
required, and after some time the family you create and their
families they create take precedence over the family you left
behind. The same happens in a local area as well if whatever ties
the last generation had are not maintained.
Yeah, one thing I've noticed is that a lot of people in the US don't live in the state they were originally from. It seems people in the US move a lot.
I've been able to stay in the same state though, and currently I live & work in the same general area I grew up in.
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: HusTler to Andeddu on Wed Aug 26 2020 11:30 pm
The world will be better off without relgion. It's like taking a cancer out.
I would say that humanism in general isn't necessarily a religion,
because it doesn't have an innate higher power beyond the self. But
it's definitely similar, and far more dangerous imho.
I think that last part is probably more important than the first. Too
many people in western societies today lack the skill of being able to interact, negotiate and work with people they either don't like or agree with.
Yeah, one thing I've noticed is that a lot of people in the US
don't live in the state they were originally from. It seems people
in the US move a lot.
I've been able to stay in the same state though, and currently I
live & work in the same general area I grew up in.
maybe it just seems that way because of the region you are in. in my area people stick around the same region. the jobs are here so we dont have to relocate.
Western societies cannot afford to house elderly people in care homes due to a massive funding gap. I can foresee the old ways returning as the current methods are simply unsustainable.
Andeddu wrote to Tracker1 <=-
I would say that humanism in general isn't necessarily a religion,
because it doesn't have an innate higher power beyond the self. But
it's definitely similar, and far more dangerous imho.
Christopher Hitchens on Communism and Religion...
On 08-28-20 12:32, Nightfox wrote to Vk3jed <=-
I know some people from Brazil and have visited there a few times. It seems more common there for people to live with their parents until
they get married, etc., and it seems overall they're more
family-oriented and group-oriented there. And then one time while back
in the US, I was talking with a few people from Brazil here, and one
said she used to like to spend time with other people a lot in Brazil,
but while in the US, she started getting used to doing things on her
own and started to get more bothered when people would call her at
random times asking to hang out or go do something with her, etc..
On 08-28-20 10:43, Moondog wrote to Vk3jed <=-
In the US we have a lot of land and long distances to travel. Due to
the demands of a community, moving away to find better work is
required, and after some time the family you create and their families they create take precedence over the family you left behind. The same happens in a local area as well if whatever ties the last generation
had are not maintained. One of my cousin's wife 's hobbies is
geneology, and she did research tracing back my father's mother's
family. There's an old saying that your first friends are your
cousins, and in my case it was even more true! My grandmother and her borthers and sisters were a tight group, however their cousins on their father's side didn't talk or meet much. My great grandfather had
several brothers and sisters as well, however when they formed their
own families, they never gathered or socialized any more. While my friends may not have been direct or first cousins, several were seconds
or shared a common ancestor. One of our neighbors around the block had
a big party, and when I'd ask friends and acquaintences there how they know my neighbor, they'd ment ion a second cousin or other relative
that I would also recognize, then we'd figure out how many degrees of separation were between us.
It's just easier to be nice to people. If you're nice to people, most of the time, they're nice to you. I don't need some fear of eternal damnmation for that.
DaiTengu
You quoted me & seemed to be replying to me, but for some reason
your reply was addressed to Tracker1..
i'm using your msg editor
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: MRO to Nightfox on Sat Aug 29 2020 07:06 pm
You quoted me & seemed to be replying to me, but for some reason
your reply was addressed to Tracker1..
i'm using your msg editor
My message editor has no way of controlling who the message is posted to. That's done by Synchronet. The message editor just edits whatever file Synchronet tells it to edit.
In a way we're seeing a lot of that... Humanist narcisism and
depression combined with identity politics. Not that all religions
Don't know about that. It took me 3 years of Psychotherapy to undo the damage done by my Chatholic upbringing. Depression and panic attacks
I grew up catholic, went to catholic schools, but was a pretty terrible kid
It's just easier to be nice to people. If you're nice to people, most of the time, they're nice to you. I don't need some fear of eternal damnmation for
"You're Joseph Stalin, you've taken over Russia. You've been educated in a seminary in Georgia, by the way. Up until 1917, for hundereds of years, hundreds of millions of Russians have been told that the head of the state i a state that did that and fell into tyranny, and slavery, and famine and torture and then we'll be on a level playing field. As it is, all you've don is show that the idea of worship and the idea of credulity and the idea of servility and slavery to religion is a bad idea in the first place."
Western societies cannot afford to house elderly people in care homes due to massive funding gap. I can foresee the old ways returning as the current methods are simply unsustainable.
Western societies cannot afford to house elderly people in care homes
Yet there are a lot of elderly people living in care homes in the US.. I ha
the impression that the costs are usually paid by the individuals living th or their families, at least in the US. I don't think they're publicly funde in the US.
my mom was a manager at a nursing home. that shit was expensive. some resident's costs are over a thousand usd a day. i dont even know if insuranc even covers that type of care anymore. ---
You quoted me & seemed to be replying to me, but for some reason your reply was addressed to Tracker1..
i'm using your msg editor
---
Yet there are a lot of elderly people living in care homes in the US.. I had
the impression that the costs are usually paid by the individuals living there or their families, at least in the US. I don't think they're publicly funded in the US.
my mom was a manager at a nursing home. that shit was expensive. some resident's costs are over a thousand usd a day. i dont even know if insurance even covers that type of care anymore.
Never heard of him.
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: HusTler to Tracker1 on Sat Aug 29 2020 10:55 am
In a way we're seeing a lot of that... Humanist narcisism and
depression combined with identity politics. Not that all religions
are the same, and some have evolved over time. A common thread is
people that have faith tend to be happier and more fulfilled in their
lives. I don't
Don't know about that. It took me 3 years of Psychotherapy to undo the damage done by my Chatholic upbringing. Depression and panic attacks we my primary symptoms. That will happen when you're told as a child you a bad and born a sinner. To be forgivin you have to go in a dark booth an tell the priest how bad you were/are. That's pretty sick shit if you as me.
I grew up catholic, went to catholic schools, but was a pretty terrible kid believed in religion, or in any specific brand of religion.
It's just easier to be nice to people. If you're nice to people, most of the
DaiTengu
... I'm famous. That's my job.
I've been able to stay in the same state though, and currently I live & work in the same general area I grew up in.
maybe it just seems that way because of the region you are in. in my area p
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: mage to HusTler on Fri Aug 28 2020 03:53 pm
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: HusTler to Andeddu on Wed Aug 26 2020 11:30 pm
The world will be better off without relgion. It's like taking a cancer out.
maybe the world would be better without people like you who think in such ab
It's just easier to be nice to people. If you're nice to people, most
of the time, they're nice to you. I don't need some fear of eternal
damnmation for that.
It must be nice to be able to feel that way.
My experience is that if you are nice to people you get a stab in the back.
My most succesful relations are business relations that are dead cold corporative emotionless for some reason.
What are you talking about? Nursing Homes are completly full here in the US. It's almost impossible to find an empty bed. Can't afford? If you can't afford it the Government pays for it. It's called Medicaid. Ever hear of it? Unsustainable? Says who? You? Americans have always taken care of our own. That's who we are.
What are you talking about? Nursing Homes are completly full here in the US. It's almost impossible to find an empty bed. Can't afford? If you can't afford it the Government pays for it. It's called Medicaid. Ever hear of it? Unsustainable? Says who? You? Americans have always taken care of our own. That's who we are.
of income. Banks SS pensions, Mutal funds etc. If you still have money in the bank (In your name) or own property (Car, House, Stocks, Bonds or any other income) you will have to exhaust those funds/sell before uncle sam will pay. If you still own a home and need a Nursing Home the government has the right to take that home to pay your bill. And they WILL take your home. I've know many people that have lost their homes to the government that way. Word of advice. Plan for your future.
mattered and he saw no discrimination. No one disagreed at that time. When he finished and walked away, the other Indian guys mentioned he was in a high caste with great priviledge. I don't know if the guy was exaggerating, but he said the other guy had servants to carry him so he would not touch the ground. Obviously, he would see no difference in treatment.
Andeddu wrote to Gamgee <=-
Never heard of him.
You obviously don't do much reading.
He's one of the most celebrated intellects of the previous
generation.
Also, he was
speaking ill of Communism, likening it to a sick religion...
you'd have saw that if you had any reading comprehention.
Moondog wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
Damnation Alley was my gateway to post apocalyptic society. Ark II was another favorite. I watched some Planet of the Apes before that,
however I was too young to really appreciate some of it.
What's your point? Are you pissed for being Russian or raised in a Communist Country? Thanks for the history lesson but I was brought up hiding under desks at school for fear of being bombed by Russia. So yea. Commies are Evil people. What else is new?
What are you talking about? Nursing Homes are completly full here in the US. It's almost impossible to find an empty bed. Can't afford? If you can't afford it the Government pays for it. It's called Medicaid. Ever hear of it? Unsustainable? Says who? You? Americans have always taken care of our own. That's who we are.
Andeddu wrote to Gamgee <=-
Never heard of him.
You obviously don't do much reading.
I do a LOT of reading. Just not about leftist-whackjobs out on
the fringe of lunacy. Don't have any time for that kind of
nonsense. I'm happy that you do, though.
He's one of the most celebrated intellects of the previous
generation.
LOL! Yeah right.
Also, he was
speaking ill of Communism, likening it to a sick religion...
you'd have saw that if you had any reading comprehention.
I'd have "saw" it if I had "comprehention", eh?
Sounds like you need to do some reading too, of middle-school
textbooks.
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: Moondog to MRO on Sun Aug 30 2020 10:30 am
mattered and he saw no discrimination. No one disagreed at that time. W he finished and walked away, the other Indian guys mentioned he was in high caste with great priviledge. I don't know if the guy was exaggerating, but he said the other guy had servants to carry him so he would not touch the ground. Obviously, he would see no difference in treatment.
yeah and people will always find a way to spot differences and treat someone
Moondog wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
Damnation Alley was my gateway to post apocalyptic society. Ark II was another favorite. I watched some Planet of the Apes before that, however I was too young to really appreciate some of it.
Who'd win in a street fight? Snake Plissken or Hell Tanner?
My son is 17 and took a film appreciation class last year, and he's
taken a liking to cult classics. We watched "Escape from New York",
and he especially liked the intro.
"THE FUTURE - 1997."
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Moondog on Sat Aug 29 2020 07:45 am
Who'd win in a street fight? Snake Plissken or Hell Tanner?
Damnation Alley has been on my "to read" list for years. I should probably
My son is 17 and took a film appreciation class last year, and he's taken a liking to cult classics. We watched "Escape from New York",
and he especially liked the intro.
That's awesome. lots of people (myself included, sometimes) don't apprecia
"THE FUTURE - 1997."
Man, remember when that was "The Future" ?
DaiTengu
... First secure an independent income, then practice virtue.
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: HusTler to Andeddu on Sun Aug 30 2020 01:50 pm
What's your point? Are you pissed for being Russian or raised in a Communist Country? Thanks for the history lesson but I was brought up hid under desks at school for fear of being bombed by Russia. So yea. Commies are Evil people. What else is new?
The point is that you do not require a divine supreme being to believe in, i order to have a religion. So called "secular" ideologies are every bit as religious as those that claim to be.
Never heard of him.
You obviously don't do much reading. He's one of the most celebrated intelle of the previous generation. Also, he was speaking ill of Communism, likening to a sick religion... you'd have saw that if you had any reading comprehenti
It can be easier if you shift your assets into a trust in your early 50s
as well, long before you are close to that point. It takes some legal
and accounting work to set these things up, but is often worth the
effort. Another point is to not buy anything (such as a car) you
wouldn't outright own, to avoid debt once you're in your 50's.
Also, establish trustees that you *really* can trust and/or paid
fiduciary services.
Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer or accountant, so seek professional advice
if you consider the above.
So you made a comment to me without actually reading the
relatively small paragraph I had pasted onto my post.
I did read it, and looked up the whacko (on Wikipedia). Thus my
comments above. Yup.
Re: Re: Neuralink
By: Tracker1 to Andeddu on Mon Aug 31 2020 04:18 pm
It can be easier if you shift your assets into a trust in your early 50s as well, long before you are close to that point. It takes some legal and accounting work to set these things up, but is often worth the effort. Another point is to not buy anything (such as a car) you wouldn't outright own, to avoid debt once you're in your 50's.
Also, establish trustees that you *really* can trust and/or paid fiduciary services.
Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer or accountant, so seek professional advice if you consider the above.
I reckon you're probably right with those loopholes. I don't really begrudge those carry out creative accounting to avoid having their assets seized... after all, I'd rather give my assets to my children rather than the state, a the state looks after those with nothing to give... so why should they give anything? I've read you posts on this matter and agree with what you've said There is no way we can continue down the route of nursing homes for those wh CANNOT afford it. My worry is what will happen to those who do not have families capable or willing to look after them. Will they just be left homel in miserable destitution? I hope private charities can help out. Bleak times ahead.
Well, if it helps, private and religions charities have been helping out elders non stop with this COVID-19 crisis.
Some customers of the clinic I work for or the store I own stopped receiving their pension altogether. One kept receiving healthcare from her insurance but no pension, resulting in her being able to get a doctor but no food (!) Some church sponsored programs have been keeping this people afloat.
I have also seen friends support friends who could not afford the groceries or the rent. For sure this is the first year I have had to lend money to somebody so he could do his grocery trip of the week (!). I don't trust human's goodwill in the long run, but I hope charity can help us short term.
I don't trust Elon Musk in general, nevermind letting that fucking nutjob put things in my head-meat. The guy couldn't even put crumple zones in the Cybertruck. It's a deathtrap.
I have a parafarmacy. Most of what I sell are vitamins and suplements. Lots of higyene and cosmetics (soap and the like too). It is not exactly a great business but it supplements my sysadmining and magazining.
That sounds cool. Hey, as long as it pays the bills isn't it. Do you make y own stuff or do you buy it from someone else? Craft soaps seems to be someth of a hit these days.
health, etc... a lot of us will buy into and become invested in the idea as it will, in a more mature stage of development, provide benefits to those who are fully abled.
I wanted to get a Neuralink so that I could get an Arduino board with a CANBUS-Shield connected to my cars ODBII port so that I could neurally interface with my car. The most the thing is gonna realistically be able to is read signals and send them to other places via Bluetooth. I want an interface hard wire plug option.
No shit? Wish I knew WTF you were talking about. ;-)
... There's little worse than being peerless in a peer-review system.
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