• Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5

    From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Paul Hardy on Sun Nov 12 21:05:02 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 12/11/2023 20:41, Paul Hardy wrote:


    Just an FYI.

    I recently ran VMS (5.5-2) as a VaxStation 3100M38 under OpenSimH on a Raspberry Pi 5!.

    I got VUPS rating of 30 or 31 from VUPs.com and VUPs2.com. Not bad on a credit card sized computer for £60!


    How does that compare with a real VAX or a PDP/11?
    My impression of a Pi Zero is that it would knock a PDP/11 into the
    middle of next week, and then some.

    --
    There is nothing a fleet of dispatchable nuclear power plants cannot do
    that cannot be done worse and more expensively and with higher carbon
    emissions and more adverse environmental impact by adding intermittent renewable energy.

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  • From Paul Hardy@3:770/3 to All on Sun Nov 12 20:41:04 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    Just an FYI.

    I recently ran VMS (5.5-2) as a VaxStation 3100M38 under OpenSimH on a Raspberry Pi 5!.

    I got VUPS rating of 30 or 31 from VUPs.com and VUPs2.com. Not bad on a
    credit card sized computer for £60!

    It ran a digital mapping application from the 1980s successfully, other
    than a long-standing font corruption problem in the GPX device simulation.

    Regards,

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  • From =?UTF-8?Q?Arne_Vajh=C3=B8j?=@3:770/3 to Paul Hardy on Sun Nov 12 15:48:22 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 11/12/2023 3:41 PM, Paul Hardy wrote:
    I recently ran VMS (5.5-2) as a VaxStation 3100M38 under OpenSimH on a Raspberry Pi 5!.

    I got VUPS rating of 30 or 31 from VUPs.com and VUPs2.com. Not bad on a credit card sized computer for £60!

    The IT world has evolved.

    What would 30 780's have costed 45 years ago?

    Arne

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  • From Bob Eager@3:770/3 to Pancho on Sun Nov 12 21:47:40 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On Sun, 12 Nov 2023 21:43:35 +0000, Pancho wrote:

    On 12/11/2023 21:05, The Natural Philosopher wrote

    My impression of a Pi Zero is that it would knock a PDP/11 into the
    middle of next week, and then some.


    Yeah, I would have expected 100s or 1000s of VUPS.

    On an emulator?

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  • From Pancho@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Sun Nov 12 21:43:34 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 12/11/2023 21:05, The Natural Philosopher wrote

    My impression of a Pi Zero is that it would knock a PDP/11 into the
    middle of next week, and then some.


    Yeah, I would have expected 100s or 1000s of VUPS.

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  • From Bob Eager@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Sun Nov 12 21:48:04 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On Sun, 12 Nov 2023 21:05:02 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 12/11/2023 20:41, Paul Hardy wrote:


    Just an FYI.

    I recently ran VMS (5.5-2) as a VaxStation 3100M38 under OpenSimH on a
    Raspberry Pi 5!.

    I got VUPS rating of 30 or 31 from VUPs.com and VUPs2.com. Not bad on a
    credit card sized computer for £60!


    How does that compare with a real VAX or a PDP/11?
    My impression of a Pi Zero is that it would knock a PDP/11 into the
    middle of next week, and then some.

    A VAX 11/780 defined 1 VUP.

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  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Sun Nov 12 22:17:32 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On Sun, 12 Nov 2023 21:05:02 +0000
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 12/11/2023 20:41, Paul Hardy wrote:


    Just an FYI.

    I recently ran VMS (5.5-2) as a VaxStation 3100M38 under OpenSimH on a Raspberry Pi 5!.

    I got VUPS rating of 30 or 31 from VUPs.com and VUPs2.com. Not bad on a credit card sized computer for £60!


    How does that compare with a real VAX or a PDP/11?

    One VUPS is supposed to be one original VAX CPU running VMS.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

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  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to Pancho on Sun Nov 12 22:19:20 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On Sun, 12 Nov 2023 21:43:35 +0000
    Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> wrote:

    On 12/11/2023 21:05, The Natural Philosopher wrote

    My impression of a Pi Zero is that it would knock a PDP/11 into the
    middle of next week, and then some.


    Yeah, I would have expected 100s or 1000s of VUPS.

    Running native sure, but it's running a software emulated processor.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

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  • From 56d.1152@3:770/3 to Paul Hardy on Sun Nov 12 22:48:30 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 11/12/23 3:41 PM, Paul Hardy wrote:


    Just an FYI.

    I recently ran VMS (5.5-2) as a VaxStation 3100M38 under OpenSimH on a Raspberry Pi 5!.

    Ok ... impressed !

    I got VUPS rating of 30 or 31 from VUPs.com and VUPs2.com. Not bad on a credit card sized computer for £60!

    It ran a digital mapping application from the 1980s successfully, other
    than a long-standing font corruption problem in the GPX device simulation.

    I always liked VMS - well ahead of its time.
    HOPING some basement-dwelling guru will create
    a Pi-runnable version with some more "modern"
    features added.

    Hey, there's a Plan-9 for Pi ... there could be
    a VMS as well !

    BUT - where did you get the OS images ? They USED
    to be available but the current owners pulled them
    off the net years ago.

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  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to 56d.1152@ztq9.net on Mon Nov 13 06:26:30 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On Sun, 12 Nov 2023 22:48:31 -0500
    "56d.1152" <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:

    I always liked VMS - well ahead of its time.
    HOPING some basement-dwelling guru will create
    a Pi-runnable version with some more "modern"
    features added.

    Hey, there's a Plan-9 for Pi ... there could be
    a VMS as well !

    Plan 9 was designed to be portable and released as source code. VMS
    was designed for the VAX and while it has been ported to the PC the source
    code has not been released. Any port to the Pi would have to be done by VMS Software who make their money selling commercial VMS licenses.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

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  • From Pancho@3:770/3 to Bob Eager on Mon Nov 13 10:26:30 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 12/11/2023 21:47, Bob Eager wrote:
    On Sun, 12 Nov 2023 21:43:35 +0000, Pancho wrote:

    On 12/11/2023 21:05, The Natural Philosopher wrote

    My impression of a Pi Zero is that it would knock a PDP/11 into the
    middle of next week, and then some.


    Yeah, I would have expected 100s or 1000s of VUPS.

    On an emulator?

    More than 30.

    I don't really know the performance penalty of emulators. AIUI a lot of
    the performance improvement of modern computers is due to software,
    working with pipelines, predictive branching, etc. Processor clock is
    only about 1000 times faster.

    I first learnt of RISC when I was given a DECstation 3100 (Mips/Ultrix
    not a VAXStation) to work on. Circa 1991. Much faster than VMS, but
    already losing the battle to the PC.

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  • From =?UTF-8?Q?Arne_Vajh=C3=B8j?=@3:770/3 to Pancho on Mon Nov 13 07:50:02 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 11/13/2023 5:26 AM, Pancho wrote:
    On 12/11/2023 21:47, Bob Eager wrote:
    On Sun, 12 Nov 2023 21:43:35 +0000, Pancho wrote:

    On 12/11/2023 21:05, The Natural Philosopher wrote

    My impression of a Pi Zero is that it would knock a PDP/11 into the
    middle of next week, and then some.


    Yeah, I would have expected 100s or 1000s of VUPS.

    On an emulator?

    More than 30.

    I don't really know the performance penalty of emulators.

    The overhead of a non-JIT instruction set emulation
    must be huge.

    Arne

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  • From Bob Eager@3:770/3 to Pancho on Mon Nov 13 15:12:04 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 10:26:30 +0000, Pancho wrote:

    On 12/11/2023 21:47, Bob Eager wrote:
    On Sun, 12 Nov 2023 21:43:35 +0000, Pancho wrote:

    On 12/11/2023 21:05, The Natural Philosopher wrote

    My impression of a Pi Zero is that it would knock a PDP/11 into the
    middle of next week, and then some.


    Yeah, I would have expected 100s or 1000s of VUPS.

    On an emulator?

    More than 30.

    That's a more realistic figure, and what has been observed (by me).

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  • From Scott Dorsey@3:770/3 to steveo@eircom.net on Mon Nov 13 16:26:18 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

    How does that compare with a real VAX or a PDP/11?

    One VUPS is supposed to be one original VAX CPU running VMS.

    Right, so this is about a Vax 6000 or so, right?

    Note that the Raspberry Pi has a whole lot more I/O bandwidth than
    comparable 32-bit DEC systems, so the performance will actually be better
    than the VUPS measurement would indicate.

    Mind you, the I/O bandwidth on the vax systems was pretty pitiful and they should never have discontinued the Decsystem-20....

    But when the computer security people ask me to describe a raspberry pi,
    I explain to them that it's about the performance of an old vax, except
    that it fits in your shirt pocket.
    --scott

    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

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  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to Scott Dorsey on Mon Nov 13 16:47:42 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 13 Nov 2023 16:26:19 -0000
    kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

    But when the computer security people ask me to describe a raspberry pi,
    I explain to them that it's about the performance of an old vax, except
    that it fits in your shirt pocket.

    More like the performance of an old Cray when it's running native
    code.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

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  • From Chris Townley@3:770/3 to Charlie Gibbs on Mon Nov 13 17:36:52 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 13/11/2023 17:32, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
    On 2023-11-13, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:

    On 11/13/2023 5:26 AM, Pancho wrote:

    I don't really know the performance penalty of emulators.

    The overhead of a non-JIT instruction set emulation
    must be huge.

    Back in my Amiga days, I played with the Transformer, a
    software emulation of an 8088 on a 68000. It would run
    MS-DOS, but very slowly - I figured about a 10x slowdown.
    Once just for giggles I ran Z80MU (a Z80 emulation for
    MS-DOS) under the Transformer. Under these two levels
    of emulation I fired up the CP/M BASIC interpreter and
    typed "PRINT SIN(whatever)". It came back with the
    correct answer - 7 seconds later.


    That sounds like the Sinclair scientific calculator in the early 70s

    --
    Chris

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  • From Charlie Gibbs@3:770/3 to arne@vajhoej.dk on Mon Nov 13 17:32:44 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 2023-11-13, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:

    On 11/13/2023 5:26 AM, Pancho wrote:

    I don't really know the performance penalty of emulators.

    The overhead of a non-JIT instruction set emulation
    must be huge.

    Back in my Amiga days, I played with the Transformer, a
    software emulation of an 8088 on a 68000. It would run
    MS-DOS, but very slowly - I figured about a 10x slowdown.
    Once just for giggles I ran Z80MU (a Z80 emulation for
    MS-DOS) under the Transformer. Under these two levels
    of emulation I fired up the CP/M BASIC interpreter and
    typed "PRINT SIN(whatever)". It came back with the
    correct answer - 7 seconds later.

    --
    /~\ Charlie Gibbs | The Internet is like a big city:
    \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | it has plenty of bright lights and
    X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | excitement, but also dark alleys
    / \ if you read it the right way. | down which the unwary get mugged.

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  • From Pancho@3:770/3 to Bob Eager on Mon Nov 13 17:44:14 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 13/11/2023 15:12, Bob Eager wrote:
    On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 10:26:30 +0000, Pancho wrote:

    On 12/11/2023 21:47, Bob Eager wrote:
    On Sun, 12 Nov 2023 21:43:35 +0000, Pancho wrote:

    On 12/11/2023 21:05, The Natural Philosopher wrote

    My impression of a Pi Zero is that it would knock a PDP/11 into the
    middle of next week, and then some.


    Yeah, I would have expected 100s or 1000s of VUPS.

    On an emulator?

    More than 30.

    That's a more realistic figure, and what has been observed (by me).

    Observed figures are always more realistic, they are, after all, real.

    Apparently, my rPi5 has arrived today, but I'm not going to test the
    emulator. I'm happy to leave the VMS part of my life, in the past.

    Looking back on it now. I think the strangest thing about VMS was the
    Manual Set.

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  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to Charlie Gibbs on Mon Nov 13 18:47:30 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 17:32:45 GMT
    Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:

    Back in my Amiga days, I played with the Transformer, a
    software emulation of an 8088 on a 68000. It would run
    MS-DOS, but very slowly - I figured about a 10x slowdown.
    Once just for giggles I ran Z80MU (a Z80 emulation for
    MS-DOS) under the Transformer. Under these two levels
    of emulation I fired up the CP/M BASIC interpreter and
    typed "PRINT SIN(whatever)". It came back with the
    correct answer - 7 seconds later.

    There's a PC emulation written in JavaScript that can boot Linux (slowly). Presumably it would be possible to run Hercules in it and produce
    a truly painfully slow mainframe emulation.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

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  • From =?UTF-8?Q?Arne_Vajh=C3=B8j?=@3:770/3 to Bob Eager on Mon Nov 13 16:06:58 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 11/13/2023 4:03 PM, Bob Eager wrote:
    On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 16:26:19 +0000, Scott Dorsey wrote:
    Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

    How does that compare with a real VAX or a PDP/11?

    One VUPS is supposed to be one original VAX CPU running VMS.

    Right, so this is about a Vax 6000 or so, right?

    No. Original VAX. An 11/780.

    A VAX 6000 (one CPU) was about 7 VUPs, as I recall.

    I think he meant that the VAX 6000 was about 30 VUPS.

    It depends on what 6000. A 6n0 is 32 VUPS but a 4n0 is 7 VUPS.

    Arne

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  • From Bob Eager@3:770/3 to Scott Dorsey on Mon Nov 13 21:03:50 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 16:26:19 +0000, Scott Dorsey wrote:

    Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

    How does that compare with a real VAX or a PDP/11?

    One VUPS is supposed to be one original VAX CPU running VMS.

    Right, so this is about a Vax 6000 or so, right?

    No. Original VAX. An 11/780.

    A VAX 6000 (one CPU) was about 7 VUPs, as I recall.

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  • From Bob Eager@3:770/3 to All on Mon Nov 13 21:42:34 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 16:06:59 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

    On 11/13/2023 4:03 PM, Bob Eager wrote:
    On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 16:26:19 +0000, Scott Dorsey wrote:
    Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

    How does that compare with a real VAX or a PDP/11?

    One VUPS is supposed to be one original VAX CPU running VMS.

    Right, so this is about a Vax 6000 or so, right?

    No. Original VAX. An 11/780.

    A VAX 6000 (one CPU) was about 7 VUPs, as I recall.

    I think he meant that the VAX 6000 was about 30 VUPS.

    It depends on what 6000. A 6n0 is 32 VUPS but a 4n0 is 7 VUPS.

    Is that a single CPU, as I stated?

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  • From Martin Gregorie@3:770/3 to Chris Townley on Mon Nov 13 22:00:12 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 17:36:53 +0000, Chris Townley wrote:

    On 13/11/2023 17:32, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
    On 2023-11-13, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:

    On 11/13/2023 5:26 AM, Pancho wrote:

    I don't really know the performance penalty of emulators.

    The overhead of a non-JIT instruction set emulation must be huge.

    Back in my Amiga days, I played with the Transformer, a software
    emulation of an 8088 on a 68000. It would run MS-DOS, but very slowly
    - I figured about a 10x slowdown.
    Once just for giggles I ran Z80MU (a Z80 emulation for MS-DOS) under
    the Transformer. Under these two levels of emulation I fired up the
    CP/M BASIC interpreter and typed "PRINT SIN(whatever)". It came back
    with the correct answer - 7 seconds later.


    That sounds like the Sinclair scientific calculator in the early 70s

    I had one of the really small 4 function calculators in 1975. IIRC it
    wasn't all that slow (similar speed to a slide rule if each calculation required both slide and cursor to be moved for each calculation) but its
    main drawbacks was being really too small and fiddly, I used to be pretty
    good with the mechanical, electrically driven FACIT desktop calculators
    and I'd say the Sinclairs were just a little faster than those Facits.

    However, I got an HP 21 (RPN0 calculator in 1977 and that was much faster
    AND much stronger and better made: still have it and it still works, but
    got an HP 21 (programmable too). That got replaced by an HP 28s in 1990
    and is still in daily use.


    --

    Martin | martin at
    Gregorie | gregorie dot org

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  • From TimS@3:770/3 to Pancho on Mon Nov 13 22:11:04 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 13 Nov 2023 at 17:44:15 GMT, "Pancho" <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> wrote:

    Looking back on it now. I think the strangest thing about VMS was the
    Manual Set.

    Chap I shared an office with at SLAC back in the 80s was one of these
    hoarders. We not only had the current set of VMS doc in the office, but the complete previous set too, while he had the set before that in his garage at home.

    He was the sort of chap who, if you asked him for the 3-page doc that you'd loaned him a month previously, could unerringly poke into the 3-foot high pile (er, one of the piles, sorry), on his desk and pull it out straight away, with zero search time. This made complaining about the paper piles futile. "Works for me!"

    --
    Tim

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  • From Martin Gregorie@3:770/3 to Pancho on Mon Nov 13 23:40:14 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 17:44:15 +0000, Pancho wrote:

    Looking back on it now. I think the strangest thing about VMS was the
    Manual Set.

    I was part of one, fairly large, project on VAX/VMS. I thought the oddest
    part of it was the way the usual collection of programmer's utilities were implemented as a handful of multi-function development tools, i.e. one
    program that handled all source file management tasks, another to take
    care of all comms tasks, etc. I've never met any other OS that was
    structured that way.

    Several years later I did another project on DEC Alpha Servers running
    Tru64 UNIX, which I preferred to VMS, being a UNIX fanatic. Tru64 UNIXwas pretty much a straight-forward port of UNIX System V functions and
    programing tools onto a MACH-based kernel. This was amazingly fast for the
    era and fairly bullet-proof.


    --

    Martin | martin at
    Gregorie | gregorie dot org

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  • From Scott Dorsey@3:770/3 to news0009@eager.cx on Mon Nov 13 23:57:06 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    In article <krfh9mFu9jrU2@mid.individual.net>,
    Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> wrote:
    On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 16:26:19 +0000, Scott Dorsey wrote:

    Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

    How does that compare with a real VAX or a PDP/11?

    One VUPS is supposed to be one original VAX CPU running VMS.

    Right, so this is about a Vax 6000 or so, right?

    No. Original VAX. An 11/780.

    That's one VUPS. But the Pi emulator is about thirty.

    A VAX 6000 (one CPU) was about 7 VUPs, as I recall.

    Hmm, I remember it as being faster. Which machine was about 30 VUPS?
    --scott


    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

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  • From Chris Townley@3:770/3 to Martin Gregorie on Mon Nov 13 23:42:16 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 13/11/2023 22:00, Martin Gregorie wrote:
    On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 17:36:53 +0000, Chris Townley wrote:

    On 13/11/2023 17:32, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
    On 2023-11-13, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:

    On 11/13/2023 5:26 AM, Pancho wrote:

    I don't really know the performance penalty of emulators.

    The overhead of a non-JIT instruction set emulation must be huge.

    Back in my Amiga days, I played with the Transformer, a software
    emulation of an 8088 on a 68000. It would run MS-DOS, but very slowly
    - I figured about a 10x slowdown.
    Once just for giggles I ran Z80MU (a Z80 emulation for MS-DOS) under
    the Transformer. Under these two levels of emulation I fired up the
    CP/M BASIC interpreter and typed "PRINT SIN(whatever)". It came back
    with the correct answer - 7 seconds later.


    That sounds like the Sinclair scientific calculator in the early 70s

    I had one of the really small 4 function calculators in 1975. IIRC it
    wasn't all that slow (similar speed to a slide rule if each calculation required both slide and cursor to be moved for each calculation) but its
    main drawbacks was being really too small and fiddly, I used to be pretty good with the mechanical, electrically driven FACIT desktop calculators
    and I'd say the Sinclairs were just a little faster than those Facits.

    However, I got an HP 21 (RPN0 calculator in 1977 and that was much faster
    AND much stronger and better made: still have it and it still works, but
    got an HP 21 (programmable too). That got replaced by an HP 28s in 1990
    and is still in daily use.

    No this was the earlier scientific calculator, and a few years earlier.
    When you pressed a function, the screen would go blank for about 7
    seconds. |But at the time, and the price it was phenomenal!

    --
    Chris

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  • From Martin Gregorie@3:770/3 to Martin Gregorie on Mon Nov 13 23:58:56 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 22:00:13 -0000 (UTC), Martin Gregorie wrote:

    On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 17:36:53 +0000, Chris Townley wrote:

    On 13/11/2023 17:32, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
    On 2023-11-13, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:

    On 11/13/2023 5:26 AM, Pancho wrote:

    I don't really know the performance penalty of emulators.

    The overhead of a non-JIT instruction set emulation must be huge.

    Back in my Amiga days, I played with the Transformer, a software
    emulation of an 8088 on a 68000. It would run MS-DOS, but very slowly
    - I figured about a 10x slowdown.
    Once just for giggles I ran Z80MU (a Z80 emulation for MS-DOS) under
    the Transformer. Under these two levels of emulation I fired up the
    CP/M BASIC interpreter and typed "PRINT SIN(whatever)". It came back
    with the correct answer - 7 seconds later.


    That sounds like the Sinclair scientific calculator in the early 70s

    I had one of the really small 4 function calculators in 1975. IIRC it
    wasn't all that slow (similar speed to a slide rule if each calculation required both slide and cursor to be moved for each calculation) but its
    main drawbacks was being really too small and fiddly, I used to be
    pretty good with the mechanical, electrically driven FACIT desktop calculators and I'd say the Sinclairs were just a little faster than
    those Facits.

    However, I got an HP 21 (RPN0 calculator in 1977 and that was much
    faster AND much stronger and better made: still have it and it still
    works, but got an HP 21 (programmable too). That got replaced by an HP
    28s in 1990 and is still in daily use.

    Correction: the HP 21 is nor programmable but the HP 28S is.




    --

    Martin | martin at
    Gregorie | gregorie dot org

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  • From =?UTF-8?Q?Arne_Vajh=C3=B8j?=@3:770/3 to Dave Froble on Mon Nov 13 19:29:14 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 11/13/2023 7:25 PM, Dave Froble wrote:
    On 11/13/2023 4:03 PM, Bob Eager wrote:
    On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 16:26:19 +0000, Scott Dorsey wrote:
    Ahem A Rivet's Shot  <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

    How does that compare with a real VAX or a PDP/11?

        One VUPS is supposed to be one original VAX CPU running VMS.

    Right, so this is about a Vax 6000 or so, right?

    No. Original VAX. An 11/780.

    A VAX 6000 (one CPU) was about 7 VUPs, as I recall.

    The 6000 used the NVAX, correct?  On a VAXstation 4000 Model 90A I get
    26-27 VUPS.  I'd think the 6000 would be similar.

    Depends on what 6000.

    200 models - 2.8
    300 models - 3.9
    400 models - 7
    500 models - 13
    600 models - 32

    (1-6 CPU's)

    Arne

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  • From =?UTF-8?Q?Arne_Vajh=C3=B8j?=@3:770/3 to Bob Eager on Mon Nov 13 19:21:30 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 11/13/2023 4:42 PM, Bob Eager wrote:
    On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 16:06:59 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

    On 11/13/2023 4:03 PM, Bob Eager wrote:
    On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 16:26:19 +0000, Scott Dorsey wrote:
    Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

    How does that compare with a real VAX or a PDP/11?

    One VUPS is supposed to be one original VAX CPU running VMS.

    Right, so this is about a Vax 6000 or so, right?

    No. Original VAX. An 11/780.

    A VAX 6000 (one CPU) was about 7 VUPs, as I recall.

    I think he meant that the VAX 6000 was about 30 VUPS.

    It depends on what 6000. A 6n0 is 32 VUPS but a 4n0 is 7 VUPS.

    Is that a single CPU, as I stated?

    Yes.

    But VUPS benchmarks are usually/always single-threaded
    so it would not run much faster with 6 CPU's. 6 CPU's
    is 6 x 7 or 6 x 32 VUPS not 42 or 192 VUPS.

    Arne

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  • From Dave Froble@3:770/3 to Bob Eager on Mon Nov 13 19:25:58 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 11/13/2023 4:03 PM, Bob Eager wrote:
    On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 16:26:19 +0000, Scott Dorsey wrote:

    Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

    How does that compare with a real VAX or a PDP/11?

    One VUPS is supposed to be one original VAX CPU running VMS.

    Right, so this is about a Vax 6000 or so, right?

    No. Original VAX. An 11/780.

    A VAX 6000 (one CPU) was about 7 VUPs, as I recall.


    The 6000 used the NVAX, correct? On a VAXstation 4000 Model 90A I get 26-27 VUPS. I'd think the 6000 would be similar.

    --
    David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
    Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
    DFE Ultralights, Inc.
    170 Grimplin Road
    Vanderbilt, PA 15486

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  • From Martin Gregorie@3:770/3 to Chris Townley on Tue Nov 14 00:32:40 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 23:42:16 +0000, Chris Townley wrote:

    On 13/11/2023 22:00, Martin Gregorie wrote:
    On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 17:36:53 +0000, Chris Townley wrote:

    On 13/11/2023 17:32, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
    On 2023-11-13, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:

    On 11/13/2023 5:26 AM, Pancho wrote:

    I don't really know the performance penalty of emulators.

    The overhead of a non-JIT instruction set emulation must be huge.

    Back in my Amiga days, I played with the Transformer, a software
    emulation of an 8088 on a 68000. It would run MS-DOS, but very
    slowly - I figured about a 10x slowdown.
    Once just for giggles I ran Z80MU (a Z80 emulation for MS-DOS) under
    the Transformer. Under these two levels of emulation I fired up the
    CP/M BASIC interpreter and typed "PRINT SIN(whatever)". It came back
    with the correct answer - 7 seconds later.


    That sounds like the Sinclair scientific calculator in the early 70s

    I had one of the really small 4 function calculators in 1975. IIRC it
    wasn't all that slow (similar speed to a slide rule if each calculation
    required both slide and cursor to be moved for each calculation) but
    its main drawbacks was being really too small and fiddly, I used to be
    pretty good with the mechanical, electrically driven FACIT desktop
    calculators and I'd say the Sinclairs were just a little faster than
    those Facits.

    However, I got an HP 21 (RPN0 calculator in 1977 and that was much
    faster AND much stronger and better made: still have it and it still
    works, but got an HP 21 (programmable too). That got replaced by an HP
    28s in 1990 and is still in daily use.

    No this was the earlier scientific calculator, and a few years earlier.
    When you pressed a function, the screen would go blank for about 7
    seconds. |But at the time, and the price it was phenomenal!

    The HP21 came out in 1975 was functionally identical to the earlier HP35,
    but was a bit smaller and using a different case design and runs off two
    AA NiCd cells.

    The HP28S came out in 1988 and is quite flat (160 x 90 x 19 mm) and runs
    for around a year on a set of three N-batteries.

    --

    Martin | martin at
    Gregorie | gregorie dot org

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  • From 56d.1152@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Mon Nov 13 23:02:10 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 11/13/23 1:26 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Sun, 12 Nov 2023 22:48:31 -0500
    "56d.1152" <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:

    I always liked VMS - well ahead of its time.
    HOPING some basement-dwelling guru will create
    a Pi-runnable version with some more "modern"
    features added.

    Hey, there's a Plan-9 for Pi ... there could be
    a VMS as well !

    Plan 9 was designed to be portable and released as source code. VMS
    was designed for the VAX and while it has been ported to the PC the source code has not been released. Any port to the Pi would have to be done by VMS Software who make their money selling commercial VMS licenses.

    Alas yes ........

    Hmmmm - but WHO is buying such licenses, and for WHAT ???
    VMS is allegedly WELL obsolete, yet they're making money
    from ports.

    Admittedly it will be difficult to separate VMS from the
    hardware/peripherials it was written for. However if it
    can be ported, more or less, to i86 then it should be less
    of a prob to port THAT to ARM.

    Plan-9 was writ to be "more portable". It is kinda hard to
    deal with regardless of underlying hardware however. It was
    intended for "distributed systems", not use on a single
    box/processor, so you get that added complexity thrown in
    for free.

    There are some "ancient systems" that still see use. DOS
    is one of them - compact/efficient and still fair for
    embedded projects. CP/M derivs are also seen. OS9 is another -
    and yes it's still developed and for-sale. Most of the
    "big iron" systems from the 60s/70s went away however.
    "Simplicity" seems to play a role in "longevity". VMS ...
    well, it was REALLY GOOD ... so, somewhere, it's hanging
    on - enough so people will PAY for it.

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  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to 56d.1152@ztq9.net on Tue Nov 14 07:09:06 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 23:02:11 -0500
    "56d.1152" <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:

    There are some "ancient systems" that still see use. DOS
    is one of them - compact/efficient and still fair for
    embedded projects. CP/M derivs are also seen. OS9 is another -
    and yes it's still developed and for-sale. Most of the
    "big iron" systems from the 60s/70s went away however.

    Z/OS is still around and capable of running OS-360 binary
    applications as well as more modern unix based systems.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

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  • From Johnny Billquist@3:770/3 to Martin Gregorie on Tue Nov 14 10:30:18 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 2023-11-14 00:40, Martin Gregorie wrote:
    On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 17:44:15 +0000, Pancho wrote:

    Looking back on it now. I think the strangest thing about VMS was the
    Manual Set.

    I was part of one, fairly large, project on VAX/VMS. I thought the oddest part of it was the way the usual collection of programmer's utilities were implemented as a handful of multi-function development tools, i.e. one program that handled all source file management tasks, another to take
    care of all comms tasks, etc. I've never met any other OS that was
    structured that way.

    What other OSes do you have experience with?

    Source management is usually handled by one single program, even on most systems today. Be that cvs, svn, git or whatever.

    And have you ever looked at find under Unix? That's a swiss army knife
    if you ever saw one...

    Johnny

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  • From Johnny Billquist@3:770/3 to All on Tue Nov 14 10:24:00 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 2023-11-13 13:50, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
    On 11/13/2023 5:26 AM, Pancho wrote:
    On 12/11/2023 21:47, Bob Eager wrote:
    On Sun, 12 Nov 2023 21:43:35 +0000, Pancho wrote:

    On 12/11/2023 21:05, The Natural Philosopher wrote

    My impression of a Pi Zero is that it would knock a PDP/11 into the
    middle of next week, and then some.


    Yeah, I would have expected 100s or 1000s of VUPS.

    On an emulator?

    More than 30.

    I don't really know the performance penalty of emulators.

    The overhead of a non-JIT instruction set emulation
    must be huge.

    Depending on the instructions and data, the overhead is somewhere
    between 10:1 to 100:1. In some extreme cases it can be way worse.

    Johnny

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Chris Townley on Tue Nov 14 09:34:58 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 13/11/2023 17:36, Chris Townley wrote:
    On 13/11/2023 17:32, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
    On 2023-11-13, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:

    On 11/13/2023 5:26 AM, Pancho wrote:

    I don't really know the performance penalty of emulators.

    The overhead of a non-JIT instruction set emulation
    must be huge.

    Back in my Amiga days, I played with the Transformer, a
    software emulation of an 8088 on a 68000.  It would run
    MS-DOS, but very slowly - I figured about a 10x slowdown.
    Once just for giggles I ran Z80MU (a Z80 emulation for
    MS-DOS) under the Transformer.  Under these two levels
    of emulation I fired up the CP/M BASIC interpreter and
    typed "PRINT SIN(whatever)".  It came back with the
    correct answer - 7 seconds later.


    That sounds like the Sinclair scientific calculator in the early 70s

    No, that came back with the *wrong* answer...if it worked at all.


    --
    “But what a weak barrier is truth when it stands in the way of an hypothesis!”

    Mary Wollstonecraft

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  • From Martin Gregorie@3:770/3 to Johnny Billquist on Tue Nov 14 12:39:48 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On Tue, 14 Nov 2023 10:30:18 +0100, Johnny Billquist wrote:

    On 2023-11-14 00:40, Martin Gregorie wrote:
    On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 17:44:15 +0000, Pancho wrote:

    Looking back on it now. I think the strangest thing about VMS was the
    Manual Set.

    I was part of one, fairly large, project on VAX/VMS. I thought the
    oddest part of it was the way the usual collection of programmer's
    utilities were implemented as a handful of multi-function development
    tools, i.e. one program that handled all source file management tasks,
    another to take care of all comms tasks, etc. I've never met any other
    OS that was structured that way.

    What other OSes do you have experience with?

    ICL: UDAS, OLDAS, George 1`,2 and 3, VME/B
    Stratus: VOS
    IBM: OS/400
    DEC: VAX/VMS, TruUNIX (Alpha server)
    PC: DOS, Windows, Unix, RedHat Linux
    6809, FLEX, OS/9
    68000: OS/9 68000
    Stratus: VOS
    Tandem: Nonstop OS
    RPI: Debian Linux
    .
    Source management is usually handled by one single program, even on most
    systems today. Be that cvs, svn, git or whatever.

    Indeed, I used CVS for years, now using Git

    And have you ever looked at find under Unix? That's a swiss army knife
    if you ever saw one...

    Use it a lot, also apropos,


    --

    Martin | martin at
    Gregorie | gregorie dot org

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  • From =?UTF-8?Q?Arne_Vajh=C3=B8j?=@3:770/3 to Martin Gregorie on Tue Nov 14 08:45:10 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 11/14/2023 7:39 AM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
    On Tue, 14 Nov 2023 10:30:18 +0100, Johnny Billquist wrote:
    Source management is usually handled by one single program, even on most
    systems today. Be that cvs, svn, git or whatever.

    Indeed, I used CVS for years, now using Git

    Last one among the common with separate executables was probably RCS.

    But I really don't see the big difference between:

    vcsname vcscommand ... running vcsname.exe

    and

    vcscommand ... running vcscommand.exe

    Arne

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  • From bill@3:770/3 to Johnny Billquist on Tue Nov 14 09:43:34 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 11/14/2023 4:30 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
    On 2023-11-14 00:40, Martin Gregorie wrote:
    On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 17:44:15 +0000, Pancho wrote:

    Looking back on it now. I think the strangest thing about VMS was the
    Manual Set.

    I was part of one, fairly large, project on VAX/VMS. I thought the oddest
    part of it was the way the usual collection of programmer's utilities
    were
    implemented as a handful of multi-function development tools, i.e. one
    program that handled all source file management tasks, another to take
    care of all comms tasks, etc. I've never met any other OS that was
    structured that way.

    What other OSes do you have experience with?

    Source management is usually handled by one single program, even on most systems today. Be that cvs, svn, git or whatever.

    And have you ever looked at find under Unix? That's a swiss army knife
    if you ever saw one...


    Do you mean Unix find or Gnu find? Gnu people lost track of the Unix
    Paradigm long ago.

    bill

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  • From Dave Froble@3:770/3 to All on Tue Nov 14 10:04:06 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 11/13/2023 7:29 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
    On 11/13/2023 7:25 PM, Dave Froble wrote:
    On 11/13/2023 4:03 PM, Bob Eager wrote:
    On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 16:26:19 +0000, Scott Dorsey wrote:
    Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

    How does that compare with a real VAX or a PDP/11?

    One VUPS is supposed to be one original VAX CPU running VMS.

    Right, so this is about a Vax 6000 or so, right?

    No. Original VAX. An 11/780.

    A VAX 6000 (one CPU) was about 7 VUPs, as I recall.

    The 6000 used the NVAX, correct? On a VAXstation 4000 Model 90A I get 26-27 >> VUPS. I'd think the 6000 would be similar.

    Depends on what 6000.

    200 models - 2.8
    300 models - 3.9
    400 models - 7
    500 models - 13
    600 models - 32

    (1-6 CPU's)

    Arne



    Well, when looking back, I'd think that one might remember the latest version of
    any line of computers. For example, the VAXstation 4000 line had multiple versions of the NVAX CPU, and the 90A I referenced was a later, but not the latest, version. The model 96 was the last and best.

    Not that I have any use for one, but I've always desired to acquire a MicroVAX 3100 model 98. Same CPU as the VAXstation 4000 model 96.

    --
    David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
    Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
    DFE Ultralights, Inc.
    170 Grimplin Road
    Vanderbilt, PA 15486

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  • From Bob Eager@3:770/3 to All on Tue Nov 14 15:07:56 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 19:29:14 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

    On 11/13/2023 7:25 PM, Dave Froble wrote:
    On 11/13/2023 4:03 PM, Bob Eager wrote:
    On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 16:26:19 +0000, Scott Dorsey wrote:
    Ahem A Rivet's Shot  <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

    How does that compare with a real VAX or a PDP/11?

        One VUPS is supposed to be one original VAX CPU running VMS.

    Right, so this is about a Vax 6000 or so, right?

    No. Original VAX. An 11/780.

    A VAX 6000 (one CPU) was about 7 VUPs, as I recall.

    The 6000 used the NVAX, correct?  On a VAXstation 4000 Model 90A I get
    26-27 VUPS.  I'd think the 6000 would be similar.

    Depends on what 6000.

    200 models - 2.8 300 models - 3.9 400 models - 7 500 models - 13 600
    models - 32

    (1-6 CPU's)

    That''s why I qualified my statement with "(one CPU)"

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  • From Single Stage to Orbit@3:770/3 to bill on Tue Nov 14 15:41:08 2023
    On Tue, 2023-11-14 at 09:43 -0500, bill wrote:
    Source management is usually handled by one single program, even on
    most systems today. Be that cvs, svn, git or whatever.

    And have you ever looked at find under Unix? That's a swiss army
    knife if you ever saw one...


    Do you mean Unix find or Gnu find?  Gnu people lost track of the Unix Paradigm  long ago.

    I'd have loved to have grep on VMS. I had to keep lookign through all
    my directories to find what I needed. Does VMS have anything like this?

    Many thanks,
    Alex
    --
    Tactical Nuclear Kittens

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  • From =?UTF-8?Q?Arne_Vajh=C3=B8j?=@3:770/3 to Bob Eager on Tue Nov 14 10:46:10 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 11/14/2023 10:07 AM, Bob Eager wrote:
    On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 19:29:14 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
    On 11/13/2023 7:25 PM, Dave Froble wrote:
    On 11/13/2023 4:03 PM, Bob Eager wrote:
    On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 16:26:19 +0000, Scott Dorsey wrote:
    Ahem A Rivet's Shot  <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

    How does that compare with a real VAX or a PDP/11?

        One VUPS is supposed to be one original VAX CPU running VMS. >>>>>
    Right, so this is about a Vax 6000 or so, right?

    No. Original VAX. An 11/780.

    A VAX 6000 (one CPU) was about 7 VUPs, as I recall.

    The 6000 used the NVAX, correct?  On a VAXstation 4000 Model 90A I get
    26-27 VUPS.  I'd think the 6000 would be similar.

    Depends on what 6000.

    200 models - 2.8 300 models - 3.9 400 models - 7 500 models - 13 600
    models - 32

    (1-6 CPU's)

    That''s why I qualified my statement with "(one CPU)"

    Just to be sure that everybody agrees about numbers.

    200/300/400/500/600 are generational models independent of number
    of CPU's.

    A 210 is a 200 model with 1 CPU. 1 x 2.8 VUPS.

    A 420 is 400 model with 2 CPU's. 2 x 7 VUPS.

    A 660 is a 600 model with 6 CPU's. 6 x 32 VUPS.

    Arne

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  • From Johnny Billquist@3:770/3 to Martin Gregorie on Tue Nov 14 18:05:20 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 2023-11-14 13:39, Martin Gregorie wrote:
    On Tue, 14 Nov 2023 10:30:18 +0100, Johnny Billquist wrote:

    On 2023-11-14 00:40, Martin Gregorie wrote:
    On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 17:44:15 +0000, Pancho wrote:

    Looking back on it now. I think the strangest thing about VMS was the
    Manual Set.

    I was part of one, fairly large, project on VAX/VMS. I thought the
    oddest part of it was the way the usual collection of programmer's
    utilities were implemented as a handful of multi-function development
    tools, i.e. one program that handled all source file management tasks,
    another to take care of all comms tasks, etc. I've never met any other
    OS that was structured that way.

    What other OSes do you have experience with?

    ICL: UDAS, OLDAS, George 1`,2 and 3, VME/B
    Stratus: VOS
    IBM: OS/400
    DEC: VAX/VMS, TruUNIX (Alpha server)
    PC: DOS, Windows, Unix, RedHat Linux
    6809, FLEX, OS/9
    68000: OS/9 68000
    Stratus: VOS
    Tandem: Nonstop OS
    RPI: Debian Linux

    So in which way do you think VMS is so different than all of the above?
    I only know a few of the ones you list, but I do know a bunch of others.
    And to me, there is nothing I would say is strange, unique or even
    special about how VMS does things.

    It is a bit different than under Unix-like systems, since commands don't necessarily have a 1:1 mapping to a binary. But apart from that, I fail
    to see much of a difference.

    And with alias for things, along with symlinks, Unix isn't really any
    different there either.

    Source management is usually handled by one single program, even on most
    systems today. Be that cvs, svn, git or whatever.

    Indeed, I used CVS for years, now using Git

    And have you ever looked at find under Unix? That's a swiss army knife
    if you ever saw one...

    Use it a lot, also apropos,

    Well, apropos is just a simple tool for one thing. Which is just a way
    to search man-pages. find on the other hand can be used for almost
    anything, and the number of switches/options available is more than any
    person can memorize. Admittedly, all the operations are related to
    files, but then again, almost anything is a file under Unix. ;-)

    Johnny

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  • From Johnny Billquist@3:770/3 to bill on Tue Nov 14 18:09:04 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 2023-11-14 15:43, bill wrote:
    On 11/14/2023 4:30 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
    On 2023-11-14 00:40, Martin Gregorie wrote:
    On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 17:44:15 +0000, Pancho wrote:

    Looking back on it now. I think the strangest thing about VMS was the
    Manual Set.

    I was part of one, fairly large, project on VAX/VMS. I thought the
    oddest
    part of it was the way the usual collection of programmer's utilities
    were
    implemented as a handful of multi-function development tools, i.e. one
    program that handled all source file management tasks, another to take
    care of all comms tasks, etc. I've never met any other OS that was
    structured that way.

    What other OSes do you have experience with?

    Source management is usually handled by one single program, even on
    most systems today. Be that cvs, svn, git or whatever.

    And have you ever looked at find under Unix? That's a swiss army knife
    if you ever saw one...


    Do you mean Unix find or Gnu find?  Gnu people lost track of the Unix Paradigm  long ago.

    With find it don't matter. Even the original is crazy. The one tool
    where the Unix paradigm got completely lost...

    GNU have indeed gone crazy with options to programs as well, I admit.
    Not to mention the added craziness of Red Hat...

    Johnny

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  • From Johnny Billquist@3:770/3 to All on Tue Nov 14 18:11:48 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 2023-11-14 16:46, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
    On 11/14/2023 10:07 AM, Bob Eager wrote:
    On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 19:29:14 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
    On 11/13/2023 7:25 PM, Dave Froble wrote:
    On 11/13/2023 4:03 PM, Bob Eager wrote:
    On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 16:26:19 +0000, Scott Dorsey wrote:
    Ahem A Rivet's Shot  <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

    How does that compare with a real VAX or a PDP/11?

         One VUPS is supposed to be one original VAX CPU running VMS. >>>>>>
    Right, so this is about a Vax 6000 or so, right?

    No. Original VAX. An 11/780.

    A VAX 6000 (one CPU) was about 7 VUPs, as I recall.

    The 6000 used the NVAX, correct?  On a VAXstation 4000 Model 90A I get >>>> 26-27 VUPS.  I'd think the 6000 would be similar.

    Depends on what 6000.

    200 models - 2.8 300 models - 3.9 400 models - 7 500 models - 13 600
    models - 32

    (1-6 CPU's)

    That''s why I qualified my statement with "(one CPU)"

    Just to be sure that everybody agrees about numbers.

    200/300/400/500/600 are generational models independent of number
    of CPU's.

    A 210 is a 200 model with 1 CPU. 1 x 2.8 VUPS.

    A 420 is 400 model with 2 CPU's. 2 x 7 VUPS.

    A 660 is a 600 model with 6 CPU's. 6 x 32 VUPS.

    Good to point out. I'm getting the feeling people did not understand.

    Johnny

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  • From Martin Gregorie@3:770/3 to Johnny Billquist on Tue Nov 14 18:21:48 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On Tue, 14 Nov 2023 18:05:21 +0100, Johnny Billquist wrote:

    So in which way do you think VMS is so different than all of the above?

    Its been a long time, but as I already said,

    VMS seemed to have a few portmanteau commands where the other OSen had a
    host of single function commands. For instance, to access the equivalents
    of the Unix commands rm, cp, less and ls under VAX/VMS you first logged in (same as unix) but then you had to start a package (sorry, but I don't
    remember its name) to access its own command line and then run the UNIX-
    like comands.

    That's stuck with me because no UNIX or Linux system works that way.and
    logging to every other OS I've used has given immediate access to a
    command line. The main deviation from this plot are IBM's OS/400 and ICL's
    2900 series running under VME/B,

    Both these have much more rational command naming systems than either Unix/Linux or an excellent command look-up system: command names are so
    regular and that's backed a special key that shows your full screen prompt
    with help text and default parameter values already filled in and
    mandatory ones left blank. Any Invalid parameters you enter are merely
    flagged up ready for correction.

    VME/B commands had two names, one abbreviated and a bit cryptic for direct input to the command line and the other much longer and intended for use
    in command scripts. For instance, 'x' always meant 'delete' and 'f' always meant 'file', so the command to delete a file could be entered as either
    "xf myfile" or as deletefile("myfile");

    OS/400 is quire similar here, except that command and file names could
    never be more than 9 characters long and so often appeared to like line
    noise. For instance and there were no just three letter groups so:

    crtrpgpgm is the RPG3 compiler (Create RPG program)
    crtplipgm is the PL/1 compiler
    crtcblpgm is the COBOL compiler

    To OS/400 'rpg' means RPG and 'pgm' always means 'program,
    ie once you understand the naming system, you can often
    guess what a command would be called.

    Also, both systems also had a 'search by name' ability that could be run
    from the command line or from the text editor if you were editing a
    command file.

    The major failing of both OS is that neither had a hierarchic filing
    system, such as both UNIX/Linux and Windows (and even DOS) provide.

    I always thought this was odd, since George 3 had a hierarchical filing
    system way back in 1970, when I first got my hands on it, but then again
    VME/B and OS/400 (which AFAIK was a resurrected version of IBM's Future
    Series which was killed off in about 1971) were first conceived somewhere
    in the early 1970s, i.e. after MULTICS was up and running, and which DID
    have a hierarchic filing system.

    And with alias for things, along with symlinks, Unix isn't really any different there either.

    True enough, provided you exclude dinosaurs like S/360, AS/400, 2903s
    (been there too, but its just an ICL 1900 emulator running on box
    containing an ICL 2900 disk controller). Hierarchic filing systems as we
    know then now, seem to have originated with MULTICS, and maybe the ICL
    1900 George 3 OS (Manually operated 1900s and 2903/4 all had flat filing systems like MSDOS, FLEX, etc).

    My guess is that development of the 1900 and S/360 and all the other early mainframes started just a bit too early for their designers to have seen MULTICS and decided that hierarchic filing systems were the way to go.

    Well, apropos is just a simple tool for one thing. Which is just a way
    to search man-pages.

    Sure, but I wouldn't be surprised to fins that 'apropos' is just a wrapper round 'find'.

    find on the other hand can be used for almost anything

    These days I mostly use 'locate' because its faster thanks to its
    associated overnight index update, for anything a bit more complex, i.e.
    with a bit of formatting included, 'awk / gawk' is my tool of choice.


    --

    Martin | martin at
    Gregorie | gregorie dot org

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  • From =?UTF-8?Q?Arne_Vajh=C3=B8j?=@3:770/3 to Martin Gregorie on Tue Nov 14 13:41:26 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 11/14/2023 1:21 PM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
    Its been a long time, but as I already said,

    VMS seemed to have a few portmanteau commands where the other OSen had a
    host of single function commands. For instance, to access the equivalents
    of the Unix commands rm, cp, less and ls under VAX/VMS you first logged in (same as unix) but then you had to start a package (sorry, but I don't remember its name) to access its own command line and then run the UNIX- like comands.

    That's stuck with me because no UNIX or Linux system works that way.and logging to every other OS I've used has given immediate access to a
    command line.

    Now I am confused.

    If you login to VMS you have immediate access to DCL commands.

    If you want to use *nix commands you need to start something
    (very old Eunice, old posix or new GNV bash or something similar).

    If you login to Linux you have immediate access to *nix
    commands.

    If you want to use DCL commands you need to start some
    third party DCL implementation (Sector 7 ??).

    What is the difference?

    Arne

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  • From bill@3:770/3 to Martin Gregorie on Tue Nov 14 13:56:56 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 11/14/2023 1:21 PM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
    On Tue, 14 Nov 2023 18:05:21 +0100, Johnny Billquist wrote:

    So in which way do you think VMS is so different than all of the above?

    Its been a long time, but as I already said,

    VMS seemed to have a few portmanteau commands where the other OSen had a
    host of single function commands. For instance, to access the equivalents
    of the Unix commands rm, cp, less and ls under VAX/VMS you first logged in (same as unix) but then you had to start a package (sorry, but I don't remember its name) to access its own command line and then run the UNIX- like comands.

    Oh my god.... I think he is equating Eunice with VMS.....

    :-)

    bill

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  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to Johnny Billquist on Tue Nov 14 18:37:52 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On Tue, 14 Nov 2023 18:09:05 +0100
    Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> wrote:

    With find it don't matter. Even the original is crazy. The one tool
    where the Unix paradigm got completely lost...

    Not so sure about that - the one thing it does well is walk a
    directory tree looking for matching entries. Arguable -exec wasn't needed
    but perhaps it predated xargs.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

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  • From Jim Jackson@3:770/3 to Johnny Billquist on Tue Nov 14 19:50:20 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 2023-11-14, Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> wrote:

    With find it don't matter. Even the original is crazy. The one tool
    where the Unix paradigm got completely lost...

    I'm baffled by this.

    find finds stuff in the filesystem that match some conditions.

    What else does it do?

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  • From Martin Gregorie@3:770/3 to All on Tue Nov 14 20:10:10 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On Tue, 14 Nov 2023 13:41:27 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

    On 11/14/2023 1:21 PM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
    Its been a long time, but as I already said,

    VMS seemed to have a few portmanteau commands where the other OSen had
    a host of single function commands. For instance, to access the
    equivalents of the Unix commands rm, cp, less and ls under VAX/VMS you
    first logged in (same as unix) but then you had to start a package
    (sorry, but I don't remember its name) to access its own command line
    and then run the UNIX- like comands.

    That's stuck with me because no UNIX or Linux system works that way.and
    logging to every other OS I've used has given immediate access to a
    command line.

    Now I am confused.

    If you login to VMS you have immediate access to DCL commands.

    Its been a very long time (1990 or thereabouts and thats the only VAX-
    based project I was on, but I distinctly remember that login gave you a
    command line, but if you wanted to, say, get rid of old versions of a few
    files you had to start a a portmanteau program that gave access to all the
    file and directory manipulation functions via its own command line, and
    once you'd done all that, toy exited from that program to get back to the command line where logging in had left you.

    If you want to use *nix commands you need to start something (very old Eunice, old posix or new GNV bash or something similar).

    At that time I'd not yet seen UNIX, but was familiar with a UNIX-like
    command line, first for seven years (1970-77) on ICL's George 3 OS (1900 hardware) and then another three years (1978-1981) on ICL's VME/B OS (2960 hardware).

    If you login to Linux you have immediate access to *nix commands.
    If you want to use DCL commands you need to start some third party DCL implementation (Sector 7 ??).

    Pass. While I'd been (amongst other things) a COBOL and assembler
    programmer and George 3 sysadmin on ICL 1900 kit and designed and written database systems on an ICL 2960 in COBOL using an IDMSX Codasyl database system, I was just a database developer on the VAX system, so had no
    knowledge of much about it apart from what I needed to write COBOL and interface that with DEC's relational database system.

    --

    Martin | martin at
    Gregorie | gregorie dot org

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  • From =?UTF-8?Q?Arne_Vajh=C3=B8j?=@3:770/3 to Martin Gregorie on Tue Nov 14 15:24:58 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 11/14/2023 3:10 PM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
    On Tue, 14 Nov 2023 13:41:27 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
    On 11/14/2023 1:21 PM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
    VMS seemed to have a few portmanteau commands where the other OSen had
    a host of single function commands. For instance, to access the
    equivalents of the Unix commands rm, cp, less and ls under VAX/VMS you
    first logged in (same as unix) but then you had to start a package
    (sorry, but I don't remember its name) to access its own command line
    and then run the UNIX- like comands.

    That's stuck with me because no UNIX or Linux system works that way.and
    logging to every other OS I've used has given immediate access to a
    command line.

    Now I am confused.

    If you login to VMS you have immediate access to DCL commands.

    Its been a very long time (1990 or thereabouts and thats the only VAX-
    based project I was on, but I distinctly remember that login gave you a command line, but if you wanted to, say, get rid of old versions of a few files you had to start a a portmanteau program that gave access to all the file and directory manipulation functions via its own command line, and
    once you'd done all that, toy exited from that program to get back to the command line where logging in had left you.

    Sounds like a very custom setup. Back in the days various
    captive scripts existed to limit users exposure to full DCL.
    But most offered a menu system. And if not fully captive DCL
    access was a menu item.

    Usually you just login and issue DCL commands.

    If you want to get rid of old versions of foobar.txt:

    $ purge foobar.txt

    I was just a database developer on the VAX system, so had no knowledge of much about it apart from what I needed to write COBOL and interface that with DEC's relational database system.


    VMS + Cobol + Rdb was a common combo - it is till used today.

    Did you use embedded SQL or Rdb module feature?

    Arne

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  • From druck@3:770/3 to Martin Gregorie on Tue Nov 14 22:59:52 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 13/11/2023 23:40, Martin Gregorie wrote:
    Several years later I did another project on DEC Alpha Servers running
    Tru64 UNIX, which I preferred to VMS, being a UNIX fanatic. Tru64 UNIXwas pretty much a straight-forward port of UNIX System V functions and
    programing tools onto a MACH-based kernel. This was amazingly fast for the era and fairly bullet-proof.

    I loved the Alpha, if there was any justice in the world it would have
    beaten the x86, but legal machinations and unexplicable madness
    happened. But not before DEC sprinkled some of their Alpha magic on the
    ARM to give us the StrongARM. Without which the architecture may not
    have been as widely adopted and we wouldn't have the Pi. Of course being
    wildly optimistic we could yet see ARM displacing x86, given the
    traction ARM is gaining in the data centre and on the desktop with
    Apple's M series - which was created by some of the design team of the
    Alpha - what goes around, comes around!

    ---druck

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  • From John Aldridge@3:770/3 to All on Tue Nov 14 23:49:44 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    In article <uj0u59$1dlnh$1@dont-email.me>, news@druck.org.uk says...
    I loved the Alpha, if there was any justice in the world it would have
    beaten the x86...

    Yup. There was a lovely few months when the fastest x86 processor was
    actually an Alpha running the FX!32 x86 emulator :)

    --
    John

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  • From Martin Gregorie@3:770/3 to All on Tue Nov 14 23:58:44 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On Tue, 14 Nov 2023 15:24:59 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

    $ purge foobar.txt

    Yes, I remember those periodic purges.

    I did like the customisable editor too and, IIRD, the ability to attach customisations to file types. If there was an open source version of that editor I might even be using it still.

    I was just a database developer on the VAX system, so had no
    knowledge of much about it apart from what I needed to write COBOL and
    interface that with DEC's relational database system.


    VMS + Cobol + Rdb was a common combo - it is till used today.

    Worked well too - one of the better COBOL implementations
    .
    Did you use embedded SQL or Rdb module feature?

    The Rdb module.

    The one real thumbs-down feature of the project, and the one that sank it,
    was the bloody awful James Martin Associates system design method and its almost equally poor diagramming rules. I mean, how can a usable Data
    Structure Diagram ever be built when the overall system design rules
    forbid you from adding any data items to entities but still let you insert relationships between entities? Straight away this means you have:
    (a) no way of verifying that the relationship is needed
    (b) no way of validating end-to-end data flows through the system DSD.

    IOW there's no way that you can verify the DSD, let alone get it reviewed
    and signed off.

    ...and meanwhile we, the database design team, were never able to build
    built a schema because the system designers never did hand us a usable DSD
    to work from.

    That surprised me because I'd bought a copy of James Martin's "Design of Man-Computer Dialogs" - IMO one of the best books on application system
    design I've ever seen. I bought my copy about ten years prior to that
    fiasco and used it extensively when a small team of us were building BBC
    Radio Three's music planning system: This was a complex system that had to track and record every stage of building and broadcasting a concert from
    the producer's original idea, checking that it wasn't too similar to any
    other concert that would be broadcast around the target date, tracking and booking all the performers and then, after the broadcast, making sure they
    were paid as well as handling the repeat fees paid to performers if any
    parts of a concert are rebroadcast later.

    I doubt that this system, known as Orpheus, would have gone together half
    so well without the ideas in that book,

    For the record, it was built on an ICL 2966 mainframe, written in COBOL
    and using IDMSX, a Codasyl database, as its data store. A BBC internal
    team, with me as an external member, had completed that that about ten
    years before the fiasco on the VAX.

    IIRC there were even JMA consultants on the team that failed complete the financial system on the VAX, but despite their presence, We never did get
    a completed data structure to work from before the project collapsed.


    --

    Martin | martin at
    Gregorie | gregorie dot org

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  • From 56d.1152@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Tue Nov 14 22:31:20 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 11/14/23 2:09 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 23:02:11 -0500
    "56d.1152" <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:

    There are some "ancient systems" that still see use. DOS
    is one of them - compact/efficient and still fair for
    embedded projects. CP/M derivs are also seen. OS9 is another -
    and yes it's still developed and for-sale. Most of the
    "big iron" systems from the 60s/70s went away however.

    Z/OS is still around and capable of running OS-360 binary
    applications as well as more modern unix based systems.


    Had forgotten about Z/OS ... a bit out of my
    price range at this point alas :-)

    Most of those old Big Iron systems were very
    well designed. No reason to completely throw
    them away. Unix is rather "aged" these days
    too - but it's still an inspired model, still
    suited to build upon.

    There's still a market for mainframes. McDonalds
    Corp does NOT run on a iPad. Worldwide biz,
    supply/financial logistics, soon you're using
    SERIOUS computing power and need a SERIOUS
    super-reliable/flexible OS to make it go. Wire a
    few of those big black IBM boxes together .....

    If VMS has a future, it's going to start with
    those sorts of uses.

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  • From 56d.1152@3:770/3 to Charlie Gibbs on Wed Nov 15 00:43:22 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 11/14/23 4:27 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
    On 2023-11-13, TimS <tim@streater.me.uk> wrote:

    On 13 Nov 2023 at 17:44:15 GMT, "Pancho" <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> wrote:

    Looking back on it now. I think the strangest thing about VMS was the
    Manual Set.

    Chap I shared an office with at SLAC back in the 80s was one of these
    hoarders. We not only had the current set of VMS doc in the office, but the >> complete previous set too, while he had the set before that in his garage at >> home.

    The one time I would hang on to old versions of manuals was when the
    vendor decided there were things you no longer needed to know (e.g.
    low-level I/O access), and deleted them from the new version.

    He was the sort of chap who, if you asked him for the 3-page doc that you'd >> loaned him a month previously, could unerringly poke into the 3-foot high pile
    (er, one of the piles, sorry), on his desk and pull it out straight away, with
    zero search time. This made complaining about the paper piles futile. "Works >> for me!"

    I do this frighteningly often. Of course, the whole thing falls apart when someone helpfully decides to "straighten things out".


    Heh, heh ... I didn't let them "straighten out" anything
    for nearly 40 years. Found a floppy set of Windows For
    Workgroups the other day - KNEW I had those SOMEWHERE :-)

    I'll have to see if I can install them on VirtualBox ...

    Found a photo of my office done over 20 years ago ...
    a lot of the same books still on the shelf.

    Got my MS Access 1.x manual, my Turbo Pascal v1 manual
    and IBM/MS Pascal manual. A 300 page VMS manual, a
    VIC-20 programming guide, several books on PICs back when
    the 16x series was top of the line. Lots of electronics
    books, some of which include vacuum tube diagrams that
    parallel the "newfangled" transistor circuits. Even
    have an IBM-PC Technical Reference Manual (with all those
    things "you don't need to know" ....

    In any case, I practice the "archeological" filing
    method ... older = deeper in the piles :-)

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  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to 56d.1152@ztq9.net on Wed Nov 15 07:44:42 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On Tue, 14 Nov 2023 22:31:20 -0500
    "56d.1152" <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:

    There's still a market for mainframes. McDonalds
    Corp does NOT run on a iPad. Worldwide biz,
    supply/financial logistics, soon you're using
    SERIOUS computing power and need a SERIOUS
    super-reliable/flexible OS to make it go. Wire a
    few of those big black IBM boxes together .....

    I don't know about McDonald's but these days a lot of really big systems run as a large (and variable) number of micro-services in
    containers under Kubernetes. Scalability is the watchword today. Sometimes
    they run on Z/OS machines (usually running Linux) otherwise they run on a
    mix of blade servers (CPU and RAM tightly packed) and SAN storage (lots of
    NVMe SSDs) connected with 40Gb or 100Gb ethernet. Infrastructure as a
    service they call it.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Pancho@3:770/3 to Martin Gregorie on Wed Nov 15 07:58:46 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 14/11/2023 23:58, Martin Gregorie wrote:
    On Tue, 14 Nov 2023 15:24:59 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

    $ purge foobar.txt

    Yes, I remember those periodic purges.

    I did like the customisable editor too and, IIRD, the ability to attach customisations to file types. If there was an open source version of that editor I might even be using it still.


    If you mean EVE based on Vax/TPU it was ported to Unix, circa ~1995,
    SunOS, or possibly Solaris. So it is possible there is a version
    floating about.

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  • From =?UTF-8?Q?Arne_Vajh=C3=B8j?=@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Wed Nov 15 08:10:58 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 11/15/2023 3:18 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 07:58:47 +0000
    Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> wrote:
    On 14/11/2023 23:58, Martin Gregorie wrote:
    I did like the customisable editor too and, IIRD, the ability to attach
    customisations to file types. If there was an open source version of
    that editor I might even be using it still.


    If you mean EVE based on Vax/TPU it was ported to Unix, circa ~1995,
    SunOS, or possibly Solaris. So it is possible there is a version
    floating about.

    There was also nuTPU for PC. Was as in "35 years ago". I don't think
    they exist anymore.

    Apparently there's an emulation of EVE available for Emacs.

    EVE <> TPU

    Mapping EVE keyboard definition in Emacs should be piece of cake.

    Getting TPU code interpreted in Emacs is a different thing. TPU
    is Pascal like not Lisp like. :-)

    Arne

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  • From =?UTF-8?Q?Arne_Vajh=C3=B8j?=@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Wed Nov 15 08:06:00 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 11/15/2023 2:44 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Tue, 14 Nov 2023 22:31:20 -0500
    "56d.1152" <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:
    There's still a market for mainframes. McDonalds
    Corp does NOT run on a iPad. Worldwide biz,
    supply/financial logistics, soon you're using
    SERIOUS computing power and need a SERIOUS
    super-reliable/flexible OS to make it go. Wire a
    few of those big black IBM boxes together .....

    I don't know about McDonald's but these days a lot of really big systems run as a large (and variable) number of micro-services in
    containers under Kubernetes. Scalability is the watchword today. Sometimes they run on Z/OS machines (usually running Linux) otherwise they run on a
    mix of blade servers (CPU and RAM tightly packed) and SAN storage (lots of NVMe SSDs) connected with 40Gb or 100Gb ethernet. Infrastructure as a
    service they call it.

    Most run such workloads in AWS/Azure/GCP/OCI.

    Arne

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  • From Johnny Billquist@3:770/3 to Jim Jackson on Wed Nov 15 14:59:50 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 2023-11-14 20:50, Jim Jackson wrote:
    On 2023-11-14, Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> wrote:

    With find it don't matter. Even the original is crazy. The one tool
    where the Unix paradigm got completely lost...

    I'm baffled by this.

    find finds stuff in the filesystem that match some conditions.

    What else does it do?

    Well, the question is - what does it do beyond walking the file system.
    Because it don't stop there.
    But first of all, it can walk the file system in different ways, and it
    can do selections while walking the file systems in myriads of ways.
    But then when it does match things, it can do all kind of stuff.
    Do you even understand how to use "prune" for example? If you do, try it
    and see if it actually gives the result you expect. (Yes, it is possible
    to use in the way one thinks, but it's not trivial to understand how it
    can be used.)

    But in the end, find can then run any arbitrary command, might not even
    be related to the files matched, but you can also make it run commands
    with the matching file name put into the command line.

    Johnny

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  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to arne@vajhoej.dk on Wed Nov 15 14:43:02 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 08:06:00 -0500
    Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:

    On 11/15/2023 2:44 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:

    I don't know about McDonald's but these days a lot of really big systems run as a large (and variable) number of micro-services in containers under Kubernetes. Scalability is the watchword today.
    Sometimes they run on Z/OS machines (usually running Linux) otherwise
    they run on a mix of blade servers (CPU and RAM tightly packed) and SAN storage (lots of NVMe SSDs) connected with 40Gb or 100Gb ethernet. Infrastructure as a service they call it.

    Most run such workloads in AWS/Azure/GCP/OCI.

    Of course, these environments are built for that purpose and allow
    the systems developers to assume the Kubernetes infrastructure without
    having to maintain it. But it is possible to run such workloads in a
    private data centre - "TrueNAS Scale" is one fairly easy way.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Jim Jackson@3:770/3 to Johnny Billquist on Wed Nov 15 14:58:14 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 2023-11-15, Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> wrote:
    On 2023-11-14 20:50, Jim Jackson wrote:
    On 2023-11-14, Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> wrote:

    With find it don't matter. Even the original is crazy. The one tool
    where the Unix paradigm got completely lost...

    I'm baffled by this.

    find finds stuff in the filesystem that match some conditions.

    What else does it do?

    Well, the question is - what does it do beyond walking the file system. Because it don't stop there.
    But first of all, it can walk the file system in different ways, and it
    can do selections while walking the file systems in myriads of ways.
    But then when it does match things, it can do all kind of stuff.
    Do you even understand how to use "prune" for example? If you do, try it
    and see if it actually gives the result you expect. (Yes, it is possible
    to use in the way one thinks, but it's not trivial to understand how it
    can be used.)

    But in the end, find can then run any arbitrary command, might not even
    be related to the files matched, but you can also make it run commands
    with the matching file name put into the command line.

    Yes it can ANOTHER command, big deal - vi is an editor and you can run
    a command from it, so what.

    As I said above find finds stuff in the filesystem that match some conditions. The fact that the filesystem is complex, so the condition matching is
    complex is by-the-by.

    Find does one thing and does it well.

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  • From Johnny Billquist@3:770/3 to Jim Jackson on Wed Nov 15 16:59:22 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 2023-11-15 15:58, Jim Jackson wrote:
    On 2023-11-15, Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> wrote:
    On 2023-11-14 20:50, Jim Jackson wrote:
    On 2023-11-14, Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> wrote:

    With find it don't matter. Even the original is crazy. The one tool
    where the Unix paradigm got completely lost...

    I'm baffled by this.

    find finds stuff in the filesystem that match some conditions.

    What else does it do?

    Well, the question is - what does it do beyond walking the file system.
    Because it don't stop there.
    But first of all, it can walk the file system in different ways, and it
    can do selections while walking the file systems in myriads of ways.
    But then when it does match things, it can do all kind of stuff.
    Do you even understand how to use "prune" for example? If you do, try it
    and see if it actually gives the result you expect. (Yes, it is possible
    to use in the way one thinks, but it's not trivial to understand how it
    can be used.)

    But in the end, find can then run any arbitrary command, might not even
    be related to the files matched, but you can also make it run commands
    with the matching file name put into the command line.

    Yes it can ANOTHER command, big deal - vi is an editor and you can run
    a command from it, so what.

    As I said above find finds stuff in the filesystem that match some conditions.
    The fact that the filesystem is complex, so the condition matching is
    complex is by-the-by.

    Find does one thing and does it well.

    Well. I don't fully agree with that, but I'm fine with just disagreeing
    without getting into any further discussions. I can certainly dig up
    other tools under Unix which left the "unix paradigm" behind a long time
    ago, if you want.

    COPY under VMS only does one thing as well, which is just copying files.
    So I still do not think VMS is really much different from Unix. The OP
    seems to have been using VMS with some additional layer which conflated
    the view, and don't really expose how one normally interacts with VMS.
    And that twisted experiece seems to have been the reason for the comment
    to start with. So I think we can lay this whole thread down.

    Johnny

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  • From Richard Kettlewell@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Wed Nov 15 17:04:22 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
    Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> wrote:
    Well. I don't fully agree with that, but I'm fine with just disagreeing
    without getting into any further discussions. I can certainly dig up
    other tools under Unix which left the "unix paradigm" behind a long time
    ago, if you want.

    Emacs springs to mind.

    Originated outside Unix, I think.

    dd seems like a good example. Present at least as far back as V5 Unix
    but its interface is belligerently different from any other Unix tool,
    and it’s at best an uneasy fit with the “do one thing well” approach of many of its siblings.

    --
    https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

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  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to Johnny Billquist on Wed Nov 15 16:06:14 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 16:59:23 +0100
    Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> wrote:

    Well. I don't fully agree with that, but I'm fine with just disagreeing without getting into any further discussions. I can certainly dig up
    other tools under Unix which left the "unix paradigm" behind a long time
    ago, if you want.

    Emacs springs to mind.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Rich Alderson@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Wed Nov 15 15:49:52 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:

    On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 16:59:23 +0100
    Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> wrote:

    Well. I don't fully agree with that, but I'm fine with just disagreeing
    without getting into any further discussions. I can certainly dig up
    other tools under Unix which left the "unix paradigm" behind a long time
    ago, if you want.

    Emacs springs to mind.

    Emacs is not a native Unix program.

    It originated as a library of functions written in an enhanced TECO for the PDP-10 that ran under ITS (MIT), TENEX (BBN), and TOPS-20 (TENEX with the serial numbers filed off by DEC).

    It was ported to an MIT dialect of LISP running under Multics, then versions for the MIT inspired Lisp machines came along.

    The C ports (including GNU) hark back to these Lisp versions.

    So there's no reason to expect Emacs to be a Unix style program.

    --
    Rich Alderson news@alderson.users.panix.com
    Audendum est, et veritas investiganda; quam etiamsi non assequamur,
    omnino tamen proprius, quam nunc sumus, ad eam perveniemus.
    --Galen

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  • From Rich Alderson@3:770/3 to Richard Kettlewell on Wed Nov 15 15:53:50 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> writes:

    Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
    Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> wrote:
    Well. I don't fully agree with that, but I'm fine with just disagreeing
    without getting into any further discussions. I can certainly dig up
    other tools under Unix which left the "unix paradigm" behind a long time >>> ago, if you want.

    Emacs springs to mind.

    Originated outside Unix, I think.

    Indeed.

    dd seems like a good example. Present at least as far back as V5 Unix
    but its interface is belligerently different from any other Unix tool,
    and it's at best an uneasy fit with the "do one thing well" approach of
    many of its siblings.

    dd was intentionally designed to mimic the behavior of OS/360 Job Control Language's Data Definition (DD) cards. It does that thing, and that thing only, very well.

    So dd has the Unix Nature (R).

    --
    Rich Alderson news@alderson.users.panix.com
    Audendum est, et veritas investiganda; quam etiamsi non assequamur,
    omnino tamen proprius, quam nunc sumus, ad eam perveniemus.
    --Galen

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  • From Johnny Billquist@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Wed Nov 15 21:57:44 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 2023-11-15 17:06, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 16:59:23 +0100
    Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> wrote:

    Well. I don't fully agree with that, but I'm fine with just disagreeing
    without getting into any further discussions. I can certainly dig up
    other tools under Unix which left the "unix paradigm" behind a long time
    ago, if you want.

    Emacs springs to mind.

    Well - Emacs don't really come from the Unix world to start with...

    But systemd always comes to my mind...

    Johnny

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  • From Johnny Billquist@3:770/3 to Richard Kettlewell on Wed Nov 15 21:59:36 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 2023-11-15 18:04, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
    Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
    Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> wrote:
    Well. I don't fully agree with that, but I'm fine with just disagreeing
    without getting into any further discussions. I can certainly dig up
    other tools under Unix which left the "unix paradigm" behind a long time >>> ago, if you want.

    Emacs springs to mind.

    Originated outside Unix, I think.

    Yes. PDP-10s. If it was ITS or TOPS-20 at the start, I dare not say.
    Written in TECO.

    dd seems like a good example. Present at least as far back as V5 Unix
    but its interface is belligerently different from any other Unix tool,
    and it’s at best an uneasy fit with the “do one thing well” approach of many of its siblings.

    I have some recollection that dd's interface comes from something like
    IBMs OS/360. But I could be very wrong on that one.

    Johnny

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  • From bill@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Wed Nov 15 16:05:20 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 11/15/2023 11:06 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 16:59:23 +0100
    Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> wrote:

    Well. I don't fully agree with that, but I'm fine with just disagreeing
    without getting into any further discussions. I can certainly dig up
    other tools under Unix which left the "unix paradigm" behind a long time
    ago, if you want.

    Emacs springs to mind.


    Emacs has nothing to do with Unix other than the fact that
    someone ported it late in the game.

    bill

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  • From druck@3:770/3 to Johnny Billquist on Wed Nov 15 21:05:42 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 14/11/2023 09:30, Johnny Billquist wrote:
    Source management is usually handled by one single program, even on most systems today. Be that cvs, svn, git or whatever.

    git is actually a collection of programs, when you run

    git command args

    it actually runs

    git-command args

    You can even write your own git utilities, call them git-something and
    put them on PATH, and they will run when you do

    git something

    ---druck

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  • From TimS@3:770/3 to news@alderson.users.panix.com on Wed Nov 15 21:42:02 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 15 Nov 2023 at 20:49:52 GMT, "Rich Alderson"
    <news@alderson.users.panix.com> wrote:

    So there's no reason to expect Emacs to be a Unix style program.

    I don't expect Emacs any more than I expect the Spanish Inquisition.

    --
    Tim

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  • From TimS@3:770/3 to Johnny Billquist on Wed Nov 15 21:44:54 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 15 Nov 2023 at 20:59:37 GMT, "Johnny Billquist" <bqt@softjar.se> wrote:

    On 2023-11-15 18:04, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
    Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
    Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> wrote:
    Well. I don't fully agree with that, but I'm fine with just disagreeing >>>> without getting into any further discussions. I can certainly dig up
    other tools under Unix which left the "unix paradigm" behind a long time >>>> ago, if you want.

    Emacs springs to mind.

    Originated outside Unix, I think.

    Yes. PDP-10s. If it was ITS or TOPS-20 at the start, I dare not say.
    Written in TECO.

    In commands that look like line-noise.

    dd seems like a good example. Present at least as far back as V5 Unix
    but its interface is belligerently different from any other Unix tool,
    and it’s at best an uneasy fit with the “do one thing well” approach of
    many of its siblings.

    I have some recollection that dd's interface comes from something like
    IBMs OS/360. But I could be very wrong on that one.

    Fortunately I was able to avoid that.

    --
    Tim

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  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to Johnny Billquist on Wed Nov 15 21:34:46 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 21:57:45 +0100
    Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> wrote:

    On 2023-11-15 17:06, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:

    Emacs springs to mind.

    Well - Emacs don't really come from the Unix world to start with...

    True - Teco editing macros originally.

    But systemd always comes to my mind...

    I try not to let it <shudder> - anyway that's a Linux thing not seen
    on any other unix (it's one reason I tend to avoid Linux). Apparently it's
    not even remotely portable.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

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  • From Johnny Billquist@3:770/3 to TimS on Wed Nov 15 23:29:46 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 2023-11-15 22:44, TimS wrote:
    On 15 Nov 2023 at 20:59:37 GMT, "Johnny Billquist" <bqt@softjar.se> wrote:

    On 2023-11-15 18:04, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
    Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
    Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> wrote:
    Well. I don't fully agree with that, but I'm fine with just disagreeing >>>>> without getting into any further discussions. I can certainly dig up >>>>> other tools under Unix which left the "unix paradigm" behind a long time >>>>> ago, if you want.

    Emacs springs to mind.

    Originated outside Unix, I think.

    Yes. PDP-10s. If it was ITS or TOPS-20 at the start, I dare not say.
    Written in TECO.

    In commands that look like line-noise.

    It has been described as a write-only language. Not undeservedly.

    That said - I do like to use TECO once in a while. It's still a pretty
    good tool.

    Johnny

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  • From Scott Dorsey@3:770/3 to Pancho.Jones@proton.me on Wed Nov 15 22:58:06 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    In article <uj1tno$1lkjn$1@dont-email.me>,
    Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> wrote:
    On 14/11/2023 23:58, Martin Gregorie wrote:
    On Tue, 14 Nov 2023 15:24:59 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

    $ purge foobar.txt

    Yes, I remember those periodic purges.

    I did like the customisable editor too and, IIRD, the ability to attach
    customisations to file types. If there was an open source version of that
    editor I might even be using it still.


    If you mean EVE based on Vax/TPU it was ported to Unix, circa ~1995,
    SunOS, or possibly Solaris. So it is possible there is a version
    floating about.

    It wasn't so much ported as rewritten from the bottom up when the
    folks at Boston Business Computing released nu/TPU which was a
    TPU-compatible package. It works really well, too.
    --scott
    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

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  • From Johnny Billquist@3:770/3 to druck on Wed Nov 15 23:33:44 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 2023-11-15 22:05, druck wrote:
    On 14/11/2023 09:30, Johnny Billquist wrote:
    Source management is usually handled by one single program, even on
    most systems today. Be that cvs, svn, git or whatever.

    git is actually a collection of programs, when you run

        git command args

    it actually runs

        git-command args

    You can even write your own git utilities, call them git-something and
    put them on PATH, and they will run when you do

        git something

    Yes. Some extensions are done that way. But the git binary itself is
    reponsible for the most core things, like committing, pushing, pulling...

    So no, there is no git-pull, no git-add, no git-merge and so on. But
    there are some git-<command> binaries.

    Maybe you could possibly call git a hybrid in this context.

    Johnny

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  • From Johnny Billquist@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Wed Nov 15 23:30:58 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 2023-11-15 22:34, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 21:57:45 +0100
    Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> wrote:

    But systemd always comes to my mind...

    I try not to let it <shudder> - anyway that's a Linux thing not seen
    on any other unix (it's one reason I tend to avoid Linux). Apparently it's not even remotely portable.

    Yeah. It's a monster. And tries to do all kind if stuff. Talk about
    breaking the Unix paradigm...

    Yes, I try to avoid Linux myself as well.

    Johnny

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  • From Richard Kettlewell@3:770/3 to druck on Wed Nov 15 23:01:40 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    druck <news@druck.org.uk> writes:
    Johnny Billquist wrote:
    Source management is usually handled by one single program, even on
    most systems today. Be that cvs, svn, git or whatever.

    git is actually a collection of programs, when you run

    git command args

    it actually runs

    git-command args

    Might have been once, but not any more.

    $ strace -etrace=execve -f git clone whatever
    execve("/usr/bin/git", ["git", "clone", "whatever"], 0x7fffeebfa9e0 /* 54 vars */) = 0
    fatal: repository 'whatever' does not exist
    +++ exited with 128 +++

    You can even write your own git utilities, call them git-something and
    put them on PATH, and they will run when you do

    git something

    I think that remains true.

    --
    https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

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  • From Johnny Billquist@3:770/3 to TimS on Wed Nov 15 23:27:36 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 2023-11-15 22:42, TimS wrote:
    On 15 Nov 2023 at 20:49:52 GMT, "Rich Alderson" <news@alderson.users.panix.com> wrote:

    So there's no reason to expect Emacs to be a Unix style program.

    I don't expect Emacs any more than I expect the Spanish Inquisition.

    Nobody...

    Johnny

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  • From bill@3:770/3 to Johnny Billquist on Wed Nov 15 18:51:52 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 11/15/2023 5:30 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
    On 2023-11-15 22:34, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 21:57:45 +0100
    Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> wrote:

    But systemd always comes to my mind...

        I try not to let it <shudder> - anyway that's a Linux thing not seen >> on any other unix (it's one reason I tend to avoid Linux). Apparently
    it's
    not even remotely portable.

    Yeah. It's a monster. And tries to do all kind if stuff. Talk about
    breaking the Unix paradigm...

    Yes, I try to avoid Linux myself as well.

    I use Linux. As a desktop just like I use Windows.
    For real computing I use real OSes. :-)

    bill

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  • From Single Stage to Orbit@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Wed Nov 15 23:51:12 2023
    On Wed, 2023-11-15 at 21:34 +0000, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    But systemd always comes to my mind...

            I try not to let it <shudder> - anyway that's a Linux thing not seen on any other unix (it's one reason I tend to avoid Linux). Apparently it's not even remotely portable.

    I've banned systemd from all my Linux systems. Some things should not
    exist. This is one of them.
    --
    Tactical Nuclear Kittens

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  • From Single Stage to Orbit@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Wed Nov 15 23:55:52 2023
    On Wed, 2023-11-15 at 21:34 +0000, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    But systemd always comes to my mind...

    I try not to let it <shudder> - anyway that's a Linux thing
    not seen on any other unix (it's one reason I tend to avoid Linux). Apparently it's not even remotely portable.

    I've banned systemd from all my Linux systems. Some things should not
    exist. This is one of them.
    --
    Tactical Nuclear Kittens

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  • From Chris Townley@3:770/3 to Scott Dorsey on Thu Nov 16 00:00:26 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 15/11/2023 22:58, Scott Dorsey wrote:
    In article <uj1tno$1lkjn$1@dont-email.me>,
    Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> wrote:
    On 14/11/2023 23:58, Martin Gregorie wrote:
    On Tue, 14 Nov 2023 15:24:59 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

    $ purge foobar.txt

    Yes, I remember those periodic purges.

    I did like the customisable editor too and, IIRD, the ability to attach
    customisations to file types. If there was an open source version of that >>> editor I might even be using it still.


    If you mean EVE based on Vax/TPU it was ported to Unix, circa ~1995,
    SunOS, or possibly Solaris. So it is possible there is a version
    floating about.

    It wasn't so much ported as rewritten from the bottom up when the
    folks at Boston Business Computing released nu/TPU which was a
    TPU-compatible package. It works really well, too.
    --scott

    Is nu/TPU still available anywhere. Sector 7 web site doesn't give any
    details, except that another produced it and the company that I found a
    link to elsewhere seemed to be no more

    --
    Chris

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  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to bill on Thu Nov 16 01:22:44 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 18:51:53 -0500
    bill <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> wrote:

    I use Linux. As a desktop just like I use Windows.

    I use FreeBSD and MacOS for desktops.

    For real computing I use real OSes. :-)

    For real computing I use FreeBSD.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

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  • From 56d.1152@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Thu Nov 16 00:47:54 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 11/15/23 9:43 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 08:06:00 -0500
    Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:

    On 11/15/2023 2:44 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:

    I don't know about McDonald's but these days a lot of really big
    systems run as a large (and variable) number of micro-services in
    containers under Kubernetes. Scalability is the watchword today.
    Sometimes they run on Z/OS machines (usually running Linux) otherwise
    they run on a mix of blade servers (CPU and RAM tightly packed) and SAN
    storage (lots of NVMe SSDs) connected with 40Gb or 100Gb ethernet.
    Infrastructure as a service they call it.

    Most run such workloads in AWS/Azure/GCP/OCI.

    Of course, these environments are built for that purpose and allow
    the systems developers to assume the Kubernetes infrastructure without
    having to maintain it. But it is possible to run such workloads in a
    private data centre - "TrueNAS Scale" is one fairly easy way.


    Sorry, but McDonalds Corporate, BOA, US Mil, etc ... they
    are NOT gonna work on Docker or Kubernetes on a bunch of
    tablets. IBM didn't pay big for RHEL to run it on laptops,
    but on its mainframes ......

    Decentralized usually = SLOW ... and INSECURE ... despite
    claims.

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  • From 56d.1152@3:770/3 to Single Stage to Orbit on Thu Nov 16 01:13:20 2023
    On 11/15/23 6:55 PM, Single Stage to Orbit wrote:
    On Wed, 2023-11-15 at 21:34 +0000, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    But systemd always comes to my mind...

    I try not to let it <shudder> - anyway that's a Linux thing
    not seen on any other unix (it's one reason I tend to avoid Linux).
    Apparently it's not even remotely portable.

    I've banned systemd from all my Linux systems. Some things should not
    exist. This is one of them.
    --
    Tactical Nuclear Kittens

    Now, now .... systemd *does* have some good
    uses. The downside is that how/what it does
    is a bit ... well ... complicated. Not AS bad
    as the Winders registry, but getting there.

    I like it because it'll monitor/restart daemons
    and start them at the right phase of things. Sure,
    you CAN do that all yourself, but, now, WHY ?

    OTOH I'll not knock those who stick with the old
    methods - those work too and are WELL documented
    and versatile.

    These are two APPROACHES to a number of common
    issues. Neither is 'evil', neither is 'wrong'.

    As for Linux/Unix though - THE issue is the
    "library version problem". I've seen NO good
    fixes for that. It's becoming a serious prob.
    I think it's the reason we're seeing more and
    more apps appearing as executables rather than
    as typical linix/unix "packages/ports".

    Hate to say it, but I
    *encourage* this - after an experience trying
    to install an alt version of FFMPEG, the
    "requires" tree was just TOO damned much, TOO
    damned destructive. Gimme something compiled
    with all it needs built right in rather than
    trying to compile from scratch with no slack
    in *exactly* what it expects to be co-installed.

    In this respect Winders IS actually "better".
    Hell, through XP/Vista I could still run ANCIENT
    apps, No Problem. The main prob became not
    Winders, but Intel dropping 8/16

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  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to 56d.1152@ztq9.net on Thu Nov 16 07:09:20 2023
    On Thu, 16 Nov 2023 01:13:21 -0500
    "56d.1152" <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:

    Now, now .... systemd *does* have some good
    uses. The downside is that how/what it does
    is a bit ... well ... complicated. Not AS bad
    as the Winders registry, but getting there.

    I like it because it'll monitor/restart daemons
    and start them at the right phase of things. Sure,
    you CAN do that all yourself, but, now, WHY ?

    BSD rc plus daemontools does everything I have ever needed in that regard - granted SysV rc is a mess.

    As for Linux/Unix though - THE issue is the
    "library version problem". I've seen NO good
    fixes for that. It's becoming a serious prob.

    FreeBSD ports and NetBSD pkgsrc both work well. I've not had a
    library version issue in a *long* time - except at work where I have to
    deal with Linux.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

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  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to 56d.1152@ztq9.net on Thu Nov 16 07:45:06 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On Thu, 16 Nov 2023 00:47:55 -0500
    "56d.1152" <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:

    On 11/15/23 9:43 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 08:06:00 -0500
    Of course, these environments are built for that purpose and
    allow the systems developers to assume the Kubernetes infrastructure without having to maintain it. But it is possible to run such workloads
    in a private data centre - "TrueNAS Scale" is one fairly easy way.

    Sorry, but McDonalds Corporate, BOA, US Mil, etc ... they
    are NOT gonna work on Docker or Kubernetes on a bunch of
    tablets.

    No most corporate use of Kubernetes is on data centres full of
    blades, NVMe based SANs, NetApps and Isilon clusters. This is the world
    that pays my wages - I know how big it is and who uses it, including
    outfits the size you're talking about, many of them are customers of my
    current and previous employers.

    IBM didn't pay big for RHEL to run it on laptops,
    but on its mainframes ......

    Yes they are popular with banks and the like because they *also*
    run their old OS-360 stuff without recompiling it, but to anyone who
    doesn't need that they are very expensive for little gain. Guess what many
    of their customers run in the RHEL environments - yep kubernetes and docker.

    Decentralized usually = SLOW ... and INSECURE ... despite
    claims.

    Tell that to Amazon, Google etc. look into the architecture of
    Amazon Dynamo and marvel at the way it scales and handles machine failures
    and network outages. Mainframes are great up to a point, right up until you can't get one big enough and then you *need* a scalable solution.
    kubernetes is an easy way to get one.

    I was involved in doing it the hard way back in 1990 when the UK
    Inland Revenue had a problem their ICL mainframe team declared impossible, twenty high end 88k boxes and a distributed architecture made it possible.
    No mainframe could match the IO bandwidth or CPU power of that solution,
    using it effectively took careful design.

    SAAS is huge in the large corporate world, it all runs on
    virtual machines and docker containers orchestrated by kubernetes. It's
    only insecure if you don't know how to secure it, the most security
    sensitive run it all in their own datacentres on hypervisors that they
    control. The rest trust the contractual obligations of the companies that
    run the data centres (Microsoft, Google and Amazon mostly).

    The big trend in large users these days is micro-services in docker containers. Instead of an OS image running in the container there is only
    the application and support libraries running on bare virtual metal.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

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  • From Bob Eager@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Thu Nov 16 08:14:00 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On Thu, 16 Nov 2023 01:22:45 +0000, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:

    On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 18:51:53 -0500 bill <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com>
    wrote:

    I use Linux. As a desktop just like I use Windows.

    I use FreeBSD and MacOS for desktops.

    For real computing I use real OSes. :-)

    For real computing I use FreeBSD.

    +1

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  • From Single Stage to Orbit@3:770/3 to All on Thu Nov 16 08:50:58 2023
    On Thu, 2023-11-16 at 01:13 -0500, 56d.1152 wrote:
       As for Linux/Unix though - THE issue is the
       "library version problem". I've seen NO good
       fixes for that. It's becoming a serious prob.
       I think it's the reason we're seeing more and
       more apps appearing as executables rather than
       as typical linix/unix "packages/ports".

    These are solved issues for me personally since my distro is Gentoo.
    --
    Tactical Nuclear Kittens

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  • From Pancho@3:770/3 to bill on Thu Nov 16 09:00:52 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 15/11/2023 23:51, bill wrote:


    I use Linux.  As a desktop just like I use Windows.
    For real computing I use real OSes.  :-)


    For any computing, I like to have good driver support.

    For real computing, I use Docker.

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  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to 56d.1152@ztq9.net on Thu Nov 16 10:21:04 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On Thu, 16 Nov 2023 00:47:55 -0500
    "56d.1152" <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:

    Sorry, but McDonalds Corporate, BOA, US Mil, etc ... they
    are NOT gonna work on Docker or Kubernetes on a bunch of

    McDonald's don't use mainframes they use AWS which mostly uses -
    you guessed it - kubernetes.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Thu Nov 16 11:02:52 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 15/11/2023 21:34, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 21:57:45 +0100
    Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> wrote:

    On 2023-11-15 17:06, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:

    Emacs springs to mind.

    Well - Emacs don't really come from the Unix world to start with...

    True - Teco editing macros originally.

    But systemd always comes to my mind...

    I try not to let it <shudder> - anyway that's a Linux thing not seen
    on any other unix (it's one reason I tend to avoid Linux). Apparently it's not even remotely portable.

    Systemd will be fine now Poettering has finished pottering with it, got
    bored and is looking at something else to fuck up beyond all recognition. Anther 50 man years of debugging and rewriting init scripts and quietly discarding its worst stupidities and it will be no worse than X windows, JavaScript, or PostScript.

    --
    For in reason, all government without the consent of the governed is the
    very definition of slavery.

    Jonathan Swift

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  • From Dave Froble@3:770/3 to All on Thu Nov 16 08:00:10 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 11/16/2023 12:47 AM, 56d.1152 wrote:
    On 11/15/23 9:43 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 08:06:00 -0500
    Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:

    On 11/15/2023 2:44 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:

    I don't know about McDonald's but these days a lot of really big
    systems run as a large (and variable) number of micro-services in
    containers under Kubernetes. Scalability is the watchword today.
    Sometimes they run on Z/OS machines (usually running Linux) otherwise
    they run on a mix of blade servers (CPU and RAM tightly packed) and SAN >>>> storage (lots of NVMe SSDs) connected with 40Gb or 100Gb ethernet.
    Infrastructure as a service they call it.

    Most run such workloads in AWS/Azure/GCP/OCI.

    Of course, these environments are built for that purpose and allow
    the systems developers to assume the Kubernetes infrastructure without
    having to maintain it. But it is possible to run such workloads in a
    private data centre - "TrueNAS Scale" is one fairly easy way.


    Sorry, but McDonalds Corporate, BOA, US Mil, etc ... they
    are NOT gonna work on Docker or Kubernetes on a bunch of
    tablets. IBM didn't pay big for RHEL to run it on laptops,
    but on its mainframes ......

    Decentralized usually = SLOW ... and INSECURE ... despite
    claims.

    Yeah ...

    Our former clients moved to "cloud solutions". They learned rather quickly that
    they would not have their prior capabilities. Not sure just how much business they can now handle, and, it's taking much more manpower. "But, it's what everyone else does." Really?

    Not that we gave them much of a choice. Either take over our software, which was offered, or find another solution. They didn't want to be in the software business. Not sure what anyone would call all the human labor is to support their "cloud solution".

    --
    David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
    Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
    DFE Ultralights, Inc.
    170 Grimplin Road
    Vanderbilt, PA 15486

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  • From Single Stage to Orbit@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Thu Nov 16 13:18:44 2023
    On Thu, 2023-11-16 at 11:38 +0000, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    Systemd will be fine now Poettering has finished pottering with it,
    got

            It's never going to be portable to anything but Linux, that's enough to write it off for me.

    IATWP.
    --
    Tactical Nuclear Kittens

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  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Thu Nov 16 11:38:34 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On Thu, 16 Nov 2023 11:02:52 +0000
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 15/11/2023 21:34, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 21:57:45 +0100

    I try not to let it <shudder> - anyway that's a Linux thing not
    seen on any other unix (it's one reason I tend to avoid Linux).
    Apparently it's not even remotely portable.

    Systemd will be fine now Poettering has finished pottering with it, got

    It's never going to be portable to anything but Linux, that's
    enough to write it off for me.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

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  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to Dave Froble on Thu Nov 16 14:59:24 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On Thu, 16 Nov 2023 08:00:11 -0500
    Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:

    Our former clients moved to "cloud solutions". They learned rather
    quickly that they would not have their prior capabilities. Not sure just
    how much business they can now handle, and, it's taking much more
    manpower. "But, it's what everyone else does." Really?

    So they did it badly - not uncommon. Amazon could not function
    without a distributed, scalable, fault tolerant system, there's no way you could run Amazon mainframe style. Even their core database is distributed, scalable and fault tolerant relying on guaranteed eventual consistency
    rather than ACID which does not scale.

    McDonald's did it well.

    <https://www.ciodive.com/news/mcdonalds-cloud-ETL-talend-digital-transformation/523132/


    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

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  • From Richard Kettlewell@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Thu Nov 16 16:28:26 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
    Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
    On 11/16/2023 6:38 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    It's never going to be portable to anything but Linux, that's enough
    to write it off for me.

    Is it surprising that a startup system for Linux is coupled with
    Linux?

    Yes given that Linux purports to be a unix which has always had portability as a major feature.

    Portability to different CPUs, sure, but portability of system tools to
    other kernels? Who ever said that was a goal of Linux as such?

    (Some of them _are_ somewhat portable, and the GNU project in
    particulary lists tool portability as a goal, albeit with some nuance,
    but that’s not the same thing.)

    --
    https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

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  • From Richard Kettlewell@3:770/3 to Richard Kettlewell on Thu Nov 16 16:35:58 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> writes:
    Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
    Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> wrote:
    Well. I don't fully agree with that, but I'm fine with just
    disagreeing without getting into any further discussions. I can
    certainly dig up other tools under Unix which left the "unix
    paradigm" behind a long time ago, if you want.

    Emacs springs to mind.

    Originated outside Unix, I think.

    dd seems like a good example. Present at least as far back as V5 Unix
    but its interface is belligerently different from any other Unix tool,
    and it’s at best an uneasy fit with the “do one thing well” approach of many of its siblings.

    Oh, and the kernel is an example, of course. Process management, memory management, hardware drivers, multiple quite different kinds of IO and
    some other stuff, all in a single monolithic whole. Completely the
    opposite of the “do one thing well” principle. The reasons for this aren’t terrible but let’s not pretend that the Unix kernel is an
    examplar of the Unix philosophy l-)

    --
    https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

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  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to arne@vajhoej.dk on Thu Nov 16 16:33:26 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On Thu, 16 Nov 2023 10:51:04 -0500
    Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:

    On 11/16/2023 9:59 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:

    So they did it badly - not uncommon. Amazon could not function
    without a distributed, scalable, fault tolerant system, there's no way
    you could run Amazon mainframe style. Even their core database is distributed, scalable and fault tolerant relying on guaranteed eventual consistency rather than ACID which does not scale.

    I believe Amazon is using many different databases.

    AWS provides many databases. Dynamo was created to support Amazon's original core business of being a huge international shopping site.

    McDonald's did it well.

    <https://www.ciodive.com/news/mcdonalds-cloud-ETL-talend-digital-transformation/523132/

    It seems that article is about DWH not operational data. Different.

    It's about analytics that record every sale in every McDonald's in
    the world and drives their decision making. The point is that it scales
    beyond anything that could be done on a mainframe.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From =?UTF-8?Q?Arne_Vajh=C3=B8j?=@3:770/3 to Dave Froble on Thu Nov 16 08:20:18 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 11/16/2023 8:00 AM, Dave Froble wrote:
    Our former clients moved to "cloud solutions".  They learned rather
    quickly that they would not have their prior capabilities.  Not sure
    just how much business they can now handle, and, it's taking much more manpower.  "But, it's what everyone else does."  Really?

    I would think the capabilities depend on the software
    and not on where it is hosted.

    I assume they made two changes at the same time:
    * dedicated physical system -> public cloud
    * application X -> application Y

    The loss of capabilities has to be because of the
    second bullet.

    If your application had been ported to VMS x86-64 and
    the customers had deployed it in AWS/Azure/GCP/OCI then
    it would have worked as well as always.

    Arne

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  • From =?UTF-8?Q?Arne_Vajh=C3=B8j?=@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Thu Nov 16 08:26:32 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 11/16/2023 6:38 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Thu, 16 Nov 2023 11:02:52 +0000
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 15/11/2023 21:34, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 21:57:45 +0100
    I try not to let it <shudder> - anyway that's a Linux thing not
    seen on any other unix (it's one reason I tend to avoid Linux).
    Apparently it's not even remotely portable.

    Systemd will be fine now Poettering has finished pottering with it, got

    It's never going to be portable to anything but Linux, that's
    enough to write it off for me.

    Is it surprising that a startup system for Linux
    is coupled with Linux?

    The code in VMS that execute SYS$SYSTEM:STARTUP.COM
    and SYS$MANGER:SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM are probably not
    portable to any other OS either.

    (but likely only 1/100'th of the code in systemd)

    Arne

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  • From Scott Dorsey@3:770/3 to steveo@eircom.net on Thu Nov 16 13:36:16 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

    Yes they are popular with banks and the like because they *also*
    run their old OS-360 stuff without recompiling it, but to anyone who
    doesn't need that they are very expensive for little gain. Guess what many
    of their customers run in the RHEL environments - yep kubernetes and docker.

    The IBM systems are I/O machines. The CPU is just sitting there telling the I/O controllers what to do and most of the real work is being done by other hardware outside the CPU. So you can have incredibly high workloads and
    huge transation rates with relatively slow CPUs.

    This was a huge win as late as a decade ago, but these days it's not that
    much of a win unless you have a write-mostly database that is inefficient
    to distribute. Because CPU has become so damn cheap that we just throw
    CPU at problems now.

    Decentralized usually = SLOW ... and INSECURE ... despite
    claims.

    Tell that to Amazon, Google etc. look into the architecture of
    Amazon Dynamo and marvel at the way it scales and handles machine failures >and network outages. Mainframes are great up to a point, right up until you >can't get one big enough and then you *need* a scalable solution.
    kubernetes is an easy way to get one.

    This is true, but Amazon and Google -are- still slow and insecure in ways
    that I don't think is apparently obvious. Instead of keeping one thing
    secure, you have thousands upon thousands to keep secure.

    SAAS is huge in the large corporate world, it all runs on
    virtual machines and docker containers orchestrated by kubernetes. It's
    only insecure if you don't know how to secure it, the most security
    sensitive run it all in their own datacentres on hypervisors that they >control. The rest trust the contractual obligations of the companies that
    run the data centres (Microsoft, Google and Amazon mostly).

    This is where the scary part is, yes.
    --scott

    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

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  • From =?UTF-8?Q?Arne_Vajh=C3=B8j?=@3:770/3 to All on Thu Nov 16 08:33:20 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 11/16/2023 12:47 AM, 56d.1152 wrote:
    On 11/15/23 9:43 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 08:06:00 -0500
    Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
    On 11/15/2023 2:44 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
        I don't know about McDonald's but these days a lot of really big >>>> systems run as a large (and variable) number of micro-services in
    containers under Kubernetes. Scalability is the watchword today.
    Sometimes they run on Z/OS machines (usually running Linux) otherwise
    they run on a mix of blade servers (CPU and RAM tightly packed) and SAN >>>> storage (lots of NVMe SSDs) connected with 40Gb or 100Gb ethernet.
    Infrastructure as a service they call it.

    Most run such workloads in AWS/Azure/GCP/OCI.
        Of course, these environments are built for that purpose and allow >> the systems developers to assume the Kubernetes infrastructure without
    having to maintain it. But it is possible to run such workloads in a
    private data centre - "TrueNAS Scale" is one fairly easy way.

      Sorry, but McDonalds Corporate, BOA, US Mil, etc ... they
      are NOT gonna work on Docker or Kubernetes on a bunch of
      tablets. IBM didn't pay big for RHEL to run it on laptops,
      but on its mainframes ......

    RHEL big market is x86-64 servers. Mainframe is a small part
    (too few mainframes, only some of them running Linux and
    RHEL is just one out of many Linux distros used on mainframe).

    Arne

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  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to arne@vajhoej.dk on Thu Nov 16 13:50:00 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On Thu, 16 Nov 2023 08:26:33 -0500
    Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:

    On 11/16/2023 6:38 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:

    It's never going to be portable to anything but Linux, that's
    enough to write it off for me.

    Is it surprising that a startup system for Linux
    is coupled with Linux?

    Yes given that Linux purports to be a unix which has always had portability as a major feature. You can use SysV or BSD init (Linux used to
    use SysV init) on Linux or any other unix quite easily. You cannot use
    systemd on anything unix than Linux - and yes there are still many unix
    systems that are not Linux.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

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  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to Richard Kettlewell on Thu Nov 16 17:03:24 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On Thu, 16 Nov 2023 16:28:27 +0000
    Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
    Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
    On 11/16/2023 6:38 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    It's never going to be portable to anything but Linux, that's enough
    to write it off for me.

    Is it surprising that a startup system for Linux is coupled with
    Linux?

    Yes given that Linux purports to be a unix which has always had portability as a major feature.

    Portability to different CPUs, sure, but portability of system tools to
    other kernels? Who ever said that was a goal of Linux as such?

    It's always been a goal in the unix world - which Linux seems to be leaving.

    Linux as an operating system exists because all the tools provided
    by the GNU project and MIT X-Windows and ... were designed to be portable across every variant of unix extant at the time (a lot more than today).
    Apart from systemd the only things I know of that only run on Linux and not
    on any other unix are commercial closed source binaries - and even most of
    them can be run on FreeBSD using the Linux compatibility layer.

    The other major camp of open source unix shares code very freely - NetBSD's pkgsrc was originally based on FreeBSD ports and is used in DragonFLyBSD for example. AT&T's SysVR4 was able to incorporate code from
    BSD and XENIX because the code was designed to be portable.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to Scott Dorsey on Thu Nov 16 15:46:36 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 16 Nov 2023 13:36:17 -0000
    kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

    The IBM systems are I/O machines. The CPU is just sitting there telling
    the I/O controllers what to do and most of the real work is being done by other hardware outside the CPU. So you can have incredibly high
    workloads and huge transation rates with relatively slow CPUs.

    Yes you can but ...

    This was a huge win as late as a decade ago, but these days it's not that much of a win unless you have a write-mostly database that is inefficient
    to distribute. Because CPU has become so damn cheap that we just throw
    CPU at problems now.

    Back in 1990 I was involved in designing a system that could not
    have been run on the mainframes of the day because they had insufficient IO bandwidth but a distributed solution spread across twenty high end 88K
    machines did.

    Tell that to Amazon, Google etc. look into the architecture of
    Amazon Dynamo and marvel at the way it scales and handles machine
    failures and network outages. Mainframes are great up to a point, right
    up until you can't get one big enough and then you *need* a scalable >solution. kubernetes is an easy way to get one.

    This is true, but Amazon and Google -are- still slow and insecure in ways that I don't think is apparently obvious. Instead of keeping one thing secure, you have thousands upon thousands to keep secure.

    Yes but instead of trying to secure each one individually you write rules which are used by the deployment engine (kubernetes usually).

    A single instance implemented on virtual hardware is certainly
    slower than the same thing implemented on bare metal - the win comes from having a scalable design. The artful part is making the design scalable and
    not putting bottlenecks in it. If the single instance is 1/10th the speed
    of bare metal but you can run a thousand instances in parallel then you
    have 100 times the speed of bare metal.

    SAAS is huge in the large corporate world, it all runs on
    virtual machines and docker containers orchestrated by kubernetes. It's >only insecure if you don't know how to secure it, the most security >sensitive run it all in their own datacentres on hypervisors that they >control. The rest trust the contractual obligations of the companies that >run the data centres (Microsoft, Google and Amazon mostly).

    This is where the scary part is, yes.

    Yes it is - that's why my data lives at home. I don't need scalable solutions thankfully. Those who do and care a lot run their own.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

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  • From =?UTF-8?Q?Arne_Vajh=C3=B8j?=@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Thu Nov 16 10:51:04 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 11/16/2023 9:59 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Thu, 16 Nov 2023 08:00:11 -0500
    Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
    Our former clients moved to "cloud solutions". They learned rather
    quickly that they would not have their prior capabilities. Not sure just
    how much business they can now handle, and, it's taking much more
    manpower. "But, it's what everyone else does." Really?

    So they did it badly - not uncommon. Amazon could not function
    without a distributed, scalable, fault tolerant system, there's no way you could run Amazon mainframe style. Even their core database is distributed, scalable and fault tolerant relying on guaranteed eventual consistency
    rather than ACID which does not scale.

    I believe Amazon is using many different databases.

    Some that provide traditional consistency (MySQL and AuroraDB) and
    some that provide eventual consistency (DynamoDB and SimpleDB).

    McDonald's did it well.

    <https://www.ciodive.com/news/mcdonalds-cloud-ETL-talend-digital-transformation/523132/

    It seems that article is about DWH not operational data. Different.

    Arne

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  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to Richard Kettlewell on Thu Nov 16 18:02:02 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On Thu, 16 Nov 2023 16:35:59 +0000
    Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    Oh, and the kernel is an example, of course. Process management, memory management, hardware drivers, multiple quite different kinds of IO and
    some other stuff, all in a single monolithic whole. Completely the
    opposite of the “do one thing well” principle. The reasons for this aren’t terrible but let’s not pretend that the Unix kernel is an
    examplar of the Unix philosophy l-)

    Excellent point - there's the Mach kernel of course which gets
    closer.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Richard Kettlewell@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Thu Nov 16 19:08:02 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:

    On Thu, 16 Nov 2023 16:28:27 +0000
    Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
    Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
    On 11/16/2023 6:38 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    It's never going to be portable to anything but Linux, that's enough >>>>> to write it off for me.

    Is it surprising that a startup system for Linux is coupled with
    Linux?

    Yes given that Linux purports to be a unix which has always had
    portability as a major feature.

    Portability to different CPUs, sure, but portability of system tools
    to other kernels? Who ever said that was a goal of Linux as such?

    It's always been a goal in the unix world - which Linux seems to be
    leaving.

    Maybe. It was certainly convenient for certain components to be
    portable, like X11 as you mention, but I think it’s a stretch to infer
    that there was a widely shared goal that the lower-level system tools
    should be portable too. Things like, say, package management and device
    driver handling have been very different across platforms for a very
    long time (the former in fact even within Linux).

    In the more recent case of systemd, a lot of the functionality depends
    on Linux-specific interfaces. Porting it would presumably be a
    non-starter until this existed in some form in other operating systems,
    and nobody maintaining other operating systems seems to be interested in
    doing so.

    Linux as an operating system exists because all the tools provided
    by the GNU project and MIT X-Windows and ... were designed to be portable across every variant of unix extant at the time (a lot more than today).

    That doesn’t make it a goal _of Linux_, even if it was a goal of the GNU
    and X11 projects.

    --
    https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

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  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to Richard Kettlewell on Thu Nov 16 20:20:30 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On Thu, 16 Nov 2023 19:08:03 +0000
    Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    Maybe. It was certainly convenient for certain components to be
    portable, like X11 as you mention, but I think it’s a stretch to infer
    that there was a widely shared goal that the lower-level system tools
    should be portable too. Things like, say, package management and device driver handling have been very different across platforms for a very
    long time (the former in fact even within Linux).

    Package management is a relatively new feature of unix (it's
    about half the age of unix) - but NetBSD's pkgsrc is designed to be portable and can be used on pretty much any unix including Linux. The FreeBSD ports system (one of the first) is written in make and the system (but not the
    ports themselves) would be easy enough to get going on any other unix with
    a BSD compatible make available.

    Device drivers are of course largely kernel dependent and generally
    not portable - notable exception for DRI/DRM which are surprisingly
    portable. That being said it is quite common to port device drivers between
    the BSDs despite the divergence in the kernels over the years, none of them would take Linux device drivers because GPL.

    In the more recent case of systemd, a lot of the functionality depends
    on Linux-specific interfaces. Porting it would presumably be a

    Apart from systemd every other init system is shell script based
    and reasonably easy to port, systemd is a huge departure from convention.

    non-starter until this existed in some form in other operating systems,
    and nobody maintaining other operating systems seems to be interested in doing so.

    Nobody maintaining other operating systems wants them to become
    Linux based which is essentially what would be needed.

    Linux as an operating system exists because all the tools
    provided by the GNU project and MIT X-Windows and ... were designed to
    be portable across every variant of unix extant at the time (a lot more than today).

    That doesn’t make it a goal _of Linux_, even if it was a goal of the GNU and X11 projects.

    You missed the "and ...", Linux based OSs are the odd ones out in
    this regard which is sad given that Linux as an OS owes its entire
    existence to the fact that everyone else in the unix world cares about portability. Without the GNU project's portable utilities there would be no Linux distros, there wouldn't even be a compiler to build the kernel! If
    MIT had chosen to make X11 tightly bound to a single kernel there would be
    no Linux graphics.

    IMHO it should be a goal of Linux OS development to be a good
    member of the unix community without which there would be no Linux. But
    you're right it seems that it isn't something that RedHat, Debian, Ubuntu
    et al care about.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From druck@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Thu Nov 16 21:15:34 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 16/11/2023 11:38, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Thu, 16 Nov 2023 11:02:52 +0000
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    Systemd will be fine now Poettering has finished pottering with it, got

    It's never going to be portable to anything but Linux, that's
    enough to write it off for me.

    As time goes on it becomes easier to port other OS's to systemd, simply
    by deleting all of the stuff which duplicates the ever increasing
    functionality provided by systemd.

    :)

    ---druck

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  • From Dave Froble@3:770/3 to All on Thu Nov 16 19:04:36 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 11/16/2023 8:20 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
    On 11/16/2023 8:00 AM, Dave Froble wrote:
    Our former clients moved to "cloud solutions". They learned rather quickly >> that they would not have their prior capabilities. Not sure just how much >> business they can now handle, and, it's taking much more manpower. "But, it's
    what everyone else does." Really?

    I would think the capabilities depend on the software
    and not on where it is hosted.

    I assume they made two changes at the same time:
    * dedicated physical system -> public cloud
    * application X -> application Y

    The loss of capabilities has to be because of the
    second bullet.

    If your application had been ported to VMS x86-64 and
    the customers had deployed it in AWS/Azure/GCP/OCI then
    it would have worked as well as always.

    I would agree, however, everyone in the company was well over retirement age. We offered to help them set up their own shop. I guess they found it an opportunity to switch to WEENDOZE.


    --
    David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
    Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
    DFE Ultralights, Inc.
    170 Grimplin Road
    Vanderbilt, PA 15486

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  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to Robert Riches on Fri Nov 17 07:13:46 2023
    On 17 Nov 2023 03:51:49 GMT
    Robert Riches <spamtrap42@jacob21819.net> wrote:

    A decade or so ago, a program called 'monit' handled monitoring
    and restarting of daemons quite nicely. However, I don't know
    whether it's still maintained.

    monit 5.3.3 released Feb 2023 is in FreeBSD ports. So yes it is
    still maintained and quite popular.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Richard Kettlewell on Fri Nov 17 09:48:10 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 17/11/2023 09:36, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
    The lack of portability of systemd can hardly be an objection to it if
    nobody in the platforms that it can’t be ported to is interested in adopting it anyway.

    LOL!

    --
    "And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch".

    Gospel of St. Mathew 15:14

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Richard Kettlewell on Fri Nov 17 09:48:44 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 17/11/2023 09:36, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
    There’s still nothing there that demonstrates Linux ever had a goal of portable system-level tools. I get that you think it should do, but
    wanting isn’t getting.

    Who will bell the cat?

    --
    "And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch".

    Gospel of St. Mathew 15:14

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  • From Richard Kettlewell@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Fri Nov 17 09:36:02 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
    Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    Maybe. It was certainly convenient for certain components to be
    portable, like X11 as you mention, but I think it’s a stretch to infer
    that there was a widely shared goal that the lower-level system tools
    should be portable too. Things like, say, package management and device
    driver handling have been very different across platforms for a very
    long time (the former in fact even within Linux).

    Package management is a relatively new feature of unix (it's about
    half the age of unix) - but NetBSD's pkgsrc is designed to be portable
    and can be used on pretty much any unix including Linux. The FreeBSD
    ports system (one of the first) is written in make and the system (but
    not the ports themselves) would be easy enough to get going on any
    other unix with a BSD compatible make available.

    System V’s packages were, what, 1990 or so? So nearer a third of its
    current age I would say. I’m not even sure they were the first.

    Be that as it may the fact that some of them are in principle portable doesn’t change the fact that nobody has ever much tried to use any
    particular one outside its home platform. So I think they form a
    reasonable counterexample to the idea of a common goal of portability of system-level components.

    Device drivers are of course largely kernel dependent and generally
    not portable - notable exception for DRI/DRM which are surprisingly
    portable. That being said it is quite common to port device drivers
    between the BSDs despite the divergence in the kernels over the years,
    none of them would take Linux device drivers because GPL.

    Well, yes, there’s practical reasons why it happened like that, but they aren’t insurmountable: we have common extension APIs in many other
    contexts, but apparently nobody was ever motivated to do it for drivers, despite the obvious advantages.

    In the more recent case of systemd, a lot of the functionality depends
    on Linux-specific interfaces. Porting it would presumably be a

    Apart from systemd every other init system is shell script based and reasonably easy to port, systemd is a huge departure from convention.

    SMF and launchd are both counterexamples AFAIK. A lot of the original
    Unix design decisions were fairly novel at the time too but many of them
    have proved to be good ones.

    non-starter until this existed in some form in other operating systems,
    and nobody maintaining other operating systems seems to be interested in
    doing so.

    Nobody maintaining other operating systems wants them to become Linux
    based which is essentially what would be needed.

    The lack of portability of systemd can hardly be an objection to it if
    nobody in the platforms that it can’t be ported to is interested in
    adopting it anyway.

    Linux as an operating system exists because all the tools
    provided by the GNU project and MIT X-Windows and ... were designed to
    be portable across every variant of unix extant at the time (a lot more
    than today).

    That doesn’t make it a goal _of Linux_, even if it was a goal of the GNU >> and X11 projects.

    You missed the "and ...", Linux based OSs are the odd ones out in
    this regard which is sad given that Linux as an OS owes its entire
    existence to the fact that everyone else in the unix world cares about portability. Without the GNU project's portable utilities there would be no Linux distros, there wouldn't even be a compiler to build the kernel! If
    MIT had chosen to make X11 tightly bound to a single kernel there would be
    no Linux graphics.

    There’s still nothing there that demonstrates Linux ever had a goal of portable system-level tools. I get that you think it should do, but
    wanting isn’t getting.

    --
    https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From =?UTF-8?Q?Arne_Vajh=C3=B8j?=@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Fri Nov 17 07:46:36 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 11/16/2023 11:33 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Thu, 16 Nov 2023 10:51:04 -0500
    Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
    On 11/16/2023 9:59 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    So they did it badly - not uncommon. Amazon could not function
    without a distributed, scalable, fault tolerant system, there's no way
    you could run Amazon mainframe style. Even their core database is
    distributed, scalable and fault tolerant relying on guaranteed eventual
    consistency rather than ACID which does not scale.

    I believe Amazon is using many different databases.

    AWS provides many databases. Dynamo was created to support Amazon's original core business of being a huge international shopping site.

    That list was what Amazon use not what AWS offers to customers - that
    list is longer.

    McDonald's did it well.

    <https://www.ciodive.com/news/mcdonalds-cloud-ETL-talend-digital-transformation/523132/

    It seems that article is about DWH not operational data. Different.

    It's about analytics that record every sale in every McDonald's in
    the world and drives their decision making. The point is that it scales beyond anything that could be done on a mainframe.

    Very true.

    When big data is actually big then clusters with thousands of nodes
    is the only way to handle the data.

    Arne

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  • From Scott Dorsey@3:770/3 to tnp@invalid.invalid on Fri Nov 17 12:39:52 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 17/11/2023 09:36, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
    There’s still nothing there that demonstrates Linux ever had a goal of
    portable system-level tools. I get that you think it should do, but
    wanting isn’t getting.

    Who will bell the cat?

    GNU always has as its primary goal that of providing portable system-level tools. For a long time, Linux was the kernel and GNU provided most of the actual environment in the distribution.

    However, at some point the momentum built up until "Linux" as a concept
    took off, and then everybody kind of forgot about GNU and the GNU environment and philosophy... then they forgot about the Unix environment and philosophy... now it is just a mess.
    --scott

    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Scott Dorsey on Fri Nov 17 13:00:28 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 17/11/2023 12:39, Scott Dorsey wrote:
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 17/11/2023 09:36, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
    There’s still nothing there that demonstrates Linux ever had a goal of >>> portable system-level tools. I get that you think it should do, but
    wanting isn’t getting.

    Who will bell the cat?

    GNU always has as its primary goal that of providing portable system-level tools. For a long time, Linux was the kernel and GNU provided most of the actual environment in the distribution.

    However, at some point the momentum built up until "Linux" as a concept
    took off, and then everybody kind of forgot about GNU and the GNU environment and philosophy... then they forgot about the Unix environment and philosophy...
    now it is just a mess.
    Engineers don't do philosophy usually (I am the exception) except '
    Perfection is the enemy of good enough'

    "An engineer can for five bob what any damned fool can do for a quid"

    --scott


    --
    There’s a mighty big difference between good, sound reasons and reasons
    that sound good.

    Burton Hillis (William Vaughn, American columnist)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to Scott Dorsey on Fri Nov 17 13:07:08 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 17 Nov 2023 12:39:52 -0000
    kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

    However, at some point the momentum built up until "Linux" as a concept
    took off, and then everybody kind of forgot about GNU and the GNU
    environment and philosophy... then they forgot about the Unix environment
    and philosophy... now it is just a mess.

    I suspect that Richard Stallman trying to get everyone to call it GNU-Linux didn't help.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to Scott Dorsey on Fri Nov 17 13:38:16 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 17 Nov 2023 12:39:52 -0000
    kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

    However, at some point the momentum built up until "Linux" as a concept
    took off, and then everybody kind of forgot about GNU and the GNU
    environment and philosophy... then they forgot about the Unix environment
    and philosophy... now it is just a mess.

    Indeed from "The cathedral and the bazaar" to the cathedral and the bizarre.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Fri Nov 17 14:26:52 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 17/11/2023 13:07, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On 17 Nov 2023 12:39:52 -0000
    kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

    However, at some point the momentum built up until "Linux" as a concept
    took off, and then everybody kind of forgot about GNU and the GNU
    environment and philosophy... then they forgot about the Unix environment
    and philosophy... now it is just a mess.

    I suspect that Richard Stallman trying to get everyone to call it GNU-Linux didn't help.


    A philosophical statement

    There is reality. This is what physicists and engineers deal with.

    Then there is how reality is described, what people *think* it is, what
    people think it *ought* to be, and how people *think* it can be changed.

    This is the world of the Left wing armchair intellectual and the
    ArtStudent™.

    It can for all practical purposes be safely ignored. It is in the end
    mere 'Bandar Log-ic', the inane chatterings of the Monkey People...

    "We all say it, so it must be true".


    --
    I would rather have questions that cannot be answered...
    ...than to have answers that cannot be questioned

    Richard Feynman

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  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Fri Nov 17 15:58:18 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On Fri, 17 Nov 2023 14:26:53 +0000
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    A philosophical statement

    There is reality. This is what physicists and engineers deal with.

    Engineers deal with models that they hope correspond to reality but don't always (cf. Tacoma Narrows bridge). Physicists attempt to build models that correspond to reality but don't always (cf. contradictions between
    general relativity and quantum theory). Then there are chaotic systems and emergent phenomena which so far have proven extremely resistant to
    modelling.

    Nobody can prove that reality exists (cf. solipsism etc) but it is
    the most useful assumption we can make. Even with that assumption nobody can prove that reality is logically consistent - it might all be the whim of
    God you can't prove that it isn't - but it is the most useful assumption we
    can make and it hasn't (yet) been disproved.

    The core unspoken (usually) theorems of physics are that reality
    exists and that it is logically consistent. If you can prove either of them
    I expect you're due a Nobel and an FRS at least.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Fri Nov 17 18:34:08 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 17/11/2023 15:58, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Fri, 17 Nov 2023 14:26:53 +0000
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    A philosophical statement

    There is reality. This is what physicists and engineers deal with.

    Engineers deal with models that they hope correspond to reality but don't always

    No. Ultimately they deal with the reality of a bridge that collapsed

    The models are always understood to be ad hoc, pro tem and only a guide.

    Only climate scientists believe their models ARE reality.

    (cf. Tacoma Narrows bridge). Physicists attempt to build models
    that correspond to reality but don't always (cf. contradictions between general relativity and quantum theory). Then there are chaotic systems and emergent phenomena which so far have proven extremely resistant to
    modelling.

    Exactly, which is why engineers don't build machines that go anywhere
    near chaotic behaviour

    Or if they do,m they test it in a wind tunnel, not on a computer.


    Nobody can prove that reality exists (cf. solipsism etc) but it is
    the most useful assumption we can make.

    Exactly,. We assume it exists and deal with its immutable aspects.

    Even with that assumption nobody can
    prove that reality is logically consistent - it might all be the whim of
    God you can't prove that it isn't - but it is the most useful assumption we can make and it hasn't (yet) been disproved.

    It cant be disproved - it is a metaphysical assumption.

    The core unspoken (usually) theorems of physics are that reality
    exists and that it is logically consistent. If you can prove either of them
    I expect you're due a Nobel and an FRS at least.

    Quoting that Wanker Dawkins, 'Science works, bitches'
    So does engineering.
    Socialism does not.
    Neither does praying to sky fairies, chanting 'from the river to the
    sea' or sitting in your mums basement saying 'the world ought to be different'...
    Of course it ought, you wanker. It just isn't. That's why we call it
    'reality'.



    --
    Climate is what you expect but weather is what you get.
    Mark Twain

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Richard Kettlewell@3:770/3 to Scott Dorsey on Fri Nov 17 18:43:42 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) writes:
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 17/11/2023 09:36, Richard Kettlewell wrote:

    There’s still nothing there that demonstrates Linux ever had a goal
    of portable system-level tools. I get that you think it should do,
    but wanting isn’t getting.

    Who will bell the cat?

    GNU always has as its primary goal that of providing portable
    system-level tools.

    That is ahistorical. The primary goal has always been production of a
    complete free operating system, not just component parts that could run elsewhere. See either the GNU manifesto or indeed the current project standards, which still categorise Linux as secondary to the GNU kernel.

    Portability of some components (e.g. language implementations) has
    obvious advantages for that goal, at least until it’s been realized, but that’s a means to an end, and it’s nowhere stated as a primary goal.

    For a long time, Linux was the kernel and GNU provided most of the
    actual environment in the distribution.

    However, at some point the momentum built up until "Linux" as a
    concept took off, and then everybody kind of forgot about GNU and the
    GNU environment and philosophy... then they forgot about the Unix
    environment and philosophy... now it is just a mess.

    Linux took off because it was a usable free platform that was easy to
    download and run, and easy to contribute to. At the point it got going
    the GNU kernel wasn’t ready (still isn’t) and BSD was mired in
    lawsuits. Change either of those and history would have been quite
    different.

    --
    https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Scott Dorsey@3:770/3 to steveo@eircom.net on Fri Nov 17 21:06:50 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    In article <20231117130709.1798abc63c60b0f3291598eb@eircom.net>,
    Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
    On 17 Nov 2023 12:39:52 -0000
    kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

    However, at some point the momentum built up until "Linux" as a concept
    took off, and then everybody kind of forgot about GNU and the GNU
    environment and philosophy... then they forgot about the Unix environment
    and philosophy... now it is just a mess.

    I suspect that Richard Stallman trying to get everyone to call it
    GNU-Linux didn't help.

    No. In general, I think Stallman has done more harm than good to the
    free software movement in recent years.
    --scott

    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From =?UTF-8?Q?Arne_Vajh=C3=B8j?=@3:770/3 to Scott Dorsey on Fri Nov 17 19:56:56 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 11/17/2023 4:06 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
    In article <20231117130709.1798abc63c60b0f3291598eb@eircom.net>,
    Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
    On 17 Nov 2023 12:39:52 -0000
    kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
    However, at some point the momentum built up until "Linux" as a concept
    took off, and then everybody kind of forgot about GNU and the GNU
    environment and philosophy... then they forgot about the Unix environment >>> and philosophy... now it is just a mess.

    I suspect that Richard Stallman trying to get everyone to call it
    GNU-Linux didn't help.

    No. In general, I think Stallman has done more harm than good to the
    free software movement in recent years.

    Because in recent years it has not been about software.

    When RMS talk about software then some adore him and some hate him.

    But when he talks about anything else then everybody hates him.

    Arne

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From bill@3:770/3 to All on Fri Nov 17 20:12:20 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 11/17/2023 7:56 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
    On 11/17/2023 4:06 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
    In article <20231117130709.1798abc63c60b0f3291598eb@eircom.net>,
    Ahem A Rivet's Shot  <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
    On 17 Nov 2023 12:39:52 -0000
    kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
    However, at some point the momentum built up until "Linux" as a concept >>>> took off, and then everybody kind of forgot about GNU and the GNU
    environment and philosophy... then they forgot about the Unix
    environment
    and philosophy... now it is just a mess.

        I suspect that Richard Stallman trying to get everyone to call it >>> GNU-Linux didn't help.

    No.  In general, I think Stallman has done more harm than good to the
    free software movement in recent years.

    Because in recent years it has not been about software.

    When RMS talk about software then some adore him and some hate him.

    But when he talks about anything else then everybody hates him.


    Stallman was never worth a crap on software.
    We had Open Source and Free Software long before he came along
    to try and screw it up.

    bill

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  • From 56d.1152@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Sat Nov 18 01:16:40 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 11/16/23 10:46 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On 16 Nov 2023 13:36:17 -0000
    kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

    The IBM systems are I/O machines. The CPU is just sitting there telling
    the I/O controllers what to do and most of the real work is being done by
    other hardware outside the CPU. So you can have incredibly high
    workloads and huge transation rates with relatively slow CPUs.

    Yes you can but ...

    This was a huge win as late as a decade ago, but these days it's not that
    much of a win unless you have a write-mostly database that is inefficient
    to distribute. Because CPU has become so damn cheap that we just throw
    CPU at problems now.

    Back in 1990 I was involved in designing a system that could not
    have been run on the mainframes of the day because they had insufficient IO bandwidth but a distributed solution spread across twenty high end 88K machines did.

    Tell that to Amazon, Google etc. look into the architecture of
    Amazon Dynamo and marvel at the way it scales and handles machine
    failures and network outages. Mainframes are great up to a point, right
    up until you can't get one big enough and then you *need* a scalable
    solution. kubernetes is an easy way to get one.

    This is true, but Amazon and Google -are- still slow and insecure in ways
    that I don't think is apparently obvious. Instead of keeping one thing
    secure, you have thousands upon thousands to keep secure.

    Yes but instead of trying to secure each one individually you write rules which are used by the deployment engine (kubernetes usually).

    A single instance implemented on virtual hardware is certainly
    slower than the same thing implemented on bare metal - the win comes from having a scalable design. The artful part is making the design scalable and not putting bottlenecks in it. If the single instance is 1/10th the speed
    of bare metal but you can run a thousand instances in parallel then you
    have 100 times the speed of bare metal.

    SAAS is huge in the large corporate world, it all runs on
    virtual machines and docker containers orchestrated by kubernetes. It's
    only insecure if you don't know how to secure it, the most security
    sensitive run it all in their own datacentres on hypervisors that they
    control. The rest trust the contractual obligations of the companies that >>> run the data centres (Microsoft, Google and Amazon mostly).

    This is where the scary part is, yes.

    Yes it is - that's why my data lives at home. I don't need scalable solutions thankfully. Those who do and care a lot run their own.



    Ok, there ARE apps like Google that NEED what are
    essentially "infinitely scalable" solutions.

    However the poster WAS right about something ... the
    more you go that way the more vague and unmanagible
    the 'security' issues become. Docker/Kubernetes are
    NOT as secure as their authors like to claim and
    indeed any super-"spread out" solution will also
    suffer issues. It's a TRADE-OFF.

    Big banks/biz, govt/mil, need to err on the side of
    security. Google can err on the side of high-volume.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to 56d.1152@ztq9.net on Sat Nov 18 08:01:52 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On Sat, 18 Nov 2023 01:16:41 -0500
    "56d.1152" <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:

    Big banks/biz, govt/mil, need to err on the side of
    security. Google can err on the side of high-volume.

    Read this https://cloud.google.com/customers/revolut/

    Revolut is one of the biggest banks.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Scott Dorsey on Sat Nov 18 11:12:46 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 17/11/2023 21:06, Scott Dorsey wrote:
    In article <20231117130709.1798abc63c60b0f3291598eb@eircom.net>,
    Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
    On 17 Nov 2023 12:39:52 -0000
    kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

    However, at some point the momentum built up until "Linux" as a concept
    took off, and then everybody kind of forgot about GNU and the GNU
    environment and philosophy... then they forgot about the Unix environment >>> and philosophy... now it is just a mess.

    I suspect that Richard Stallman trying to get everyone to call it
    GNU-Linux didn't help.

    No. In general, I think Stallman has done more harm than good to the
    free software movement in recent years.
    --scott

    Politics and ideology are always the enemies of sound engineering.

    --
    It is the folly of too many to mistake the echo of a London coffee-house
    for the voice of the kingdom.

    Jonathan Swift

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From 56d.1152@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Sat Nov 18 23:15:10 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 11/18/23 3:01 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Sat, 18 Nov 2023 01:16:41 -0500
    "56d.1152" <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:

    Big banks/biz, govt/mil, need to err on the side of
    security. Google can err on the side of high-volume.

    Read this https://cloud.google.com/customers/revolut/

    Revolut is one of the biggest banks.


    But for HOW LONG if it uses insecure methods ? :-)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to 56d.1152@ztq9.net on Sun Nov 19 06:58:20 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On Sat, 18 Nov 2023 23:15:11 -0500
    "56d.1152" <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:

    On 11/18/23 3:01 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Sat, 18 Nov 2023 01:16:41 -0500
    "56d.1152" <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:

    Big banks/biz, govt/mil, need to err on the side of
    security. Google can err on the side of high-volume.

    Read this https://cloud.google.com/customers/revolut/

    Revolut is one of the biggest banks.


    But for HOW LONG if it uses insecure methods ? :-)

    They've been operating since 2015, had a data breach in 2022
    resulting from a phishing attack which netted some personal data (about
    5000 people) and a bug in their US payment system that let them (not their customers) lose $20m. Note carefully that neither of these was an infrastructure attack.

    Pretty small potatoes compared to say the Capital One data breach
    in 2019 that let 100 million credit card application details out or the JP Morgan Chase data breach of 83 million accounts or the Experian breach of
    24 million customer's personal details or the ransomware attack on the US branch of ICBC (that's the world's biggest bank) or Flagstar bank which has
    had three data breaches in the last two years or the IBM Moveit data breach earlier this year that leaked medical records of 4.1 million people in Colerado. It's even small compared to Bank of Ireland's 22 data breaches
    over six months leaking personal data of over 50,000 customers.

    I'd say the evidence is that their security stacks up pretty well.

    As anyone involved professionally in data security (hint that
    includes me) knows the vast majority of compromises these days result from social engineering (various forms of phishing) not technical issues.

    Peruse this https://tech.co/news/data-breaches-updated-list if you don't believe me.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From =?UTF-8?Q?Arne_Vajh=C3=B8j?=@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Sun Nov 19 16:33:38 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 11/18/2023 3:01 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Sat, 18 Nov 2023 01:16:41 -0500
    "56d.1152" <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:
    Big banks/biz, govt/mil, need to err on the side of
    security. Google can err on the side of high-volume.

    Read this https://cloud.google.com/customers/revolut/

    Revolut is one of the biggest banks.

    Revolut is not a big bank. It is a pretty small bank.

    But there are big banks using public cloud.

    Deutsche Bank - Google cloud
    HSBC - Amazon cloud
    JP Morgan - multi cloud
    Bank of America - IBM cloud
    Goldman Sachs - Amazon cloud
    UBS - Microsoft cloud

    The US military also use public cloud. After spending
    years on court room battles I believe DoD split the
    contract between Amazon, Microsoft, Google and Oracle.

    Arne

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  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to arne@vajhoej.dk on Sun Nov 19 22:47:12 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On Sun, 19 Nov 2023 16:33:38 -0500
    Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:

    On 11/18/2023 3:01 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Sat, 18 Nov 2023 01:16:41 -0500
    "56d.1152" <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:
    Big banks/biz, govt/mil, need to err on the side of
    security. Google can err on the side of high-volume.

    Read this https://cloud.google.com/customers/revolut/

    Revolut is one of the biggest banks.

    Revolut is not a big bank. It is a pretty small bank.

    Depends how you measure - by valuation ($33bn) it's bigger than Deutsche Bank ($25bn).

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Tom Blenko@3:770/3 to Rivet's Shot on Sun Nov 19 15:24:56 2023
    In article <20231119224712.286e6fc31b6aabe1dc9b2d36@eircom.net>, Ahem A
    Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

    On Sun, 19 Nov 2023 16:33:38 -0500
    Arne Vajhj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:

    On 11/18/2023 3:01 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Sat, 18 Nov 2023 01:16:41 -0500
    "56d.1152" <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:
    Big banks/biz, govt/mil, need to err on the side of
    security. Google can err on the side of high-volume.

    Read this https://cloud.google.com/customers/revolut/

    Revolut is one of the biggest banks.

    Revolut is not a big bank. It is a pretty small bank.

    Depends how you measure - by valuation ($33bn) it's bigger than
    Deutsche Bank ($25bn).

    That number for Revolut is two years out of date. It was good for one
    day only and was strongly dependent on valuation by one investor who
    has had a highly volatile investment record (SoftBank). Other
    organizations who have to publicly value their stakes in Revolut put it
    around half that number as of 2023 (and I'm not sure those valuations
    are very safe).

    On a total-assets basis, I believe Wikipedia shows it as not among the
    100 largest banks in the world. You can check them for their source on
    that.

    Tom

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From =?UTF-8?Q?Arne_Vajh=C3=B8j?=@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Sun Nov 19 18:53:26 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 11/19/2023 5:47 PM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Sun, 19 Nov 2023 16:33:38 -0500
    Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
    On 11/18/2023 3:01 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Sat, 18 Nov 2023 01:16:41 -0500
    "56d.1152" <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:
    Big banks/biz, govt/mil, need to err on the side of
    security. Google can err on the side of high-volume.

    Read this https://cloud.google.com/customers/revolut/

    Revolut is one of the biggest banks.

    Revolut is not a big bank. It is a pretty small bank.

    Depends how you measure - by valuation ($33bn) it's bigger than Deutsche Bank ($25bn).

    Usually the size of banks are measured by asset value.

    The two numbers you provide are not fully comparable.

    Revolut is a private company and the number was a valuation
    done in March 2021 when getting new investors on board (a time
    where fintech companies were valued very high).

    The DB number is the actual market cap today.

    Arne

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to All on Mon Nov 20 00:09:14 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 19/11/2023 21:33, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
    On 11/18/2023 3:01 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Sat, 18 Nov 2023 01:16:41 -0500
    "56d.1152" <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:
        Big banks/biz, govt/mil, need to err on the side of
        security. Google can err on the side of high-volume.

        Read this https://cloud.google.com/customers/revolut/

        Revolut is one of the biggest banks.

    Revolut is not a big bank. It is a pretty small bank.

    But there are big banks using public cloud.

    I find that frightening, irresponsible and yet strangely believable.

    Big banks should be broken up. They have way too much power and take
    fuck all responsibility.


    Deutsche Bank - Google cloud
    HSBC - Amazon cloud
    JP Morgan - multi cloud
    Bank of America - IBM cloud
    Goldman Sachs - Amazon cloud
    UBS - Microsoft cloud

    The US military also use public cloud. After spending
    years on court room battles I believe DoD split the
    contract between Amazon, Microsoft, Google and Oracle.

    Arne


    --
    Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have
    guns, why should we let them have ideas?

    Josef Stalin

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From 56d.1153@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Wed Nov 22 00:39:10 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 11/19/23 1:58 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Sat, 18 Nov 2023 23:15:11 -0500
    "56d.1152" <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:

    On 11/18/23 3:01 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Sat, 18 Nov 2023 01:16:41 -0500
    "56d.1152" <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:

    Big banks/biz, govt/mil, need to err on the side of
    security. Google can err on the side of high-volume.

    Read this https://cloud.google.com/customers/revolut/

    Revolut is one of the biggest banks.


    But for HOW LONG if it uses insecure methods ? :-)

    They've been operating since 2015,

    Many of the others since the 1800s :-)


    had a data breach in 2022
    resulting from a phishing attack which netted some personal data (about
    5000 people) and a bug in their US payment system that let them (not their customers) lose $20m. Note carefully that neither of these was an infrastructure attack.


    But a very relevant attack nevertheless. Doesn't matter
    where you cast blame - damage done.


    Pretty small potatoes compared to say the Capital One data breach
    in 2019 that let 100 million credit card application details out or the JP Morgan Chase data breach of 83 million accounts or the Experian breach of
    24 million customer's personal details or the ransomware attack on the US branch of ICBC (that's the world's biggest bank) or Flagstar bank which has had three data breaches in the last two years or the IBM Moveit data breach earlier this year that leaked medical records of 4.1 million people in Colerado. It's even small compared to Bank of Ireland's 22 data breaches
    over six months leaking personal data of over 50,000 customers.

    The way modern biz/banking likes to do things, NONE of
    your stuff is very "secure". Basically I don't *do*
    online banking - and WILL change banks if that becomes
    their only option.

    And yes, banks WILL find a way to blame YOU for any
    losses ..... can you afford to go up against their
    lawyers ???

    Should you put up with this shit ???

    Hey, it's your MONEY/SAVINGS/FUTURE/SECURITY ... do
    not go gently ........

    I'd say the evidence is that their security stacks up pretty well.

    But only for a few years.

    Wait until NK focuses ........

    As anyone involved professionally in data security (hint that
    includes me) knows the vast majority of compromises these days result from social engineering (various forms of phishing) not technical issues.

    I agree. But MANY problems result from system-level
    weaknesses too. You see it in the news almost weekly
    now ... giant tech-biz, everything spilled.

    Humans ARE the weakest link - fer sure - but not the
    ONLY weakness. Alas those "other" weaknesses will be
    able to do FAR more damage FAR more quickly.

    Peruse this https://tech.co/news/data-breaches-updated-list if you don't believe me.

    Stats are fine, but look at the next/next-next lines
    on the vulnerabilities list ....

    I'm old-school, not a fool, I know how badly systems-level
    issues can damage.

    Things like Docker/Kubernetes are great - but DO remember
    their vulnerabilities too. It's all well documented.

    NK knows this stuff too.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From 56d.1153@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Wed Nov 22 00:45:44 2023
    XPost: comp.os.vms

    On 11/19/23 7:09 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 19/11/2023 21:33, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
    On 11/18/2023 3:01 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Sat, 18 Nov 2023 01:16:41 -0500
    "56d.1152" <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:
        Big banks/biz, govt/mil, need to err on the side of
        security. Google can err on the side of high-volume.

        Read this https://cloud.google.com/customers/revolut/

        Revolut is one of the biggest banks.

    Revolut is not a big bank. It is a pretty small bank.

    But there are big banks using public cloud.

    I find that frightening, irresponsible and yet strangely believable.

    Big banks should be broken up. They have way too much power and take
    fuck all responsibility.


    Ummmm ... not necessarily "broken up" - "Big Banks"
    have a very useful place/function. They are fiscal
    "glue".

    However they SHOULD be liable for the results of
    using CRAP methods/security. They CAN do better,
    but will need to be FORCED into it.


    Deutsche Bank - Google cloud
    HSBC - Amazon cloud
    JP Morgan - multi cloud
    Bank of America - IBM cloud
    Goldman Sachs - Amazon cloud
    UBS - Microsoft cloud

    The US military also use public cloud. After spending
    years on court room battles I believe DoD split the
    contract between Amazon, Microsoft, Google and Oracle.

    Anyone who uses "public cloud" and even IMAGINES that
    it's good/secure should be BADLY, BROADLY, sued.

    No BS ... lay into them !

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)