• Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple desktops/workspaces?

    From Another Dave@3:770/3 to All on Fri Oct 27 12:28:54 2023
    I need this feature despite being told, high-handedly, by the Raspberry
    Pi lot that I don't and that they don't support it. Most search results
    are out of date as usual.

    Manjaro (KDE) does it but it doesn't work in other ways. Cinnamon does
    it but seems a bit OTT.

    Another Dave
    --
    Change nospam to techie

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Another Dave on Fri Oct 27 19:05:26 2023
    On 27/10/2023 12:28, Another Dave wrote:
    I need this feature despite being told, high-handedly, by the Raspberry
    Pi lot that I don't and that they don't support it. Most search results
    are out of date as usual.

    Manjaro (KDE) does it but it doesn't work in other ways. Cinnamon does
    it but seems a bit OTT.

    Install MATE and possibly Ubuntu instead of Debian

    Another Dave

    --
    “It is hard to imagine a more stupid decision or more dangerous way of
    making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people
    who pay no price for being wrong.”

    Thomas Sowell

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Another Dave@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Sat Oct 28 11:36:50 2023
    On 27/10/2023 7:05 pm, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    Install MATE and possibly Ubuntu instead of Debian


    I've already installed Cinnamon and will stick with it. There are no performance issues with it, those only start with the ginormous loads
    all modern browsers place on systems. Only chromium seems to use
    hardware acceleration on youtube.

    Another Dave
    --
    Change nospam to techie

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Another Dave@3:770/3 to Theo on Sat Oct 28 11:44:10 2023
    On 28/10/2023 10:14 am, Theo wrote:
    Another Dave <dmarsden@nospam.com> wrote:
    I need this feature despite being told, high-handedly, by the Raspberry
    Pi lot that I don't and that they don't support it. Most search results
    are out of date as usual.

    Manjaro (KDE) does it but it doesn't work in other ways. Cinnamon does
    it but seems a bit OTT.

    Raspberry Pi OS is an OS distribution.
    That distribution provides a desktop environment (DE).
    By default RPiOS uses a DE called PIXEL based on customised LXDE.

    If the default DE doesn't provide what you want, install another one.
    If KDE is the thing you want, install that. Or find another DE.
    Don't throw out the OS just because you want to change the window
    dressing.

    https://raspberrytips.com/upgrade-raspbian-lite-to-desktop/
    which starts with RPiOS Lite, but you can also do it from full RPiOS by skipping to step 4.

    It is also possible to skip using a DE and do it 'by hand' by installing
    a window manager directly (like i3 or FVWM), which gets you basic window manipulation without also giving you a dock, system tray, file manager,
    etc. I know FVWM supports multiple workspaces.

    Theo
    Yes yes, I know all that. I just wanted to use a desk top optimised for
    the pi. ALL desktops have the ability to use multiple workspaces except
    Pixel. It was removed from Pixel specifically because somebody at
    Raspberry Pi couldn't be bothered to fix a bug in it.

    Another Dave
    --
    Change nospam to techie

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From 56d.1152@3:770/3 to Another Dave on Fri Nov 3 23:59:52 2023
    On 10/28/23 6:44 AM, Another Dave wrote:
    On 28/10/2023 10:14 am, Theo wrote:
    Another Dave <dmarsden@nospam.com> wrote:
    I need this feature despite being told, high-handedly, by the Raspberry
    Pi lot that I don't and that they don't support it. Most search results
    are out of date as usual.

    Manjaro (KDE) does it but it doesn't work in other ways. Cinnamon does
    it but seems a bit OTT.

    Raspberry Pi OS is an OS distribution.
    That distribution provides a desktop environment (DE).
    By default RPiOS uses a DE called PIXEL based on customised LXDE.

    If the default DE doesn't provide what you want, install another one.
    If KDE is the thing you want, install that.  Or find another DE.
    Don't throw out the OS just because you want to change the window
    dressing.

    https://raspberrytips.com/upgrade-raspbian-lite-to-desktop/
    which starts with RPiOS Lite, but you can also do it from full RPiOS by
    skipping to step 4.

    It is also possible to skip using a DE and do it 'by hand' by installing
    a window manager directly (like i3 or FVWM), which gets you basic window
    manipulation without also giving you a dock, system tray, file manager,
    etc.  I know FVWM supports multiple workspaces.

    Theo
    Yes yes, I know all that. I just wanted to use a desk top optimised for
    the pi. ALL desktops have the ability to use multiple workspaces except Pixel. It was removed from Pixel specifically because somebody at
    Raspberry Pi couldn't be bothered to fix a bug in it.


    I've installed Raspian/Bookworm on FOUR boards in the
    past couple weeks. Yep, it does all the usual. ONE
    very annoying aspect with Bookworm though is the
    pointless demise of dhcpcd.conf and WPA_Supplicant.conf
    in favor of "network manager'. If you use the 'lite'
    version, no GUI, this becomes a PROBLEM if you want
    to do static IPs. For the GUI versions just install
    the Gnome network manager GUI thingie and use that
    to set everything.

    DID discover network manager stores
    the configs in /etc/NetworkManager/session-something
    in readable/tweakable files. For a 'lite' OS though
    you should use nmcli to 'add' an interface (pain
    enough) and then use nano to fine-tweak the config
    file. Fortunately I had some made WITH the GUI as
    patterns for the non-GUI units.

    Remember /etc/networking ? THAT worked JUST FINE and
    you could tweak to your heart's content. NO REASON for
    Deb to deviate and make it all infinitely more difficult.
    Who sells something far closer to Old Deb ??? I'll
    check MX, maybe Devuian, but it has to run on a Pi.
    (mx will, but unsure about the networking without a GUI)

    DID run into one very WEIRD issue with Bookworm -
    can't get /home/pi/.config/lxsession/LXDE-pi/autostart
    to work properly on a Pi4. Works fine on a Pi3 though.
    Tried one made ON a Pi3, moved to a Pi4, and another
    completely installed on a Pi4. Alas I have something
    that badly NEEDS the local autoexec so it'll have
    a real 'screen' to put graphic output on (a python pgm).

    Even putting the attempted startup into .profile or
    .bashrc ain't doing it. Tried a bash script that starts
    the py script - again no-go. I'll try adding a sleep
    in there somewhere tomorrow ....... as said, just a
    very very WEIRD diff between Pi models. Worst case, I'll
    try last-years Raspbian.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Bob Latham@3:770/3 to 56d.1152@ztq9.net on Sat Nov 4 11:04:42 2023
    In article <NbednWsKQtdaXNj4nZ2dnZfqnPqdnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
    56d.1152 <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:

    I've installed Raspian/Bookworm on FOUR boards in the
    past couple weeks. Yep, it does all the usual. ONE
    very annoying aspect with Bookworm though is the
    pointless demise of dhcpcd.conf and WPA_Supplicant.conf
    in favor of "network manager'. If you use the 'lite'
    version, no GUI, this becomes a PROBLEM if you want
    to do static IPs. For the GUI versions just install
    the Gnome network manager GUI thingie and use that
    to set everything.

    I didn't know there was a problem until I read this but you're right
    there is. I have managed a static IP on an ethernet connection by
    creating a file
    /etc/network/interfaces.d/eth0 which contains:

    allow-hotplug eth0
    iface eth0 inet static
    address 192.168.1.3
    network 192.168.1.0
    netmask 255.255.255.0
    gateway 192.168.1.1

    I *presume* it would be similar for a Wi-Fi connection but that the
    file name would not be eth0 but whatever the Wi-fi interface is
    called. I don't know what that is at the moment.

    So I tried to get a Wi-Fi dongle to work using the usual the old
    method, copying a file wpa_supplicant.conf to the boot partition of
    the sd card before it is transferred to the pi. This worked great
    with bullseye but fails with bookworm.

    I've done some googling and found something I thought was the answer,
    I had to create a file at /etc/wpa_supplicant.conf and then run it
    with: wpa_supplicant -iwlan0 -c/etc/wpa_supplicant.conf -d

    With only two steps I half expected it to work but of course it gave
    me miles of text and failed to work.

    Has anyone discovered how to make a Wi-Fi dongle work with bookworm
    lite? If so, could you enlighten me please.

    Thanks.

    Bob.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Michael Schwingen@3:770/3 to Bob Latham on Sat Nov 4 19:02:36 2023
    On 2023-11-04, Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:
    I didn't know there was a problem until I read this but you're right
    there is. I have managed a static IP on an ethernet connection by
    creating a file
    /etc/network/interfaces.d/eth0 which contains:

    That should[1] still work (maybe after installing the ifupdown package). Install "resolvconf" if you want to specify DNS in /etc/network/interfaces, too.

    Has anyone discovered how to make a Wi-Fi dongle work with bookworm
    lite? If so, could you enlighten me please.

    Have a look at

    https://wiki.debian.org/WiFi/HowToUse

    under "manual", "Using ifupdown and wpasupplicant" - you can specify
    everything you usually need in /etc/network/interfaces, no need to manually create separate config files.

    cu
    Michael

    [1] I regularly run embedded debian systems, but I have not cross-checked
    this on a raspberry.
    --
    Some people have no respect of age unless it is bottled.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From 56d.1152@3:770/3 to Bob Latham on Sun Nov 5 01:07:32 2023
    On 11/4/23 7:04 AM, Bob Latham wrote:
    In article <NbednWsKQtdaXNj4nZ2dnZfqnPqdnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
    56d.1152 <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:

    I've installed Raspian/Bookworm on FOUR boards in the
    past couple weeks. Yep, it does all the usual. ONE
    very annoying aspect with Bookworm though is the
    pointless demise of dhcpcd.conf and WPA_Supplicant.conf
    in favor of "network manager'. If you use the 'lite'
    version, no GUI, this becomes a PROBLEM if you want
    to do static IPs. For the GUI versions just install
    the Gnome network manager GUI thingie and use that
    to set everything.

    I didn't know there was a problem until I read this but you're right
    there is. I have managed a static IP on an ethernet connection by
    creating a file
    /etc/network/interfaces.d/eth0 which contains:

    allow-hotplug eth0
    iface eth0 inet static
    address 192.168.1.3
    network 192.168.1.0
    netmask 255.255.255.0
    gateway 192.168.1.1

    I *presume* it would be similar for a Wi-Fi connection but that the
    file name would not be eth0 but whatever the Wi-fi interface is
    called. I don't know what that is at the moment.

    So I tried to get a Wi-Fi dongle to work using the usual the old
    method, copying a file wpa_supplicant.conf to the boot partition of
    the sd card before it is transferred to the pi. This worked great
    with bullseye but fails with bookworm.

    I've done some googling and found something I thought was the answer,
    I had to create a file at /etc/wpa_supplicant.conf and then run it
    with: wpa_supplicant -iwlan0 -c/etc/wpa_supplicant.conf -d

    With only two steps I half expected it to work but of course it gave
    me miles of text and failed to work.

    Has anyone discovered how to make a Wi-Fi dongle work with bookworm
    lite? If so, could you enlighten me please.


    Nothing beats a static IP. DHCP can, and eventually WILL,
    move stuff around - and then you get weird annoying failures.

    Modern Deb-derivatives have completely abandoned /etc/networking.
    I guess it worked too well, was too-well documented. You actually
    have do do some DAMAGE to force /etc/networking to take control.

    Raspbian used /etc/dhcpcd.conf for quite awhile. Bookworm
    broke that - again for NO sane reason.

    With Bookworm it's all hidden away in /etc/NetworkManager/
    system-connections. Alas if you NEVER had a GUI then it's
    all DHCP from SOME yet-unknown source. Fortunately I'd
    made some with and without GUI ... and the ones WITH GUI
    provided the necessary pattern. You need to use "nmcli add con"
    to create the skeleton of a new networking device ... can be
    the wired or wireless. Then you EDIT it and insert the
    needed names and numbers. This works.

    And it's also VERY VERY unnecessarily complex/obscure.

    Raspbian IS the best-tuned to PIs. However these unneeded
    and vexing changes are getting to be TOO MUCH. There are
    now a number of Lini that can run pretty well on PIs -
    including MX and Arch-derivs. I'm really gonna look into
    the Arch branch ... not that I love Arch, but there are
    just SOME things that should be convenient, comprehensible
    and consistent for people who do PRACTICAL stuff.

    I'll provide a skeleton for a /system-connections template
    on Monday ... there ARE a very few example on the web, but
    VERY few and hard to find. They look nothing like anything
    from before.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From 56d.1152@3:770/3 to Michael Schwingen on Sun Nov 5 01:17:16 2023
    On 11/4/23 3:02 PM, Michael Schwingen wrote:
    On 2023-11-04, Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:
    I didn't know there was a problem until I read this but you're right
    there is. I have managed a static IP on an ethernet connection by
    creating a file
    /etc/network/interfaces.d/eth0 which contains:

    That should[1] still work (maybe after installing the ifupdown package). Install "resolvconf" if you want to specify DNS in /etc/network/interfaces, too.

    And how much other stuff ???

    /etc/networking worked JUST FINE and is hugely documented

    There was NO reason to change.

    So, basically, you now have to BREAK Deb to get it to work
    like it used to. Cannonical led the way toward STUPID changes
    and now Deb seems to have even exceeded THEM.

    I'm gonna look into Arch ......

    Has anyone discovered how to make a Wi-Fi dongle work with bookworm
    lite? If so, could you enlighten me please.

    Have a look at

    https://wiki.debian.org/WiFi/HowToUse

    under "manual", "Using ifupdown and wpasupplicant" - you can specify everything you usually need in /etc/network/interfaces, no need to manually create separate config files.

    Um ... TRY that. Neither /etc/network or WPA_supplicant
    or dhcpcd.conf are used any more by any sort of default/
    fallback.

    For a GUI-less Bookworm you have to fool with the very
    horrible 'nmcli' and then manually EDIT the net def
    templates it creates way down in /etc/NetworkManager/
    system-<something>

    Bookworm is just HORRIBLE in this respect on a Pi.

    Gonna check into Arch - seriously check into it. IF IT
    WORKS *DON'T BREAK IT*

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Jim Jackson@3:770/3 to 56d.1152@ztq9.net on Sun Nov 5 10:40:28 2023
    On 2023-11-05, 56d.1152 <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:

    Nothing beats a static IP. DHCP can, and eventually WILL,
    move stuff around - and then you get weird annoying failures.

    Actually does not have to be true.

    It is possible to run a dhcp server that hands out a fixed IP address
    for a specific MAC. Many home routers allow this feature too. I run my
    own DHCP server exactly to have full control over this and many other
    features.

    Not defending Debian here at all :-) Though I do use debain derived OSes
    - but much reconfigured.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Bob Latham@3:770/3 to Michael Schwingen on Sun Nov 5 11:07:18 2023
    In article <slrnukd5ac.c0ep.news-1513678000@a-tuin.ms.intern>,
    Michael Schwingen <news-1513678000@discworld.dascon.de> wrote:
    On 2023-11-04, Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:
    I didn't know there was a problem until I read this but you're right
    there is. I have managed a static IP on an ethernet connection by
    creating a file
    /etc/network/interfaces.d/eth0 which contains:

    That should[1] still work (maybe after installing the ifupdown
    package). Install "resolvconf" if you want to specify DNS in /etc/network/interfaces, too.

    Has anyone discovered how to make a Wi-Fi dongle work with
    bookworm lite? If so, could you enlighten me please.

    Have a look at

    https://wiki.debian.org/WiFi/HowToUse

    under "manual", "Using ifupdown and wpasupplicant" - you can
    specify everything you usually need in /etc/network/interfaces, no
    need to manually create separate config files.

    I'm reading that now and trying to understand it. Not heard that
    penny drop yet. :-)


    Thanks for that.

    Bob.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Bob Latham@3:770/3 to 56d.1152@ztq9.net on Sun Nov 5 11:05:32 2023
    In article <OBGdncacO82Jvtr4nZ2dnZfqn_udnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
    56d.1152 <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:

    I'll provide a skeleton for a /system-connections template
    on Monday ... there ARE a very few example on the web, but
    VERY few and hard to find. They look nothing like anything
    from before.

    If I understand you correctly, I'm looking forward to that.

    Thanks.

    Bob.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to Jim Jackson on Sun Nov 5 12:12:30 2023
    On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 10:40:28 -0000 (UTC)
    Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> wrote:

    It is possible to run a dhcp server that hands out a fixed IP address
    for a specific MAC.

    Which can be a pain when you upgrade a box or want to hand a fixed
    IP to something like a phone that randomly changes MAC address to prevent
    IPv6 auto allocation being used for tracking.

    Many DHCP servers can also allocate a static IP based on hostname
    which is really handy especially with DNS/DHCP integrated as in dnsmasq.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Theo@3:770/3 to 56d.1152@ztq9.net on Sun Nov 5 14:50:44 2023
    56d.1152 <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:
    On 11/4/23 3:02 PM, Michael Schwingen wrote:
    On 2023-11-04, Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:
    I didn't know there was a problem until I read this but you're right
    there is. I have managed a static IP on an ethernet connection by
    creating a file
    /etc/network/interfaces.d/eth0 which contains:

    That should[1] still work (maybe after installing the ifupdown package). Install "resolvconf" if you want to specify DNS in /etc/network/interfaces, too.

    And how much other stuff ???

    /etc/networking worked JUST FINE and is hugely documented

    There was NO reason to change.
    So, basically, you now have to BREAK Deb to get it to work
    like it used to. Cannonical led the way toward STUPID changes
    and now Deb seems to have even exceeded THEM.

    Supposedly it was because ifupdown depends on dhclient, which is now abandonware. Hence they needed to replace that part of the stack, either
    with NetworkManager or systemd-networkd:

    https://www.reddit.com/r/debian/comments/rhd1e4/future_of_network_configuration_in_debian/

    I'm gonna look into Arch ......

    Seems like Arch uses the same tools, with systemd-networkd by default: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Network_configuration

    Theo

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From mm0fmf@3:770/3 to Bob Latham on Sun Nov 5 15:09:02 2023
    On 05/11/2023 11:05, Bob Latham wrote:
    In article <OBGdncacO82Jvtr4nZ2dnZfqn_udnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
    56d.1152 <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:

    I'll provide a skeleton for a /system-connections template
    on Monday ... there ARE a very few example on the web, but
    VERY few and hard to find. They look nothing like anything
    from before.

    If I understand you correctly, I'm looking forward to that.

    Thanks.

    Bob.


    For my Pi Zero W running bookworm.

    I did an in-place upgrade from bullseye to bookworm and then a later
    upgrade broke the networking. See the thread "Arrgh!! systemd strikes
    again!"

    Using a separate Linux system to access the Pi's SDcard I added the
    following files

    /etc/network/interfaces.d/wlan0
    /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf


    In my case the content is

    /etc/network/interfaces.d/wlan0
    allow-hotplug wlan0
    iface wlan0 inet dhcp
    wpa-conf /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf


    /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf ctrl_interface=DIR=/var/run/wpa_supplicant GROUP=netdev
    update_config=1
    country=GB

    network={
    ssid="MyHomeWifiName"
    psk="XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX"
    }


    My router is setup to allocate a set of fixed IP addrs based on MAC
    address for some devices that use DHCP. The rest have fixed IP addrs anyway.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Bob Latham@3:770/3 to none@invalid.com on Sun Nov 5 16:31:38 2023
    In article <ui8b6h$1k37$1@dont-email.me>,
    mm0fmf <none@invalid.com> wrote:

    Using a separate Linux system to access the Pi's SDcard I added the
    following files

    /etc/network/interfaces.d/wlan0
    /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf


    In my case the content is

    /etc/network/interfaces.d/wlan0
    allow-hotplug wlan0
    iface wlan0 inet dhcp
    wpa-conf /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf


    /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf ctrl_interface=DIR=/var/run/wpa_supplicant GROUP=netdev
    update_config=1
    country=GB

    network={
    ssid="MyHomeWifiName"
    psk="XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX"
    }

    Fantastic !! It works !! Well done - thank you.

    On a raspberry pi 2 with no built in wi-fi I tried a couple of
    different dongles but they both worked

    My router is setup to allocate a set of fixed IP addrs based on MAC
    address for some devices that use DHCP. The rest have fixed IP
    addrs anyway.

    Yes, same here.

    Thanks again.

    Bob.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From mm0fmf@3:770/3 to Bob Latham on Sun Nov 5 19:25:56 2023
    On 05/11/2023 16:31, Bob Latham wrote:
    In article <ui8b6h$1k37$1@dont-email.me>,
    mm0fmf <none@invalid.com> wrote:

    Using a separate Linux system to access the Pi's SDcard I added the
    following files

    /etc/network/interfaces.d/wlan0
    /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf


    In my case the content is

    /etc/network/interfaces.d/wlan0
    allow-hotplug wlan0
    iface wlan0 inet dhcp
    wpa-conf /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf


    /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf
    ctrl_interface=DIR=/var/run/wpa_supplicant GROUP=netdev
    update_config=1
    country=GB

    network={
    ssid="MyHomeWifiName"
    psk="XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX"
    }

    Fantastic !! It works !! Well done - thank you.

    On a raspberry pi 2 with no built in wi-fi I tried a couple of
    different dongles but they both worked

    My router is setup to allocate a set of fixed IP addrs based on MAC
    address for some devices that use DHCP. The rest have fixed IP
    addrs anyway.

    Yes, same here.

    Thanks again.

    Bob.



    Glad to be of help. I found stuff about this online so it's not my own
    hard work here just the distillation of someone else's efforts.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From 56d.1152@3:770/3 to Theo on Sun Nov 5 23:15:08 2023
    On 11/5/23 9:50 AM, Theo wrote:
    56d.1152 <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:
    On 11/4/23 3:02 PM, Michael Schwingen wrote:
    On 2023-11-04, Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:
    I didn't know there was a problem until I read this but you're right
    there is. I have managed a static IP on an ethernet connection by
    creating a file
    /etc/network/interfaces.d/eth0 which contains:

    That should[1] still work (maybe after installing the ifupdown package). >>> Install "resolvconf" if you want to specify DNS in /etc/network/interfaces, >>> too.

    And how much other stuff ???

    /etc/networking worked JUST FINE and is hugely documented

    There was NO reason to change.
    So, basically, you now have to BREAK Deb to get it to work
    like it used to. Cannonical led the way toward STUPID changes
    and now Deb seems to have even exceeded THEM.

    Supposedly it was because ifupdown depends on dhclient, which is now abandonware. Hence they needed to replace that part of the stack, either
    with NetworkManager or systemd-networkd:


    And NOBODY else in the LiniVerse could maintain/tweak/replace
    dhclient ??? This exposes a PROBLEM.


    https://www.reddit.com/r/debian/comments/rhd1e4/future_of_network_configuration_in_debian/

    I'm gonna look into Arch ......

    Seems like Arch uses the same tools, with systemd-networkd by default: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Network_configuration


    May have to just stick with BullsEye for quite awhile then ...

    Depending, there ARE ways to manage any security risks even
    after updates get thin.

    I've HAD it with stupid pointless changes in What Works.
    Sounds like, horrors, MICROSOFT !

    As is now, EVERY update might now totally BREAK your
    hard-won applications. This is NOT acceptable.

    ANYway, I'll post templates for nm entries tomorrow,
    one for wired, another for wireless. Get 'em going
    with an easy nmcli and then tweak to taste with nano.

    Hmm ... I can already visualize an EASY TO USE
    replacement for common nmcli uses on a Pi ...
    I'll do it in Python (no, not bash with it's
    obscure syntax I have to look up EVERY time) and
    post it somewhere findable. Fill-in-the-blanks is
    the simplest approach along with a 'ladder' structure
    so you can key 'next' or 'go back'. Oh sure, you
    can install Gnome or something, use the GUI nm app
    (gotta run it as root) and then try to UN-install all
    that junk ... until you need to repeat .....

    There ARE Pi-runnable versions of FreeBSD and
    even Plan-9 these days. I'm betting they're
    less volatile. I've run OpenSuse on a Pi
    (though it's 'heavy') but I'll have to check
    if RHEL and/or Fedora keep breaking What Works
    first.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From 56d.1152@3:770/3 to All on Sun Nov 5 23:17:46 2023
    On 11/5/23 2:25 PM, mm0fmf wrote:
    On 05/11/2023 16:31, Bob Latham wrote:
    In article <ui8b6h$1k37$1@dont-email.me>,
        mm0fmf <none@invalid.com> wrote:

    Using a separate Linux system to access the Pi's SDcard I added the
    following files

    /etc/network/interfaces.d/wlan0
    /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf


    In my case the content is

    /etc/network/interfaces.d/wlan0
    allow-hotplug wlan0
    iface wlan0 inet dhcp
        wpa-conf /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf


    /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf
    ctrl_interface=DIR=/var/run/wpa_supplicant GROUP=netdev
    update_config=1
    country=GB

    network={
              ssid="MyHomeWifiName"
              psk="XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX"
    }

    Fantastic !! It works !! Well done - thank you.

    On a raspberry pi 2 with no built in wi-fi I tried a couple of
    different dongles but they both worked

    My router is setup to allocate a set of fixed IP addrs based on MAC
    address for some devices that use DHCP. The rest have fixed IP
    addrs anyway.

    Yes, same here.

    Thanks again.

    Bob.



    Glad to be of help. I found stuff about this online so it's not my own
    hard work here just the distillation of someone else's efforts.


    Did that work on BOOKWORM ???

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to 56d.1152@ztq9.net on Mon Nov 6 07:01:04 2023
    On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 23:15:08 -0500
    "56d.1152" <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:

    On 11/5/23 9:50 AM, Theo wrote:

    Supposedly it was because ifupdown depends on dhclient, which is now abandonware. Hence they needed to replace that part of the stack, either with NetworkManager or systemd-networkd:


    And NOBODY else in the LiniVerse could maintain/tweak/replace
    dhclient ??? This exposes a PROBLEM.

    Strange that - dhclient is still part of the base system in FreeBSD.

    I've HAD it with stupid pointless changes in What Works.
    Sounds like, horrors, MICROSOFT !

    Look into the BSDs - they're not Linux and they don't follow
    fashion.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Anssi Saari@3:770/3 to 56d.1152@ztq9.net on Mon Nov 6 11:53:42 2023
    "56d.1152" <56d.1152@ztq9.net> writes:

    And how much other stuff ???

    /etc/networking worked JUST FINE and is hugely documented

    There was NO reason to change.


    So, basically, you now have to BREAK Deb to get it to work
    like it used to. Cannonical led the way toward STUPID changes
    and now Deb seems to have even exceeded THEM.

    If by Deb you mean Debian, it still defaults, in version 12, to using /etc/network/interfaces and ifupdown for network management.

    The Raspberry Pi foundation makes changes to Debian and calls it the
    Raspberry Pi OS. Or Raspbian, earlier.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Chris Elvidge@3:770/3 to Bob Latham on Mon Nov 6 12:22:54 2023
    On 06/11/2023 09:17, Bob Latham wrote:
    In article <uia9di$dimp$1@dont-email.me>,
    mm0fmf <none@invalid.com> wrote:
    On 06/11/2023 08:47, mm0fmf wrote:
    On 06/11/2023 08:24, Bob Latham wrote:

    However, one word of caution. There is a strong tendency for the
    OS to overwrite the file /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf
    with zeros. I've seen this with bullseye too. I suspect it is
    some weird security measure to try to stop tinkering.

    The solution with bullseye is to copy that file not to
    /etc/wpa_supplicant but whilst the SD card is still in the PC
    copy it to the boot partition. The Pi then copies this into the
    correct place at boot up and marks it as valid in some way to
    prevent overwrite. I've not tried this yet on bookworm, that's
    up next...

    Bob.


    Not happening here but I do note that nmcli says wlan0 is
    unmanaged.

    Oh dear, replying to myself....

    As it's unmanaged by NetworkManagaer, then it's being left alone.
    That's just fine for what this PiZeroW is used for. I have another
    PiZeroW with the same release of software that I'll play with and
    will add wlan0 to NetworkManager's grasp so I can see what it does
    (if anything).

    Further testing just, has revealed that bookworm doesn't seem to copy
    the wpa_supplicant.conf file from boot partition at boot up like
    bullseye did. The only way I've found to get that file there is via
    ethernet and in my case samba.

    Upon reboot, sometimes the wpa_supplicant.conf files gets overwritten
    with zeros and sometimes not. I've no idea why.

    Bob.


    Just 'cos of this thread, I've been frigging around with bookworm lite
    on a PiB+. After getting the firmware for my dongle - took a long time
    to compile - TP-Link AC600 wireless Realtek RTL8811AU [Archer T2U Nano],
    I just did:
    nmcli d wifi connect "myssid" password "mypassword" ifname wlan0

    It survives a reboot. My wpa_supplicant.conf file stays unchanged (and unneeded). The bit about it not being copied from /boot/ is documented
    here: https://www.raspberrypi.com/documentation/computers/configuration.html#connect-to-a-wireless-network

    Quote: "Previous versions of Raspberry Pi OS made use of a
    wpa_supplicant.conf file which could be placed into the boot folder to configure wireless network settings. This is no longer possible from
    Raspberry Pi OS Bookworm onwards."

    I found Jeff Geerling's blog handy: https://www.jeffgeerling.com/blog/2023/nmcli-wifi-on-raspberry-pi-os-12-bookworm

    What exactly is the problem being fixed here?

    BTW Bookworm is (subjectively) faster than Bullseye on a PiB+

    --
    Chris Elvidge, England
    I AM NOT A LEAN MEAN SPITTING MACHINE

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From mm0fmf@3:770/3 to Chris Elvidge on Mon Nov 6 13:06:02 2023
    On 06/11/2023 12:22, Chris Elvidge wrote:
    What exactly is the problem being fixed here?

    In my case I had working Buster and upgraded in situ to Bullseye then
    Bookworm on a headless PiZeroW. The legacy network setup was moved and
    the automatic power up connection to Wifi stayed active. Then a recent
    update to Bookworm changed NetworkManager and Wifi was broken. The fix
    is as described early.

    I've been playing with nmcli on a Pi with some USB Wifi dongles and have
    played with nmcli d wifi connect.... and yes, it works and survives
    reboots. My built wlan0 is currently unmanaged by NM.

    I'm thinking a clean install of Bookworm would have put wlan0 under NM
    control. But as it was using the old style setup it was left as is (and working). The later NM update didn't / couldn't cope with that style of
    setup, failed and broke the old style network setup. What I've done
    (which I found somewhere online) works and leaves wlan0 outside of NM
    control.

    I'm just considering whether to leave as it as it is working or to do a
    sudo nmcli dev set wlan0 managed yes, remove the files I added and let
    NM manage it from now on. Probably the best course of action in the long
    run as it's possible and probable a future NM update may break things
    again.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Bob Latham@3:770/3 to Chris Elvidge on Mon Nov 6 13:44:50 2023
    In article <uialr1$fcug$1@dont-email.me>,
    Chris Elvidge <chris@mshome.net> wrote:

    Just 'cos of this thread, I've been frigging around with bookworm
    lite on a PiB+. After getting the firmware for my dongle - took a
    long time to compile - TP-Link AC600 wireless Realtek RTL8811AU
    [Archer T2U Nano], I just did:

    nmcli d wifi connect "myssid" password "mypassword" ifname wlan0

    It survives a reboot. My wpa_supplicant.conf file stays unchanged
    (and unneeded).

    <stunned gulp>

    Are you saying that you get a wi-fi dongle to work with just one
    command?

    Wow, I'll try this out later.

    The bit about it not being copied from /boot/ is
    documented here: https://www.raspberrypi.com/documentation/computers/configuration.html#connect-to-a-wireless-network

    Quote: "Previous versions of Raspberry Pi OS made use of a wpa_supplicant.conf file which could be placed into the boot folder
    to configure wireless network settings. This is no longer possible
    from Raspberry Pi OS Bookworm onwards."

    Well at least my testing was correct then. :-)

    I found Jeff Geerling's blog handy: https://www.jeffgeerling.com/blog/2023/nmcli-wifi-on-raspberry-pi-os-12-bookworm

    I'll have a read of that, thanks.

    What exactly is the problem being fixed here?

    Recently I've been using secondhand pi3 devices because they have
    wi-fi built in and that just worked from raspi-config on bookworm.

    Then I saw this thread and thought I'd try a pi2 with a wi-fi dongle
    and I couldn't get it to work certainly not as I'd done on bullseye.

    Clever fold on here told me a way to get it going and that did work.

    Later I'll try your suggestion and see if that works for me. I just
    don't know how you find out this stuff. :-)

    Thanks for the suggestion.

    Bob.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Chris Elvidge@3:770/3 to All on Mon Nov 6 15:01:22 2023
    Another problem I found with RPiB+/Bookworm lite is the overscan
    settings. I have:

    # Disable compensation for displays with overscan
    disable_overscan=1
    overscan_left=50
    overscan_right=20
    overscan_top=25
    overscan_bottom=20

    which works until the (new) video driver takes over

    Solution: comment out the new driver viz:

    # Enable DRM VC4 V3D driver
    #dtoverlay=vc4-kms-v3d
    #max_framebuffers=2


    --
    Chris Elvidge, England
    COFFEE IS NOT FOR KIDS

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Chris Elvidge@3:770/3 to Bob Latham on Mon Nov 6 14:40:06 2023
    On 06/11/2023 13:44, Bob Latham wrote:
    In article <uialr1$fcug$1@dont-email.me>,
    Chris Elvidge <chris@mshome.net> wrote:

    Just 'cos of this thread, I've been frigging around with bookworm
    lite on a PiB+. After getting the firmware for my dongle - took a
    long time to compile - TP-Link AC600 wireless Realtek RTL8811AU
    [Archer T2U Nano], I just did:

    nmcli d wifi connect "myssid" password "mypassword" ifname wlan0

    It survives a reboot. My wpa_supplicant.conf file stays unchanged
    (and unneeded).

    <stunned gulp>

    Are you saying that you get a wi-fi dongle to work with just one
    command?

    Wow, I'll try this out later.

    Not exactly a single command <g> as I had to download and compile the
    drivers for the USB dongle. That took ages! But I got both 5GHz and 2.4
    GHz (80211ac). I'll try out a more simple dongle (80211n) later today.


    The bit about it not being copied from /boot/ is
    documented here:
    https://www.raspberrypi.com/documentation/computers/configuration.html#connect-to-a-wireless-network

    Quote: "Previous versions of Raspberry Pi OS made use of a
    wpa_supplicant.conf file which could be placed into the boot folder
    to configure wireless network settings. This is no longer possible
    from Raspberry Pi OS Bookworm onwards."

    Well at least my testing was correct then. :-)

    I found Jeff Geerling's blog handy:
    https://www.jeffgeerling.com/blog/2023/nmcli-wifi-on-raspberry-pi-os-12-bookworm

    I'll have a read of that, thanks.

    What exactly is the problem being fixed here?

    Recently I've been using secondhand pi3 devices because they have
    wi-fi built in and that just worked from raspi-config on bookworm.

    Then I saw this thread and thought I'd try a pi2 with a wi-fi dongle
    and I couldn't get it to work certainly not as I'd done on bullseye.

    Clever fold on here told me a way to get it going and that did work.

    Later I'll try your suggestion and see if that works for me. I just
    don't know how you find out this stuff. :-)

    Mainly, Jeff Geerling's blog (see above)


    Thanks for the suggestion.

    Bob.

    It seems (to me) that NetworkManager uses dhcpcd (not dhclient)
    internally, but I could be wrong. And wpa_supplicant seems to come into
    it somewhere, but doesn't use seem to use /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf
    'wpa_cli status'


    --
    Chris Elvidge, England
    COFFEE IS NOT FOR KIDS

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From mm0fmf@3:770/3 to Chris Elvidge on Mon Nov 6 15:19:26 2023
    On 06/11/2023 14:40, Chris Elvidge wrote:
    On 06/11/2023 13:44, Bob Latham wrote:
    In article <uialr1$fcug$1@dont-email.me>,
        Chris Elvidge <chris@mshome.net> wrote:

    Just 'cos of this thread, I've been frigging around with bookworm
    lite on a PiB+. After getting the firmware for my dongle - took a
    long time to compile - TP-Link AC600 wireless Realtek RTL8811AU
    [Archer T2U Nano], I just did:

    nmcli d wifi connect "myssid" password "mypassword" ifname wlan0

    It survives a reboot. My wpa_supplicant.conf file stays unchanged
    (and unneeded).

    <stunned gulp>

    Are you saying that you get a wi-fi dongle to work with just one
    command?

    Wow, I'll try this out later.

    Not exactly a single command <g> as I had to download and compile the
    drivers for the USB dongle. That took ages! But I got both 5GHz and 2.4
    GHz (80211ac). I'll try out a more simple dongle (80211n) later today.


    The bit about it not being copied from /boot/ is
    documented here:
    https://www.raspberrypi.com/documentation/computers/configuration.html#connect-to-a-wireless-network


    Quote: "Previous versions of Raspberry Pi OS made use of a
    wpa_supplicant.conf file which could be placed into the boot folder
    to configure wireless network settings. This is no longer possible
    from Raspberry Pi OS Bookworm onwards."

    Well at least my testing was correct then. :-)

    I found Jeff Geerling's blog handy:
    https://www.jeffgeerling.com/blog/2023/nmcli-wifi-on-raspberry-pi-os-12-bookworm


    I'll have a read of that, thanks.

    What exactly is the problem being fixed here?

    Recently I've been using secondhand pi3 devices because they have
    wi-fi built in and that just worked from raspi-config on bookworm.

    Then I saw this thread and thought I'd try a pi2 with a wi-fi dongle
    and I couldn't get it to work certainly not as I'd done on bullseye.

    Clever fold on here told me a way to get it going and that did work.

    Later I'll try your suggestion and see if that works for me. I just
    don't know how you find out this stuff. :-)

    Mainly, Jeff Geerling's blog (see above)


    Thanks for the suggestion.

    Bob.

    It seems (to me) that NetworkManager uses dhcpcd (not dhclient)
    internally, but I could be wrong. And wpa_supplicant seems to come into
    it somewhere, but doesn't use seem to use /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf
    'wpa_cli status'



    I switched from wlan0 unmanaged by NM to managed and working. It was
    reasonably straightforward.

    sudo nmtui rather than nmcli to setup the profile info and wifi
    password. I'm happy using nmcli but I thought I try the "GUI" version as
    many will be happier using that.

    At first I could not make NM manage wlan0. This was because in /etc/NetworkManager/NetworkManager.conf the ifupdown section was set to managed=false and so I changed that to managed-true.

    Reboot and wlan0 is controlled by NM and connects on power up.

    This was straightforward because I used a USB ethernet dongle to control
    the Pi rather than using the wlan0 device I was reconfiguring.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From druck@3:770/3 to All on Mon Nov 6 21:21:18 2023
    T24gMDQvMTEvMjAyMyAwMzo1OSwgNTZkLjExNTIgd3JvdGU6DQo+ICDCoCBESUQgcnVuIGlu dG8gb25lIHZlcnkgV0VJUkQgaXNzdWUgd2l0aCBCb29rd29ybSAtDQo+ICDCoCBjYW4ndCBn ZXQgL2hvbWUvcGkvLmNvbmZpZy9seHNlc3Npb24vTFhERS1waS9hdXRvc3RhcnQNCj4gIMKg IHRvIHdvcmsgcHJvcGVybHkgb24gYSBQaTQuIFdvcmtzIGZpbmUgb24gYSBQaTMgdGhvdWdo Lg0KDQpUaGUgUGkgNCBhbmQgbGF0ZXIgdXNlIFdheWxhbmQgKHBlcnBldHVhbGx5IHVuZmlu aXNoZWQgYW5kIHVuZml0IGZvciANCnB1cnBvc2Ugd2luZG93aW5nIHN5c3RlbSkgc28gTFhE RSBpc24ndCB1c2VkLiBUcnkgc3dpdGNoaW5nIGJhY2sgdG8gWDExIA0KYW5kIGFsbCB3aWxs IGJlIHdlbGwuDQoNCi0tLWRydWNrDQoNCg==

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From druck@3:770/3 to Chris Elvidge on Mon Nov 6 21:34:28 2023
    On 06/11/2023 15:01, Chris Elvidge wrote:
    Another problem I found with RPiB+/Bookworm lite is the overscan
    settings.
    [Snip]
    which works until the (new) video driver takes over

    Overscan is yet another thing the Wayland developers can't be bother supporting, so no longer work.

    Solution: comment out the new driver viz:

    # Enable DRM VC4 V3D driver
    #dtoverlay=vc4-kms-v3d
    #max_framebuffers=2

    There is no need to stop using the driver, just switch back to using X11.

    ---druck

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From 56d.1152@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Mon Nov 6 22:17:44 2023
    On 11/6/23 2:01 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 23:15:08 -0500
    "56d.1152" <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:

    On 11/5/23 9:50 AM, Theo wrote:

    Supposedly it was because ifupdown depends on dhclient, which is now
    abandonware. Hence they needed to replace that part of the stack, either >>> with NetworkManager or systemd-networkd:


    And NOBODY else in the LiniVerse could maintain/tweak/replace
    dhclient ??? This exposes a PROBLEM.

    Strange that - dhclient is still part of the base system in FreeBSD.

    I've HAD it with stupid pointless changes in What Works.
    Sounds like, horrors, MICROSOFT !

    Look into the BSDs - they're not Linux and they don't follow
    fashion.


    I have looked into the BSDs - including the ARM version
    of FreeBSD.

    ONE odd issue, but kinda important to me & org, is that
    they do NOT seem to do SMB2 or SMB3 ... just the insecure
    and long-defunct SMB1. It's far more a pain in the ass
    to create shares or use them in BSD (and no, FORGET NFS ...
    the Real World is 95% Winders with Linux/Unix as servers
    or 'smart devices'.

    In some ways the BSDs are "better", solid, well thought-out,
    NOT prone to stupid pointless changes in basic functions.
    In a few ways though they are WELL behind the curve.

    Maybe it's a 6/Half-Dozen thing ?

    As for Linux, I fear Canonical and its "philosophy" are
    gaining too much traction. I dumped the 'Buntu's a few
    years back because of that - but now even Mother Deb seems
    to to be 'contaminated'. There's a systemd rebellion
    faction ... maybe a "Pure Deb" rebellion faction is
    also needed ?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From 56d.1152@3:770/3 to Bob Latham on Mon Nov 6 21:59:34 2023
    On 11/6/23 3:24 AM, Bob Latham wrote:
    In article <FcGcnQ_s4rd39dX4nZ2dnZfqn_idnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
    56d.1152 <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:
    On 11/5/23 2:25 PM, mm0fmf wrote:
    On 05/11/2023 16:31, Bob Latham wrote:
    In article <ui8b6h$1k37$1@dont-email.me>,
    mm0fmf <none@invalid.com> wrote:

    I added the following files

    /etc/network/interfaces.d/wlan0
    /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf


    In my case the content is

    /etc/network/interfaces.d/wlan0
    allow-hotplug wlan0
    iface wlan0 inet dhcp
    wpa-conf /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf


    /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf
    ctrl_interface=DIR=/var/run/wpa_supplicant GROUP=netdev
    update_config=1
    country=GB

    network={
    ssid="MyHomeWifiName"
    psk="XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX"
    }

    Fantastic !! It works !! Well done - thank you.


    Did that work on BOOKWORM ???

    Yes it does!

    However, one word of caution. There is a strong tendency for the OS
    to overwrite the file /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf with
    zeros. I've seen this with bullseye too. I suspect it is some weird
    security measure to try to stop tinkering.

    The solution with bullseye is to copy that file not to
    /etc/wpa_supplicant but whilst the SD card is still in the PC copy it
    to the boot partition. The Pi then copies this into the correct place
    at boot up and marks it as valid in some way to prevent overwrite.
    I've not tried this yet on bookworm, that's up next...


    I'll do some experiments. Glad to see SOMETHING other
    than the weird /etc/NetworkManager stuff might work !

    Another 'cure' for the overwrite issue would be to write
    an on-boot script that physically copies a GOOD copy to
    WPA_Supplicant fairly early on. Not as elegant, but then
    you also don't have to tamper with /boot

    Such a pity though that after ALL these years we STILL
    have to find ways to fix/break the normal OS just to
    do simple - but very important - stuff like this.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From 56d.1152@3:770/3 to scott@alfter.diespammersdie.us on Mon Nov 6 23:58:10 2023
    On 11/6/23 1:03 PM, scott@alfter.diespammersdie.us wrote:
    56d.1152 <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:
    For a GUI-less Bookworm you have to fool with the very
    horrible 'nmcli' and then manually EDIT the net def
    templates it creates way down in /etc/NetworkManager/
    system-<something>

    nmtui is much nicer to work with. On everything I run that uses NetworkManager, I make sure nmtui is installed.


    I'm gonna write a py app for it ... already know
    how it'll work. Just the usual basics, easy to
    go back and forth in a particular networking def.

    DID post templates for what's in
    /etc/NetworkManager/system-connections
    and how to use nmcli to at least create
    (/register?) the useless base templates.
    Then you copy/paste my examples into them
    and make yer specific tweaks.

    Liked the old way, indeed even OLDER way,
    a lot better. Far less mystery and BS.

    It's all easier if you are making a GUI-based
    system ... but without GUI tools (and you have
    to deliberately install one in Bookworm and
    run it as root) it's suddenly a real pain to
    do static IPs and such.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From 56d.1152@3:770/3 to druck on Tue Nov 7 00:06:14 2023
    On 11/6/23 4:34 PM, druck wrote:
    On 06/11/2023 15:01, Chris Elvidge wrote:
    Another problem I found with RPiB+/Bookworm lite is the overscan
    settings.
    [Snip]
    which works until the (new) video driver takes over

    Overscan is yet another thing the Wayland developers can't be bother supporting, so no longer work.

    Solution: comment out the new driver viz:

    # Enable DRM VC4 V3D driver
    #dtoverlay=vc4-kms-v3d
    #max_framebuffers=2

    There is no need to stop using the driver, just switch back to using X11.


    Yep ! :-)

    I've been hearing hype about Wayland for many
    years now. IMHO it's still not up to snuff and
    more stupid than X11 and may always be thus.
    And, as mentioned here, it KILLS a lot of useful
    stuff that's WELL documented for X11.

    No thanks.

    Sometimes "improvements" just AREN'T. Don't break
    what ain't broke.

    I do practical stuff with Pi's and do NOT wanna
    rewrite big apps, or half the OS, just to make
    things work straight-up.

    Hate to rec more distros, but perhaps the Pi people
    need to consider their target audience and make their
    OWN, straight-up, version of Deb. Go back to Buster
    or even Stretch and proceed from there.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to 56d.1152@ztq9.net on Tue Nov 7 07:15:30 2023
    On Mon, 6 Nov 2023 22:17:44 -0500
    "56d.1152" <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:

    On 11/6/23 2:01 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 23:15:08 -0500
    "56d.1152" <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:

    On 11/5/23 9:50 AM, Theo wrote:

    Supposedly it was because ifupdown depends on dhclient, which is now
    abandonware. Hence they needed to replace that part of the stack,
    either with NetworkManager or systemd-networkd:


    And NOBODY else in the LiniVerse could maintain/tweak/replace
    dhclient ??? This exposes a PROBLEM.

    Strange that - dhclient is still part of the base system in
    FreeBSD.

    I've HAD it with stupid pointless changes in What Works.
    Sounds like, horrors, MICROSOFT !

    Look into the BSDs - they're not Linux and they don't follow
    fashion.


    I have looked into the BSDs - including the ARM version
    of FreeBSD.

    ONE odd issue, but kinda important to me & org, is that
    they do NOT seem to do SMB2 or SMB3 ... just the insecure
    and long-defunct SMB1. It's far more a pain in the ass
    to create shares or use them in BSD (and no, FORGET NFS ...
    the Real World is 95% Winders with Linux/Unix as servers
    or 'smart devices'.

    Not sure how you got that impression samba will export both smb2
    and smb3 shares on FreeBSD, It's the same samba as used in Linux.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Mike Scott@3:770/3 to All on Tue Nov 7 09:34:34 2023
    On 07/11/2023 03:17, 56d.1152 wrote:
    .....

      I have looked into the BSDs - including the ARM version
      of FreeBSD.

    I run freebsd on a pi4 as our main server. A little slow, but works well enough. Used to run samba (on an i386), but got rid of windows in favour
    of linux desktops quite a few years ago and never looked back.


      ONE odd issue, but kinda important to me & org, is that
      they do NOT seem to do SMB2 or SMB3 ... just the insecure
      and long-defunct SMB1. It's far more a pain in the ass

    A quick look at freebsd ports shows something called samba 4.13. Are you
    sure that's only smb1?

      to create shares or use them in BSD (and no, FORGET NFS ...
      the Real World is 95% Winders with Linux/Unix as servers
      or 'smart devices'.

      In some ways the BSDs are "better", solid, well thought-out,
      NOT prone to stupid pointless changes in basic functions.
      In a few ways though they are WELL behind the curve.

    Maybe those go together - if you're at the forefront of development,
    you're necessarily in unstable times. If you prefer stability, let
    someone else cut themselves on the bleeding edge and you be content to
    follow tried and tested paths.

    Horses for courses.

    --
    Mike Scott
    Harlow, England

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Chris Elvidge@3:770/3 to druck on Tue Nov 7 10:38:12 2023
    On 06/11/2023 21:34, druck wrote:
    On 06/11/2023 15:01, Chris Elvidge wrote:
    Another problem I found with RPiB+/Bookworm lite is the overscan
    settings.
    [Snip]
    which works until the (new) video driver takes over

    Overscan is yet another thing the Wayland developers can't be bother supporting, so no longer work.

    Solution: comment out the new driver viz:

    # Enable DRM VC4 V3D driver
    #dtoverlay=vc4-kms-v3d
    #max_framebuffers=2

    There is no need to stop using the driver, just switch back to using X11.

    ---druck


    AFAIK Raspberry Pi OS Bookworm Lite doesn't use either X11 or Wayland


    --
    Chris Elvidge, England
    RUDOLPH'S RED NOSE IS NOT ALCOHOL-RELATED

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Bob Latham@3:770/3 to Chris Elvidge on Tue Nov 7 12:52:00 2023
    In article <uiats7$gig9$1@dont-email.me>,
    Chris Elvidge <chris@mshome.net> wrote:
    On 06/11/2023 13:44, Bob Latham wrote:
    In article <uialr1$fcug$1@dont-email.me>,
    Chris Elvidge <chris@mshome.net> wrote:

    nmcli d wifi connect "myssid" password "mypassword" ifname wlan0

    That command worked for me on a pi2/bookworm with a Wi-Fi dongle and
    so I try to understand it and add it to my notes. Most of it is
    obvious but what is the "d" for?

    The jeffgeerling blog which I believe is the source of this, uses the
    "d" option but fails to explain it.

    The redhat documentation here.. https://access.redhat.com/documentation/en-us/red_hat_enterprise_linux/7/html/networking_guide/sec-configuring_ip_networking_with_nmcli

    never uses a "d" option but does use a "c" option which isn't
    explained either. It also refers a lot to parameters like -t.

    Now an embarrassing question in Linux is "t" the same as "-t"?

    On other OS in the past I've seen where these would be flags with
    opposite setting ie. t is a flag on and -t is the same flag off. I
    don't think that's the case here but could well be wrong.

    My best guess is that "d" is short for 'device', if so what is "c"
    short for?



    Thanks.

    Bob.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From =?UTF-8?Q?Bj=C3=B6rn_Lundin?=@3:770/3 to Bob Latham on Tue Nov 7 17:09:52 2023
    On 2023-11-07 13:52, Bob Latham wrote:
    Now an embarrassing question in Linux is "t" the same as "-t"?

    The sad answer is that it depends

    When a program is started and parses the commandline,
    depending on language/library used you get different ways
    but most separate options from parameters where options are prefixed
    with something ('-', '--', '/')

    eg, using some kind of getopt lib,
    you could expect options to start with '-'

    and parameters not being prefixed.


    Then option is 1 char only, like -t or -d /dev/sda

    If it is a reasonable new (gnu) getopt, it will do long options as well

    --time or --device=/dev/sda

    However if no library is used and the program just reads the command
    line, then is is whatever the programmer felt like at the time

    So on the system I work on we have a cmdline-parsing lib that insists on

    prefix is 1 char
    '-' for unix and '/' for Win + VMS (still in the lib)
    if first part of option is 'no' then it negates the meaning

    meaning we have commands like

    swap_table -name=tablename -norebuildindex
    or
    swap_table -name=tablename -rebuildindex

    where -name is longer than 1 char and rebuildindex is a boolean value. -norebuildindex does not exist in code - it is a negated -rebuildindex



    --
    /Björn

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From 56d.1152@3:770/3 to Mike Scott on Wed Nov 8 00:28:40 2023
    On 11/7/23 4:34 AM, Mike Scott wrote:
    On 07/11/2023 03:17, 56d.1152 wrote:
    .....

       I have looked into the BSDs - including the ARM version
       of FreeBSD.

    I run freebsd on a pi4 as our main server. A little slow, but works well enough. Used to run samba (on an i386), but got rid of windows in favour
    of linux desktops quite a few years ago and never looked back.

    Kinda dinky "main server" ... I use a fast i9/gen-12 :-)

    But what works for you, works. Needs/goals vary.

    Alas I CANNOT get rid of the damned Winders crap. The new
    boss is Winders OBSESSED "Everybody uses that and nothing
    else" is the official opinion. Straight out of a Dilbert
    strip - the oblivious lead.

    But I 'm retiring soon - the New Guy can deal :-) It
    won't be cheap or nice or even 'solid' ........ but it
    sure won't be MY FAULT :-)

       ONE odd issue, but kinda important to me & org, is that
       they do NOT seem to do SMB2 or SMB3 ... just the insecure
       and long-defunct SMB1. It's far more a pain in the ass

    A quick look at freebsd ports shows something called samba 4.13. Are you
    sure that's only smb1?

    Free MIGHT do at least SMB2 now ... but I'm not sure
    how much WORK/complexity is required. Open/Dragonfly
    and some others DID seem stuck at SMB-1 when I evaled
    them about a year ago. Hate it or hate it more, Winders
    IS what most of yer Linux/BSD/Unix servers/devices are
    gonna be dealing with.

       to create shares or use them in BSD (and no, FORGET NFS ...
       the Real World is 95% Winders with Linux/Unix as servers
       or 'smart devices'.

       In some ways the BSDs are "better", solid, well thought-out,
       NOT prone to stupid pointless changes in basic functions.
       In a few ways though they are WELL behind the curve.

    Maybe those go together - if you're at the forefront of development,
    you're necessarily in unstable times. If you prefer stability, let
    someone else cut themselves on the bleeding edge and you be content to
    follow tried and tested paths.

    That's been my working philosophy ... BUT I need safe/stable
    solutions to deal with today's real world issues. If I can
    at least get that - no spiffy bells and whistles needed -
    then everything's cool. Let the bleeding-edge fanatics
    work out their bugs.


    Horses for courses.


    The way the world is going we'll ALL be relying
    on horses and donkeys again .... :-)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From 56d.1152@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Wed Nov 8 00:00:20 2023
    On 11/7/23 2:15 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Mon, 6 Nov 2023 22:17:44 -0500
    "56d.1152" <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:

    On 11/6/23 2:01 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 23:15:08 -0500
    "56d.1152" <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:

    On 11/5/23 9:50 AM, Theo wrote:

    Supposedly it was because ifupdown depends on dhclient, which is now >>>>> abandonware. Hence they needed to replace that part of the stack,
    either with NetworkManager or systemd-networkd:


    And NOBODY else in the LiniVerse could maintain/tweak/replace
    dhclient ??? This exposes a PROBLEM.

    Strange that - dhclient is still part of the base system in
    FreeBSD.

    I've HAD it with stupid pointless changes in What Works.
    Sounds like, horrors, MICROSOFT !

    Look into the BSDs - they're not Linux and they don't follow
    fashion.


    I have looked into the BSDs - including the ARM version
    of FreeBSD.

    ONE odd issue, but kinda important to me & org, is that
    they do NOT seem to do SMB2 or SMB3 ... just the insecure
    and long-defunct SMB1. It's far more a pain in the ass
    to create shares or use them in BSD (and no, FORGET NFS ...
    the Real World is 95% Winders with Linux/Unix as servers
    or 'smart devices'.

    Not sure how you got that impression samba will export both smb2
    and smb3 shares on FreeBSD, It's the same samba as used in Linux.


    I was also exploring some of the other BSDs ... Open, Dragonfly, etc.
    MAY be that Free CAN do at least SMB2, though SMB3 IS still better.

    Anyway, let's get REAL. Yer Linux/BSD devices WILL mostly be
    communicating with WINDERS shit almost exclusively. All the
    little NK/PRC hacks go after EVERY possible Winders weakness.

    Oh, reviewing recent firwall logs, there were a huge number
    of attacks directed at INDUSTRIAL CONTROLLERS about a week ago.
    Siemens especially. All kinds of ways to attack those - indeed
    the CIA did exactly that to Iran about a decade ago, ruining a
    lot of their uranium centrifuges.

    Note also, the bulk of the Australian net WENT DOWN HARD
    yesterday - right before the Oz PM is set to meet with Xi.
    No commerce, even affected trains and airlines. Don't care
    WHAT they officially blame it on - I'm sure Xi was sending
    a message ...... maybe as much as a billion-dollar message.
    His agents are deeply embedded, everywhere. Guess what
    happens in the US/EU when the Taiwan invasion starts ? :-)
    'Cloud' biz sounds SO good - until there's no 'cloud'.
    Got a wad of CASH ? Better have ....

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From 56d.1152@3:770/3 to Chris Elvidge on Wed Nov 8 00:43:46 2023
    On 11/7/23 5:38 AM, Chris Elvidge wrote:
    On 06/11/2023 21:34, druck wrote:
    On 06/11/2023 15:01, Chris Elvidge wrote:
    Another problem I found with RPiB+/Bookworm lite is the overscan
    settings.
    [Snip]
    which works until the (new) video driver takes over

    Overscan is yet another thing the Wayland developers can't be bother
    supporting, so no longer work.

    Solution: comment out the new driver viz:

    # Enable DRM VC4 V3D driver
    #dtoverlay=vc4-kms-v3d
    #max_framebuffers=2

    There is no need to stop using the driver, just switch back to using X11.

    ---druck


    AFAIK Raspberry Pi OS Bookworm Lite doesn't use either X11 or Wayland

    "Lite" - no, definitely not.

    However setting things like a static IP on 'lite', no
    gui tools, IS a royal pain in the ass. I provided some
    networkmanager templates and instructions in this group
    for making all that much faster and less painful.

    However the next step, "Desktop", DOES have the goodies,
    though you have to manually install AND run as root
    (AND there's LOT of "junk" co-installed)

    You can use "raspi-config" to set X11 or Wayland.

    Didn't solve MY issue - which was HARDWARE SPECIFIC -
    ie something worked perfectly on a Pi3, but not a
    Pi4 - but I found a work-around (eventually).

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From 56d.1152@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Wed Nov 8 00:34:54 2023
    On 11/5/23 7:12 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 10:40:28 -0000 (UTC)
    Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> wrote:

    It is possible to run a dhcp server that hands out a fixed IP address
    for a specific MAC.

    Which can be a pain when you upgrade a box or want to hand a fixed
    IP to something like a phone that randomly changes MAC address to prevent IPv6 auto allocation being used for tracking.

    Quite true. The "easy" fix, if you have a semi-decent router, is
    to set a "static" dhcp thing - ie a particular IP reserved for
    a given MAC address.

    But it's "off-box" ... "ON box" is better and easier to
    cope with down the line.

    Many DHCP servers can also allocate a static IP based on hostname
    which is really handy especially with DNS/DHCP integrated as in dnsmasq.


    I have one that looks at the MAC address ... and will reserve
    a particular IP for that MAC. But, as said above ...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to All on Wed Nov 8 06:51:10 2023
    On 08/11/2023 05:28, 56d.1152 wrote:
    The way the world is going we'll ALL be relying
      on horses and donkeys again ....   🙂

    Well that's an apt description of most politician...The problem is how
    to take back control from them. So that I can do what's best for me, not
    what some left wing academic sitting in an ivory tower thinks is best
    for me.

    --
    “Some people like to travel by train because it combines the slowness of
    a car with the cramped public exposure of 
an airplane.”

    Dennis Miller

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to 56d.1152@ztq9.net on Wed Nov 8 07:24:38 2023
    On Wed, 8 Nov 2023 00:28:41 -0500
    "56d.1152" <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:

    The way the world is going we'll ALL be relying
    on horses and donkeys again .... :-)

    Then there will have to be far fewer of us.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to 56d.1152@ztq9.net on Wed Nov 8 07:23:00 2023
    On Wed, 8 Nov 2023 00:00:20 -0500
    "56d.1152" <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:

    Anyway, let's get REAL. Yer Linux/BSD devices WILL mostly be
    communicating with WINDERS shit almost exclusively.

    None of mine are. There are no windows machines on my LAN.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From mm0fmf@3:770/3 to All on Wed Nov 8 12:50:36 2023
    On 08/11/2023 05:43, 56d.1152 wrote:
    However setting things like a static IP on 'lite', no
      gui tools,

    Rasbian lite installed here. nmtui is a text mode graphical interface
    for network configuration that is present. Looks like and works like raspi-config.

    Don't say there's no gui for network control when there obviously is.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Mike Scott@3:770/3 to All on Wed Nov 8 12:33:46 2023
    On 08/11/2023 05:28, 56d.1152 wrote:
    On 11/7/23 4:34 AM, Mike Scott wrote:
    On 07/11/2023 03:17, 56d.1152 wrote:
    .....

       I have looked into the BSDs - including the ARM version
       of FreeBSD.

    I run freebsd on a pi4 as our main server. A little slow, but works
    well enough. Used to run samba (on an i386), but got rid of windows in
    favour of linux desktops quite a few years ago and never looked back.

      Kinda dinky "main server" ... I use a fast i9/gen-12  :-)

    And what's the power (watts :-}) difference I wonder?

    Incidentally, freebsd is pretty reliable - I've had it run for 9 months
    solid or more in the past; currently at 3. I've no feeling for how
    reliable linux is for that sort of duration. I'd not expect windows to
    run that long; IMBW.

    (I once had a vax/vms system still going after a year without reboot. It
    was only stopped because of a company Christmas shutdown. I still miss
    vms even with its vagaries :-) )


    --
    Mike Scott
    Harlow, England

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Mike Scott on Wed Nov 8 13:34:48 2023
    On 08/11/2023 12:33, Mike Scott wrote:
    On 08/11/2023 05:28, 56d.1152 wrote:
    On 11/7/23 4:34 AM, Mike Scott wrote:
    On 07/11/2023 03:17, 56d.1152 wrote:
    .....

       I have looked into the BSDs - including the ARM version
       of FreeBSD.

    I run freebsd on a pi4 as our main server. A little slow, but works
    well enough. Used to run samba (on an i386), but got rid of windows
    in favour of linux desktops quite a few years ago and never looked back.

       Kinda dinky "main server" ... I use a fast i9/gen-12  :-)

    And what's the power (watts :-}) difference I wonder?

    Incidentally, freebsd is pretty reliable - I've had it run for 9 months
    solid or more in the past; currently at 3. I've no feeling for how
    reliable linux is for that sort of duration. I'd not expect windows to
    run that long; IMBW.

    (I once had a vax/vms system still going after a year without reboot. It
    was only stopped because of a company Christmas shutdown. I still miss
    vms even with its vagaries :-)  )


    My (current) home linux server never 'goes down' except when there is a
    power cut or a kernel or complete distro upgrade.

    I hope its PI4B replacement will be as reliable

    I see no reason why not
    When we ran a shitload of Unix back in the day it never 'went down'
    unless someone installed prototype software on it...Windows was rebooted
    daily.

    --
    Future generations will wonder in bemused amazement that the early
    twenty-first century’s developed world went into hysterical panic over a globally average temperature increase of a few tenths of a degree, and,
    on the basis of gross exaggerations of highly uncertain computer
    projections combined into implausible chains of inference, proceeded to contemplate a rollback of the industrial age.

    Richard Lindzen

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to All on Wed Nov 8 13:37:02 2023
    On 08/11/2023 12:50, mm0fmf wrote:
    On 08/11/2023 05:43, 56d.1152 wrote:
    However setting things like a static IP on 'lite', no
       gui tools,

    Rasbian lite installed here. nmtui is a text mode graphical interface
    for network configuration that is present. Looks like and works like raspi-config.

    Don't say there's no gui for network control when there obviously is.

    Never heard of nmtui before

    I tried it. It didn't work. Probably because I have done things a
    different way already.



    --
    New Socialism consists essentially in being seen to have your heart in
    the right place whilst your head is in the clouds and your hand is in
    someone else's pocket.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Charlie Gibbs@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Wed Nov 8 17:40:10 2023
    On 2023-11-08, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

    On Wed, 8 Nov 2023 00:28:41 -0500
    "56d.1152" <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:

    The way the world is going we'll ALL be relying
    on horses and donkeys again .... :-)

    Then there will have to be far fewer of us.

    Just as well. There are too damned many of us as it is, and the
    politicians are pushing population growth as hard as they can.
    It's all gonna crash, sooner or later (probably sooner).

    --
    /~\ Charlie Gibbs | "Some of you may die,
    \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | but it's a sacrifice
    X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | I'm willing to make."
    / \ if you read it the right way. | -- Lord Farquaad (Shrek)

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  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to Mike Scott on Wed Nov 8 14:50:32 2023
    On Wed, 8 Nov 2023 12:33:46 +0000
    Mike Scott <usenet.16@scottsonline.org.uk.invalid> wrote:

    Incidentally, freebsd is pretty reliable - I've had it run for 9 months
    solid or more in the past; currently at 3.

    Some years back at Yahoo! I turned off some FreeBSD servers that had been running without a reboot for over seven years.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

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  • From mm0fmf@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Wed Nov 8 14:51:30 2023
    On 08/11/2023 13:37, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 08/11/2023 12:50, mm0fmf wrote:
    On 08/11/2023 05:43, 56d.1152 wrote:
    However setting things like a static IP on 'lite', no
       gui tools,

    Rasbian lite installed here. nmtui is a text mode graphical interface
    for network configuration that is present. Looks like and works like
    raspi-config.

    Don't say there's no gui for network control when there obviously is.

    Never heard of nmtui before

    I tried it. It didn't work. Probably because I have done things a
    different way already.



    Doesn't work how?

    It's not installed?
    It doesn't load or show you a menu of options?
    It doesn't have access to network devices?

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    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to All on Wed Nov 8 17:03:26 2023
    On 08/11/2023 14:51, mm0fmf wrote:
    On 08/11/2023 13:37, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 08/11/2023 12:50, mm0fmf wrote:
    On 08/11/2023 05:43, 56d.1152 wrote:
    However setting things like a static IP on 'lite', no
       gui tools,

    Rasbian lite installed here. nmtui is a text mode graphical interface
    for network configuration that is present. Looks like and works like
    raspi-config.

    Don't say there's no gui for network control when there obviously is.

    Never heard of nmtui before

    I tried it. It didn't work. Probably because I have done things a
    different way already.



    Doesn't work how?

    It's not installed?
    It doesn't load or show you a menu of options?
    It doesn't have access to network devices?

    I click on 'edit' and nothing happens. I am not sure that it thinks
    there is even an interface to configure.






    --
    Gun Control: The law that ensures that only criminals have guns.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Mike Scott@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Wed Nov 8 16:36:58 2023
    On 08/11/2023 14:50, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Wed, 8 Nov 2023 12:33:46 +0000
    Mike Scott <usenet.16@scottsonline.org.uk.invalid> wrote:

    Incidentally, freebsd is pretty reliable - I've had it run for 9 months
    solid or more in the past; currently at 3.

    Some years back at Yahoo! I turned off some FreeBSD servers that had been running without a reboot for over seven years.


    I suspect the prize is yours then :-}


    --
    Mike Scott
    Harlow, England

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  • From Chris Elvidge@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Wed Nov 8 17:12:40 2023
    On 08/11/2023 17:03, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 08/11/2023 14:51, mm0fmf wrote:
    On 08/11/2023 13:37, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 08/11/2023 12:50, mm0fmf wrote:
    On 08/11/2023 05:43, 56d.1152 wrote:
    However setting things like a static IP on 'lite', no
    gui tools,

    Rasbian lite installed here. nmtui is a text mode graphical
    interface for network configuration that is present. Looks like and
    works like raspi-config.

    Don't say there's no gui for network control when there obviously is.

    Never heard of nmtui before

    I tried it. It didn't work. Probably because I have done things a
    different way already.



    Doesn't work how?

    It's not installed?
    It doesn't load or show you a menu of options?
    It doesn't have access to network devices?

    I click on 'edit' and nothing happens. I am not sure that it thinks
    there is even an interface to configure.






    Presumably doesn't work in NetworkManager is not running. What does
    nmcli say?


    --
    Chris Elvidge, England
    RUDOLPH'S RED NOSE IS NOT ALCOHOL-RELATED

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  • From Jim Jackson@3:770/3 to Mike Scott on Wed Nov 8 17:39:30 2023
    On 2023-11-08, Mike Scott <usenet.16@scottsonline.org.uk.invalid> wrote:
    On 08/11/2023 14:50, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Wed, 8 Nov 2023 12:33:46 +0000
    Mike Scott <usenet.16@scottsonline.org.uk.invalid> wrote:

    Incidentally, freebsd is pretty reliable - I've had it run for 9 months
    solid or more in the past; currently at 3.

    Some years back at Yahoo! I turned off some FreeBSD servers that had
    been running without a reboot for over seven years.


    I suspect the prize is yours then :-}


    Indeed - I was going to boast about my home linux servers having racked
    up large uptimes, in one case with uptime wrapping round (a good few
    years ago - an old linux kernel) - I was a bit nervous. I think the max
    was 2 and half years - we do have a decent mains power supply, and yes, I
    know that at some point I prob. should have done some security upgrades
    that might have needed a reboot.

    Since I stopped using the EPIA motherboards with VIA chips (20+ years
    ago?) I've never had a crash. The boards have either been powered down
    for hardware changes, kernel upgrades, and once because of finger
    trouble - I typed shutdown in the wrong ssh session!!!

    The server runs DNS, DHCP, Syslog, SMTP, IMAP, NFS, SMB, NTP, HTTP
    servers as well as doing various LAN monitoring - currently on a PI3B,
    with an upgrade to 4B being planned. Needless to say the NFS, SMB, HTTP
    traffic is light, except when backups running!

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  • From Martin Gregorie@3:770/3 to Charlie Gibbs on Wed Nov 8 22:49:20 2023
    On Wed, 08 Nov 2023 17:40:10 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

    On 2023-11-08, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

    On Wed, 8 Nov 2023 00:28:41 -0500 "56d.1152" <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:

    The way the world is going we'll ALL be relying on horses and
    donkeys again .... :-)

    No chance! There hasn't been enough farmland in the USA to feed all the
    horses needed to replace all diesel and petrol-powered road transport
    since the late 1960s. Cities have expanded a lot since then as well, which
    has in turn reduced available farmland still further during the last 70
    years.

    Just as well. There are too damned many of us as it is, and the
    politicians are pushing population growth as hard as they can. It's all
    gonna crash, sooner or later (probably sooner).

    Global population has grown by over 300% in my lifetime.



    --

    Martin | martin at
    Gregorie | gregorie dot org

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  • From 56d.1152@3:770/3 to Mike Scott on Wed Nov 8 23:04:58 2023
    On 11/8/23 7:33 AM, Mike Scott wrote:
    On 08/11/2023 05:28, 56d.1152 wrote:
    On 11/7/23 4:34 AM, Mike Scott wrote:
    On 07/11/2023 03:17, 56d.1152 wrote:
    .....

       I have looked into the BSDs - including the ARM version
       of FreeBSD.

    I run freebsd on a pi4 as our main server. A little slow, but works
    well enough. Used to run samba (on an i386), but got rid of windows
    in favour of linux desktops quite a few years ago and never looked back.

       Kinda dinky "main server" ... I use a fast i9/gen-12  :-)

    And what's the power (watts :-}) difference I wonder?


    Depends on the LOAD. If not much is going on it can
    be fairly conservative, maybe 70 watts.


    Incidentally, freebsd is pretty reliable - I've had it run for 9 months
    solid or more in the past; currently at 3. I've no feeling for how
    reliable linux is for that sort of duration. eI'd not expect windows to
    run that long; IMBW.

    I did have a simple Raspbian (very early) running on a Pi-1 for
    about six+ years without interruption. It only does ONE thing though.
    I'd forgotten it existed. Same SD card for all those years too.

    Upgraded it to Bullseye and a new card a couple of years ago.
    It'll likely run for a decade.

    Now a very BUSY/DIVERSE system ... hard to say how long Linux
    would run without a reboot. Actually Win-Server is pretty good
    in that respect. Thing is, if "busy", you generally do some
    kind of updates LONG before the system becomes unstable.
    With Linux, updated kernels come out rather frequently and
    I always reboot so everything will 'take'.

    (I once had a vax/vms system still going after a year without reboot. It
    was only stopped because of a company Christmas shutdown. I still miss
    vms even with its vagaries :-)  )

    I have a 300+ page - small type - VMS manual. Did use it
    and DID like it. It was well ahead of its time in many
    respects. I'd be happy if some guru would kind of revive
    it, adding a few more modern features, esp internet stuff.
    You USED to be able to get VMS that'd run on X86, maybe ARM,
    emulators but the owners decided to end that. There ARE
    articles on running Unix s-V on a Pi however. VMS was much
    better. Maybe after I'm fully retired ...

    In any case the BSDs *are* solid. They don't try to keep
    up with the latest fads. Perfect long-term function seems
    to be the goal. Linux is far easier to work with, but that
    may come with a price sometimes.

    The systems that intrigue me are those they put on NASA
    deep space probes and such. The redundancy, the ability
    to work around serious hardware problems, amazing. That
    is *art* ......

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  • From mm0fmf@3:770/3 to Chris Elvidge on Wed Nov 8 23:50:48 2023
    On 08/11/2023 17:12, Chris Elvidge wrote:
    On 08/11/2023 17:03, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 08/11/2023 14:51, mm0fmf wrote:
    On 08/11/2023 13:37, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 08/11/2023 12:50, mm0fmf wrote:
    On 08/11/2023 05:43, 56d.1152 wrote:
    However setting things like a static IP on 'lite', no
       gui tools,

    Rasbian lite installed here. nmtui is a text mode graphical
    interface for network configuration that is present. Looks like and
    works like raspi-config.

    Don't say there's no gui for network control when there obviously is. >>>>>
    Never heard of nmtui before

    I tried it. It didn't work. Probably because I have done things a
    different way already.



    Doesn't work how?

    It's not installed?
    It doesn't load or show you a menu of options?
    It doesn't have access to network devices?

    I click on 'edit' and nothing happens. I am not sure that it thinks
    there is even an interface to configure.






    Presumably doesn't work in NetworkManager is not running. What does
    nmcli say?


    If NetworkManager doesn't manage the interfaces then nmtui can't do
    anything and that is what I wrote about several posts back.

    nmcli will show the interfaces and whether NM is managing them. If it
    isn't you need to edit /etc/NetworkManager/NetworkManager.conf so they
    are managed by NM then you can use nmtui. nmtui was so very simple to
    use having used the NM applet on various Linux desktops, just a text
    mode version of what I've used for some time.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From 56d.1152@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Wed Nov 8 23:35:56 2023
    On 11/8/23 8:34 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 08/11/2023 12:33, Mike Scott wrote:
    On 08/11/2023 05:28, 56d.1152 wrote:
    On 11/7/23 4:34 AM, Mike Scott wrote:
    On 07/11/2023 03:17, 56d.1152 wrote:
    .....

       I have looked into the BSDs - including the ARM version
       of FreeBSD.

    I run freebsd on a pi4 as our main server. A little slow, but works
    well enough. Used to run samba (on an i386), but got rid of windows
    in favour of linux desktops quite a few years ago and never looked
    back.

       Kinda dinky "main server" ... I use a fast i9/gen-12  :-)

    And what's the power (watts :-}) difference I wonder?

    Incidentally, freebsd is pretty reliable - I've had it run for 9
    months solid or more in the past; currently at 3. I've no feeling for
    how reliable linux is for that sort of duration. I'd not expect
    windows to run that long; IMBW.

    (I once had a vax/vms system still going after a year without reboot.
    It was only stopped because of a company Christmas shutdown. I still
    miss vms even with its vagaries :-)  )


    My (current) home linux server never 'goes down' except when there is a
    power cut or a kernel or complete distro upgrade.

    I hope its PI4B replacement will be as reliable

    I'm gonna suggest an ASUS "Tuf"/"ROG" board instead.
    Much faster, very very reliable, all the BIOS tweaks
    fully exposed. More expensive than a Pi4 of course ...
    but you get what you pay for.

    I see no reason why not
    When we ran a shitload of Unix back in the day it never 'went down'
    unless someone installed prototype software on it...Windows was rebooted daily.

    And should STILL be rebooted daily :-)

    Actually, I've learned to set auto-reboot on Pi's
    that are running 'messy' - graphics/com-intensive -
    apps. Crontab it at 6am or whatever ... gets rid
    of all those little memory leaks and unclosed
    subprocesses.

    Winders is a MESS. Nobody at M$ really understands how
    it all works, so it's blind patches and tweaks and damn
    the side-effects. Tell the stupid consumers it's all
    THEIR fault. Bet there's STILL some original Gates
    code from the Ancient Times in there. But - Granny KEEPS
    buying it ... hey, it comes "free" with yer new laptop !

    Hmmm ... all that M$ cloud stuff, does anyone think it
    runs on Winders Server ??? :-)

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  • From 56d.1152@3:770/3 to All on Thu Nov 9 00:04:56 2023
    On 11/8/23 9:51 AM, mm0fmf wrote:
    On 08/11/2023 13:37, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 08/11/2023 12:50, mm0fmf wrote:
    On 08/11/2023 05:43, 56d.1152 wrote:
    However setting things like a static IP on 'lite', no
       gui tools,

    Rasbian lite installed here. nmtui is a text mode graphical interface
    for network configuration that is present. Looks like and works like
    raspi-config.

    Don't say there's no gui for network control when there obviously is.

    Never heard of nmtui before

    I tried it. It didn't work. Probably because I have done things a
    different way already.



    Doesn't work how?

    It's not installed?
    It doesn't load or show you a menu of options?
    It doesn't have access to network devices?


    ???

    'nmcli' does exist and DOES work ... theoretically
    anyhow. However it's a CRAPPY/COMPLEX/INFLEXIBLE
    utility. I'm about to start writing something better
    "for the rest of us". I'll post it when it's good.

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  • From 56d.1152@3:770/3 to All on Thu Nov 9 00:16:14 2023
    On 11/8/23 7:50 AM, mm0fmf wrote:
    On 08/11/2023 05:43, 56d.1152 wrote:
    However setting things like a static IP on 'lite', no
       gui tools,

    Rasbian lite installed here. nmtui is a text mode graphical interface
    for network configuration that is present. Looks like and works like raspi-config.

    Don't say there's no gui for network control when there obviously is.


    'nmcli' .... but I'm not a nit-picker, typos happen, often.

    Alas nmcli is quite user-unfriendly IMHO. There are days I
    change network stuff several TIMES a day and nmcli is NOT
    my buddy. Ergo the 'templates' I posted the other day for
    /etc/NetworkManager/system-connections

    I'm beginning to work on a Python script that'll be much
    easier to use than nmcli. Still text/terminal, but aimed
    at "the rest of us", the ability to do usual tweaks very
    easily.

    Laziness is the mother of all invention :-)

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  • From mm0fmf@3:770/3 to All on Thu Nov 9 07:58:40 2023
    On 09/11/2023 05:16, 56d.1152 wrote:
    'nmcli' .... but I'm not a nit-picker, typos happen, often.

    No nmtui is the graphical style textual command and nmcli is the pure
    CLI command.

    However, in your case the command is *plonk*!

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Chris Elvidge on Thu Nov 9 08:59:40 2023
    On 08/11/2023 17:12, Chris Elvidge wrote:
    On 08/11/2023 17:03, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 08/11/2023 14:51, mm0fmf wrote:
    On 08/11/2023 13:37, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 08/11/2023 12:50, mm0fmf wrote:
    On 08/11/2023 05:43, 56d.1152 wrote:
    However setting things like a static IP on 'lite', no
       gui tools,

    Rasbian lite installed here. nmtui is a text mode graphical
    interface for network configuration that is present. Looks like and
    works like raspi-config.

    Don't say there's no gui for network control when there obviously is. >>>>>
    Never heard of nmtui before

    I tried it. It didn't work. Probably because I have done things a
    different way already.



    Doesn't work how?

    It's not installed?
    It doesn't load or show you a menu of options?
    It doesn't have access to network devices?

    I click on 'edit' and nothing happens. I am not sure that it thinks
    there is even an interface to configure.






    Presumably doesn't work in NetworkManager is not running. What does
    nmcli say?


    No idea and don't have time to play.

    Maybe later :-)


    --
    “Some people like to travel by train because it combines the slowness of
    a car with the cramped public exposure of 
an airplane.”

    Dennis Miller

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  • From Charlie Gibbs@3:770/3 to Martin Gregorie on Thu Nov 9 19:29:24 2023
    On 2023-11-08, Martin Gregorie <martin@mydomain.invalid> wrote:

    On Wed, 08 Nov 2023 17:40:10 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

    On 2023-11-08, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

    On Wed, 8 Nov 2023 00:28:41 -0500 "56d.1152" <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:

    The way the world is going we'll ALL be relying on horses and
    donkeys again .... :-)

    No chance! There hasn't been enough farmland in the USA to feed all the horses needed to replace all diesel and petrol-powered road transport
    since the late 1960s. Cities have expanded a lot since then as well, which has in turn reduced available farmland still further during the last 70 years.

    The problem I heard about horses was waste disposal.

    Just as well. There are too damned many of us as it is, and the
    politicians are pushing population growth as hard as they can. It's all
    gonna crash, sooner or later (probably sooner).

    Global population has grown by over 300% in my lifetime.

    I'm just a young'un - when I was born in 1950 the population was
    2.5 billion, so for me it's just been a 220% increase since birth.

    --
    /~\ Charlie Gibbs | The Internet is like a big city:
    \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | it has plenty of bright lights and
    X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | excitement, but also dark alleys
    / \ if you read it the right way. | down which the unwary get mugged.

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  • From 56d.1152@3:770/3 to All on Tue Nov 14 00:13:08 2023
    On 11/9/23 2:58 AM, mm0fmf wrote:
    On 09/11/2023 05:16, 56d.1152 wrote:
    'nmcli' .... but I'm not a nit-picker, typos happen, often.

    No nmtui is the graphical style textual command and nmcli is the pure
    CLI command.

    However, in your case the command is *plonk*!

    Please do.

    SO many snobs in the LiniVerse ... SO sad.

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  • From 56d.1152@3:770/3 to druck on Tue Nov 14 02:00:46 2023
    On 11/6/23 4:21 PM, druck wrote:
    On 04/11/2023 03:59, 56d.1152 wrote:
       DID run into one very WEIRD issue with Bookworm -
       can't get /home/pi/.config/lxsession/LXDE-pi/autostart
       to work properly on a Pi4. Works fine on a Pi3 though.

    The Pi 4 and later use Wayland (perpetually unfinished and unfit for
    purpose windowing system) so LXDE isn't used. Try switching back to X11
    and all will be well.

    Yep, as noted elsewhere, that WAS the cause.

    Though, with Wayland+LXDE, /home/pi/.config/autostart FOLDER
    is the right place ... but you have to drag/modify .desktop
    files into it. Not quite as flexible unless you point 'em
    at bash or python scripts.

    I'm totally off Wayland at this point. Not, probably NEVER,
    Ready For Prime Time. It has a *niche* with "gamers" ...
    which is ok so far as it goes ... but for max compatibility
    stick with X11. 'Gamers' are a rather small segment of the
    LiniVerse - "infrastructure/devices" is where it's really at.

    Which brings us to BookWorm/NetworkManager, esp for non-GUI
    headless applications ... but I've provided some cheap/EZ
    work-arounds.

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