• Sorry, it attached instead of copied. Trying again:

    From John Dovey@2:460/256 to All on Mon May 17 07:55:22 2021
    Glad to see you, All!

    Sorry, it attached instead of copied. Trying again:

    *Future Messaging Proposal
    John Dovey (BoonDock 4:92/1, 4:920/1) **dovey.john@gmail.com*
    16 May 2021
    *Background
    *I've loved online messaging and files for as long as it's been possible to do so, starting in the mid 1980s with dial-up bulletin board systems, moving to FidoNet shortly afterwards as first a point and then establishing my own board. I made the shift along with the rest of the world to Usenet and then Email. I established and started running an email list in the early 90s (still running in 2021) which iterated through all the various changes in that technology. And then cell phones arrived and at first SMS messages (which were free) then the various messaging apps, in fact writing one of the very first (called Sticky Notes) whose source was the inspiration and basis (from what I could determine) for ICQ. I dabbled with ISeeU (the first video conferencing app) and with Mixit, ICQ, QQ and a plethora of others. Currently on my phone I have WhatsApp, Signal, Telegram and a few more obscure ones.
    I used Napster, MySpace and various Torrent clients.
    I've used the online forums epitomized by phpBBS and all its variations. Not to mention Twitter, Facebook, Instagram and TikTok. This just to establish that I'm besotted with online communication and file sharing. I've investigated (and implemented to various degrees of success) different networks types, including "SneakerNet" and Mesh Networks.
    *Motivation
    *A short while ago, I decided to start a BBS again as part of investigation into a distributed messaging and resource sharing project that I'm exploring together with a colleague living in the UK who works across rural Africa, in some of the most disconnected communities it's possible to imagine. My focus is on local communities in Panama who are almost as isolated.
    I turned to BBS technology, together with FidoNet (FTN) and QWKnet primarily because it's got a few key features. The important ones for us are primarily;
    1 Availability of free software
    2 Software for almost any platform, including some of the oldest and simplest (DOS), as well as some of the most modern (RasberryPI).
    3 Ease and simplicity of setup and operation
    4 Simplicity of networking messages
    5 Anarchic by design ie not controlled by anyone
    6 Store and Forward operation.

    *Discovery
    *I have evaluated a wide range of software and technology that is currently available and have come to some conclusions
    1 There are a few stand-out pieces of software and some incredible people involved in this world. They do this as a passion and contribute their expertise and tone without any more recompense then the acknowledgment that they receive. My thanks for out to them, because as always, we stand on the shoulder of giants.

    2. The current iteration of BBS systems is pretty much dominated by Synchronet and Mystic. There are a variety of others, lots of older ones which have been resurrected and some brand new ones (Talisman for example) which are newly written.
    The vast majority of the Internet aware BBS software and traffic though is based on Rob Swindell's work, with even Talisman using parts of it to fill in the gaps. There are also numerous older programs and utilities which are either still going strong or being used in the original form, such as BinkD, MultiMail, various versions of Fossil drivers, the SEXYZ communications app, various tossers and mailers and bridges and front doors and nodelist compilers and a variety of each as well as others.
    3. What underlies all these disparate pieces of software is a series of old ideas. Some really good principles and realization of those principles and some things which just aren't in tune with the modern way of doing things.
    The most glaring omission is a simple app for Android or IOS. There are "point" systems (such as GoldEd+) and the configurations that they require, but they are at best clunky and difficult.

    *Vision

    First Principles
    *I believe that the requirements and usage for the majority of people has shifted.

    *** [Netmail-to-Telegram address: 474405162@2:460/256]

    ... Tag, you are IT!
    --- tg BBS v0.6.4
    * Origin: Fido by Telegram BBS from Stas Mishchenkov (2:460/256)
  • From August Abolins@2:221/1.58 to John Dovey on Sun May 23 17:25:00 2021
    Hello John Dovey!

    ** On Monday 17.05.21 - 07:55, John Dovey wrote to All:

    Future Messaging Proposal - 16 May 2021

    This just to establish that I'm besotted with online
    communication and file sharing.

    I'm sure much of what you described represents a similar
    experience that many (here) have besotted.

    I've investigated (and implemented to various degrees of
    success) different networks types, including "SneakerNet"
    and Mesh Networks.

    The latter two sound like good candidates of a good story that
    you're hold back from us!

    ..a distributed messaging and resource sharing project
    that I'm exploring together with a colleague living in the
    UK who works across rural Africa, in some of the most
    disconnected communities it's possible to imagine. My
    focus is on local communities in Panama who are almost as
    isolated.

    Before AOL managed to infest everyone's homes, I yearned to
    popularize dialup BBSing in my community primarily wrt to
    messaging. I had modest success (within 10 months) with about
    10 regular local callers who were chiefly interested in the
    email gateway that I arranged with a hub located in another
    province. I was poised to expand from 2 lines to 8. The
    underground wires into the home are still here.

    The current iteration of BBS systems is pretty much
    dominated by Synchronet and Mystic.

    Being still currently developed, they can adjust to the needs
    and interests that people ask about.

    What underlies all these disparate pieces of software is a
    series of old ideas. Some really good principles and
    realization of those principles and some things which just
    aren't in tune with the modern way of doing things.

    Ah.. the modern way of doing things. Tablets and smartphones
    come to mind, don't they? :)

    The most glaring omission is a simple app for Android or
    IOS. There are "point" systems (such as GoldEd+) and the
    configurations that they require, but they are at best
    clunky and difficult.

    HotdogED and Aftershock are also a couple of valiant attempts.

    There's a nice presentation and comparison of those here:

    http://ambrosia60.dd-dns.de/fidonet/fidonet-on-smartphones.htm

    BUT support/development for them is dubious.

    But of the entire list of nodes on the latest nodelists,
    there is a bare handful which advertise an actual phone
    number.

    I think it's pretty cool that support for using a contactable
    phone number could still be useful even in some of the earlier
    communities were the copper hasn't been pulled out, yet.

    the monolithic centralized services.. frm Twitter to
    WhatsApp and everything else in between. .. have arisen as
    commercial purveyors of other peoples information and
    treat their customers as the product. From my reading and
    experience I suspect that it was an almost prescient
    vision which formulated the concept of FidoNet; one truly
    before it's time.

    I doubt that Tom Jennings and first developers had a prescient
    vision of a future in which commercialization of people's use
    for messaging and data-mining of its contents would emerge as
    to influence the design of fidonet technology. ;) The
    greatest influence was simply reduction of long-distance costs.

    In my opinion, FidoNet at its core is a store-and-forward
    system which was meant to resilient and flexible enough to
    route around outages and breakdowns and unreliable links.

    Absolutely.

    The first nodelist could apparently jot handle more than
    250 nodes, and the zone/net/hub/node system arose almost
    as a kludge to handle the growth to over 19000 entries in
    the nodelist at its peak.

    I was not aware (or I forgot) about the initial 250 node
    limitation. Interesting.

    When I established my newest board, I was invited to join
    my local zone and facilitate the local region, with the
    assumption that all my traffic would, as is traditional,
    route through the region to the Zone hub and then onto the
    "backbone".

    Ah.. but netmail and echomail are two different elements to the
    equation. I think the "tradition" to stick with documented
    (nodelist) topolgy pertained to netmail. Echomail arrived
    later, and as certain echos were only available from certain
    systems, sourcing them or finding a feed, could be under the
    complete discretion of the sysop processing those messages.

    As I proceeded to set this up, I found it completely
    trivial to add feeds to and from Europe, Russia and New
    Zealand for conferences carried there and not within my
    Zone. I could also have picked up all my conferences from
    one of those and simply ignore everyone else in my Zone. I
    thought that was a little ride though. It is only
    tradition that restricted me to using the normal routing.

    The topology as arranged in a fidonet nodelist is still
    basically just a geographical map of systems all tidily
    organized into their specific regions. But sysops can still
    route, feed, and make crash connections any way that works.

    And I'd like to add: Total user selection of what they
    want to see, and technical decisions where and how it is
    routed.

    For that to work, users need to be informed of what's
    available. Unless a user understands what the OTHERNETS, ELIST
    or ECHO_ADS are, and how to interpret the "area" summaries in
    STATS, then the echos remain obscure and get little attention.
    The areas list in the FIDOGAZETTE publication is pretty good
    though. But again, users need to know that's where to look.

    I'm not truly an expert in all of this stuff, more a
    generalist and an enthusiastic amateur, so please take
    that into consideration.

    I haven't heard much expertise from the assumed experts, so
    anything sounds good at this point! :D

    What I believe is imperative is that the barrier to entry
    needs to be lowered drastically. It should be as simple as
    clicking on a download button and filling in a few fields.

    Entry by whom? Sysops? Users? Probably both. I concur!
    Some sysops (particular those that host and promote othernets)
    do a pretty good job promoting their othernet and BBSes on
    dedicated websites.

    We need to think in terms of Mesh networking, not some
    sort of star topology mindset. I'm not necessarily talking
    about the transport layer, but the arrangement of the
    network.

    I bet the mesh|star|fidoweb approach has probably taken place.
    As I understand it, some top echomail movers already have
    established redundant connections and let fidonet's dupe-
    checking technology take care of things.

    By this I mean that someone should choose to join the
    network and connect automatically to peers. These could be
    geographically distant but close in network terms or vice
    versa.

    As already stated above, I think that is already the approach
    wrt echomail. Now, as to "connect automatically" ..do you mean
    some kind of AI that would make or suggest those arrangements?

    Scenario 1: There is a remote village, physically distant
    from any network connection whatsoever. [...] The point of
    this scenario is to illustrate that the current concept of
    dialup BBS (now shifted to Telnet et al) is in some ways a
    shift away from the roots of FidoNet. This disconnected
    store and forward model is what the network was designed
    for.

    I never thought of what fidonet has become that way.
    Interesting point. However, I'm not sure if your arguing in
    favour of store-n-forward or against it.

    My proposal is that we need to look for a different
    network authentication and routing model. One that handles
    the instant connectivity just well as it does the
    completely irregular and unreliable links.

    Ah.. AI enters fidonet? That would be cool!

    It's also become clear that there is reason to be
    concerned about the platforms that provide the major
    communications at the moment. We've seen these platforms
    being used in places and at tokes where they've made an
    incredible difference, such as during the Arab Spring, the
    Hong Kong protests and then during various natural
    disasters etc. We've also seen them be cut off completely
    by governments or by the providers to whole communities or
    to individuals.

    Yes.. turning "off" those platforms seems to be incredibly
    easy. And even shutting down whole internet trunks into and out
    of a country does not seem impossible. And if fidonet rides
    within those trunks, then fidonet is cut off too.

    The anarchic nature of FidoNet was designed to prevent
    that. I'm also pretty convinced that when it was designed
    the initial intention of the Internet/DARPAnet played a
    part that is to survive a nuclear attack. .. We need to
    return to that.

    I would use the term ad-hoc vs anarchic. ;) As for Internet/
    DARPAnet being designed to survive a nuclear attack.. I doubt
    that was able to be tested! :D However and EMP-based attack
    could neutralize a variety of electronics, that's for sure. In
    that case, not even ad-hoc networks would be immune.

    One of the largest concerns people have expressed is worry
    over "encryption". What they truly mean is not encryption
    per se, but privacy. That, in my opinion, shouldn't be
    part of the network but a software layer on top. PGP comes
    to mind as a good model. Building that in to clients
    should be a best practice and part of the standard.

    I've heard that in the recent releases of Thunderbird,
    encryption support is now built-in c/o Enigma.

    Some fidonet systems indicate encryption (ie privacy) by
    designating an ENC flag in their nodelist entry. It seems more
    prevalent in Z2 though. Ultimately, privacy is only possible
    between users who both subscribe to end-point systems that fly
    the ENC flag.

    It seems that most people establish a BBS primarily for
    their own use. That is that they are the primary user, and
    additional users are pretty sparse. It's for this reason
    (and others) that I'd suggest that the focus should be
    catering for this. [...] They could be collaborative
    efforts arranged on the fly. [...] Once a user or system
    has Registerd themselves on the app, there should be an
    automated process where it announces them to the network
    at large and where the information gets collated via a
    distributed database of some sort.

    Isn't that what places like TelnetBBS Guide and
    ipingthereforeim try to do? The latter system seems to monitor
    the liveness of every telnet bbs pretty much in realt-time by
    frequent reports.

    Both systems have "latest bbses added" ..or something like
    that.

    The SBBS BBS list is an example of one way of doing this.

    That list is amazing. It's the only one that summarizes all the
    services on a particular BBS in a simple at-a-glance table. I
    personally think the "Networks" is particularly useful.

    The various message formats are archaic and ridiculous in
    a lot of ways. There should be a standard implementation
    that is accessible on all devices.

    Most sysops stop at JAM format. And that is primarily limited
    to desktop pcs. Sysops don't seem to have a smartphone/tablet
    concern.

    My personal preference would be for SQLite due to it's
    ease of use and ubiquitous distribution (how many billions
    of android and iOS devices have it Pre-installed?)

    If SQLite is already built into android devices, it seems
    shameful not to capitalize on it.

    The display format! ANSI for crying out loud! Surely we
    can do better than that? Why about send SVG commands which
    are rendered on the device? Maybe using the Cairo graphics
    libraries or their equivalent? I know RIPTerm was an
    early. Semi-proprietary version of this.

    All that is graphics stuff beyond my tech knowledge. I still
    struggle with hearing the limitations of implementing UTF-8 in
    fidonet. :(

    Maybe it's time to develop a new standard which is simple
    and easy to implement? It beggars belief that we are using
    software that is actually designed with VT100 terminals in
    mind.

    To a certain extent, plain-ol' text is the best, especially for
    message content. Everything else is fluff. ;) *BOLD*
    _Underline_ #inverse# and /italic/ are fine tools, but that's
    about as far as things go in fidonet.

    Having said this, nothing prevents us from separating the
    display layer from the transmission layer. If we design
    the protocol sufficiently well, then that could also be
    relatively agnostic, or at least provide fallback options.
    For example, negotiation with the client with "new RIP"
    preferred, falling back to in descending order, Rendered
    SVG, PNG, HTML, ANSI and ASCII.

    THAT would indeed be very interesting! But how would the least
    common denominator system in the network deal with that,
    especially if their software is from the archaic/depricated
    vault?

    Seems to me that a new fidonet of modern (still-in-development)
    systems would be the best route, or.. at the very least,
    dedicated echos for this experimentation and growth.

    Telnet. Ask anyone under thirty who is not in IT to use
    telnet and you may as well have spoken in a foreign
    language.

    NOT if you steer those people to TelenetBBS Guide! ;) They
    will at least think that telnet is "the little box on the
    screen" that allows "connection" to a BBS from that list. :D

    Composing messages. Make it something like Markdown so
    it's also agnostic and the formatting is deferred to the
    client.

    Syncronet, OpenXP, and now Fido2telebot achieve some of this!

    Images. There aren't any. This is probably the biggest
    reason for the poor uptake after the lack of clients for
    devices.

    Yeah.. the newer generations all seem to expect visual candy.

    I'd suggest though that rather than duplicate http for
    this, [...] possibly making them "out of band". [...]
    which render independently of the message..

    Telegram's solution is kinda like that. It works well. On the
    flipside of that, the Fido2telebot renders an http:// link of
    an image direct from the host-fidonet BBS.

    Images and video etc are, of course, big attractions to
    users (just look at the growth of Instagram and TikTok)

    OMG, Tiktok content can be so mindless! If our users are to be
    gleened from that demographic then fidonet is indeed doomed!
    :/ Furthermore, some people tell me that Instagram is where
    most people hang out. BUT again, that is not the best way to
    gauge the relevance of images in fidonet. Some easy support of
    image content would be nice, but hopefully it wouldn't be a
    feature that takes away from the salient nature of text
    messaging.

    They're also bandwidth hogs. I think this is where the
    "control by the user" needs to be rigorously built in,
    there is a simple and enforceable way to select where and
    how images are accepted.

    It's the bandwidth hogs that concern me. An out of band
    solution sounds pretty good!

    Spam. Spam kills message board and conferences if not
    killed instantly. That's why there must be some mechanism
    to deal with it. Maybe ...

    I don't think that fidonet has had any major issues with that.
    The weakest holes in the wall for that are systems that gate
    messages into and out of newsgroups. But the buck usually
    stops at the sysop's system and can be dealt with fairly
    readily if a sysop is reachable and paying attention.

    Reputation. [...] for example, if you're reputation is low
    (or your rank is 'Noob'), there are only certain things
    you can do, or certain conferences you can join. The
    longer you are part of the system, the more you
    participate in certain activities etc, the more tour
    reputation/rank can change.

    Hmmm, sounds like the social-ranking system in China. LOL.

    If, for example, no messages are accepted from noobs,
    [...]

    That's already the filter built into Fido2telebot. The user has
    to "talk" to the bot manually to "register" to the network. If
    that fails, then their posts never enter the network. Not so
    in fidonet however. A spammer, or troll can just move to
    another BBS in the network.

    [...] hit-and-run spammers who use images won't be able to
    generate new user IDs to post them. If there is an
    algorithm that sees a user posting the same content
    hundreds of times, or hundreds of messages from the same
    address, or other variations on the theme, then they can
    be flagged as potentially spammers and handled
    programmatically.

    Uh-oh.. so much for all the stats and monthly rules postings
    that sysops and their bots love to post, especially in the
    echos that no one is reading! LOL

    I believe this is vital however, that it be programmed in
    and that the rules are enforced programmatically and not
    by people, as it's less prone to all sorts of nonsense we
    see on existing platforms. [...] there's nothing to stop
    him ignoring the flags and accepting those messages, but
    also nothing stopping all the other nodes from both
    refusing to accept them as well as refusing to forward
    them on.

    Fidonoet/othernet systems don't seem to be infested by
    unsolicited/automated spam so much. Owners of an othernet or
    syops carrying an echo can already react pretty quickly and cut
    off problem people or other systems.

    I have numerous other thoughts, but I hope this is enough
    to generate some debate.

    Hey.. keep them coming.
    --
    ../|ug
    --- OpenXP 5.0.50
    * Origin: FUTURE4FIDO = https://t.me/joinchat/SV_BQ0XcbSRoP4bt (2:221/1.58)
  • From Boondock@4:920/1 to August Abolins on Mon May 24 09:05:54 2021
    Re: Re: Future Messaging Proposal
    By: August Abolins to John Dovey on Sun May 23 2021 17:25:00

    I've investigated (and implemented to various degrees of
    success) different networks types, including "SneakerNet"
    and Mesh Networks.

    The latter two sound like good candidates of a good story that
    you're hold back from us!

    <smile> Sure. If you want stories, I've got plenty :-) Some are maybe even relevent to this echo. Here's one:

    Somewhere around 1988, I was busy with a COBOL Programming course. I'd gotten sponsered onto the course by a Gvt program for Veterans after having taken part in a competetive "aptitude" test so the cost of the course as covered but not much else. So there I was, doing programming stuff during the day on mainframe type computers, and hungry for info on these new-fangled PC things but with no easy way to get access to any.
    Then I discovered that the local university computer labs had plenty available. Only for students though of course. I quickly figured out a way of loitering near the door until someone came out, then catching the door to be able to sneak in and start using them to teach muself about such exciting topics as DOS. It wasnt' too long and I's discovered that it was possible to do things like log in to the New York Public Library and browse their catalogue... all the way from South Africa. That was a thrillingdiscovery. let me tell you!
    After some time, I discovered the newsgroups. Starting with Usenet of course.

    My fellow students quickly discovered that I had an advantage. When we were given assignments or there were questions, I'd disappear and come back the next day with all sorts of answers and eventually they cornered me and I explained about the newsgroups where there were all sorts of interesting people who would answer questions and help out at the drop of a hat.

    After that, I became the "hub" that collected messages from my fellow students (on floppy disks) and then I would upload their posts (as them) and download the latest posts back onto their floppy disks.. ie a literal sneakernet.

    I used this same model in later years for various other projects I got involved in, but the big breakthrough was the FTN tech because it was possible to take actual "packets" and not have to do all kinds of interactive stuff with individual accounts etc.

    One of the greatest advantages to all this was that it wasn't "FidoNet" but rather a completely private network that just used the technology. One particular project was impossible to achieve because of the typical military paranoia, until my solution showed that the transfer of messages was completely secure because it relied on "couriers" so the messages never travelled over any insecure lines, they were only sent and read on secured computers that were physically seperated from ANY comm lines. We also used PGP to both sign and encrypt every message before "transmission". Just as a side-note. This happened while we were under embargo from almost every country in the world so we had very little access to anything..

    Any way,
    I think this is at least tangentially relevant to the discusion.

    JD

    Boondock
    ===
    BoonDock
    El Gato de Fuego - elgato.synchronetbbs.org 4:92/1 - Pedasi/Panama



    ... Crisis management works beautifully until an actual crisis occurs.
    --- SBBSecho 3.12-Linux
    * Origin: El Gato de Fuego - elgato.synchronetbbs.org (4:920/1)
  • From August Abolins@2:221/1.58 to John Dovey on Mon May 24 20:52:00 2021
    Hello John!

    ** On Monday 24.05.21 - 09:05, you wrote:

    <smile> Sure. If you want stories, I've got plenty :-)
    Some are maybe even relevent to this echo. Here's one:

    Somewhere around 1988, I was busy with a COBOL Programming
    course..

    [...]

    ..It wasnt' too long and I's discovered that it was
    possible to do things like log in to the New York Public
    Library and browse their catalogue... all the way from
    South Africa. That was a thrillingdiscovery. let me tell
    you!

    Indeed! I can relate to that.

    My fellow students quickly discovered that I had an
    advantage. When we were given assignments or there were
    questions, I'd disappear and come back the next day with
    all sorts of answers and eventually they cornered me and I
    explained about the newsgroups..

    Ha! You just couldn't resist getting the attention of being
    someone who found the secret treasure.

    After that, I became the "hub" that collected messages from
    my fellow students (on floppy disks) and then I would
    upload their posts (as them) and download the latest posts
    back onto their floppy disks.. ie a literal sneakernet.

    Wow.. I can imagine the process, the preparation and logistics
    of it all.

    ..but the big breakthrough was the FTN tech because it was
    possible to take actual "packets" and not have to do all
    kinds of interactive stuff with individual accounts etc.

    One of the greatest advantages to all this was that it
    wasn't "FidoNet" but rather a completely private network
    that just used the technology.

    BBS tech utilizing FTN tech was gathering momemtum for private
    (business) networks, clubs, etc. I thought that was
    fascinating as well.

    One particular project was impossible to achieve because of
    the typical military paranoia, until my solution showed
    that the transfer of messages was completely secure because
    it relied on "couriers" so the messages never travelled
    over any insecure lines, they were only sent and read on
    secured computers that were physically seperated from ANY
    comm lines.

    I had a similar situation when working on military projects.
    Transfers to distant labs was only arranged with recorded media
    via human courier. Even the updated "code" for surveillance
    sonar products for Sweden/Norway went by the fastest courier
    available. It seemed like a huge expense when it was just for
    a couple of what I think were just 256K eproms at a time.

    There was however one exception when we could establish direct
    dialup links with a sister developer located domestically. That
    saved a LOT of time when programming code needed to be
    reviewed, or when compiled binary segments needed to be tested
    fast.

    We also used PGP to both sign and encrypt every
    message before "transmission". Just as a side-note. This
    happened while we were under embargo from almost every
    country in the world so we had very little access to
    anything..

    Now you've done it. That got me hunting. A little bit of
    research revealed a series of footprints of your S.Africa
    existence and at other domains over the years.

    Is this one still good:

    6C9E 70BB 4D1C AA0C 4E2A C010 493E 06F8 0DCB F508

    It's the only one (albiet 6 years old) that matches your email
    address.

    One also has a picture attached, but it's older.

    Any way,
    I think this is at least tangentially relevant to the discusion.

    It was a good read. Thanks. Sometimes a modest journey through
    the past can inspire some new ideas for the future. A little
    relatable digression adds to the conversation.

    --
    ../|ug
    --- OpenXP 5.0.50
    * Origin: FUTURE4FIDO = https://t.me/joinchat/SV_BQ0XcbSRoP4bt (2:221/1.58)
  • From John Dovey@4:920/69 to August Abolins on Mon May 24 20:37:50 2021
    Re: stories: networks types, including "SneakerNet"
    By: August Abolins to John Dovey on Mon May 24 2021 20:52:00

    Indeed! I can relate to that.

    LOL.

    Ha! You just couldn't resist getting the attention of being
    someone who found the secret treasure.
    Nah, more that it was a team effort and I couldn't convince them that I suddenly knew all kinds of stuff ....

    BBS tech utilizing FTN tech was gathering momemtum for private
    (business) networks, clubs, etc. I thought that was
    fascinating as well.
    Yup. I did a small consulting job for a pharmacy chain that used it for updating their catalogs and stock.

    I had a similar situation when working on military projects.
    Transfers to distant labs was only arranged with recorded media
    via human courier. Even the updated "code" for surveillance
    sonar products for Sweden/Norway went by the fastest courier
    available. It seemed like a huge expense when it was just for
    a couple of what I think were just 256K eproms at a time.

    There is NO paranoia like military paranoia...

    Now you've done it. That got me hunting. A little bit of
    research revealed a series of footprints of your S.Africa
    existence and at other domains over the years.
    LOL. I think you're just bored...
    Is this one still good:
    No. It's supposed to expire and I need to recreat my "ring of trust".

    It was a good read. Thanks. Sometimes a modest journey through
    the past can inspire some new ideas for the future. A little
    relatable digression adds to the conversation.
    I hope so.

    ALl the best
    John

    John
    ===
    * El Gato de Fuego * 4:92/69 (FidoNet) * Pedasi, Panama


    John

    ... A communist is a socialist without a sense of humour.
    --- SBBSecho 3.11-Win32
    * Origin: El Gato de Fuego - Pedasi, Panama (4:920/69)