• Pi5 ... Money Spent In A Niche With Too Many Good Competitors ?

    From 56g.1173@3:770/3 to All on Sun Dec 17 21:09:40 2023
    Scanning Amazon for "x86 single board computers" I got :

    youyeetoo X1 - x86 Windows Linux Single Board Computer with Intel
    Celeron N5105 - Mini PC $119 (bare board)

    WayPonDEV youyeetoo X1 X86 Single Board Computer - A 64bit Windows
    10/11/Linux Mini PC $119 (looks a lot like the above)

    Beelink Mini PC, Intel 12th Gen Alder Lake- N95(up to 3.4GHz),
    8GB DDR4 RAM 256GB PCIe 1X SSD, Mini $179 (boxed)

    C-Box-M2 Mini PC Aluminum Body 11th gen Intel N5105,
    Windows 11 Pro, 8GB RAM 256G SSD, $129 (boxed)

    NVIDIA Jetson Nano Developer Kit
    $149 (bare board)

    N40 Mini PC Fanless Celeron N4020 (up to 2.8GHz) with 4GB
    DDR4/64GB eMMC RAM Mini Desktop $109 (boxed)

    And others ......

    Price/performance-wise, these are all good competitors
    for the Pi5. Small, fairly powerful, the x86 ones will
    run Winders if you're dumb enough (don't expect vast
    performance however).

    There's a problem here for Pi fans ... that niche is
    now getting crowded. ARM chips are fine, but many
    of the Intel chips offer plenty of power AND potential
    WindersStuff compatibility.

    Something like the Pi-Zero 2W & Pi-3/4 still have a
    relatively open niche. They are not intended to compete
    with more 'real' PCs, but are 'powerful/cheap enough' for a
    lot of applications. Alas RPI has put a lot of money/effort
    into something which is just an also-ran ... one of many
    'minimal PCs'. Did they waste their money ? Will they be
    in biz a year or two from now ? The NAME is attractive,
    but that only goes just so far.

    Just sayin' ...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Brian Gregory@3:770/3 to All on Mon Dec 18 02:18:42 2023
    On 18/12/2023 02:09, 56g.1173 wrote:
    There's a problem here for Pi fans ... that niche is
    now getting crowded. ARM chips are fine, but many
    of the Intel chips offer plenty of power AND potential
    WindersStuff compatibility.

    Something like the Pi-Zero 2W & Pi-3/4 still have a
    relatively open niche. They are not intended to compete
    with more 'real' PCs, but are 'powerful/cheap enough' for a
    lot of applications. Alas RPI has put a lot of money/effort
    into something which is just an also-ran ... one of many
    'minimal PCs'. Did they waste their money ? Will they be
    in biz a year or two from now ? The NAME is attractive,
    but that only goes just so far.

    Just sayin' ...

    No other ARM board comes close to having as much support.

    A cheaper or more powerful ARM board where the OS never gets updates
    and/or that has features that simply never work right is not an
    alternative to a Pi.

    --
    Brian Gregory (in England).

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  • From Pancho@3:770/3 to Brian Gregory on Mon Dec 18 12:44:50 2023
    On 12/18/23 02:18, Brian Gregory wrote:


    No other ARM board comes close to having as much support.

    A cheaper or more powerful ARM board where the OS never gets updates
    and/or that has features that simply never work right is not an
    alternative to a Pi.


    This is true at the moment with the Orange Pi 5, but there are promises
    of new GPU drivers such as Panthor being released which might change this.

    <https://www.phoronix.com/news/Panthor-DRM-Newer-Mali>

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Pancho@3:770/3 to All on Mon Dec 18 12:40:30 2023
    On 12/18/23 02:09, 56g.1173 wrote:
    Scanning Amazon for "x86 single board computers" I got :

    youyeetoo X1 - x86 Windows Linux Single Board Computer with Intel
    Celeron N5105 - Mini PC   $119   (bare board)

    WayPonDEV youyeetoo X1 X86 Single Board Computer - A 64bit Windows 10/11/Linux Mini PC  $119  (looks a lot like the above)

    Beelink Mini PC, Intel 12th Gen Alder Lake- N95(up to 3.4GHz),
    8GB DDR4 RAM 256GB PCIe 1X SSD, Mini   $179  (boxed)

    C-Box-M2 Mini PC Aluminum Body 11th gen Intel N5105,
    Windows 11 Pro, 8GB RAM 256G SSD,  $129  (boxed)

    NVIDIA Jetson Nano Developer Kit
    $149  (bare board)

    N40 Mini PC Fanless Celeron N4020 (up to 2.8GHz) with 4GB
    DDR4/64GB eMMC RAM Mini Desktop  $109  (boxed)

    And others ......

    Price/performance-wise, these are all good competitors
    for the Pi5. Small, fairly powerful, the x86 ones will
    run Winders if you're dumb enough (don't expect vast
    performance however).

    There's a problem here for Pi fans ... that niche is
    now getting crowded. ARM chips are fine, but many
    of the Intel chips offer plenty of power AND potential
    WindersStuff compatibility.


    In 2014 I bought an AMD Kabini 5350 CPU x86 + Motherboard for about £50.
    The same price as the rPi. The AMD Kabini was massively faster than the
    rPi, about level with the rPi4 which came out 5 years later.

    Intel/AMD will lower prices to compete with the rPi5 or rk3558 SoC
    systems. Now, the x86 N95 is about level performance with the rk3558s
    based oPi5.

    Something like the Pi-Zero 2W & Pi-3/4 still have a
    relatively open niche. They are not intended to compete
    with more 'real' PCs, but are 'powerful/cheap enough' for a
    lot of applications. Alas RPI has put a lot of money/effort
    into something which is just an also-ran ... one of many
    'minimal PCs'. Did they waste their money ? Will they be
    in biz a year or two from now ? The NAME is attractive,
    but that only goes just so far.

    Just sayin' ...

    The rPi5 is a real PC. If it gets proper GPU drivers, the oPi5 will be
    even better. The Apple M1 SoC is going head to head with intel 86 PCs.

    So rather than the rPi becoming an also-ran, they, or small Arm SoC
    systems like them, look to be the future.

    Try the rPi5, it is good. Pi OS is good. I've been looking at Unix like
    Windows PC alternatives since Sun Sparcs in the early 90s, I'm more
    impressed now, than I have ever been in the past.

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  • From David Taylor@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Mon Dec 18 18:38:08 2023
    On 18/12/2023 17:42, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    I am finally abandoning Intel slowly device by device. This PC will
    probably be the last device as I need to run legacy XP and programs in a VM.

    I'm happily running Windows programs on the Twister OS, on a Raspberry Pi 400.

    Worth a look. The program (PlanePlotter) uses network IO and no special devices.
    --
    Cheers,
    David
    Web: https://www.satsignal.eu

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Pancho on Mon Dec 18 17:42:36 2023
    On 18/12/2023 12:40, Pancho wrote:
    So rather than the rPi becoming an also-ran, they, or small Arm SoC
    systems like them, look to be the future.

    I think that is the case.
    My friend, who used to work for ARM simply said 'we had no money to make
    a big chip, so we made a small one, we kept its simple and worked hard
    on a comprehensive instruction set, and gave it lots of registers so
    that most instrictions were very fast and in-chip. It was streets ahead
    of an 8080.

    Try the rPi5, it is good. Pi OS is good. I've been looking at Unix like Windows PC alternatives since Sun Sparcs in the early 90s, I'm more
    impressed now, than I have ever been in the past.

    I am finally abandoning Intel slowly device by device. This PC will
    probably be the last device as I need to run legacy XP and programs in a VM.

    --
    All political activity makes complete sense once the proposition that
    all government is basically a self-legalising protection racket, is
    fully understood.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From GMG@3:770/3 to All on Mon Dec 18 18:30:56 2023
    Il 18/12/2023 03:09, 56g.1173 ha scritto:


    Price/performance-wise, these are all good competitors
    for the Pi5. Small, fairly powerful, the x86 ones will
    run Winders if you're dumb enough (don't expect vast
    performance however).

    Are you saying for use as a desktop pc?

    because you would have to consider the relationship between power and performance and especially the wattage consumed to get that power and performance...

    I think raspberries, even the new Pi 5, have a ratio:

    power/performance/consumption still very favorable compared to the X86s
    you linked...

    you might also consider the ratio of expressible to usable power, and in
    this case ARMs are better than X86s

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to GMG on Mon Dec 18 17:45:32 2023
    On 18/12/2023 17:30, GMG wrote:
    I think raspberries, even the new Pi 5, have a ratio: power/performance/consumption still very favourable compared to the
    X86s

    And that is what is driving the ARM revolution right now. Total cost of ownership including electricity costs.

    What is driving the Pi against other ARM platforms seems to be cost and support, rather than performance.


    --
    “It is dangerous to be right in matters on which the established
    authorities are wrong.”

    ― Voltaire, The Age of Louis XIV

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  • From 56g.1173@3:770/3 to Pancho on Tue Dec 19 01:23:54 2023
    On 12/18/23 7:44 AM, Pancho wrote:
    On 12/18/23 02:18, Brian Gregory wrote:


    No other ARM board comes close to having as much support.

    A cheaper or more powerful ARM board where the OS never gets updates
    and/or that has features that simply never work right is not an
    alternative to a Pi.


    This is true at the moment with the Orange Pi 5, but there are promises
    of new GPU drivers such as Panthor being released which might change this.

    <https://www.phoronix.com/news/Panthor-DRM-Newer-Mali>

    I have a Banana Pi ... it has some "issues". Still managed
    to get it to do one useful thing properly though. Figuring
    out what was the proper OS image to use was also difficult.

    "Orange" seems a bit better. Alas, like Banana, the older
    versions didn't even have proper wi-fi.

    In any case, I'm talking about MARKETS. The "PI" name is
    big, but if P5s really don't offer much over x86 rivals
    in terms of performance/price then people WILL go elsewhere.
    My concern is that they spent all that money/effort for
    a product that belongs in an already-crowded niche.

    Been looking at P5s ... but I really may BUY a BeeLink
    because it's the same price, similar/better performance,
    and offers more software possibilities. Comes in a
    nice box too .......

    See my point ?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From GMG@3:770/3 to All on Tue Dec 19 09:18:04 2023
    Il 18/12/2023 18:45, The Natural Philosopher ha scritto:
    On 18/12/2023 17:30, GMG wrote:
    I think raspberries, even the new Pi 5, have a ratio:
    power/performance/consumption still very favourable compared to the
    X86s

    And that is what is driving the ARM revolution right now. Total cost of ownership including electricity costs.

    What is driving the Pi against other ARM platforms seems to be cost and support, rather than performance.



    yes the support, the wide support of the Pis, is very actractive because
    of intrinsecal quality and expandability (of the support)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Chris Green@3:770/3 to GMG on Tue Dec 19 09:32:18 2023
    GMG <EJIJG@scubatin.it> wrote:
    Il 18/12/2023 18:45, The Natural Philosopher ha scritto:
    On 18/12/2023 17:30, GMG wrote:
    I think raspberries, even the new Pi 5, have a ratio:
    power/performance/consumption still very favourable compared to the
    X86s

    And that is what is driving the ARM revolution right now. Total cost of ownership including electricity costs.

    What is driving the Pi against other ARM platforms seems to be cost and support, rather than performance.



    yes the support, the wide support of the Pis, is very actractive because
    of intrinsecal quality and expandability (of the support)

    It's one of the reasons I will stay with Pis. I'm actually moving
    from a Beaglebone Black to a Pi 4 for one application just at the
    moment. I'm not interested in using my Pis as desktop machines. My
    'work' machines (as in systems with a keyboard and screen, for writing programs, for using my browser, for sending E-Mail, etc.) are x86
    based but, more important, they come as integrated boxes with space
    for multiple disk drives, card readers and so on. Making a Pi into
    such a system is 'messy' IMHO.

    --
    Chris Green
    ·

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  • From 56g.1183@3:770/3 to Chris Green on Thu Dec 21 02:33:50 2023
    On 12/19/23 4:32 AM, Chris Green wrote:
    GMG <EJIJG@scubatin.it> wrote:
    Il 18/12/2023 18:45, The Natural Philosopher ha scritto:
    On 18/12/2023 17:30, GMG wrote:
    I think raspberries, even the new Pi 5, have a ratio:
    power/performance/consumption still very favourable compared to the
    X86s

    And that is what is driving the ARM revolution right now. Total cost of
    ownership including electricity costs.

    What is driving the Pi against other ARM platforms seems to be cost and
    support, rather than performance.



    yes the support, the wide support of the Pis, is very actractive because
    of intrinsecal quality and expandability (of the support)

    It's one of the reasons I will stay with Pis. I'm actually moving
    from a Beaglebone Black to a Pi 4 for one application just at the
    moment. I'm not interested in using my Pis as desktop machines. My
    'work' machines (as in systems with a keyboard and screen, for writing programs, for using my browser, for sending E-Mail, etc.) are x86
    based but, more important, they come as integrated boxes with space
    for multiple disk drives, card readers and so on. Making a Pi into
    such a system is 'messy' IMHO.

    BBBs are very good - for what they're meant for. I will
    not say anything bad about them. I'm building a home
    security system around a BBB - with an Ard aux to deal
    with various inputs. MIGHT sub a Pi for the BBB, but
    so far I see little advantage.

    PI, so far, has been pretty stable and CAPABLE. Likely
    it will STAY that way.

    The PROBLEM is not so much 'tech' - it's BIZ.

    With the Pi5 they have invested LOTS of money/effort
    to create a board that is in a sphere with a LOT
    of competition price/capability-wise. Somewhere I
    listed a number of x86 mini-boards/systems that are
    PRICE/PERFORMANCE-competitive with the Pi5. The
    low-end "BeeLink" is maybe the greatest competitor
    at this moment. I will likely buy one - BEFORE I
    buy a Pi5.

    Yes, UK residents can get PIs cheaper - but that's
    not true for the rest of the world. Price a Pi5 on
    US Amazon and see .... NOT "cheap". Same applied
    to Pi4's ......

    My concern is that RPi-Inc may have murdered itself.

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