• Re: Limiting the capacity of SD cards for the pi

    From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Bob Latham on Sun Sep 17 10:11:36 2023
    On 17/09/2023 09:58, Bob Latham wrote:
    Hi,

    I build images for projects on 4GB cards so that I can save a
    completed image without using too much disc space. My problem comes
    when I try to burn a new card from the saved image. Often it will not
    fit because there are small differences in the size of the cards.

    Does anyone know of a way to reduce the capacity of an SD card so
    that I can make a 4GB card maybe 3.5GB which would mean all cards
    could easily manage it and reduce the size of the save image.


    https://superuser.com/questions/610819/how-to-resize-img-file-created-with-dd

    has a long and detailed description of how to do this...

    ...basically 'parted' to shrink the partitions and 'truncate' to shrink
    the dd'ed image.

    I have no idea if this method works, as I have never tried it

    Another method cited that again I have no experience of is Pishrink - https://github.com/Drewsif/Pishrink

    This looks at a cursory glance to be a script that automates the process.

    Let me know if this works as I will need a similar script in due course

    Thanks.

    Bob.


    --
    "The great thing about Glasgow is that if there's a nuclear attack it'll
    look exactly the same afterwards."

    Billy Connolly

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Bob Latham@3:770/3 to All on Sun Sep 17 09:58:12 2023
    Hi,

    I build images for projects on 4GB cards so that I can save a
    completed image without using too much disc space. My problem comes
    when I try to burn a new card from the saved image. Often it will not
    fit because there are small differences in the size of the cards.

    Does anyone know of a way to reduce the capacity of an SD card so
    that I can make a 4GB card maybe 3.5GB which would mean all cards
    could easily manage it and reduce the size of the save image.


    Thanks.

    Bob.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Bob Latham@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Sun Sep 17 10:58:30 2023
    In article <ue6fs9$ad15$1@dont-email.me>,
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 17/09/2023 09:58, Bob Latham wrote:

    Does anyone know of a way to reduce the capacity of an SD card so
    that I can make a 4GB card maybe 3.5GB which would mean all cards
    could easily manage it and reduce the size of the save image.


    https://superuser.com/questions/610819/how-to-resize-img-file-created-with-dd

    has a long and detailed description of how to do this...

    ...basically 'parted' to shrink the partitions and 'truncate' to
    shrink the dd'ed image.

    I have no idea if this method works, as I have never tried it

    Another method cited that again I have no experience of is
    Pishrink - https://github.com/Drewsif/Pishrink

    This looks at a cursory glance to be a script that automates the
    process.

    Let me know if this works as I will need a similar script in due
    course

    Much appreciate your help, thanks.

    Unfortunately, my knowledge is not great and both of those articles
    very quickly went way passed my understanding.

    I *think* they both assume I have a linux pc, I don't, I have a W10
    PC.

    For another project I recently looked at getting linux to run virtual
    on my PC but again I quickly ran out of knowledge and couldn't do it.

    Articles mostly assume far more knowledge than I have.

    I was hoping to simply reduce the size of the SD card before it was
    even formatted. Maybe that's not possible.

    Thanks anyway.

    Bob.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Bob Latham on Sun Sep 17 11:16:08 2023
    On 17/09/2023 10:58, Bob Latham wrote:
    In article <ue6fs9$ad15$1@dont-email.me>,
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 17/09/2023 09:58, Bob Latham wrote:

    Does anyone know of a way to reduce the capacity of an SD card so
    that I can make a 4GB card maybe 3.5GB which would mean all cards
    could easily manage it and reduce the size of the save image.


    https://superuser.com/questions/610819/how-to-resize-img-file-created-with-dd

    has a long and detailed description of how to do this...

    ...basically 'parted' to shrink the partitions and 'truncate' to
    shrink the dd'ed image.

    I have no idea if this method works, as I have never tried it

    Another method cited that again I have no experience of is
    Pishrink - https://github.com/Drewsif/Pishrink

    This looks at a cursory glance to be a script that automates the
    process.

    Let me know if this works as I will need a similar script in due
    course

    Much appreciate your help, thanks.

    Unfortunately, my knowledge is not great and both of those articles
    very quickly went way passed my understanding.

    I *think* they both assume I have a linux pc, I don't, I have a W10
    PC.


    Ah. I never thought of that. You could install Linux in a virtual machine.


    For another project I recently looked at getting linux to run virtual
    on my PC but again I quickly ran out of knowledge and couldn't do it.

    Oh. Mm.
    Its non trivial getting virtualBox set up if you are not especially
    technical.

    HOWEVER you should be able to get a live Linux working by installing it
    on a DVD or USB stick and booting from that.

    Or installing Linux on some old piece of hardware left over from the Resurrection and the Roman Empire...

    Articles mostly assume far more knowledge than I have.


    Tell me about it.

    I was hoping to simply reduce the size of the SD card before it was
    even formatted. Maybe that's not possible.

    Well I don't think you can do THAT. What you need is an installation on
    e.g. a 2GB card that can never exceed the size of the 4GB target.

    Frankly why not bite the bullet and install 4GB images onto 8/16GB SD
    cards as these are as cheap as 4GB these days?


    Thanks anyway.

    Bob.


    --
    I was brought up to believe that you should never give offence if you
    can avoid it; the new culture tells us you should always take offence if
    you can. There are now experts in the art of taking offence, indeed
    whole academic subjects, such as 'gender studies', devoted to it.

    Sir Roger Scruton

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Bob Latham on Sun Sep 17 12:50:22 2023
    On 17/09/2023 12:28, Bob Latham wrote:
    In article <ue6jl8$aull$1@dont-email.me>,
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 17/09/2023 10:58, Bob Latham wrote:
    In article <ue6fs9$ad15$1@dont-email.me>,
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 17/09/2023 09:58, Bob Latham wrote:

    I *think* they both assume I have a linux pc, I don't, I have a
    W10 PC.

    Ah. I never thought of that. You could install Linux in a virtual
    machine.

    For another project I recently looked at getting linux to run
    virtual on my PC but again I quickly ran out of knowledge and
    couldn't do it.

    Oh. Mm. Its non trivial getting virtualBox set up if you are not
    especially technical.

    HOWEVER you should be able to get a live Linux working by
    installing it on a DVD or USB stick and booting from that.

    Oh yes, I remember doing that many years ago, so it's still possible.
    I might give that a go.

    Or installing Linux on some old piece of hardware left over from
    the Resurrection and the Roman Empire...

    Articles mostly assume far more knowledge than I have.

    Tell me about it.

    I was hoping to simply reduce the size of the SD card before it
    was even formatted. Maybe that's not possible.

    Well I don't think you can do THAT. What you need is an
    installation on e.g. a 2GB card that can never exceed the size of
    the 4GB target.

    Frankly why not bite the bullet and install 4GB images onto 8/16GB
    SD cards as these are as cheap as 4GB these days?

    That's *exactly* what I am doing and then expanding to fill on the
    16GB card.

    I'm hitting the size problem only because I save a build in stages.
    1) OS up and running.
    2) OS + samba running.
    3) Apache or mpd ... running
    4) Pihole or MediaPlayer Running.

    By doing that, if I'm testing beta versions of say media player then
    I don't need to build from scratch.

    But if when i'm building I don't use the smallest 4GB I have and
    build something slightly bigger it will not go on a smaller 4GB card
    later for the next test.

    Bob.

    You could do what I have been half doing, and build a script that turns
    a raw installation into my customised one.


    --
    If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will
    eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such
    time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic
    and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally
    important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for
    the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the
    truth is the greatest enemy of the State.

    Joseph Goebbels

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ian@3:770/3 to Bob Latham on Sun Sep 17 11:48:34 2023
    On 2023-09-17, Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:

    I build images for projects on 4GB cards so that I can save a
    completed image without using too much disc space. My problem comes
    when I try to burn a new card from the saved image. Often it will not
    fit because there are small differences in the size of the cards.

    Does anyone know of a way to reduce the capacity of an SD card so
    that I can make a 4GB card maybe 3.5GB which would mean all cards
    could easily manage it and reduce the size of the save image.

    As it happens, I've just had to do that to reduce a 16GB image on a 32GB
    SD card to < 8GB. I did it just using a Pi and a USB SDcard adapter, old
    school style.

    All as root on the Pi:

    1. Clone the SD card you're trying to shrink (using dd, Win32DiskImager
    or whatever you normally use to read/write SD card images), just
    in case.

    2. Insert the cloned SD card into the USB SDcard adapter connected to
    a Pi. It should appear as /dev/sdc or somesuch (dmesg should show
    it being picked up). I'll assume /dev/sdc for this.

    3. Mount the OS partition (second one) on the local Pi:

    # mkdir /mnt/x
    # mount /dev/sd2 /mnt/x

    4. Tar up the OS partition to the local Pi. Note this assumes there's
    plenty of free space on the Pi filesystem!

    # cd /mnt/x
    # tar -czf ~/xxx.tar.gz .

    5. Unmount the OS parition:

    # cd
    # umount /mnt/x

    6. Use fdisk to delete and recreate the second partition (ONLY!) on
    the SDC card:

    # fdisk /dev/sdc

    p ## shows current partiton table, mine looked like this:

    Disk /dev/sdc: 29.7 GiB, 31914983424 bytes, 62333952 sectors
    Units: sectors of 1 * 512 = 512 bytes
    Sector size (logical/physical): 512 bytes / 512 bytes
    I/O size (minimum/optimal): 512 bytes / 512 bytes
    Disklabel type: dos
    Disk identifier: 0xd9b3f436

    Device Boot Start End Sectors Size Id Type
    /dev/sdc1 8192 532479 524288 256M c W95 FAT32 (LBA)
    /dev/sdc2 532480 31116287 30583808 14.6G 83 Linux


    (still in fdisk):

    d ## Delete second partition
    2

    n
    p
    2
    532480 ## original start sector of the second partition from above
    +7G ## Or however big you want it to be
    y ## Wipe filesystem signature

    p ## Check it looks right:

    Disk /dev/sdc: 29.7 GiB, 31914983424 bytes, 62333952 sectors
    Units: sectors of 1 * 512 = 512 bytes
    Sector size (logical/physical): 512 bytes / 512 bytes
    I/O size (minimum/optimal): 512 bytes / 512 bytes
    Disklabel type: dos
    Disk identifier: 0xd9b3f436

    Device Boot Start End Sectors Size Id Type
    /dev/sdc1 8192 532479 524288 256M c W95 FAT32 (LBA)
    /dev/sdc2 532480 15212543 14680064 7G 83 Linux

    w ## Do it

    7. Create filesyetem in new partition:

    # mkfs -t ext4 /dev/sdc2

    8. Mount the new (empty) partition:

    # mount /dev/sd2 /mnt/x

    9. Restore the OS files into it:

    # cd /mnt/x
    # tar -xzf ~/xxx.tar.gz

    10. Unmount it:

    # cd
    # umount /mnt/x

    11. Now you can create an image file of the reduced boot and OS partitions
    that can be written to a smaller SD card. To do this I have a short script
    that computes the size in MB from the last sector field of the fdisk
    output (messy but it seems to work). Again you'll need plenty of space
    wherever you want to put the new image:

    # last_sector=$(echo "p" | fdisk /dev/sdc | awk '/^\/dev\/sdc/ { print $3 }' | sort -n | tail -1)
    # n_bytes="$(((last_sector+1)*512))"
    # n_mb="$(((n_bytes-1)/1048576+1))"
    # check="$((n_mb*1048576/512))"
    # echo "Last sector: ${last_sector}, ${n_mb} MB, writing ${check} sectors..."

    # dd if=/dev/sdc bs=1048576 count=${n_mb} | gzip > ~/newcard.img.gz


    (E&OE)


    Don't forget to delete the temporary tarfile.



    --
    Ian

    "Tamahome!!!" - "Miaka!!!"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Bob Latham@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Sun Sep 17 12:28:44 2023
    In article <ue6jl8$aull$1@dont-email.me>,
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 17/09/2023 10:58, Bob Latham wrote:
    In article <ue6fs9$ad15$1@dont-email.me>,
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 17/09/2023 09:58, Bob Latham wrote:

    I *think* they both assume I have a linux pc, I don't, I have a
    W10 PC.

    Ah. I never thought of that. You could install Linux in a virtual
    machine.

    For another project I recently looked at getting linux to run
    virtual on my PC but again I quickly ran out of knowledge and
    couldn't do it.

    Oh. Mm. Its non trivial getting virtualBox set up if you are not
    especially technical.

    HOWEVER you should be able to get a live Linux working by
    installing it on a DVD or USB stick and booting from that.

    Oh yes, I remember doing that many years ago, so it's still possible.
    I might give that a go.

    Or installing Linux on some old piece of hardware left over from
    the Resurrection and the Roman Empire...

    Articles mostly assume far more knowledge than I have.

    Tell me about it.

    I was hoping to simply reduce the size of the SD card before it
    was even formatted. Maybe that's not possible.

    Well I don't think you can do THAT. What you need is an
    installation on e.g. a 2GB card that can never exceed the size of
    the 4GB target.

    Frankly why not bite the bullet and install 4GB images onto 8/16GB
    SD cards as these are as cheap as 4GB these days?

    That's *exactly* what I am doing and then expanding to fill on the
    16GB card.

    I'm hitting the size problem only because I save a build in stages.
    1) OS up and running.
    2) OS + samba running.
    3) Apache or mpd ... running
    4) Pihole or MediaPlayer Running.

    By doing that, if I'm testing beta versions of say media player then
    I don't need to build from scratch.

    But if when i'm building I don't use the smallest 4GB I have and
    build something slightly bigger it will not go on a smaller 4GB card
    later for the next test.

    Bob.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Bob Latham@3:770/3 to ${send-direct-email-to-news1021-at- on Sun Sep 17 13:54:42 2023
    In article <slrnugdpsj.vum.${send-direct-email-to-news1021-at-jusme-dot-com-if@vm46.home.jusme.com>,
    Ian <${send-direct-email-to-news1021-at-jusme-dot-com-if-you-must}@jusme.com> wrote:

    As it happens, I've just had to do that to reduce a 16GB image on a
    32GB SD card to < 8GB. I did it just using a Pi and a USB SDcard
    adapter, old school style.

    Thanks Ian that's very interesting. I'll look at this after the race.

    Bob.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Bob Latham@3:770/3 to ${send-direct-email-to-news1021-at- on Sun Sep 17 15:18:22 2023
    In article <slrnugdpsj.vum.${send-direct-email-to-news1021-at-jusme-dot-com-if@vm46.home.jusme.com>,
    Ian <${send-direct-email-to-news1021-at-jusme-dot-com-if-you-must}@jusme.com> wrote:

    1. Clone the SD card you're trying to shrink (using dd,
    Win32DiskImager or whatever you normally use to read/write SD
    card images), just in case.

    Yes. Done.

    2. Insert the cloned SD card into the USB SDcard adapter connected
    to a Pi.

    Yes.

    It should appear as /dev/sdc or somesuch (dmesg should
    show it being picked up).

    So sorry, I've no idea how I would see that? I was logged in to the
    pi via putty before I plugged the device in but nothing appeared.

    I'm only using a headless light version of the pios, is that my
    problem or is it just ignorance?


    Thanks.

    Bob.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Bob Latham on Sun Sep 17 15:40:32 2023
    On 17/09/2023 15:18, Bob Latham wrote:
    In article <slrnugdpsj.vum.${send-direct-email-to-news1021-at-jusme-dot-com-if@vm46.home.jusme.com>,
    Ian <${send-direct-email-to-news1021-at-jusme-dot-com-if-you-must}@jusme.com> wrote:

    1. Clone the SD card you're trying to shrink (using dd,
    Win32DiskImager or whatever you normally use to read/write SD
    card images), just in case.

    Yes. Done.

    2. Insert the cloned SD card into the USB SDcard adapter connected
    to a Pi.

    Yes.

    That is a second SD card adapter plugged into the Pis USB port


    It should appear as /dev/sdc or somesuch (dmesg should
    show it being picked up).

    So sorry, I've no idea how I would see that? I was logged in to the
    pi via putty before I plugged the device in but nothing appeared.

    OK, 'sudo mount' would show what it was and where it was..


    I'm only using a headless light version of the pios, is that my
    problem or is it just ignorance?

    Just ignorance, but its not hard to get there.


    In linux all disks systems look like *files* in the directory /dev/
    The dir command in linux is 'ls' so :

    'ls /dev' should show your disk in there somewhere
    The SD card you are running on will be /dev/mmcblk0 and its two partitions
    /dev/mmcblk0p1 and /dev/mmcblk0p2. These will be 'mounted' on /boot,
    and /

    mount | grep mm

    is a command uou cvan use to see where they are mounted - the '| grep
    mm' means 'select only lines from the output containing 'mm'
    e.g.

    $mount | grep mm
    /dev/mmcblk0p2 on / type ext4 (rw,noatime)
    /dev/mmcblk0p1 on /boot type vfat (rw,relatime,fmask=0022,dmask=0022,codepage=437,iocharset=ascii,shortname=mixed,errors=remount-ro)

    Now if you plug another SD card into the system via a USB SD card reader
    that should be automatically mounted somewhere.

    My guess would be in a media subdirectory of your home directory.

    so

    $mount | grep media
    should tell you what it is called.

    In Linux it is conventional that the whole disk will be files as /dev/something, and partitions on it will be
    /dev/somethinga or
    /dev/somethingb or
    /dev/somethingp1

    etc...

    These are all the *device names*you will need in order to manipulate the partitions and the raw SD card





    Thanks.

    Bob.


    --
    “A leader is best When people barely know he exists. Of a good leader,
    who talks little,When his work is done, his aim fulfilled,They will say,
    “We did this ourselves.”

    ― Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ian@3:770/3 to Mrtn on Sun Sep 17 14:57:40 2023
    On 2023-09-17, Mrtn <mrtn@no-email.invalid> wrote:
    Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> writes:

    In article
    <slrnugdpsj.vum.${send-direct-email-to-news1021-at-jusme-dot-com-if@vm46.home.jusme.com>,
    Ian
    <${send-direct-email-to-news1021-at-jusme-dot-com-if-you-must}@jusme.com> wrote:
    <cut>
    It should appear as /dev/sdc or somesuch (dmesg should
    show it being picked up).

    So sorry, I've no idea how I would see that? I was logged in to the
    pi via putty before I plugged the device in but nothing appeared.

    In putty try typing:
    dmesg
    (and hit enter)
    or
    sudo dmesg
    (and hit enter)
    if you're not logged in as root.

    Yes, that's about it. I see this from dmesg after the SD card is inserted:

    [ 4259.125974] usb-storage 1-1.1.3:1.0: USB Mass Storage device detected
    [ 4259.127272] scsi host0: usb-storage 1-1.1.3:1.0
    [ 4260.181673] scsi 0:0:0:0: Direct-Access Generic STORAGE DEVICE 9325 PQ: 0 ANSI: 0
    [ 4260.183483] scsi 0:0:0:1: Direct-Access Generic STORAGE DEVICE 9325 PQ: 0 ANSI: 0
    [ 4260.185400] scsi 0:0:0:2: Direct-Access Generic STORAGE DEVICE 9325 PQ: 0 ANSI: 0
    [ 4260.187328] scsi 0:0:0:3: Direct-Access Generic STORAGE DEVICE 9325 PQ: 0 ANSI: 0
    [ 4260.223150] sd 0:0:0:2: [sdc] Attached SCSI removable disk
    [ 4260.224466] sd 0:0:0:0: [sda] Attached SCSI removable disk
    [ 4260.227173] sd 0:0:0:3: [sdd] Attached SCSI removable disk
    [ 4260.232037] sd 0:0:0:1: [sdb] Attached SCSI removable disk
    [ 4346.699670] sd 0:0:0:2: [sdc] 62333952 512-byte logical blocks: (31.9 GB/29.7 GiB)
    [ 4346.707646] sdc: sdc1 sdc2
    [ 4346.720048] sdc: sdc1 sdc2


    If you're running any kind of desktop environment that may get in the way and mount the SD
    card in odd places, though if you're running a minimal system that shouldn't be an issue.

    All the commands are standard Linux ones, so should be present.

    I suggest you do "sudo bash" if you're not logging in as root, makes things simpler :)

    --
    Ian

    "Tamahome!!!" - "Miaka!!!"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Bob Latham@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Sun Sep 17 16:17:52 2023
    In article <ue7352$dmc3$1@dont-email.me>,
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 17/09/2023 15:18, Bob Latham wrote:
    In article <slrnugdpsj.vum.${send-direct-email-to-news1021-at-jusme-dot-com-if@vm46.home.jusme.com>,
    Ian <${send-direct-email-to-news1021-at-jusme-dot-com-if-you-must}@jusme.com> wrote:

    1. Clone the SD card you're trying to shrink (using dd,
    Win32DiskImager or whatever you normally use to read/write
    SD card images), just in case.

    Yes. Done.

    2. Insert the cloned SD card into the USB SDcard adapter
    connected to a Pi.

    Yes.

    That is a second SD card adapter plugged into the Pis USB port

    Yes it is.


    It should appear as /dev/sdc or somesuch (dmesg should show
    it being picked up).

    So sorry, I've no idea how I would see that? I was logged in to
    the pi via putty before I plugged the device in but nothing
    appeared.

    OK, 'sudo mount' would show what it was and where it was..

    sudo mount gives me a half a page of text no meaning to me.

    But after some googling I did find the command :

    lsblk

    That shows this...

    NAME MAJ:MIN RM SIZE RO TYPE MOUNTPOINT
    sda 8:0 1 3.6G 0 disk
    +-sda1 8:1 1 256M 0 part
    +-sda2 8:2 1 3.4G 0 part
    mmcblk0 179:0 0 14.8G 0 disk
    +-mmcblk0p1 179:1 0 256M 0 part /boot
    +-mmcblk0p2 179:2 0 14.6G 0 part /

    Despite one website telling me that sda would be the machines hard
    disc I worked out that it wasn't. sda is the sd inserted via usb.
    mmcblk0 is the harddrive.

    So I tried to go a bit further...

    mkdir /mnt/x
    gave Permission denied.
    sudo mkdir /mnt/x
    sudo mount /dev/sda2 /mnt/x
    cd /mnt/x
    all the above seemed to work.

    tar -czf ~/xxx.tar.gz
    gave
    Cowardly refusing to create an empty archive.

    I thought maybe I was supposed to substitute some items in that
    command.


    I'm only using a headless light version of the pios, is that my
    problem or is it just ignorance?

    Just ignorance, but its not hard to get there.

    Thanks for the help it is appreciated.


    In linux all disks systems look like *files* in the directory /dev/
    The dir command in linux is 'ls' so :

    'ls /dev' should show your disk in there somewhere The SD card you
    are running on will be /dev/mmcblk0 and its two partitions
    /dev/mmcblk0p1 and /dev/mmcblk0p2.

    That looks correct.

    These will be 'mounted' on /boot, and /

    mount | grep mm

    is a command uou cvan use to see where they are mounted - the '|
    grep mm' means 'select only lines from the output containing 'mm'
    e.g.

    That's clever: :-)

    $mount | grep mm /dev/mmcblk0p2 on / type ext4 (rw,noatime)
    /dev/mmcblk0p1 on /boot type vfat (rw,relatime,fmask=0022,dmask=0022,codepage=437,iocharset=ascii,shortname=mixed,errors=remount-ro)

    Now if you plug another SD card into the system via a USB SD card
    reader that should be automatically mounted somewhere.

    My guess would be in a media subdirectory of your home directory.

    so

    $mount | grep media should tell you what it is called.

    That doesn't come back with anything, no error, nothing.

    In Linux it is conventional that the whole disk will be files as /dev/something, and partitions on it will be /dev/somethinga or /dev/somethingb or /dev/somethingp1

    etc...

    These are all the *device names*you will need in order to
    manipulate the partitions and the raw SD card

    Thanks for that, I'm learning, slowly.

    I think the usb device sd is /dev/sda with the main partition
    /dev/sda2 does that sound correct?





    Thanks.

    Bob.


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Bob Latham on Sun Sep 17 16:46:46 2023
    On 17/09/2023 16:17, Bob Latham wrote:
    In article <ue7352$dmc3$1@dont-email.me>,
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 17/09/2023 15:18, Bob Latham wrote:
    In article
    <slrnugdpsj.vum.${send-direct-email-to-news1021-at-jusme-dot-com-if@vm46.home.jusme.com>,
    Ian
    <${send-direct-email-to-news1021-at-jusme-dot-com-if-you-must}@jusme.com> wrote:

    1. Clone the SD card you're trying to shrink (using dd,
    Win32DiskImager or whatever you normally use to read/write
    SD card images), just in case.

    Yes. Done.

    2. Insert the cloned SD card into the USB SDcard adapter
    connected to a Pi.

    Yes.

    That is a second SD card adapter plugged into the Pis USB port

    Yes it is.


    It should appear as /dev/sdc or somesuch (dmesg should show
    it being picked up).

    So sorry, I've no idea how I would see that? I was logged in to
    the pi via putty before I plugged the device in but nothing
    appeared.

    OK, 'sudo mount' would show what it was and where it was..

    sudo mount gives me a half a page of text no meaning to me.

    But after some googling I did find the command :

    lsblk

    That shows this...

    NAME MAJ:MIN RM SIZE RO TYPE MOUNTPOINT
    sda 8:0 1 3.6G 0 disk
    +-sda1 8:1 1 256M 0 part
    +-sda2 8:2 1 3.4G 0 part
    mmcblk0 179:0 0 14.8G 0 disk
    +-mmcblk0p1 179:1 0 256M 0 part /boot
    +-mmcblk0p2 179:2 0 14.6G 0 part /

    Despite one website telling me that sda would be the machines hard
    disc I worked out that it wasn't. sda is the sd inserted via usb.
    mmcblk0 is the harddrive.


    This is a Pi. It likes to be different

    So I tried to go a bit further...

    mkdir /mnt/x
    gave Permission denied.
    sudo mkdir /mnt/x
    sudo mount /dev/sda2 /mnt/x
    cd /mnt/x
    all the above seemed to work.

    tar -czf ~/xxx.tar.gz
    gave
    Cowardly refusing to create an empty archive.

    I thought maybe I was supposed to substitute some items in that
    command.

    yes.

    man tar will tell you te tar commands,.

    I think what you want is tar cfz <directory> <output file>

    But a GUI has mane me lazy and I cant remember


    I'm only using a headless light version of the pios, is that my
    problem or is it just ignorance?

    Just ignorance, but its not hard to get there.

    Thanks for the help it is appreciated.


    In linux all disks systems look like *files* in the directory /dev/
    The dir command in linux is 'ls' so :

    'ls /dev' should show your disk in there somewhere The SD card you
    are running on will be /dev/mmcblk0 and its two partitions
    /dev/mmcblk0p1 and /dev/mmcblk0p2.

    That looks correct.

    These will be 'mounted' on /boot, and /

    mount | grep mm

    is a command uou cvan use to see where they are mounted - the '|
    grep mm' means 'select only lines from the output containing 'mm'
    e.g.

    That's clever: :-)

    $mount | grep mm /dev/mmcblk0p2 on / type ext4 (rw,noatime)
    /dev/mmcblk0p1 on /boot type vfat
    (rw,relatime,fmask=0022,dmask=0022,codepage=437,iocharset=ascii,shortname=mixed,errors=remount-ro)

    Now if you plug another SD card into the system via a USB SD card
    reader that should be automatically mounted somewhere.

    My guess would be in a media subdirectory of your home directory.

    so

    $mount | grep media should tell you what it is called.

    That doesn't come back with anything, no error, nothing.

    So its miunted somwheer else.
    In Linux it is conventional that the whole disk will be files as
    /dev/something, and partitions on it will be /dev/somethinga or
    /dev/somethingb or /dev/somethingp1

    etc...

    These are all the *device names*you will need in order to
    manipulate the partitions and the raw SD card

    Thanks for that, I'm learning, slowly.

    I think the usb device sd is /dev/sda with the main partition
    /dev/sda2 does that sound correct?

    Yes. If its a PI card /dev/sda1 will be the thing that ends up as /boot
    - which is a msdos partioned thing. VFAT I think


    "mount | grep sda" will tell you where they ended up.

    --
    Climate is what you expect but weather is what you get.
    Mark Twain

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Bob Latham@3:770/3 to Mrtn on Sun Sep 17 16:24:08 2023
    In article <87wmwoc0zu.fsf@no-email.invalid>,
    Mrtn <mrtn@no-email.invalid> wrote:
    Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> writes:

    In article <slrnugdpsj.vum.${send-direct-email-to-news1021-at-jusme-dot-com-if@vm46.home.jusme.com>,
    Ian <${send-direct-email-to-news1021-at-jusme-dot-com-if-you-must}@jusme.com> wrote:
    <cut>
    It should appear as /dev/sdc or somesuch (dmesg should
    show it being picked up).

    So sorry, I've no idea how I would see that? I was logged in to the
    pi via putty before I plugged the device in but nothing appeared.

    In putty try typing:
    dmesg
    (and hit enter)
    or
    sudo dmesg
    (and hit enter)
    if you're not logged in as root.

    Interesting.

    That gave me a huge list of text but I'm not sure where that helps me.

    Thanks for the suggestion.


    Bob.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Bob Latham@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Sun Sep 17 17:25:42 2023
    In article <ue7717$e079$7@dont-email.me>,
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 17/09/2023 16:17, Bob Latham wrote:
    In article <ue7352$dmc3$1@dont-email.me>,
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 17/09/2023 15:18, Bob Latham wrote:


    tar -czf ~/xxx.tar.gz
    gave
    Cowardly refusing to create an empty archive.

    I thought maybe I was supposed to substitute some items in that
    command.

    yes.

    man tar will tell you te tar commands,.

    I think what you want is tar cfz <directory> <output file>

    But a GUI has mane me lazy and I cant remember


    Well I've looked at and read man tar and downloaded the full manual.
    At the moment it is a long way passed me making sense of it so I'm
    stumped for now.

    Thanks everyone for your help.


    Cheers,

    Bob.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ian@3:770/3 to Bob Latham on Sun Sep 17 16:57:26 2023
    On 2023-09-17, Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:

    tar -czf ~/xxx.tar.gz
    gave
    Cowardly refusing to create an empty archive.

    I thought maybe I was supposed to substitute some items in that
    command.

    Nothing needs substituting, you're just missing the "." as the final parameter:

    # tar -czf ~/xxx.tar.gz .

    (That says what to put in the tarball, "." means the current directory)

    --
    Ian

    "Tamahome!!!" - "Miaka!!!"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Mrtn@3:770/3 to Bob Latham on Sun Sep 17 19:11:42 2023
    Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> writes:

    In article <87wmwoc0zu.fsf@no-email.invalid>,
    Mrtn <mrtn@no-email.invalid> wrote:
    Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> writes:

    In article
    <slrnugdpsj.vum.${send-direct-email-to-news1021-at-jusme-dot-com-if@vm46.home.jusme.com>,
    Ian
    <${send-direct-email-to-news1021-at-jusme-dot-com-if-you-must}@jusme.com> >> > wrote:
    <cut>
    It should appear as /dev/sdc or somesuch (dmesg should
    show it being picked up).

    So sorry, I've no idea how I would see that? I was logged in to the
    pi via putty before I plugged the device in but nothing appeared.

    In putty try typing:
    dmesg
    <cut>

    That gave me a huge list of text but I'm not sure where that helps me.

    You already solved the problem, so it is no longer useful. You already discovered that your USB device is /dev/sda.

    However, as someone already hinted before me, typing dmesg in putty
    should tell you that, if you type it just after inserting the USB in the
    port.

    Since the horse already left the stable, you can put all this in the afterburner.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Bob Latham@3:770/3 to ${send-direct-email-to-news1021-at- on Sun Sep 17 18:14:40 2023
    In article <slrnugebvm.vum.${send-direct-email-to-news1021-at-jusme-dot-com-if@vm46.home.jusme.com>,
    Ian <${send-direct-email-to-news1021-at-jusme-dot-com-if-you-must}@jusme.com> wrote:


    Nothing needs substituting, you're just missing the "." as the
    final parameter:

    # tar -czf ~/xxx.tar.gz .

    (That says what to put in the tarball, "." means the current
    directory)

    Thanks Ian, I would never have worked that out myself.

    I'll have another go tomorrow.

    Bob,

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ian@3:770/3 to Bob Latham on Sun Sep 17 18:22:00 2023
    On 2023-09-17, Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:

    I'll have another go tomorrow.

    Good luck!

    Be sure to do it all from a root shell, not via individual sudo
    calls btw, some of the commands need to be in the same shell as
    previous ones, and sudo breaks that.

    --
    Ian

    "Tamahome!!!" - "Miaka!!!"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Bob Latham@3:770/3 to ${send-direct-email-to-news1021-at- on Sun Sep 17 21:02:56 2023
    In article <slrnugegu8.vum.${send-direct-email-to-news1021-at-jusme-dot-com-if@vm46.home.jusme.com>,
    Ian <${send-direct-email-to-news1021-at-jusme-dot-com-if-you-must}@jusme.com> wrote:
    On 2023-09-17, Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:

    I'll have another go tomorrow.

    Good luck!

    Be sure to do it all from a root shell, not via individual sudo
    calls btw, some of the commands need to be in the same shell as
    previous ones, and sudo breaks that.

    Oh dear. I have zero understanding of that. I'm not going to manage
    this am I?

    Bob.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Martin Gregorie@3:770/3 to All on Sun Sep 17 22:54:58 2023
    Now you know how to mount a disk, you need to know how to find Linux
    commands that can help you do what you want to do with the RPi. For the
    rest of this info to work, you need to know how to login as the default
    user AND how to log in as root:

    1 the 'man name' command shows you a page (which can be very long) that
    tells you what 'name' does and how to use it, Name can be anything
    from a command to a Linux system call or function.

    2 the "apropos 'text' command shows you a list of commands whose manual
    pages have 'text' in their first line of their manual pages.

    3 Using the 'apropos' and 'man' commands is the fastest way I know of of
    finding a standard issue Linux program that will do what you need it to
    do and finding out how to use it,

    4 If you like reading books rather than screens, consider getting a copy
    of "UNIX in a Nutshell" or "Linux in a Nutshell" - both are concise
    references to the way UNIX/Linux works and how to use it.

    There's also "Unix Systems Programming for SVR4" which, although quite
    old now, is still a useful guide to writing programs and applications
    in C.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Computer Nerd Kev@3:770/3 to Bob Latham on Mon Sep 18 09:07:40 2023
    Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:
    Hi,

    I build images for projects on 4GB cards so that I can save a
    completed image without using too much disc space. My problem comes
    when I try to burn a new card from the saved image. Often it will not
    fit because there are small differences in the size of the cards.

    Does anyone know of a way to reduce the capacity of an SD card so
    that I can make a 4GB card maybe 3.5GB which would mean all cards
    could easily manage it and reduce the size of the save image.

    Using Tar as suggested is one option. If you still want to use raw
    image files where the partitioning is already done for you, then
    what I've done for that is create a blank disk image file of the
    size I want (using dd reading from /dev/zero), then partition that
    and copy over the system files before writing that image to a real
    SD card.

    I've also had success with simply creating a partition table with
    blank space at the end of an SD card. If you just copy over as much
    data as will fit on the smaller SD card, it should still work if
    the partitions had all ended before the space ran out. Resizing
    the last partition on the existing card should work too (make a
    backup first). But doing the work on a file instead of a real card
    is probably safer and less confusing. Faster too, especially if
    you create it in /tmp so the write operations all happen in RAM,
    provided you have enough.

    --
    __ __
    #_ < |\| |< _#

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From R.Wieser@3:770/3 to All on Mon Sep 18 08:42:40 2023
    Computer Nerd Kev (and others),

    I've also had success with simply creating a partition table
    with blank space at the end of an SD card.

    I've got the same problem as the OP, and also thought of the above as the simpelest solution to the problem.

    Question : I'm using an OS image (bullseye, bullseye lite) as can be
    downloaded here :

    https://www.raspberrypi.com/software/operating-systems/

    Is there a possibility to edit it in such a way that it will automatically reserve some space (dummy partition or otherwise) at the end of the SD card
    ?

    Regards,
    Rudy Wieser

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Bob Latham@3:770/3 to Martin Gregorie on Mon Sep 18 08:50:44 2023
    In article <ue8042$il0u$1@dont-email.me>,
    Martin Gregorie <martin@mydomain.invalid> wrote:
    Now you know how to mount a disk, you need to know how to find
    Linux commands that can help you do what you want to do with the
    RPi. For the rest of this info to work, you need to know how to
    login as the default user AND how to log in as root:

    1 the 'man name' command shows you a page (which can be very long)
    that tells you what 'name' does and how to use it, Name can be
    anything from a command to a Linux system call or function.

    2 the "apropos 'text' command shows you a list of commands whose
    manual pages have 'text' in their first line of their manual
    pages.

    3 Using the 'apropos' and 'man' commands is the fastest way I know
    of of finding a standard issue Linux program that will do what
    you need it to do and finding out how to use it,

    4 If you like reading books rather than screens, consider getting a
    copy of "UNIX in a Nutshell" or "Linux in a Nutshell" - both are
    concise references to the way UNIX/Linux works and how to use it.

    There's also "Unix Systems Programming for SVR4" which, although
    quite old now, is still a useful guide to writing programs and
    applications in C.

    Thank you for that information. Scary stuff. I've done what I've done
    so far by googling for answers and a little experimenting. I'm
    neither clever nor an academic.

    I wanted to learn how to write code for tcpip comms for another
    platform, I was advised to get a book called "Unix Network
    Programming". It's a thick book and cost a lot of money. I got to
    about page 3 before I was out of my depth and beyond rescue. That's
    why I have not got any linux books.

    Thanks again.

    Bob.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Bob Latham@3:770/3 to Computer Nerd Kev on Mon Sep 18 09:00:24 2023
    In article <650786bd@news.ausics.net>,
    Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote:

    Using Tar as suggested is one option. If you still want to use raw
    image files where the partitioning is already done for you, then
    what I've done for that is create a blank disk image file of the
    size I want (using dd reading from /dev/zero), then partition that
    and copy over the system files before writing that image to a real
    SD card.

    I think I understand the principle there (just), but dear me.
    What is dd?
    What is /dev/zero is that a drive?

    I'd love to do it but don't have anywhere near enough knowledge to do
    it?

    I've also had success with simply creating a partition table with
    blank space at the end of an SD card. If you just copy over as much
    data as will fit on the smaller SD card, it should still work if
    the partitions had all ended before the space ran out. Resizing
    the last partition on the existing card should work too (make a
    backup first). But doing the work on a file instead of a real card
    is probably safer and less confusing. Faster too, especially if
    you create it in /tmp so the write operations all happen in RAM,
    provided you have enough.

    No idea how to create a partition table. Wouldn't know where to start.

    Thanks for trying to help me but you're way above my level.


    Cheers,

    Bob.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ian@3:770/3 to Bob Latham on Mon Sep 18 08:29:48 2023
    On 2023-09-17, Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:
    Oh dear. I have zero understanding of that. I'm not going to manage
    this am I?

    If you follow the instructions exactly, and it all works (!), you should
    be able to manage it. If things are different for your setup (quite
    likely, unfortunately), then some understanding will be needed to figure
    out how to keep on track...


    Be sure to do it all from a root shell, not via individual sudo
    calls btw, some of the commands need to be in the same shell as
    previous ones, and sudo breaks that.

    If you log in to the pi as "pi", then issue commands prefixed with "sudo"
    so they run as root (administrator), each command runs in its own "shell", which terminates when the command completes. This means the effects of
    some commands don't persist from one call to another, e.g.:

    $ sudo pwd
    /home/ian

    $ sudo cd /tmp

    $ sudo pwd
    /home/ian ## pwd not changed!


    If you log in as "root", or get a root shell by calling "sudo bash",
    things work as expected:

    $ sudo bash

    # pwd
    /home/ian

    # cd /tmp

    # pwd
    /tmp


    (Note the convention of using "$" to indicate commands that are executed
    as a normal user, and '#' for those executed as root. On sane systems,
    this reflects the shell prompt).


    --
    Ian

    "Tamahome!!!" - "Miaka!!!"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Bob Latham@3:770/3 to ${send-direct-email-to-news1021-at- on Mon Sep 18 09:44:36 2023
    In article <slrnugg2jt.vum.${send-direct-email-to-news1021-at-jusme-dot-com-if@vm46.home.jusme.com>,
    Ian <${send-direct-email-to-news1021-at-jusme-dot-com-if-you-must}@jusme.com> wrote:
    On 2023-09-17, Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:

    Oh dear. I have zero understanding of that. I'm not going to
    manage this am I?

    [Snip]

    If you log in to the pi as "pi", then issue commands prefixed with
    "sudo" so they run as root (administrator), each command runs in
    its own "shell", which terminates when the command completes. This
    means the effects of some commands don't persist from one call to
    another, e.g.:

    [Snip]

    (Note the convention of using "$" to indicate commands that are
    executed as a normal user, and '#' for those executed as root. On
    sane systems, this reflects the shell prompt).

    Ian, fantastic post. Such a lot explained.

    Thank you so much.

    Bob.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Mrtn on Mon Sep 18 10:15:38 2023
    On 17/09/2023 18:11, Mrtn wrote:
    Since the horse already left the stable, you can put all this in the afterburner.

    What a wonderful mixed metaphor..
    I smell a rat.
    I feel it in the air.
    We must nip it in the bud...
    --
    It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled. Mark Twain

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Bob Latham on Mon Sep 18 10:22:30 2023
    On 17/09/2023 21:02, Bob Latham wrote:
    In article <slrnugegu8.vum.${send-direct-email-to-news1021-at-jusme-dot-com-if@vm46.home.jusme.com>,
    Ian <${send-direct-email-to-news1021-at-jusme-dot-com-if-you-must}@jusme.com> wrote:
    On 2023-09-17, Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:

    I'll have another go tomorrow.

    Good luck!

    Be sure to do it all from a root shell, not via individual sudo
    calls btw, some of the commands need to be in the same shell as
    previous ones, and sudo breaks that.

    Oh dear. I have zero understanding of that. I'm not going to manage
    this am I?

    Bob.


    Yes you are. One step at a time.

    There is a super user account that can do everything. It's called root.
    There are two easy ways you can get to 'be root'

    One is 'sudo bash', and the other is 'su -'

    Both will ask for a password - in the first case it will be yours, in
    the second case it will be root's.

    Root doesn't come with a password set by default, so the first thing you
    need to do is to give it one...

    'sudo passwd' will ask for YOUR password, then ask you to type in one
    for root, twice. To make sure of whatever.

    Then 'su - ' will work, every time.

    One of the first things I do is set a root password, because I hate
    using sudo when I have a lot of configuration work to do.


    --
    It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled. Mark Twain

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Chris Elvidge@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Mon Sep 18 10:28:02 2023
    On 18/09/2023 10:22, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 17/09/2023 21:02, Bob Latham wrote:
    In article
    <slrnugegu8.vum.${send-direct-email-to-news1021-at-jusme-dot-com-if@vm46.home.jusme.com>,

    Ian
    <${send-direct-email-to-news1021-at-jusme-dot-com-if-you-must}@jusme.com>
    wrote:
    On 2023-09-17, Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:

    I'll have another go tomorrow.

    Good luck!

    Be sure to do it all from a root shell, not via individual sudo
    calls btw, some of the commands need to be in the same shell as
    previous ones, and sudo breaks that.

    Oh dear. I have zero understanding of that. I'm not going to manage
    this am I?

    Bob.


    Yes you are. One step at a time.

    There is a super user account that can do everything. It's called root.
    There are two easy ways you can get to 'be root'

    One is 'sudo bash', and the other is 'su -'

    'sudo -i' always works for me.


    Both will ask for a password - in the first case it will be yours, in
    the second case it will be root's.

    Root doesn't come with a password set by default, so the first thing you
    need to do is to give it one...

    'sudo passwd' will ask for YOUR password, then ask you to type in one
    for root, twice. To make sure of whatever.

    Then 'su - ' will work, every time.

    One of the first things I do is set a root password, because I hate
    using sudo when I have a lot of configuration work to do.





    --
    Chris Elvidge, England
    FIVE DAYS IS NOT TOO LONG TO WAIT FOR A GUN

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Martin Gregorie on Mon Sep 18 10:46:22 2023
    On 17/09/2023 23:54, Martin Gregorie wrote:
    Using the 'apropos' and 'man' commands is the fastest way I know of of
    finding a standard issue Linux program that will do what you need it to
    do and finding out how to use it,

    I would argue it is the slowest.

    It's like reading the whole workshop manual of your new car to find out
    where the button is to open the fuel flap.

    One of the worst features of both Unix and Linux has always been
    documentation

    The first time we got a SUN server equipped with system V unix, and
    discovered that LPR had gone, and we have no way to make it print to its parallel port, was such a nightmare for the company that I drove into
    town at lunchtime, and went to the university bookstore and paid £55 for
    a book on SUNS unix V, because it had one line of about 300 characters
    in it which was 'how you enable printing on a system V Unix parallel port'

    Today we have CUPS which hides all the ugliness. Just like we have
    window managers to hide all the ugliness of X windows.

    These days I never use man at all. If I can't remember the command
    syntax I google it and chances are someone else has documented a crib
    that does what I need it to do.

    Like I ripped a CD onto my server and all the song title filenames came
    with underscores instead of spaces.

    Try invoking 'apropos spaces' .

    But googling 'change underscores to spaces in linux file names' got me
    three lines of bash that simply WORKED

    The problem is 'man' tells you how the command works in enough detail to warrant suicide.

    It doesn't tell you whether or not the command will, in the end perform
    the task you want.

    Like my problem was how to get my Pi to look like an ethernet device
    when plugged into a host computer, set that interface to a static
    address and then issue DHCP data to the host computer.

    It is not immediately obvious that 'dnsmasq' has anything to do with
    DHCP at all, or that on a Pi you have to add a magic spell to a file in
    the boot partition to enable the 'I am really an ethernet device' option.

    The great thing about the web is that someone somewhere has most
    probably done it all before, and if they haven't, and you have to puzzle
    it out, then documenting it yourself is a kind thing to do for the next
    poor sucker.

    The greatest frustration I had working with Apple OS/X was that no one documented anything. The attitude was 'reinstall OS/X. If it doesn't
    work then it cant be done'

    Linux and unix documentation has always been command based rather than
    task based. And unless you have someone in your company who reads
    through and memorises every single command and its syntax, knowing which command to use is always the problem before you even get to work out the syntax.




    --
    “I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most
    obvious truth if it be such as would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which
    they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives.”

    ― Leo Tolstoy

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Bob Latham on Mon Sep 18 10:54:06 2023
    On 18/09/2023 08:50, Bob Latham wrote:
    In article <ue8042$il0u$1@dont-email.me>,
    Martin Gregorie <martin@mydomain.invalid> wrote:
    Now you know how to mount a disk, you need to know how to find
    Linux commands that can help you do what you want to do with the
    RPi. For the rest of this info to work, you need to know how to
    login as the default user AND how to log in as root:

    1 the 'man name' command shows you a page (which can be very long)
    that tells you what 'name' does and how to use it, Name can be
    anything from a command to a Linux system call or function.

    2 the "apropos 'text' command shows you a list of commands whose
    manual pages have 'text' in their first line of their manual
    pages.

    3 Using the 'apropos' and 'man' commands is the fastest way I know
    of of finding a standard issue Linux program that will do what
    you need it to do and finding out how to use it,

    4 If you like reading books rather than screens, consider getting a
    copy of "UNIX in a Nutshell" or "Linux in a Nutshell" - both are
    concise references to the way UNIX/Linux works and how to use it.

    There's also "Unix Systems Programming for SVR4" which, although
    quite old now, is still a useful guide to writing programs and
    applications in C.

    Thank you for that information. Scary stuff. I've done what I've done
    so far by googling for answers and a little experimenting. I'm
    neither clever nor an academic.

    I wanted to learn how to write code for tcpip comms for another
    platform, I was advised to get a book called "Unix Network
    Programming". It's a thick book and cost a lot of money. I got to
    about page 3 before I was out of my depth and beyond rescue. That's
    why I have not got any linux books.


    LOL. Don't ever pick up a book on Philosophy. I think it was
    Wittgenstein who said 'If you have not bought a book on philosophy, got
    as far as page 3, and then immediately thrown it into a corner of the
    room. you have no aptitude for philosophy'

    I too have ceased buying Unix and linux books - the Web is by far the
    quickest way, or asking here.

    In general you can learn far more my grabbing 'a simple TCP/IP client
    for Linux' as source code, compiling and debugging it than a dozen books
    will teach you.

    Just keep muddling along and be grateful that these days you can buy a
    fully operational multi user multitasking computer that will run a full
    linux distro for £15 when back in the day it was nearer £15,000...

    --
    Karl Marx said religion is the opium of the people.
    But Marxism is the crack cocaine.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Bob Latham@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Mon Sep 18 11:04:54 2023
    In article <ue94sn$1mbio$10@dont-email.me>,
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    Yes you are. One step at a time.

    There is a super user account that can do everything. It's called
    root. There are two easy ways you can get to 'be root'

    One is 'sudo bash', and the other is 'su -'

    Both will ask for a password - in the first case it will be yours,
    in the second case it will be root's.

    Root doesn't come with a password set by default, so the first
    thing you need to do is to give it one...

    'sudo passwd' will ask for YOUR password, then ask you to type in
    one for root, twice. To make sure of whatever.

    Then 'su - ' will work, every time.

    One of the first things I do is set a root password, because I hate
    using sudo when I have a lot of configuration work to do.

    Brilliant and helpful post. I'm doing well today. So many good
    teachers generous with their time.

    Thanks.

    Bob.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Pancho@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Mon Sep 18 11:05:38 2023
    On 18/09/2023 10:54, The Natural Philosopher wrote:


    LOL. Don't ever pick up a book on Philosophy. I think it was
    Wittgenstein who said 'If you have not bought a book on philosophy, got
    as far as page 3, and then immediately thrown it into a corner of the
    room. you have no aptitude for philosophy'

    I too have ceased buying Unix and linux books - the Web is by far the quickest way, or asking here.

    In general you can learn far more my grabbing 'a simple TCP/IP client
    for Linux' as source code, compiling and debugging it than a dozen books
    will teach you.

    Just keep muddling along and be grateful that these days you can buy a
    fully operational multi user multitasking computer that will run a full
    linux distro for £15 when back in the day it was nearer £15,000...


    It was never £15,000. Back in 1992 a reasonable PC cost about £2000.

    Prior to Linux, late 80s, Xenix ran impressively on a 386. The writing
    was on the wall for minis.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Bob Latham on Mon Sep 18 11:06:48 2023
    On 18/09/2023 09:00, Bob Latham wrote:
    In article <650786bd@news.ausics.net>,
    Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote:

    Using Tar as suggested is one option. If you still want to use raw
    image files where the partitioning is already done for you, then
    what I've done for that is create a blank disk image file of the
    size I want (using dd reading from /dev/zero), then partition that
    and copy over the system files before writing that image to a real
    SD card.

    I think I understand the principle there (just), but dear me.
    What is dd?

    I think it stands for 'direct disk' Unix was written in the days long
    before even a CRT terminal was common and so its commands were
    deliberately short.

    What it does is ignore the niceties of partitions and files and just
    copy a disk sector by sector into a file or vice versa. Conventionally
    the files are *.img extensions and, if copied back onto a fresh disk (or
    SD card) will recreate not only the files, but the partitions
    informations was well (and in the case of Intel machines, the boot
    sector as well)


    What is /dev/zero is that a drive?


    It is a pseudo file, which is infinitely long and contains an infinite
    source of binary zeroes.

    Whatever you do to it, how ever many characters you read from it, they
    will all always be zero.

    Unix tried to make everything look like a file, so this is a special
    file that looks like a file, acts like a file but contains no data, or
    if you prefer an infinite amount of data guaranteed to be 0.

    There is another pseudo file called /dev/null, which is an infinite sink
    of data. A write only file. If you have a program that insists on
    chattering output to you that yo really don't care about you can
    'redirect' its output to /dev/null

    If only such a thing existed for my Australian cousin....

    ...
    No idea how to create a partition table. Wouldn't know where to start.

    There is a command called 'parted' (PARTitionEDitor) that allows you to
    do exactly that.
    Thanks for trying to help me but you're way above my level.

    No, he is not. Only just above your level. One step and a time


    --
    Those who want slavery should have the grace to name it by its proper
    name. They must face the full meaning of that which they are advocating
    or condoning; the full, exact, specific meaning of collectivism, of its
    logical implications, of the principles upon which it is based, and of
    the ultimate consequences to which these principles will lead. They must
    face it, then decide whether this is what they want or not.

    Ayn Rand.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Bob Latham@3:770/3 to Chris Elvidge on Mon Sep 18 11:07:04 2023
    In article <ue9577$1mres$1@dont-email.me>,
    Chris Elvidge <chris@mshome.net> wrote:

    'sudo -i' always works for me.

    Thanks. I've seen that before in the distant past. Didn't understand
    why it might be different to just sudo.

    Bob.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Pancho on Mon Sep 18 11:22:08 2023
    On 18/09/2023 11:05, Pancho wrote:
    On 18/09/2023 10:54, The Natural Philosopher wrote:


    LOL. Don't ever pick up a book on Philosophy. I think it was
    Wittgenstein who said 'If you have not bought a book on philosophy,
    got as far as page 3, and then immediately thrown it into a corner of
    the room. you have no aptitude for philosophy'

    I too have ceased buying Unix and linux books - the Web is by far the
    quickest way, or asking here.

    In general you can learn far more my grabbing 'a simple TCP/IP client
    for Linux' as source code, compiling and debugging it than a dozen
    books will teach you.

    Just keep muddling along and be grateful that these days you can buy a
    fully operational multi user multitasking computer that will run a
    full linux distro for £15 when back in the day it was nearer £15,000...


    It was never £15,000. Back in 1992 a reasonable PC cost about £2000.

    Prior to Linux, late 80s, Xenix ran impressively on a 386. The writing
    was on the wall for minis.

    Back in the early 80s, you needed a PDP/11 to run Unix. They were about £15,000
    Or a VAX. They were a LOT more. The Internet ran on VAXes to start with.

    Xenix was much later . And it wasn't a whole lot of cop. The best 'PC
    Unix' was SCO and if you wanted BSD you bought a SUN SPARC, but that
    was long after the PDP era.

    The fact that a PI Zero is probably a better computer than a VAX was
    back in the day is - astonishing.

    All it lacks is a hard drive.


    --
    Those who want slavery should have the grace to name it by its proper
    name. They must face the full meaning of that which they are advocating
    or condoning; the full, exact, specific meaning of collectivism, of its
    logical implications, of the principles upon which it is based, and of
    the ultimate consequences to which these principles will lead. They must
    face it, then decide whether this is what they want or not.

    Ayn Rand.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Chris Elvidge@3:770/3 to Bob Latham on Mon Sep 18 11:23:08 2023
    On 18/09/2023 11:07, Bob Latham wrote:
    In article <ue9577$1mres$1@dont-email.me>,
    Chris Elvidge <chris@mshome.net> wrote:

    'sudo -i' always works for me.

    Thanks. I've seen that before in the distant past. Didn't understand
    why it might be different to just sudo.

    Bob.


    '-i' forces a login shell, as in runs target user's .login,
    .bash_profile or .profile, and .bashrc
    see: 'man sudo'


    --
    Chris Elvidge, England
    I WILL NOT SELL MIRACLE CURES

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Chris Elvidge@3:770/3 to R.Wieser on Mon Sep 18 11:34:14 2023
    On 18/09/2023 07:42, R.Wieser wrote:
    Computer Nerd Kev (and others),

    I've also had success with simply creating a partition table
    with blank space at the end of an SD card.

    I've got the same problem as the OP, and also thought of the above as the simpelest solution to the problem.

    Question : I'm using an OS image (bullseye, bullseye lite) as can be downloaded here :

    https://www.raspberrypi.com/software/operating-systems/

    Is there a possibility to edit it in such a way that it will automatically reserve some space (dummy partition or otherwise) at the end of the SD card
    ?

    Regards,
    Rudy Wieser



    On a 'new' copy on an SD card, /boot/cmdline.txt finishes with: init=/usr/lib/raspberrypi-sys-mods/firstboot

    If you either remove that bit (not recommended), or edit /usr/lib/raspberrypi-sys-mods/firstboot to remove (or comment out) the
    bulk of the 'do_resize' function (add return just after the definition)
    before you start the Pi for the first time, you may be lucky.
    You can use (g)parted to resize the partition manually (obviously on
    another machine).


    --
    Chris Elvidge, England
    I WILL NOT SELL MIRACLE CURES

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Bob Latham@3:770/3 to Bob Latham on Mon Sep 18 12:14:46 2023
    In article <5ae5599655bob@sick-of-spam.invalid>,
    Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:
    In article <slrnugdpsj.vum.${send-direct-email-to-news1021-at-jusme-dot-com-if@vm46.home.jusme.com>,
    Ian <${send-direct-email-to-news1021-at-jusme-dot-com-if-you-must}@jusme.com> wrote:

    1. Clone the SD card you're trying to shrink (using dd,
    Win32DiskImager or whatever you normally use to read/write SD
    card images), just in case.

    Right. I have got quite a bit further but stumped now. :-)

    I typed sudo passwd <ret>

    It asked for a new password x2

    Never asked for existing password for pi user oddly.

    after that su - worked fine.


    On stage 3. mkdir /mnt/x
    I got: Cannot create directory, file exists.
    I presume that is from my attempts yesterday.
    How would I remove that file/directory or whatever it is?

    Anyway I ignored it and persisted with
    mount /dev/sda2 /mnt/x

    seemed to work, no error.

    Stage 4.
    cd /mnt/x worked fine.
    tar -czf ~/xxx.tar.gz .
    this went away for more than 18 minutes, I thought it had crashed.
    Got 22 lines of this...

    tar: ./var/lib/samba/private/msg.sock/ nnnnn socket ignored.

    eventually machine came back.

    stage 5

    cd
    umount /mnt/x

    seemed to go fine.


    stage 6
    fdisk /dev/sda2

    I ASSUME sda2 is correct ???

    P

    Lots of text and red writing about 'ext4' signatures...

    Then a table very similar to your example but after the line:
    Disk identifier: 0x9b19dd1d

    I did not get the 3 lines

    Device Boot start End sectors size Id Type
    /dev...
    /dev...

    Just didn't happen.

    Help !


    Thanks.

    Bob.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Pancho@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Mon Sep 18 12:17:38 2023
    On 18/09/2023 11:22, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 18/09/2023 11:05, Pancho wrote:
    On 18/09/2023 10:54, The Natural Philosopher wrote:


    LOL. Don't ever pick up a book on Philosophy. I think it was
    Wittgenstein who said 'If you have not bought a book on philosophy,
    got as far as page 3, and then immediately thrown it into a corner of
    the room. you have no aptitude for philosophy'

    I too have ceased buying Unix and linux books - the Web is by far the
    quickest way, or asking here.

    In general you can learn far more my grabbing 'a simple TCP/IP client
    for Linux' as source code, compiling and debugging it than a dozen
    books will teach you.

    Just keep muddling along and be grateful that these days you can buy
    a fully operational multi user multitasking computer that will run a
    full linux distro for £15 when back in the day it was nearer £15,000... >>>

    It was never £15,000. Back in 1992 a reasonable PC cost about £2000.

    Prior to Linux, late 80s, Xenix ran impressively on a 386. The writing
    was on the wall for minis.

    Back in the early 80s, you needed a PDP/11 to run Unix. They were about £15,000
    Or a VAX. They were a LOT more. The Internet ran on VAXes to start with.


    OK, I know you meant Unix, but you said Linux.

    Xenix was much later . And it wasn't a whole lot of cop. The best 'PC
    Unix' was SCO  and if you wanted BSD you bought a SUN SPARC, but that
    was long after the PDP era.


    I can't remember if it was SCO or Xenix, I just remember being impressed
    how quick a 386 PC was compared to minis.

    The fact that a PI Zero is probably a better computer than a VAX was
    back in the day is - astonishing.


    The rPi3 is hugely faster, than a VAX 11/780, probably the rPi Zero too. Somewhere between 10-20 times as fast running old software, to a 1000
    times as fast if you allow for modern software.

    Back in the late 1980s, the company I worked for bankrupted themselves
    by trying to develop an Ingress SQL database driven multiuser system on
    VAX minis. The hardware just wasn't powerful enough. This was around the
    time of the MicroVAX 2000. There was discussion of giving every user
    their own MicroVax 2000, which sounded OK to me at the time, but in
    hindsight I don't know how they would have distributed the central
    database access.

    Anyway, I left the company, before it went tits up.

    All it lacks is a hard drive.


    Is the SD card, not a hard drive?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Mon Sep 18 12:27:22 2023
    On Mon, 18 Sep 2023 10:46:23 +0100
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 17/09/2023 23:54, Martin Gregorie wrote:
    Using the 'apropos' and 'man' commands is the fastest way I know of of
    finding a standard issue Linux program that will do what you need it
    to do and finding out how to use it,

    I would argue it is the slowest.

    It's like reading the whole workshop manual of your new car to find out
    where the button is to open the fuel flap.

    Indeed the man pages are reference material, on a good system they
    are complete and correct and occupy a similar position to the datasheet for
    an IC - essential when you need the precise detail.

    They are not and never were intended to be tutorials any more than
    a complete set of TTL datasheets will tell you which chips to use and how
    to connect them in order to construct a clock.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to Pancho on Mon Sep 18 12:59:30 2023
    On Mon, 18 Sep 2023 12:17:39 +0100
    Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> wrote:

    I can't remember if it was SCO or Xenix, I just remember being impressed
    how quick a 386 PC was compared to minis.

    SCO bought Xenix from Microsoft, later the product became SCO Unix after the SysVR4 changes were merged into it.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ian@3:770/3 to Bob Latham on Mon Sep 18 11:24:44 2023
    On 2023-09-18, Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:

    On stage 3. mkdir /mnt/x
    I got: Cannot create directory, file exists.
    I presume that is from my attempts yesterday.
    How would I remove that file/directory or whatever it is?

    Yes, probably.

    rmdir /mnt/x would work (if it's still empty, which it should be),
    but that's not necessary.

    Anyway I ignored it and persisted with
    mount /dev/sda2 /mnt/x

    seemed to work, no error.

    Stage 4.
    cd /mnt/x worked fine.
    tar -czf ~/xxx.tar.gz .
    this went away for more than 18 minutes, I thought it had crashed.
    Got 22 lines of this...

    tar: ./var/lib/samba/private/msg.sock/ nnnnn socket ignored.

    That's fine. Sockets are what running processes use to talk to each
    other, they live in the filesystem so they can be found. It makes
    no sense to "archive" them, so they're ignored by tar.


    eventually machine came back.

    Yes, these things take time...

    stage 6
    fdisk /dev/sda2

    I ASSUME sda2 is correct ???

    It should be /dev/sda for your environment.

    /dev/sda is the whole disc. /dev/sda1 is the first partition (a subset
    of the whole disc), /dev/sda2 the second partition. fdisk is about
    manipulating partitions, so needs to work on the whole disc.
    (The partition table is in the first sector/block of the disc)


    --
    Ian

    "Tamahome!!!" - "Miaka!!!"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Mon Sep 18 12:57:32 2023
    On Mon, 18 Sep 2023 11:06:48 +0100
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 18/09/2023 09:00, Bob Latham wrote:

    I think I understand the principle there (just), but dear me.
    What is dd?

    I think it stands for 'direct disk' Unix was written in the days long
    before even a CRT terminal was common and so its commands were
    deliberately short.

    It's far more obscure than that :)

    The dd name was a joke reference to the IBM JCL command DD (data definition). Originally dd was the universal data format conversion tool capable of converting between ASCII and EBCDIC, adjusting parity,
    converting case, swapping bytes (endian conversion) and dealing with moving data between block structured devices/files with different block sizes performing block padding as needs be.

    It can still do all of this (check the conv section of man dd)
    should you ever find a need to do *any* of it.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Bob Latham@3:770/3 to ${send-direct-email-to-news1021-at- on Mon Sep 18 13:10:06 2023
    In article <slrnuggcrs.vum.${send-direct-email-to-news1021-at-jusme-dot-com-if@vm46.home.jusme.com>,
    Ian <${send-direct-email-to-news1021-at-jusme-dot-com-if-you-must}@jusme.com> wrote:

    It should be /dev/sda for your environment.

    /dev/sda is the whole disc. /dev/sda1 is the first partition (a
    subset of the whole disc), /dev/sda2 the second partition. fdisk is
    about manipulating partitions, so needs to work on the whole disc.
    (The partition table is in the first sector/block of the disc)

    Okay thanks Ian.

    I've now got passed stage 10 and looking at 11.

    Lots of questions now...

    Do I need to create a script from your text or can I just copy and
    paste line by line?

    How do I change where to put the new image?

    Any suggestions where to put it?

    Can I just copy out the image using samba with something I
    understand. :-)

    How do I delete the tarfile and where is it?

    Why did we use a tarfile, was it just to reduce the storage size?

    Cheers,

    Bob.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to Pancho on Mon Sep 18 12:18:16 2023
    On Mon, 18 Sep 2023 11:05:38 +0100
    Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> wrote:

    Prior to Linux, late 80s, Xenix ran impressively on a 386. The writing
    was on the wall for minis.

    I used to run Xenix on a 15MHz 80286 system, it worked fine.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to Bob Latham on Mon Sep 18 13:01:34 2023
    On Mon, 18 Sep 2023 12:14:47 +0100
    Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:

    I typed sudo passwd <ret>

    It asked for a new password x2

    Never asked for existing password for pi user oddly.

    There's some authorisation caching in sudo, so if you have recently given your password for a sudo command sudo remembers this and doesn't ask again.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Mon Sep 18 13:27:44 2023
    On 18/09/2023 12:59, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Sep 2023 12:17:39 +0100
    Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> wrote:

    I can't remember if it was SCO or Xenix, I just remember being impressed
    how quick a 386 PC was compared to minis.

    SCO bought Xenix from Microsoft, later the product became SCO Unix after the SysVR4 changes were merged into it.

    Ah. My bad, I was thinking of Venix, not Xenix. Venix was a heap of crap
    but would run on a 286...just about

    Sco Unix was a damned good platform for a small company 'minicomputer'

    It even had TCP/IP ... eventually!

    --
    “It is hard to imagine a more stupid decision or more dangerous way of
    making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people
    who pay no price for being wrong.”

    Thomas Sowell

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Pancho on Mon Sep 18 13:25:42 2023
    On 18/09/2023 12:17, Pancho wrote:
    On 18/09/2023 11:22, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 18/09/2023 11:05, Pancho wrote:
    On 18/09/2023 10:54, The Natural Philosopher wrote:


    LOL. Don't ever pick up a book on Philosophy. I think it was
    Wittgenstein who said 'If you have not bought a book on philosophy,
    got as far as page 3, and then immediately thrown it into a corner
    of the room. you have no aptitude for philosophy'

    I too have ceased buying Unix and linux books - the Web is by far
    the quickest way, or asking here.

    In general you can learn far more my grabbing 'a simple TCP/IP
    client for Linux' as source code, compiling and debugging it than a
    dozen books will teach you.

    Just keep muddling along and be grateful that these days you can buy
    a fully operational multi user multitasking computer that will run a
    full linux distro for £15 when back in the day it was nearer £15,000... >>>>

    It was never £15,000. Back in 1992 a reasonable PC cost about £2000.

    Prior to Linux, late 80s, Xenix ran impressively on a 386. The
    writing was on the wall for minis.

    Back in the early 80s, you needed a PDP/11 to run Unix. They were
    about £15,000
    Or a VAX. They were a LOT more. The Internet ran on VAXes to start with.


    OK, I know you meant Unix, but you said Linux.

    Xenix was much later . And it wasn't a whole lot of cop. The best 'PC
    Unix' was SCO  and if you wanted BSD you bought a SUN SPARC, but that
    was long after the PDP era.


    I can't remember if it was SCO or Xenix, I just remember being impressed
    how quick a 386 PC was compared to minis.

    The fact that a PI Zero is probably a better computer than a VAX was
    back in the day is - astonishing.


    The rPi3 is hugely faster, than a VAX 11/780, probably the rPi Zero too. Somewhere between 10-20 times as fast running old software, to a 1000
    times as fast if you allow for modern software.

    Back in the late 1980s, the company I worked for bankrupted themselves
    by trying to develop an Ingress SQL database driven multiuser system on
    VAX minis. The hardware just wasn't powerful enough. This was around the
    time of the MicroVAX 2000. There was discussion of giving every user
    their own MicroVax 2000, which sounded OK to me at the time, but in
    hindsight I don't know how they would have distributed the central
    database access.

    Anyway, I left the company, before it went tits up.

    All it lacks is a hard drive.


    Is the SD card, not a hard drive?

    I'd say it was quite an easy drive, but it isn't really suitable for the
    sorts of crap we used to put on an PDP/11. That drive was spinning all
    day with half a dozen of us doing stuff on it


    --
    “It is hard to imagine a more stupid decision or more dangerous way of
    making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people
    who pay no price for being wrong.”

    Thomas Sowell

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Bob Latham on Mon Sep 18 13:23:30 2023
    On 18/09/2023 12:14, Bob Latham wrote:
    In article <5ae5599655bob@sick-of-spam.invalid>,
    Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:
    In article
    <slrnugdpsj.vum.${send-direct-email-to-news1021-at-jusme-dot-com-if@vm46.home.jusme.com>,
    Ian
    <${send-direct-email-to-news1021-at-jusme-dot-com-if-you-must}@jusme.com> wrote:

    1. Clone the SD card you're trying to shrink (using dd,
    Win32DiskImager or whatever you normally use to read/write SD
    card images), just in case.

    Right. I have got quite a bit further but stumped now. :-)

    I typed sudo passwd <ret>

    It asked for a new password x2

    Never asked for existing password for pi user oddly.


    Sudo sorta remembers you for a time. Very confusing. I dont remember it
    douing that tears ago..

    after that su - worked fine.


    On stage 3. mkdir /mnt/x
    I got: Cannot create directory, file exists.
    I presume that is from my attempts yesterday.
    How would I remove that file/directory or whatever it is?

    rmdir /mnt/x

    Anyway I ignored it and persisted with
    mount /dev/sda2 /mnt/x

    seemed to work, no error.

    Stage 4.
    cd /mnt/x worked fine.
    tar -czf ~/xxx.tar.gz .
    this went away for more than 18 minutes, I thought it had crashed.

    next time use cvzf to get it to tell you what its doing.

    Got 22 lines of this...

    tar: ./var/lib/samba/private/msg.sock/ nnnnn socket ignored.

    I wonder why id did that? patently that is not something worth backing
    up, but nevertheless...

    eventually machine came back.

    stage 5

    cd
    umount /mnt/x

    seemed to go fine.

    looks OK


    stage 6
    fdisk /dev/sda2



    I ASSUME sda2 is correct ???

    No. partititons are applied to the WHOLE disk which is /dev/sda


    so fdisk /dev/sda

    https://tldp.org/HOWTO/Partition/fdisk_partitioning.html

    P

    Lots of text and red writing about 'ext4' signatures...

    Then a table very similar to your example but after the line:
    Disk identifier: 0x9b19dd1d

    I did not get the 3 lines

    Device Boot start End sectors size Id Type
    /dev...
    /dev...

    Just didn't happen.

    Help !


    Ok just one misstep, but defiinitely three steps forward

    You remind me of just how weird and crappy Unix at the command line
    seemed, back when I first had to do stuff with it


    Thanks.

    Bob.


    --
    A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on
    its shoes.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Mon Sep 18 13:30:14 2023
    On 18/09/2023 12:57, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Sep 2023 11:06:48 +0100
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 18/09/2023 09:00, Bob Latham wrote:

    I think I understand the principle there (just), but dear me.
    What is dd?

    I think it stands for 'direct disk' Unix was written in the days long
    before even a CRT terminal was common and so its commands were
    deliberately short.

    It's far more obscure than that :)

    The dd name was a joke reference to the IBM JCL command DD (data definition). Originally dd was the universal data format conversion tool capable of converting between ASCII and EBCDIC, adjusting parity,
    converting case, swapping bytes (endian conversion) and dealing with moving data between block structured devices/files with different block sizes performing block padding as needs be.

    It can still do all of this (check the conv section of man dd)
    should you ever find a need to do *any* of it.

    *shudder*. I find myself unaccountably smiling at your post. It brings
    back memories of really old fashioned computer days.


    --
    “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false face for the
    urge to rule it.”
    – H. L. Mencken

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Chris Elvidge@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Mon Sep 18 13:39:34 2023
    On 18/09/2023 13:27, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 18/09/2023 12:59, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Sep 2023 12:17:39 +0100
    Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> wrote:

    I can't remember if it was SCO or Xenix, I just remember being impressed >>> how quick a 386 PC was compared to minis.

    SCO bought Xenix from Microsoft, later the product became SCO Unix
    after the SysVR4 changes were merged into it.

    Ah. My bad, I was thinking of Venix, not Xenix. Venix was a heap of crap
    but would run on a 286...just about

    Sco Unix was a damned good platform for a small company 'minicomputer'

    It even had TCP/IP ... eventually!


    We had it running on one of the first 486s. Database for hospitals
    around the region (St Barts)


    --
    Chris Elvidge, England
    TEACHER IS NOT A LEPER

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ian@3:770/3 to Bob Latham on Mon Sep 18 12:43:00 2023
    On 2023-09-18, Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:
    I've now got passed stage 10 and looking at 11.

    Lots of questions now...

    Do I need to create a script from your text or can I just copy and
    paste line by line?

    You can just copy/paste the lines. When you paste the "echo" one check
    that the reported number of MB is reasonable, and that the number of
    sectors being copied is bigger than the last sector shown, before
    proceeding to the 'dd'


    How do I change where to put the new image?

    Any suggestions where to put it?

    Can I just copy out the image using samba with something I
    understand. :-)

    The file name after the "| gzip >" is where the target image will go.
    It can be any file path, so if you have external filestore mounted with
    samba it can go there directly. There should be enough space on the live
    SD card if you remove the tarfile first, the copy it off wherever you
    need it.


    How do I delete the tarfile and where is it?

    The tarfile is ~/xxx.tar.gz, you can remove it with:

    # rm ~/xxx.tar.gz

    "~/" is a shortcut for your "home directory". As root, this is /root,
    so the file is actually /root/xxx.tar.gz. The same applies to the final
    image: "~/newcard.img.gz" is /root/newcard.img.gz.


    Why did we use a tarfile, was it just to reduce the storage size?

    The tarfile was used to hold a copy of the OS files while you shrunk
    the parition. Think of it as zipping up the contents of a disc before
    replacing it with a new one, then restoring the content from the zipfile.


    Final note, I "gzip" (compress) the final image as this saves a lot of
    space (8GB down to 2.3GB in my case). You'll need to uncompress it
    before writing it to a new card with Win32DiskImager. 7zip can do this
    on Windows, if that's how you do it. If you don't want it compressed
    (and have the space), you can omit the gzip from the last command:

    # dd if=/dev/sdc bs=1048576 count=${n_mb} > ~/newcard.img


    To pick up on the "dd" thread, that command reads from the input file
    (if=...), in blocks of 1MB (bs=...) and copies ${n_mb} blocks (count=...).
    It send the output to "stdout" (nominally the terminal), but we pipe
    this through gzip to compress it (| gzip", and then direct the output of
    gzip to the target file (> ~/newcard.img).


    --
    Ian

    "Tamahome!!!" - "Miaka!!!"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From R.Wieser@3:770/3 to All on Mon Sep 18 14:43:28 2023
    Chris,

    You can use (g)parted to resize the partition manually (obviously on
    another machine).

    I was/am trying to evade multi-step solutions. Especially ones that cannot
    be automated.

    Regards,
    Rudy Wieser

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Mon Sep 18 14:04:24 2023
    On Mon, 18 Sep 2023 13:27:44 +0100
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    Sco Unix was a damned good platform for a small company 'minicomputer'

    It even had TCP/IP ... eventually!

    SCO Xenix had MICNET, a LAN based on UUCP over directly connected serial ports. With it running you could cd .. from / and find a directory of machines on the network. It wasn't fast or standard but it worked.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Chris Elvidge on Mon Sep 18 14:31:20 2023
    On 18/09/2023 13:39, Chris Elvidge wrote:
    On 18/09/2023 13:27, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 18/09/2023 12:59, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Sep 2023 12:17:39 +0100
    Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> wrote:

    I can't remember if it was SCO or Xenix, I just remember being
    impressed
    how quick a 386 PC was compared to minis.

        SCO bought Xenix from Microsoft, later the product became SCO Unix >>> after the SysVR4 changes were merged into it.

    Ah. My bad, I was thinking of Venix, not Xenix. Venix was a heap of
    crap but would run on a 286...just about

    Sco Unix was a damned good platform for a small company 'minicomputer'

    It even had TCP/IP ... eventually!


    We had it running on one of the first 486s. Database for hospitals
    around the region (St Barts)


    There was a legal business that had it on a 386 running the while firm
    with about 25 screens on. Cost was a few hours a day to pop tapes in the backup. and a thousand quid support contract with the software authors .

    Then a board decision to put a PC on everyone's desk at about £1500 a
    DESK was made with an annual support contract of about £10,000

    --
    The higher up the mountainside
    The greener grows the grass.
    The higher up the monkey climbs
    The more he shows his arse.

    Traditional

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Mon Sep 18 14:47:50 2023
    On 18/09/2023 14:04, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Sep 2023 13:27:44 +0100
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    Sco Unix was a damned good platform for a small company 'minicomputer'

    It even had TCP/IP ... eventually!

    SCO Xenix had MICNET, a LAN based on UUCP over directly connected serial ports. With it running you could cd .. from / and find a directory of machines on the network. It wasn't fast or standard but it worked.

    Blimey. I missed THAT one.
    UUCP was something that I spent a large part of my life installing and
    setting up. It was, for a time, the only way to get "Internet" email in
    the UK

    --
    The New Left are the people they warned you about.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Martin Gregorie@3:770/3 to Bob Latham on Mon Sep 18 14:40:00 2023
    On Mon, 18 Sep 2023 08:50:44 +0100, Bob Latham wrote:

    In article <ue8042$il0u$1@dont-email.me>,
    Martin Gregorie <martin@mydomain.invalid> wrote:
    Now you know how to mount a disk, you need to know how to find Linux
    commands that can help you do what you want to do with the RPi. For the
    rest of this info to work, you need to know how to login as the default
    user AND how to log in as root:

    1 the 'man name' command shows you a page (which can be very long)
    that tells you what 'name' does and how to use it, Name can be
    anything from a command to a Linux system call or function.

    2 the "apropos 'text' command shows you a list of commands whose
    manual pages have 'text' in their first line of their manual pages.

    3 Using the 'apropos' and 'man' commands is the fastest way I know
    of of finding a standard issue Linux program that will do what you
    need it to do and finding out how to use it,

    4 If you like reading books rather than screens, consider getting a
    copy of "UNIX in a Nutshell" or "Linux in a Nutshell" - both are
    concise references to the way UNIX/Linux works and how to use it.

    There's also "Unix Systems Programming for SVR4" which, although
    quite old now, is still a useful guide to writing programs and
    applications in C.

    Thank you for that information. Scary stuff. I've done what I've done so
    far by googling for answers and a little experimenting. I'm neither
    clever nor an academic.

    I wanted to learn how to write code for tcpip comms for another
    platform, I was advised to get a book called "Unix Network Programming".
    It's a thick book and cost a lot of money. I got to about page 3 before
    I was out of my depth and beyond rescue. That's why I have not got any
    linux books.

    First question: can you write C (or C++ or Rust, ...) already?

    If not, I'd recommend the ANSI edition of "The C Programming Language" by Kernighan and Richie (They are the authors of C).

    "The Practise of Programming" by Kernighan and Pike" is also good to have:
    if you're starting to program because it describes how to write well laid
    out and documented C code that's easy for other programmers (including
    yourself in 10 years time) to read, understand and modify. A lot of what
    it says is directly applicable to other block structured languages such
    as Java, Algol 60, Algol 68, Pascal and even PL/I. It may even help you to write better programs in other languages such as Perl, Python, Fortran,
    COBOL and assemblers.

    And, if you find that you need tried and tested chunks of code to slot
    into some project you're developing, its worth knowing about both
    "Software Tools in Pascal" (Kernighan and Pike) and
    "Algorithms" (Sedgewick). The latter isn't cheap, but then good books
    about programming languages and algorithms seldom are. Both these provide runnable example code written in Pascal, which is easy to transcribe
    directly into C and/or Java (Personal experience) because it was written
    as a teaching language for use in Computer Science courses.


    --

    Martin | martin at
    Gregorie | gregorie dot org

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ian@3:770/3 to Bob Latham on Mon Sep 18 16:05:16 2023
    On 2023-09-18, Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:

    I strongly suspect my settings somewhere but the decompressed file
    isn't dramatically smaller than the original.

    Original = 3,805,184 KB
    new file = 3,411,968 KB

    I targeted getting down from 4GB to 3GB as more than 1GB was empty.

    Well done!

    If that's the compressed file size then it seems about right - there should
    be the same amount of content, just now it's in a smaller container.

    --
    Ian

    "Tamahome!!!" - "Miaka!!!"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Charlie Gibbs@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Mon Sep 18 16:11:28 2023
    On 2023-09-18, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 17/09/2023 18:11, Mrtn wrote:

    Since the horse already left the stable, you can put all this in the
    afterburner.

    What a wonderful mixed metaphor..
    I smell a rat.
    I feel it in the air.
    We must nip it in the bud...

    The Heinlein novel "Starman Jones" had a character who mixed metaphors
    with great aplomb. I remember sayings like "Let sleeping dogs bury
    their own dead," and "Let's strike while the iron is in the fire and
    let the bridges fall where they may!"

    --
    /~\ Charlie Gibbs | They offer a huge range of
    \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | world-class vulnerabilities
    X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | that only Microsoft can provide.
    / \ if you read it the right way. | -- druck <news@druck.org.uk>

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Charlie Gibbs@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Mon Sep 18 16:11:30 2023
    On 2023-09-18, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    These days I never use man at all. If I can't remember the command
    syntax I google it and chances are someone else has documented a crib
    that does what I need it to do.

    Like I ripped a CD onto my server and all the song title filenames came
    with underscores instead of spaces.

    Try invoking 'apropos spaces' .

    But googling 'change underscores to spaces in linux file names' got me
    three lines of bash that simply WORKED

    Nice man pages (e.g. rsync) contain a section labeled "EXAMPLES".
    Too bad they're few and far between.

    --
    /~\ Charlie Gibbs | They offer a huge range of
    \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | world-class vulnerabilities
    X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | that only Microsoft can provide.
    / \ if you read it the right way. | -- druck <news@druck.org.uk>

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Bob Latham@3:770/3 to ${send-direct-email-to-news1021-at- on Mon Sep 18 16:36:30 2023
    In article <slrnugghek.vum.${send-direct-email-to-news1021-at-jusme-dot-com-if@vm46.home.jusme.com>,
    Ian <${send-direct-email-to-news1021-at-jusme-dot-com-if-you-must}@jusme.com> wrote:

    [snip]


    The file name after the "| gzip >" is where the target image will
    go. It can be any file path, so if you have external filestore
    mounted with samba it can go there directly. There should be enough
    space on the live SD card if you remove the tarfile first, the copy
    it off wherever you need it.

    [snip]

    Thanks again to Ian and TNP and everyone who has helped me get there.
    I have now managed to get through the process and I have an output
    file. I need to test that file.

    I strongly suspect my settings somewhere but the decompressed file
    isn't dramatically smaller than the original.

    Original = 3,805,184 KB
    new file = 3,411,968 KB

    I targeted getting down from 4GB to 3GB as more than 1GB was empty.

    Cheers,

    Bob.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Charlie Gibbs@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Mon Sep 18 16:11:28 2023
    On 2023-09-18, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

    On Mon, 18 Sep 2023 11:06:48 +0100
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 18/09/2023 09:00, Bob Latham wrote:

    I think I understand the principle there (just), but dear me.
    What is dd?

    I think it stands for 'direct disk' Unix was written in the days long
    before even a CRT terminal was common and so its commands were
    deliberately short.

    It's far more obscure than that :)

    The dd name was a joke reference to the IBM JCL command DD (data definition). Originally dd was the universal data format conversion tool capable of converting between ASCII and EBCDIC, adjusting parity,
    converting case, swapping bytes (endian conversion) and dealing with moving data between block structured devices/files with different block sizes performing block padding as needs be.

    It can still do all of this (check the conv section of man dd)
    should you ever find a need to do *any* of it.

    Speaking of IBM ancestry, that sounds a bit like the IBM utility DEBE
    (Does Everything But Eat), which let you do a lot of the same things
    from a mainframe console. I ported a version of it to a couple of
    Univac mainframes. Lots of fun.

    --
    /~\ Charlie Gibbs | They offer a huge range of
    \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | world-class vulnerabilities
    X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | that only Microsoft can provide.
    / \ if you read it the right way. | -- druck <news@druck.org.uk>

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Charlie Gibbs on Mon Sep 18 17:18:10 2023
    On 18/09/2023 17:11, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
    On 2023-09-18, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    LOL. Don't ever pick up a book on Philosophy. I think it was
    Wittgenstein who said 'If you have not bought a book on philosophy, got
    as far as page 3, and then immediately thrown it into a corner of the
    room. you have no aptitude for philosophy'

    :-)

    I too have ceased buying Unix and linux books - the Web is by far the
    quickest way, or asking here.

    In general you can learn far more my grabbing 'a simple TCP/IP client
    for Linux' as source code, compiling and debugging it than a dozen books
    will teach you.

    Still, if you'd really like a written reference, it's hard to go wrong
    with Beej's Guide to Network Programming (https://beej.us/guide/bgnet/).
    I know it filled in a lot of blanks in my head when I started programming TCP/IP applications.


    The sneaking suspicion I have had all my life since I first enocountered
    it, that BSD 'sockets' were a truly awful way to interact with a network
    device was borne out in my attempts to get networking working on the
    PICO with the LWIP library. Badly documented it may have been, but the
    overall ideas were a lot easier to get to grips with.



    --
    “There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn’t true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.”

    —Soren Kierkegaard

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Mon Sep 18 17:34:02 2023
    On Mon, 18 Sep 2023 17:18:10 +0100
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    The sneaking suspicion I have had all my life since I first enocountered
    it, that BSD 'sockets' were a truly awful way to interact with a network device

    Look into System V streams if you want to see a truly awful way to interact with a network device.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From druck@3:770/3 to Ian on Mon Sep 18 20:54:38 2023
    On 18/09/2023 09:29, Ian wrote:
    If you log in as "root", or get a root shell by calling "sudo bash",
    things work as expected:

    sudo -i

    is quicker to type.

    ---druck

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Mon Sep 18 20:35:34 2023
    On 18/09/2023 17:34, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Sep 2023 17:18:10 +0100
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    The sneaking suspicion I have had all my life since I first enocountered
    it, that BSD 'sockets' were a truly awful way to interact with a network
    device

    Look into System V streams if you want to see a truly awful way to interact with a network device.

    I did, once. :-)

    --
    Gun Control: The law that ensures that only criminals have guns.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Mon Sep 18 21:08:08 2023
    On Mon, 18 Sep 2023 20:35:34 +0100
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 18/09/2023 17:34, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Sep 2023 17:18:10 +0100
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    The sneaking suspicion I have had all my life since I first
    enocountered it, that BSD 'sockets' were a truly awful way to interact
    with a network device

    Look into System V streams if you want to see a truly awful way
    to interact with a network device.

    I did, once. :-)

    I had the misfortune of using it as transport for an early
    fault tolerant distributed database application. It was interesting.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Computer Nerd Kev@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Tue Sep 19 09:11:22 2023
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    The first time we got a SUN server equipped with system V unix, and discovered that LPR had gone, and we have no way to make it print to its parallel port, was such a nightmare for the company that I drove into
    town at lunchtime, and went to the university bookstore and paid ?55 for
    a book on SUNS unix V, because it had one line of about 300 characters
    in it which was 'how you enable printing on a system V Unix parallel port'

    Today we have CUPS which hides all the ugliness.

    Wow, I gave up on CUPS a few years ago when they changed things and
    I couldn't find any documentation on the web to explain how to make
    it work the way I had it before. Now I'm using lprng, which is also
    faster, although I'll admit that I'd have to check the docs again
    to remember how to set up a new printer.

    Maybe it's all a secret effort to bring about the paperless society
    by force? :)

    --
    __ __
    #_ < |\| |< _#

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Computer Nerd Kev@3:770/3 to Bob Latham on Tue Sep 19 08:46:52 2023
    Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:
    In article <650786bd@news.ausics.net>,
    Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote:

    Using Tar as suggested is one option. If you still want to use raw
    image files where the partitioning is already done for you, then
    what I've done for that is create a blank disk image file of the
    size I want (using dd reading from /dev/zero), then partition that
    and copy over the system files before writing that image to a real
    SD card.

    I think I understand the principle there (just), but dear me.
    What is dd?
    What is /dev/zero is that a drive?

    dd is basically the standard image file (etc.) reader/writer
    program on Linux. I thought you might have been using it already,
    but since reading more posts I see you were doing everything from
    Windows. TNF has already described dd and /dev/zero in ample
    detail.

    I'd love to do it but don't have anywhere near enough knowledge to do
    it?

    The aim is just to create an empty file which some Linux
    programs can then use pretending that it's a physical drive, then
    when everything's set up that file's contents can be copied over to
    a physical drive. The complicated part is really in copying the
    system files into the empty image file first. Resizing partitions
    would be easier for you.

    I've also had success with simply creating a partition table with
    blank space at the end of an SD card. If you just copy over as much
    data as will fit on the smaller SD card, it should still work if
    the partitions had all ended before the space ran out. Resizing
    the last partition on the existing card should work too (make a
    backup first). But doing the work on a file instead of a real card
    is probably safer and less confusing. Faster too, especially if
    you create it in /tmp so the write operations all happen in RAM,
    provided you have enough.

    No idea how to create a partition table. Wouldn't know where to start.

    Thanks for trying to help me but you're way above my level.

    Resizing the last parition isn't difficult in a program like
    GParted (which will need to run on Linux). What might be confusing
    then is that your disk imager program will probably still create an
    image file that's too big to fit on smaller SD cards. The image
    _can_ still work on smaller cards because the data in the
    unpartitioned section at the end of the image file is now ignored
    in use anyway, but you'll have to convince your image file writer
    program to just write as much data as will fit. That might be
    easy or it might be impossible, depending on the program.

    The last time I used image file writers on Windows was for floppy
    disk images, so I'm not sure whether modern ones are suitable for
    this. With dd you can use the "bs" and "count" options to stop it reading/writing data from/to the image file at the end of the last
    partition (if you get your maths right to work out where that is in
    bytes and divide that by the "bs" value in bytes to use for the
    "count" value - this is one of dd's less convenient aspects).

    --
    __ __
    #_ < |\| |< _#

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to druck on Tue Sep 19 08:02:32 2023
    On 18/09/2023 20:54, druck wrote:
    On 18/09/2023 09:29, Ian wrote:
    If you log in as "root", or get a root shell by calling "sudo bash",
    things work as expected:

    sudo -i

    is quicker to type.

    ---druck

    su - is even quicker

    --
    The New Left are the people they warned you about.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Bob Latham on Tue Sep 19 09:00:04 2023
    On 19/09/2023 08:32, Bob Latham wrote:
    In article <6508d35c@news.ausics.net>,
    Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote:

    dd is basically the standard image file (etc.) reader/writer
    program on Linux. I thought you might have been using it already,
    but since reading more posts I see you were doing everything from
    Windows.

    Yes, windows to you but I'm in the Black Country so it's Winders
    around here. :-)

    Oh well in that case just give the pi an 'ecky thump' and it will behave


    --
    "Strange as it seems, no amount of learning can cure stupidity, and
    higher education positively fortifies it."

    - Stephen Vizinczey

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Bob Latham@3:770/3 to Computer Nerd Kev on Tue Sep 19 08:32:22 2023
    In article <6508d35c@news.ausics.net>,
    Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote:

    dd is basically the standard image file (etc.) reader/writer
    program on Linux. I thought you might have been using it already,
    but since reading more posts I see you were doing everything from
    Windows.

    Yes, windows to you but I'm in the Black Country so it's Winders
    around here. :-)

    [snip]

    Resizing the last parition isn't difficult in a program like
    GParted (which will need to run on Linux).

    [snip]

    Thanks for the useful and educational post.

    Cheers,

    Bob.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Bob Latham@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Tue Sep 19 09:21:42 2023
    In article <uebke4$28kuk$1@dont-email.me>,
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 19/09/2023 08:32, Bob Latham wrote:
    In article <6508d35c@news.ausics.net>,
    Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote:

    dd is basically the standard image file (etc.) reader/writer
    program on Linux. I thought you might have been using it already,
    but since reading more posts I see you were doing everything from
    Windows.

    Yes, windows to you but I'm in the Black Country so it's Winders
    around here. :-)

    Oh well in that case just give the pi an 'ecky thump' and it will behave

    :-)

    I though that expression was Yorkshire is that where you are?

    Bob.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Bob Latham on Tue Sep 19 10:19:44 2023
    On 19/09/2023 09:21, Bob Latham wrote:
    In article <uebke4$28kuk$1@dont-email.me>,
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 19/09/2023 08:32, Bob Latham wrote:
    In article <6508d35c@news.ausics.net>,
    Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote:

    dd is basically the standard image file (etc.) reader/writer
    program on Linux. I thought you might have been using it already,
    but since reading more posts I see you were doing everything from
    Windows.

    Yes, windows to you but I'm in the Black Country so it's Winders
    around here. :-)

    Oh well in that case just give the pi an 'ecky thump' and it will behave

    :-)

    I though that expression was Yorkshire is that where you are?

    Bob.

    Nay lad, Oi be in Safferk, innit? Land of Queen Boudicca, et al...

    --
    In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
    In practice, there is.
    -- Yogi Berra

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Chris Elvidge@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Tue Sep 19 11:16:04 2023
    On 19/09/2023 08:02, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 18/09/2023 20:54, druck wrote:
    On 18/09/2023 09:29, Ian wrote:
    If you log in as "root", or get a root shell by calling "sudo bash",
    things work as expected:

    sudo -i

    is quicker to type.

    ---druck

    su - is even quicker


    'su -' needs a password entered (on my system(s))


    --
    Chris Elvidge, England
    I WILL NOT USE ABBREV.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ian@3:770/3 to Bob Latham on Tue Sep 19 09:23:44 2023
    On 2023-09-19, Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:

    Yes, windows to you but I'm in the Black Country so it's Winders
    around here. :-)

    Bostin! (ex-Mancunian, now living in Wolverhampton).

    --
    Ian

    "Tamahome!!!" - "Miaka!!!"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Chris Elvidge on Tue Sep 19 12:07:02 2023
    On 19/09/2023 11:16, Chris Elvidge wrote:
    On 19/09/2023 08:02, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 18/09/2023 20:54, druck wrote:
    On 18/09/2023 09:29, Ian wrote:
    If you log in as "root", or get a root shell by calling "sudo bash",
    things work as expected:

    sudo -i

    is quicker to type.

    ---druck

    su - is even quicker


    'su -' needs a password entered (on my system(s))


    so does sudo...on mine

    --
    "When one man dies it's a tragedy. When thousands die it's statistics."

    Josef Stalin

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Chris Elvidge@3:770/3 to R.Wieser on Tue Sep 19 13:27:26 2023
    On 18/09/2023 13:43, R.Wieser wrote:
    Chris,

    You can use (g)parted to resize the partition manually (obviously on
    another machine).

    I was/am trying to evade multi-step solutions. Especially ones that cannot be automated.

    Regards,
    Rudy Wieser



    OK. If you look into usr/lib/raspberrypi-sys-mods/firstboot there's a line: TARGET_END=$((ROOT_DEV_SIZE - 1))

    Change that -1 to whatever you want (e.g. ROOT_DEV_SIZE/2 for a root
    partition roughly half the SD card size).
    Remember $ROOT_DEV_SIZE is in 512 byte sectors.
    See: /sys/block/mmcblk0/size

    --
    Chris Elvidge, England
    MY MOM IS NOT DATING JERRY SEINFELD

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From R.Wieser@3:770/3 to All on Tue Sep 19 15:00:22 2023
    Chris,

    OK. If you look into usr/lib/raspberrypi-sys-mods/firstboot there's a
    line:
    TARGET_END=$((ROOT_DEV_SIZE - 1))
    [snip]

    Teriffic ! Thats the kind of solution I was hoping for. Thanks. :-)

    Regards,
    Rudy Wieser

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From druck@3:770/3 to Computer Nerd Kev on Tue Sep 19 21:21:26 2023
    On 18/09/2023 23:46, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
    Resizing the last parition isn't difficult in a program like
    GParted (which will need to run on Linux). What might be confusing
    then is that your disk imager program will probably still create an
    image file that's too big to fit on smaller SD cards.
    It's quite easy to resize the partition file, do a:-

    sudo fdisk -l <imagefile>

    You'll get something like

    Device Boot Start End Sectors Size Id Type
    backup.img1 8192 532479 524288 256M c W95 FAT32 (LBA)
    backup.img2 532480 15597567 15065088 7.2G 83 Linux

    Take the end value of the last partition add 1 and multiply by 512 to
    convert from sectors to bytes, then do the calculation again as this is
    a destructive action and can't be undone. When you are sure of the
    number resize the file using:-

    truncate <imagefile> <size>

    The last time I used image file writers on Windows was for floppy
    disk images, so I'm not sure whether modern ones are suitable for
    this. With dd you can use the "bs" and "count" options to stop it reading/writing data from/to the image file at the end of the last
    partition (if you get your maths right to work out where that is in
    bytes and divide that by the "bs" value in bytes to use for the
    "count" value - this is one of dd's less convenient aspects).

    With dd you don't have to worry, if the source image is bigger than the destination SD card, dd will just ignore the extra data. But it's still
    better to make the file the right size.

    ---druck

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Bob Latham@3:770/3 to druck on Wed Sep 20 13:09:54 2023
    In article <uecvs7$2gotn$1@dont-email.me>,
    druck <news@druck.org.uk> wrote:

    [Snip]

    It's quite easy to resize the partition file, do a:-

    sudo fdisk -l <imagefile>

    You'll get something like

    Device Boot Start End Sectors Size Id Type
    backup.img1 8192 532479 524288 256M c W95 FAT32 (LBA) backup.img2 532480 15597567 15065088 7.2G 83 Linux

    Take the end value of the last partition add 1 and multiply by 512
    to convert from sectors to bytes, then do the calculation again as
    this is a destructive action and can't be undone. When you are
    sure of the number resize the file using:-

    truncate <imagefile> <size>

    I read this a few times and couldn't decide for sure if it was what I
    wanted. I decided to have a go at it anyway.

    Not got a linux machine only PIs doing little jobs.

    I got an SD card and formatted it to fat32. I copied an image file to
    it that I had created last week and worked.

    Put it in a reader and plugged the reader into a PI I use as a spare
    for pi-hole and my intranet.

    Read my notes from Monday and a video on youtube ..

    $ sudo -1
    sudo: unable to resolve host intranet-pihole2: Name or service not
    known.

    Off to a cracking start. No idea what to do about it so ignored it
    and pushed on.

    # fdisk -l

    This gave me a list but mostly ram discs but my usb was there.

    From the video I typed...

    # mkdir /media/usb-drive
    # mount /dev/sda1 /media/usb-drive/
    # mount | grep sda1 (no idea, it's in the video)
    # cd /media/usb-drive/
    # ls
    # sudo fdisk -l <imagefile>

    Did the sums.

    # truncate <imagefile> -s 3896508416

    The '-s' caught me out but I got there eventually.

    The PI went away for not long maybe 10 seconds and came back.

    Thinking I'd done it, I wanted to get it back into a PC to take a
    look. I needed to dismount the usb, how ?????

    # umount /media/usb-drive (best guess)
    target is busy.

    This went on for half an hour or so. Surely it can't still be...

    I started to type this post and then I had a brain wobble. Have I got
    to get off it first?

    # cd
    # umount /media/usb-drive

    Yes! No error.

    Hope that's enough to dismount.

    Moved usb back to PC. No change in file size.

    Used win32diskimager and burnt an sd card. At this point I was
    guessing that I would now see a smaller 2nd partition and an
    unallocated area that I wouldn't get on these 4GB cards but would on
    larger cards.

    I ran partition wizard.

    No change there either that I could see. 2nd partition was still most
    of the drive and a good third was empty. No unallocated area.

    I either don't understand this or I've done (not done) something
    wrong.

    Any ideas?


    Cheers,

    Bob.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Bob Latham on Wed Sep 20 13:15:36 2023
    On 20/09/2023 13:09, Bob Latham wrote:
    cd/media/usb-drive/

    Thats your problem Lady.

    cd /
    THEN
    umount

    You cant unmount a drive you are sitting in


    --
    “Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.”

    ― Voltaire, Questions sur les Miracles à M. Claparede, Professeur de Théologie à Genève, par un Proposant: Ou Extrait de Diverses Lettres de
    M. de Voltaire

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Tauno Voipio@3:770/3 to Chris Elvidge on Wed Sep 20 16:15:44 2023
    On 19.9.2023 13.16, Chris Elvidge wrote:
    On 19/09/2023 08:02, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 18/09/2023 20:54, druck wrote:
    On 18/09/2023 09:29, Ian wrote:
    If you log in as "root", or get a root shell by calling "sudo bash",
    things work as expected:

    sudo -i

    is quicker to type.

    ---druck

    su - is even quicker


    'su -' needs a password entered (on my system(s))


    So should all other methods to aquire superuser privileges.

    There seems to be around RaspiOS setups with one user
    permitted in the /etc/sudoers without password.

    --

    -TV

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Andy Burns@3:770/3 to Bob Latham on Wed Sep 20 13:52:50 2023
    Bob Latham wrote:

    Not got a linux machine only PIs doing little jobs.

    What is an rPi, other than a Linux machine?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Andy Burns@3:770/3 to Bob Latham on Wed Sep 20 13:54:12 2023
    Bob Latham wrote:

    Are you saying that's why it doesn't seem to have done anything even
    though I eventually typed # cd before umount. It then appeared to
    dismount to me?

    typing "cd" by itself, takes you back to your home directory, so then
    your shell didn't have the mounted usb disk open.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Bob Latham@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Wed Sep 20 13:46:56 2023
    In article <ueenp9$2u313$1@dont-email.me>,
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 20/09/2023 13:09, Bob Latham wrote:
    cd/media/usb-drive/

    Thats your problem Lady.

    cd /
    THEN
    umount

    You cant unmount a drive you are sitting in

    Are you saying that's why it doesn't seem to have done anything even
    though I eventually typed
    # cd
    before umount. It then appeared to dismount to me?

    Or are you just confirming my brain wobble was correct?

    Bob.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Bob Latham@3:770/3 to Andy Burns on Wed Sep 20 14:21:46 2023
    In article <kn08bjFsjp7U2@mid.individual.net>,
    Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
    Bob Latham wrote:

    Are you saying that's why it doesn't seem to have done anything
    even though I eventually typed # cd before umount. It then
    appeared to dismount to me?

    typing "cd" by itself, takes you back to your home directory,

    Yes, that was my thinking.

    so then your shell didn't have the mounted usb disk open.

    For me that leads to other questions..

    1. Was it the correct thing to do?

    2. After that did I need to umount?

    3. I understand that being 'on' or 'in' an external drive means you
    cannot dismount it but was trying what stopped the process from
    working?

    Bob.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Bob Latham on Wed Sep 20 14:41:12 2023
    On 20/09/2023 13:46, Bob Latham wrote:
    In article <ueenp9$2u313$1@dont-email.me>,
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 20/09/2023 13:09, Bob Latham wrote:
    cd/media/usb-drive/

    Thats your problem Lady.

    cd /
    THEN
    umount

    You cant unmount a drive you are sitting in

    Are you saying that's why it doesn't seem to have done anything even
    though I eventually typed
    # cd
    before umount. It then appeared to dismount to me?


    That's right. If you are sitting on the mounted mount point, it cant get
    off!
    It will say 'busy'


    Or are you just confirming my brain wobble was correct?


    Not sure which wobble that was...

    Bob.


    --
    "The great thing about Glasgow is that if there's a nuclear attack it'll
    look exactly the same afterwards."

    Billy Connolly

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Andy Burns on Wed Sep 20 14:41:34 2023
    On 20/09/2023 13:52, Andy Burns wrote:
    Bob Latham wrote:

    Not got a linux machine only PIs doing little jobs.

    What is an rPi, other than a Linux machine?

    A pi PICO?

    --
    “I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most
    obvious truth if it be such as would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which
    they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives.”

    ― Leo Tolstoy

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Tauno Voipio on Wed Sep 20 14:43:02 2023
    On 20/09/2023 14:15, Tauno Voipio wrote:
    On 19.9.2023 13.16, Chris Elvidge wrote:
    On 19/09/2023 08:02, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 18/09/2023 20:54, druck wrote:
    On 18/09/2023 09:29, Ian wrote:
    If you log in as "root", or get a root shell by calling "sudo bash", >>>>> things work as expected:

    sudo -i

    is quicker to type.

    ---druck

    su - is even quicker


    'su -' needs a password entered (on my system(s))


    So should all other methods to aquire superuser privileges.

    There seems to be around RaspiOS setups with one user
    permitted in the /etc/sudoers without password.

    Well, being linux, you have the choice. If you want to run the whole
    shebang as root, you can!
    --
    “I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most
    obvious truth if it be such as would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which
    they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives.”

    ― Leo Tolstoy

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to Tauno Voipio on Wed Sep 20 15:40:56 2023
    On Wed, 20 Sep 2023 16:15:44 +0300
    Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> wrote:

    On 19.9.2023 13.16, Chris Elvidge wrote:

    'su -' needs a password entered (on my system(s))


    So should all other methods to aquire superuser privileges.

    With sudo it depends entirely on what is in /etc/sudoers.

    There seems to be around RaspiOS setups with one user
    permitted in the /etc/sudoers without password.

    This is possible sudoers supports a NOPASSWD keyword - this is
    mostly useful for automation and laziness.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Bob Latham@3:770/3 to Andy Burns on Wed Sep 20 16:34:22 2023
    In article <kn0892Fsjp7U1@mid.individual.net>,
    Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
    Bob Latham wrote:

    Not got a linux machine only PIs doing little jobs.

    What is an rPi, other than a Linux machine?

    It could be a RISCOS machine, I've got one of those running on a PI4.
    No linux in site. What I meant was, I don't have a desktop linux PC
    only headless units.

    Bob.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Bob Latham@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Wed Sep 20 16:36:38 2023
    In article <ueespp$2v1m1$1@dont-email.me>,
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:


    That's right. If you are sitting on the mounted mount point, it
    cant get off! It will say 'busy'

    Right but that's not the reason the whole thing did nothing *after* I
    corrected that ????

    Bob.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Bob Latham on Wed Sep 20 17:44:28 2023
    On 20/09/2023 16:36, Bob Latham wrote:
    In article <ueespp$2v1m1$1@dont-email.me>,
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:


    That's right. If you are sitting on the mounted mount point, it
    cant get off! It will say 'busy'

    Right but that's not the reason the whole thing did nothing *after* I corrected that ????

    Bob.

    I thought you said you unmounted it after that

    --
    Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the
    gospel of envy.

    Its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.

    Winston Churchill

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Richard Harnden@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Wed Sep 20 19:34:00 2023
    On 19/09/2023 12:07, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 19/09/2023 11:16, Chris Elvidge wrote:
    On 19/09/2023 08:02, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 18/09/2023 20:54, druck wrote:
    On 18/09/2023 09:29, Ian wrote:
    If you log in as "root", or get a root shell by calling "sudo bash", >>>>> things work as expected:

    sudo -i

    is quicker to type.

    ---druck

    su - is even quicker


    'su -' needs a password entered (on my system(s))


    so does sudo...on mine


    sudo wants /your/ password,
    su wants /root's/ password.

    You can set up sudo to not need a password.
    You shouldn't need to know root's password.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Martin Gregorie@3:770/3 to Bob Latham on Wed Sep 20 19:04:40 2023
    On Wed, 20 Sep 2023 14:21:47 +0100, Bob Latham wrote:

    In article <kn08bjFsjp7U2@mid.individual.net>,
    Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
    Bob Latham wrote:

    Are you saying that's why it doesn't seem to have done anything even
    though I eventually typed # cd before umount. It then appeared to
    dismount to me?

    typing "cd" by itself, takes you back to your home directory,

    Yes, that was my thinking.

    so then your shell didn't have the mounted usb disk open.

    For me that leads to other questions..
    1. Was it the correct thing to do?

    2. After that did I need to umount?

    3. I understand that being 'on' or 'in' an external drive means you
    cannot dismount it but was trying what stopped the process from working?

    Bob.

    re point 2: if you want to see what storage is mounted, run 'df' to get a
    list of all mounted partitions (file systems). This shows names of the
    file systems, they size in 1K blocks, the space used and available in each
    file system and the path to the fire system from '/'.





    --

    Martin | martin at
    Gregorie | gregorie dot org

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From druck@3:770/3 to Bob Latham on Wed Sep 20 21:15:06 2023
    On 20/09/2023 13:09, Bob Latham wrote:
    Not got a linux machine only PIs doing little jobs.

    Pi's running Linux are a Linux machine!

    I got an SD card and formatted it to fat32. I copied an image file to
    it that I had created last week and worked.

    Put it in a reader and plugged the reader into a PI I use as a spare
    for pi-hole and my intranet.

    Read my notes from Monday and a video on youtube ..

    $ sudo -1
    sudo: unable to resolve host intranet-pihole2: Name or service not
    known.

    I think you need to ensure you select email and terminal fonts can
    distinguish between i, l, and 1. The command is:-

    sudo -i

    That's a lower case letter i.

    # fdisk -l

    This gave me a list but mostly ram discs but my usb was there.

    From the video I typed...

    # mkdir /media/usb-drive
    # mount /dev/sda1 /media/usb-drive/
    # mount | grep sda1 (no idea, it's in the video)
    # cd /media/usb-drive/
    # ls
    # sudo fdisk -l <imagefile>

    Did the sums.

    # truncate <imagefile> -s 3896508416

    The '-s' caught me out but I got there eventually.

    The PI went away for not long maybe 10 seconds and came back.

    You've truncated the image file, but you've not mentioned resizing the partition sizes first. Without that step all you will be doing is not
    writing some of partition to a new card, and the last partition will
    still overlap the end, which things do not like.

    Thinking I'd done it, I wanted to get it back into a PC to take a
    look. I needed to dismount the usb, how ?????

    # umount /media/usb-drive (best guess)
    target is busy.

    This went on for half an hour or so. Surely it can't still be...

    I started to type this post and then I had a brain wobble. Have I got
    to get off it first?

    # cd
    # umount /media/usb-drive

    If you have a terminal current directory set to the drive being
    dismounted (or files open on it) this will happen. If you still cant
    unmount after cd and closing any applications which you think may have
    files open, you can do:-

    umount -l /media/usb-drive

    Used win32diskimager and burnt an sd card. At this point I was
    guessing that I would now see a smaller 2nd partition and an
    unallocated area that I wouldn't get on these 4GB cards but would on
    larger cards.

    I ran partition wizard.

    No change there either that I could see. 2nd partition was still most
    of the drive and a good third was empty. No unallocated area.

    I either don't understand this or I've done (not done) something
    wrong.

    Any ideas?

    Did you alter the partition table before truncating?

    ---druck

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to Richard Harnden on Wed Sep 20 21:54:58 2023
    On Wed, 20 Sep 2023 19:34:01 +0100
    Richard Harnden <richard.nospam@gmail.com> wrote:

    sudo wants /your/ password,
    su wants /root's/ password.

    You can set up sudo to not need a password.
    You shouldn't need to know root's password.

    For owner operated machines with only one human user it makes
    little difference.

    In a multi user environment sudo can be set up to give quite
    precise capabilities to groups of users and allow accurate tracking of who
    does what with their privileges - it can however be irritatingly hard to prevent every way of escaping to a shell while still providing useful tools.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Martin Gregorie on Thu Sep 21 08:35:32 2023
    On 20/09/2023 20:04, Martin Gregorie wrote:

    re point 2: if you want to see what storage is mounted, run 'df' to get a list of all mounted partitions (file systems). This shows names of the
    file systems, they size in 1K blocks, the space used and available in each file system and the path to the fire system from '/'.

    df -h presents the information in a more digestible form

    --
    "Anyone who believes that the laws of physics are mere social
    conventions is invited to try transgressing those conventions from the
    windows of my apartment. (I live on the twenty-first floor.) "

    Alan Sokal

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Richard Harnden on Thu Sep 21 08:34:42 2023
    On 20/09/2023 19:34, Richard Harnden wrote:

    You can set up sudo to not need a password.
    You shouldn't need to know root's password.

    Ah. You must be a New Socialist.
    To preface a personal preference with 'should'

    "c. 1200, from Old English sceolde, past tense of sceal (see shall).
    Preserves the original notion of "obligation" that has all but dropped
    from shall"

    'Should' implies a debt or moral obligation. I do not feel morally
    obliged to leave root's password unset nor do I feel you have any legal
    right or moral authority to lay that trip on me!


    --
    The New Left are the people they warned you about.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Martin Gregorie@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Thu Sep 21 11:15:42 2023
    On Wed, 20 Sep 2023 21:54:58 +0100, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:

    On Wed, 20 Sep 2023 19:34:01 +0100 Richard Harnden
    <richard.nospam@gmail.com> wrote:

    sudo wants /your/ password,
    su wants /root's/ password.

    You can set up sudo to not need a password.
    You shouldn't need to know root's password.

    For owner operated machines with only one human user it makes
    little difference.

    In a multi user environment sudo can be set up to give quite
    precise capabilities to groups of users and allow accurate tracking of
    who does what with their privileges - it can however be irritatingly
    hard to prevent every way of escaping to a shell while still providing
    useful tools.

    I always set up a root password as a backstop to prevent miscreants from getting into systems on my LAN if they manage to sneak through my
    firewall. Similarly, I encrypt a small partition as a way of preventing a stolen machine from being booted (and as a depository for storing
    passwords for internal user logins and external applications).

    Yes, I know this isn't totally secure, but its probably good enough to
    prevent a common or garden thief from using the machine or selling it to anybody who doesn't know enough to reformat the disk and install Winders
    on it.


    --

    Martin | martin at
    Gregorie | gregorie dot org

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Martin Gregorie@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Thu Sep 21 11:00:22 2023
    On Thu, 21 Sep 2023 08:35:32 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 20/09/2023 20:04, Martin Gregorie wrote:

    re point 2: if you want to see what storage is mounted, run 'df' to get
    a list of all mounted partitions (file systems). This shows names of
    the file systems, they size in 1K blocks, the space used and available
    in each file system and the path to the fire system from '/'.

    df -h presents the information in a more digestible form

    Good suggestion. I seem to remember that this used to be the default
    display format.


    --

    Martin | martin at
    Gregorie | gregorie dot org

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Bob Latham@3:770/3 to druck on Thu Sep 21 12:26:46 2023
    In article <uefjsc$33fp6$1@dont-email.me>,
    druck <news@druck.org.uk> wrote:
    On 20/09/2023 13:09, Bob Latham wrote:
    Not got a linux machine only PIs doing little jobs.

    Pi's running Linux are a Linux machine!

    Ok, how about don't have a Linux desktop PC.

    I got an SD card and formatted it to fat32. I copied an image
    file to it that I had created last week and worked.

    Put it in a reader and plugged the reader into a PI I use as a
    spare for pi-hole and my intranet.

    Read my notes from Monday and a video on youtube ..

    $ sudo -1 sudo: unable to resolve host intranet-pihole2: Name or
    service not known.

    I think you need to ensure you select email and terminal fonts can distinguish between i, l, and 1. The command is:-

    sudo -i

    That's a lower case letter i.

    Yes, thanks. Somehow managed a typo on the news post.

    The PI went away for not long maybe 10 seconds and came back.

    You've truncated the image file, but you've not mentioned resizing
    the partition sizes first. Without that step all you will be doing
    is not writing some of partition to a new card, and the last
    partition will still overlap the end, which things do not like.

    I'm sure you're correct but once again I've reached the limits of understanding. :-) I read back on the whole thread and see if I can
    work out how resize a partition, no idea at the moment.

    # cd
    # umount /media/usb-drive

    If you have a terminal current directory set to the drive being
    dismounted (or files open on it) this will happen. If you still
    cant unmount after cd and closing any applications which you think
    may have files open, you can do:-

    umount -l /media/usb-drive

    Thanks for that.

    Did you alter the partition table before truncating?

    I just did what I wrote so very probably not. I've now got to work
    out how to do it.

    Thanks.

    Bob.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Martin Gregorie@3:770/3 to Bob Latham on Thu Sep 21 15:55:08 2023
    On Thu, 21 Sep 2023 12:26:47 +0100, Bob Latham wrote:

    In article <uefjsc$33fp6$1@dont-email.me>,
    druck <news@druck.org.uk> wrote:
    On 20/09/2023 13:09, Bob Latham wrote:
    Not got a linux machine only PIs doing little jobs.

    Pi's running Linux are a Linux machine!

    Ok, how about don't have a Linux desktop PC.

    Have you got a desKtop or laptop with either

    - a built-in CD drive

    - a reasonably fast USB socket and either a portable USB hard disk or a
    40GB USB stick.

    If so, download a bootable Linux image onto it. Most PCs and laptops can
    find and boot the Linux image you just downloaded and run it damaging the existing OS (probably Windows) and associated filing system.

    Now you can boot the PC from the Linux image, stick the SD card containing
    the Pi's filing system into a vacant USB slot on the PC and it should show
    up on your desktop, ready to be mounted and its contents inspected and
    altered as needed.

    Once you've finished with it, remember to unmount the PI's SD card before
    you pull it out of its slot on the PC, close down Linux, disconnect the
    device containing the Linux image and reboot from the PC as usual.


    --

    Martin | martin at
    Gregorie | gregorie dot org

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Bob Latham on Fri Sep 22 09:38:46 2023
    On 21/09/2023 12:26, Bob Latham wrote:
    You've truncated the image file, but you've not mentioned resizing
    the partition sizes first. Without that step all you will be doing
    is not writing some of partition to a new card, and the last
    partition will still overlap the end, which things do not like.
    I'm sure you're correct but once again I've reached the limits of understanding. 😄 I read back on the whole thread and see if I can
    work out how resize a partition, no idea at the moment.


    Yeah. That image file is now like a half empty bag of sugar with the top
    cut off. It is not a half sized bag.
    The partition is in a sense a container, and if you have left the part
    of it that defines how big it is,but removed half of it, then the
    computer will try and access parts that no longer exist.

    This is (as the Book says) a Bad Thing.

    --
    Labour - a bunch of rich people convincing poor people to vote for rich
    people by telling poor people that "other" rich people are the reason
    they are poor.

    Peter Thompson

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Bob Latham@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Sun Sep 24 11:00:32 2023
    In article <uejjqn$3j1j$1@dont-email.me>,
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 21/09/2023 12:26, Bob Latham wrote:

    You've truncated the image file, but you've not mentioned
    resizing the partition sizes first. Without that step all you
    will be doing is not writing some of partition to a new card,
    and the last partition will still overlap the end, which things
    do not like.
    I'm sure you're correct but once again I've reached the limits of understanding. # I read back on the whole thread and see if I can
    work out how resize a partition, no idea at the moment.


    Yeah. That image file is now like a half empty bag of sugar with
    the top cut off. It is not a half sized bag. The partition is in
    a sense a container, and if you have left the part of it that
    defines how big it is,but removed half of it, then the computer
    will try and access parts that no longer exist.

    I've spent a few days looking at this trying to understand what
    you're telling me and i just don't get it. Would someone please
    explain to me where i'm going wrong both in procedure and
    understanding.

    One of my problems is clearly understanding terminology used.

    Druck talks about resizing the 'partition file'. I thought this was
    the image containing two partitions used to burn onto an SD card. I
    now don't think that's the case, so what is it and where is it?


    Is any of the following correct?

    My problem is that I end up with an SD card image with two
    partitions, the second one is usually at least half empty. I presume
    there is no point messing with the very small first partition?

    I need to end the second partition earlier/shorter and change the
    last part of the image file to unallocated.

    When I've done that I can chop the end of the image file off.

    So the bit Druck described the other day using
    "truncate <imagefile> -s <size>"

    Is that the bit that chops off the newly unallocated end of the file?

    If so, (and if it isn't I'm really lost), then what I've not done is
    end the second partition earlier creating an unallocated area?

    I'm dreading asking this but is that the bit Ian described and he and
    TNP patiently talked/coached me through last week?

    I build images a lot and I need whatever system I use to be
    reasonably quick to perform. Ian's procedure is very time consuming
    and if that's needed then this isn't really practical for my needs.

    It's all been very worth it from a learning POV at the very least.

    Thanks.

    Cheers,

    Bob.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Bob Latham on Sun Sep 24 12:30:56 2023
    On 24/09/2023 11:00, Bob Latham wrote:
    In article <uejjqn$3j1j$1@dont-email.me>,
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 21/09/2023 12:26, Bob Latham wrote:

    You've truncated the image file, but you've not mentioned
    resizing the partition sizes first. Without that step all you
    will be doing is not writing some of partition to a new card,
    and the last partition will still overlap the end, which things
    do not like.
    I'm sure you're correct but once again I've reached the limits of
    understanding. # I read back on the whole thread and see if I can
    work out how resize a partition, no idea at the moment.


    Yeah. That image file is now like a half empty bag of sugar with
    the top cut off. It is not a half sized bag. The partition is in
    a sense a container, and if you have left the part of it that
    defines how big it is,but removed half of it, then the computer
    will try and access parts that no longer exist.

    I've spent a few days looking at this trying to understand what
    you're telling me and i just don't get it. Would someone please
    explain to me where i'm going wrong both in procedure and
    understanding.

    One of my problems is clearly understanding terminology used.
    A very common problem.


    Druck talks about resizing the 'partition file'. I thought this was
    the image containing two partitions used to burn onto an SD card. I
    now don't think that's the case, so what is it and where is it?

    I think that is sloppy semantics. The thing is to resize the partiton
    in the *image* file to allow the image file to be shrunk


    Is any of the following correct?

    My problem is that I end up with an SD card image with two
    partitions, the second one is usually at least half empty. I presume
    there is no point messing with the very small first partition?

    Not really.

    I need to end the second partition earlier/shorter and change the
    last part of the image file to unallocated.

    Or delete it entirely

    When I've done that I can chop the end of the image file off.

    Oh I see. Yes. exactly so
    ]
    So the bit Druck described the other day using
    "truncate <imagefile> -s <size>"

    Is that the bit that chops off the newly unallocated end of the file?

    Probably
    Its a bit like a chainsaw, is truncate

    If so, (and if it isn't I'm really lost), then what I've not done is
    end the second partition earlier creating an unallocated area?

    Probably. You need 'parted' to do that. Or an equivalent windows program.

    And it all gets fairly messy

    That's why I am investigating using a file based backup system rather
    than imaging the entire card. Sadly its very slow


    I'm dreading asking this but is that the bit Ian described and he and
    TNP patiently talked/coached me through last week?

    I didnt touch on parted. I am not very good with it anyway, and if the
    blind lead the blind, they both shall fall into the ditch...

    And parted will only work ON the Pi..or another linux system, but that
    does suggest another approach,

    1. START with parted to shrink the partition on the PI to a bit more
    than it needs to run
    2. Then dd the entire card to an image file
    3. Then truncate it.

    Actually within Linux I found this

    "If you wish to shrink an ext2 partition, first use resize2fs to shrink
    the size of filesystem. Then you may use fdisk(8) to shrink the size of
    the partition. When shrinking the size of the partition, make sure you
    do not make it smaller than the new size of the ext2 filesystem! "

    This is probably a way to go, to start with a smaller partition before
    dd-ing. THEN you can truncate reasonably safely.

    But I personally don't find *any* of these methods easy, or quick.


    I build images a lot and I need whatever system I use to be
    reasonably quick to perform. Ian's procedure is very time consuming
    and if that's needed then this isn't really practical for my needs.

    Remind me again what you are trying to achieve...is it to replicate
    safely onto SD cards of varying sizes the exact same image?
    If so, time taken to prepare the image is not so serious.
    And my system of copying the files over, then creating a smaller
    'virtual disk image' which will expand to fill the card on booting, may
    serve.

    How this would/will work is this:

    0/.Probably start by connecting a USB drive to the pi and using that as
    a big scratch area
    1/. Create an empty disk image on it by copying zeroes from /dev/zero to
    a disk image file.
    2/. use fdisk or parted to create the small VFAT and the larger ext4
    partitions
    3/. mount the two partitions as loopback devices
    4/. COPY the /boot file system onto the vfat partition
    5/. COPY the root filesystem onto the ext4 partition
    6/. Label the two file systems identically with what is in /etc/fstab
    7/. Optionally add scripts to the first boot to resize the partition to
    the full card size.
    You will now have a disk image less than the smallest card you ever want
    to use, that you can dd at will onto any new SD card.

    It will take a long time to prepare this image, but once you have it, installing it will be very fast..



    It's all been very worth it from a learning POV at the very least.

    Thanks.

    Cheers,

    Bob.


    --
    “It is dangerous to be right in matters on which the established
    authorities are wrong.”

    ― Voltaire, The Age of Louis XIV

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to All on Sun Sep 24 12:53:10 2023
    I had another thought on this.
    I am not sure if it would work, or not.
    Let's say you have a clone image of the whole SD card on a desktop computer.

    You should be able to mount its two partitions on that computer.
    You then create a small empty disk image file and partition that with
    whatever tools your OS has, labelling the new partitions to have the
    *same id as the old ones*, and mount those two partitions as well.
    You copy all the files in the cloned image partitions to the new image partitions. This will be fast because you are not using the Pi to do it

    And you have a new image file smaller than any SD card you ever intend
    to use.

    This should be scriptable.

    --
    “The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to
    fill the world with fools.”

    Herbert Spencer

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Bob Latham@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Sun Sep 24 13:57:26 2023
    In article <uep6lh$1b351$1@dont-email.me>,
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 24/09/2023 11:00, Bob Latham wrote:
    In article <uejjqn$3j1j$1@dont-email.me>,
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 21/09/2023 12:26, Bob Latham wrote:

    Druck talks about resizing the 'partition file'. I thought this
    was the image containing two partitions used to burn onto an SD
    card. I now don't think that's the case, so what is it and where
    is it?

    The thing is to resize the partiton in the *image* file to allow
    the image file to be shrunk.

    Yes, I think I'm with that.

    Is any of the following correct?

    My problem is that I end up with an SD card image with two
    partitions, the second one is usually at least half empty. I
    presume there is no point messing with the very small first
    partition?

    Not really.

    I need to end the second partition earlier/shorter and change the
    last part of the image file to unallocated.

    Or delete it entirely

    When I've done that I can chop the end of the image file off.

    Oh I see. Yes. exactly so

    :-) I got something right !


    [Snip]

    Actually within Linux I found this

    "If you wish to shrink an ext2 partition, first use resize2fs to
    shrink the size of filesystem. Then you may use fdisk(8) to shrink
    the size of the partition. When shrinking the size of the
    partition, make sure you do not make it smaller than the new size
    of the ext2 filesystem! "

    Wow, I think I understand that, it makes sense to me.

    This is probably a way to go, to start with a smaller partition
    before dd-ing. THEN you can truncate reasonably safely.

    But I personally don't find *any* of these methods easy, or quick.


    I build images a lot and I need whatever system I use to be
    reasonably quick to perform. Ian's procedure is very time
    consuming and if that's needed then this isn't really practical
    for my needs.

    Remind me again what you are trying to achieve..

    Building something from scratch is time consuming. So when I build a
    music player I do it in stages:
    1. OS
    2. OS + SAMBA
    3. OS + SAMBA + mpd
    4. all the above plus Media player.

    After building each stage I save the image to hard disc so that
    should I wish to test a beta version of media player I install level
    3 and then add the new media player. If I want to build a webserver
    or/and a pi-hole then I use stage 2 already built.

    Much faster and mistakes are fewer as stages have been proven.

    The problem now is image size. I have several 4GB sd cards and they
    all seem to be slightly different sizes. I have to build on the
    smallest of the cards to get an image small enough to go onto any of
    my cards. That means I'm fixed on one card.

    My need is to make any the stages fit onto any of the 4GB cards and
    even better if I could reduce the enormous amount of disc space these
    images take up. Especially true as these images are 30% - 50% empty.

    is it to replicate safely onto SD cards of varying sizes the exact
    same image?

    Yes, I suppose.

    If so,
    time taken to prepare the image is not so serious. And my system of
    copying the files over, then creating a smaller 'virtual disk
    image' which will expand to fill the card on booting, may serve.

    How this would/will work is this:

    0/.Probably start by connecting a USB drive to the pi and using
    that as a big scratch area.

    OK.

    1/. Create an empty disk image on it by
    copying zeroes from /dev/zero to a disk image file.

    Principle OK, doing it no chance.

    2/. use fdisk or parted to create the small VFAT and the larger
    ext4 partitions.

    Struggle.

    3/. mount the two partitions as loopback devices

    No understanding of loopback, I thought that was 128.0.0.1 or
    something like that. :-)


    4/. COPY the /boot
    file system onto the vfat partition
    5/. COPY the root filesystem
    onto the ext4 partition

    Is this some sort of format procedure?


    6/. Label the two file systems identically
    with what is in /etc/fstab

    I'm lost!

    7/. Optionally add scripts to the first
    boot to resize the partition to the full card size. You will now
    have a disk image less than the smallest card you ever want to
    use, that you can dd at will onto any new SD card.

    It will take a long time to prepare this image, but once you have
    it, installing it will be very fast..

    It is ample demonstration of how little I know.

    Thanks.

    Bob.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Chris Elvidge@3:770/3 to Bob Latham on Sun Sep 24 16:00:06 2023
    On 17/09/2023 09:58, Bob Latham wrote:
    Hi,

    I build images for projects on 4GB cards so that I can save a
    completed image without using too much disc space. My problem comes
    when I try to burn a new card from the saved image. Often it will not
    fit because there are small differences in the size of the cards.

    Does anyone know of a way to reduce the capacity of an SD card so
    that I can make a 4GB card maybe 3.5GB which would mean all cards
    could easily manage it and reduce the size of the save image.


    Thanks.

    Bob.


    Can you edit a file in the ext4 partition of the SD card after burning
    with raw image but before you put it in the SD slot of the Pi for first
    boot?
    If so, edit the firstboot file in usr/lib/raspberrypi-sys-mods/
    directory of the second (ext4) partition.
    Edit the line TARGET_END=$((ROOT_DEV_SIZE - 1))
    Change the 1 to 1048576
    That will make the automatic expansion of the root file system at first
    boot to leave approx. 512Mb (0.5Gb) space at the end on the SD card. I.e
    reduce the 4Gb down to 3.5Gb

    Alternatively, do you have access to machine with a full version of
    Raspbian? I.e. with graphical desktop.
    Install gparted (using apt).
    Put target SD card in USB adapter and insert into USB port. It will show
    as /dev/sda if no other disks in USB.
    Run gparted as root to shrink the second partition (ext4) of the SD card
    (sda).


    --
    Chris Elvidge, England
    I WILL NOT SELL LAND IN FLORIDA

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Bob Latham@3:770/3 to Chris Elvidge on Sun Sep 24 16:45:14 2023
    In article <uepitn$1d4bk$1@dont-email.me>,
    Chris Elvidge <chris@mshome.net> wrote:
    On 17/09/2023 09:58, Bob Latham wrote:
    Hi,

    I build images for projects on 4GB cards so that I can save a
    completed image without using too much disc space. My problem comes
    when I try to burn a new card from the saved image. Often it will not
    fit because there are small differences in the size of the cards.

    Does anyone know of a way to reduce the capacity of an SD card so
    that I can make a 4GB card maybe 3.5GB which would mean all cards
    could easily manage it and reduce the size of the save image.


    Thanks.

    Bob.


    Can you edit a file in the ext4 partition of the SD card after
    burning with raw image but before you put it in the SD slot of the
    Pi for first boot?

    The only way I could think of to be able to read/write files on the
    SD card without the card running was possibly by plugging the card
    into my Synology NAS (linux) via usb. It does list something but I
    strongly suspect it's the first partition.

    Even if I could I don't understand because the card has to have been
    run to be created and saved but I'm sure I don't really understand
    it.

    If so, edit the firstboot file in
    usr/lib/raspberrypi-sys-mods/ directory of the second (ext4)
    partition. Edit the line TARGET_END=$((ROOT_DEV_SIZE - 1)) Change
    the 1 to 1048576 That will make the automatic expansion of the root
    file system at first boot to leave approx. 512Mb (0.5Gb) space at
    the end on the SD card. I.e reduce the 4Gb down to 3.5Gb

    Alternatively, do you have access to machine with a full version of
    Raspbian? I.e. with graphical desktop. Install gparted (using
    apt). Put target SD card in USB adapter and insert into USB port.
    It will show as /dev/sda if no other disks in USB. Run gparted as
    root to shrink the second partition (ext4) of the SD card (sda).

    I'm afraid I do not.

    Thanks for the ideas.

    Bob.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From druck@3:770/3 to Bob Latham on Mon Sep 25 21:11:00 2023
    On 24/09/2023 11:00, Bob Latham wrote:
    In article <uejjqn$3j1j$1@dont-email.me>,
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 21/09/2023 12:26, Bob Latham wrote:

    Druck talks about resizing the 'partition file'. I thought this was
    the image containing two partitions used to burn onto an SD card. I
    now don't think that's the case, so what is it and where is it?

    That is the case, but it is step 2 of a 2 part process.

    Step 1 is to use a partition editor (gparted or parted) to resize the
    ext4 partition in the image file, as described earlier in the thread.

    So the bit Druck described the other day using
    "truncate <imagefile> -s <size>"

    That's step 2

    Is that the bit that chops off the newly unallocated end of the file?

    Yes

    If so, (and if it isn't I'm really lost), then what I've not done is
    end the second partition earlier creating an unallocated area?

    Yes

    ---druck

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Bob Latham@3:770/3 to druck on Tue Sep 26 09:21:42 2023
    In article <uespgl$234t2$1@dont-email.me>,
    druck <news@druck.org.uk> wrote:
    On 24/09/2023 11:00, Bob Latham wrote:
    In article <uejjqn$3j1j$1@dont-email.me>,

    Is that the bit that chops off the newly unallocated end of the
    file?

    Yes

    If so, (and if it isn't I'm really lost), then what I've not done
    is end the second partition earlier creating an unallocated area?

    Yes

    Thanks druck that is encouraging.

    So I need to use either gparted or parted. Do they operate on an
    image file (ready to be burnt to an sd card) or do they work on a
    drive with working partitions (but obviously not the OS drive)?

    Hope my terminology is good enough to be understood.

    Thanks.

    Bob.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Bob Latham on Tue Sep 26 13:04:30 2023
    On 26/09/2023 09:21, Bob Latham wrote:
    In article <uespgl$234t2$1@dont-email.me>,
    druck <news@druck.org.uk> wrote:
    On 24/09/2023 11:00, Bob Latham wrote:
    In article <uejjqn$3j1j$1@dont-email.me>,

    Is that the bit that chops off the newly unallocated end of the
    file?

    Yes

    If so, (and if it isn't I'm really lost), then what I've not done
    is end the second partition earlier creating an unallocated area?

    Yes

    Thanks druck that is encouraging.

    So I need to use either gparted or parted. Do they operate on an
    image file (ready to be burnt to an sd card) or do they work on a
    drive with working partitions (but obviously not the OS drive)?

    Both.

    I think you need to 'loop mount' the image to operate on it

    You do need a working linux machine to utilise them though - they are
    not windows tools

    Booting a live CD/DVD/USB drive linux system will net you all you need
    for the duration.

    If you have an old machine you can install linux on it might help a lot learning your way around the tools, or a Pi with a screen and keyboard
    is just as good, ifd a tad slower

    Hope my terminology is good enough to be understood.

    It is.

    Thanks.

    Bob.


    --
    If I had all the money I've spent on drink...
    ..I'd spend it on drink.

    Sir Henry (at Rawlinson's End)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Bob Latham@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Tue Sep 26 13:56:12 2023
    In article <ueuhcf$2g1lp$3@dont-email.me>,
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 26/09/2023 09:21, Bob Latham wrote:
    In article <uespgl$234t2$1@dont-email.me>,
    druck <news@druck.org.uk> wrote:
    On 24/09/2023 11:00, Bob Latham wrote:
    In article <uejjqn$3j1j$1@dont-email.me>,

    Is that the bit that chops off the newly unallocated end of the
    file?

    Yes

    If so, (and if it isn't I'm really lost), then what I've not done
    is end the second partition earlier creating an unallocated area?

    Yes

    Thanks druck that is encouraging.

    So I need to use either gparted or parted. Do they operate on an
    image file (ready to be burnt to an sd card) or do they work on a
    drive with working partitions (but obviously not the OS drive)?

    Both.

    I think you need to 'loop mount' the image to operate on it

    loop mount ??????

    You do need a working linux machine to utilise them though - they
    are not windows tools

    Booting a live CD/DVD/USB drive linux system will net you all you
    need for the duration.

    I'm sure you're right, it would help if I had a Linux machine proper.

    I'll look into a disc boot device of some sort. There's an old XP
    machine upstairs which my wife has decided should go to the tip. If I
    start using it now .......

    Trying to get my head around all of this, I have this morning gone
    through Ian's procedure again. It was easy the second time and
    knowing what to expect. I was hoping I could see how Druck's chain
    saw suggestion would help but I don't see it yet.

    Interesting though..
    Before Ian's procedure partition 2 was
    3.4GB and 69% used = 2.34 GB data.

    After Ian's procedure P2 was
    3.0GB and 55% used = 1.65 GB data.

    I don't see how all the data can be there?

    To say I don't understand would be a big understatement.

    Would the procedure be any faster if the files were just copied from
    part2 to safe area and copied back to the new partition rather than
    using Tar?

    It's the tar up and down and the saving of the new image which is so
    slow it makes it impractical.

    Thanks.

    Bob.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Bob Latham on Tue Sep 26 14:41:26 2023
    On 26/09/2023 13:56, Bob Latham wrote:
    In article <ueuhcf$2g1lp$3@dont-email.me>,
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 26/09/2023 09:21, Bob Latham wrote:
    In article <uespgl$234t2$1@dont-email.me>,
    druck <news@druck.org.uk> wrote:
    On 24/09/2023 11:00, Bob Latham wrote:
    In article <uejjqn$3j1j$1@dont-email.me>,

    Is that the bit that chops off the newly unallocated end of the
    file?

    Yes

    If so, (and if it isn't I'm really lost), then what I've not done
    is end the second partition earlier creating an unallocated area?

    Yes

    Thanks druck that is encouraging.

    So I need to use either gparted or parted. Do they operate on an
    image file (ready to be burnt to an sd card) or do they work on a
    drive with working partitions (but obviously not the OS drive)?

    Both.

    I think you need to 'loop mount' the image to operate on it

    loop mount ??????

    You do need a working linux machine to utilise them though - they
    are not windows tools

    Booting a live CD/DVD/USB drive linux system will net you all you
    need for the duration.

    I'm sure you're right, it would help if I had a Linux machine proper.

    I'll look into a disc boot device of some sort. There's an old XP
    machine upstairs which my wife has decided should go to the tip. If I
    start using it now .......

    Trying to get my head around all of this, I have this morning gone
    through Ian's procedure again. It was easy the second time and
    knowing what to expect. I was hoping I could see how Druck's chain
    saw suggestion would help but I don't see it yet.

    Interesting though..
    Before Ian's procedure partition 2 was
    3.4GB and 69% used = 2.34 GB data.

    After Ian's procedure P2 was
    3.0GB and 55% used = 1.65 GB data.

    I don't see how all the data can be there?

    To say I don't understand would be a big understatement.

    Would the procedure be any faster if the files were just copied from
    part2 to safe area and copied back to the new partition rather than
    using Tar?

    Probably not, sadly

    It's the tar up and down and the saving of the new image which is so
    slow it makes it impractical.

    Indeed. I let my rsync* backup run overnight.

    *another way to copy files in this instance


    Thanks.

    Bob.


    --
    It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled. Mark Twain

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Martin Gregorie@3:770/3 to Bob Latham on Tue Sep 26 14:28:16 2023
    On Tue, 26 Sep 2023 13:56:13 +0100, Bob Latham wrote:

    I'm sure you're right, it would help if I had a Linux machine proper.

    Take a look at eBay for used laptops, especially Lenovo ones: all Lenovos
    will run Linux and have USB sockets and their Thinkpad series are solid
    and well made machines:

    - my first laptop was a Lenovo R61i which served me well for 12 years,
    until its hard disk died in 2017. Its still usable as well as faster
    since I replaced the dead disk with a 120GB SSD (by 2017 you couldn't
    buy hard drives smaller than 500GB but the R61i hardware can't handle
    disks bigger than 220GB, hence the small SSD which is still big enough
    to holds everything that was on the dead disk.(spread sheet and word
    processing programs, GIMP image editor, C and Java compilation systems,
    Evolution mail client, Google Earth, ...

    - Currently I'm using a Lenovo T440 that's at least 7 years old (I bought
    it off eBay in 2017 (400GB HDD, 8GB RAM) and it is running Fedora Linux.
    It also boots happily from a USB-connected HDD or CD disk. It does
    everything I need and is fairly rugged 1600x900 with a decent screen, SD
    card socket and a couple of USB sockets.

    eBay has 'em from GBP 40.00 to GBP 120.00 as well as

    I'll look into a disc boot device of some sort. There's an old XP
    machine upstairs which my wife has decided should go to the tip. If I
    start using it now .......

    Most modern desktops and laptops should boot from a USB CD drive, and if
    the CD drive isn't read-only, most PCs should should download a bootable
    Linux disk image and write it to a CD or USB stick, which should be at
    least 30-40GB.

    I hope the above gives you some useful ideas.


    --

    Martin | martin at
    Gregorie | gregorie dot org

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Bob Latham@3:770/3 to Martin Gregorie on Tue Sep 26 16:09:20 2023
    In article <ueupq1$2fgaa$1@dont-email.me>,
    Martin Gregorie <martin@mydomain.invalid> wrote:
    On Tue, 26 Sep 2023 13:56:13 +0100, Bob Latham wrote:

    I'm sure you're right, it would help if I had a Linux machine proper.

    Take a look at eBay for used laptops, especially Lenovo ones: all
    Lenovos will run Linux and have USB sockets and their Thinkpad
    series are solid and well made machines:

    - my first laptop was a Lenovo R61i which served me well for 12
    years, until its hard disk died in 2017. Its still usable as well
    as faster since I replaced the dead disk with a 120GB SSD (by
    2017 you couldn't buy hard drives smaller than 500GB but the R61i
    hardware can't handle disks bigger than 220GB, hence the small
    SSD which is still big enough to holds everything that was on the
    dead disk.(spread sheet and word processing programs, GIMP image
    editor, C and Java compilation systems, Evolution mail client,
    Google Earth, ...

    - Currently I'm using a Lenovo T440 that's at least 7 years old (I
    bought it off eBay in 2017 (400GB HDD, 8GB RAM) and it is running
    Fedora Linux. It also boots happily from a USB-connected HDD or CD
    disk. It does everything I need and is fairly rugged 1600x900 with
    a decent screen, SD card socket and a couple of USB sockets.

    eBay has 'em from GBP 40.00 to GBP 120.00 as well as

    I'll look into a disc boot device of some sort. There's an old XP
    machine upstairs which my wife has decided should go to the tip.
    If I start using it now .......

    Most modern desktops and laptops should boot from a USB CD drive,
    and if the CD drive isn't read-only, most PCs should should
    download a bootable Linux disk image and write it to a CD or USB
    stick, which should be at least 30-40GB.

    I hope the above gives you some useful ideas.

    Thanks Martin.

    Cheers,

    Bob.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Martin Gregorie on Tue Sep 26 17:14:32 2023
    On 26/09/2023 15:28, Martin Gregorie wrote:
    On Tue, 26 Sep 2023 13:56:13 +0100, Bob Latham wrote:

    I'm sure you're right, it would help if I had a Linux machine proper.

    Take a look at eBay for used laptops, especially Lenovo ones: all Lenovos will run Linux and have USB sockets and their Thinkpad series are solid
    and well made machines:

    - my first laptop was a Lenovo R61i which served me well for 12 years,
    until its hard disk died in 2017. Its still usable as well as faster
    since I replaced the dead disk with a 120GB SSD (by 2017 you couldn't
    buy hard drives smaller than 500GB but the R61i hardware can't handle
    disks bigger than 220GB, hence the small SSD which is still big enough
    to holds everything that was on the dead disk.(spread sheet and word
    processing programs, GIMP image editor, C and Java compilation systems,
    Evolution mail client, Google Earth, ...

    - Currently I'm using a Lenovo T440 that's at least 7 years old (I bought
    it off eBay in 2017 (400GB HDD, 8GB RAM) and it is running Fedora Linux.
    It also boots happily from a USB-connected HDD or CD disk. It does
    everything I need and is fairly rugged 1600x900 with a decent screen, SD
    card socket and a couple of USB sockets.

    eBay has 'em from GBP 40.00 to GBP 120.00 as well as

    I'll look into a disc boot device of some sort. There's an old XP
    machine upstairs which my wife has decided should go to the tip. If I
    start using it now .......

    Most modern desktops and laptops should boot from a USB CD drive, and if
    the CD drive isn't read-only, most PCs should should download a bootable Linux disk image and write it to a CD or USB stick, which should be at
    least 30-40GB.

    I hope the above gives you some useful ideas.


    Id be very careful with some ebay laptops. Laptops unfortunately DIE. I
    have a fully electrically functioning HP one except the case has turned
    to rubble., I kid you not. The plastic has simply crumbled. It probably biodegraded...I paid £200+ for a refurbished one with some sort of
    guarantee at 'laptops direct'. Ive boght several things from them, all
    refurbed or sale price and they have never sold me shit

    Current best offering is this

    https://www.laptopsdirect.co.uk/refrubished-asus-e210ma-celeron-n4020-4gb-64gb-11.6-inch-windows-11-laptop-a2-e210ma-gj181ws/version.asp

    £119 is not to much to spend on a cheap lappie


    --
    Karl Marx said religion is the opium of the people.
    But Marxism is the crack cocaine.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From =?UTF-8?Q?Bj=c3=b6rn_Lundin?=@3:770/3 to Martin Gregorie on Tue Sep 26 21:41:30 2023
    On 2023-09-26 16:28, Martin Gregorie wrote:
    On Tue, 26 Sep 2023 13:56:13 +0100, Bob Latham wrote:

    I'm sure you're right, it would help if I had a Linux machine proper.

    Take a look at eBay for used laptops,


    Or thin clients.
    I bought a Hp T510 and a fujitsu Futuro s720 for less than 20 euros
    CPU like a RPI 4 but AMD or Via, 4 gb RAM and a very small Sata flash
    (16 GB). But runs well with 2.5" hdd via usb (or sata)

    Runs Linux well, uses ubuntu. I also got a mini-mac, Core2Duo with 4 Gb
    ram for that kind of money. (30 euros I think)

    Also runs Ubuntu well

    Those above are 64-bit.
    I got some very cheap 32 bits as well - running debian



    --
    /Björn

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to All on Wed Sep 27 04:45:22 2023
    On 26/09/2023 20:41, Björn Lundin wrote:
    On 2023-09-26 16:28, Martin Gregorie wrote:
    On Tue, 26 Sep 2023 13:56:13 +0100, Bob Latham wrote:

    I'm sure you're right, it would help if I had a Linux machine proper.

    Take a look at eBay for used laptops,


    Or thin clients.
    I bought a Hp T510 and a fujitsu Futuro s720 for less than 20 euros
    CPU like a RPI 4 but AMD or Via, 4 gb RAM and a very small Sata flash
    (16 GB). But runs well with 2.5" hdd via usb (or sata)

    Runs Linux well, uses ubuntu. I also got a mini-mac, Core2Duo with 4 Gb
    ram for that kind of money. (30 euros I think)

    Also runs Ubuntu well

    Those above are 64-bit.
    I got some very cheap 32 bits as well - running debian



    Very good prices there.

    I am not sure I would trust a machine that cheap.

    --
    “I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most
    obvious truth if it be such as would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which
    they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives.”

    ― Leo Tolstoy

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From =?UTF-8?Q?Bj=c3=b6rn_Lundin?=@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Wed Sep 27 09:57:02 2023
    On 2023-09-27 05:45, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 26/09/2023 20:41, Björn Lundin wrote:
    On 2023-09-26 16:28, Martin Gregorie wrote:
    On Tue, 26 Sep 2023 13:56:13 +0100, Bob Latham wrote:

    I'm sure you're right, it would help if I had a Linux machine proper.

    Take a look at eBay for used laptops,


    Or thin clients.
    I bought a Hp T510 and a fujitsu Futuro s720 for less than 20 euros
    CPU like a RPI 4 but AMD or Via, 4 gb RAM and a very small Sata flash
    (16 GB). But runs well with 2.5" hdd via usb (or sata)

    Runs Linux well, uses ubuntu. I also got a mini-mac, Core2Duo with 4
    Gb ram for that kind of money. (30 euros I think)

    Also runs Ubuntu well

    Those above are 64-bit.
    I got some very cheap 32 bits as well - running debian



    Very good prices there.

    I am not sure I would trust a machine that cheap.

    But you trust a 5 euro rpi zero with a cf-card?

    These machine have no moving parts (fanless and flashdisk)
    I stuck spare hdd in them.
    But then again, they are part of my build farm, so they do not contain
    anything that important, they get code from github when needed

    The idea was to find x64 boxes that could build my system
    with a small energy footprint. so I also scaled down the CPU, locked it
    at 800 Mhz preventing it to go to 1.65 GHz


    --
    /Björn

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Pancho@3:770/3 to All on Wed Sep 27 09:08:26 2023
    On 27/09/2023 08:57, Björn Lundin wrote:


    But you trust a 5 euro rpi zero with a cf-card?

    These machine have no moving parts (fanless and flashdisk)
    I stuck spare hdd in them.
    But then again, they are part of my build farm, so they do not contain anything that important, they get code from github when needed

    The idea was to find x64 boxes that could build my system
    with a small energy footprint. so I also scaled down the CPU, locked it
    at 800 Mhz preventing it to go to 1.65 GHz


    What power does it consume at the plug?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Pancho@3:770/3 to All on Wed Sep 27 09:03:56 2023
    On 26/09/2023 20:41, Björn Lundin wrote:



    Or thin clients.
    I bought a Hp T510 and a fujitsu Futuro s720 for less than 20 euros
    CPU like a RPI 4 but AMD or Via, 4 gb RAM and a very small Sata flash
    (16 GB). But runs well with 2.5" hdd via usb (or sata)

    Runs Linux well, uses ubuntu. I also got a mini-mac, Core2Duo with 4 Gb
    ram for that kind of money. (30 euros I think)

    Also runs Ubuntu well

    Those above are 64-bit.
    I got some very cheap 32 bits as well - running debian



    The concern is power consumption, and that they are too old to support
    stuff like Wake on Lan.

    If you use a core duo for significant periods of time, and don't need a
    room heater, it is cheaper to buy something modern and low power.

    It is only if you want a computer that is only turned on occasionally,
    that such deals start to make sense.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From =?UTF-8?Q?Bj=c3=b6rn_Lundin?=@3:770/3 to Pancho on Wed Sep 27 10:16:14 2023
    On 2023-09-27 10:08, Pancho wrote:
    On 27/09/2023 08:57, Björn Lundin wrote:


    But you trust a 5 euro rpi zero with a cf-card?

    These machine have no moving parts (fanless and flashdisk)
    I stuck spare hdd in them.
    But then again, they are part of my build farm, so they do not contain
    anything that important, they get code from github when needed

    The idea was to find x64 boxes that could build my system
    with a small energy footprint. so I also scaled down the CPU, locked
    it at 800 Mhz preventing it to go to 1.65 GHz


    What power does it consume at the plug?

    its an AMD GX-217GA and they have TDP 15W
    But I think it is less if running at half speed.

    But power consumption at the plug I don't know

    --
    /Björn

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From =?UTF-8?Q?Bj=c3=b6rn_Lundin?=@3:770/3 to Pancho on Wed Sep 27 10:22:50 2023
    On 2023-09-27 10:03, Pancho wrote:
    On 26/09/2023 20:41, Björn Lundin wrote:




    The concern is power consumption, and that they are too old to support
    stuff like Wake on Lan.

    Some do have wake-on-Lan. The fujitsu does.


    If you use a core duo for significant periods of time, and don't need a
    room heater, it is cheaper to buy something modern and low power.

    the core2duo (minimac) has a TDW of 65 W, so that was most for fun.
    Not used, The fujitsu and HP is used quite a bit.

    And even if I buy something even less power-hungry, that will cost me more.
    And electricity is included in my rent.


    It is only if you want a computer that is only turned on occasionally,
    that such deals start to make sense.

    And that is the case



    https://www.parkytowers.me.uk/thin/hp/t510/
    says the HP consumes 19w at plug
    while the fujitsu consumes 11 W

    https://www.parkytowers.me.uk/thin/Futro/s720/



    But this is a bit off the raspberry pi topic




    --
    /Björn

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Pancho on Wed Sep 27 11:03:00 2023
    On 27/09/2023 09:03, Pancho wrote:
    If you use a core duo for significant periods of time, and don't need a
    room heater, it is cheaper to buy something modern and low power.

    Yes, I noticed that too!

    --
    Any fool can believe in principles - and most of them do!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to All on Wed Sep 27 11:02:18 2023
    On 27/09/2023 08:57, Björn Lundin wrote:
    On 2023-09-27 05:45, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 26/09/2023 20:41, Björn Lundin wrote:
    On 2023-09-26 16:28, Martin Gregorie wrote:
    On Tue, 26 Sep 2023 13:56:13 +0100, Bob Latham wrote:

    I'm sure you're right, it would help if I had a Linux machine proper. >>>>>
    Take a look at eBay for used laptops,


    Or thin clients.
    I bought a Hp T510 and a fujitsu Futuro s720 for less than 20 euros
    CPU like a RPI 4 but AMD or Via, 4 gb RAM and a very small Sata flash
    (16 GB). But runs well with 2.5" hdd via usb (or sata)

    Runs Linux well, uses ubuntu. I also got a mini-mac, Core2Duo with 4
    Gb ram for that kind of money. (30 euros I think)

    Also runs Ubuntu well

    Those above are 64-bit.
    I got some very cheap 32 bits as well - running debian



    Very good prices there.

    I am not sure I would trust a machine that cheap.

    But you trust a 5 euro rpi zero with a cf-card?

    yes, because its new, and didn't cost 500 when it was new ten years ago...

    These machine have no moving parts (fanless and flashdisk)
    I stuck spare hdd in them.

    So is my disintegrated laptop...

    But then again, they are part of my build farm, so they do not contain anything that important, they get code from github when needed

    The idea was to find x64 boxes that could build my system
    with a small energy footprint. so I also scaled down the CPU, locked it
    at 800 Mhz preventing it to go to 1.65 GHz

    Well low power means Arm - best MIPS for yer buck there is.





    --
    The theory of Communism may be summed up in one sentence: Abolish all
    private property.

    Karl Marx

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From =?UTF-8?Q?Bj=c3=b6rn_Lundin?=@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Wed Sep 27 13:12:50 2023
    On 2023-09-27 12:02, The Natural Philosopher wrote:


    But you trust a 5 euro rpi zero with a cf-card?

    yes, because its new, and didn't cost 500 when it was new ten years ago...


    So then I should not trust my pis from 2012?
    The Fujitsu went on the market 2014

    And I really doubt it cost 500 as new

    <https://www.fujitsu.com/global/about/resources/news/press-releases/2014/0514-03.html>

    state 59600 yen in 2014, which is about 380 euros



    The idea was to find x64 boxes that could build my system
    with a small energy footprint. so I also scaled down the CPU, locked
    it at 800 Mhz preventing it to go to 1.65 GHz


    Well low power means  Arm - best MIPS for yer buck there is.

    As I stated above : x64

    Arm is (usually) not x64, even though there was a discussion somewhere
    if x64 refers to only the intel instruction set or to all 64 bits
    instruction sets, including ARM64.

    To me it was obvious that I was talking intel instruction set, not
    ARM64. Perhaps that was a false assumption on my part.

    I do have an unmentioned constraint of a commercial compiler needing x86_64

    So, with 11W measured power consumption at 1.65 GHz <https://www.parkytowers.me.uk/thin/Futro/s720/>
    and then scaled down to 800 MHz,
    I think it is actually less power hungry than a PI 4

    --
    /Björn

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to All on Wed Sep 27 13:59:20 2023
    On 27/09/2023 12:12, Björn Lundin wrote:
    On 2023-09-27 12:02, The Natural Philosopher wrote:


    But you trust a 5 euro rpi zero with a cf-card?

    yes, because its new, and didn't cost 500 when it was new ten years
    ago...


    So then I should not trust my pis from 2012?
    The Fujitsu went on the market 2014

    And I really doubt it cost 500 as new

    <https://www.fujitsu.com/global/about/resources/news/press-releases/2014/0514-03.html>

    state 59600 yen in 2014, which is about 380 euros



    The idea was to find x64 boxes that could build my system
    with a small energy footprint. so I also scaled down the CPU, locked
    it at 800 Mhz preventing it to go to 1.65 GHz


    Well low power means  Arm - best MIPS for yer buck there is.

    As I stated above : x64

    Arm is (usually) not x64, even though there was a discussion somewhere
    if x64 refers to only the intel instruction set or to all 64 bits
    instruction sets, including ARM64.

    To me it was obvious that I was talking intel instruction set, not
    ARM64. Perhaps that was a false assumption on my part.


    No, my point was that if you wanted low power, you wouldnt buy x64.

    I do have an unmentioned constraint of a commercial compiler needing x86_64

    Ah. Hard to get that on ARM

    So, with 11W measured power consumption at 1.65 GHz <https://www.parkytowers.me.uk/thin/Futro/s720/>
    and then scaled down to 800 MHz,
    I think it is actually less power hungry than a PI 4

    Not sure about what I have here, but it runs pretty cool

    4 cores about 30°C rather than my old twin at 60°C.

    (Intel® Core™ i5-6600T CPU @ 2.70GHz × 4) sez the Linux.

    Case isn't warm and I hear no fans.

    Pi ZeroW is about 900mW!

    Pi's themselves do not have LCD screens that die, keyboards that wear
    out. plastic cases that turn to dust...touch screens that stop working...batteries that lose capacity. These are what go on laptops,
    hence my avoidance of uber cheap ones these days

    Desktops come with none of those - they last well


    --
    "And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch".

    Gospel of St. Mathew 15:14

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From =?UTF-8?Q?Bj=c3=b6rn_Lundin?=@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Wed Sep 27 15:39:52 2023
    On 2023-09-27 14:59, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    Pi's themselves do not have LCD screens that die, keyboards that wear
    out. plastic cases that turn to dust...touch screens that stop working...batteries that lose capacity. These are what go on laptops,
    hence my avoidance of uber cheap ones these days

    Desktops come with none of those - they last well

    Thin clients are desktops.
    The Pi4 needs 15w or it dies under load


    --
    /Björn

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Jim Jackson@3:770/3 to bnl@nowhere.com on Wed Sep 27 19:22:22 2023
    On 2023-09-27, Bj??rn Lundin <bnl@nowhere.com> wrote:
    The Pi4 needs 15w or it dies under load

    I beg your pardon. The official recommendation is for a 5V 3A power
    supply for the BOARD - so that there is at least 1 AMP for USB
    periperals etc.

    https://www.pidramble.com/wiki/benchmarks/power-consumption

    and other people who actually measure this stuff instead of guessing or
    woolly hand waving say it uses 6.4W with all 4 cores stressed.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From =?UTF-8?Q?Bj=c3=b6rn_Lundin?=@3:770/3 to Jim Jackson on Thu Sep 28 09:39:34 2023
    On 2023-09-27 21:22, Jim Jackson wrote:
    On 2023-09-27, Bj??rn Lundin <bnl@nowhere.com> wrote:
    The Pi4 needs 15w or it dies under load

    and other people who actually measure this stuff instead of guessing or woolly hand waving say it uses 6.4W with all 4 cores stressed.

    Interesting.
    I'll need to replace my power supply to my Pi4 then as
    It sometimes dies during compilation uses all cores.

    It does have a 5v, 3 A power supply.
    It is then a liar.


    --
    /Björn

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to All on Thu Sep 28 15:20:46 2023
    On 27/09/2023 14:39, Björn Lundin wrote:
    On 2023-09-27 14:59, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    Pi's themselves do not have LCD screens that die, keyboards that wear
    out. plastic cases that turn to dust...touch screens that stop
    working...batteries that lose capacity. These are what go on laptops,
    hence my avoidance of uber cheap ones these days

    Desktops come with none of those - they last well

    Thin clients are desktops.
    The Pi4 needs 15w or it dies under load


    What load?

    "The Pi 4 draws the following currents: 575 mA while idling. 885 mA
    while LXDE is being loaded. 600 mA to view 1080p video."

    Worst case 3W???

    --
    It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled. Mark Twain

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From David Higton@3:770/3 to bnl@nowhere.com on Thu Sep 28 20:08:52 2023
    In message <uf3ajm$3j70d$1@dont-email.me>
    Björn Lundin <bnl@nowhere.com> wrote:

    On 2023-09-27 21:22, Jim Jackson wrote:
    On 2023-09-27, Bj??rn Lundin <bnl@nowhere.com> wrote:
    The Pi4 needs 15w or it dies under load

    and other people who actually measure this stuff instead of guessing or woolly hand waving say it uses 6.4W with all 4 cores stressed.

    Interesting.
    I'll need to replace my power supply to my Pi4 then as
    It sometimes dies during compilation uses all cores.

    It does have a 5v, 3 A power supply.
    It is then a liar.

    Over the years I've come across three power supplies that would no longer deliver their rated current. The most likely explanation is that a low
    value resistor, used for current sensing, has gone high in value, or its
    solder joints are a bit dry.

    David

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From =?UTF-8?Q?Bj=c3=b6rn_Lundin?=@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Fri Sep 29 09:08:20 2023
    On 2023-09-28 16:20, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 27/09/2023 14:39, Björn Lundin wrote:
    On 2023-09-27 14:59, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    Pi's themselves do not have LCD screens that die, keyboards that wear
    out. plastic cases that turn to dust...touch screens that stop
    working...batteries that lose capacity. These are what go on laptops,
    hence my avoidance of uber cheap ones these days

    Desktops come with none of those - they last well

    Thin clients are desktops.
    The Pi4 needs 15w or it dies under load


    What load?

    compiling a 1.5 Mloc system with -j0.
    But now it seems like it is a bad power supply that is the culprit,
    as others has suggested



    --
    /Björn

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to All on Fri Sep 29 09:34:18 2023
    On 29/09/2023 08:08, Björn Lundin wrote:
    On 2023-09-28 16:20, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 27/09/2023 14:39, Björn Lundin wrote:
    On 2023-09-27 14:59, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    Pi's themselves do not have LCD screens that die, keyboards that
    wear out. plastic cases that turn to dust...touch screens that stop
    working...batteries that lose capacity. These are what go on
    laptops, hence my avoidance of uber cheap ones these days

    Desktops come with none of those - they last well

    Thin clients are desktops.
    The Pi4 needs 15w or it dies under load


    What load?

    compiling a 1.5 Mloc system with -j0.
    But now it seems like it is a bad power supply that is the culprit,
    as others has suggested


    In most case the power supply is over specced to allow USB devices to be powered. The fact that yours won't even drive the CPU is deeply
    suspicious...


    --
    Truth welcomes investigation because truth knows investigation will lead
    to converts. It is deception that uses all the other techniques.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to David Higton on Fri Sep 29 09:32:50 2023
    On 28/09/2023 20:08, David Higton wrote:
    In message <uf3ajm$3j70d$1@dont-email.me>
    Björn Lundin <bnl@nowhere.com> wrote:

    On 2023-09-27 21:22, Jim Jackson wrote:
    On 2023-09-27, Bj??rn Lundin <bnl@nowhere.com> wrote:
    The Pi4 needs 15w or it dies under load

    and other people who actually measure this stuff instead of guessing or
    woolly hand waving say it uses 6.4W with all 4 cores stressed.

    Interesting.
    I'll need to replace my power supply to my Pi4 then as
    It sometimes dies during compilation uses all cores.

    It does have a 5v, 3 A power supply.
    It is then a liar.

    Over the years I've come across three power supplies that would no longer deliver their rated current. The most likely explanation is that a low
    value resistor, used for current sensing, has gone high in value, or its solder joints are a bit dry.

    David

    SMPS's are strange beasts and can act in weird ways if capoacitors dry
    out for example .

    And the Pi *may* be sensitive to sagging input voltages

    Too many unknowns to be definitive

    --
    Truth welcomes investigation because truth knows investigation will lead
    to converts. It is deception that uses all the other techniques.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Jim Jackson@3:770/3 to Jim Jackson on Fri Sep 29 20:59:54 2023
    On 2023-09-29, Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> wrote:
    On 2023-09-28, Bj??rn Lundin <bnl@nowhere.com> wrote:
    On 2023-09-27 21:22, Jim Jackson wrote:
    On 2023-09-27, Bj??rn Lundin <bnl@nowhere.com> wrote:
    The Pi4 needs 15w or it dies under load

    and other people who actually measure this stuff instead of guessing or
    woolly hand waving say it uses 6.4W with all 4 cores stressed.

    Interesting.
    I'll need to replace my power supply to my Pi4 then as
    It sometimes dies during compilation uses all cores.

    It does have a 5v, 3 A power supply.
    It is then a liar.

    That is rather simplistic. It is probably that your supply is not
    delivering at the full voltage when more current is taken.

    Check in you syslog entries for entries indicating that the voltage has
    gone low. The onboard low 5v detection is given before the voltage has
    gone low enough tro make the board fail.

    I have a power supply that supplies a pi4 and an attached USB3 5inch
    ^^^^^

    whoops 3.5in

    harddrive, and when the drive is driven hard the current drawn draws the
    5v line down enough to trigger the low voltage warning - but luckily not enough to cause a board crash.

    Jim




    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Bob Latham@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Sun Oct 1 09:57:54 2023
    In article <ueuhcf$2g1lp$3@dont-email.me>,
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    You do need a working linux machine to utilise them though - they
    are not windows tools

    Booting a live CD/DVD/USB drive linux system will net you all you
    need for the duration.

    I've just spent a couple of days attempting to get debian 12 to run
    from a USB drive. The process involves creating an install usb device
    first. I managed this fine and it would boot up fine instead of the
    W10 on the C drive. :-)

    Then you boot to the install usb and then also plug in another usb
    drive on which the installer installs debian. I watched multiple
    video first to make sure I was up to speed. It's a long process.

    It takes the best part of an hour and then comes the point of booting
    debian from the new OS drive. Simply, it doesn't boot! It instantly
    without any preamble or error goes to a grey screen, dead as dead.

    I tried it in 3 pcs, same in all of them.
    Repeated the whole process, still the same.

    At this point I remembered why when nearly 20 years ago and had to
    use some linux at work I remembered how I hated it. :-(

    I may find the energy later to try ubuntu later, it looks a simpler
    install.

    I got thinking....

    Going back to shrinking a working project image.. Why not create
    another empty drive with roughly the correct but much smaller 2nd
    partition drive. First partition I presume fat32 and second ext4.

    Then copy the files across.

    Would that work?

    I still have the issue of saving it out somehow but would that be faster/easier?


    Cheers,

    Bob.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Bob Latham on Sun Oct 1 10:17:34 2023
    On 01/10/2023 09:57, Bob Latham wrote:
    In article <ueuhcf$2g1lp$3@dont-email.me>,
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    You do need a working linux machine to utilise them though - they
    are not windows tools

    Booting a live CD/DVD/USB drive linux system will net you all you
    need for the duration.

    I've just spent a couple of days attempting to get debian 12 to run
    from a USB drive. The process involves creating an install usb device
    first. I managed this fine and it would boot up fine instead of the
    W10 on the C drive. :-)

    Then you boot to the install usb and then also plug in another usb
    drive on which the installer installs debian. I watched multiple
    video first to make sure I was up to speed. It's a long process.

    I am not sure that would work. Though I cant quite work out why...I am thinking that the boot loader would need to be explicitly told to put a
    boot sector on the stick rather than on the PCs hard drive.

    It takes the best part of an hour and then comes the point of booting
    debian from the new OS drive. Simply, it doesn't boot! It instantly
    without any preamble or error goes to a grey screen, dead as dead.

    I tried it in 3 pcs, same in all of them.
    Repeated the whole process, still the same.

    Haven't you got a gash PC you could make 'linux only'?

    At this point I remembered why when nearly 20 years ago and had to
    use some linux at work I remembered how I hated it. :-(

    I may find the energy later to try ubuntu later, it looks a simpler
    install.

    Try Linux Mint, it is even simpler than Ubuntu

    They really went to town making it simple

    And things are not what they were 20 years ago,

    I got thinking....

    Going back to shrinking a working project image.. Why not create
    another empty drive with roughly the correct but much smaller 2nd
    partition drive. First partition I presume fat32 and second ext4.

    Then copy the files across.

    Would that work?

    Yes, but it is very slow and there might be issues if the partition IDs
    are different

    What is probably better is to install Raspios and *then* copy the
    [important] files across

    I still have the issue of saving it out somehow but would that be faster/easier?

    It might be.
    The problem you are having is like the problem I used to have with OS/X
    - there is this deep dark forest with this bright sunlit path through
    it, but it doesn't go to where you want to end up, and the moment you
    strike off through the forest there are no signposts whatsoever, just
    skeletons of those who went before.


    Cheers,

    Bob.


    --
    “it should be clear by now to everyone that activist environmentalism
    (or environmental activism) is becoming a general ideology about humans,
    about their freedom, about the relationship between the individual and
    the state, and about the manipulation of people under the guise of a
    'noble' idea. It is not an honest pursuit of 'sustainable development,'
    a matter of elementary environmental protection, or a search for
    rational mechanisms designed to achieve a healthy environment. Yet
    things do occur that make you shake your head and remind yourself that
    you live neither in Joseph Stalin’s Communist era, nor in the Orwellian utopia of 1984.”

    Vaclav Klaus

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Bob Latham@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Sun Oct 1 10:55:06 2023
    In article <ufbdfg$1g68o$1@dont-email.me>,
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 01/10/2023 09:57, Bob Latham wrote:
    In article <ueuhcf$2g1lp$3@dont-email.me>,
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    You do need a working linux machine to utilise them though -
    they are not windows tools

    Booting a live CD/DVD/USB drive linux system will net you all
    you need for the duration.

    I've just spent a couple of days attempting to get debian 12 to
    run from a USB drive. The process involves creating an install
    usb device first. I managed this fine and it would boot up fine
    instead of the W10 on the C drive. :-)

    Then you boot to the install usb and then also plug in another
    usb drive on which the installer installs debian. I watched
    multiple video first to make sure I was up to speed. It's a long
    process.

    I am not sure that would work. Though I cant quite work out
    why...I am thinking that the boot loader would need to be
    explicitly told to put a boot sector on the stick rather than on
    the PCs hard drive.

    It asks! During the building of the second drive it says it can only
    detect Windows Vista (I'm using W10) and claims it should be fine to
    place the boot loader on the C drive giving a choice at boot up.

    It also offers the choice to place it on any available drive. I stuck
    it on the new ext4 debian 12 usb drive. A fat lot of good that did.


    It takes the best part of an hour and then comes the point of
    booting debian from the new OS drive. Simply, it doesn't boot! It
    instantly without any preamble or error goes to a grey screen,
    dead as dead.

    I tried it in 3 pcs, same in all of them. Repeated the whole
    process, still the same.

    Haven't you got a gash PC you could make 'linux only'?

    Well I do have an unused for years XP upstairs but wife wants it
    gone. Keeps asking me to remove the hard disc. You do want me to
    survive this don't you?

    At this point I remembered why when nearly 20 years ago and had
    to use some linux at work I remembered how I hated it. :-(

    I may find the energy later to try ubuntu later, it looks a
    simpler install.

    Try Linux Mint, it is even simpler than Ubuntu

    They really went to town making it simple

    Ok, I'll look at that.

    And things are not what they were 20 years ago,

    Even worse you mean? :-)

    I got thinking....

    Going back to shrinking a working project image.. Why not create
    another empty drive with roughly the correct but much smaller 2nd
    partition drive. First partition I presume fat32 and second ext4.

    Then copy the files across.

    Would that work?

    Yes, but it is very slow and there might be issues if the partition
    IDs are different.

    Don't know about partition IDs.

    What is probably better is to install Raspios and *then* copy the
    [important] files across

    I can't recall how large the ext4 partition is after just an install,
    I'll have to look.

    I still have the issue of saving it out somehow but would that be faster/easier?

    It might be. The problem you are having is like the problem I used
    to have with OS/X - there is this deep dark forest with this
    bright sunlit path through it, but it doesn't go to where you want
    to end up, and the moment you strike off through the forest there
    are no signposts whatsoever, just skeletons of those who went
    before.

    Splendid image of the reality.

    Bob.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Bob Latham on Sun Oct 1 11:16:16 2023
    On 01/10/2023 10:55, Bob Latham wrote:
    Yes, but it is very slow and there might be issues if the partition
    IDs are different.

    Don't know about partition IDs.

    What partitions are mounted where is controlled by a file - /etc/fstab
    This *used* to specify which exact bit of *hardware* the drive was
    attached to,
    So /dev/sda was the *first* SATA port or whatever.
    Then people started hot plugging USB drives in and out and it was
    uncertain which *logical* port they would appear on, so the system was
    modified to give every partition a unique ID (UUID) so the boot loader
    would always load the correct partition, but no other.
    This has made it bloody difficult to grab a disk with a random partition
    and boot from it.




    What is probably better is to install Raspios and*then* copy the
    [important] files across
    I can't recall how large the ext4 partition is after just an install,
    I'll have to look.

    Not very big. There is a one time script that blows it up to fill the
    'disk' after first boot. You could copy files *after* that

    I still have the issue of saving it out somehow but would that be
    faster/easier?

    It might be. The problem you are having is like the problem I used
    to have with OS/X - there is this deep dark forest with this
    bright sunlit path through it, but it doesn't go to where you want
    to end up, and the moment you strike off through the forest there
    are no signposts whatsoever, just skeletons of those who went
    before.
    Splendid image of the reality.

    Do try Mint. It doesnt work any better once installed, but it is a heck
    of a sight easier to get installed. They went to a huge amount of
    trouble on the installation process, and it is built over ubuntu which
    is built on debian, but the work went in to making it very easy for
    windows uses to migrate to.

    There are I think four flavours. LXDE - very bare and basic - XFCE.
    likewise a bit bare and basic, MATE which is very XP like and Cinnamon
    which is very pretty but I find it less usable than MATE.

    https://linuxmint.com/download.php
    LXDE seems to no longer be offered

    Bob.


    --
    Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as
    foolish, and by the rulers as useful.

    (Seneca the Younger, 65 AD)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Bob Latham@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Sun Oct 1 20:25:16 2023
    In article <ufbgti$1griu$1@dont-email.me>,
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    Do try Mint. It doesnt work any better once installed, but it is a
    heck of a sight easier to get installed. They went to a huge
    amount of trouble on the installation process, and it is built
    over ubuntu which is built on debian, but the work went in to
    making it very easy for windows uses to migrate to.

    There are I think four flavours. LXDE - very bare and basic - XFCE.
    likewise a bit bare and basic, MATE which is very XP like and
    Cinnamon which is very pretty but I find it less usable than MATE.

    https://linuxmint.com/download.php LXDE seems to no longer be
    offered

    I've tried it! I tried MATE as you suggested. It was a far simpler
    process and it worked out of the box.

    It doesn't ask about Languages and assumes USA english which I found
    an issue setting up wifi password that contains a #. But wifi up and
    running and it remembers over a reboot.

    Yes, I will get around to partition shrinking but before then I tried
    sharing a folder via smb. No, looked it up on line how to do it, all
    the suggested menu options don't exist so I assume this is because
    it's on a usb device not a proper install. Shame cos without sharing
    it's about as much use as ...

    But later I'll try shrinking partitions - AGAIN.

    Bob.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Bob Latham on Sun Oct 1 21:59:52 2023
    On 01/10/2023 20:25, Bob Latham wrote:
    In article <ufbgti$1griu$1@dont-email.me>,
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    Do try Mint. It doesnt work any better once installed, but it is a
    heck of a sight easier to get installed. They went to a huge
    amount of trouble on the installation process, and it is built
    over ubuntu which is built on debian, but the work went in to
    making it very easy for windows uses to migrate to.

    There are I think four flavours. LXDE - very bare and basic - XFCE.
    likewise a bit bare and basic, MATE which is very XP like and
    Cinnamon which is very pretty but I find it less usable than MATE.

    https://linuxmint.com/download.php LXDE seems to no longer be
    offered

    I've tried it! I tried MATE as you suggested. It was a far simpler
    process and it worked out of the box.

    It usually does. I had a laptop and I tried debianm on it which motsly
    worked but didnt have half te software I wanted, then ubuntu which for
    some reason didn't work at all, then mint Mate. This has to be back
    around 2007.
    It Just Worked, and I have stuck with it ever since.
    For *what I want on a desktop* it is simply the best.
    On servers I am happy with any flavour of debian/ubuntu/mint/Raspios


    It doesn't ask about Languages and assumes USA english which I found
    an issue setting up wifi password that contains a #. But wifi up and
    running and it remembers over a reboot.

    It should ask what keyboard layout and what dictionaries to use somewhere. These are configurable vi the keyboard app and the language app in the
    control centre



    Yes, I will get around to partition shrinking but before then I tried
    sharing a folder via smb. No, looked it up on line how to do it, all
    the suggested menu options don't exist so I assume this is because
    it's on a usb device not a proper install. Shame cos without sharing
    it's about as much use as ...


    Oh, no that will work OK

    I don't use it these days but IIRC the safe and fast way to get it to
    work is to edit /etc/smb.conf

    I don't think it is installed by default on Mint however. Only the
    client, not the server.


    You need to use the synaptic package manager to install it (samba)

    Then the setup stuff will work.
    Samba is veryt solid these days



    But later I'll try shrinking partitions - AGAIN.

    Bob.


    --
    “it should be clear by now to everyone that activist environmentalism
    (or environmental activism) is becoming a general ideology about humans,
    about their freedom, about the relationship between the individual and
    the state, and about the manipulation of people under the guise of a
    'noble' idea. It is not an honest pursuit of 'sustainable development,'
    a matter of elementary environmental protection, or a search for
    rational mechanisms designed to achieve a healthy environment. Yet
    things do occur that make you shake your head and remind yourself that
    you live neither in Joseph Stalin’s Communist era, nor in the Orwellian utopia of 1984.”

    Vaclav Klaus

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to Bob Latham on Mon Oct 2 21:21:34 2023
    On Mon, 02 Oct 2023 20:32:53 +0100
    Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:

    Bloody Linux.

    I installed an operating system that doesn't have working SMB as
    standard. I then start googling how to add this essential. Would you
    believe there are chat sites with long scripts you have to run to add
    this.

    It's no fun getting Windows to talk NFS either. Still on my BSD NAS
    I just installed samba and edited smb4.conf to set up a bunch of SMB shares.

    I can so see why despite claims from the linux people that everything
    is sorted now and linux is just like windows the truth is anything

    What a horrible thought, what's the point of a difference that
    makes no difference?

    but. To do the simplest of day one things you're in the command line.

    Where else would you want to be ? All this new fangled gooey WIMP
    stuff will never catch on.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Jean-Pierre Kuypers on Tue Oct 3 08:50:08 2023
    On 02/10/2023 20:43, Jean-Pierre Kuypers wrote:
    In article (Dans l'article) <5aed2feb92bob@sick-of-spam.invalid>, Bob
    Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote (écrivait) :

    claims from the linux people that everything is sorted now and linux
    is just like windows

    Let's remain confident that the situation has not become so
    catastrophic, have we?...

    LOL!
    --
    For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and
    wrong.

    H.L.Mencken

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Bob Latham on Tue Oct 3 08:49:50 2023
    On 02/10/2023 20:32, Bob Latham wrote:
    In article <ufcmk9$2gith$1@dont-email.me>,
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 01/10/2023 20:25, Bob Latham wrote:

    I
    tried sharing a folder via smb. No, looked it up on line how to
    do it, all the suggested menu options don't exist so I assume
    this is because it's on a usb device not a proper install. Shame
    cos without sharing it's about as much use as ...


    Oh, no that will work OK

    I don't use it these days but IIRC the safe and fast way to get it
    to work is to edit /etc/smb.conf

    I don't think it is installed by default on Mint however. Only the
    client, not the server.

    Bloody Linux.

    I installed an operating system that doesn't have working SMB as
    standard. I then start googling how to add this essential. Would you
    believe there are chat sites with long scripts you have to run to add
    this.

    You need to use the synaptic package manager to install it (samba)

    I can so see why despite claims from the linux people that everything
    is sorted now and linux is just like windows the truth is anything
    but. To do the simplest of day one things you're in the command line.

    After 20 years plus still the same story.

    Then the setup stuff will work. Samba is veryt solid these days

    Linux is for geeks, not ordinary folk.

    No, its just not windows, that's all.

    If you install a distro that is optimised as desktop CLIENT why would
    you expect it to serve as a SERVER?

    The fundamental difference is the Linux is not 'install once and
    everything you never needed is now loaded on your computer, which is now
    as lively as Brian the snail'

    A core linux of what you *probably* want *most* is installed, and the
    rest *should you require it* is only three mouse clicks and a password away.


    Its the price you pay for flexibility and efficiency.

    Bob.


    --
    When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over
    the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that
    authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.

    Frédéric Bastiat

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Bob Latham@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Tue Oct 3 09:31:36 2023
    In article <ufgh2v$3ef71$12@dont-email.me>,
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 02/10/2023 20:32, Bob Latham wrote:
    In article <ufcmk9$2gith$1@dont-email.me>,
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 01/10/2023 20:25, Bob Latham wrote:


    [Snip]


    Then the setup stuff will work. Samba is veryt solid these days

    Linux is for geeks, not ordinary folk.

    No, its just not windows, that's all.

    If you install a distro that is optimised as desktop CLIENT why
    would you expect it to serve as a SERVER?

    I didn't know it was optimised in such a way, how would I know that?
    Did i have a choice in that decision?

    The fundamental difference is the Linux is not 'install once and
    everything you never needed is now loaded on your computer, which
    is now as lively as Brian the snail'

    Okay, I get that. Fair enough but....

    A core linux of what you *probably* want *most* is installed, and
    the rest *should you require it* is only three mouse clicks and a
    password away.

    1. Why isn't it just a switch in an add functionality box?

    Just like Control Panel => Programs and Features => Turn Windows
    Features On and Off. You switch something on and it installs what is
    needed automagically.

    2. Having failed 1 above, why is there not easy to find help to
    advise which mouse clicks?

    Its the price you pay for flexibility and efficiency.

    Not really is it?
    It's the price you pay for using an OS that doesn't give you easy to
    use functionality choices. It prefers to let you fish around on
    google for hours and still not find the answer.

    Imagine right button clicking a folder, an option in the menu is
    share folder. You click it. It then links you to a text file that
    explains the service needs to be installed and how to do it.

    Off and on, I've spent two days on this and still don't have the
    answers.


    Bob.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Bob Latham on Tue Oct 3 09:39:22 2023
    On 03/10/2023 09:11, Bob Latham wrote:
    In article <uff894$32fdh$3@dont-email.me>,
    druck <news@druck.org.uk> wrote:
    On 02/10/2023 20:32, Bob Latham wrote:
    In article <ufcmk9$2gith$1@dont-email.me>,
    I don't think it is installed by default on Mint however. Only the
    client, not the server.

    Bloody Linux.

    I installed an operating system that doesn't have working SMB as
    standard. I then start googling how to add this essential. Would
    you believe there are chat sites with long scripts you have to
    run to add this.

    As TNT says it has the client which allows you to access shares on
    Windows, it does not have the server installed by default, which
    isn't needed unless you want Windows machines to access shares on
    it.

    Yes, I get that fair enough.

    It's part of the Linux philosophy NOT to shovel in and enable every
    possible network service by default, potentially exposing security
    vulnerabilities.

    Yes, okay. But surely for a "sorted now" OS something better than
    this should be default now. Is it really that hard to add a switch
    just like in windows to enable features? A switch to enable samba
    server is that really a surrender? Maybe even another with
    *warnings*, about enabling SMB1 for those that need it.

    Does linux want to be main stream?

    It already is. More servers run Linux than anything else.
    Just not in PC world or Currys.

    Installing samba sever does not need long scripts, it is one apt
    install

    Not yet seen that command unless it's the same as for raspi ie.
    sudo apt-get install samba samba-common-bin
    Bet it isn't, that would be too easy. :)

    Of course its that easy.

    In fact, its even easier, because there is a nice windows like
    application called 'synaptic' that you will find in the main menu down
    the left hand column - its called 'package manager' . Windows doesn't
    have it, because you have to spend money to install things on Windows.
    This is free.

    If you invoke that and search for 'samba' and scroll down till you find
    the package called 'samba' and select it and than install that
    selection. Samba will magically be installed and due to the amazingly
    clever design of Linux you wont even have to reboot the computer



    and one config file to edit.

    smb.conf I assume. I am a little familiar with that.

    Google better chat sites!

    How do you know which ones are better than the linux mint chat group?

    Not had much luck yet with google searching. I've looked at this
    synaptic whatever and searched for samba and it lists dozens of files
    and packages do I need one or all of them - not much in the way of
    help or clues.

    just 'SAMBA' itself which is described as:

    "SMB/CIFS file, print, and login *server* for Unix."

    I can't believe it's so hard to get a "sorted" OS to share !!

    It isn't.

    It's just not dumbed down totally to the point of being unusable.

    Fundamentally you have installed a pretty good version of Linux, but you
    want to do something that isn't the installation default.

    So you need to learn how to install a package.

    That's all.

    Two ways - use the command line which is quicker if you are au fait with
    it, and know exactly what you want, or use synaptic to do it the
    'windows way'


    Bob.


    --
    Truth welcomes investigation because truth knows investigation will lead
    to converts. It is deception that uses all the other techniques.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Bob Latham@3:770/3 to druck on Tue Oct 3 09:11:56 2023
    In article <uff894$32fdh$3@dont-email.me>,
    druck <news@druck.org.uk> wrote:
    On 02/10/2023 20:32, Bob Latham wrote:
    In article <ufcmk9$2gith$1@dont-email.me>,
    I don't think it is installed by default on Mint however. Only the
    client, not the server.

    Bloody Linux.

    I installed an operating system that doesn't have working SMB as
    standard. I then start googling how to add this essential. Would
    you believe there are chat sites with long scripts you have to
    run to add this.

    As TNT says it has the client which allows you to access shares on
    Windows, it does not have the server installed by default, which
    isn't needed unless you want Windows machines to access shares on
    it.

    Yes, I get that fair enough.

    It's part of the Linux philosophy NOT to shovel in and enable every
    possible network service by default, potentially exposing security vulnerabilities.

    Yes, okay. But surely for a "sorted now" OS something better than
    this should be default now. Is it really that hard to add a switch
    just like in windows to enable features? A switch to enable samba
    server is that really a surrender? Maybe even another with
    *warnings*, about enabling SMB1 for those that need it.

    Does linux want to be main stream?

    Installing samba sever does not need long scripts, it is one apt
    install

    Not yet seen that command unless it's the same as for raspi ie.
    sudo apt-get install samba samba-common-bin
    Bet it isn't, that would be too easy. :)

    and one config file to edit.

    smb.conf I assume. I am a little familiar with that.

    Google better chat sites!

    How do you know which ones are better than the linux mint chat group?

    Not had much luck yet with google searching. I've looked at this
    synaptic whatever and searched for samba and it lists dozens of files
    and packages do I need one or all of them - not much in the way of
    help or clues.

    I can't believe it's so hard to get a "sorted" OS to share !!

    Bob.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Pancho@3:770/3 to Bob Latham on Tue Oct 3 09:52:04 2023
    On 03/10/2023 09:11, Bob Latham wrote:


    I can't believe it's so hard to get a "sorted" OS to share !!


    lol, difficult, compared to MS Windows workgroups, etc?

    I think you have rose-tinted spectacles.

    Nowadays, I have a magic combination of File Explorer menu commands and command line USE statements to mount and preserve remote network drive
    mounts on Windows. But on balance, I find Linux SAMBA/fstab mounts easier.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Bob Latham on Tue Oct 3 09:49:52 2023
    On 03/10/2023 09:31, Bob Latham wrote:
    In article <ufgh2v$3ef71$12@dont-email.me>,
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 02/10/2023 20:32, Bob Latham wrote:
    In article <ufcmk9$2gith$1@dont-email.me>,
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 01/10/2023 20:25, Bob Latham wrote:


    [Snip]


    Then the setup stuff will work. Samba is veryt solid these days

    Linux is for geeks, not ordinary folk.

    No, its just not windows, that's all.

    If you install a distro that is optimised as desktop CLIENT why
    would you expect it to serve as a SERVER?

    I didn't know it was optimised in such a way, how would I know that?
    Did i have a choice in that decision?

    The fundamental difference is the Linux is not 'install once and
    everything you never needed is now loaded on your computer, which
    is now as lively as Brian the snail'

    Okay, I get that. Fair enough but....

    A core linux of what you *probably* want *most* is installed, and
    the rest *should you require it* is only three mouse clicks and a
    password away.

    1. Why isn't it just a switch in an add functionality box?

    Just like Control Panel => Programs and Features => Turn Windows
    Features On and Off. You switch something on and it installs what is
    needed automagically.

    Interesting point. You might suggest that to the Mint developers. They
    did something very similar with device drivers


    2. Having failed 1 above, why is there not easy to find help to
    advise which mouse clicks?

    Its the price you pay for flexibility and efficiency.

    Not really is it?
    It's the price you pay for using an OS that doesn't give you easy to
    use functionality choices. It prefers to let you fish around on
    google for hours and still not find the answer.

    They are easy to use and easy tro find

    https://linuxgenie.net/how-to-install-and-configure-samba-on-linux-mint-21-2/

    the first thing I found


    Imagine right button clicking a folder, an option in the menu is
    share folder. You click it. It then links you to a text file that
    explains the service needs to be installed and how to do it.
    Linux is not windows, It doesn't do windows serving by default. No one
    dies windows serving by default. Windows serveing is a ghastly morass of permissions and restrictions. Even windows post about XOP wont allow you
    to share without delving into the registry from memory.

    Off and on, I've spent two days on this and still don't have the
    answers.

    Patience grasshopper. You are doing really well. Better than my 80+ year
    old friends do with their i-phones.

    Full of applications that they neither need nor want with no way to
    remove them and no way to shut them down, and a 'dont ring' button
    placed exactly where your thumb will press it when picking the phone up
    to talk. And an instruction manual that says 'before you start insert
    SIM' with no instructions as to who this is to be done whatsoever.
    And when you do get it going you need 'your apple psssword' 'your apple
    '; at various stages and they haven't a clue what those are.


    If you think Linux is shit, you don't own an I-phone where the merest
    brush against your face will terminate a call.


    Bob.


    --
    Labour - a bunch of rich people convincing poor people to vote for rich
    people by telling poor people that "other" rich people are the reason
    they are poor.

    Peter Thompson

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Pancho on Tue Oct 3 09:57:46 2023
    On 03/10/2023 09:52, Pancho wrote:
    On 03/10/2023 09:11, Bob Latham wrote:


    I can't believe it's so hard to get a "sorted" OS to share !!


    lol, difficult, compared to MS Windows workgroups, etc?


    https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/troubleshoot/windows-client/networking/cannot-access-shared-folder-file-explorer

    two pages of 'I cant get microsoft windows 10 to share files' support.

    I think you have rose-tinted spectacles.

    Nowadays, I have a magic combination of File Explorer menu commands  and command line USE statements to mount and preserve remote network drive
    mounts on Windows. But on balance, I find Linux SAMBA/fstab mounts easier.


    Since the divorce, and the OS/X gone with her, I don't use samba anymore
    But if someone turns up with a windows machine and needs access it can
    be installed in minutes

    And removed even faster.


    --
    “But what a weak barrier is truth when it stands in the way of an hypothesis!”

    Mary Wollstonecraft

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Bob Latham@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Tue Oct 3 11:24:18 2023
    In article <ufgkji$3fh4g$1@dont-email.me>,
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 03/10/2023 09:31, Bob Latham wrote:
    In article <ufgh2v$3ef71$12@dont-email.me>,
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 02/10/2023 20:32, Bob Latham wrote:
    In article <ufcmk9$2gith$1@dont-email.me>,
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 01/10/2023 20:25, Bob Latham wrote:


    [Snip]


    2. Having failed 1 above, why is there not easy to find help to
    advise which mouse clicks?

    Its the price you pay for flexibility and efficiency.

    Not really is it?
    It's the price you pay for using an OS that doesn't give you easy to
    use functionality choices. It prefers to let you fish around on
    google for hours and still not find the answer.

    They are easy to use and easy tro find

    https://linuxgenie.net/how-to-install-and-configure-samba-on-linux-mint-21-2/

    Trying that advice right now...

    the first thing I found

    Clearly you're better at the google action than me.

    Imagine right button clicking a folder, an option in the menu is
    share folder. You click it. It then links you to a text file that
    explains the service needs to be installed and how to do it.


    Linux is not windows,

    True. :-)

    It doesn't do windows serving by default. No
    one dies windows serving by default. Windows serveing is a ghastly
    morass of permissions and restrictions.

    That may be true but it works for me and easily.

    Even windows post about XOP wont allow you to share without delving
    into the registry from memory.

    Not been near the registry to get my PC sharing.

    Off and on, I've spent two days on this and still don't have the
    answers.


    Patience grasshopper. You are doing really well. Better than my 80+
    year old friends do with their i-phones.

    Thanks for that. :-)

    If you think Linux is shit, you don't own an I-phone where the
    merest brush against your face will terminate a call.

    I've given the wrong impression then. I don't think Linux is crap,
    not at all. I think it's fine especially for things like pi, routers,
    NAS boxes etc. The problem for me is one of finding information and
    realising that with a linux desktop you can do very, very little
    without getting into command line. It rubs me up the wrong way when
    folks talk about Linux desktop being as "sorted" as windows cos it
    ain't, not by a long, long way.

    Still trying to install samba....


    Bob.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Bob Latham on Tue Oct 3 12:06:00 2023
    On 03/10/2023 10:42, Bob Latham wrote:
    In article <ufgjvt$3fdl6$1@dont-email.me>,
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 03/10/2023 09:11, Bob Latham wrote:

    Does linux want to be main stream?

    It already is. More servers run Linux than anything else.
    Just not in PC world or Currys.

    Ordinary Joes do not work on servers. That is specialist. And before
    you say it, I know a samba share is a server but a very domestic one.

    Installing samba sever does not need long scripts, it is one apt
    install

    Not yet seen that command unless it's the same as for raspi ie.
    sudo apt-get install samba samba-common-bin
    Bet it isn't, that would be too easy. :)

    Of course its that easy.

    So is it exactly the same command?
    Important as other method failed see later...

    In fact, its even easier, because there is a nice windows like
    application called 'synaptic' that you will find in the main menu
    down the left hand column - its called 'package manager' .

    Okay, yes I've seen that and tried to use it.

    Windows doesn't have it, because you have to spend money to install
    things on Windows. This is free.

    Hmmm. Well yes you have to buy windows but you can add packages from
    control panel that install without extra cost.

    If you invoke that and search for 'samba' and scroll down till you
    find the package called 'samba' and select it and than install
    that selection.

    Samba will magically be installed and due to the
    amazingly clever design of Linux you wont even have to reboot the
    computer

    and one config file to edit.

    smb.conf I assume. I am a little familiar with that.

    Google better chat sites!

    How do you know which ones are better than the linux mint chat
    group?

    Not had much luck yet with google searching. I've looked at this
    synaptic whatever and searched for samba and it lists dozens of
    files and packages do I need one or all of them - not much in the
    way of help or clues.

    just 'SAMBA' itself which is described as:

    "SMB/CIFS file, print, and login *server* for Unix."

    Right I didn't know that package was down there I'll be honest. I did
    find it after your comments. Certainly anything but obvious way down
    the list following a search for just SAMBA. I assumed it would be all packages listed but was very unsure and hesitant to commit to that.

    I selected the package. I set it going. It advised about changes it
    was going to make.

    It downloaded some items and failed to download 3 others.


    W:Failed to fetch http://security.ubuntu.com/ubuntu//pool/main/s/samba/samba_4.15.13%2bdfsq-0ubuntu1.1_amd64.deb
    404 Not Found [IP:91:189.91.80]


    W:Failed to fetch http://security.ubuntu.com/ubuntu//pool/main/s/samba/samba-dsdb-modules_4.15%2bdfsq-0ubuntu1.1_amd64.deb
    404 Not Found [IP:91:189.91.80]


    W:Failed to fetch http://security.ubuntu.com/ubuntu//pool/main/s/samba/samba-vfs-modules_4.15.13%2bdfsq-0ubuntu1.1_amd64.deb
    404 Not Found [IP:91:189.91.80]


    "amazingly clever" :-)


    I can't believe it's so hard to get a "sorted" OS to share !!

    It isn't.

    Apparently, it is !!

    It's just not dumbed down totally to the point of being unusable.

    Providing switches, information and links would not have any impact
    to make it "unusable".

    Fundamentally you have installed a pretty good version of Linux,
    but you want to do something that isn't the installation default.

    I can agree that.

    So you need to learn how to install a package.

    Quite a task it seems.

    That's all.

    :-) :-)


    Two ways - use the command line which is quicker if you are au fait
    with it, and know exactly what you want, or use synaptic to do it
    the 'windows way'

    As the "windows way" failed, could you confirm the exact command
    please.

    sudo apt-get install samba -y.

    But it looks like you MAY have some issue unrelated to samba with your installations set to point to servers that are not present .

    Thank you.

    Bob.


    --
    Canada is all right really, though not for the whole weekend.

    "Saki"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Bob Latham on Tue Oct 3 12:13:28 2023
    On 03/10/2023 11:24, Bob Latham wrote:


    If you think Linux is shit, you don't own an I-phone where the
    merest brush against your face will terminate a call.

    I've given the wrong impression then. I don't think Linux is crap,
    not at all. I think it's fine especially for things like pi, routers,
    NAS boxes etc. The problem for me is one of finding information and
    realising that with a linux desktop you can do very, very little
    without getting into command line.

    That is simply not true. See Synaptic in this isntance.

    And even if it were, so what?

    It rubs me up the wrong way when
    folks talk about Linux desktop being as "sorted" as windows cos it
    ain't, not by a long, long way.

    It is.
    You just want it to work in the same way a massively overpriced piece of
    shit pre-installed on a computer by someone else and designed to sell,
    but not to work, operates.

    The point is that the reasons why linux works *better*, come at a price,
    and that price is learning the basics of how to install new software
    and update existing. Its no different from the apple store or google
    play on a mobile

    You have far more choices, but you have to learn how to exercise those
    choices

    Still trying to install samba....

    I don't like those 404 not found messages.

    If the installation fails with more of those, we may need to look into
    things more



    Bob.


    --
    Canada is all right really, though not for the whole weekend.

    "Saki"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Bob Latham@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Tue Oct 3 13:55:00 2023
    In article <ufguj4$3hg5q$3@dont-email.me>,
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 03/10/2023 12:31, Martin Gregorie wrote:
    On Tue, 03 Oct 2023 11:24:18 +0100, Bob Latham wrote:

    Still trying to install samba....

    Have you looked at this page? https://wiki.samba.org

    No I hadn't but I have now. I've had a reasonable look but it doesn't
    seem to tell me what I need to know, it's on another level. I looked
    at installation and it talks about

    Package dependences
    File system support
    Build samba from source
    Distribution specific Package Installation.

    I admit nothing there looks helpful to me, yes I'm thick.

    Or this one? https://www.liquidweb.com

    That appears to be an advert for a hosting company.

    But thanks for trying to help.


    Installing samba should be trivial,

    It should.

    but it looks like Bob has a weird and broken repository list.

    I've had this install a couple of days, I'm sure its exactly as it
    installed.

    Probably synaptic needs setting to its default repository and an
    update and upgrade performing, to normalise.

    Bob: Did you do those as part of the installation?

    sudo apt-get update
    sudo apt-get upgrade -y

    I did but to be honest, I'm not sure when. It may have been when
    following the instructions in the command line link you gave me.

    permissions permisions, permissions.


    Bob.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Jim Jackson@3:770/3 to Bob Latham on Tue Oct 3 12:49:16 2023
    On 2023-10-02, Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:
    Bloody Linux.

    I installed an operating system that doesn't have working SMB as
    standard. I then start googling how to add this essential. Would you
    believe there are chat sites with long scripts you have to run to add
    this.

    You need to use the synaptic package manager to install it (samba)

    I can so see why despite claims from the linux people that everything
    is sorted now and linux is just like windows the truth is anything
    but. To do the simplest of day one things you're in the command line.

    After 20 years plus still the same story.

    Then the setup stuff will work. Samba is veryt solid these days

    Linux is for geeks, not ordinary folk.

    Surely if you are messing around with Raspberry pi's like you are then
    you are a geek! Ordinary folk don't do that.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Bob Latham@3:770/3 to Jim Jackson on Tue Oct 3 14:02:38 2023
    In article <slrnuho3ed.hgf.jj@iridium.wf32df>,
    Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> wrote:

    Surely if you are messing around with Raspberry pi's like you are
    then you are a geek! Ordinary folk don't do that.

    :-)

    First off I didn't mean geek as an insult.
    Second I don't consider myself good enough to be a geek.

    I agree that normal folk don't mess like I do. :-)

    Bob.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Jim Jackson@3:770/3 to druck on Tue Oct 3 12:54:40 2023
    On 2023-10-02, druck <news@druck.org.uk> wrote:
    On 02/10/2023 20:32, Bob Latham wrote:
    In article <ufcmk9$2gith$1@dont-email.me>,
    I don't think it is installed by default on Mint however. Only the
    client, not the server.

    Bloody Linux.

    I installed an operating system that doesn't have working SMB as
    standard. I then start googling how to add this essential. Would you
    believe there are chat sites with long scripts you have to run to add
    this.

    As TNT says it has the client which allows you to access shares on
    Windows, it does not have the server installed by default, which isn't
    needed unless you want Windows machines to access shares on it.

    It's part of the Linux philosophy NOT to shovel in and enable every
    possible network service by default, potentially exposing security vulnerabilities.

    Installing samba sever does not need long scripts, it is one apt install
    and one config file to edit. Google better chat sites!

    Indeed, I googled

    linux raspberry pi installing smb server

    and got ...

    https://pimylifeup.com/raspberry-pi-samba/

    looks like this guy handholds you through it. However as I have already
    said, it one is doing this sort of stuff then you are de facto a geek
    and if one isn't upto the smarts to cope then any number of handholding tutorials aren't going to get one there.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Bob Latham@3:770/3 to Jim Jackson on Tue Oct 3 13:59:56 2023
    In article <slrnuho3oh.hgf.jj@iridium.wf32df>,
    Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> wrote:

    Indeed, I googled

    linux raspberry pi installing smb server

    and got ...

    https://pimylifeup.com/raspberry-pi-samba/

    looks like this guy handholds you through it. However as I have
    already said, it one is doing this sort of stuff then you are de
    facto a geek and if one isn't upto the smarts to cope then any
    number of handholding tutorials aren't going to get one there.

    I have been using samba shares on rasberrypi for at least 10 years.
    I've installed dozens of them and they work fine takes 10 minutes.

    One command to install.
    tweak smb.conf
    set passwords.
    restart server.

    Working

    But not so mint!

    Bob.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Bob Latham@3:770/3 to Bob Latham on Tue Oct 3 14:32:26 2023
    In article <5aed8f54a6bob@sick-of-spam.invalid>,
    Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:
    In article <ufguj4$3hg5q$3@dont-email.me>,
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    Bob: Did you do those as part of the installation?

    sudo apt-get update
    sudo apt-get upgrade -y

    I did but to be honest, I'm not sure when. It may have been when
    following the instructions in the command line link you gave me.

    permissions permisions, permissions.

    WORKING !!!!!

    Restarted all machines and it just worked. It even allowed me to
    enable the evil and dangerous SMB1 so that I could get RISC OS to
    connect and it did.

    Thanks everyone.

    Cheers,

    Bob.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Bob Latham@3:770/3 to David Higton on Tue Oct 3 16:21:44 2023
    In article <cb6a3aed5a.DaveMeUK@BeagleBoard-xM>,
    David Higton <dave@davehigton.me.uk> wrote:
    In message <5aed2feb92bob@sick-of-spam.invalid>
    Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:

    Bloody Linux.

    I installed an operating system that doesn't have working SMB as
    standard.

    Linux does /have/ working SMB as standard, but it's not /installed/
    as standard.

    Hmmm. If it's not installed, it's not working in my book. It does
    have potential to work.

    It's easy to install - both the client and the
    server.

    It is falling off a log easy to install *IF* *IF* *IF* you know how!

    If you want to install the client or server, just follow
    instructions from a good web site.

    Yes. When you find one.


    Bob.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Bob Latham on Tue Oct 3 17:15:12 2023
    On 03/10/2023 13:03, Bob Latham wrote:


    Permissions obviously but where??.

    smb.conf



    --
    Canada is all right really, though not for the whole weekend.

    "Saki"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From mm0fmf@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Tue Oct 3 17:40:02 2023
    On 03/10/2023 12:06, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 03/10/2023 10:42, Bob Latham wrote:
    In article <ufgjvt$3fdl6$1@dont-email.me>,
        The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 03/10/2023 09:11, Bob Latham wrote:

    Does linux want to be main stream?

    [A huge amount of painful deliberate cluelessness stripped]

    I think Bob's trolling here is some of the best I've seen on Usenet in
    2023. Blows R. Weiser straight out of the water.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From David Higton@3:770/3 to Bob Latham on Mon Oct 2 22:27:32 2023
    In message <5aed2feb92bob@sick-of-spam.invalid>
    Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:

    Bloody Linux.

    I installed an operating system that doesn't have working SMB as standard.

    Linux does /have/ working SMB as standard, but it's not /installed/ as standard. It's easy to install - both the client and the server. I
    only have the client installed on my Ubuntu installation because I
    don't need to share its drive. I've got shared NAS drives, which of
    course are on a Linux machine (a Raspberry Pi - it's good enough for
    my needs).

    If you want to install the client or server, just follow instructions
    from a good web site.

    David

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Bob Latham@3:770/3 to none@invalid.com on Tue Oct 3 19:13:16 2023
    In article <ufhg55$3l3ec$1@dont-email.me>,
    mm0fmf <none@invalid.com> wrote:
    On 03/10/2023 12:06, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 03/10/2023 10:42, Bob Latham wrote:
    In article <ufgjvt$3fdl6$1@dont-email.me>,
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 03/10/2023 09:11, Bob Latham wrote:

    Does linux want to be main stream?

    [A huge amount of painful deliberate cluelessness stripped]

    I think Bob's trolling here is some of the best I've seen on Usenet
    in 2023. Blows R. Weiser straight out of the water.

    And everyone had been so helpful and friendly and they got me there
    until...


    Cheers,

    Bob.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From druck@3:770/3 to Bob Latham on Tue Oct 3 21:02:28 2023
    On 03/10/2023 14:02, Bob Latham wrote:
    First off I didn't mean geek as an insult.
    Second I don't consider myself good enough to be a geek.

    We'll get you there Bob!

    ---druck

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Martin Gregorie@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Tue Oct 3 20:45:24 2023
    On Tue, 3 Oct 2023 17:15:13 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 03/10/2023 13:03, Bob Latham wrote:


    Permissions obviously but where??.

    smb.conf

    On this laptop, running fedora Linux, its full pathname is:

    /etc/samba/smb.conf

    There's a local manual page for it: running "man samba" shows the main man page, which lists a bunch of subpages, each dealing with some Samba
    subsystem or function, and all are accessible via the 'man' command.

    Alternatively, point your web browser at https://wiki.samba.org/index.php/Main_Page

    I'd suggest which way to go depends on your screen size: if its small then working with two console windows (24x80 monochrome), one for editing files
    etc and the other showing manpages is probably best, but if your screen is
    big enough to have a console window AND a web browser page open together without much overlap, then go for that.

    --

    Martin | martin at
    Gregorie | gregorie dot org

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From scott@alfter.diespammersdie.us@3:770/3 to Bob Latham on Wed Oct 4 16:04:14 2023
    Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:
    In article <cb6a3aed5a.DaveMeUK@BeagleBoard-xM>,
    David Higton <dave@davehigton.me.uk> wrote:
    In message <5aed2feb92bob@sick-of-spam.invalid>
    Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:
    I installed an operating system that doesn't have working SMB as
    standard.

    Linux does /have/ working SMB as standard, but it's not /installed/
    as standard.

    Hmmm. If it's not installed, it's not working in my book. It does
    have potential to work.

    Not everybody needs it. Of all the Linux systems I run, I think only two of them have Samba installed. Why should it be installed by default? That only increases the attack surface; any unused-but-installed software is one
    exploit away from getting your box pwned.

    If you need it for whatever reason, you install it. If you don't, you
    don't. It's no different than any other software you might use: webserver, email server, etc.

    --
    _/_
    / v \ Scott Alfter (remove the obvious to send mail)
    (IIGS( https://alfter.us/ Top-posting!
    \_^_/ >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Bob Latham@3:770/3 to scott@alfter.diespammersdie.us on Wed Oct 4 20:09:46 2023
    In article <32gTM.5$w4ec.4@fx14.iad>,
    <scott@alfter.diespammersdie.us> wrote:
    Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:

    Hmmm. If it's not installed, it's not working in my book. It does
    have potential to work.

    Not everybody needs it.

    True, probably.

    Of all the Linux systems I run, I think only two of them have Samba installed.

    I have :

    A Router, several Synology NAS boxes, Humax Freeview recorder, and
    around 10 raspberry pi machines, all Linux and all have SMB server on
    them.

    One reason why is text editing for scripts etc. I have an editor that
    I prefer to all others regardless of platform. This means that using
    a built in editor like nano is only used once to sort smb.conf.

    That editor is StrongED for RISCOS.

    Why should it be installed by default?

    I take your point but..

    As I've said before, when people come from Windows they expect
    similar functionality. If there was a control panel switch to switch
    it on then absolutely fine, leave it off as windows does for SMB1.

    That only increases the attack surface; any unused-but-installed
    software is one exploit away from getting your box pwned.

    Where do you draw the line? You're not safe the moment you connect to
    a network (SMB or not) especially a public network and as for using a
    browser on the net, well that's asking for trouble.

    If you need it for whatever reason, you install it. If you don't,
    you don't.

    True to an extent but certainly in the windows, world you don't need
    to start googling for such packages and how to install them on day 1.

    It's no different than any other software you might
    use: webserver, email server, etc.

    I note that you choose servers in your example. Yes it is SMB server
    that I required and yes it does offer a server service in the
    technical sense. But I don't consider it something that would
    suggest the machine running it should be in a server room as you
    might for web or mail servers.

    It's all a question of what you're used to really.


    Cheers,

    Bob.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Computer Nerd Kev@3:770/3 to scott@alfter.diespammersdie.us on Thu Oct 5 06:12:20 2023
    scott@alfter.diespammersdie.us wrote:
    Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:
    In article <cb6a3aed5a.DaveMeUK@BeagleBoard-xM>,
    David Higton <dave@davehigton.me.uk> wrote:
    In message <5aed2feb92bob@sick-of-spam.invalid>
    Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:
    I installed an operating system that doesn't have working SMB as
    standard.

    Linux does /have/ working SMB as standard, but it's not /installed/
    as standard.

    Hmmm. If it's not installed, it's not working in my book. It does
    have potential to work.

    Not everybody needs it. Of all the Linux systems I run, I think only two of them have Samba installed. Why should it be installed by default?

    I'd be happy if Windows came with NFS support installed by default.
    :)

    Instead I just use FTP for the rare times I still use Windows on my
    home LAN. I could of course complain in a Windows group that it's
    too hard to install NFS support so that it would work the same as
    my Linux systems, but I don't.

    --
    __ __
    #_ < |\| |< _#

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to Bob Latham on Wed Oct 4 21:38:28 2023
    On Wed, 04 Oct 2023 20:09:47 +0100
    Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:

    Where do you draw the line?

    Personally I draw the line a lot tighter than most linux
    distributions do.

    I use FreeBSD which has a minimal command line based OS as the
    core, largely defined by being self hosting and everything else (including
    X11) is a ported third party application available (usually) as a binary package or to build from source via the ports tree.

    You're not safe the moment you connect to
    a network (SMB or not) especially a public network

    You're perfectly safe if nothing is listening or reaching out that
    you don't directly control.

    and as for using a
    browser on the net, well that's asking for trouble.

    Certainly not - after installing the iso the first step is to pull
    any OS updates (freebsd-update) and apply them before installing whatever packages (pkg add) I might need on the box. All with simple command line
    tools - I expect to have everything set up before I launch any kind of GUI
    and that only happens on workstations most of my systems run headless and
    don't have browsers (or anything else not needed) installed.

    I am not a typical user.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Bob Latham on Thu Oct 5 00:05:08 2023
    On 04/10/2023 20:09, Bob Latham wrote:
    As I've said before, when people come from Windows they expect
    similar functionality. If there was a control panel switch to switch
    it on then absolutely fine, leave it off as windows does for SMB1.

    If you go to main menu->software manager->Internet there is a 'switch to
    switch it on'
    --
    “People believe certain stories because everyone important tells them,
    and people tell those stories because everyone important believes them.
    Indeed, when a conventional wisdom is at its fullest strength, one’s agreement with that conventional wisdom becomes almost a litmus test of
    one’s suitability to be taken seriously.”

    Paul Krugman

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Martin Gregorie@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Wed Oct 4 22:28:54 2023
    On Wed, 4 Oct 2023 21:38:28 +0100, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:

    On Wed, 04 Oct 2023 20:09:47 +0100 Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:
    You're not safe the moment you connect to a network (SMB or not)
    especially a public network

    You're perfectly safe if nothing is listening or reaching out that
    you don't directly control.

    You're also fairly safe if you've configured your LAN gateway
    appropriately, To me this means that you have *NO* ports in it that that
    accept incoming connection requests. This is the case for most services:

    - FTP requests for external documents are outbound requests, so are
    Linux software update requests

    - so are web content requests and search requests sent to search
    engines, unless you're hosting a website on your LAN. But IMO thats
    just stupid: by all means keep the master website copy on your LAN,
    but pay your ISP a small amount to host the public copy and use FTP
    or rsync (both controlled locally) to keep it in sync with your locally
    hosted master copy.

    - Mail can be worked the same way: allow incoming mail to collect in a
    mailbox on your ISP's system, and every 10 minutes or so, run getmail
    or fetchmail to collect incoming mail from your ISP's system and pass
    it to a local mail server: Postfix is really easy to configure and use,
    and something like Evolution is an excellent mail reader/writer.
    Outbound mail can either be sent directly to your outbox in your ISP's
    server or (better IMO), sent to your local mailserver for delivery to
    your outbox on your ISP's server.

    Almost any other requirement that involves moving data between the
    internet at large and systems on your local LAN can be handled safely by
    using a variant of one of the above schemes.

    and as for using a browser on the net, well that's asking for trouble.

    Not if you configure it properly, are using a browser like Firefox or
    Brave and have a copy of Lynx on hand for carefully examining possibly
    dodgy websites. I personally won't touch Chrome and its derivations, but
    YMMV.


    --

    Martin | martin at
    Gregorie | gregorie dot org

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Bob Latham@3:770/3 to Computer Nerd Kev on Thu Oct 5 08:33:50 2023
    In article <651dc724@news.ausics.net>,
    Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote:

    I'd be happy if Windows came with NFS support installed by default.
    :)

    So would I as it happens. A long story as to why but I do use both
    SMB and NFS (at the same time) to access my music library for admin
    purposes. I've not managed to get NFS working well on Windows.

    I could of course complain in a Windows group that it's too hard to
    install NFS support so that it would work the same as my Linux
    systems,

    And you'd be correct and I would support you.

    but I don't.

    Ouch !!


    Bob.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Bob Latham on Thu Oct 5 09:49:38 2023
    On 05/10/2023 09:23, Bob Latham wrote:
    In article <ufkr34$i857$1@dont-email.me>,
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 04/10/2023 20:09, Bob Latham wrote:

    As I've said before, when people come from Windows they expect
    similar functionality. If there was a control panel switch to
    switch it on then absolutely fine, leave it off as windows does
    for SMB1.

    If you go to main menu->software manager->Internet there is a
    'switch to switch it on'

    Just had a look at that and I can't deny what you say, it is there.
    Thank you for pointing it out.

    As I said before, the underlying philosophy is utterly different on
    Linux. Windows will bundle and *inatall* everything and provide a numpty
    way to switch it on (or fuck it up completely)

    Linux has a *huge* repository of software you *might* want to use but
    its simply too big to install it all - e.g. I have a Gerber file viewer installed. I bet you don't even know what its for, let alone have it
    installed.

    Likewise as regular lurkers know I have a full cross compile setup for
    Pi Picos.

    There is a point where 'doing it like windows' simply becomes impossible. Debian (on which Mint is ultimately based)made a decisions years ago to
    develop the idea of a respository of precompiled software with
    installations scripts, like the google play or apple pay and play or
    whatever its called.

    Obviously, I didn't see it before and I don't recall any web site or
    previous message post indicating it's existence.

    That part of Mint is quite recent and particular to Mint, and rather
    recondite.
    The ideas was to group all the available downloadable applications and libraries and provide a much more structured interface than synaptic.

    It is very much a work in progress.

    I suppose my google
    efforts only finding command line install commands led me away from
    that possibility. I'm *slightly* at odds with putting it under
    "internet" as the last thing you want to do is combine those two
    things but perhaps that's nit picking.

    I totally agree. It should be under 'networking'


    Out of interest, not having a pop or anything. I discovered that the
    samba install I used did not provide a share option in the folder
    menus, so I suppose users are intended to edit /etc/samba/smb.conf
    themselves by hand.

    TBH I am not sure.

    system-config-samba is mentioned on the web as being the GUI tool to
    manage samba but I have never used it

    I've since discovered and installed via command line caja-share samba
    which does add the option to the menus. I've not tried it yet but I
    presume it edits smb.conf for you.

    Almost certainly. nearly all pretty faced GUIs merely edit underlying
    config files and restart the associated daemon

    For future reference, I don't suppose "the switch" in software
    manager adds caja-share does it?

    No idea.


    --
    Those who want slavery should have the grace to name it by its proper
    name. They must face the full meaning of that which they are advocating
    or condoning; the full, exact, specific meaning of collectivism, of its
    logical implications, of the principles upon which it is based, and of
    the ultimate consequences to which these principles will lead. They must
    face it, then decide whether this is what they want or not.

    Ayn Rand.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Bob Latham@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Thu Oct 5 09:23:26 2023
    In article <ufkr34$i857$1@dont-email.me>,
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 04/10/2023 20:09, Bob Latham wrote:

    As I've said before, when people come from Windows they expect
    similar functionality. If there was a control panel switch to
    switch it on then absolutely fine, leave it off as windows does
    for SMB1.

    If you go to main menu->software manager->Internet there is a
    'switch to switch it on'

    Just had a look at that and I can't deny what you say, it is there.
    Thank you for pointing it out.

    Obviously, I didn't see it before and I don't recall any web site or
    previous message post indicating it's existence. I suppose my google
    efforts only finding command line install commands led me away from
    that possibility. I'm *slightly* at odds with putting it under
    "internet" as the last thing you want to do is combine those two
    things but perhaps that's nit picking.

    Out of interest, not having a pop or anything. I discovered that the
    samba install I used did not provide a share option in the folder
    menus, so I suppose users are intended to edit /etc/samba/smb.conf
    themselves by hand.

    I've since discovered and installed via command line caja-share samba
    which does add the option to the menus. I've not tried it yet but I
    presume it edits smb.conf for you.

    For future reference, I don't suppose "the switch" in software
    manager adds caja-share does it?

    Your message from early this morning had a profound tag message at
    the bottom. Both insightful and very true. I've made a note of it.

    Thanks.

    Cheers,

    Bob.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Chris Elvidge@3:770/3 to Bob Latham on Thu Oct 5 11:09:06 2023
    On 05/10/2023 08:33, Bob Latham wrote:
    In article <651dc724@news.ausics.net>,
    Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote:

    I'd be happy if Windows came with NFS support installed by default.
    :)

    So would I as it happens. A long story as to why but I do use both
    SMB and NFS (at the same time) to access my music library for admin
    purposes. I've not managed to get NFS working well on Windows.

    I could of course complain in a Windows group that it's too hard to
    install NFS support so that it would work the same as my Linux
    systems,

    And you'd be correct and I would support you.

    but I don't.

    Ouch !!


    Bob.


    Why don't you use ssh to connect? public key infrastructure, no passwords. https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-server/administration/openssh/openssh_install_firstuse?tabs=gui
    Linux tends to have it installed by default.

    PS Did you ever manage to shrink your SD card?

    --
    Chris Elvidge, England
    THE CAFETERIA DEEP FRYER IS NOT A TOY

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Bob Latham@3:770/3 to Chris Elvidge on Thu Oct 5 11:20:26 2023
    In article <ufm204$t27t$1@dont-email.me>,
    Chris Elvidge <chris@mshome.net> wrote:

    Why don't you use ssh to connect? public key infrastructure, no
    passwords.

    https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-server/administration/openssh/openssh_install_firstuse?tabs=gui

    Correct me if I'm wrong. I use samba a lot to look at scripts, and
    text files and the tags inside flac music files. These can be edited
    on another platform and returned and all using a gui not command
    line. I don't think you can do that with SSH can you?

    Linux tends to have it installed by default.

    It does yes.

    PS Did you ever manage to shrink your SD card?

    Yes and no. Yes, I've shrunken it a bit but not to the degree it
    should be possible, ie. partitions a little larger than the file
    storage and no unallocated space. And it gave me strange sizes I
    didn't understand. Still looking at it and now I have a laptop
    running mint.

    Bob.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Chris Elvidge@3:770/3 to Bob Latham on Thu Oct 5 12:34:06 2023
    On 05/10/2023 11:20, Bob Latham wrote:
    In article <ufm204$t27t$1@dont-email.me>,
    Chris Elvidge <chris@mshome.net> wrote:

    Why don't you use ssh to connect? public key infrastructure, no
    passwords.

    https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-server/administration/openssh/openssh_install_firstuse?tabs=gui

    Correct me if I'm wrong. I use samba a lot to look at scripts, and
    text files and the tags inside flac music files. These can be edited
    on another platform and returned and all using a gui not command
    line. I don't think you can do that with SSH can you?


    You can if you also install sshfs. Uses ssh as the connection protocol.
    E.g. I have a line in (slackware) /etc/fstab:

    celvi@10.0.2.3:/Users/celvi /media/celvi fuse.sshfs PasswordAuthentication=no,comment=sshfs,transform_symlinks,users,noexec,auto,allow_other,_netdev,delay_connect,identityfile=/home/chris/.ssh/id_rsa,uid=1000,gid=100,umask=0077
    0 0

    which connects to local windows box (at 10.0.2.3)
    I can double-click the icon on the desktop to open the window on the
    object directory. Changing a file here changes it on the host. Why would
    you think that samba and ssh are different in that respect? It will also
    be the same with NFS. All samba/sshfs/nfs do is make a remote directory
    appear as a local directory.


    Linux tends to have it installed by default.

    It does yes.

    PS Did you ever manage to shrink your SD card?

    Yes and no. Yes, I've shrunken it a bit but not to the degree it
    should be possible, ie. partitions a little larger than the file
    storage and no unallocated space. And it gave me strange sizes I
    didn't understand. Still looking at it and now I have a laptop
    running mint.

    Bob.


    Take your SD card and plug it into the mint laptop. Use gparted (gui
    version of parted = partition editor) to investigate/shrink. Easy!

    --
    Chris Elvidge, England
    I WAS NOT TOUCHED "THERE" BY AN ANGEL

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From David Higton@3:770/3 to Bob Latham on Thu Oct 5 14:19:02 2023
    In message <5aee79993ebob@sick-of-spam.invalid>
    Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:

    I've not managed to get NFS working well on Windows.

    That's PC compatibility for you.

    David

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Bob Latham@3:770/3 to Chris Elvidge on Thu Oct 5 14:10:30 2023
    In article <ufm6vg$u06b$1@dont-email.me>,
    Chris Elvidge <chris@mshome.net> wrote:
    On 05/10/2023 11:20, Bob Latham wrote:
    In article <ufm204$t27t$1@dont-email.me>,
    Chris Elvidge <chris@mshome.net> wrote:

    Why don't you use ssh to connect? public key infrastructure, no
    passwords.

    https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-server/administration/openssh/openssh_install_firstuse?tabs=gui

    Correct me if I'm wrong. I use samba a lot to look at scripts,
    and text files and the tags inside flac music files. These can be
    edited on another platform and returned and all using a gui not
    command line. I don't think you can do that with SSH can you?


    You can if you also install sshfs. Uses ssh as the connection
    protocol. E.g. I have a line in (slackware) /etc/fstab:

    celvi@10.0.2.3:/Users/celvi /media/celvi fuse.sshfs PasswordAuthentication=no,comment=sshfs,transform_symlinks,users,noexec,auto,allow_other,_netdev,delay_connect,identityfile=/home/chris/.ssh/id_rsa,uid=1000,gid=100,umask=0077
    0 0

    which connects to local windows box (at 10.0.2.3) I can
    double-click the icon on the desktop to open the window on the
    object directory. Changing a file here changes it on the host.

    I'll read up about that, thanks.

    Why would you think that samba and ssh are different in that
    respect?

    Only my experiences or lack there of. I thought SSH was a command
    line thing.

    Also, I should admit that my preferred platform of choice doesn't
    even have a fully working ssh client. The one it does have isn't good
    enough to handle sudo raspi-config output.

    It will also be the same with NFS.

    Ah yes, I do have an ssh client and I use it. However, I do find NFS
    useful but an odd system that I don't really understand if I'm honest.

    All samba/sshfs/nfs do is make a remote directory appear as a local directory.

    I knew samba/nfs I didn't know about sshfs probably because I very,
    very much doubt we have a client for it.


    Take your SD card and plug it into the mint laptop. Use gparted
    (gui version of parted = partition editor) to investigate/shrink.
    Easy!

    Thanks. I'm going to have a go at that ASAP.

    Cheers,

    Bob.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to Bob Latham on Thu Oct 5 15:13:26 2023
    On Thu, 05 Oct 2023 11:20:27 +0100
    Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:

    Correct me if I'm wrong. I use samba a lot to look at scripts, and
    text files and the tags inside flac music files. These can be edited
    on another platform and returned and all using a gui not command
    line. I don't think you can do that with SSH can you?

    There is sshfs but it is way less efficient than SMB or NFS.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to David Higton on Thu Oct 5 16:09:32 2023
    On 05/10/2023 14:19, David Higton wrote:
    In message <5aee79993ebob@sick-of-spam.invalid>
    Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:

    I've not managed to get NFS working well on Windows.

    Back in the day Sun's PC-NFS made me an awful lot of money as a product :-)


    That's PC compatibility for you.

    David

    --
    "I am inclined to tell the truth and dislike people who lie consistently.
    This makes me unfit for the company of people of a Left persuasion, and
    all women"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Bob Latham on Thu Oct 5 16:08:02 2023
    On 05/10/2023 11:20, Bob Latham wrote:
    In article <ufm204$t27t$1@dont-email.me>,
    Chris Elvidge <chris@mshome.net> wrote:

    Why don't you use ssh to connect? public key infrastructure, no
    passwords.

    https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-server/administration/openssh/openssh_install_firstuse?tabs=gui

    Correct me if I'm wrong. I use samba a lot to look at scripts, and
    text files and the tags inside flac music files. These can be edited
    on another platform and returned and all using a gui not command
    line. I don't think you can do that with SSH can you?

    You can. there is a file transfer protocol built over ssh. Microsoft
    supports it.
    I had forgotten that.

    Linux tends to have it installed by default.

    It does yes.

    PS Did you ever manage to shrink your SD card?

    Yes and no. Yes, I've shrunken it a bit but not to the degree it
    should be possible, ie. partitions a little larger than the file
    storage and no unallocated space. And it gave me strange sizes I
    didn't understand. Still looking at it and now I have a laptop
    running mint.

    Bob.


    --
    The higher up the mountainside
    The greener grows the grass.
    The higher up the monkey climbs
    The more he shows his arse.

    Traditional

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From scott@alfter.diespammersdie.us@3:770/3 to Bob Latham on Thu Oct 5 15:23:08 2023
    Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:
    In article <32gTM.5$w4ec.4@fx14.iad>,
    <scott@alfter.diespammersdie.us> wrote:
    Of all the Linux systems I run, I think only two of them have Samba
    installed.

    I have :

    A Router, several Synology NAS boxes, Humax Freeview recorder, and
    around 10 raspberry pi machines, all Linux and all have SMB server on
    them.

    One reason why is text editing for scripts etc. I have an editor that
    I prefer to all others regardless of platform. This means that using
    a built in editor like nano is only used once to sort smb.conf.

    Sounds like using a sledgehammer to swat a fly. You'd be much better off learning to use a text editor (you could even standardize on one, such as
    joe) through an SSH session. It'll have a much smaller footprint on every device, takes less time to install, less time to update, etc.

    --
    _/_
    / v \ Scott Alfter (remove the obvious to send mail)
    (IIGS( https://alfter.us/ Top-posting!
    \_^_/ >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From =?UTF-8?Q?Bj=C3=B6rn_Lundin?=@3:770/3 to scott@alfter.diespammersdie.us on Thu Oct 5 21:33:20 2023
    On 2023-10-05 17:23, scott@alfter.diespammersdie.us wrote:
    Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:
    In article <32gTM.5$w4ec.4@fx14.iad>,
    <scott@alfter.diespammersdie.us> wrote:
    Of all the Linux systems I run, I think only two of them have Samba
    installed.

    I have :

    A Router, several Synology NAS boxes, Humax Freeview recorder, and
    around 10 raspberry pi machines, all Linux and all have SMB server on
    them.

    One reason why is text editing for scripts etc. I have an editor that
    I prefer to all others regardless of platform. This means that using
    a built in editor like nano is only used once to sort smb.conf.

    Sounds like using a sledgehammer to swat a fly. You'd be much better off learning to use a text editor (you could even standardize on one, such as joe) through an SSH session. It'll have a much smaller footprint on every device, takes less time to install, less time to update, etc.



    Or use notepad++, with ftp-plugin.
    Despite its name it does sftp via ssh (or whatever that protocol is
    called. )

    That means you can edit files on servers without any config at all on
    Linux side,
    if the ssh server is installed (which many distros defaults it to)

    I haven't touched samba for years. This is way easier.
    It copies the file to your win-pc, you edit and on save it flies back,
    so make sure you are alone editing the file.





    --
    /Björn

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Martin Gregorie@3:770/3 to scott on Thu Oct 5 19:35:50 2023
    On Thu, 05 Oct 2023 15:23:08 GMT, scott wrote:

    Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:
    In article <32gTM.5$w4ec.4@fx14.iad>,
    <scott@alfter.diespammersdie.us> wrote:
    Of all the Linux systems I run, I think only two of them have Samba
    installed.

    I have :

    A Router, several Synology NAS boxes, Humax Freeview recorder, and
    around 10 raspberry pi machines, all Linux and all have SMB server on
    them.

    One reason why is text editing for scripts etc. I have an editor that I
    prefer to all others regardless of platform. This means that using a
    built in editor like nano is only used once to sort smb.conf.


    I've looked at nano don't like it. If you've got a Linux box with a colour graphical screen of at least, say 1200 x 800 or thereabouts, you could do
    a lot worse than try the 'gedit' text editor: its fast, has a decent
    toolbox of editing tools and can edit multiple files at once. Full details
    are here: https://wiki.gnome.org/Apps/Gedit

    Apart from that, I think its worth knowing 'vi'. You'll probably hate it
    at first, but its fast, and runs on any Linux system including those
    without any 'arrow keys' or working graphical display.

    Vi is almost guaranteed to be part of every Linux distribution, Its man
    page is pretty readable too. And there's version of it, vim, thats been
    ported to Windows.


    --

    Martin | martin at
    Gregorie | gregorie dot org

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From 56g.1173@3:770/3 to Bob Latham on Tue Dec 12 20:35:30 2023
    On 9/17/23 4:58 AM, Bob Latham wrote:
    Hi,

    I build images for projects on 4GB cards so that I can save a
    completed image without using too much disc space. My problem comes
    when I try to burn a new card from the saved image. Often it will not
    fit because there are small differences in the size of the cards.

    Does anyone know of a way to reduce the capacity of an SD card so
    that I can make a 4GB card maybe 3.5GB which would mean all cards
    could easily manage it and reduce the size of the save image.

    Even one byte diff in card size really IS a problem.
    You can't use 'dd' if the dest card is smaller. I
    recently had this prob with cards by the same maker,
    just slightly different models. 32gb is "approximate"
    size, doesn't mean *exactly* the same size.

    To shrink a PARTITION, the super-crude way is to yank
    the card out of the Pi and plug it into another Linux
    PC ... and use 'gparted'. Hard to do that on a
    card/partition that's "live" alas, hence the need to
    remove it and use another machine.

    Once shrunk, as the boot/grub stuff is still there, it
    will USUALLY boot ok ... but run 'update-grub' immediately
    just to keep things that way.

    I've taken to sizing partitions to leave a little bit of
    unused space at the end. In THEORY you can then use 'dd'
    and when it runs out of space on the smaller card, well,
    it was copying naught but zeros anyhow, nothing 'system'.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to All on Wed Dec 13 03:07:04 2023
    On 13/12/2023 01:35, 56g.1173 wrote:
    On 9/17/23 4:58 AM, Bob Latham wrote:
    <stuff>
    FFS this is three months old!
    WE solved it months ago.

    --
    Those who want slavery should have the grace to name it by its proper
    name. They must face the full meaning of that which they are advocating
    or condoning; the full, exact, specific meaning of collectivism, of its
    logical implications, of the principles upon which it is based, and of
    the ultimate consequences to which these principles will lead. They must
    face it, then decide whether this is what they want or not.

    Ayn Rand.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Bob Latham@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Wed Dec 13 10:59:32 2023
    In article <ulb74o$3ssh3$8@dont-email.me>,
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 13/12/2023 01:35, 56g.1173 wrote:
    On 9/17/23 4:58 AM, Bob Latham wrote:
    <stuff>
    FFS this is three months old!
    WE solved it months ago.

    I was young, I needed the money.

    Sorry wrong excuse,

    It wasn't me, I wasn't even there!
    So don't blame me.

    ;-)

    Bob.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)