• Windows-10/11 on a Raspberry Pi

    From David Taylor@3:770/3 to All on Fri Oct 20 04:37:36 2023
    Anyone used this method to install Win-10/ARM successfully on a Raspberry Pi?

    https://www.tomshardware.com/how-to/install-windows-11-raspberry-pi

    Using their method 1 (no PC) I get as far as Windows-10 starting to install on a RasPi-400, and then complaining it can't find its installation files. The 128 GB USB stick I created mounts on a PC as two drives, with the first drive looking like an RPi boot, and the second drive having a large .WIM (Windows image) file, so I'm wondering whether the second partition isn't being seen?

    This is all just for fun - no serious use intended, but perhaps to see whether any x86 programs might work.

    --
    Thanks,
    David
    Web: https://www.satsignal.eu

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Newyana2@3:770/3 to David Taylor on Fri Oct 20 09:05:08 2023
    "David Taylor" <david-taylor@blueyonder.co.uk.invalid> wrote

    | This is all just for fun - no serious use intended, but perhaps to see whether
    | any x86 programs might work.
    |

    It's an ARM CPU. It requires ARM Windows, which is
    probably a simple kiosk system for running tablet trinket
    apps. There would be no way to adapt Win32 to that
    without a whole set of system files to intercept calls,
    with the Win32 software in some kind of sandbox.
    Something like WINE. But even WINE is working on the
    same CPU. It's just translating function calls to Linux
    libraries, not translating CPU instructions.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From =?UTF-8?Q?Bj=C3=B6rn_Lundin?=@3:770/3 to All on Fri Oct 20 16:53:04 2023
    On 2023-10-20 15:05, Newyana2 wrote:
    "David Taylor" <david-taylor@blueyonder.co.uk.invalid> wrote

    | This is all just for fun - no serious use intended, but perhaps to see whether
    | any x86 programs might work.
    |

    It's an ARM CPU. It requires ARM Windows, which is
    probably a simple kiosk system for running tablet trinket
    apps. There would be no way to adapt Win32 to that
    without a whole set of system files to intercept calls,
    with the Win32 software in some kind of sandbox.
    Something like WINE. But even WINE is working on the
    same CPU. It's just translating function calls to Linux
    libraries, not translating CPU instructions.




    It needs something like Apple's Rosetta
    which they used when they went from PPC -> Intel
    or Rosetta 2 when they went from Intel -> ARM


    --
    /Björn

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to bnl@nowhere.com on Fri Oct 20 16:24:38 2023
    On Fri, 20 Oct 2023 16:53:05 +0200
    Björn Lundin <bnl@nowhere.com> wrote:

    It needs something like Apple's Rosetta
    which they used when they went from PPC -> Intel
    or Rosetta 2 when they went from Intel -> ARM

    Microsoft have something like that too - for windows-11

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to David Taylor on Fri Oct 20 16:23:14 2023
    On Fri, 20 Oct 2023 04:37:36 +0100
    David Taylor <david-taylor@blueyonder.co.uk.invalid> wrote:


    Using their method 1 (no PC) I get as far as Windows-10 starting to
    install on a RasPi-400, and then complaining it can't find its
    ...
    This is all just for fun - no serious use intended, but perhaps to see whether any x86 programs might work.

    According to this article you need Windows-11 to get x86 emulation
    on ARM64

    <https://uk.pcmag.com/migrated-3765-windows-10/136982/microsofts-x86-64-bit-emulator-for-arm-devices-is-exclusive-to-windows-11>

    More info:

    https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/arm/apps-on-arm-x86-emulation


    installation files. The 128 GB USB stick I created mounts on a PC as two drives, with the first drive looking like an RPi boot, and the second
    drive having a large .WIM (Windows image) file, so I'm wondering whether
    the second partition isn't being seen?





    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Fri Oct 20 17:01:30 2023
    On 20/10/2023 16:24, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Fri, 20 Oct 2023 16:53:05 +0200
    Björn Lundin <bnl@nowhere.com> wrote:

    It needs something like Apple's Rosetta
    which they used when they went from PPC -> Intel
    or Rosetta 2 when they went from Intel -> ARM

    Microsoft have something like that too - for windows-11

    It ought to be simple to write a CISC microcode for an ARM to emulate at
    leats a 8086.
    But how fast it would run is another matter


    --
    Canada is all right really, though not for the whole weekend.

    "Saki"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From TimS@3:770/3 to tnp@invalid.invalid on Fri Oct 20 16:53:54 2023
    On 20 Oct 2023 at 17:01:31 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 20/10/2023 16:24, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Fri, 20 Oct 2023 16:53:05 +0200
    Björn Lundin <bnl@nowhere.com> wrote:

    It needs something like Apple's Rosetta
    which they used when they went from PPC -> Intel
    or Rosetta 2 when they went from Intel -> ARM

    Microsoft have something like that too - for windows-11

    It ought to be simple to write a CISC microcode for an ARM to emulate at leats a 8086. But how fast it would run is another matter

    You have to have duplicates of all the libaries and frameworks, too. All of which need testing when you make a new OS version. Which is why Apple doesn't keep Rosetta around for ever, especially as you also need duplicates of all
    the libaries and frameworks for 32-bit and 64-bit. It's prolly why Apple dropped 32-bit support in going from Mojave to Catalina (which I'm now on), as they knew they had the transition to ARM coming up. Not that the loss of
    32-bit app support affected me, as the only remaining one I had was the Usenet client I was running. But then lo and behold, up pops someone and writes a new macOS Usenet client from the ground up. No need even to mess with Thunderbird.

    --
    Tim

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Theo@3:770/3 to TimS on Fri Oct 20 18:02:04 2023
    TimS <tim@streater.me.uk> wrote:
    On 20 Oct 2023 at 17:01:31 BST, "The Natural Philosopher" <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 20/10/2023 16:24, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Fri, 20 Oct 2023 16:53:05 +0200
    Björn Lundin <bnl@nowhere.com> wrote:

    It needs something like Apple's Rosetta
    which they used when they went from PPC -> Intel
    or Rosetta 2 when they went from Intel -> ARM

    Microsoft have something like that too - for windows-11

    It ought to be simple to write a CISC microcode for an ARM to emulate at leats a 8086. But how fast it would run is another matter

    Arms don't use microcode. However you can write an emulator in Arm instructions, which Microsoft have done.

    You have to have duplicates of all the libaries and frameworks, too. All of which need testing when you make a new OS version. Which is why Apple doesn't keep Rosetta around for ever, especially as you also need duplicates of all the libaries and frameworks for 32-bit and 64-bit. It's prolly why Apple dropped 32-bit support in going from Mojave to Catalina (which I'm now on), as
    they knew they had the transition to ARM coming up. Not that the loss of 32-bit app support affected me, as the only remaining one I had was the Usenet
    client I was running. But then lo and behold, up pops someone and writes a new
    macOS Usenet client from the ground up. No need even to mess with Thunderbird.

    Well then, it's handy that Microsoft have done all that, and you can buy laptops
    and desktops with Windows on Arm, including x86 emulation, right now.

    https://www.notebookcheck.net/Lenovo-ThinkPad-X13s-G1-Laptop-review-Introducing-the-Qualcomm-Snapdragon-8cx-Gen-3.665008.0.html
    https://www.notebookcheck.net/Microsoft-Surface-Pro-9-ARM-review-The-high-end-ARM-convertible-disappoints.699137.0.html
    https://www.windowscentral.com/software-apps/windows-11/i-tried-using-the-windows-dev-kit-2023-as-my-primary-pc-heres-why-you-shouldnt

    (although there are a few rough edges to the experience at present, as the above attest)

    Theo

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to TimS on Fri Oct 20 18:32:58 2023
    On 20/10/2023 17:53, TimS wrote:
    On 20 Oct 2023 at 17:01:31 BST, "The Natural Philosopher" <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 20/10/2023 16:24, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Fri, 20 Oct 2023 16:53:05 +0200
    Björn Lundin <bnl@nowhere.com> wrote:

    It needs something like Apple's Rosetta
    which they used when they went from PPC -> Intel
    or Rosetta 2 when they went from Intel -> ARM

    Microsoft have something like that too - for windows-11

    It ought to be simple to write a CISC microcode for an ARM to emulate at
    leats a 8086. But how fast it would run is another matter

    You have to have duplicates of all the libaries and frameworks, too. All of which need testing when you make a new OS version. Which is why Apple doesn't keep Rosetta around for ever, especially as you also need duplicates of all the libaries and frameworks for 32-bit and 64-bit. It's prolly why Apple dropped 32-bit support in going from Mojave to Catalina (which I'm now on), as
    they knew they had the transition to ARM coming up. Not that the loss of 32-bit app support affected me, as the only remaining one I had was the Usenet
    client I was running. But then lo and behold, up pops someone and writes a new
    macOS Usenet client from the ground up. No need even to mess with Thunderbird.

    I think the point of a full processor emulations is that all the *86
    code 'just runs' on it

    But that doesn't mean it will run *fast*.



    --
    Of what good are dead warriors? … Warriors are those who desire battle
    more than peace. Those who seek battle despite peace. Those who thump
    their spears on the ground and talk of honor. Those who leap high the
    battle dance and dream of glory … The good of dead warriors, Mother, is
    that they are dead.
    Sheri S Tepper: The Awakeners.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Theo on Fri Oct 20 18:36:08 2023
    On 20/10/2023 18:02, Theo wrote:
    TimS <tim@streater.me.uk> wrote:
    On 20 Oct 2023 at 17:01:31 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 20/10/2023 16:24, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Fri, 20 Oct 2023 16:53:05 +0200
    Björn Lundin <bnl@nowhere.com> wrote:

    It needs something like Apple's Rosetta
    which they used when they went from PPC -> Intel
    or Rosetta 2 when they went from Intel -> ARM

    Microsoft have something like that too - for windows-11

    It ought to be simple to write a CISC microcode for an ARM to emulate at >>> leats a 8086. But how fast it would run is another matter

    Arms don't use microcode. However you can write an emulator in Arm instructions, which Microsoft have done.

    That is what I meant. Microcode is a machine code interpreter running
    *inside* a CPU, with ARM, it has to run *outside*.

    You have to have duplicates of all the libaries and frameworks, too. All of >> which need testing when you make a new OS version. Which is why Apple doesn't
    keep Rosetta around for ever, especially as you also need duplicates of all >> the libaries and frameworks for 32-bit and 64-bit. It's prolly why Apple
    dropped 32-bit support in going from Mojave to Catalina (which I'm now on), as
    they knew they had the transition to ARM coming up. Not that the loss of
    32-bit app support affected me, as the only remaining one I had was the Usenet
    client I was running. But then lo and behold, up pops someone and writes a new
    macOS Usenet client from the ground up. No need even to mess with Thunderbird.

    Well then, it's handy that Microsoft have done all that, and you can buy laptops
    and desktops with Windows on Arm, including x86 emulation, right now.

    https://www.notebookcheck.net/Lenovo-ThinkPad-X13s-G1-Laptop-review-Introducing-the-Qualcomm-Snapdragon-8cx-Gen-3.665008.0.html
    https://www.notebookcheck.net/Microsoft-Surface-Pro-9-ARM-review-The-high-end-ARM-convertible-disappoints.699137.0.html
    https://www.windowscentral.com/software-apps/windows-11/i-tried-using-the-windows-dev-kit-2023-as-my-primary-pc-heres-why-you-shouldnt

    (although there are a few rough edges to the experience at present, as the above attest)

    Theo

    The world is going ARM. It doesnt match *86 for total CPU crunch, but
    crunch per watt is very good

    --
    Renewable energy: Expensive solutions that don't work to a problem that
    doesn't exist instituted by self legalising protection rackets that
    don't protect, masquerading as public servants who don't serve the public.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From 56d.1152@3:770/3 to David Taylor on Mon Oct 23 22:08:54 2023
    On 10/19/23 11:37 PM, David Taylor wrote:
    Anyone used this method to install Win-10/ARM successfully on a
    Raspberry Pi?

      https://www.tomshardware.com/how-to/install-windows-11-raspberry-pi

    Using their method 1 (no PC) I get as far as Windows-10 starting to
    install on a RasPi-400, and then complaining it can't find its
    installation files.  The 128 GB USB stick I created mounts on a PC as
    two drives, with the first drive looking like an RPi boot, and the
    second drive having a large .WIM (Windows image) file, so I'm wondering whether the second partition isn't being seen?

    This is all just  for fun - no serious use intended, but perhaps to see whether any x86 programs might work.


    First off ... Win10/11 are *huge* ... you'd likely
    need a large-ish external drive. Samsung sells some
    good USB3 external SSD drives and I've used 'em with Pi.

    BEST chance ... VirtualBox or KVM ..... you are NOT
    gonna run Win even semi-directly on a Pi/ARM. Oh, DO
    buy the Pi4 with the BIG memory. By the time you're
    done it'd be easier to just find a used i5 board
    and run Win on that.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From David Taylor@3:770/3 to All on Tue Oct 24 10:19:06 2023
    On 24/10/2023 03:08, 56d.1152 wrote:
    First off ... Win10/11 are *huge* ... you'd likely need a large-ish external drive. Samsung sells some good USB3 external SSD drives and I've used 'em with
    Pi.

    BEST chance ... VirtualBox or KVM ..... you are NOT gonna run Win even
    semi-directly on a Pi/ARM. Oh, DO buy the Pi4 with the BIG memory. By the time
    you're done it'd be easier to just find a used i5 board and run Win on that.

    Thanks for the suggestions.

    Actually Win-11 fits on a 32 GB SD, but not much room for big programs! A 1TB SanDisk external SSD is noticeably faster, though. Transfer speed is then limited by the RPi-400 USB-3 port.

    Yes, I have Win-11/64/ARM running /directly/ on an RPi-400. It runs some x86 programs too. There's no support for the RPi built-in Wi-Fi so it's either an external adapter (I used a Wi-Fi to Ethernet, but a slow one!) or a direct LAN connection.

    --
    Cheers,
    David
    Web: https://www.satsignal.eu

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Theo@3:770/3 to 56d.1152@ztq9.net on Tue Oct 24 10:26:30 2023
    56d.1152 <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:
    On 10/19/23 11:37 PM, David Taylor wrote:
    Anyone used this method to install Win-10/ARM successfully on a
    Raspberry Pi?

      https://www.tomshardware.com/how-to/install-windows-11-raspberry-pi

    Using their method 1 (no PC) I get as far as Windows-10 starting to
    install on a RasPi-400, and then complaining it can't find its
    installation files.  The 128 GB USB stick I created mounts on a PC as
    two drives, with the first drive looking like an RPi boot, and the
    second drive having a large .WIM (Windows image) file, so I'm wondering whether the second partition isn't being seen?

    I have no experience, but it sounds like nobody else here does either. That page is 2 years old and things change. The best resource I could find is: https://worproject.com/

    which looks like it's been receiving updates recently. I can't comment on
    its validity, but it looks plausible.

    First off ... Win10/11 are *huge* ... you'd likely
    need a large-ish external drive. Samsung sells some
    good USB3 external SSD drives and I've used 'em with Pi.

    Windows isn't that huge. 32GB is the minimum, 64GB is better, 128GB gives
    you plenty of breathing space. All of which are sub-$10 microSD cards.
    Granted you probably want a faster SSD, but it's not bigger than today's bottom-tier storage devices.

    BEST chance ... VirtualBox or KVM ..... you are NOT
    gonna run Win even semi-directly on a Pi/ARM. Oh, DO
    buy the Pi4 with the BIG memory. By the time you're
    done it'd be easier to just find a used i5 board
    and run Win on that.

    Sure, if you just want a Windows desktop then an x86 box is the way to go. However if you have a Pi already, or just want to run one Windows app and
    don't have an x86, then Windows on Arm is possible. Not recommended, but possible.

    Theo

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Michael J. Mahon@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Thu Nov 2 16:16:56 2023
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 20/10/2023 17:53, TimS wrote:
    On 20 Oct 2023 at 17:01:31 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 20/10/2023 16:24, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Fri, 20 Oct 2023 16:53:05 +0200
    Björn Lundin <bnl@nowhere.com> wrote:

    It needs something like Apple's Rosetta
    which they used when they went from PPC -> Intel
    or Rosetta 2 when they went from Intel -> ARM

    Microsoft have something like that too - for windows-11

    It ought to be simple to write a CISC microcode for an ARM to emulate at >>> leats a 8086. But how fast it would run is another matter

    You have to have duplicates of all the libaries and frameworks, too. All of >> which need testing when you make a new OS version. Which is why Apple doesn't
    keep Rosetta around for ever, especially as you also need duplicates of all >> the libaries and frameworks for 32-bit and 64-bit. It's prolly why Apple
    dropped 32-bit support in going from Mojave to Catalina (which I'm now on), as
    they knew they had the transition to ARM coming up. Not that the loss of
    32-bit app support affected me, as the only remaining one I had was the Usenet
    client I was running. But then lo and behold, up pops someone and writes a new
    macOS Usenet client from the ground up. No need even to mess with Thunderbird.

    I think the point of a full processor emulations is that all the *86
    code 'just runs' on it

    But that doesn't mean it will run *fast*.

    The preferred high-performance emulation strategy is object code
    translation, usually managed dynamically, like “throw-away compilation”. When applied to loops and other frequently recurring code, performance can approach native host performance.

    --
    -michael - NadaNet 3.1 and AppleCrate II: http://michaeljmahon.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Michael J. Mahon on Thu Nov 2 16:25:08 2023
    On 02/11/2023 16:16, Michael J. Mahon wrote:
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 20/10/2023 17:53, TimS wrote:
    On 20 Oct 2023 at 17:01:31 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 20/10/2023 16:24, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Fri, 20 Oct 2023 16:53:05 +0200
    Björn Lundin <bnl@nowhere.com> wrote:

    It needs something like Apple's Rosetta
    which they used when they went from PPC -> Intel
    or Rosetta 2 when they went from Intel -> ARM

    Microsoft have something like that too - for windows-11

    It ought to be simple to write a CISC microcode for an ARM to emulate at >>>> leats a 8086. But how fast it would run is another matter

    You have to have duplicates of all the libaries and frameworks, too. All of >>> which need testing when you make a new OS version. Which is why Apple doesn't
    keep Rosetta around for ever, especially as you also need duplicates of all >>> the libaries and frameworks for 32-bit and 64-bit. It's prolly why Apple >>> dropped 32-bit support in going from Mojave to Catalina (which I'm now on), as
    they knew they had the transition to ARM coming up. Not that the loss of >>> 32-bit app support affected me, as the only remaining one I had was the Usenet
    client I was running. But then lo and behold, up pops someone and writes a new
    macOS Usenet client from the ground up. No need even to mess with Thunderbird.

    I think the point of a full processor emulations is that all the *86
    code 'just runs' on it

    But that doesn't mean it will run *fast*.

    The preferred high-performance emulation strategy is object code
    translation, usually managed dynamically, like “throw-away compilation”. When applied to loops and other frequently recurring code, performance can approach native host performance.

    Well possibly. What you are essentially describing is external microcode
    to turn a RISC core into a CISC machine.
    But a quad core i7 ot i8 has massive pipelining as well.
    And that needs to be on chip.

    --
    “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false face for the
    urge to rule it.”
    – H. L. Mencken

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Michael J. Mahon@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Fri Nov 3 06:58:14 2023
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 02/11/2023 16:16, Michael J. Mahon wrote:
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 20/10/2023 17:53, TimS wrote:
    On 20 Oct 2023 at 17:01:31 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 20/10/2023 16:24, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Fri, 20 Oct 2023 16:53:05 +0200
    Björn Lundin <bnl@nowhere.com> wrote:

    It needs something like Apple's Rosetta
    which they used when they went from PPC -> Intel
    or Rosetta 2 when they went from Intel -> ARM

    Microsoft have something like that too - for windows-11

    It ought to be simple to write a CISC microcode for an ARM to emulate at >>>>> leats a 8086. But how fast it would run is another matter

    You have to have duplicates of all the libaries and frameworks, too. All of
    which need testing when you make a new OS version. Which is why Apple doesn't
    keep Rosetta around for ever, especially as you also need duplicates of all
    the libaries and frameworks for 32-bit and 64-bit. It's prolly why Apple >>>> dropped 32-bit support in going from Mojave to Catalina (which I'm now on), as
    they knew they had the transition to ARM coming up. Not that the loss of >>>> 32-bit app support affected me, as the only remaining one I had was the Usenet
    client I was running. But then lo and behold, up pops someone and writes a new
    macOS Usenet client from the ground up. No need even to mess with Thunderbird.

    I think the point of a full processor emulations is that all the *86
    code 'just runs' on it

    But that doesn't mean it will run *fast*.

    The preferred high-performance emulation strategy is object code
    translation, usually managed dynamically, like “throw-away compilation”. >> When applied to loops and other frequently recurring code, performance can >> approach native host performance.

    Well possibly. What you are essentially describing is external microcode
    to turn a RISC core into a CISC machine.
    But a quad core i7 ot i8 has massive pipelining as well.
    And that needs to be on chip.


    Your description is correct—in fact, I often described RISC machines as “compile to microcode” machines! I’ve mostly seen object code translation
    used as a “compatibility” or “migration” strategy rather than viewing it as
    an implementation technique for a CISC architecture.

    By “native host performance” I meant that the code performance can approach the native performance of the code compiled for the RISC host. In fact, it
    can exceed this performance, since the object code translation is done dynamically in the presence of actual data, a benefit unavailable to source code compilers.

    And RISC architectures are quite amenable to aggressive pipelining and
    multiple instruction dispatch—something that gets quite hairy with the x86 architecture (but of course Intel is not afraid of hairyness ;-).

    --
    -michael - NadaNet 3.1 and AppleCrate II: http://michaeljmahon.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From druck@3:770/3 to All on Fri Nov 3 10:15:38 2023
    T24gMDMvMTEvMjAyMyAwNjo1OCwgTWljaGFlbCBKLiBNYWhvbiB3cm90ZToNCj4gQnkg4oCc bmF0aXZlIGhvc3QgcGVyZm9ybWFuY2XigJ0gSSBtZWFudCB0aGF0IHRoZSBjb2RlIHBlcmZv cm1hbmNlIGNhbiBhcHByb2FjaA0KPiB0aGUgbmF0aXZlIHBlcmZvcm1hbmNlIG9mIHRoZSBj b2RlIGNvbXBpbGVkIGZvciB0aGUgUklTQyBob3N0LiBJbiBmYWN0LCBpdA0KPiBjYW4gZXhj ZWVkIHRoaXMgcGVyZm9ybWFuY2UsIHNpbmNlIHRoZSBvYmplY3QgY29kZSB0cmFuc2xhdGlv biBpcyBkb25lDQo+IGR5bmFtaWNhbGx5IGluIHRoZSBwcmVzZW5jZSBvZiBhY3R1YWwgZGF0 YSwgYSBiZW5lZml0IHVuYXZhaWxhYmxlIHRvIHNvdXJjZQ0KPiBjb2RlIGNvbXBpbGVycy4N Cj4gDQo+IEFuZCBSSVNDIGFyY2hpdGVjdHVyZXMgYXJlIHF1aXRlIGFtZW5hYmxlIHRvIGFn Z3Jlc3NpdmUgcGlwZWxpbmluZyBhbmQNCj4gbXVsdGlwbGUgaW5zdHJ1Y3Rpb24gZGlzcGF0 Y2jigJRzb21ldGhpbmcgdGhhdCBnZXRzIHF1aXRlIGhhaXJ5IHdpdGggdGhlIHg4Ng0KPiBh cmNoaXRlY3R1cmUgKGJ1dCBvZiBjb3Vyc2UgSW50ZWwgaXMgbm90IGFmcmFpZCBvZiBoYWly eW5lc3MgOy0pLg0KDQpPbiBvZiB0aGUgbmljZSBmZWF0dXJlcyBvZiAzMiBiaXQgQVJNIGF0 IGxlYXN0IGFzIGZhciBhcyBodW1hbiANCnByb2dyYW1tZXJzIG9mIGVhcmxpZXIgQVJNcywg d2FzIGNvbmRpdGlvbmFsIGluc3RydWN0aW9ucywgd2hpY2ggDQplbGltaW5hdGVkIHRoZSBu ZWVkIGZvciBwaXBlbGluZSBzdGFsbGluZyBicmFuY2hlcyBhcm91bmQgc21hbGwgc2VjdGlv bnMgDQpvZiBjb2RlLg0KDQpIb3dldmVyLCB3aXRoIG1vcmUgc29waGlzdGljYXRlZCBwcm9j ZXNzb3JzIGl0IHByZXZlbnRzIHRoZSBicmFuY2ggDQpwcmVkaWN0b3IgZWxpbWluYXRpbmcg dGhlIGluc3RydWN0aW9ucyBlbnRpcmVseSBmcm9tIHRoZSBwaXBlbGluZSAodGhlIA0KdmFz dCBtYWpvcml0eSBvZiB0aGUgdGltZSksIGFuZCBpbnN0ZWFkIGV2YWx1YXRlcyB0byBOT1BT IHRha2luZyB1cCANCmV4ZWN1dGlvbiBzbG90cy4gSXQgYWxzbyBtYWtlcyB0aGUgZ28gZmFz dGVyIHN0cmlwZXMgb2Ygc3VwZXJzY2FsYXIgYW5kIA0Kb3V0IG9mIG9yZGVyIGV4ZWN1dGlv biBtb3JlIHRyaWNreSBhbmQgbGVzcyBlZmZpY2llbnQuDQoNCldpdGggYSBjb2RlIHRyYW5z bGF0b3IgdGhlIGNvbmRpdGlvbmFsIDMyIGJpdCBpbnN0cnVjdGlvbnMgY2FuIGJlIHR1cm5l ZCANCmludG8gNjQgYml0IGNvZGUgc2VjdGlvbnMgc3Vycm91bmRlZCBieSBzbWFsbCBicmFu Y2hlcywgbWFraW5nIGl0IGxvb2sgDQpsaWtlIGhvcnJpYmxlIHNwYWdoZXR0aSBjb2RlIGZv ciBodW1hbnMgKGlmIGFueW9uZSBzdGlsbCBleWViYWxscyANCkFBcmNoNjQpLCBidXQgZmFy IG1vcmUgb3B0aW1hbCB0byBtb2Rlcm4gQ1BVcy4NCg0KLS0tZHJ1Y2sNCg==

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From mm0fmf@3:770/3 to druck on Fri Nov 3 10:47:22 2023
    On 03/11/2023 10:15, druck wrote:
    On 03/11/2023 06:58, Michael J. Mahon wrote:
    By “native host performance” I meant that the code performance can
    approach
    the native performance of the code compiled for the RISC host. In
    fact, it
    can exceed this performance, since the object code translation is done
    dynamically in the presence of actual data, a benefit unavailable to
    source
    code compilers.

    And RISC architectures are quite amenable to aggressive pipelining and
    multiple instruction dispatch—something that gets quite hairy with the
    x86
    architecture (but of course Intel is not afraid of hairyness ;-).

    On of the nice features of 32 bit ARM at least as far as human
    programmers of earlier ARMs, was conditional instructions, which
    eliminated the need for pipeline stalling branches around small sections
    of code.

    However, with more sophisticated processors it prevents the branch
    predictor eliminating the instructions entirely from the pipeline (the
    vast majority of the time), and instead evaluates to NOPS taking up
    execution slots. It also makes the go faster stripes of superscalar and
    out of order execution more tricky and less efficient.

    With a code translator the conditional 32 bit instructions can be turned
    into 64 bit code sections surrounded by small branches, making it look
    like horrible spaghetti code for humans (if anyone still eyeballs
    AArch64), but far more optimal to modern CPUs.

    ---druck

    Many years back, I worked were we did conversions of games for 6502
    based home computers to Z80 machines. We were able to get the source for
    some 6502 games as the conversion needed to be done very quickly. Large
    amounts of the game logic was rewritten in native Z80 but there was
    significant amounts of maths in the game's "real world". We used a 6502 simulator where each 6502 instruction was used to find canned chunks of
    Z80 code. The maths stuff typically ran at 65% of the native 6502. We
    added extra 6502 instructions so you could be in the 6502 emulation and
    execute a JSRZ80 opcode that let you run large amounts of Z80 native
    code and return back into the emulator. The result was the game played
    the same on Z80 home computers as on 6502 computers. Apple copied us
    and did similar stuff when it started offering PowerPC based Macs and
    had the Mac Toolbox code in both PowerPC and 68000 versions. Sometimes
    it was quicker when emulating 68000 code to emulate 68000 Toolbox code
    than jump back forth between PowerPC and 68000 mode. Apple never paid us royalties for the idea!

    Now I work on full simulation of SoCs using ARM CPUs as well simulation
    of the other hardware we do dynamic JIT compilation of x86-64 code
    snippets based on the inputted ARM code. I'd have thought that maybe generating, executing, discarding and regenerating the code would be
    less efficient but commonly used sections get cached and this method
    also makes simulation of things like cache-coherent memory on the ARM
    side easier.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From 56d.1152@3:770/3 to David Taylor on Tue Nov 7 01:35:46 2023
    On 10/24/23 5:19 AM, David Taylor wrote:
    On 24/10/2023 03:08, 56d.1152 wrote:
    First off ... Win10/11 are *huge* ... you'd likely need a large-ish
    external drive. Samsung sells some good USB3 external SSD drives and
    I've used 'em with Pi.

    BEST chance ... VirtualBox or KVM ..... you are NOT gonna run Win even
    semi-directly on a Pi/ARM. Oh, DO buy the Pi4 with the BIG memory. By
    the time you're done it'd be easier to just find a used i5 board and
    run Win on that.

    Thanks for the suggestions.

    Actually Win-11 fits on a 32 GB SD, but not much room for big programs!
    A 1TB SanDisk external SSD is noticeably faster, though.  Transfer speed
    is then limited by the RPi-400 USB-3 port.

    Yes, I have Win-11/64/ARM running /directly/ on an RPi-400.  It runs
    some x86 programs too.  There's no support for the RPi built-in Wi-Fi so it's either an external adapter (I used a Wi-Fi to Ethernet, but a slow
    one!) or a direct LAN connection.


    Yea, they're just mostly in two different universes.

    PIs were meant to fit a *niche* between microcontrollers
    and "real PCs" ... and IMHO they oughtta stay there. It's
    a valuable niche. Anything much more than a Pi4 or Pi5
    and you may as well just buy a low-end mini PC or use
    and old Win laptop. There are 'NUC's these days, and
    some newer "Bee"-somethings, that are reasonably small
    and 'inexpensive'. Could probably run Linux on some,
    but the Pi and Linux go together much more logically.

    There ARE competitors to the PIs now. The two 'fruity'
    ones, Orange and Banana, are OK - but last I looked do
    not have onboard WiFi. I *think* I saw that newer ones
    were coming out that did (and had *horrible* performance
    from USB/WiFi adapters on the existing units). The old
    loved BBBs I think *do* have WiFi now - and run Linux -
    but not sure about the performance. The base Pi4 plus
    'Motion' can handle at least two 4k cams (though it is
    smart to use 'cpulimit' to keep it from using up the
    entire capacity). For 1080p I have one dealing with
    SEVEN cams ... two attached, five remote wireless ...
    with 'Motion' and it's NOT overloaded (at 1-fps anyhow).

    I bought a newer BBB but haven't had a chance to play with
    it yet. It, plus the relay 'cape', may be the core of my
    home security system if the PIs disappoint. Have one
    Banana + Motion serving an mjpeg stream from a security
    webcam (though it does have to use plug-in networking).
    Still cheaper, and more versatile, than many lower-end
    'IP security cams'. Actually a Pi2b plus Motion can
    serve ONE webcam stream quite nicely.

    I like the PI "niche" - it is in sync with how I like
    to use 'computers' - for 'devices'/'things'. Leave
    the other crap to M$ Winders .....

    (ok, I own NO Winders computers at all - even this
    laptop is MX Linux ... never ran Winders for one
    second, which I'm proud of :-)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Jim Jackson@3:770/3 to 56d.1152@ztq9.net on Tue Nov 7 15:12:22 2023
    On 2023-11-07, 56d.1152 <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:

    PIs were meant to fit a *niche* between microcontrollers
    and "real PCs" ... and IMHO they oughtta stay there. It's
    a valuable niche. Anything much more than a Pi4 or Pi5
    and you may as well just buy a low-end mini PC or use
    and old Win laptop. There are 'NUC's these days, and

    NUCs aren't that cheap. But Linux works fine on them (my main desktop is
    a NUC).

    When a 16G Pi5 comes out, I'd be interested in what its cost would be
    with an NVME adapter. But suspect that'll be well into next year. I
    reckon from what I've read that the performance would be pretty close to
    my 16G I5 NUC with NVME SSD - and I suspect it would be a lot cheaper.
    And I suspect it would use less power.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From druck@3:770/3 to All on Tue Nov 7 21:26:50 2023
    T24gMDcvMTEvMjAyMyAwNjozNSwgNTZkLjExNTIgd3JvdGU6DQo+ICDCoCBQSXMgd2VyZSBt ZWFudCB0byBmaXQgYSAqbmljaGUqIGJldHdlZW4gbWljcm9jb250cm9sbGVycw0KPiAgwqAg YW5kICJyZWFsIFBDcyIgLi4uIGFuZCBJTUhPIHRoZXkgb3VnaHR0YSBzdGF5IHRoZXJlLiBJ dCdzDQo+ICDCoCBhIHZhbHVhYmxlIG5pY2hlLiBBbnl0aGluZyBtdWNoIG1vcmUgdGhhbiBh IFBpNCBvciBQaTUNCj4gIMKgIGFuZCB5b3UgbWF5IGFzIHdlbGwganVzdCBidXkgYSBsb3ct ZW5kIG1pbmkgUEMgb3IgdXNlDQo+ICDCoCBhbmQgb2xkIFdpbiBsYXB0b3AuIFRoZXJlIGFy ZSAnTlVDJ3MgdGhlc2UgZGF5cywgYW5kDQo+ICDCoCBzb21lIG5ld2VyICJCZWUiLXNvbWV0 aGluZ3MsIHRoYXQgYXJlIHJlYXNvbmFibHkgc21hbGwNCj4gIMKgIGFuZCAnaW5leHBlbnNp dmUnLiBDb3VsZCBwcm9iYWJseSBydW4gTGludXggb24gc29tZSwNCj4gIMKgIGJ1dCB0aGUg UGkgYW5kIExpbnV4IGdvIHRvZ2V0aGVyIG11Y2ggbW9yZSBsb2dpY2FsbHkuDQoNCk5VQ3Mg Y29zdCB2YXN0bHkgbW9yZS4NCg0KV2h5IHNob3VsZCBSYXNwYmVycnkgUGkgbm90IHByb2R1 Y2UgbW9yZSBwb3dlcmZ1bCBtYWNoaW5lcz8gVGhleSBhcmVuJ3QgDQphYmFuZG9uaW5nIHRo ZSBsb3dlciBlbmQgbWFjaGluZXMsIHRoZSBQaWNvLCBaZXJvIDJXLCAzQSssIDRCIDEvMi80 LzhHQiANCmFyZSBzdGlsbCBiZWluZyBzb2xkLCBzbyBhbG9uZyB3aXRoIHRoZSBQaSA1IHRo ZXJlIGlzIGEgcmFuZ2Ugb2YgDQptYWNoaW5lcyBjb3ZlcmluZyBhIHZhc3QgbnVtYmVyIG9m IHVzZSBjYXNlcyBhbmQgYnVkZ2V0cy4NCg0KLS0tZHJ1Y2sNCg0K

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From 56d.1152@3:770/3 to druck on Tue Nov 7 23:04:54 2023
    On 11/7/23 4:26 PM, druck wrote:
    On 07/11/2023 06:35, 56d.1152 wrote:
       PIs were meant to fit a *niche* between microcontrollers
       and "real PCs" ... and IMHO they oughtta stay there. It's
       a valuable niche. Anything much more than a Pi4 or Pi5
       and you may as well just buy a low-end mini PC or use
       and old Win laptop. There are 'NUC's these days, and
       some newer "Bee"-somethings, that are reasonably small
       and 'inexpensive'. Could probably run Linux on some,
       but the Pi and Linux go together much more logically.

    NUCs cost vastly more.

    But not :

    https://www.amazon.com/Beelink-Desktop-Computer-Support-Ethernet/dp/B0BVLS7ZHP/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=beelink+pc&qid=1699414262&s=electronics&sr=1-3

    Face it, Pi5 + 'SD' power supply + case & wires ... these
    "bee" units are VERY competitive.

    Why should Raspberry Pi not produce more powerful machines? They aren't abandoning the lower end machines, the Pico, Zero 2W, 3A+, 4B 1/2/4/8GB
    are still being sold, so along with the Pi 5 there is a range of
    machines covering a vast number of use cases and budgets.

    Can't buy rPi 1s anymore. There are a few 2s still out
    there, but for how long ? Those ARE useful - retooled
    one into good service last week. JUST strong enough.

    The good bit is that they've managed to keep updated OSs
    that'll still run on the old units - I know, I have a Pi-1b,
    the kind with fewer GPIO pins, that's still been doing its
    ONE simple thing for a LONG time. Still ran on basically the
    original Raspbian. Recently updated to Bullseye - and it
    all still worked. Should be good for another decade. Not
    actively networked so 'security' is not a prob. Amazed the
    SD card worked for basically a decade though ....

    (now use Samsung 'Endurance' SD cards ... and I think
    they've just come out with something that'll allegedly
    survive two or three times as many cycles)

    I love "long-term support" - be it hardware or software.
    If I'm gonna DO something complicated I want it to LAST.

    Built a bunch of embedded devices on 'Rabbits' and the
    company *assured* they'd still make that model for a
    decade. They lied. The "New and Better" had wiring SO
    small mere humans couldn't DEAL. Now my previous embedded
    device was based on an 8051 clone with a 'battery' of
    some kind in the fat case to keep NV RAM alive. THEY
    kept selling THOSE for a good decade ... even kept using
    a rec I'd mailed them. Had a good 'BASIC' compiler too.
    Amazing what you can do with 32kb if you have a good
    tight compiler ...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From 56d.1152@3:770/3 to Jim Jackson on Tue Nov 7 22:32:36 2023
    On 11/7/23 10:12 AM, Jim Jackson wrote:
    On 2023-11-07, 56d.1152 <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:

    PIs were meant to fit a *niche* between microcontrollers
    and "real PCs" ... and IMHO they oughtta stay there. It's
    a valuable niche. Anything much more than a Pi4 or Pi5
    and you may as well just buy a low-end mini PC or use
    and old Win laptop. There are 'NUC's these days, and

    NUCs aren't that cheap. But Linux works fine on them (my main desktop is
    a NUC).

    Look up "BeeLink" on Amazon ...

    SOME, the lower end - which is about one or two steps
    above a Pi4 - are quite affordable.


    https://www.amazon.com/Beelink-Desktop-Computer-Support-Ethernet/dp/B0BVLS7ZHP/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=beelink+pc&qid=1699414262&s=electronics&sr=1-3

    When a 16G Pi5 comes out, I'd be interested in what its cost would be
    with an NVME adapter. But suspect that'll be well into next year. I
    reckon from what I've read that the performance would be pretty close to
    my 16G I5 NUC with NVME SSD - and I suspect it would be a lot cheaper.
    And I suspect it would use less power.

    The "credit-card" profile of the PIs has always been
    a big plus. The (relatively) low power required has
    also been a plus. The low(er) PRICE has always been
    a plus. As I said, they fill a *niche* quite nicely.

    But their AMBITIONS seem to aim towards leaving that
    safe and useful niche ...... and it'll kill them.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to druck on Wed Nov 8 06:38:22 2023
    On 07/11/2023 21:26, druck wrote:
    On 07/11/2023 06:35, 56d.1152 wrote:
       PIs were meant to fit a *niche* between microcontrollers
       and "real PCs" ... and IMHO they oughtta stay there. It's
       a valuable niche. Anything much more than a Pi4 or Pi5
       and you may as well just buy a low-end mini PC or use
       and old Win laptop. There are 'NUC's these days, and
       some newer "Bee"-somethings, that are reasonably small
       and 'inexpensive'. Could probably run Linux on some,
       but the Pi and Linux go together much more logically.

    NUCs cost vastly more.

    Why should Raspberry Pi not produce more powerful machines? They aren't abandoning the lower end machines, the Pico, Zero 2W, 3A+, 4B 1/2/4/8GB
    are still being sold, so along with the Pi 5 there is a range of
    machines covering a vast number of use cases and budgets.

    ---druck

    +1

    As long as Pi can beat the price/performance targets of its competitors
    it will reign.

    An Arduino at £20 against a PICO W PI at £7 is a no brainer.

    ARM are also moving into INTEL space and given the cost of any INTEL CPU
    and the electricity to run it these days, they will probably win almost everywhere.

    Some data centres are talking about owning their own small modular
    nuclear reactor...because its *cheaper* than buying electrons off the (renewable so called) grid.


    --
    "Anyone who believes that the laws of physics are mere social
    conventions is invited to try transgressing those conventions from the
    windows of my apartment. (I live on the twenty-first floor.) "

    Alan Sokal

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to All on Wed Nov 8 06:42:50 2023
    On 08/11/2023 03:32, 56d.1152 wrote:
    The "credit-card" profile of the PIs has always been
      a big plus. The (relatively) low power required has
      also been a plus. The low(er) PRICE has always been
      a plus. As I said, they fill a *niche* quite nicely.

      But their AMBITIONS seem to aim towards leaving that
      safe and useful niche ...... and it'll kill them.

    Not really. If they are competitive they will win, If not, they wont.

    Stop thinking in ideological terms and look to why people buy what they buy.

    If someone brought out a PI that costs the same as an intel MoBo, and
    was inferior in performance, no one would buy it.

    If they brought out a PICO that cost more than an equivalent Arduino,
    no one would buy it,


    --
    “when things get difficult you just have to lie”

    ― Jean Claud Jüncker

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Tom Blenko@3:770/3 to 56d.1152@ztq9.net on Tue Nov 7 22:48:36 2023
    In article <8L2dnVbnC4z3nNb4nZ2dnZfqn_idnZ2d@earthlink.com>, 56d.1152 <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:

    ...
    The "credit-card" profile of the PIs has always been
    a big plus. The (relatively) low power required has
    also been a plus. The low(er) PRICE has always been
    a plus. As I said, they fill a *niche* quite nicely.

    But their AMBITIONS seem to aim towards leaving that
    safe and useful niche ...... and it'll kill them.

    We had a resurrected Maker Faire near me last month after a few-year
    hiatus. The Raspberry Pi guys had a booth and were happy to discuss the
    RPi-5 product... and to give away mousepads.

    I asked about their plans for product evolution. They said they were
    planning to continue growing performance without leaving behind
    existing customers -- by continuing to offer existing products.

    I thought this was pretty clever. Assumes they can continue production indefinitely across the expanding line. And they can drop products at
    the low end (or elsewhere) if the customers tell them to.

    Tom

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to All on Wed Nov 8 06:48:44 2023
    On 08/11/2023 04:04, 56d.1152 wrote:
    On 11/7/23 4:26 PM, druck wrote:
    On 07/11/2023 06:35, 56d.1152 wrote:
       PIs were meant to fit a *niche* between microcontrollers
       and "real PCs" ... and IMHO they oughtta stay there. It's
       a valuable niche. Anything much more than a Pi4 or Pi5
       and you may as well just buy a low-end mini PC or use
       and old Win laptop. There are 'NUC's these days, and
       some newer "Bee"-somethings, that are reasonably small
       and 'inexpensive'. Could probably run Linux on some,
       but the Pi and Linux go together much more logically.

    NUCs cost vastly more.

     But not :

    https://www.amazon.com/Beelink-Desktop-Computer-Support-Ethernet/dp/B0BVLS7ZHP/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=beelink+pc&qid=1699414262&s=electronics&sr=1-3

      Face it, Pi5 + 'SD' power supply + case & wires ... these
      "bee" units are VERY competitive.

    Why should Raspberry Pi not produce more powerful machines? They
    aren't abandoning the lower end machines, the Pico, Zero 2W, 3A+, 4B
    1/2/4/8GB are still being sold, so along with the Pi 5 there is a
    range of machines covering a vast number of use cases and budgets.

      Can't buy rPi 1s anymore. There are a few 2s still out
      there, but for how long ? Those ARE useful - retooled
      one into good service last week. JUST strong enough.

    There is the pi zero instead.

      The good bit is that they've managed to keep updated OSs
      that'll still run on the old units - I know, I have a Pi-1b,
      the kind with fewer GPIO pins, that's still been doing its
      ONE simple thing for a LONG time. Still ran on basically the
      original Raspbian.  Recently updated to Bullseye - and it
      all still worked. Should be good for another decade. Not
      actively networked so 'security' is not a prob. Amazed the
      SD card worked for basically a decade though ....

      (now use Samsung 'Endurance' SD cards ... and I think
      they've just come out with something that'll allegedly
      survive two or three times as many cycles)

      I love "long-term support" - be it hardware or software.
      If I'm gonna DO something complicated I want it to LAST.

    If it works now, simply never update it. There are stil lab instruments
    running on MSDOS


      Built a bunch of embedded devices on 'Rabbits' and the
      company *assured* they'd still make that model for a
      decade. They lied. The "New and Better" had wiring SO
      small mere humans couldn't DEAL. Now my previous embedded
      device was based on an 8051 clone with a 'battery' of
      some kind in the fat case to keep NV RAM alive. THEY
      kept selling THOSE for a good decade ... even kept using
      a rec I'd mailed them. Had a good 'BASIC' compiler too.
      Amazing what you can do with 32kb if you have a good
      tight compiler ...

    The world is what it is. Stuff will be produced for two reasons - if it
    makes a profit or if the government subsidises it.

    The rest of the assurances are as empty as a politician's promise.

    --
    “Some people like to travel by train because it combines the slowness of
    a car with the cramped public exposure of 
an airplane.”

    Dennis Miller

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Chris Elvidge@3:770/3 to All on Wed Nov 8 09:14:58 2023
    On 08/11/2023 04:04, 56d.1152 wrote:
    On 11/7/23 4:26 PM, druck wrote:
    On 07/11/2023 06:35, 56d.1152 wrote:
    PIs were meant to fit a *niche* between microcontrollers
    and "real PCs" ... and IMHO they oughtta stay there. It's
    a valuable niche. Anything much more than a Pi4 or Pi5
    and you may as well just buy a low-end mini PC or use
    and old Win laptop. There are 'NUC's these days, and
    some newer "Bee"-somethings, that are reasonably small
    and 'inexpensive'. Could probably run Linux on some,
    but the Pi and Linux go together much more logically.

    NUCs cost vastly more.

    But not :

    https://www.amazon.com/Beelink-Desktop-Computer-Support-Ethernet/dp/B0BVLS7ZHP/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=beelink+pc&qid=1699414262&s=electronics&sr=1-3


    Face it, Pi5 + 'SD' power supply + case & wires ... these
    "bee" units are VERY competitive.

    Why should Raspberry Pi not produce more powerful machines? They
    aren't abandoning the lower end machines, the Pico, Zero 2W, 3A+, 4B
    1/2/4/8GB are still being sold, so along with the Pi 5 there is a
    range of machines covering a vast number of use cases and budgets.

    Can't buy rPi 1s anymore. There are a few 2s still out
    there, but for how long ? Those ARE useful - retooled
    one into good service last week. JUST strong enough.

    I've just bought a B+, new, in box, for £10.00 off eBay, to test
    Bookworm. Only problem was to get USB WiFi dongle working. Hey-ho!
    Bookworm 'seems' faster than Bullseye or Buster.


    The good bit is that they've managed to keep updated OSs
    that'll still run on the old units - I know, I have a Pi-1b,
    the kind with fewer GPIO pins, that's still been doing its
    ONE simple thing for a LONG time. Still ran on basically the
    original Raspbian. Recently updated to Bullseye - and it
    all still worked. Should be good for another decade. Not
    actively networked so 'security' is not a prob. Amazed the
    SD card worked for basically a decade though ....

    (now use Samsung 'Endurance' SD cards ... and I think
    they've just come out with something that'll allegedly
    survive two or three times as many cycles)

    I love "long-term support" - be it hardware or software.
    If I'm gonna DO something complicated I want it to LAST.

    Built a bunch of embedded devices on 'Rabbits' and the
    company *assured* they'd still make that model for a
    decade. They lied. The "New and Better" had wiring SO
    small mere humans couldn't DEAL. Now my previous embedded
    device was based on an 8051 clone with a 'battery' of
    some kind in the fat case to keep NV RAM alive. THEY
    kept selling THOSE for a good decade ... even kept using
    a rec I'd mailed them. Had a good 'BASIC' compiler too.
    Amazing what you can do with 32kb if you have a good
    tight compiler ...



    --
    Chris Elvidge, England
    I WILL NOT CONDUCT MY OWN FIRE DRILLS

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From 56g.1173@3:770/3 to Chris Elvidge on Tue Dec 12 00:46:46 2023
    On 11/8/23 4:14 AM, Chris Elvidge wrote:
    On 08/11/2023 04:04, 56d.1152 wrote:
    On 11/7/23 4:26 PM, druck wrote:
    On 07/11/2023 06:35, 56d.1152 wrote:
       PIs were meant to fit a *niche* between microcontrollers
       and "real PCs" ... and IMHO they oughtta stay there. It's
       a valuable niche. Anything much more than a Pi4 or Pi5
       and you may as well just buy a low-end mini PC or use
       and old Win laptop. There are 'NUC's these days, and
       some newer "Bee"-somethings, that are reasonably small
       and 'inexpensive'. Could probably run Linux on some,
       but the Pi and Linux go together much more logically.

    NUCs cost vastly more.

      But not :

    https://www.amazon.com/Beelink-Desktop-Computer-Support-Ethernet/dp/B0BVLS7ZHP/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=beelink+pc&qid=1699414262&s=electronics&sr=1-3


       Face it, Pi5 + 'SD' power supply + case & wires ... these
       "bee" units are VERY competitive.

    Why should Raspberry Pi not produce more powerful machines? They
    aren't abandoning the lower end machines, the Pico, Zero 2W, 3A+, 4B
    1/2/4/8GB are still being sold, so along with the Pi 5 there is a
    range of machines covering a vast number of use cases and budgets.

       Can't buy rPi 1s anymore. There are a few 2s still out
       there, but for how long ? Those ARE useful - retooled
       one into good service last week. JUST strong enough.

    I've just bought a B+, new, in box, for £10.00 off eBay, to test
    Bookworm. Only problem was to get USB WiFi dongle working. Hey-ho!
    Bookworm 'seems' faster than Bullseye or Buster.


    I put "Motion" and a webcam on mine ... now it's
    an IP security cam.

    Got a couple others, Pi-1s, doing other simple stuff.

    Still working on the vid 'latency' issues though ...
    everybody wants to use big video buffers. OpenCV
    seems the worst - you can get 60 sec delays on rtsp
    feeds, and very limited ways to deal with that short
    of custom mod/recompile.

    Anyway, old PI's *can* still serve. Not the latest
    or fastest but oft ADEQUATE and now very CHEAP.

    Pi's fill a valuable niche between microcontrollers
    and 'real PCs'. So long as the makers remember that
    we're all good.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From 56g.1173@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Tue Dec 12 01:32:04 2023
    On 11/8/23 1:42 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 08/11/2023 03:32, 56d.1152 wrote:
    The "credit-card" profile of the PIs has always been
       a big plus. The (relatively) low power required has
       also been a plus. The low(er) PRICE has always been
       a plus. As I said, they fill a *niche* quite nicely.

       But their AMBITIONS seem to aim towards leaving that
       safe and useful niche ...... and it'll kill them.

    Not really. If they are competitive they will win, If not, they wont.

    But they are no longer so "competitive" in that area.
    Look up "BeeLink" units. The lower end ARE pretty
    competitive with Pi5 fer sure, and WILL run full
    Winders if you're stupid enough to use it.

    Stop thinking in ideological terms and look to why people buy what they
    buy.

    They want stuff that WORKS for whatever their needs
    and is also SMALL and CHEAP.

    Pi5 maybe fills that need, but so do competitors now.

    If PI tries to compete with laptops from a few years
    ago then it'll LOSE. No POINT.

    If someone brought out a PI that costs the same as an intel MoBo, and
    was inferior in performance, no one would buy it.

    If someone builds a PI that is as expensive/capable as
    an old laptop, for more money, then doom ....

    If they brought out  a PICO that cost more than an equivalent Arduino,
    no one would buy it,

    Microcontrollers are a completely different area.
    PICOs and competitors are ROUGHLY of equal price
    and performance. This makes the PICO a competitor,
    but not a clear dominator. Ards DO still have a
    clear place in the world ... and some of the more
    recent dual-processor ones ARE very interesting.
    However if you need micro-power, solar perhaps the
    older 8-bit Ards still prevail, and there's endless
    libs/examples to use.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)