• move /var/log to a RAMDISK

    From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to All on Sat Jul 29 18:34:44 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    Embedded Raspberry Pi Zero W. Minimal logs generated but I only use
    logs for debugging and why wear the SD card?

    My question is simple. If I make a 50MByte or so RAMDISK and mount it on /var/log, will the logging daemons recreate all the files and
    directories they need at boot time?


    I am barely using any memory on a headless server - there is room for a
    ramdisk

    # free -m
    total used free shared buff/cache
    available
    Mem: 429 61 131 3 237
    310
    Swap: 99 0 99

    --
    The theory of Communism may be summed up in one sentence: Abolish all
    private property.

    Karl Marx

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  • From David W. Hodgins@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Sat Jul 29 14:42:24 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On Sat, 29 Jul 2023 13:34:45 -0400, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    Embedded Raspberry Pi Zero W. Minimal logs generated but I only use
    logs for debugging and why wear the SD card?

    My question is simple. If I make a 50MByte or so RAMDISK and mount it on /var/log, will the logging daemons recreate all the files and
    directories they need at boot time?

    No. Files in /var are expected to survive reboot, so that's how the packages are configured.

    They are created during package installation. For example,
    $ rpm -q -l postgresql13-server|grep /var/log
    /var/log/postgres

    Looking at the spec file for the rpm package, it has ... %attr(700,postgres,postgres) %dir /var/log/postgres
    which is used by rpm to set the ownership and permissions.

    Regards, Dave Hodgins

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  • From Robert Heller@3:770/3 to tnp@invalid.invalid on Sat Jul 29 18:45:20 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    This is in fact the default behaviour for Armbian on my Banana Pi M64.

    If you want, I can send you the scripts used. They create the RAMDISK, copy the existing files on boot, then copy back during shutdown (so the log files are not lost).

    At Sat, 29 Jul 2023 18:34:45 +0100 The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:


    Embedded Raspberry Pi Zero W. Minimal logs generated but I only use
    logs for debugging and why wear the SD card?

    My question is simple. If I make a 50MByte or so RAMDISK and mount it on /var/log, will the logging daemons recreate all the files and
    directories they need at boot time?


    I am barely using any memory on a headless server - there is room for a ramdisk

    # free -m
    total used free shared buff/cache available
    Mem: 429 61 131 3 237
    310
    Swap: 99 0 99


    --
    Robert Heller -- Cell: 413-658-7953 GV: 978-633-5364
    Deepwoods Software -- Custom Software Services
    http://www.deepsoft.com/ -- Linux Administration Services
    heller@deepsoft.com -- Webhosting Services

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to David W. Hodgins on Sat Jul 29 19:54:24 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 29/07/2023 19:42, David W. Hodgins wrote:
    On Sat, 29 Jul 2023 13:34:45 -0400, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    Embedded Raspberry Pi Zero W. Minimal logs generated but  I only use
    logs for debugging and why wear the  SD card?

    My question is simple. If I make a 50MByte or so RAMDISK and mount it on
    /var/log, will the logging daemons recreate all the files and
    directories they need at boot time?

    No. Files in /var are expected to survive reboot, so that's how the
    packages
    are configured.

    They are created during package installation. For example,
    $ rpm -q -l postgresql13-server|grep /var/log
    /var/log/postgres

    Looking at the spec file for the rpm package, it has ... %attr(700,postgres,postgres) %dir /var/log/postgres
    which is used by rpm to set the ownership and permissions.

    Regards, Dave Hodgins
    I feared that might be the case.
    --
    "Nature does not give up the winter because people dislike the cold."

    ― Confucius

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Robert Heller on Sat Jul 29 20:42:12 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 29/07/2023 19:45, Robert Heller wrote:
    This is in fact the default behaviour for Armbian on my Banana Pi M64.

    If you want, I can send you the scripts used. They create the RAMDISK, copy the existing files on boot, then copy back during shutdown (so the log files are not lost).

    I can write that ok myself.
    However there would be no *controlled shutdown*. We are talking power cuts.
    The actual application does not write to SD disk at all, except for
    persistent configuration. Runtime files use a ram disk.

    So the aim is to limit random writes that might happend when power is
    pulled from under.
    In use the only likely things would be systemd which logs everything
    all the time, and apache.
    Exim might send a mail a month.

    Looking at the log files there is a huge amount of installation stuff
    that simply isn't needed, and stuff that appears at boot time that
    doesn't need to be preserved on power loss.

    So I guess this is really a more general discussion about how to reduce
    logging to a minimum, and reduce writing to persistent storage to a
    minimum as well

    I can set apache to log to a volatile storage area OK I think.
    And probably Exim too - mount ramdisks on /var/log/apache2 and
    /var/log/exim4

    The problem is that the whole*nix logging system is based on how a good minicomputer sysadmin would like things, not how an embedded linux
    running off an SD card needs to be :-)


    --
    "Nature does not give up the winter because people dislike the cold."

    ― Confucius

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  • From Robert Heller@3:770/3 to tnp@invalid.invalid on Sat Jul 29 20:35:48 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    At Sat, 29 Jul 2023 20:42:12 +0100 The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:


    On 29/07/2023 19:45, Robert Heller wrote:
    This is in fact the default behaviour for Armbian on my Banana Pi M64.

    If you want, I can send you the scripts used. They create the RAMDISK, copy
    the existing files on boot, then copy back during shutdown (so the log files
    are not lost).

    I can write that ok myself.
    However there would be no *controlled shutdown*. We are talking power cuts. The actual application does not write to SD disk at all, except for persistent configuration. Runtime files use a ram disk.

    So the aim is to limit random writes that might happend when power is
    pulled from under.
    In use the only likely things would be systemd which logs everything
    all the time, and apache.
    Exim might send a mail a month.

    Looking at the log files there is a huge amount of installation stuff
    that simply isn't needed, and stuff that appears at boot time that
    doesn't need to be preserved on power loss.

    So I guess this is really a more general discussion about how to reduce logging to a minimum, and reduce writing to persistent storage to a
    minimum as well

    Embeded servers (eg OpenWRT) mount /var from a ramdisk at boot, and likely initially populate it that file system from some "static" initial state (with all of the basic directory tree elements) at boot time. And then on reboot/power failure, all of that is just lost (discarded). (Most OpenWRT-based servers have the option of remote logging, if one wants persistent logs.)

    DRBL (Diskless Remote Boot Linux), also does this. It mounts the root (/) and /usr file systems read-only from the server and create RAMDISK file systems
    for /etc /var and /root (~root) and populates these FSs from pre-generated tarballs and rsyncs host specific content from a template tree at boot time
    and then discards them on shutdown.


    I can set apache to log to a volatile storage area OK I think.
    And probably Exim too - mount ramdisks on /var/log/apache2 and
    /var/log/exim4

    The problem is that the whole*nix logging system is based on how a good minicomputer sysadmin would like things, not how an embedded linux
    running off an SD card needs to be :-)



    --
    Robert Heller -- Cell: 413-658-7953 GV: 978-633-5364
    Deepwoods Software -- Custom Software Services
    http://www.deepsoft.com/ -- Linux Administration Services
    heller@deepsoft.com -- Webhosting Services

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  • From David W. Hodgins@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Sat Jul 29 17:24:28 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On Sat, 29 Jul 2023 15:42:12 -0400, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    The problem is that the whole*nix logging system is based on how a good minicomputer sysadmin would like things, not how an embedded linux
    running off an SD card needs to be :-)

    That's not a nix thing. Live iso images work fine with no permanent storage, though most have an option to have persistent storage too.

    While running a general purpose linux distribution installed on an sd card does work, they are not tailored for use on embedded systems.

    An embedded system should be designed to work like a live iso, but with essential
    data stored on persistent storage, and with only the minimum needed applications,
    and system tools.

    Regards, Dave Hodgins

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  • From David W. Hodgins@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Sat Jul 29 16:14:46 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On Sat, 29 Jul 2023 14:54:25 -0400, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 29/07/2023 19:42, David W. Hodgins wrote:
    On Sat, 29 Jul 2023 13:34:45 -0400, The Natural Philosopher
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    Embedded Raspberry Pi Zero W. Minimal logs generated but I only use
    logs for debugging and why wear the SD card?

    My question is simple. If I make a 50MByte or so RAMDISK and mount it on >>> /var/log, will the logging daemons recreate all the files and
    directories they need at boot time?

    No. Files in /var are expected to survive reboot, so that's how the
    packages
    are configured.

    They are created during package installation. For example,
    $ rpm -q -l postgresql13-server|grep /var/log
    /var/log/postgres

    Looking at the spec file for the rpm package, it has ...
    %attr(700,postgres,postgres) %dir /var/log/postgres
    which is used by rpm to set the ownership and permissions.

    I feared that might be the case.

    It can be done using scripts that hook into systemd, but is not easy, and may require changes to scripts with any package install that uses /var/log, and also risks losing parts of the logs in the case of an unclean shutdown, which is typically when you are going to want the logs.

    Regards, Dave Hodgins

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  • From Computer Nerd Kev@3:770/3 to Robert Heller on Sun Jul 30 10:22:12 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    In comp.os.linux.misc Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> wrote:
    At Sat, 29 Jul 2023 20:42:12 +0100 The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    Looking at the log files there is a huge amount of installation stuff
    that simply isn't needed, and stuff that appears at boot time that
    doesn't need to be preserved on power loss.

    So I guess this is really a more general discussion about how to reduce
    logging to a minimum, and reduce writing to persistent storage to a
    minimum as well

    Embeded servers (eg OpenWRT) mount /var from a ramdisk at boot, and likely initially populate it that file system from some "static" initial state (with all of the basic directory tree elements) at boot time. And then on reboot/power failure, all of that is just lost (discarded). (Most OpenWRT-based servers have the option of remote logging, if one wants persistent logs.)

    DRBL (Diskless Remote Boot Linux), also does this. It mounts the root (/) and
    /usr file systems read-only from the server and create RAMDISK file systems for /etc /var and /root (~root) and populates these FSs from pre-generated tarballs and rsyncs host specific content from a template tree at boot time and then discards them on shutdown.

    Yes a few distros are designed similar to that. The server computer
    on my home LAN (which also runs off an SD card) is set to only save /var/lib/hwclock between reboots. If you don't run a syslog daemon
    then logs from programs that send them to syslog don't go anywhere.
    Busybox comes with a syslogd implementation which can be started to
    show all log info in the terminal with "busybox syslogd -n -O -".
    So run that during development for debugging, then when it's all
    working, go syslog-free.

    On a system that isn't designed for temporary /var, if you just
    recreate empty directories in /var (those listed by
    "find /var -type d") after reboot, I expect all the programs that
    are already installed will create fresh files inside those
    directories by themselves.

    --
    __ __
    #_ < |\| |< _#

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  • From David W. Hodgins@3:770/3 to All on Sat Jul 29 23:27:54 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On Sat, 29 Jul 2023 20:22:13 -0400, Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> w
    On a system that isn't designed for temporary /var, if you just
    recreate empty directories in /var (those listed by
    "find /var -type d") after reboot, I expect all the programs that
    are already installed will create fresh files inside those
    directories by themselves.

    The owner, group, and permissions must be set correctly too.

    Regards, Dave Hodgins

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  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to Robert Heller on Sun Jul 30 05:27:40 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On Sat, 29 Jul 2023 20:35:49 +0000
    Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> wrote:

    Embeded servers (eg OpenWRT) mount /var from a ramdisk at boot, and
    likely initially populate it that file system from some "static" initial state (with all of the basic directory tree elements) at boot time.

    Another common technique is to overlay a ramdisk on a read-only
    file system so that the ram disk only holds the changes.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Robert Heller on Sun Jul 30 06:58:36 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 29/07/2023 21:35, Robert Heller wrote:
    Embeded servers (eg OpenWRT) mount /var from a ramdisk at boot, and likely initially populate it that file system from some "static" initial state (with all of the basic directory tree elements) at boot time. And then on reboot/power failure, all of that is just lost (discarded).

    That is an thought. Dont rely on fstab, but run a script.
    Really its only /var/log I care about. Rest of var can do as it pleases
    - its so little used ro write to.


    --
    Climate Change: Socialism wearing a lab coat.

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to David W. Hodgins on Sun Jul 30 07:38:56 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 30/07/2023 04:27, David W. Hodgins wrote:
    On Sat, 29 Jul 2023 20:22:13 -0400, Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> w
    On a system that isn't designed for temporary /var, if you just
    recreate empty directories in /var (those listed by
    "find /var -type d") after reboot, I expect all the programs that
    are already installed will create fresh files inside those
    directories by themselves.

    The owner, group, and permissions must be set correctly too.

    Regards, Dave Hodgins

    Well you would just copy /var/log to somewhere on persistent, delete all
    the files and then do a cp - R on reboot. Except that the first thing
    that happens on boot is the daemons fill up /var/log with boot messages :-(

    I note since its Sunday, that the newest log files have been created by
    the logrotate process and are all empty.

    Ah well. The smallest SD card I could easily get was 16GB, and RasPios
    and friends have only used 1.5GB.

    It will probably take a long time to wear out.

    --
    “The fundamental cause of the trouble in the modern world today is that
    the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt."

    - Bertrand Russell

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  • From Computer Nerd Kev@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Sun Jul 30 17:58:54 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    In comp.os.linux.misc The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 30/07/2023 04:27, David W. Hodgins wrote:
    On Sat, 29 Jul 2023 20:22:13 -0400, Computer Nerd Kev
    <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote:
    On a system that isn't designed for temporary /var, if you just
    recreate empty directories in /var (those listed by
    "find /var -type d") after reboot, I expect all the programs that
    are already installed will create fresh files inside those
    directories by themselves.

    The owner, group, and permissions must be set correctly too.

    Well you would just copy /var/log to somewhere on persistent, delete all
    the files and then do a cp - R on reboot. Except that the first thing
    that happens on boot is the daemons fill up /var/log with boot messages :-(

    This is of course not really the first thing that happens on boot,
    so if you can get in before the init system starts daemons then
    that solves your problem. I wouldn't like to try figuring out how
    to do that with something like Systemd, but then I avoid that sort
    of thing anyway. Busybox has a simple init system, good for
    embedded systems.

    Ah well. The smallest SD card I could easily get was 16GB, and RasPios
    and friends have only used 1.5GB.

    It will probably take a long time to wear out.

    I was curious about this once too - does a 16GB SD card where only
    1.5GB is used last longer than say a 2GB card? I couldn't find a
    conclusive answer online, except that an SD card's unlikely to be
    near as smart about wear levelling as an SSD is.

    --
    __ __
    #_ < |\| |< _#

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  • From Theo@3:770/3 to David W. Hodgins on Sun Jul 30 10:24:30 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    In comp.sys.raspberry-pi David W. Hodgins <dwhodgins@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
    On Sat, 29 Jul 2023 13:34:45 -0400, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    Embedded Raspberry Pi Zero W. Minimal logs generated but I only use
    logs for debugging and why wear the SD card?

    My question is simple. If I make a 50MByte or so RAMDISK and mount it on /var/log, will the logging daemons recreate all the files and
    directories they need at boot time?

    No. Files in /var are expected to survive reboot, so that's how the packages are configured.

    They are created during package installation. For example,
    $ rpm -q -l postgresql13-server|grep /var/log
    /var/log/postgres

    Looking at the spec file for the rpm package, it has ... %attr(700,postgres,postgres) %dir /var/log/postgres
    which is used by rpm to set the ownership and permissions.

    The directory structure may be created by the package manager on install,
    but the files are created on the fly. In other words I might have /var/log/foo/error.log - foo is a directory that needs to exist, but if I delete error.log it'll be created next time there's something to go in
    there. This is commonly used by 'logrotate', which moves old files and compresses them, allowing new files to be created for future log entries.

    So all you really need to do is reproduce the directory structure:

    find /var/log -type d -exec mkdir -p "/tmp/{}" \;

    which reproduces /var/log/foo/bar/ to /tmp/var/log/foo/bar/

    Theo

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Theo on Sun Jul 30 15:45:54 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 30/07/2023 10:24, Theo wrote:
    In comp.sys.raspberry-pi David W. Hodgins <dwhodgins@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
    On Sat, 29 Jul 2023 13:34:45 -0400, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    Embedded Raspberry Pi Zero W. Minimal logs generated but I only use
    logs for debugging and why wear the SD card?

    My question is simple. If I make a 50MByte or so RAMDISK and mount it on >>> /var/log, will the logging daemons recreate all the files and
    directories they need at boot time?

    No. Files in /var are expected to survive reboot, so that's how the packages >> are configured.

    They are created during package installation. For example,
    $ rpm -q -l postgresql13-server|grep /var/log
    /var/log/postgres

    Looking at the spec file for the rpm package, it has ...
    %attr(700,postgres,postgres) %dir /var/log/postgres
    which is used by rpm to set the ownership and permissions.

    The directory structure may be created by the package manager on install,
    but the files are created on the fly. In other words I might have /var/log/foo/error.log - foo is a directory that needs to exist, but if I delete error.log it'll be created next time there's something to go in
    there. This is commonly used by 'logrotate', which moves old files and compresses them, allowing new files to be created for future log entries.

    So all you really need to do is reproduce the directory structure:

    find /var/log -type d -exec mkdir -p "/tmp/{}" \;

    which reproduces /var/log/foo/bar/ to /tmp/var/log/foo/bar/

    Theo
    Now that is interesting, and if I leave the old /var/log there, and
    mount a ramdisk over it, provided that the ramdisk is *immediately*
    populated and directories created, then all should work?

    I guess I have to learn how to add a script to systemd :-(


    --
    “People believe certain stories because everyone important tells them,
    and people tell those stories because everyone important believes them.
    Indeed, when a conventional wisdom is at its fullest strength, one’s agreement with that conventional wisdom becomes almost a litmus test of
    one’s suitability to be taken seriously.”

    Paul Krugman

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  • From Rich@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Sun Jul 30 15:25:00 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    In comp.os.linux.misc The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 30/07/2023 10:24, Theo wrote:
    The directory structure may be created by the package manager on
    install, but the files are created on the fly. In other words I
    might have /var/log/foo/error.log - foo is a directory that needs to
    exist, but if I delete error.log it'll be created next time there's
    something to go in there. This is commonly used by 'logrotate',
    which moves old files and compresses them, allowing new files to be
    created for future log entries.

    So all you really need to do is reproduce the directory structure:

    find /var/log -type d -exec mkdir -p "/tmp/{}" \;

    which reproduces /var/log/foo/bar/ to /tmp/var/log/foo/bar/

    Theo

    Now that is interesting, and if I leave the old /var/log there, and
    mount a ramdisk over it, provided that the ramdisk is *immediately*
    populated and directories created, then all should work?

    You /may/ need to trigger the logging deamon to redo the files. With traditional syslog that would be send the log deamon's a sighub. With
    systemd I have no idea how to do this as none of my linux systems
    contain systemd.

    I guess I have to learn how to add a script to systemd :-(

    True. Hopefully there is a way.

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  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Sun Jul 30 16:23:42 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On Sun, 30 Jul 2023 15:45:54 +0100
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    Now that is interesting, and if I leave the old /var/log there, and
    mount a ramdisk over it, provided that the ramdisk is *immediately*
    populated and directories created, then all should work?

    I guess I have to learn how to add a script to systemd :-(

    You might like this approach it layers a ramdisc over an existing filesystem.

    https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/339496/mounting-var-as-overlayfs

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

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  • From John-Paul Stewart@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Sun Jul 30 11:34:02 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 7/30/23 10:45, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 30/07/2023 10:24, Theo wrote:
    So all you really need to do is reproduce the directory structure:

    find /var/log -type d -exec mkdir -p "/tmp/{}" \;

    which reproduces /var/log/foo/bar/ to /tmp/var/log/foo/bar/

    Theo
    Now that is interesting, and if I leave the old /var/log there, and
    mount a ramdisk over it, provided that the ramdisk is *immediately*
    populated and directories created, then all should work?

    Any process that has a log file open before you mount the ramdisk won't automatically start using it. The process will still have the open file
    handle to the original, disk-based file instead. So you'll either need
    to be sure to mount the ramdisk sufficiently early in the boot sequence
    to ensure that no daemons have opened their logfiles yet, or you'll need
    to signal those daemons reopen their logs. Most do that in response to
    SIGHUP. Logrotate often uses that mechanism after rotating logs, so its configuration can help you figure out what needs to be done after
    mounting the ramdisk if programs are still logging to disk.

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  • From David W. Hodgins@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Sun Jul 30 12:40:24 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On Sun, 30 Jul 2023 10:45:54 -0400, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    Now that is interesting, and if I leave the old /var/log there, and
    mount a ramdisk over it, provided that the ramdisk is *immediately*
    populated and directories created, then all should work?

    I guess I have to learn how to add a script to systemd :-(

    I would add an entry to fstab to handle the mount ...
    mylog /var/log tmpfs defaults,user,size=1G 1 1

    Copy the directory structure from /var/log somewhere else such as /my/log.

    copy /usr/lib/systemd/system/systemd-remount-fs.service to /etc/systemd/system/,
    (create the dir if it doesn't exist already), then modify the /etc service to add a second ExecStart to run a script that copies the directory structure from /my log to /var/log.

    Run "dracut -f" and reboot.

    If you later install something that creates a directory in /var/log, just create
    a directory with that name, owner, group, and permissions in /my/log.

    Make a backup on a second sd card first though, just in case! :-)

    Regards, Dave Hodgins

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  • From David W. Hodgins@3:770/3 to Carlos E.R. on Sun Jul 30 17:13:02 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On Sun, 30 Jul 2023 16:39:26 -0400, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
    A systemd system might not have syslog, but journal, and non permanent
    (not on disk). It may use temporary files, though.

    With systemd, systemd-journald collects messages during early boot, in ram. The in ram copy is flushed to persistent storage shortly after the / filesystem is remounted rw over the ro / filesystem from the initrd.

    That's why I recommend adding an extra ExecStart to systemd-remount-fs.service to set up the directory structure in a tmpfs mount of /var/log right after
    the / filesystem is ready to accept writes. That way it's done before the journal or, if present, rsyslogd starts writing to /var/log.

    Regards, Dave Hodgins

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  • From Carlos E.R.@3:770/3 to Computer Nerd Kev on Sun Jul 30 22:39:26 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 2023-07-30 09:58, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
    In comp.os.linux.misc The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 30/07/2023 04:27, David W. Hodgins wrote:
    On Sat, 29 Jul 2023 20:22:13 -0400, Computer Nerd Kev
    <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote:
    On a system that isn't designed for temporary /var, if you just
    recreate empty directories in /var (those listed by
    "find /var -type d") after reboot, I expect all the programs that
    are already installed will create fresh files inside those
    directories by themselves.

    The owner, group, and permissions must be set correctly too.

    Well you would just copy /var/log to somewhere on persistent, delete all
    the files and then do a cp - R on reboot. Except that the first thing
    that happens on boot is the daemons fill up /var/log with boot messages :-(

    This is of course not really the first thing that happens on boot,
    so if you can get in before the init system starts daemons then
    that solves your problem. I wouldn't like to try figuring out how
    to do that with something like Systemd, but then I avoid that sort
    of thing anyway.

    On my desktop machine, using openSUSE Leap, the service
    "bootmsg.service" initializes some the logs. Writes "var/log/boot.msg",
    for instance.

    Syslog and or journal are services, so you can create the files before
    any of those two services run. For instance, I have my own "boot-marker.service" which writes a timestamp to /var/log/messages:

    [Unit]
    Description=Write boot markers in /var/log/messages
    Before=syslog.service

    [Service]
    Type=oneshot
    RemainAfterExit=true
    ExecStart=-/root/ThingsNeededForBoot/write-boot-marker start ExecStop=-/root/ThingsNeededForBoot/write-boot-marker stop

    [Install]
    WantedBy=multi-user.target



    A systemd system might not have syslog, but journal, and non permanent
    (not on disk). It may use temporary files, though.




    --
    Cheers, Carlos.

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  • From 23k.302@3:770/3 to David W. Hodgins on Sun Jul 30 21:54:36 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 7/29/23 2:42 PM, David W. Hodgins wrote:
    On 7/30/23 10:45, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 30/07/2023 10:24, Theo wrote:
    So all you really need to do is reproduce the directory structure:

    find/var/log -type d -exec mkdir -p "/tmp/{}" \;

    which reproduces/var/log/foo/bar/ to/tmp/var/log/foo/bar/

    Theo
    Now that is interesting, and if I leave the old /var/log there, and
    mount a ramdisk over it, provided that the ramdisk is*immediately*
    populated and directories created, then all should work?
    Any process that has a log file open before you mount the ramdisk won't automatically start using it. The process will still have the open file handle to the original, disk-based file instead. So you'll either need
    to be sure to mount the ramdisk sufficiently early in the boot sequence
    to ensure that no daemons have opened their logfiles yet, or you'll need
    to signal those daemons reopen their logs. Most do that in response to SIGHUP. Logrotate often uses that mechanism after rotating logs, so its configuration can help you figure out what needs to be done after
    mounting the ramdisk if programs are still logging to disk.


    Hmm ... MIGHT be able to make that work with minimal
    pain using systemd. It has 'depends on','run after' and
    such params. He could init the ramdisk REALLY early in a
    quasi-structured/quasi-safe environment.

    Not everyone likes systemd - but it DOES have its uses.

    Another trick is to just make the ramdisk whenever and
    then make /var/log into a symlink/mountpoint. Yes, there'd
    be some early stuff still in the real /var/log, but maybe
    that's not important for him.

    However I'd rec ramdisks for where they're more useful.
    I have an app that does a lot of image manipulation
    before the results are shown via PHP/Apache on a Pi.
    I don't want any of that to be reading/writing to the
    SD card - too slow AND burns it out - but I did want
    access to be "normal", like with any 'real' drive. A
    small ramdisk was by far the best/easiest solution.

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  • From David Taylor@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Mon Jul 31 07:45:32 2023
    On 29/07/2023 18:34, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    Embedded Raspberry Pi Zero W. Minimal logs generated but I only use
    logs for debugging and why wear the SD card?

    My question is simple. If I make a 50MByte or so RAMDISK and mount it on /var/log, will the logging daemons recreate all the files and
    directories they need at boot time?

    Would this be of any interest?

    https://github.com/openenergymonitor/emonpi/blob/master/rpi-ro


    --
    Cheers,
    David
    Web: https://www.satsignal.eu

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Rich on Mon Jul 31 10:11:06 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 30/07/2023 16:25, Rich wrote:
    In comp.os.linux.misc The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 30/07/2023 10:24, Theo wrote:
    The directory structure may be created by the package manager on
    install, but the files are created on the fly. In other words I
    might have /var/log/foo/error.log - foo is a directory that needs to
    exist, but if I delete error.log it'll be created next time there's
    something to go in there. This is commonly used by 'logrotate',
    which moves old files and compresses them, allowing new files to be
    created for future log entries.

    So all you really need to do is reproduce the directory structure:

    find /var/log -type d -exec mkdir -p "/tmp/{}" \;

    which reproduces /var/log/foo/bar/ to /tmp/var/log/foo/bar/

    Theo

    Now that is interesting, and if I leave the old /var/log there, and
    mount a ramdisk over it, provided that the ramdisk is *immediately*
    populated and directories created, then all should work?

    You /may/ need to trigger the logging deamon to redo the files. With traditional syslog that would be send the log deamon's a sighub. With systemd I have no idea how to do this as none of my linux systems
    contain systemd.

    A cursory glance at systemd reveals a huge potential flaw in it, or at
    least that is my understanding.

    There is no order of execution of systemd scripts. They all get executed
    in parallel. Instead there are dependencies, which I THINK are
    encapsulated in the scripts as 'depends upon', not 'is depended on by'.
    So a standalone systemd script wont do the job. Instead one would
    probably have to find the mount script and add a patch to that.


    I guess I have to learn how to add a script to systemd :-(

    True. Hopefully there is a way.

    --
    "Strange as it seems, no amount of learning can cure stupidity, and
    higher education positively fortifies it."

    - Stephen Vizinczey

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Computer Nerd Kev on Mon Jul 31 09:57:54 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 30/07/2023 08:58, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
    Ah well. The smallest SD card I could easily get was 16GB, and RasPios
    and friends have only used 1.5GB.

    It will probably take a long time to wear out.
    I was curious about this once too - does a 16GB SD card where only
    1.5GB is used last longer than say a 2GB card? I couldn't find a
    conclusive answer online, except that an SD card's unlikely to be
    near as smart about wear levelling as an SSD is.

    I think that SD cards (apart from a very few) have no sophisticated wear levelling *at all*.

    From what I could find out they never map *already written* sectors to
    new ones so the old sectors get their allocation of writes, too.

    My guess is that they would probably *at best* allocate new blocks to
    writes till they ran out.

    Then sequentially reuse all the already used but 'erased' blocks. That
    sort of behaviour would work well for e.g. camera SD cards which get
    full but no so often


    So, the more blocks the merrier.

    If they are *really* cheap they wont do anything at all and there will
    be a 1:1 correlation between physical and logical sectors, in which case
    it doesn't matter how big they are, they will wear out the directory and
    sector allocation sectors without ever using the majority of the card.

    I am not sure if e.g. linux can map out bad sectors in those areas. I
    suspect not.

    My other Pi zero has been on for about 3 years now, writing the log
    files. and rotating them. It doesn't do a lot - its simple allows me to
    access and play my recorded music and the radio to one of the home hi fis.


    --
    “People believe certain stories because everyone important tells them,
    and people tell those stories because everyone important believes them.
    Indeed, when a conventional wisdom is at its fullest strength, one’s agreement with that conventional wisdom becomes almost a litmus test of
    one’s suitability to be taken seriously.”

    Paul Krugman

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to David W. Hodgins on Mon Jul 31 10:17:22 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 30/07/2023 17:40, David W. Hodgins wrote:
    On Sun, 30 Jul 2023 10:45:54 -0400, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    Now that is interesting, and if I leave the old /var/log there,
    and mount a ramdisk over it, provided that the ramdisk is
    *immediately* populated and directories created, then all should
    work?

    I guess I have to learn how to add a script to systemd :-(

    I would add an entry to fstab to handle the mount ... mylog /var/log
    tmpfs defaults,user,size=1G 1 1

    Pi Zero only has 512M RAM!

    Copy the directory structure from /var/log somewhere else such as
    /my/log.

    copy /usr/lib/systemd/system/systemd-remount-fs.service to /etc/systemd/system/, (create the dir if it doesn't exist already),
    then modify the /etc service to add a second ExecStart to run a
    script that copies the directory structure from /my log to /var/log.


    Ah. That is interesting. Patching the mount service *itself*. That
    sounds like a plan, unless any updates wipe out the config...but who
    bothers to update an embedded system that Just Works?


    Run "dracut -f" and reboot.

    Can you explain why that would be necessary?

    If you later install something that creates a directory in /var/log,
    just create a directory with that name, owner, group, and
    permissions in /my/log.

    Make a backup on a second sd card first though, just in case! :-)

    Regards, Dave Hodgins

    --
    No Apple devices were knowingly used in the preparation of this post.

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  • From Richard Kettlewell@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Mon Jul 31 12:21:56 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:
    There is no order of execution of systemd scripts. They all get
    executed in parallel. Instead there are dependencies, which I THINK
    are encapsulated in the scripts as 'depends upon', not 'is depended on
    by'. So a standalone systemd script wont do the job. Instead one
    would probably have to find the mount script and add a patch to that.

    AFAICS all the dependency options have reverses, see the table in systemd.unit(5).

    There are both functional dependencies (e.g. Wants/WantedBy) and
    ordering dependencies (e.g. After/Before). If you want to serialize
    startup you’ll need both.

    --
    https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

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  • From Rich@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Mon Jul 31 13:25:28 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    In comp.os.linux.misc The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    I think that SD cards (apart from a very few) have no sophisticated
    wear levelling *at all*.

    Given their race to the bottom price wise, this is a reasonably safe assumption.

    If they are *really* cheap they wont do anything at all and there
    will be a 1:1 correlation between physical and logical sectors, in
    which case it doesn't matter how big they are, they will wear out the directory and sector allocation sectors without ever using the
    majority of the card.

    I am not sure if e.g. linux can map out bad sectors in those areas.
    I suspect not.

    If the hardware does not handle bad sector replacement then you'd need
    to run a Linux filesystem that does do so on top. For an SD card,
    that would likely best be one of the 'flash' filesystems. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_file_system#Linux_flash_filesystems

    As to which might be best for an SD card that might have minimal to no
    on card wear leveling I can not say.

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  • From Robert Heller@3:770/3 to Rich on Mon Jul 31 15:11:34 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    At Mon, 31 Jul 2023 13:25:28 -0000 (UTC) Rich <rich@example.invalid> wrote:


    In comp.os.linux.misc The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    I think that SD cards (apart from a very few) have no sophisticated
    wear levelling *at all*.

    Given their race to the bottom price wise, this is a reasonably safe assumption.

    If they are *really* cheap they wont do anything at all and there
    will be a 1:1 correlation between physical and logical sectors, in
    which case it doesn't matter how big they are, they will wear out the directory and sector allocation sectors without ever using the
    majority of the card.

    I am not sure if e.g. linux can map out bad sectors in those areas.
    I suspect not.

    If the hardware does not handle bad sector replacement then you'd need
    to run a Linux filesystem that does do so on top. For an SD card,
    that would likely best be one of the 'flash' filesystems. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_file_system#Linux_flash_filesystems

    As to which might be best for an SD card that might have minimal to no
    on card wear leveling I can not say.

    I've been using SanDisk Class 10 uSD cards in various PIs, with the machines running continiously for years without errors. Some of these machines have survived multiple power failures without problems. Several of these machines
    I use as "build boxes". I have been using good old Ext4 as the FS.





    --
    Robert Heller -- Cell: 413-658-7953 GV: 978-633-5364
    Deepwoods Software -- Custom Software Services
    http://www.deepsoft.com/ -- Linux Administration Services
    heller@deepsoft.com -- Webhosting Services

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Robert Heller on Mon Jul 31 19:59:48 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 31/07/2023 16:11, Robert Heller wrote:
    At Mon, 31 Jul 2023 13:25:28 -0000 (UTC) Rich <rich@example.invalid> wrote:


    In comp.os.linux.misc The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote: >>> I think that SD cards (apart from a very few) have no sophisticated
    wear levelling *at all*.

    Given their race to the bottom price wise, this is a reasonably safe
    assumption.

    If they are *really* cheap they wont do anything at all and there
    will be a 1:1 correlation between physical and logical sectors, in
    which case it doesn't matter how big they are, they will wear out the
    directory and sector allocation sectors without ever using the
    majority of the card.

    I am not sure if e.g. linux can map out bad sectors in those areas.
    I suspect not.

    If the hardware does not handle bad sector replacement then you'd need
    to run a Linux filesystem that does do so on top. For an SD card,
    that would likely best be one of the 'flash' filesystems.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_file_system#Linux_flash_filesystems

    As to which might be best for an SD card that might have minimal to no
    on card wear leveling I can not say.

    I've been using SanDisk Class 10 uSD cards in various PIs, with the machines running continiously for years without errors. Some of these machines have survived multiple power failures without problems. Several of these machines I use as "build boxes". I have been using good old Ext4 as the FS.

    Indeed. People DO have failures, but I can find no really clear data on
    *why* they fail in a Pi situation






    --
    Renewable energy: Expensive solutions that don't work to a problem that
    doesn't exist instituted by self legalising protection rackets that
    don't protect, masquerading as public servants who don't serve the public.

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  • From mm0fmf@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Tue Aug 1 08:08:54 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 29/07/2023 18:34, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    Embedded Raspberry Pi Zero W. Minimal logs generated but  I only use
    logs for debugging and why wear the  SD card?

    My question is simple. If I make a 50MByte or so RAMDISK and mount it on /var/log, will the logging daemons recreate all the files and
    directories they need at boot time?



    Works fine for me. Pi W running Raspbian (Debian 11 version)

    Cron job reboots it every morning so I don't worry about ramdisk filling up.

    $ df -h
    Filesystem Size Used Avail Use% Mounted on
    /dev/root 7.0G 2.1G 4.7G 31% /
    devtmpfs 183M 0 183M 0% /dev
    tmpfs 215M 0 215M 0% /dev/shm
    tmpfs 86M 2.7M 84M 4% /run
    tmpfs 5.0M 0 5.0M 0% /run/lock
    tmpfs 100M 8.0K 100M 1% /tmp
    tmpfs 100M 176K 100M 1% /var/log
    tmpfs 30M 0 30M 0% /var/spool/mqueue
    tmpfs 30M 0 30M 0% /var/tmp
    /dev/mmcblk0p1 253M 51M 202M 20% /boot
    tmpfs 43M 0 43M 0% /run/user/1001

    Logging works and everything needed seems to be created on boot.

    $ ls /var/log -la
    total 180
    drwxr-xr-x 3 root root 260 Aug 1 05:33 .
    drwxr-xr-x 11 root root 4096 Jan 11 2021 ..
    -rw-r----- 1 root adm 23843 Aug 1 08:06 auth.log
    -rw-rw---- 1 root utmp 3072 Aug 1 08:03 btmp
    -rw-r----- 1 root adm 21318 Aug 1 08:00 daemon.log
    -rw-r----- 1 root adm 1032 Aug 1 05:33 debug
    -rw------- 1 root root 2559 Aug 1 08:03 fail2ban.log
    -rw-r----- 1 root adm 26940 Aug 1 05:33 kern.log
    -rw-rw-r-- 1 root utmp 292584 Aug 1 08:00 lastlog
    -rw-r----- 1 root adm 26239 Aug 1 05:33 messages
    drwx------ 2 root root 40 Aug 1 05:33 private
    -rw-r----- 1 root adm 50106 Aug 1 08:00 syslog
    -rw-rw-r-- 1 root utmp 1920 Aug 1 08:00 wtmp

    It's been running like this on the same SDCARD for 2+ years.

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Robert Heller on Tue Aug 1 09:58:12 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 31/07/2023 21:27, Robert Heller wrote:
    At Mon, 31 Jul 2023 19:59:48 +0100 The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    Indeed. People DO have failures, but I can find no really clear data on
    *why* they fail in a Pi situation

    Ultra "cheap" no-name brand uSD cards?

    Possibly, again, no direct evidence, sadly.

    Its another of those details that Pi users probably need to know, but no
    one else cares about.,

    There are SD cards for data transfer - video capture - and sd cards for multiple use like cameras.

    no one sells one for a lot of micro writes...

    --
    “it should be clear by now to everyone that activist environmentalism
    (or environmental activism) is becoming a general ideology about humans,
    about their freedom, about the relationship between the individual and
    the state, and about the manipulation of people under the guise of a
    'noble' idea. It is not an honest pursuit of 'sustainable development,'
    a matter of elementary environmental protection, or a search for
    rational mechanisms designed to achieve a healthy environment. Yet
    things do occur that make you shake your head and remind yourself that
    you live neither in Joseph Stalin’s Communist era, nor in the Orwellian utopia of 1984.”

    Vaclav Klaus

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  • From John-Paul Stewart@3:770/3 to druck on Tue Aug 1 15:21:26 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 7/31/23 16:36, druck wrote:

    On Bullseye and later the largest amount of logging activity to disc is bloody systemd's journald, which by default will grow /var/log/journal/*
    to 2GB, taking up valuable space on SD cards and severely reducing their write life.

    Two things you can do; first as fucking Peottering always knows best,
    there is no way of turning off journald and just using the god given
    rsyslog, but you can stop journald logging to disc and just keep it in
    RAM instead by adding the following to /etc/systemd/journald.conf

    Storage=volatile
    RuntimeMaxUse=32M
    RuntimeMaxFileSize=32M
    ForwardToConsole=no
    ForwardToWall=no

    Secondly stop systemd spamming /var/log/syslog with all sorts of crap
    you have no interest in. Create a file called /etc/rsyslog.d/drop.systemd.conf containing

    # Drop messages from f***ing systemd
    :programname,startswith,"systemd" stop

    Thanks for posting that!

    I'm not the OP, but I still found that info immensely useful for a
    totally different reason. And I'm probably not the only one who doesn't
    want to waste a day sifting through the systemd and journalctl docs to
    figure it out for myself.

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  • From Dennis Lee Bieber@3:770/3 to All on Tue Aug 1 15:35:28 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On Tue, 1 Aug 2023 14:25:33 +0100, Dave <dave@cyw.uklinux.net> declaimed
    the following:


    There are "Application Performance Class" cards now available which
    focus on I/O operations per second instead of raw streaming read/write >speeds. They are identified as class A1 and A2. Sandisk seems to be the
    main supplier.

    One would hope that these cards would have wear levelling set up to
    handle lots of small I/O operations but I suspect that's not part of the >spec...

    I'd expect the main feature to be: how many allocation units can be kept open at one time.

    Class 10 cards are rated for streaming to a newly formatted card -- and with FAT file systems, they only need to keep two allocation units open.
    The FAT and the streamed file, and cheaper cards only allow for that.
    Opening a second file for I/O requires flushing the current allocation unit
    to the actual flash rather than RAM-type buffer, finding a free allocation
    unit (erasing it to all 1s), loading it (copying any data from the old allocation unit if the file is being /reopened/ before marking that old one free).

    Class 2/4/6 were rated for still image operations on cards with deletions. They often support 4-6 parallel open allocation units.

    On a journal ling file system, having lots of open allocation units is desirable.

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  • From Pancho@3:770/3 to Robert Heller on Tue Aug 1 21:47:56 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 7/29/23 19:45, Robert Heller wrote:
    This is in fact the default behaviour for Armbian on my Banana Pi M64.


    +1, :-) I was just thinking, I spent ages undoing this, in order to
    find out why my system was crashing. But I'm running Armbian.

    TNP, FFS, SD cards cost buttons. Pack of two 32GB for less than a
    tenner. If you are worried about wear, clone a new one every year, or
    whatever.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From druck@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Tue Aug 1 21:30:58 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 01/08/2023 11:03, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    Where in RAM does it keep it, or is that only known the the Great
    Poettering, who has provided some buggy tool to access it?

    It's stored in /run/log/journal (/run is tmpfs in RAM)

    Despite the configuration specifying a maximum journal size of 32M and
    even 512MB Pi's having a 64MB /run, if you do a df /run and see it at
    100% it's down to bloody journald, and you have to use Peottering,s
    buggy tool to manually clear out the crap.

    journal --vacuum-files=1

    successfuly got systemd journal to cease to exist on disk, and moved
    nearly everything to a ram log.
    As the man falling past the 13th floor yelled: 'so far. so good!'

    If you aiming for uptimes of 80+ days or more, then bung that command in
    a weekly or monthly cron job, as things can get a bit temperamental if
    /run is full.

    ---druck

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From druck@3:770/3 to All on Tue Aug 1 21:48:26 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 01/08/2023 08:08, mm0fmf wrote:
    Cron job reboots it every morning so I don't worry about ramdisk filling
    up.

    It's been running like this on the same SDCARD for 2+ years.

    Lucky. I had an older Pi which I had set to reboot every day, and I had
    lots of occasions when it didn't come back up by itself. Often just
    needed power cycling, occasionally filesystem corruption needed fixing.
    Turned out it was a dodgy WiFi dongle, and after replacing that I was
    able to abandon the daily reboots, and the reliability was rock solid
    after that.

    My suggestion is to look at the logging levels of various processes, and
    ensure everything has a suitable log rotate configuration, so the size
    of your logging directory is kept pretty static over time without having
    to reboot. Particularly as booting does lots of logging, and once that
    is rotated out, the size may go down slightly.

    I do nightly differential backups across my fleet of Pi's and the first
    thing I look for in the monitoring graphs is the size of data
    transferred, any significant increase is invariably due to some problem
    causing a log to grow massively. A quick intervention has often avoided considerable downtime.

    ---druck

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From mm0fmf@3:770/3 to druck on Tue Aug 1 23:56:06 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 01/08/2023 21:48, druck wrote:
    On 01/08/2023 08:08, mm0fmf wrote:
    Cron job reboots it every morning so I don't worry about ramdisk
    filling up.

    It's been running like this on the same SDCARD for 2+ years.

    [snip]

    My suggestion is to look at the logging levels of various processes, and ensure everything has a suitable log rotate configuration, so the size
    of your logging directory is kept pretty static over time without having
    to reboot. Particularly as booting does lots of logging, and once that
    is rotated out, the size may go down slightly.


    I think you are right. I really should set it up better than it is. It's
    a classic "round tuit" problem as it works acceptably as is. I suppose
    the problem with Pi's and the like is they feel disposable along with
    their SD Cards and once you have something working the urge to do the
    job properly wanes. And you can always just stick the backup SD Card in
    and reboot!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From 23k.304@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Wed Aug 2 00:41:52 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 7/31/23 5:32 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 31/07/2023 02:54, 23k.302 wrote:
    On 7/29/23 2:42 PM, David W. Hodgins wrote:
    On 7/30/23 10:45, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 30/07/2023 10:24, Theo wrote:
    So all you really need to do is reproduce the directory structure:

    find/var/log -type d -exec mkdir -p "/tmp/{}" \;

    which reproduces/var/log/foo/bar/  to/tmp/var/log/foo/bar/

    Theo
    Now that is interesting, and if I leave the old /var/log there, and
    mount a ramdisk over it, provided that the ramdisk is*immediately*
    populated and directories created, then all should work?
    Any process that has a log file open before you mount the ramdisk won't
    automatically start using it.  The process will still have the open file >>> handle to the original, disk-based file instead.  So you'll either need >>> to be sure to mount the ramdisk sufficiently early in the boot sequence
    to ensure that no daemons have opened their logfiles yet, or you'll need >>> to signal those daemons reopen their logs.  Most do that in response to >>> SIGHUP.  Logrotate often uses that mechanism after rotating logs, so its >>> configuration can help you figure out what needs to be done after
    mounting the ramdisk if programs are still logging to disk.


       Hmm ... MIGHT be able to make that work with minimal
       pain using systemd. It has 'depends on','run after' and
       such params. He could init the ramdisk REALLY early in a
       quasi-structured/quasi-safe environment.

       Not everyone likes systemd - but it DOES have its uses.

       Another trick is to just make the ramdisk whenever and
       then make /var/log into a symlink/mountpoint. Yes, there'd
       be some early stuff still in the real /var/log, but maybe
       that's not important for him.

       However I'd rec ramdisks for where they're more useful.
       I have an app that does a lot of image manipulation
       before the results are shown via PHP/Apache on a Pi.
       I don't want any of that to be reading/writing to the
       SD card - too slow AND burns it out - but I did want
       access to be "normal", like with any 'real' drive. A
       small ramdisk was by far the best/easiest solution.

    I use them in this and my other pi-zero  context as fundamentally simple interprocess communicators. So in my Hifi Project, a daemon reads the
    icecast info off radio streams and writes it to a file in a temporary
    file system.

    The web server then has access to that to let me know what misc is being played, via ajax calls from the web servers radio interface.

    As long as only one process is writing them, this is a very simple and effective way to transfer data from one daemon to another.

    Agreed. If you CAN keep it simple, DO keep it simple.
    Remember YOU might have to debug/enhance it a few
    years LATER :-)

    Things like Pi's are special cases - not blazing fast,
    not a lot of RAM, run off SD cards/eMMC that have to be
    protected from re-write fatigue. If the need for space
    isn't excessive, and simplicity is worthwhile (almost
    always) then a RAMdisk is often your best solution.

    Because of the filesystem overhead, RAMdisks just MIGHT
    not be fast enough ... then you have to go to "less simple"
    approaches alas. To each app, its own.

    In the current project which involves driving 4 mains relays using a
    daemon that collects various bits of information in order to decide when
    to switch them on, it is used to store the relay state, so again ajax
    calls from the web server can determine not what *should be on, but what
    is *actually* on.

    Cool stuff

    I am sure the semaphores messages and pipes might have done the job, but simply recreating  a file ion a ramdisk every few seconds works fine.

    "Pipes" are a kind of cheat - really just "invisible" R/W files.
    I used them kinda extensively on some forking servers I wrote a
    couple of years ago in Python and 'C' to make data gathered by
    new forks accessible to the mother process. They WORK just fine
    and are commonly used and I *think* a tad faster than a RAMdisk,
    but still ...

    I'm fond of such 'servers' - even cobbled together a good
    "pre-forked" one - supposedly the highest-capacity/speed -
    for both TCP and UDP - but never had a good high-volume
    reason to use them. The best was almost like a 'chat' app,
    non-sync bi-directional where the queen server process could
    initiate, even push, tasks and messages to the clients. Fun !

    Hmm ... now apparently some possible servants of Xi here
    are calling me a "troll" because I repeated a few things
    (said by HS/NSA/CIA) they didn't WANT to hear about
    CCP sabotage-ware infiltrating almost everything in
    our important infrastructure/military systems and
    'devices' (which are almost entirely Linux/Unix-based).
    One day soon they ARE gonna get a big wake-up call ... but
    meanwhile denial means they won't DO anything about it :-)

    ANYway, /var/log CAN be moved to a RAMdisk if you want.
    Not 100% sure WHY you'd want to, but it CAN. If a few
    very early logs get 'lost' as you re-direct /var/log
    then that MIGHT not be all so important. If you want
    it all on RAMdisk then you don't CARE if it all
    vanishes on reboot. I very rarely look in /var/log
    anyhow so ....

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From druck@3:770/3 to All on Wed Aug 2 21:15:36 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    T24gMDIvMDgvMjAyMyAxNzowOCwgVGhlIE5hdHVyYWwgUGhpbG9zb3BoZXIgd3JvdGU6DQo+ IE9uIDAxLzA4LzIwMjMgMjE6MzAsIGRydWNrIHdyb3RlOg0KPj4gSWYgeW91IGFpbWluZyBm b3IgdXB0aW1lcyBvZiA4MCsgZGF5cyBvciBtb3JlLCB0aGVuIGJ1bmcgdGhhdCBjb21tYW5k IA0KPj4gaW4gYSB3ZWVrbHkgb3IgbW9udGhseSBjcm9uIGpvYiwgYXMgdGhpbmdzIGNhbiBn ZXQgYSBiaXQgdGVtcGVyYW1lbnRhbCANCj4+IGlmIC9ydW4gaXMgZnVsbC4NCj4+DQo+IEkg d2lsbCBiZWFyIHRoYXQgaW4gbWluZA0KPiBCdXQgcG93ZXIgZmFpbHVyZXMgYXJlIHJlbGF0 aXZlbHkgY29tbW9uIGhlcmUgd2hlbiB0aGXCoCB3aW5kIGJsb3dzDQoNCldlIGFyZSBtb3Jl IGxpa2VseSB0byBoYXZlIHBvd2VyIGZhaWx1cmVzIHdoZW4gdGhlIHdpbmQgZG9lc24ndCBi bG93IQ0KDQotLS1kcnVjaw0K

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Dennis Lee Bieber@3:770/3 to All on Wed Aug 2 16:08:36 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On Wed, 2 Aug 2023 17:25:36 +0100, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> declaimed the following:


    And by not continuously writing to the SD card with log files the chance
    of a non booting unit is really rather small. In fact it is hardly
    writing to the SD card AT ALL. now.

    I wonder if studying the boot configuration files of a Pi-Star system might not be of use. Pi-Star is a system for working with internet linked digital Amateur radio nodes, using a low-power radio board on top.

    By default, Pi-Star runs with the main (SD) drive set up in READ_ONLY. All logging, etc., is in RAM.

    pi-star@pi-star-3b(ro):~$ df
    Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Available Use% Mounted on
    /dev/root 15213412 1955360 12604368 14% /
    devtmpfs 464768 0 464768 0% /dev
    tmpfs 498048 0 498048 0% /dev/shm
    tmpfs 32768 7632 25136 24% /run
    tmpfs 5120 0 5120 0% /run/lock
    tmpfs 32768 0 32768 0% /sys/fs/cgroup
    tmpfs 65536 8 65528 1% /tmp
    tmpfs 16 4 12 25% /var/lib/logrotate
    tmpfs 32 16 16 50% /var/lib/dhcpcd5
    tmpfs 65536 10740 54796 17% /var/log
    tmpfs 64 0 64 0% /var/lib/php/sessions
    tmpfs 16 0 16 0% /var/lib/sudo
    tmpfs 1024 72 952 8% /var/cache/samba
    tmpfs 4096 2176 1920 54% /var/lib/samba/private
    tmpfs 1024 0 1024 0% /var/lib/nginx/body /dev/mmcblk0p1 64456 51112 13344 80% /boot
    tmpfs 99608 0 99608 0% /run/user/1000 pi-star@pi-star-3b(ro):~$

    Biggest problem is that it is a few OS versions (Debian) behind.


    WE shall see.Having a machine far more capable than a PDP/11 cost less
    than 25 with the SD card, and less than 50 all in with power supply
    relays and hopefully 3D printed box, is stunning for basic networked
    process control


    Heck -- some years ago there were instructions on how to set up two R-Pi as a VAXCluster (back when the hobby version of OpenVMS was a free package). Unfortunately, that is now a 404 page.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From druck@3:770/3 to All on Wed Aug 2 21:32:04 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    T24gMDEvMDgvMjAyMyAyMzo1NiwgbW0wZm1mIHdyb3RlOg0KPiBPbiAwMS8wOC8yMDIzIDIx OjQ4LCBkcnVjayB3cm90ZToNCj4+IE9uIDAxLzA4LzIwMjMgMDg6MDgsIG1tMGZtZiB3cm90 ZToNCj4+IE15IHN1Z2dlc3Rpb24gaXMgdG8gbG9vayBhdCB0aGUgbG9nZ2luZyBsZXZlbHMg b2YgdmFyaW91cyBwcm9jZXNzZXMsIA0KPj4gYW5kIGVuc3VyZSBldmVyeXRoaW5nIGhhcyBh IHN1aXRhYmxlIGxvZyByb3RhdGUgY29uZmlndXJhdGlvbg0KDQo+IEkgdGhpbmsgeW91IGFy ZSByaWdodC4gSSByZWFsbHkgc2hvdWxkIHNldCBpdCB1cCBiZXR0ZXIgdGhhbiBpdCBpcy4g SXQncyANCj4gYSBjbGFzc2ljICJyb3VuZCB0dWl0IiBwcm9ibGVtIGFzIGl0IHdvcmtzIGFj Y2VwdGFibHkgYXMgaXMuDQoNClllcyBpdCB3b3JrcywgcmlnaHQgdXAgdG8gd2hlbiBpdCBk b2Vzbid0IDotKQ0KDQo+wqAgSSBzdXBwb3NlIA0KPiB0aGUgcHJvYmxlbSB3aXRoIFBpJ3Mg YW5kIHRoZSBsaWtlIGlzIHRoZXkgZmVlbCBkaXNwb3NhYmxlIGFsb25nIHdpdGggDQo+IHRo ZWlyIFNEIENhcmRzIGFuZCBvbmNlIHlvdSBoYXZlIHNvbWV0aGluZyB3b3JraW5nIHRoZSB1 cmdlIHRvIGRvIHRoZSANCj4gam9iIHByb3Blcmx5IHdhbmVzLiBBbmQgeW91IGNhbiBhbHdh eXMganVzdCBzdGljayB0aGUgYmFja3VwIFNEIENhcmQgaW4gDQo+IGFuZCByZWJvb3QhDQoN ClRoYXQncyB3aHkgSSBzZXQgdXAgdGhlIG5pZ2h0bHkgZGlmZmVyZW50aWFsIGJhY2t1cHMs IHdoaWNoIHdyaXRlIHRoZSANCmNoYW5nZXMgdG8gYW4gaW1hZ2UgZmlsZSBvZiB0aGUgU0Qg Y2FyZCwgc28gaWYgdGhlIGNhcmQgZmFpbHMgSSBjYW4ganVzdCANCndyaXRlIHRoZSBpbWFn ZSB0byBhIG5ldyBTRCBjYXJkIGFuZCBiZSBiYWNrIHVwIGFuZCBydW5uaW5nIGluIG1pbnV0 ZXMuDQoNClRoYXQncyBmaW5lIGZvciBteSBQaSdzIGF0IGhvbWUsIGJ1dCBub3cgSSBoYXZl IHRoZW0gcnVubmluZyBzZXJ2aWNlcyBhdCANCnNldmVyYWwgb3RoZXIgbG9jYXRpb25zLCB3 aGljaCBJIG1heSBub3QgYmUgYWJsZSB0byBnZXQgdG8gZm9yIHdlZWtzLiBTbyANCkkndmUg c2V0IHRoZW0gdXAgZmFyIG1vcmUgY2FyZWZ1bGx5IHRvIGF2b2lkIHVzaW5nIHVwIHRoZSBT RCB3cml0ZSBsaWZlLCANCmFuZCBoYXZlIGludmVzdGVkIGFuZCB0cnlpbmcgb3V0IHRoZSBT YW1zdW5nIGFuZCBTYW5EaXNrIGhpZ2ggZW5kdXJhbmNlIA0KdmFyaWFudHMuDQoNCi0tLWRy dWNrDQoNCg==

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From David W. Hodgins@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Wed Aug 2 22:56:56 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On Wed, 02 Aug 2023 22:47:44 -0400, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    Interesting philosophy. accept failure and plan round it rather than eliminating failure in the first place?

    Keeping backups comes from experience. Hardware fails, even sd cards, and people make mistakes when deleting things.

    Regards, Dave Hodgins

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From 23k.304@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Thu Aug 3 02:15:44 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 8/2/23 12:47 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 02/08/2023 05:41, 23k.304 wrote:
    On 7/31/23 5:32 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 31/07/2023 02:54, 23k.302 wrote:
    On 7/29/23 2:42 PM, David W. Hodgins wrote:
    On 7/30/23 10:45, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 30/07/2023 10:24, Theo wrote:
    So all you really need to do is reproduce the directory structure: >>>>>>>
    find/var/log -type d -exec mkdir -p "/tmp/{}" \;

    which reproduces/var/log/foo/bar/  to/tmp/var/log/foo/bar/

    Theo
    Now that is interesting, and if I leave the old /var/log there, and >>>>>> mount a ramdisk over it, provided that the ramdisk is*immediately* >>>>>> populated and directories created, then all should work?
    Any process that has a log file open before you mount the ramdisk
    won't
    automatically start using it.  The process will still have the open >>>>> file
    handle to the original, disk-based file instead.  So you'll either
    need
    to be sure to mount the ramdisk sufficiently early in the boot
    sequence
    to ensure that no daemons have opened their logfiles yet, or you'll
    need
    to signal those daemons reopen their logs.  Most do that in
    response to
    SIGHUP.  Logrotate often uses that mechanism after rotating logs,
    so its
    configuration can help you figure out what needs to be done after
    mounting the ramdisk if programs are still logging to disk.


       Hmm ... MIGHT be able to make that work with minimal
       pain using systemd. It has 'depends on','run after' and
       such params. He could init the ramdisk REALLY early in a
       quasi-structured/quasi-safe environment.

       Not everyone likes systemd - but it DOES have its uses.

       Another trick is to just make the ramdisk whenever and
       then make /var/log into a symlink/mountpoint. Yes, there'd
       be some early stuff still in the real /var/log, but maybe
       that's not important for him.

       However I'd rec ramdisks for where they're more useful.
       I have an app that does a lot of image manipulation
       before the results are shown via PHP/Apache on a Pi.
       I don't want any of that to be reading/writing to the
       SD card - too slow AND burns it out - but I did want
       access to be "normal", like with any 'real' drive. A
       small ramdisk was by far the best/easiest solution.

    I use them in this and my other pi-zero  context as fundamentally
    simple interprocess communicators. So in my Hifi Project, a daemon
    reads the icecast info off radio streams and writes it to a file in a
    temporary file system.

    The web server then has access to that to let me know what misc is
    being played, via ajax calls from the web servers radio interface.

    As long as only one process is writing them, this is a very simple
    and effective way to transfer data from one daemon to another.

       Agreed. If you CAN keep it simple, DO keep it simple.
       Remember YOU might have to debug/enhance it a few
       years LATER  :-)

    Oh, I learnt my code writing contract assembler for people who wanted it
    well commented enough that the stupidest permie could fix it years later.
    Or myself. Sometimes I look at stuff I wrote and marvel at ait.


    Came across an embedded app I wrote about six years
    ago. It had its uses and then was obsolete. A big 'C'
    program for an Arduino Mega... lots of sensors, interrupts,
    data-polishing, what you'd expect. Even after such a
    relatively short period I did indeed "marvel" at its
    complexity and how it got through a bunch of issues -
    and I *wrote* the damned thing in about a month !
    How'd I *do* that ???


    I am not a computer scientist. Elegance isn't in my nature. I am a
    software and other sorts of engineer, and making it work, and keep on
    working at the lowets possible prices is burned into my soul

    "An engineer is someone who can do for five bob what any damned fool can
    do for a quid"

    "What Works" is usually MUCH more important than "What
    is theoretically correct". I do not plan/diagram
    apps, I just GO for it. Gotta kinda hold the whole thing
    in your head so you can see every interaction/dependency.
    Always a buzz ! Gets all those old neurons working !

    Yea, "computational theory" has its place - but in the
    real world ...... shit, I don't even use most of those
    "advanced" tricks in Python - too obscure and of little
    advantage except to decrease transparency.

    It's all 'C' under the hood. All the new "tricks"/"shortcuts/
    "methods" are really the Same Old Shit, same (or more) number
    of cpu cycles and bytes - just a lot less transparent. "Ease"
    and "sophistication" are so often illusions and it's getting
    worse and worse.

    The "AI's" will soon take over, writing everything THEIR way,
    according to THEIR logic. Won't be long after that mere humans
    are incapable of understanding/verifying what they create.
    It all becomes "magic".


       Things like Pi's are special cases - not blazing fast,
       not a lot of RAM, run off SD cards/eMMC that have to be
       protected from re-write fatigue. If the need for space
       isn't excessive, and simplicity is worthwhile (almost
       always) then a RAMdisk is often your best solution.

    Ha! compared with a Z80 with 48k of usable RAM or a 6809, they ARE
    blazingly fast. I cut my teeth writing C and assembler for those, stuff
    that was burned into ROM.
    There is so much on this zero ROM - 16GB! And I have ram coming out of
    my ears.

    Well, "blazingly fast", except by modern desktop/server measures :-)

    PI's are kind of in the gap between microcontrollers and
    "real" modern CPU boards. The power-consumption kinda
    pisses me off though ... you can basically turn a PIC
    or Arduino OFF until some important event happens, thus
    making them battery/solar-friendly. NOT so with PI's.

    PIs can be good for a lot of applications - but their
    limits MUST be considered. They are NOT high-end Xeons,
    more like 10 year old laptops.

       Because of the filesystem overhead, RAMdisks just MIGHT
       not be fast enough ... then you have to go to "less simple"
       approaches alas. To each app, its own.

    My access requrements are measured in seconds, not micro seconds.

    Makes it easy ! This is OFTEN the case.

    In the current project which involves driving 4 mains relays using a
    daemon that collects various bits of information in order to decide
    when to switch them on, it is used to store the relay state, so again
    ajax calls from the web server can determine not what *should be on,
    but what is *actually* on.

       Cool stuff

    I am sure the semaphores messages and pipes might have done the job,
    but simply recreating  a file ion a ramdisk every few seconds works
    fine.

       "Pipes" are a kind of cheat - really just "invisible" R/W files.
       I used them kinda extensively on some forking servers I wrote a
       couple of years ago in Python and 'C' to make data gathered by
       new forks accessible to the mother process. They WORK just fine
       and are commonly used and I *think* a tad faster than a RAMdisk,
       but still ...

    Oh there surely are faster, but who is in a hurry? a central heating controller changes states every few HOURS. and if the users browser view
    of that is a second behind, frankly who gives a damn?

    Well, 'device controllers' run at their own pace but
    things like comm servers need to run a lot faster and
    be prepared for LOTS of clients at the same time. At
    the time I was interested in all practical variants and
    thus took some skeleton code I found and blew it out
    into full real apps.

    "Pre-Forked" really ARE "the best" - you set up maybe
    ten or fifteen forks all running at the same time and
    distribute work accordingly. If NEEDED you can dynamically
    expand the number of forks. Think "Google".

    Good for very high traffic (there
    are graphs on this). The flip is that setting up and
    then managing all those forks IS a pain in the ass.
    It all depends on what you NEED. For MOST uses the
    simplest, non-forking/non-threaded, server will,
    well, serve.

    Like wise room temperatures and tank oil levels are not things that
    change much in an hour...


       I'm fond of such 'servers' - even cobbled together a good
       "pre-forked" one - supposedly the highest-capacity/speed -
       for both TCP and UDP - but never had a good high-volume
       reason to use them. The best was almost like a 'chat' app,
       non-sync bi-directional where the queen server process could
       initiate, even push, tasks and messages to the clients. Fun !

       Hmm ... now apparently some possible servants of Xi here
       are calling me a "troll" because I repeated a few things
       (said by HS/NSA/CIA) they didn't WANT to hear about
       CCP sabotage-ware infiltrating almost everything in
       our important infrastructure/military systems and
       'devices' (which are almost entirely Linux/Unix-based).
       One day soon they ARE gonna get a big wake-up call ... but
       meanwhile denial means they won't DO anything about it  :-)

    The problem is that no one knows what is really happening, and although
    the political narratives that are spun for consumption by hoi polloi,
    are obviously not  the real truth, no one knows what is. Not even the spinners.

    The spinners generally know NOTHING. They don't program.
    They merely repeat what they heard. However WHAT they've
    been hearing from the Highest Levels now IS very worrisome.

    My experience HERE is now Very Bad - the Linux People
    just do NOT WANT TO HEAR that the CCP has been sabotaging
    distros/drivers/etc. I remember about five years back when
    a Mint distro was heavily sabotaged ... they went after the
    code on the official distribution download page. One of
    the guys in the office HAD just installed it - I had to
    tell him to HOSE it. He wasn't very happy.

    BUT ... when's the last time YOU went through, say, the
    code for SSH or even actually used those checksum files
    that come with distros ? We all just ASSUME everything
    is fine, that SOMEBODY is watching every bit of it.

    Alas there are now SO many bits of it that said assumptions
    might NOT be true. Hell, even a printer driver can be
    tweaked by a malicious agent. It's so low-level that
    likely NOBODY checks often. And, according to our big
    letter agencies, there are MANY secret CCP tweaks in
    such stuff.

    I myself know for example, that there couldn't have been any weapons of
    mass destruction *directly threatening British interests* in Iraq, and
    that our prime minister lied about that. I spent a couple of years
    designing missile parts and know in principle where the bleeding edge
    is, and it sure ain't in Iraq.

    The "justification" for the Iraq War was 99% bullshit.
    The REAL reasons were purely political - Hussein was
    sliding over to the Russian side. Can't HAVE that !
    Too much oil involved.

    There is "politics" and "REALPOLITIK" ... a world
    of difference.

    I know that Covid injections do not put goverment control chips in your brain, They don't need to. They have the mass mediafor that :-)

    I've had - and will have - every Covid vax they produce.
    No microchips. I forget WHO came up with that paranoid
    theory ...

    I know the moon landings were real, because there wasn't the technology
    then to fake it.

    I lived 20 miles from Kennedy back in the day. The
    launches shook the sky. My Dad WORKED there. They
    weren't faking anything. It was all stuff just
    *barely* within the current tech. Surprised there
    weren't more disasters.

    For fun, look up "rope memory" ... that's what the
    Apollo computers ran on (even though much better
    stuff HAD been invented since the Original Contract).

    I know that 911 was a simple case of structural failure in a fire,
    because everything about it is consistent with my knowledge of
    structural engneering.

    Yep. However the popular vision of falling buildings
    comes from movies - where the tall structures fall
    over dramatically instead of collapsing in-place.
    Sorry, but the structures can't support "falling over".
    MAYBE the Empire State.

    I was watching on 911 ... was able to predict the
    Big Crush well ahead of time. You could SEE what
    was happening, what was about to happen.

    I dont know who apart from lee harvey oswald, might have shot JFK , or
    why. |Jury still out.

    I think he *did* it ... but WHY, and who was PAYING,
    we'll NEVER find out. There are now SO many takes
    on it that we'd never recognize the REAL one from
    all the bullshit. This seems intentional. All "high
    officials" from 1963 are DEAD. Nobody blabbed.

    I know that 'renewable' energy is a greater disaster than any climate
    change, and I know that climate change is largely natural with very
    little man made components. Because I did the years of research. And the problem is within my pay garde as an engineer with a good STEM background

    "Renewable" is almost all hype/bullshit at this
    point. It'll make a lot of $$$ for a few who
    will kick it back to their favorite pols.

    Now in 20-25 years 'renewable' CAN be much more
    real. Better PVs, better batteries, it CAN be
    very useful. But for TODAY, a disaster .....

    I don't know who runs the world banks, but I an fairly sure its not
    Jews, or Lizards.
    I am however sure that they haven't a clue what they are doing.

    They mostly just "fake it" ... IMHO. Not the best
    thing but the whole world financial thing is SO
    fluid and weird that there may be no better approach.
    Pure Reaction.

    However the ILLUSION of sense and logic is paramount.
    Economies these days are all illusion. None of the
    actual numbers seem to work out. They've become a
    'religion' of sorts. Heretics are suppressed.

    As for the "Lizard People" ... well :-) I'll put
    my trust in the Space Aliens instead !

       ANYway, /var/log CAN be moved to a RAMdisk if you want.
       Not 100% sure WHY you'd want to, but it CAN. If a few
       very early logs get 'lost' as you re-direct /var/log
       then that MIGHT not be all so important. If you want
       it all on RAMdisk then you don't CARE if it all
       vanishes on reboot. I very rarely look in /var/log
       anyhow so ....

    As I said, whoever you are, the less writing to an SD drive there is,
    the less chance there is of file system corruption when the power goes out.

    Yep !!! Leave the SD/eMMC *out* of it all as much as possible !

    Its simply a natural habit to ensure than whatever an embedded system
    does is the minimum necessary to get the job done with the maximum reliability.

    Yea, but do the "new guys" really GET that ??? I've run
    into a LOT who don't seem to. They don't understand the
    tech, just follow the glossy hype. The more "churning"
    the more you should shift to SSDs, then magnetics, then
    RAMdisks if possible.

    The SD card looks like it might be the weakest link. So I am trying to
    reduce stress on it.

    In most PI/embedded any SD card *is* the weakest link, the
    prime point for failure. Always buy the best (Samsung
    "Endurance") but you STILL have to be smart.

    I came across a PI-1b that I'd set up to do ONE simple
    thing buried way in the background. It'd been doing its
    thing for about 7 YEARS without fanfare. Samsung card
    (pre-"Endurance"). Ancient version of Raspbian. Not a
    security risk, not on the network. It simply Just Worked.
    The main junk is done on a RAMdisk. I did put a newer
    card in it, the latest Raspbian, and now it's still doing
    its one thing. Should be good for a decade. I'll be
    long-retired, maybe dead, by then. After that they
    can spend $2500 for what I did for $79.95 ......

    Oh well, maybe Too Much ... I'd prefer simpler replies,
    but there were MANY issues raised here. I'm NOT gonna
    stop posting to COLM even IF some fools think I'm
    some kind of "troll". What I say generally NEEDS to
    be said. If they Don't Want to hear it ... well .....

    Linux/Unix are NOT invulnerable. This latest news
    makes that all the more obvious. Plan/act accordingly.
    The thing that makes your electricity stay on, that keeps
    big chemical factory from exploding, mekes your bank
    account work ... NOT as secure as you'd LIKE to think.
    The CCP and friends have VAST resources to make that so
    and Confrontation Time is counting down.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Jan Panteltje@3:770/3 to Hodgins" on Thu Aug 3 06:47:50 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On a sunny day (Wed, 02 Aug 2023 22:56:57 -0400) it happened "David W.
    Hodgins" <dwhodgins@nomail.afraid.org> wrote in <op.182yg7sza3w0dxdave@hodgins.homeip.net>:

    On Wed, 02 Aug 2023 22:47:44 -0400, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    Interesting philosophy. accept failure and plan round it rather than
    eliminating failure in the first place?

    Keeping backups comes from experience. Hardware fails, even sd cards, and >people make mistakes when deleting things.

    Regards, Dave Hodgins

    +1

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Jan Panteltje@3:770/3 to Philosopher on Thu Aug 3 06:44:56 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On a sunny day (Wed, 2 Aug 2023 17:47:56 +0100) it happened The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote in <uae1bt$5slp$1@dont-email.me>:



      ANYway, /var/log CAN be moved to a RAMdisk if you want.
      Not 100% sure WHY you'd want to, but it CAN. If a few
      very early logs get 'lost' as you re-direct /var/log
      then that MIGHT not be all so important. If you want
      it all on RAMdisk then you don't CARE if it all
      vanishes on reboot. I very rarely look in /var/log
      anyhow so ....

    As I said, whoever you are, the less writing to an SD drive there is,
    the less chance there is of file system corruption when the power goes out.

    To avoid restarts on power failure use a UPS (I do) or just a simple battery circuit
    was it not called 'battery hat' or something? with the Pi.



    Its simply a natural habit to ensure than whatever an embedded system
    does is the minimum necessary to get the job done with the maximum >reliability.

    The SD card looks like it might be the weakest link. So I am trying to
    reduce stress on it.

    For many things Pi is too much power, much can be done with a simple PIC 18F14K22
    https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/pic/index.html
    take scope_pic or freq_pic from that site.
    *IF* you like to code in asm :-)
    Only milli-amps curent consumption
    https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/pic/gm_pic2/

    So much bloat these days just to say 'hello world'
    I designed a ram disk for the Z80, wrote a CP/M clone too
    https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/z80/system14/diagrams/index.html

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Jan Panteltje on Thu Aug 3 10:08:36 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 03/08/2023 07:44, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Wed, 2 Aug 2023 17:47:56 +0100) it happened The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote in <uae1bt$5slp$1@dont-email.me>:



      ANYway, /var/log CAN be moved to a RAMdisk if you want.
      Not 100% sure WHY you'd want to, but it CAN. If a few
      very early logs get 'lost' as you re-direct /var/log
      then that MIGHT not be all so important. If you want
      it all on RAMdisk then you don't CARE if it all
      vanishes on reboot. I very rarely look in /var/log
      anyhow so ....

    As I said, whoever you are, the less writing to an SD drive there is,
    the less chance there is of file system corruption when the power goes out.

    To avoid restarts on power failure use a UPS (I do) or just a simple battery circuit
    was it not called 'battery hat' or something? with the Pi.


    Restarts are not a problem really. the whole central heating system dies
    when the power goes out anyway.

    If I wanted to run through that I'd UPS the whole damned thing.


    Its simply a natural habit to ensure than whatever an embedded system
    does is the minimum necessary to get the job done with the maximum
    reliability.

    The SD card looks like it might be the weakest link. So I am trying to
    reduce stress on it.

    So much bloat these days just to say 'hello world'

    no argument there. Was there even at the time of MSDOS. I once traced
    through the code that ran when you hit a key on the keyboard. Thousands
    of instructions

    I designed a ram disk for the Z80, wrote a CP/M clone too
    https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/z80/system14/diagrams/index.html


    Neat stuff


    --
    "I guess a rattlesnake ain't risponsible fer bein' a rattlesnake, but ah
    puts mah heel on um jess the same if'n I catches him around mah chillun".

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Pancho@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Thu Aug 3 10:43:16 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 02/08/2023 17:09, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 01/08/2023 21:47, Pancho wrote:
    On 7/29/23 19:45, Robert Heller wrote:
    This is in fact the default behaviour for Armbian on my Banana Pi M64.


    +1, :-)  I was just thinking, I spent ages undoing this, in order to
    find out why my system was crashing. But I'm running Armbian.

    TNP, FFS, SD cards cost buttons. Pack of two 32GB for less than a
    tenner. If you are worried about wear, clone a new one every year, or
    whatever.

    This product may end up in places where the user isn't smart enough to
    do that.


    OK, I remember looking at this back in December and coming to the
    conclusion it was hopeless. Micro SD cards (probably) don't do active
    wear levelling + I wasn't clear what IO actually killed them. I seem to remember, someone suggesting it was the EXT4 journal file that was the
    problem rather than logs.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Charlie Gibbs@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Thu Aug 3 16:44:42 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 2023-08-03, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    Interesting philosophy. accept failure and plan round it rather than eliminating failure in the first place?

    That's old hat for anyone who's had to work with M$ products.

    --
    /~\ Charlie Gibbs | You can't save the earth
    \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | unless you're willing to
    X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | make other people sacrifice.
    / \ if you read it the right way. | -- Dogbert the green consultant

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Thu Aug 3 18:50:14 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On Thu, 3 Aug 2023 03:47:44 +0100
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    Interesting philosophy. accept failure and plan round it rather than eliminating failure in the first place?

    I've seen that as a programming design philosophy. The idea is that
    it should be possible to kill the program at any time without depending on
    it going through some cleanup/finish code it can just stop without losing anything. The startup code always goes through the crash recovery and everything necessary to recover must be flushed to disc before
    acknowledging an input.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Allodoxaphobia@3:770/3 to Charlie Gibbs on Thu Aug 3 17:42:00 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On Thu, 03 Aug 2023 16:44:42 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
    On 2023-08-03, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    Interesting philosophy. accept failure and plan round it rather than
    eliminating failure in the first place?

    That's old hat for anyone who's had to work with M$ products.

    For many years scientists have tried to perfect fault tolerant systems. Meanwhile, Microsoft profits by exploiting fault tolerant customers.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Rich@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Thu Aug 3 19:50:10 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    In comp.os.linux.misc The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 03/08/2023 10:43, Pancho wrote:
    OK, I remember looking at this back in December and coming to the
    conclusion it was hopeless. Micro SD cards (probably) don't do
    active wear levelling + I wasn't clear what IO actually killed them.
    I seem to remember, someone suggesting it was the EXT4 journal file
    that was the problem rather than logs.

    That is a slightly terrifying thought...does anyone have any more information?
    Mm. It would seem that while journalling multiplies the number of
    writes, it wont impact what amounts to a read-only or 'write very
    rarely' filesystem.

    The problem with the ext4 journal and a SD card /without wear leveling/
    is the journal is in a fixed location on the disk, so any write
    anywhere that is journaled also becomes a write onto the journal area
    of the disk. So the flash cells underlying the area of the journal see
    far more writes than the rest of the cells, and wear out sooner.

    Now, *with wear leveling* those journal writes that are logically to
    the same blocks on the disk get spread all over the flash cells via the
    wear leveling controller, mitigating the issue of a lot of writes
    happening to the same blocks on the disk. The write amplification
    issue is still present in any case.

    But agreed, as you've reduced the number of writes to a bare minimum,
    you likely won't need to worry about whether your sd card has, or does
    not have, a wear leveling controller. Few to zero writes means little
    to no wear.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From David W. Hodgins@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Thu Aug 3 16:20:52 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On Thu, 03 Aug 2023 14:57:22 -0400, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    That is a slightly terrifying thought...does anyone have any more information?
    Mm. It would seem that while journalling multiplies the number of
    writes, it wont impact what amounts to a read-only or 'write very
    rarely' filesystem.
    Phew.
    Obviously of you are wring huge amounts of data over and over again you
    would probably attach an SSD via USB anyway..

    I'm using 11 GB of a 32 GB sd card using ext4 on an rpi 4b. A little slow to boot
    but otherwise performance pretty good. It's running kde plasma, with no workarounds
    to avoid extra writes, just disabling things I don't like in plasma like desktop
    effects and most background services.

    # free -m
    total used free shared buff/cache available
    Mem: 3831 1289 1141 49 1400 2305
    Swap: 6696 0 6696

    It's currently running konversation and guvcview for a camera, but I've used firefox on it too. Firefox is slow, but not unusable.

    I use it mainly for konversation so I can do things on my main desktop system while discussing things in irc.

    I have some spare sd cards just in case and keep regular backups on my main system. I've been running it with the same sd card since Feb. 2021.

    The sd cards are in packages labeled Lexar high-performance 633x microSDHC UHS-I.

    I have no idea if that does wear leveling.

    The rpi 4b has much better performance than I expected given that it's using
    an sd card. I was going to try xfce4 with it, but after seeing it's performance decided to try kde plasma.

    Using something like f2fs would probably be better, but ext4 is working fine for
    me. Knock on wood. :-)

    Regards, Dave Hodgins

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to Pancho on Thu Aug 3 23:59:24 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On Thu, 3 Aug 2023 23:28:06 +0100
    Pancho <Pancho.Jones@Proton.Me> wrote:

    I guessed that the worry was that the journal was a smallish single
    file, used as a circular buffer (maybe 128MB). So, without wear
    levelling, the same few blocks would be getting hit all the time.

    Remember write amplification - flash storage uses very large blocks
    1MB or more so small writes involve copying most of a block, writing a new
    one with the changes and queing the old one to be wiped.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Pancho@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Thu Aug 3 23:28:06 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 8/3/23 19:57, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 03/08/2023 10:43, Pancho wrote:
    On 02/08/2023 17:09, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 01/08/2023 21:47, Pancho wrote:
    On 7/29/23 19:45, Robert Heller wrote:
    This is in fact the default behaviour for Armbian on my Banana Pi M64. >>>>>

    +1, :-)  I was just thinking, I spent ages undoing this, in order to
    find out why my system was crashing. But I'm running Armbian.

    TNP, FFS, SD cards cost buttons. Pack of two 32GB for less than a
    tenner. If you are worried about wear, clone a new one every year,
    or whatever.

    This product may end up in places where the user isn't smart enough
    to do that.


    OK, I remember looking at this back in December and coming to the
    conclusion it was hopeless. Micro SD cards (probably) don't do active
    wear levelling + I wasn't clear what IO actually killed them. I seem
    to remember, someone suggesting it was the EXT4 journal file that was
    the problem rather than logs.

    That is a slightly terrifying thought...does anyone have any more information?
    Mm. It would seem that while journalling multiplies the number of
    writes, it wont impact what amounts to a read-only or 'write very
    rarely' filesystem.
    Phew.
    Obviously of you are wring huge amounts of data over and over again you
    would probably attach an SSD via USB anyway..


    I guessed that the worry was that the journal was a smallish single
    file, used as a circular buffer (maybe 128MB). So, without wear
    levelling, the same few blocks would be getting hit all the time.
    Meaning the SD card dies well below any quoted TB Written endurance stat.

    But.., I appear to have been wrong, some micro SD cards do, indeed, do
    wear levelling, the Kingston Industrial for example. But it is pricey
    £24 quid for £64 GB (32 GB even more expensive).

    Due to this high cost of the industrial SD, for my rPi, I still arrive
    at the same conclusion, yearly replacement of a cheap SD.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to David W. Hodgins on Fri Aug 4 03:29:30 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 03/08/2023 21:20, David W. Hodgins wrote:
    On Thu, 03 Aug 2023 14:57:22 -0400, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    That is a slightly terrifying thought...does anyone have any more
    information?
    Mm. It would seem that while journalling multiplies the number of
    writes, it wont impact what amounts to a read-only or 'write very
    rarely' filesystem.
    Phew.
    Obviously of you are wring huge amounts of data over and over again you
    would probably attach an SSD via USB anyway..

    I'm using 11 GB of a 32 GB sd card using ext4 on an rpi 4b. A little
    slow to boot
    but otherwise performance pretty good. It's running kde plasma, with no workarounds
    to avoid extra writes, just disabling things I don't like in plasma like desktop
    effects and most background services.

    # free -m
                   total        used        free      shared  buff/cache
    available
    Mem:            3831        1289        1141          49
    1400        2305
    Swap:           6696           0        6696

    It's currently running konversation and guvcview for a camera, but I've
    used
    firefox on it too. Firefox is slow, but not unusable.

    I use it mainly for konversation so I can do things on my main desktop
    system
    while discussing things in irc.

    I have some spare sd cards just in case and keep regular backups on my main system. I've been running it with the same sd card since Feb. 2021.

    The sd cards are in packages labeled Lexar high-performance 633x
    microSDHC UHS-I.

    I have no idea if that does wear leveling.

    The rpi 4b has much better performance than I expected given that it's
    using
    an sd card. I was going to try xfce4 with it, but after seeing it's performance
    decided to try kde plasma.

    Using something like f2fs would probably be better, but ext4 is working
    fine for
    me. Knock on wood. :-)

    Regards, Dave Hodgins

    I dunno how fast an SSD with a USB interface would be compared with a
    SATA, but if I was using a pi for user level stuff, I'd want some kind
    of SSD in there with the SD card only there to boot the thing.

    My impressions is that a Pi is about as fast as a 486 used to be. or
    maybe a bit more. Many people say the latest Pi is pentium 4 level or thereabouts.


    --
    In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
    In practice, there is.
    -- Yogi Berra

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Rich on Fri Aug 4 03:22:32 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 03/08/2023 20:50, Rich wrote:
    In comp.os.linux.misc The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 03/08/2023 10:43, Pancho wrote:
    OK, I remember looking at this back in December and coming to the
    conclusion it was hopeless. Micro SD cards (probably) don't do
    active wear levelling + I wasn't clear what IO actually killed them.
    I seem to remember, someone suggesting it was the EXT4 journal file
    that was the problem rather than logs.

    That is a slightly terrifying thought...does anyone have any more
    information?
    Mm. It would seem that while journalling multiplies the number of
    writes, it wont impact what amounts to a read-only or 'write very
    rarely' filesystem.

    The problem with the ext4 journal and a SD card /without wear leveling/
    is the journal is in a fixed location on the disk, so any write
    anywhere that is journaled also becomes a write onto the journal area
    of the disk. So the flash cells underlying the area of the journal see
    far more writes than the rest of the cells, and wear out sooner.

    Mmm. But that goes for directory entries which get time stamped, as well
    I think any card with NO wear levelling - that is no mapping from
    logical to physical sectors - is not going to work as a card at all,
    because the OS will be dealing in much smaller sectors than the SD card,
    and the card has to erase large blocks.

    So there must be some processor shit going on to map logical to physical
    blocks and it is then no cost saving to have shit software.
    Unfortunately that means you need to have somewhere to store that
    mapping, and THAT area will get a lot of writes. Dunno how they manage that.


    I suspect the cheaper chips have substandard NVRAM

    Now, *with wear leveling* those journal writes that are logically to
    the same blocks on the disk get spread all over the flash cells via the
    wear leveling controller, mitigating the issue of a lot of writes
    happening to the same blocks on the disk. The write amplification
    issue is still present in any case.

    But agreed, as you've reduced the number of writes to a bare minimum,
    you likely won't need to worry about whether your sd card has, or does
    not have, a wear leveling controller. Few to zero writes means little
    to no wear.

    Yes. When I thought about what was happening in the application, the
    user makes occasional config changes, but apart from that, nothing needs
    to change. If it goes wrong, unless it's me, logs are pointless. And I
    am keeping RAM logs, which are worth it for live debugging.


    --
    "When one man dies it's a tragedy. When thousands die it's statistics."

    Josef Stalin

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Fri Aug 4 03:38:16 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 03/08/2023 23:59, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Thu, 3 Aug 2023 23:28:06 +0100
    Pancho <Pancho.Jones@Proton.Me> wrote:

    I guessed that the worry was that the journal was a smallish single
    file, used as a circular buffer (maybe 128MB). So, without wear
    levelling, the same few blocks would be getting hit all the time.

    Remember write amplification - flash storage uses very large blocks
    1MB or more so small writes involve copying most of a block, writing a new one with the changes and queing the old one to be wiped.

    Indeed.

    Oddly enough my SSD drives seem to be lasting better than the spinning
    rust they replaced. The wear levelling in THOSE really works.
    So my tentative feeling at this point in time is that while /boot might
    be on the SD card, if I were to use a pi for serious R/W everything else
    would be an SSD mounted somehow at boot. I believe with later PIs you
    can boot the whole thing from USB/SSD or rust.

    For me that leads to a sort of tentative conclusions - if I want a busy
    server, or user desktop, I'd pick a late model Pi and USB boot it. If I
    want an embedded device, I'd pick an SD card and tune the OS not to use
    it, if possible.

    And for serious storage, the later OS supports SATA hats...




    --
    The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to
    rule.
    – H. L. Mencken, American journalist, 1880-1956

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From 23k.304@3:770/3 to Jan Panteltje on Fri Aug 4 01:08:14 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 8/3/23 2:44 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Wed, 2 Aug 2023 17:47:56 +0100) it happened The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote in <uae1bt$5slp$1@dont-email.me>:



      ANYway, /var/log CAN be moved to a RAMdisk if you want.
      Not 100% sure WHY you'd want to, but it CAN. If a few
      very early logs get 'lost' as you re-direct /var/log
      then that MIGHT not be all so important. If you want
      it all on RAMdisk then you don't CARE if it all
      vanishes on reboot. I very rarely look in /var/log
      anyhow so ....

    As I said, whoever you are, the less writing to an SD drive there is,
    the less chance there is of file system corruption when the power goes out.

    To avoid restarts on power failure use a UPS (I do) or just a simple battery circuit
    was it not called 'battery hat' or something? with the Pi.


    I remember the "battery hat" - still sold :

    https://www.waveshare.com/li-ion-battery-hat.htm

    But MOST Pi's, because of the high power consumption,
    still run off the mains - so a UPS is probably the
    simplest option. The "battery hat" however might
    serve to deal with very short interruptions.

    However I don't think the most stress to SD cards
    is on boot - but during regular USE ... the usual
    data churning and loading system apps from the
    card. If "ping" is used, well, where does it COME
    from on a PI ? The SD card. Each application has
    to be examined to see what routines are used and
    put them into a RAMdisk or whatever. Remember,
    even reading an SD card involves re-writing the
    thing, that's how the tech works.


    Its simply a natural habit to ensure than whatever an embedded system
    does is the minimum necessary to get the job done with the maximum
    reliability.

    The SD card looks like it might be the weakest link. So I am trying to
    reduce stress on it.

    For many things Pi is too much power, much can be done with a simple PIC 18F14K22
    https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/pic/index.html
    take scope_pic or freq_pic from that site.
    *IF* you like to code in asm :-)
    Only milli-amps curent consumption
    https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/pic/gm_pic2/

    So much bloat these days just to say 'hello world'
    I designed a ram disk for the Z80, wrote a CP/M clone too
    https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/z80/system14/diagrams/index.html

    Hey, I *remember* those days ! Bill Gates kinda rose
    to fame because there used to be contests over how to
    write basic functions in the very least number of
    bytes/cycles. Consider how TINY his BASIC was at the
    start, yet could DO so much. These days - ten or more
    times the pork for barely more function and if it
    doesn't have a giant slick GUI nobody wants to use it.

    Yea, Bill became a total asshole, but at the beginning ...

    I've always liked micro-controllers. Very little RAM/ROM
    or even speed. The goal is to use every trick to squeeze
    as much function from every single byte as possible. That
    is an entirely different philosophy from what we commonly
    see today.

    Used to do ASM on micro-controllers, but over the past
    decade the better 'C' compilers are actually smarter,
    can do the same in even fewer bytes/cycles than most
    human-writ code. Not by a HUGE margin, but, on tiny
    devices, maybe enough.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From 23k.304@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Fri Aug 4 01:39:44 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 8/3/23 5:08 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 03/08/2023 07:44, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Wed, 2 Aug 2023 17:47:56 +0100) it happened The Natural
    Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote in <uae1bt$5slp$1@dont-email.me>:



        ANYway, /var/log CAN be moved to a RAMdisk if you want.
        Not 100% sure WHY you'd want to, but it CAN. If a few
        very early logs get 'lost' as you re-direct /var/log
        then that MIGHT not be all so important. If you want
        it all on RAMdisk then you don't CARE if it all
        vanishes on reboot. I very rarely look in /var/log
        anyhow so ....

    As I said, whoever you are, the less writing to an SD drive there is,
    the less chance there is of file system corruption when the power
    goes out.

    To avoid restarts on power failure use a UPS (I do) or just a simple
    battery circuit
    was it not called 'battery hat' or something? with the Pi.


    Restarts are not a problem really. the whole central heating system dies
    when the power goes out anyway.

    If I wanted to run through that I'd UPS the whole damned thing.


    Its simply a natural habit to ensure than whatever an embedded system
    does is the minimum necessary to get the job done with the maximum
    reliability.

    The SD card looks like it might be the weakest link. So I am trying to
    reduce stress on it.

    So much bloat these days just to say 'hello world'

    no argument there. Was there even at the time of MSDOS. I once traced
    through the code that ran when you hit a key on the keyboard. Thousands
    of instructions

    I designed a ram disk for the Z80, wrote a CP/M clone too
      https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/z80/system14/diagrams/index.html


    Neat stuff

    Yep, and FAMILIAR too. This was the kind of stuff
    "developers" had to deal with back in the day, right
    down to making the hardware. No "standard drivers"
    or off-the-shelf plug-in cards back then worth shit.
    If it was worth doing you had to do it ALL yourself
    from the crappy chips on up.

    Such INTERESTING days ! :-)

    I'd say maybe 1830-1900 were equally interesting for
    the old MECHANICAL developers. Ah to be on Edison's
    team (even though he was an asshole) !!! :-)

    Some new "interesting days", or "day", may be yet to
    come - but it's in "AI" development. After that
    there's nothing left (for humans). It'll be
    robotopia, or the "Savage Reservation" ....

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Jan Panteltje@3:770/3 to 23k304@bfxw9.net on Fri Aug 4 05:55:32 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On a sunny day (Fri, 4 Aug 2023 01:08:14 -0400) it happened "23k.304" <23k304@bfxw9.net> wrote in <x4mcnaG1KMJQGlH5nZ2dnZfqn_qdnZ2d@earthlink.com>:

    On 8/3/23 2:44 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Wed, 2 Aug 2023 17:47:56 +0100) it happened The Natural
    Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote in <uae1bt$5slp$1@dont-email.me>:



      ANYway, /var/log CAN be moved to a RAMdisk if you want.
      Not 100% sure WHY you'd want to, but it CAN. If a few
      very early logs get 'lost' as you re-direct /var/log
      then that MIGHT not be all so important. If you want
      it all on RAMdisk then you don't CARE if it all
      vanishes on reboot. I very rarely look in /var/log
      anyhow so ....

    As I said, whoever you are, the less writing to an SD drive there is,
    the less chance there is of file system corruption when the power goes out. >>
    To avoid restarts on power failure use a UPS (I do) or just a simple battery circuit
    was it not called 'battery hat' or something? with the Pi.


    I remember the "battery hat" - still sold :

    https://www.waveshare.com/li-ion-battery-hat.htm

    But MOST Pi's, because of the high power consumption,
    still run off the mains - so a UPS is probably the
    simplest option. The "battery hat" however might
    serve to deal with very short interruptions.

    However I don't think the most stress to SD cards
    is on boot - but during regular USE ... the usual
    data churning and loading system apps from the
    card. If "ping" is used, well, where does it COME
    from on a PI ? The SD card. Each application has
    to be examined to see what routines are used and
    put them into a RAMdisk or whatever. Remember,
    even reading an SD card involves re-writing the
    thing, that's how the tech works.

    I dunno..
    I have an old Pi uname -a says Feb 2013.. so >10 years, on 24/7,
    https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/xgpspc/index.html
    I use it to monitor things like air traffic, shipping traffic,
    weather data like air pressure, temperature etc, runs as server.
    It ran on some old sdcard then when I moved house some years ago
    I replaced that sdcard wih a Samsung one, think reason was I messed up something.
    It does log weather all the time..
    An other Pi as client logs everything else.
    Some screenshots:
    panteltje.nl/pub/xgpspc_functie_H.gif
    panteltje.nl/pub/boats_and_planes.gif
    panteltje.nl/pub/xgpspc_5_planes.gif

    But never a problem with the old card and the Samsung SD cards.
    This I write on a Pi4 8 GB with the Usenet news reader I wrote that I ported to it:
    https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/newsflex/index.html
    32 GB Samsung SDcard..
    There is several GB data - Usenet posts - from the last 20 years or so and updated every time I go online and post or read here.
    firefox or chromium browser used every day,
    I do have a Toshiba 4 TB harddisk connected but most writing from firefox and downloads I do go to the SDcard,
    then are backed up to that Toshiba.

    raspberrypi: ~ # df
    Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Available Use% Mounted on
    /dev/root 30446232 23535028 5566020 81% /
    ...
    ...
    /dev/mmcblk0p1 258095 50411 207685 20% /boot
    tmpfs 808848 20 808828 1% /run/user/1000
    /dev/sdb2 3844510712 2411345180 1237804868 67% /mnt/sda2
    raspberrypi: ~ # uname -a
    Linux raspberrypi 5.15.32-v7l+ #1538 SMP Thu Mar 31 19:39:41 BST 2022 armv7l GNU/Linux



    Its simply a natural habit to ensure than whatever an embedded system
    does is the minimum necessary to get the job done with the maximum
    reliability.

    The SD card looks like it might be the weakest link. So I am trying to
    reduce stress on it.

    Well we will see....

    It makes sense to backup your data on a regular basis and make a copy of the card every month? year?
    Card hardware failures are rare, I suspect more failures are with the filesystem.
    I have a 20 year? old 16 GB Duracell USB stick with Reiserfs that seems to always work, used every day.
    Some ext4 I have had serious problems with.. Becoming unreadable.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From David W. Hodgins@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Thu Aug 3 23:15:36 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On Thu, 03 Aug 2023 22:29:31 -0400, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    I dunno how fast an SSD with a USB interface would be compared with a
    SATA, but if I was using a pi for user level stuff, I'd want some kind
    of SSD in there with the SD card only there to boot the thing.

    sd cards are a lot cheaper. :-)

    My impressions is that a Pi is about as fast as a 486 used to be. or
    maybe a bit more. Many people say the latest Pi is pentium 4 level or thereabouts.

    This is an rpi 4b, which is a quad core (1 thread per core) and 4GB ram.

    lscpu shows 108.0 BogoMIPS, while my desktop system with an AMD FX(tm)-4170 Quad-Core Processor from 2012 shows 8428.66 BoboMIPS.
    Despite the low number of BogoMIPS, I'm still impressed by it overall.

    It's fine for running the few applications I use it for.

    Regards, Dave Hodgins

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Fri Aug 4 06:51:30 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On Fri, 4 Aug 2023 03:38:17 +0100
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    For me that leads to a sort of tentative conclusions - if I want a busy server, or user desktop, I'd pick a late model Pi and USB boot it. If I
    want an embedded device, I'd pick an SD card and tune the OS not to use
    it, if possible.

    That seems right to me too.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From 23k.304@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Fri Aug 4 02:03:08 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 8/3/23 5:08 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 03/08/2023 07:44, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Wed, 2 Aug 2023 17:47:56 +0100) it happened The Natural
    Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote in <uae1bt$5slp$1@dont-email.me>:



        ANYway, /var/log CAN be moved to a RAMdisk if you want.
        Not 100% sure WHY you'd want to, but it CAN. If a few
        very early logs get 'lost' as you re-direct /var/log
        then that MIGHT not be all so important. If you want
        it all on RAMdisk then you don't CARE if it all
        vanishes on reboot. I very rarely look in /var/log
        anyhow so ....

    As I said, whoever you are, the less writing to an SD drive there is,
    the less chance there is of file system corruption when the power
    goes out.

    To avoid restarts on power failure use a UPS (I do) or just a simple
    battery circuit
    was it not called 'battery hat' or something? with the Pi.


    Restarts are not a problem really. the whole central heating system dies
    when the power goes out anyway.

    If I wanted to run through that I'd UPS the whole damned thing.


    Its simply a natural habit to ensure than whatever an embedded system
    does is the minimum necessary to get the job done with the maximum
    reliability.

    The SD card looks like it might be the weakest link. So I am trying to
    reduce stress on it.

    So much bloat these days just to say 'hello world'

    no argument there. Was there even at the time of MSDOS. I once traced
    through the code that ran when you hit a key on the keyboard. Thousands
    of instructions

    Heh, heh ... ALWAYS a lot more complicated than it SEEMS :-)

    On the old IBM-PCs there were a bunch, a whole bunch, of
    BIOS routines. These were pretty well optimized code
    due to size limits of the time. Using ASM you could
    exploit them nicely - get KB input, do X-Y output to
    the monitor, like all the stuff you'd need for a
    smart WYSIWYG text editor, all from these built-in
    routines.

    Still have the old IBM Technical Reference Manual.
    All that stuff was meticulously documented.

    I designed a ram disk for the Z80, wrote a CP/M clone too
      https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/z80/system14/diagrams/index.html


    Neat stuff



    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to All on Fri Aug 4 09:51:48 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 04/08/2023 06:08, 23k.304 wrote:
    On 8/3/23 2:44 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Wed, 2 Aug 2023 17:47:56 +0100) it happened The Natural
    Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote in <uae1bt$5slp$1@dont-email.me>:



        ANYway, /var/log CAN be moved to a RAMdisk if you want.
        Not 100% sure WHY you'd want to, but it CAN. If a few
        very early logs get 'lost' as you re-direct /var/log
        then that MIGHT not be all so important. If you want
        it all on RAMdisk then you don't CARE if it all
        vanishes on reboot. I very rarely look in /var/log
        anyhow so ....

    As I said, whoever you are, the less writing to an SD drive there is,
    the less chance there is of file system corruption when the power
    goes out.

    To avoid restarts on power failure use a UPS (I do) or just a simple
    battery circuit
    was it not called 'battery hat' or something? with the Pi.


      I remember the "battery hat" - still sold :

      https://www.waveshare.com/li-ion-battery-hat.htm

      But MOST Pi's, because of the high power consumption,
      still run off the mains - so a UPS is probably the
      simplest option. The "battery hat" however might
      serve to deal with very short interruptions.

      However I don't think the most stress to SD cards
      is on boot - but during regular USE ... the usual
      data churning and loading system apps from the
      card. If "ping" is used, well, where does it COME
      from on a PI ? The SD card. Each application has
      to be examined to see what routines are used and
      put them into a RAMdisk or whatever. Remember,
      even reading an SD card involves re-writing the
      thing, that's how the tech works.


    I am not sure it actually does. If you turn off 'last read' with 'noatime' Which you surely would if you cared enough


      Used to do ASM on micro-controllers, but over the past
      decade the better 'C' compilers are actually smarter,
      can do the same in even fewer bytes/cycles than most
      human-writ code. Not by a HUGE margin, but, on tiny
      devices, maybe enough.

    Oh yes. The days of trying to write C that didn't turn into bloat on an
    8 bit 6809...are long gone

    I occasionally looked at .a files on *86, and they wrote better
    assembler than I could.

    So much so that I gave up looking.


    --
    “There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn’t true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.”

    —Soren Kierkegaard

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to David W. Hodgins on Fri Aug 4 09:57:30 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 04/08/2023 04:15, David W. Hodgins wrote:
    On Thu, 03 Aug 2023 22:29:31 -0400, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    I dunno how fast an SSD with a USB interface would be compared with a
    SATA, but if I was using a pi for user level stuff, I'd want some kind
    of SSD in there with the SD card only there to boot the thing.

    sd cards are a lot cheaper. :-)

    But like a bicycle compared to a Ferrari, they are a lot slower, too
    SSD simply flies.


    My impressions is that a Pi is about as fast as a 486 used to be. or
    maybe a bit more. Many people say the latest Pi is pentium 4 level or
    thereabouts.

    This is an rpi 4b, which is a quad core (1 thread per core) and 4GB ram.

    lscpu shows 108.0 BogoMIPS, while my desktop system with an AMD FX(tm)-4170 Quad-Core Processor from 2012 shows 8428.66 BoboMIPS.
    Despite the low number of BogoMIPS, I'm still impressed by it overall.

    It's fine for running the few applications I use it for.

    Regards, Dave Hodgins

    Pi Zero W: BogoMIPS: 697.95
    My desktop - refurbed HP: BogoMIPS: 5399.81

    But it makes no sense - my old server which is nowher as fast show s
    more bogomips


    --
    “Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.”
    ― Groucho Marx

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to All on Fri Aug 4 09:58:30 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 04/08/2023 07:03, 23k.304 wrote:
    Still have the old IBM Technical Reference Manual.
      All that stuff was meticulously documented.

    I gave that away sometime in the late 80s.

    --
    “Progress is precisely that which rules and regulations did not foresee,”

    – Ludwig von Mises

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Fri Aug 4 10:06:46 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 04/08/2023 09:51, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    I am not sure it actually does. If you turn off 'last read' with 'noatime' Which you surely would if you cared enough

    My Pi Zero W came with 'noatime' configured

    root@heating-controller:~# more /etc/fstab
    proc /proc proc defaults 0 0 PARTUUID=b8c9fbb7-01 /boot vfat defaults 0 2 PARTUUID=b8c9fbb7-02 / ext4 defaults,noatime 0 1
    # a swapfile is not a swap partition, no line here
    # use dphys-swapfile swap[on|off] for that
    tmpfs /var/www/data/volatile tmpfs
    nodev,nosuid,noexec,nodiratime,size=1M 0 0
    tmpfs /var/ramlog tmpfs nodev,nosuid,noexec,nodiratime,size=25M 0 0

    It seems Raspios has pretty decent defaults.

    This is good because I will be reading files a * lot*. Probably 16 a second

    PS I also managed to find out from the net how to set the PI Zeros USB
    port to look like an ethernet adapter and service DHCP requests, so it
    can be a web sever to a PC just by plugging it into the PC's USB port.
    Great for setting up the wifi!
    If anyone else wants to know, ask.
    --
    “Progress is precisely that which rules and regulations did not foresee,”

    – Ludwig von Mises

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Martin Gregorie@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Fri Aug 4 10:41:34 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On Fri, 4 Aug 2023 03:38:17 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    Oddly enough my SSD drives seem to be lasting better than the spinning
    rust they replaced. The wear levelling in THOSE really works.
    So my tentative feeling at this point in time is that while /boot might
    be on the SD card, if I were to use a pi for serious R/W everything else would be an SSD mounted somehow at boot. I believe with later PIs you
    can boot the whole thing from USB/SSD or rust.

    IIRC it used to be well known that SD cards (class 10 cards?) that were
    sold for use in video cameras etc. had:

    (a) large storage blocks and
    (b) no wear levelling

    In consequence these cards are not generally useful for use as computer
    filing systems, being designed to hold large (MB to GB) data files that
    would only be written to sequentially and would usually not be edited in
    situ, just deleted in order to make room for recording another video. In consequence only file level operations (record a video, copy or delete a complete file) worked at an acceptable speed.

    --

    Martin | martin at
    Gregorie | gregorie dot org

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Jan Panteltje@3:770/3 to Philosopher on Fri Aug 4 10:26:42 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On a sunny day (Fri, 4 Aug 2023 09:57:30 +0100) it happened The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote in <uaiehq$170d6$6@dont-email.me>:

    On 04/08/2023 04:15, David W. Hodgins wrote:
    On Thu, 03 Aug 2023 22:29:31 -0400, The Natural Philosopher
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    I dunno how fast an SSD with a USB interface would be compared with a
    SATA, but if I was using a pi for user level stuff, I'd want some kind
    of SSD in there with the SD card only there to boot the thing.

    sd cards are a lot cheaper. :-)

    But like a bicycle compared to a Ferrari, they are a lot slower, too
    SSD simply flies.


    My impressions is that a Pi is about as fast as a 486 used to be. or
    maybe a bit more. Many people say the latest Pi is pentium 4 level or
    thereabouts.

    This is an rpi 4b, which is a quad core (1 thread per core) and 4GB ram.

    lscpu shows 108.0 BogoMIPS, while my desktop system with an AMD FX(tm)-4170 >> Quad-Core Processor from 2012 shows 8428.66 BoboMIPS.
    Despite the low number of BogoMIPS, I'm still impressed by it overall.

    It's fine for running the few applications I use it for.

    Regards, Dave Hodgins

    Pi Zero W: BogoMIPS: 697.95
    My desktop - refurbed HP: BogoMIPS: 5399.81

    But it makes no sense - my old server which is nowher as fast show s
    more bogomips

    My Pi4 8GB I am posting this from says:
    raspberrypi: ~ # while [ 1 ] ; do cat /proc/cpuinfo | grep BogoMIPS ; sleep 1 ; done
    BogoMIPS : 216.00
    BogoMIPS : 324.00
    BogoMIPS : 324.00
    BogoMIPS : 324.00
    BogoMIPS : 324.00
    BogoMIPS : 144.00
    BogoMIPS : 144.00
    BogoMIPS : 144.00
    BogoMIPS : 144.00
    BogoMIPS : 180.00
    BogoMIPS : 180.00
    BogoMIPS : 180.00
    BogoMIPS : 180.00
    BogoMIPS : 198.00

    raspberrypi: ~ # lscpu
    Architecture: armv7l
    Byte Order: Little Endian
    CPU(s): 4
    On-line CPU(s) list: 0-3
    Thread(s) per core: 1
    Core(s) per socket: 4
    Socket(s): 1
    Vendor ID: ARM
    Model: 3
    Model name: Cortex-A72
    Stepping: r0p3
    CPU max MHz: 1800.0000
    CPU min MHz: 600.0000
    BogoMIPS: 126.00


    ??
    And my core i5 laptop says:
    4788.51
    runs an old Slackware version

    So much for BogoMIPS
    :-)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Chris Elvidge@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Fri Aug 4 11:54:48 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 04/08/2023 03:38, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 03/08/2023 23:59, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Thu, 3 Aug 2023 23:28:06 +0100
    Pancho <Pancho.Jones@Proton.Me> wrote:

    I guessed that the worry was that the journal was a smallish single
    file, used as a circular buffer (maybe 128MB). So, without wear
    levelling, the same few blocks would be getting hit all the time.

    Remember write amplification - flash storage uses very large blocks
    1MB or more so small writes involve copying most of a block, writing a
    new
    one with the changes and queing the old one to be wiped.

    Indeed.

    Oddly enough my SSD drives seem to be lasting better than the spinning
    rust they replaced. The wear levelling in THOSE really works.
    So my tentative feeling at this point in time is that while /boot might
    be on the SD card, if I were to use a pi for serious R/W everything else would be an SSD mounted somehow at boot.

    That's what I do

    My cmdline.txt:

    console=tty1 root=PARTUUID=72020302-c396-2148-9d13-caf4f68cd18c
    rootfstype=ext4 fsck.repair=yes rootwait quiet splash plymouth.ignore-serial-consoles net.ifnames=0 biosdevname=0
    usbhid.mousepoll=0 dwc_otg.lpm_enable=0

    The PARTUUID is that of half a 120Gb SSD (/dev/sda2). /boot is on a
    250Mb SD card.

    It was (seemed) easier than trying to get USB boot to work (RPi3B).


    I believe with later PIs you
    can boot the whole thing from USB/SSD or rust.

    For me that leads to a sort of tentative conclusions - if I want a busy server, or user desktop, I'd pick a late model Pi and USB boot it. If I
    want an embedded device, I'd pick an SD card and tune the OS not to use
    it, if possible.

    And for serious storage, the later OS supports SATA hats...






    --

    Chris Elvidge, England
    I WILL NOT SELL LAND IN FLORIDA

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Chris Elvidge@3:770/3 to Jan Panteltje on Fri Aug 4 11:43:14 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 04/08/2023 11:26, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 4 Aug 2023 09:57:30 +0100) it happened The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote in <uaiehq$170d6$6@dont-email.me>:

    On 04/08/2023 04:15, David W. Hodgins wrote:
    On Thu, 03 Aug 2023 22:29:31 -0400, The Natural Philosopher
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    I dunno how fast an SSD with a USB interface would be compared with a
    SATA, but if I was using a pi for user level stuff, I'd want some kind >>>> of SSD in there with the SD card only there to boot the thing.

    sd cards are a lot cheaper. :-)

    But like a bicycle compared to a Ferrari, they are a lot slower, too
    SSD simply flies.


    My impressions is that a Pi is about as fast as a 486 used to be. or
    maybe a bit more. Many people say the latest Pi is pentium 4 level or
    thereabouts.

    This is an rpi 4b, which is a quad core (1 thread per core) and 4GB ram. >>>
    lscpu shows 108.0 BogoMIPS, while my desktop system with an AMD FX(tm)-4170 >>> Quad-Core Processor from 2012 shows 8428.66 BoboMIPS.
    Despite the low number of BogoMIPS, I'm still impressed by it overall.

    It's fine for running the few applications I use it for.

    Regards, Dave Hodgins

    Pi Zero W: BogoMIPS: 697.95
    My desktop - refurbed HP: BogoMIPS: 5399.81

    But it makes no sense - my old server which is nowher as fast show s
    more bogomips

    My Pi4 8GB I am posting this from says:
    raspberrypi: ~ # while [ 1 ] ; do cat /proc/cpuinfo | grep BogoMIPS ; sleep 1 ; done
    BogoMIPS : 216.00
    BogoMIPS : 324.00
    BogoMIPS : 324.00
    BogoMIPS : 324.00
    BogoMIPS : 324.00
    BogoMIPS : 144.00
    BogoMIPS : 144.00
    BogoMIPS : 144.00
    BogoMIPS : 144.00
    BogoMIPS : 180.00
    BogoMIPS : 180.00
    BogoMIPS : 180.00
    BogoMIPS : 180.00
    BogoMIPS : 198.00

    raspberrypi: ~ # lscpu
    Architecture: armv7l
    Byte Order: Little Endian
    CPU(s): 4
    On-line CPU(s) list: 0-3
    Thread(s) per core: 1
    Core(s) per socket: 4
    Socket(s): 1
    Vendor ID: ARM
    Model: 3
    Model name: Cortex-A72
    Stepping: r0p3
    CPU max MHz: 1800.0000
    CPU min MHz: 600.0000
    BogoMIPS: 126.00


    ??
    And my core i5 laptop says:
    4788.51
    runs an old Slackware version

    So much for BogoMIPS
    :-)


    Slackware used to do BogoMIPS at startup (perhaps still does) but then
    went on to say measuring BogoMIPS was a waste of time.


    --

    Chris Elvidge, England
    I WILL NOT SELL LAND IN FLORIDA

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Fri Aug 4 16:05:12 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On Fri, 4 Aug 2023 09:51:48 +0100
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    I am not sure it actually does. If you turn off 'last read' with 'noatime' Which you surely would if you cared enough

    Oh that brings back a memory from a long time back. On a visit to
    Altos I saw a machine that one of the engineers there was playing with - it
    was a XENIX machine with four eight inch floppy drives as storage - the
    labels stuck over the drives read (/ /usr /etc and /tmp) - He'd had to turn
    of atime because it was wearing out the tracks holding the inodes.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From David W. Hodgins@3:770/3 to Jan Panteltje on Fri Aug 4 14:07:46 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On Fri, 04 Aug 2023 06:26:42 -0400, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote:
    So much for BogoMIPS

    Agreed. BogoMIPS is useless for showing the cpu speed. It's much faster than
    I expected, which allowed me to use it for much more than simple testing of aarch64 installs, which is all I bought it for.

    Regards, Dave Hodgins

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From David W. Hodgins@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Fri Aug 4 14:37:06 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On Fri, 04 Aug 2023 04:57:30 -0400, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    But like a bicycle compared to a Ferrari, they are a lot slower, too
    SSD simply flies.

    Agreed. I use multiple ssd drives on my main system. The difference in speed between a spinning rust drive and an ssd drive is well worth it. As I do
    a lot of installs and other testing on that system, the speed is worth it.

    I have as my main drive an OCZ-AGILITY4 240GB SSD drive that I've been using since 2011.

    I back it up regularly as I've been expecting it to fail anytime for years. :-) smartctl shows ...
    5 Reallocated_Sector_Ct 0x0000 100 100 000 Old_age Offline - 1
    9 Power_On_Hours 0x0000 100 100 000 Old_age Offline - 89199
    12 Power_Cycle_Count 0x0000 100 100 000 Old_age Offline - 489
    232 Lifetime_Writes 0x0000 100 100 000 Old_age Offline - 93035004612

    The Reallocated_Sector_Ct has been at 1 since shortly after I started using it. The spinning rust drive it replaced only lasted about 5 years.

    For the rpi 4b, I'd be looking at an external enclosure connected via usb, so it wouldn't see the speed of a sata or pcie ssd, but would be a lot faster
    than the sd card, but for what I use it for, not worth the price.

    Regards, Dave Hodgins

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Computer Nerd Kev@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Sat Aug 5 10:17:22 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    In comp.os.linux.misc The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 04/08/2023 04:15, David W. Hodgins wrote:
    lscpu shows 108.0 BogoMIPS, while my desktop system with an AMD FX(tm)-4170 >> Quad-Core Processor from 2012 shows 8428.66 BoboMIPS.
    Despite the low number of BogoMIPS, I'm still impressed by it overall.

    It's fine for running the few applications I use it for.

    Pi Zero W: BogoMIPS: 697.95
    My desktop - refurbed HP: BogoMIPS: 5399.81

    But it makes no sense - my old server which is nowher as fast show s
    more bogomips

    BogoMIPS on ARM is known to show incorrect results. The CPU tricks
    the routine that Linux uses to calculate it, so at least it's
    meaningless compared to the number given on architectures like x86,
    or actual Million Instructions Per Second. Somehow the Linux
    developers haven't been able to fix this.

    "In 2012, ARM contributed a new udelay implementation allowing the
    system timer built into many ARMv7 CPUs to be used instead of a
    busy-wait loop. This implementation was released in Version 3.6 of
    the Linux kernel. Timer-based delays are more robust on systems that
    use frequency scaling to dynamically adjust the processor's speed at
    runtime, as loops_per_jiffies values may not necessarily scale
    linearly. Also, since the timer frequency is known in advance, no
    calibration is needed at boot time.

    One side effect of this change is that the BogoMIPS value will reflect
    the timer frequency, not the CPU's core frequency. Typically the
    timer frequency is much lower than the processor's maximum frequency,
    and some users may be surprised to see an unusually low BogoMIPS value
    when comparing against systems that use traditional busy-wait loops." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BogoMips

    The core frequency on different models isn't directly correlated to
    the CPU's clock frequency on ARM (it gets multiplied), so it's pretty
    much meaningless.

    --
    __ __
    #_ < |\| |< _#

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Computer Nerd Kev@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Sat Aug 5 10:27:54 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    In comp.os.linux.misc The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    My impressions is that a Pi is about as fast as a 486 used to be.

    Perhaps it might seem as fast as a 486 running Linux from the mid
    90s would be. In practice even the Pi Zero should be able to emulate
    that 486 and run the same software at a usable speed. Linux and all
    the software bolted onto it has been getting ever slower over the
    years, but it can seem much faster on the Pi Zero when running more
    minimal distros than RPi OS (OpenWrt, Tiny Core).

    --
    __ __
    #_ < |\| |< _#

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From 23k.304@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Sat Aug 5 00:20:02 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 8/4/23 4:58 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 04/08/2023 07:03, 23k.304 wrote:
    Still have the old IBM Technical Reference Manual.
       All that stuff was meticulously documented.

    I gave that away sometime in the late 80s.

    I consider it to be a "valuable artifact" :-)

    At minimum, it showed how serious and deep they'd
    go with the early PCs. That's when programming was
    still painfully "real". Mostly you could not buy
    what you needed - so you had to make it yourself.

    And I *did* find many uses for that info.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Chris Elvidge on Sat Aug 5 08:56:58 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 04/08/2023 11:54, Chris Elvidge wrote:
    On 04/08/2023 03:38, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 03/08/2023 23:59, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Thu, 3 Aug 2023 23:28:06 +0100
    Pancho <Pancho.Jones@Proton.Me> wrote:

    I guessed that the worry was that the journal was a smallish single
    file, used as a circular buffer (maybe 128MB). So, without wear
    levelling, the same few blocks would be getting hit all the time.

        Remember write amplification - flash storage uses very large blocks >>> 1MB or more so small writes involve copying most of a block, writing
    a new
    one with the changes and queing the old one to be wiped.

    Indeed.

    Oddly enough my SSD drives seem to be lasting better than the spinning
    rust they replaced. The wear levelling in THOSE really works.
    So my tentative feeling at this point in time is that while /boot
    might be on the SD card, if I were to use a pi for serious R/W
    everything else would be an SSD mounted somehow at boot.

    That's what I do

    My cmdline.txt:

    console=tty1 root=PARTUUID=72020302-c396-2148-9d13-caf4f68cd18c rootfstype=ext4 fsck.repair=yes rootwait quiet splash plymouth.ignore-serial-consoles net.ifnames=0 biosdevname=0 usbhid.mousepoll=0 dwc_otg.lpm_enable=0

    The PARTUUID is that of half a 120Gb SSD (/dev/sda2). /boot is on a
    250Mb SD card.

    That seems a logical best solution for an early Pi. The later ones will
    do USB boot, I think.

    (where on earth did you get a 250MB SD card: I cant find anything much
    less than gigabytes these days)


    --
    For in reason, all government without the consent of the governed is the
    very definition of slavery.

    Jonathan Swift

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to All on Sat Aug 5 09:01:40 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 05/08/2023 05:20, 23k.304 wrote:
    On 8/4/23 4:58 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 04/08/2023 07:03, 23k.304 wrote:
    Still have the old IBM Technical Reference Manual.
       All that stuff was meticulously documented.

    I gave that away sometime in the late 80s.

      I consider it to be a "valuable artifact" :-)

      At minimum, it showed how serious and deep they'd
      go with the early PCs. That's when programming was
      still painfully "real". Mostly you could not buy
      what you needed - so you had to make it yourself.

      And I *did* find many uses for that info.
    Oh, so did I. I was assembly programming 8086s then - writing BIOS
    extensions or complete BIOSES for them,

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUVZbBBHrI4

    Or interfacing with special hardware people had built that needed
    drivers written.
    But that line of business dried up, so I ended up doing yet another
    career shift into running IT businesses.


    --
    Climate Change: Socialism wearing a lab coat.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to Computer Nerd Kev on Sat Aug 5 09:26:50 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 5 Aug 2023 10:17:23 +1000
    not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) wrote:

    BogoMIPS on ARM is known to show incorrect results. The CPU tricks
    the routine that Linux uses to calculate it, so at least it's
    meaningless compared to the number given on architectures like x86,
    or actual Million Instructions Per Second. Somehow the Linux
    developers haven't been able to fix this.

    MIPs was a pretty useless concept long before Linux appeared.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to 23k304@bfxw9.net on Sat Aug 5 09:25:24 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On Sat, 5 Aug 2023 00:20:03 -0400
    "23k.304" <23k304@bfxw9.net> wrote:

    On 8/4/23 4:58 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 04/08/2023 07:03, 23k.304 wrote:
    Still have the old IBM Technical Reference Manual.
       All that stuff was meticulously documented.

    I gave that away sometime in the late 80s.

    I consider it to be a "valuable artifact" :-)

    At minimum, it showed how serious and deep they'd
    go with the early PCs. That's when programming was
    still painfully "real". Mostly you could not buy
    what you needed - so you had to make it yourself.

    IBM simply provided the same level of documentation for the PC as
    they did for their mainframes as a matter of habit I think. That made life a lot easier for the clone makers who popped up like mushrooms almost immediately.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Chris Elvidge@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Sat Aug 5 11:21:02 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 05/08/2023 08:56, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 04/08/2023 11:54, Chris Elvidge wrote:
    On 04/08/2023 03:38, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 03/08/2023 23:59, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Thu, 3 Aug 2023 23:28:06 +0100
    Pancho <Pancho.Jones@Proton.Me> wrote:

    I guessed that the worry was that the journal was a smallish single
    file, used as a circular buffer (maybe 128MB). So, without wear
    levelling, the same few blocks would be getting hit all the time.

    Remember write amplification - flash storage uses very large blocks >>>> 1MB or more so small writes involve copying most of a block, writing
    a new
    one with the changes and queing the old one to be wiped.

    Indeed.

    Oddly enough my SSD drives seem to be lasting better than the
    spinning rust they replaced. The wear levelling in THOSE really works.
    So my tentative feeling at this point in time is that while /boot
    might be on the SD card, if I were to use a pi for serious R/W
    everything else would be an SSD mounted somehow at boot.

    That's what I do

    My cmdline.txt:

    console=tty1 root=PARTUUID=72020302-c396-2148-9d13-caf4f68cd18c
    rootfstype=ext4 fsck.repair=yes rootwait quiet splash
    plymouth.ignore-serial-consoles net.ifnames=0 biosdevname=0
    usbhid.mousepoll=0 dwc_otg.lpm_enable=0

    The PARTUUID is that of half a 120Gb SSD (/dev/sda2). /boot is on a
    250Mb SD card.

    That seems a logical best solution for an early Pi. The later ones will
    do USB boot, I think.

    (where on earth did you get a 250MB SD card: I cant find anything much
    less than gigabytes these days)



    Seems the place I got them from is now out-of-stock on all SD cards.


    --

    Chris Elvidge, England
    I WILL NOT DO ANYTHING BAD EVER AGAIN

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Pancho@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Sat Aug 5 14:36:08 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 05/08/2023 09:26, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On 5 Aug 2023 10:17:23 +1000
    not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) wrote:

    BogoMIPS on ARM is known to show incorrect results. The CPU tricks
    the routine that Linux uses to calculate it, so at least it's
    meaningless compared to the number given on architectures like x86,
    or actual Million Instructions Per Second. Somehow the Linux
    developers haven't been able to fix this.

    MIPs was a pretty useless concept long before Linux appeared.


    Anecdotally, GeekBench seems reasonable.

    <https://browser.geekbench.com/v6/cpu/265980>

    AMD Ryzen 5 7600, 2701, 12071
    Orange Pi 5, 841, 2911
    Intel i5 2500K, 634, 1903
    Intel Core i5-750, 433, 1223
    Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600, 271, 764
    Raspberry Pi 4 B r1.4 253, 617


    I was actually surprised at how fast the new Ryzen was. Maybe it is time
    to buy a new PC.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Charlie Gibbs@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Sat Aug 5 14:36:38 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 2023-08-05, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

    On 5 Aug 2023 10:17:23 +1000
    not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) wrote:

    BogoMIPS on ARM is known to show incorrect results. The CPU tricks
    the routine that Linux uses to calculate it, so at least it's
    meaningless compared to the number given on architectures like x86,
    or actual Million Instructions Per Second. Somehow the Linux
    developers haven't been able to fix this.

    MIPs was a pretty useless concept long before Linux appeared.

    Hence the acronym: Meaningless Indication of Processor Speed.

    --
    /~\ Charlie Gibbs | You can't save the earth
    \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | unless you're willing to
    X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | make other people sacrifice.
    / \ if you read it the right way. | -- Dogbert the green consultant

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to Pancho on Sat Aug 5 15:23:20 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On Sat, 5 Aug 2023 14:36:08 +0100
    Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> wrote:

    I was actually surprised at how fast the new Ryzen was. Maybe it is time
    to buy a new PC.

    I haven't done that in a long time. I used to buy parts and make
    them but these days I buy "refurbished"* ex-corporate machines which are
    cheap and far better made than the typical consumer PC.

    * Read cleaned, OS reinstalled and stripped of asset tags.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to Charlie Gibbs on Sat Aug 5 17:14:38 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On Sat, 05 Aug 2023 14:36:39 GMT
    Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:

    Hey Charlie, long time no see.

    On 2023-08-05, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

    MIPs was a pretty useless concept long before Linux appeared.

    Hence the acronym: Meaningless Indication of Processor Speed.

    Dats de bunny.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Sat Aug 5 17:57:32 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 05/08/2023 15:23, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Sat, 5 Aug 2023 14:36:08 +0100
    Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> wrote:

    I was actually surprised at how fast the new Ryzen was. Maybe it is time
    to buy a new PC.

    I haven't done that in a long time. I used to buy parts and make
    them but these days I buy "refurbished"* ex-corporate machines which are cheap and far better made than the typical consumer PC.


    As do I.
    Apart from video editing, which I dont do so much any more, my highest
    CPU usage is now either websites clogged with javaScript, or playing a
    realtime game and that is more GPU than CPU

    My 5 year old HP desktop was simply, out of its refurbished box, better
    than anything I need at far less power consumption than what it replaced.

    I only bought it as a cheap platform to test out a major Linux upgrade
    as I wanted to leave its predecessor there in case the upgrade didn't
    work. It's predecessor is STILL sitting there.


    * Read cleaned, OS reinstalled and stripped of asset tags.


    Pretty much yes. And of course discs removed and replaced with SSDs.
    Corporate discs automatically go to the crusher.


    --
    "First, find out who are the people you can not criticise. They are your oppressors."
    - George Orwell

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Chris Elvidge on Sat Aug 5 18:04:34 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 05/08/2023 11:21, Chris Elvidge wrote:
    On 05/08/2023 08:56, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 04/08/2023 11:54, Chris Elvidge wrote:
    On 04/08/2023 03:38, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 03/08/2023 23:59, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Thu, 3 Aug 2023 23:28:06 +0100
    Pancho <Pancho.Jones@Proton.Me> wrote:

    I guessed that the worry was that the journal was a smallish single >>>>>> file, used as a circular buffer (maybe 128MB). So, without wear
    levelling, the same few blocks would be getting hit all the time.

        Remember write amplification - flash storage uses very large
    blocks
    1MB or more so small writes involve copying most of a block,
    writing a new
    one with the changes and queing the old one to be wiped.

    Indeed.

    Oddly enough my SSD drives seem to be lasting better than the
    spinning rust they replaced. The wear levelling in THOSE really works. >>>> So my tentative feeling at this point in time is that while /boot
    might be on the SD card, if I were to use a pi for serious R/W
    everything else would be an SSD mounted somehow at boot.

    That's what I do

    My cmdline.txt:

    console=tty1 root=PARTUUID=72020302-c396-2148-9d13-caf4f68cd18c
    rootfstype=ext4 fsck.repair=yes rootwait quiet splash
    plymouth.ignore-serial-consoles net.ifnames=0 biosdevname=0
    usbhid.mousepoll=0 dwc_otg.lpm_enable=0

    The PARTUUID is that of half a 120Gb SSD (/dev/sda2). /boot is on a
    250Mb SD card.

    That seems a logical best solution for an early Pi. The later ones
    will do USB boot, I think.

    (where on earth did you get a 250MB SD card: I cant find anything much
    less than gigabytes these days)



    Seems the place I got them from is now out-of-stock on all SD cards.


    I had a look, and they are available in unknown brand from at least
    amazon at £7.69

    By comparison my Sandisk 16GB class 10 A1 whateverthefuckthatmeans SD
    was only £6 from the Pi hut.

    https://thepihut.com/products/sandisk-microsd-card-class-10-a1

    --
    "If you don’t read the news paper, you are un-informed. If you read the
    news paper, you are mis-informed."

    Mark Twain

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Chris Elvidge on Sat Aug 5 18:27:00 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 05/08/2023 11:21, Chris Elvidge wrote:
    On 05/08/2023 08:56, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 04/08/2023 11:54, Chris Elvidge wrote:
    On 04/08/2023 03:38, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 03/08/2023 23:59, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Thu, 3 Aug 2023 23:28:06 +0100
    Pancho <Pancho.Jones@Proton.Me> wrote:

    I guessed that the worry was that the journal was a smallish single >>>>>> file, used as a circular buffer (maybe 128MB). So, without wear
    levelling, the same few blocks would be getting hit all the time.

        Remember write amplification - flash storage uses very large
    blocks
    1MB or more so small writes involve copying most of a block,
    writing a new
    one with the changes and queing the old one to be wiped.

    Indeed.

    Oddly enough my SSD drives seem to be lasting better than the
    spinning rust they replaced. The wear levelling in THOSE really works. >>>> So my tentative feeling at this point in time is that while /boot
    might be on the SD card, if I were to use a pi for serious R/W
    everything else would be an SSD mounted somehow at boot.

    That's what I do

    My cmdline.txt:

    console=tty1 root=PARTUUID=72020302-c396-2148-9d13-caf4f68cd18c
    rootfstype=ext4 fsck.repair=yes rootwait quiet splash
    plymouth.ignore-serial-consoles net.ifnames=0 biosdevname=0
    usbhid.mousepoll=0 dwc_otg.lpm_enable=0

    The PARTUUID is that of half a 120Gb SSD (/dev/sda2). /boot is on a
    250Mb SD card.

    That seems a logical best solution for an early Pi. The later ones
    will do USB boot, I think.

    (where on earth did you get a 250MB SD card: I cant find anything much
    less than gigabytes these days)



    Seems the place I got them from is now out-of-stock on all SD cards.


    I had a further look, as its a dull wet day and its bloody cold for
    summer, and in fact you are hard pressed to even find a card under 1GB
    at all, and they are not the cheapest.

    The current price point minimum seems to be around 16GB


    --
    "Strange as it seems, no amount of learning can cure stupidity, and
    higher education positively fortifies it."

    - Stephen Vizinczey

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Sat Aug 5 18:48:48 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 05/08/2023 18:19, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Sat, 5 Aug 2023 17:57:32 +0100
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    Pretty much yes. And of course discs removed and replaced with SSDs.
    Corporate discs automatically go to the crusher.

    IME they don't even leave the office with the PCs, the IT
    department removes them and puts them in the box to go to the crusher.

    Usually some contract firm doing the IT upgrade does that.

    --
    "An intellectual is a person knowledgeable in one field who speaks out
    only in others...”

    Tom Wolfe

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Sat Aug 5 18:19:54 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On Sat, 5 Aug 2023 17:57:32 +0100
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    Pretty much yes. And of course discs removed and replaced with SSDs. Corporate discs automatically go to the crusher.

    IME they don't even leave the office with the PCs, the IT
    department removes them and puts them in the box to go to the crusher.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Sat Aug 5 19:16:16 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On Sat, 5 Aug 2023 18:48:48 +0100
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 05/08/2023 18:19, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Sat, 5 Aug 2023 17:57:32 +0100
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    Pretty much yes. And of course discs removed and replaced with SSDs.
    Corporate discs automatically go to the crusher.

    IME they don't even leave the office with the PCs, the IT
    department removes them and puts them in the box to go to the crusher.

    Usually some contract firm doing the IT upgrade does that.

    Probably depends on the size of the IT department - the last place
    I saw it happen was Yahoo! where internal staff did it.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Sat Aug 5 20:28:24 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 05/08/2023 19:16, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Sat, 5 Aug 2023 18:48:48 +0100
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 05/08/2023 18:19, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Sat, 5 Aug 2023 17:57:32 +0100
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    Pretty much yes. And of course discs removed and replaced with SSDs.
    Corporate discs automatically go to the crusher.

    IME they don't even leave the office with the PCs, the IT
    department removes them and puts them in the box to go to the crusher.

    Usually some contract firm doing the IT upgrade does that.

    Probably depends on the size of the IT department - the last place
    I saw it happen was Yahoo! where internal staff did it.

    A relative was (contract) managing projects like this for IBM. Who
    were the 'IT department' for several insurance firms. I cant remember
    who actually removed the drives, but I got the impressions it was the
    firm in charge of recycling, whose contracts were written in blood and
    cursed by corporate zombies.

    So as I understood it, the PCs went to a firm who swore to remove the
    drives and crush them.

    After that I assume they went to industrial auctions where refurb firms
    bid for them

    All the machines I have bought came with brand new SSD drives and a
    fresh install of WinShit, which I promptly erased as soon as Linux was installed.

    And the thing is that a corporate Lenovo, Dell or HP machine is far more
    likely to install out of the box than some bleeding edge assembled by
    morons POS gaming machine or cut price system built from substandard parts.

    And cost peanuts in comparison. I cant buy a new machine for what a
    refurb of equivalent power costs. The bean counters write these things
    off against tax, and the people who deal with them quote low prices to
    remove them on the understanding that an undeclared asset is being
    transferred as well. So they make a decent margin onselling them, but
    they are still bloody cheap.




    --
    “The fundamental cause of the trouble in the modern world today is that
    the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt."

    - Bertrand Russell

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Martin Gregorie@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Sat Aug 5 21:14:44 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On Sat, 5 Aug 2023 15:23:21 +0100, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:

    On Sat, 5 Aug 2023 14:36:08 +0100 Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> wrote:

    I was actually surprised at how fast the new Ryzen was. Maybe it is
    time to buy a new PC.

    I haven't done that in a long time. I used to buy parts and make
    them but these days I buy "refurbished"* ex-corporate machines which are cheap and far better made than the typical consumer PC.

    * Read cleaned, OS reinstalled and stripped of asset tags.

    It may well be worth looking at getting a new PC.

    Since around 2005 my house server was a Dual Athlon PC in a noname case
    and not new when I got it in 2005 and has had at least two new disks (bog standard WD 500MB blue) since then. Last April it collapsed in a heap and
    was replaced with a new system with a Ryzen 3 43006 chip: 500 GB RAM and
    500 GB M2 SSD. I also took the opportunity to replace my slow ADSL house connection with a FTTC fibre link.

    The difference has been dramatic: the new system cold boots in 41 secs
    (from hitting the 'on' button until the Login' prompt appears). I have
    password protection on the M2 SSD so this includes the time needed to
    enter the SSD password.

    Weekly backups (by rsync to a local 3.5" WD Essentials USB drive is at
    least 5 times faster. Similarly, The weekly Fedora dnf-managed package
    update that follows it is now getting read at 4.2 Mb/sec rather than the
    480 kB/sec I used to get over ADSL on a good day and the step that follows
    the backup and update: running rkhunter also shows a similar speedup.

    --

    Martin | martin at
    Gregorie | gregorie dot org

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Sat Aug 5 22:23:06 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On Sat, 5 Aug 2023 20:28:24 +0100
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 05/08/2023 19:16, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Sat, 5 Aug 2023 18:48:48 +0100
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    Usually some contract firm doing the IT upgrade does that.

    Probably depends on the size of the IT department - the last
    place I saw it happen was Yahoo! where internal staff did it.

    A relative was (contract) managing projects like this for IBM. Who

    Figures, Yahoo! was busy going down the pan at the time there's no
    way they'd be springing for the kind of services IBM would use.

    All the machines I have bought came with brand new SSD drives and a
    fresh install of WinShit, which I promptly erased as soon as Linux was installed.

    Yep - it costs them next to nothing to put it on there. For me it's FreeBSD that gets to install itself over the whole disc. It's been failing
    to annoy me for thirty years now, I've yet to encounter a Linux that lasted
    a month without annoying me. There's a Linux VM lurking for a couple of
    slicer applications that I can't be bothered to try and make run under FreeBSD's compatibility layer.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Computer Nerd Kev@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Sun Aug 6 11:45:06 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    In comp.os.linux.misc The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    I had a further look, as its a dull wet day and its bloody cold for
    summer, and in fact you are hard pressed to even find a card under 1GB
    at all, and they are not the cheapest.

    Unless you buy used cards on Ebay from people who pull them out of
    old phones. I got a bunch of 16GB cards that way and most have
    worked well. One was toast. The smallest ones, 128MB or 64MB, are
    usually cheapest from those sellers.

    --
    __ __
    #_ < |\| |< _#

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From 23k.304@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Sun Aug 6 00:01:48 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 8/5/23 4:01 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 05/08/2023 05:20, 23k.304 wrote:
    On 8/4/23 4:58 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 04/08/2023 07:03, 23k.304 wrote:
    Still have the old IBM Technical Reference Manual.
       All that stuff was meticulously documented.

    I gave that away sometime in the late 80s.

       I consider it to be a "valuable artifact" :-)

       At minimum, it showed how serious and deep they'd
       go with the early PCs. That's when programming was
       still painfully "real". Mostly you could not buy
       what you needed - so you had to make it yourself.

       And I *did* find many uses for that info.
    Oh, so did I. I was assembly programming 8086s then - writing BIOS
    extensions or complete BIOSES for them,

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUVZbBBHrI4

    Shoulda gone with the Frenchies, they LOVE nuke ! :-)

    Never went as far as a full BIOS. Leveraging what IS,
    what's commercial, what's widespread and "standard"
    was generally my approach. In the time it takes to
    write a BIOS, esp solo, I could do ten times the stuff
    with my approach.

    But to each ...


    Or interfacing with special hardware people had built that needed
    drivers written.
    But that line of business dried up, so I ended up doing yet another
    career shift into running IT businesses.

    Once you COULD buy lots of neat stuff off the shelf,
    then yea, a focus shift made sense. Never tried/wanted
    to RUN businesses though - massive pain in the ass and
    biz WAY too often winds up in the shitter.

    Was still programming in solder into maybe half a
    dozen years ago - stuff you couldn't, or wouldn't,
    buy off the shelf. However that stuff was for
    microcontrollers, not real CPUs.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Sun Aug 6 08:13:24 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 05/08/2023 22:23, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Sat, 5 Aug 2023 20:28:24 +0100
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 05/08/2023 19:16, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Sat, 5 Aug 2023 18:48:48 +0100
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    Usually some contract firm doing the IT upgrade does that.

    Probably depends on the size of the IT department - the last
    place I saw it happen was Yahoo! where internal staff did it.

    A relative was (contract) managing projects like this for IBM. Who

    Figures, Yahoo! was busy going down the pan at the time there's no
    way they'd be springing for the kind of services IBM would use.

    All the machines I have bought came with brand new SSD drives and a
    fresh install of WinShit, which I promptly erased as soon as Linux was
    installed.

    Yep - it costs them next to nothing to put it on there. For me it's FreeBSD that gets to install itself over the whole disc. It's been failing
    to annoy me for thirty years now, I've yet to encounter a Linux that lasted
    a month without annoying me. There's a Linux VM lurking for a couple of slicer applications that I can't be bothered to try and make run under FreeBSD's compatibility layer.

    Horses for courses. What runs on my *desktop* needs to be up to date,
    and user friendly. I do all the complex shit on servers and Pis.

    I write code on this, but I don't compile it on this machine.


    --
    Truth welcomes investigation because truth knows investigation will lead
    to converts. It is deception that uses all the other techniques.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Computer Nerd Kev on Sun Aug 6 08:21:04 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 06/08/2023 02:45, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
    In comp.os.linux.misc The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    I had a further look, as its a dull wet day and its bloody cold for
    summer, and in fact you are hard pressed to even find a card under 1GB
    at all, and they are not the cheapest.

    Unless you buy used cards on Ebay from people who pull them out of
    old phones. I got a bunch of 16GB cards that way and most have
    worked well. One was toast. The smallest ones, 128MB or 64MB, are
    usually cheapest from those sellers.

    When you are looking at second hand SD cards plus postage, the cost
    benefit analyis told me I should pay the money for whatever was the
    current best price on new stuff , with plenty of life left, from the
    same shop that was shipping me the Pi. To leverage the postage. and that
    turns out to be 16GB. Why, I don't have a clue. I could ask an old
    college friend who used to work designing NAND flash in California, but
    I am not sure I give a rat's arse why.

    Again, you asses a situation and what you want, and work out the least
    cost and effort to arrive at that target. If I could get 2GB cards at 5
    for £10 I'd use those, But I cant.

    I was interested because I don't remember ever having an SD card for my
    ancient camera that was that small (256MB).

    --
    Truth welcomes investigation because truth knows investigation will lead
    to converts. It is deception that uses all the other techniques.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to All on Sun Aug 6 08:51:30 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 06/08/2023 05:01, 23k.304 wrote:
    On 8/5/23 4:01 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 05/08/2023 05:20, 23k.304 wrote:
    On 8/4/23 4:58 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 04/08/2023 07:03, 23k.304 wrote:
    Still have the old IBM Technical Reference Manual.
       All that stuff was meticulously documented.

    I gave that away sometime in the late 80s.

       I consider it to be a "valuable artifact" :-)

       At minimum, it showed how serious and deep they'd
       go with the early PCs. That's when programming was
       still painfully "real". Mostly you could not buy
       what you needed - so you had to make it yourself.

       And I *did* find many uses for that info.
    Oh, so did I. I was assembly programming 8086s then - writing BIOS
    extensions or complete BIOSES for them,

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUVZbBBHrI4

      Shoulda gone with the Frenchies, they LOVE nuke !  :-)

      Never went as far as a full BIOS. Leveraging what IS,
      what's commercial, what's widespread and "standard"
      was generally my approach. In the time it takes to
      write a BIOS, esp solo, I could do ten times the stuff
      with my approach.

      But to each ...

    I was being paid to get custom designed hardware to perform.
    This minicomputer company wanted an 8088 board to control the other
    boards in their super fault tolerant computer. So there it was, a bare
    8088 board with PROm and some RAM and they wanted to be able to load
    code from an 8" floppy, and drive a serial monitor, oh and while you are
    at it, write us a full C library in ROM and an FORTH interpreter -
    here's the source code in a 150 page scan of some magazine article.

    That's 6 months of my life I wont get back. They were going to write a multitasking basic operating system on top of that but my contract
    expired before they got that far.



    Or interfacing with special hardware people had built that needed
    drivers written.
    But that line of business dried up, so I ended up doing yet another
    career shift into running IT businesses.

      Once you COULD buy lots of neat stuff off the shelf,
      then yea, a focus shift made sense. Never tried/wanted
      to RUN businesses though - massive pain in the ass and
      biz WAY too often winds up in the shitter.

    No option. No one wanted a 43 year old self taught programmer. They
    wanted bushy tailed youngsters who wrote C++ and had been schooled in
    all sorts of theoretical shit that enabled them to justify writing
    shitty bug filled code.

    When no one is offering jobs, it sensible to invent your own. It
    started as technical support, but as it became apparent that the other
    people in the business hadn't a clue how to actually run a business -
    accounts, operations, technical support and so on, I ended up running
    more than half the employees.

    I needed a job, and that was the only way I could guarantee the business
    didn't fall to pieces with incompetence.

    Well it fell to pieces with ego, so a couple of us started another one,
    and I ended up running most of that too.
    When I had enough cash accumulated, and my co directors wife started
    trashing the business, we sold it and I gave up work altogether.

    I'd frankly had enough. So I retired at 50.


      Was still programming in solder into maybe half a
      dozen years ago - stuff you couldn't, or wouldn't,
      buy off the shelf. However that stuff was for
      microcontrollers, not real CPUs.

    I still solder stuff together. And I will be for this current Pi project
    too. I need an internal mains power supply for the server - to hell with
    USB wall warts - and I need a special bit of kit that turns on after up
    to an hours delay, boots a pico and runs it until the PICO has done its
    stuff and issues a shutdown signal on a GPIO pin, and puts the whole
    thing to sleep at a couple of µA or so for up to an hour, to get a
    decent battery life.

    Oddly enough the best solution to that looks to be not some specialised
    complex chip, but an old school simple 4000 series CMOS Schmitt
    trigger, some Rs and Cs, and three boring old school transistors. 1970s technology in fact.

    In quiescent state, the only current draw will be leakage current on the transistors charge current on the timing capacitor and the quiescent
    current of the CMOS Schmitt, which at 4.5v is less than a µA...the best
    I could do with clever chips like a CMOS 555 timer was around 16µA.

    If it works I might get some PCBS made up for that. Lots of people might
    want a PICO for use as a remote sensor on batteries on an 'occasional'
    basis.

    So old school it is. I am hoping for at least a years battery life on
    the oil tank sensor. Even if that means only monitoring the level once
    an hour or less.


    --
    “Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.”

    H.L. Mencken, A Mencken Chrestomathy

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Jan Panteltje on Sun Aug 6 08:59:00 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 06/08/2023 06:31, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Sat, 5 Aug 2023 21:14:45 -0000 (UTC)) it happened Martin Gregorie <martin@mydomain.invalid> wrote in <uame45$1ntb9$3@dont-email.me>:

    On Sat, 5 Aug 2023 15:23:21 +0100, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:

    On Sat, 5 Aug 2023 14:36:08 +0100 Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> wrote: >>>
    I was actually surprised at how fast the new Ryzen was. Maybe it is
    time to buy a new PC.

    I haven't done that in a long time. I used to buy parts and make >>> them but these days I buy "refurbished"* ex-corporate machines which are >>> cheap and far better made than the typical consumer PC.

    * Read cleaned, OS reinstalled and stripped of asset tags.

    It may well be worth looking at getting a new PC.

    Since around 2005 my house server was a Dual Athlon PC in a noname case
    and not new when I got it in 2005 and has had at least two new disks (bog
    standard WD 500MB blue) since then. Last April it collapsed in a heap and
    was replaced with a new system with a Ryzen 3 43006 chip: 500 GB RAM and
    500 GB M2 SSD. I also took the opportunity to replace my slow ADSL house
    connection with a FTTC fibre link.

    The difference has been dramatic: the new system cold boots in 41 secs
    (from hitting the 'on' button until the Login' prompt appears). I have
    password protection on the M2 SSD so this includes the time needed to
    enter the SSD password.

    Weekly backups (by rsync to a local 3.5" WD Essentials USB drive is at
    least 5 times faster. Similarly, The weekly Fedora dnf-managed package
    update that follows it is now getting read at 4.2 Mb/sec rather than the
    480 kB/sec I used to get over ADSL on a good day and the step that follows >> the backup and update: running rkhunter also shows a similar speedup.

    I used to put PCs together myself, mother board, PCI card, etc
    I have still 2 PCs.
    the first one is > 20 years old and runs GRML Linux, is an AMD system
    its working upstairs and has a ton of software I wrote and a PCI satellite reception card
    so I sometimes use it to do things like dish positioning:
    https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/satellite/
    Am radio ham too and we have now QO100 geostationary satellite for example to send an receive from.
    Am not very active as where I live now it requires climbing high ladders to reach the dish...
    The other PC is > 10 years old and had an LG M-DISC drive so I can burn DVDs and blu-rays etc too.
    But it had a bad crash after some mains power dip, so put old Slackware on it and some of my DVD
    soft I wrote...
    Not used much now if at all, was also put together myself
    My Samsung laptop is from 2011 or so and for 'on the go', Huawei 4G stick internet everywhere.,
    and I have 5 Raspberries, 2 of those are Pi4, for daily use.
    3 are now on 24/7 on a UPS, one I post this from, one records security cams and plays background music if needed,
    records weather, air traffic ship traffic, radiation all to a 4 TB Toshiba USB disk.
    One runs as server.

    I think I will not buy / construct a new PC.
    My Samsung TV (also 20 years old ) can play HD from the 1 TB harddisk I have plugged in it.
    and I can record anything I can receive from satellite or DVB-T2 terrestrial with the 30 Euro or so cheap boxes
    from ebay with 128 GB USB sticks plugged into it.
    Why need more computer power?
    To have the bloat say 'hello there?'

    It is a conspiracy, make a more bloated OS, sell more hardware that needs it? Need a faster network to do the ever bigger updates?
    The news remains the same.
    Ever higher TV resolution? Buy a new TV set ever 10, 5, 2 ?? LOL years? Games? I have Xmahjong ... Programming is more fun..


    Now they want to replace cash with digital money it seems.....
    Just wait for the next big solar storm or high altitude nuke and that is all it needs
    to kill all sats and electricity and back to barter trade...
    if there is anything like food left to trade, as fridges need electricity too.
    We should NOT become too dependent on electricity, electric cars and all that,
    only diversity can keep us alive, we should not forget those skills.

    I have some good solar panels stuff and a 250 AH lifepo4 battery pack and a 12V to 230V converter so I can at least
    cook food or maybe even keep a fridge running when the WW3 str// power is out for a short while...
    hehe

    It's amazing how much of the modern up to date utterly fashionable
    technology one finds one neither needs nor wants.

    I had a 'Damascene' moment sitting in the sun, roasting some meat on a
    braai, in a game park in South Africa watching some hippos and
    crocodiles (fortunately the other side of a river), when I realised that
    all of civilisation is there really simply to keep us warm and put food
    on the table and give us somewhere safe to sleep at night, and the rest
    is simply there because we get bored.

    Well, I have a place to sleep safely at night, and mostly warm and
    always have food.

    I'll settle for that, and as to getting bored - what were computers and
    the internet invented for if not to allow access to all sorts of weird
    shit?

    (I know, they were both invented, like integrated circuits, to fight
    wars with. Hey ho).



    --
    I would rather have questions that cannot be answered...
    ...than to have answers that cannot be questioned

    Richard Feynman

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Jan Panteltje@3:770/3 to Philosopher on Sun Aug 6 08:42:46 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On a sunny day (Sun, 6 Aug 2023 08:51:31 +0100) it happened The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote in <uanje4$25fvd$1@dont-email.me>:

    On 06/08/2023 05:01, 23k.304 wrote:
    On 8/5/23 4:01 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 05/08/2023 05:20, 23k.304 wrote:
    On 8/4/23 4:58 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 04/08/2023 07:03, 23k.304 wrote:
    Still have the old IBM Technical Reference Manual.
       All that stuff was meticulously documented.

    I gave that away sometime in the late 80s.

       I consider it to be a "valuable artifact" :-)

       At minimum, it showed how serious and deep they'd
       go with the early PCs. That's when programming was
       still painfully "real". Mostly you could not buy
       what you needed - so you had to make it yourself.

       And I *did* find many uses for that info.
    Oh, so did I. I was assembly programming 8086s then - writing BIOS
    extensions or complete BIOSES for them,

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUVZbBBHrI4

      Shoulda gone with the Frenchies, they LOVE nuke !  :-)

      Never went as far as a full BIOS. Leveraging what IS,
      what's commercial, what's widespread and "standard"
      was generally my approach. In the time it takes to
      write a BIOS, esp solo, I could do ten times the stuff
      with my approach.

      But to each ...

    I was being paid to get custom designed hardware to perform.
    This minicomputer company wanted an 8088 board to control the other
    boards in their super fault tolerant computer. So there it was, a bare
    8088 board with PROm and some RAM and they wanted to be able to load
    code from an 8" floppy, and drive a serial monitor, oh and while you are
    at it, write us a full C library in ROM and an FORTH interpreter -
    here's the source code in a 150 page scan of some magazine article.

    That's 6 months of my life I wont get back. They were going to write a >multitasking basic operating system on top of that but my contract
    expired before they got that far.



    Or interfacing with special hardware people had built that needed
    drivers written.
    But that line of business dried up, so I ended up doing yet another
    career shift into running IT businesses.

      Once you COULD buy lots of neat stuff off the shelf,
      then yea, a focus shift made sense. Never tried/wanted
      to RUN businesses though - massive pain in the ass and
      biz WAY too often winds up in the shitter.

    No option. No one wanted a 43 year old self taught programmer. They
    wanted bushy tailed youngsters who wrote C++ and had been schooled in
    all sorts of theoretical shit that enabled them to justify writing
    shitty bug filled code.

    When no one is offering jobs, it sensible to invent your own. It
    started as technical support, but as it became apparent that the other
    people in the business hadn't a clue how to actually run a business - >accounts, operations, technical support and so on, I ended up running
    more than half the employees.

    I needed a job, and that was the only way I could guarantee the business >didn't fall to pieces with incompetence.

    Well it fell to pieces with ego, so a couple of us started another one,
    and I ended up running most of that too.
    When I had enough cash accumulated, and my co directors wife started
    trashing the business, we sold it and I gave up work altogether.

    I'd frankly had enough. So I retired at 50.


    I had a TV repair shop for years during the late seventies and early eighties. Worked for the national TV network here before that
    and before that designed electronics for the among other things army and navy. After the repair shop did many things, often via agencies.
    Electronics is everywhere so gained knowledge of a lot of fields
    from missiles to medical (worked in a university hospital too) and space and physics (accelerator).

    Curiosity is likely what drives me.






      Was still programming in solder into maybe half a
      dozen years ago - stuff you couldn't, or wouldn't,
      buy off the shelf. However that stuff was for
      microcontrollers, not real CPUs.

    I still solder stuff together. And I will be for this current Pi project
    too. I need an internal mains power supply for the server - to hell with
    USB wall warts - and I need a special bit of kit that turns on after up
    to an hours delay, boots a pico and runs it until the PICO has done its
    stuff and issues a shutdown signal on a GPIO pin, and puts the whole
    thing to sleep at a couple of µA or so for up to an hour, to get a
    decent battery life.

    Oddly enough the best solution to that looks to be not some specialised >complex chip, but an old school simple 4000 series CMOS Schmitt
    trigger, some Rs and Cs, and three boring old school transistors. 1970s >technology in fact.

    In quiescent state, the only current draw will be leakage current on the >transistors charge current on the timing capacitor and the quiescent
    current of the CMOS Schmitt, which at 4.5v is less than a µA...the best
    I could do with clever chips like a CMOS 555 timer was around 16µA.

    If it works I might get some PCBS made up for that. Lots of people might
    want a PICO for use as a remote sensor on batteries on an 'occasional'
    basis.

    So old school it is. I am hoping for at least a years battery life on
    the oil tank sensor. Even if that means only monitoring the level once
    an hour or less.

    I have done a fluid level sensor with just a 4040 counter and an echo system 555 timer, sending a beep down to the surface and counting ticks before the echo returns
    Was in the eighties.
    Distance sensors are now less than 2 Euro or on ebay..
    https://www.ebay.co.uk/b/ultrasonic-distance-sensor/bn_7024750003
    done a lot of experiments with those ebay things too, for example wind speed measurements:
    http://panteltje.nl/pub/wind_speed_by_differential_2_ebay_distance_meters_IMG_4891.JPG
    http://panteltje.nl/pub/44kHz_radar_time_of_flight_test_in_wind_tunnel_IMG_4105.JPG

    But am from origin electronics hardware, programming came later..
    I do not always see the need for any Raspberry stuff in equipment, I use Microchip 18F14K22 chips
    that I program in asm.
    Those have ADCs, PWM generators, a simple DAC, counters, etc etc and sleep mode with only nano amps.
    For an other e dollars or so you can add an USB interface.
    For the 'network' its a bit more complicated, I need an extra chip
    As the ebay modules are so cheap who cares .
    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/285358235060

    PICs can drive a nice OLED or LCD display no problem:
    http://panteltje.nl/pub/gamma_spectrometer_plus_probe_plus_geiger_counter_2_IMG_4185.JPG
    https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/pic/scope_pic/

    Only external code I use is the 32 bit PIC asm math routines written by somebody else.

    No emulators no debuggers used ever.
    serial port and a scope is all I need.
    No million dollar scope, 10 MHz dual trace is enough.

    ASM is easy,
    C is OK.
    The rest I do not want to know about ;-)
    Seems these day you can ask AI to write the code...
    I wonder....
    :-)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Jan Panteltje@3:770/3 to Philosopher on Sun Aug 6 09:04:30 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On a sunny day (Sun, 6 Aug 2023 08:59:00 +0100) it happened The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote in <uanjs4$25fvd$2@dont-email.me>:

    On 06/08/2023 06:31, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Sat, 5 Aug 2023 21:14:45 -0000 (UTC)) it happened Martin
    Gregorie <martin@mydomain.invalid> wrote in <uame45$1ntb9$3@dont-email.me>: >>
    On Sat, 5 Aug 2023 15:23:21 +0100, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:

    On Sat, 5 Aug 2023 14:36:08 +0100 Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> wrote: >>>>
    I was actually surprised at how fast the new Ryzen was. Maybe it is
    time to buy a new PC.

    I haven't done that in a long time. I used to buy parts and make >>>> them but these days I buy "refurbished"* ex-corporate machines which are >>>> cheap and far better made than the typical consumer PC.

    * Read cleaned, OS reinstalled and stripped of asset tags.

    It may well be worth looking at getting a new PC.

    Since around 2005 my house server was a Dual Athlon PC in a noname case
    and not new when I got it in 2005 and has had at least two new disks (bog >>> standard WD 500MB blue) since then. Last April it collapsed in a heap and >>> was replaced with a new system with a Ryzen 3 43006 chip: 500 GB RAM and >>> 500 GB M2 SSD. I also took the opportunity to replace my slow ADSL house >>> connection with a FTTC fibre link.

    The difference has been dramatic: the new system cold boots in 41 secs
    (from hitting the 'on' button until the Login' prompt appears). I have
    password protection on the M2 SSD so this includes the time needed to
    enter the SSD password.

    Weekly backups (by rsync to a local 3.5" WD Essentials USB drive is at
    least 5 times faster. Similarly, The weekly Fedora dnf-managed package
    update that follows it is now getting read at 4.2 Mb/sec rather than the >>> 480 kB/sec I used to get over ADSL on a good day and the step that follows >>> the backup and update: running rkhunter also shows a similar speedup.

    I used to put PCs together myself, mother board, PCI card, etc
    I have still 2 PCs.
    the first one is > 20 years old and runs GRML Linux, is an AMD system
    its working upstairs and has a ton of software I wrote and a PCI satellite reception card
    so I sometimes use it to do things like dish positioning:
    https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/satellite/
    Am radio ham too and we have now QO100 geostationary satellite for example to send an receive from.
    Am not very active as where I live now it requires climbing high ladders to reach the dish...
    The other PC is > 10 years old and had an LG M-DISC drive so I can burn DVDs and blu-rays etc too.
    But it had a bad crash after some mains power dip, so put old Slackware on it and some of my DVD
    soft I wrote...
    Not used much now if at all, was also put together myself
    My Samsung laptop is from 2011 or so and for 'on the go', Huawei 4G stick internet everywhere.,
    and I have 5 Raspberries, 2 of those are Pi4, for daily use.
    3 are now on 24/7 on a UPS, one I post this from, one records security cams and plays background music if needed,
    records weather, air traffic ship traffic, radiation all to a 4 TB Toshiba USB disk.
    One runs as server.

    I think I will not buy / construct a new PC.
    My Samsung TV (also 20 years old ) can play HD from the 1 TB harddisk I have plugged in it.
    and I can record anything I can receive from satellite or DVB-T2 terrestrial with the 30 Euro or so cheap boxes
    from ebay with 128 GB USB sticks plugged into it.
    Why need more computer power?
    To have the bloat say 'hello there?'

    It is a conspiracy, make a more bloated OS, sell more hardware that needs it?
    Need a faster network to do the ever bigger updates?
    The news remains the same.
    Ever higher TV resolution? Buy a new TV set ever 10, 5, 2 ?? LOL years?
    Games? I have Xmahjong ... Programming is more fun..


    Now they want to replace cash with digital money it seems.....
    Just wait for the next big solar storm or high altitude nuke and that is all it needs
    to kill all sats and electricity and back to barter trade...
    if there is anything like food left to trade, as fridges need electricity too.
    We should NOT become too dependent on electricity, electric cars and all that,
    only diversity can keep us alive, we should not forget those skills.

    I have some good solar panels stuff and a 250 AH lifepo4 battery pack and a 12V to 230V converter so I can at least
    cook food or maybe even keep a fridge running when the WW3 str// power is out for a short while...
    hehe

    It's amazing how much of the modern up to date utterly fashionable
    technology one finds one neither needs nor wants.

    I had a 'Damascene' moment sitting in the sun, roasting some meat on a
    braai, in a game park in South Africa watching some hippos and
    crocodiles (fortunately the other side of a river), when I realised that
    all of civilisation is there really simply to keep us warm and put food
    on the table and give us somewhere safe to sleep at night, and the rest
    is simply there because we get bored.

    Well, I have a place to sleep safely at night, and mostly warm and
    always have food.

    I'll settle for that, and as to getting bored - what were computers and
    the internet invented for if not to allow access to all sorts of weird
    shit?

    (I know, they were both invented, like integrated circuits, to fight
    wars with. Hey ho).

    Yes, for me curiosity.. I survived in N 'merrica in the wild
    water from a stream and some things I dug up.
    Travelled there all over the place survived their 'civilization' and system. Did all sorts of works to get money to be able to eat and travel.
    Got arrested near the Mexican border as my visum had expired and was put in jail,
    some sort of cage, together with some Mexicans that wanted to enter the US to work there to feed their families.
    Picked oranges with the blacks, later worked for the police, lived with the gangs in NY,
    good thing I did see West Side Story before I went to the US,
    hiked, travelled with some hippies...
    Africa seems nice, hippos are predictable :-)
    Learn to set traps, about plants and animal life.
    Eat or be eaten!
    evolution..
    Bit more warming, mass migration, society as we know it may fall apart.

    We may need to move / spread our species to other planets to protect civilization as we know it..

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Jan Panteltje on Sun Aug 6 10:11:42 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 06/08/2023 09:42, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Sun, 6 Aug 2023 08:51:31 +0100) it happened The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote in <uanje4$25fvd$1@dont-email.me>:

    On 06/08/2023 05:01, 23k.304 wrote:
    On 8/5/23 4:01 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 05/08/2023 05:20, 23k.304 wrote:
    On 8/4/23 4:58 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 04/08/2023 07:03, 23k.304 wrote:
    Still have the old IBM Technical Reference Manual.
       All that stuff was meticulously documented.

    I gave that away sometime in the late 80s.

       I consider it to be a "valuable artifact" :-)

       At minimum, it showed how serious and deep they'd
       go with the early PCs. That's when programming was
       still painfully "real". Mostly you could not buy
       what you needed - so you had to make it yourself.

       And I *did* find many uses for that info.
    Oh, so did I. I was assembly programming 8086s then - writing BIOS
    extensions or complete BIOSES for them,

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUVZbBBHrI4

      Shoulda gone with the Frenchies, they LOVE nuke !  :-)

      Never went as far as a full BIOS. Leveraging what IS,
      what's commercial, what's widespread and "standard"
      was generally my approach. In the time it takes to
      write a BIOS, esp solo, I could do ten times the stuff
      with my approach.

      But to each ...

    I was being paid to get custom designed hardware to perform.
    This minicomputer company wanted an 8088 board to control the other
    boards in their super fault tolerant computer. So there it was, a bare
    8088 board with PROm and some RAM and they wanted to be able to load
    code from an 8" floppy, and drive a serial monitor, oh and while you are
    at it, write us a full C library in ROM and an FORTH interpreter -
    here's the source code in a 150 page scan of some magazine article.

    That's 6 months of my life I wont get back. They were going to write a
    multitasking basic operating system on top of that but my contract
    expired before they got that far.



    Or interfacing with special hardware people had built that needed
    drivers written.
    But that line of business dried up, so I ended up doing yet another
    career shift into running IT businesses.

      Once you COULD buy lots of neat stuff off the shelf,
      then yea, a focus shift made sense. Never tried/wanted
      to RUN businesses though - massive pain in the ass and
      biz WAY too often winds up in the shitter.

    No option. No one wanted a 43 year old self taught programmer. They
    wanted bushy tailed youngsters who wrote C++ and had been schooled in
    all sorts of theoretical shit that enabled them to justify writing
    shitty bug filled code.

    When no one is offering jobs, it sensible to invent your own. It
    started as technical support, but as it became apparent that the other
    people in the business hadn't a clue how to actually run a business -
    accounts, operations, technical support and so on, I ended up running
    more than half the employees.

    I needed a job, and that was the only way I could guarantee the business
    didn't fall to pieces with incompetence.

    Well it fell to pieces with ego, so a couple of us started another one,
    and I ended up running most of that too.
    When I had enough cash accumulated, and my co directors wife started
    trashing the business, we sold it and I gave up work altogether.

    I'd frankly had enough. So I retired at 50.


    I had a TV repair shop for years during the late seventies and early eighties.
    Worked for the national TV network here before that
    and before that designed electronics for the among other things army and navy.
    After the repair shop did many things, often via agencies.
    Electronics is everywhere so gained knowledge of a lot of fields
    from missiles to medical (worked in a university hospital too) and space and physics (accelerator).

    Curiosity is likely what drives me.






      Was still programming in solder into maybe half a
      dozen years ago - stuff you couldn't, or wouldn't,
      buy off the shelf. However that stuff was for
      microcontrollers, not real CPUs.

    I still solder stuff together. And I will be for this current Pi project
    too. I need an internal mains power supply for the server - to hell with
    USB wall warts - and I need a special bit of kit that turns on after up
    to an hours delay, boots a pico and runs it until the PICO has done its
    stuff and issues a shutdown signal on a GPIO pin, and puts the whole
    thing to sleep at a couple of µA or so for up to an hour, to get a
    decent battery life.

    Oddly enough the best solution to that looks to be not some specialised
    complex chip, but an old school simple 4000 series CMOS Schmitt
    trigger, some Rs and Cs, and three boring old school transistors. 1970s
    technology in fact.

    In quiescent state, the only current draw will be leakage current on the
    transistors charge current on the timing capacitor and the quiescent
    current of the CMOS Schmitt, which at 4.5v is less than a µA...the best
    I could do with clever chips like a CMOS 555 timer was around 16µA.

    If it works I might get some PCBS made up for that. Lots of people might
    want a PICO for use as a remote sensor on batteries on an 'occasional'
    basis.

    So old school it is. I am hoping for at least a years battery life on
    the oil tank sensor. Even if that means only monitoring the level once
    an hour or less.

    I have done a fluid level sensor with just a 4040 counter and an echo system 555 timer, sending a beep down to the surface and counting ticks before the echo returns
    Was in the eighties.
    Distance sensors are now less than 2 Euro or on ebay..
    https://www.ebay.co.uk/b/ultrasonic-distance-sensor/bn_7024750003
    done a lot of experiments with those ebay things too, for example wind speed measurements:
    http://panteltje.nl/pub/wind_speed_by_differential_2_ebay_distance_meters_IMG_4891.JPG
    http://panteltje.nl/pub/44kHz_radar_time_of_flight_test_in_wind_tunnel_IMG_4105.JPG

    But am from origin electronics hardware, programming came later..
    I do not always see the need for any Raspberry stuff in equipment, I use Microchip 18F14K22 chips
    that I program in asm.
    Those have ADCs, PWM generators, a simple DAC, counters, etc etc and sleep mode with only nano amps.
    For an other e dollars or so you can add an USB interface.
    For the 'network' its a bit more complicated, I need an extra chip
    As the ebay modules are so cheap who cares .
    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/285358235060

    PICs can drive a nice OLED or LCD display no problem:
    http://panteltje.nl/pub/gamma_spectrometer_plus_probe_plus_geiger_counter_2_IMG_4185.JPG
    https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/pic/scope_pic/

    Only external code I use is the 32 bit PIC asm math routines written by somebody else.

    No emulators no debuggers used ever.
    serial port and a scope is all I need.
    No million dollar scope, 10 MHz dual trace is enough.

    ASM is easy,
    C is OK.
    The rest I do not want to know about ;-)
    Seems these day you can ask AI to write the code...
    I wonder....
    :-)


    We seem to be similar in many respects. I started out in electronics.
    But as a designer, really the job died in the 1970s. After that is was
    all large scale integrated chips, and there was no challenge to it. So I
    taught myself software.


    C to me was just a faster way to write assembler.
    'if..{} else {} is quicker than MOV, CMP JNE, JMP etc etc

    And the way C used the stack to allocate temporary variable space to
    remove the need for complex memory management or else global memory
    assignment was pure genius. I think that first appeared in ALGOL. It
    allowed recursive functions to be simply coded.





    --
    For in reason, all government without the consent of the governed is the
    very definition of slavery.

    Jonathan Swift

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Jan Panteltje on Sun Aug 6 10:34:22 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 06/08/2023 10:04, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    Bit more warming, mass migration, society as we know it may fall apart.

    Most societal collapses seem to occur because one resource or another
    that is so fundamental to a societies existence, runs out or just stops
    for natural reasons.
    It might be water, a supply of fish, or anything. Today its energy. Our
    society is utterly dependent on energy derived from coal oil and gas.
    And the so called 'renewables' are no replacement for it.

    Coal enabled the UK population to rise from 5-10 million to 50 million,
    oil and gas has taken us to 70-80 million. No one knows, there are so
    many illegal immigrants these days . Renewable energy will take us back
    to 5 million - or probably less, as we do not have a pre-existent system
    set up to achieve anything at all with say horses or oxen,

    Nuclear might take us to 100 million. But no one seems to want that. I
    think they prefer to die.

    We may need to move / spread our species to other planets to protect civilization as we know it..

    I don't think we 'need' to do anything. In a Godless world we find
    Nature is supremely indifferent to our success or failure as a species.
    What persists in this world is whatever lucks out and finds a *way* to
    persist, for a time. As circumstances change, species change.

    As a general species, we have become as unbelievably arrogant as we have
    become unbelievably stupid. Or perhaps we always were, but civilization
    now has been built by the clever few, us engineers, and the rest of the population is simply incapable of understanding it or keeping it going,
    and worse, doesn't even understand that their very lives depend on it.

    We have built a society where even the most ill adapted and incompetent
    can survive and prosper, and in that mood of compassion, have
    inadvertently built a world full of people who are simply too stupid to
    keep it going. And given them enough political power to destroy it.
    Which they are doing.

    Ah well. Darwin in action. We tried.

    I won't live to see the worst of the collapse.

    Its a shame. Id like to see all these unbelievably arrogant and stupid
    people dying in screaming agony as the realisation dawns that everything
    they were told or believed in was all a load of utter shit, and that no
    matter how much they scream about their 'rights', and what the
    government *ought* to be doing, there is simply no one left to give them
    a single thought.

    Life is rough, tough and desperately unjust. Life's a bitch, and then
    you die.

    It's a shame that these lessons are no longer taught.

    --
    When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over
    the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that
    authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.

    Frédéric Bastiat

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  • From Jan Panteltje@3:770/3 to Philosopher on Sun Aug 6 12:33:58 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On a sunny day (Sun, 6 Aug 2023 10:34:22 +0100) it happened The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote in <uanpeu$26dmj$1@dont-email.me>:

    On 06/08/2023 10:04, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    Bit more warming, mass migration, society as we know it may fall apart.

    Most societal collapses seem to occur because one resource or another
    that is so fundamental to a societies existence, runs out or just stops
    for natural reasons.
    It might be water, a supply of fish, or anything. Today its energy. Our >society is utterly dependent on energy derived from coal oil and gas.
    And the so called 'renewables' are no replacement for it.

    Coal enabled the UK population to rise from 5-10 million to 50 million,
    oil and gas has taken us to 70-80 million. No one knows, there are so
    many illegal immigrants these days . Renewable energy will take us back
    to 5 million - or probably less, as we do not have a pre-existent system
    set up to achieve anything at all with say horses or oxen,

    Nuclear might take us to 100 million. But no one seems to want that. I
    think they prefer to die.

    We may need to move / spread our species to other planets to protect civilization as we know it..

    I don't think we 'need' to do anything. In a Godless world we find
    Nature is supremely indifferent to our success or failure as a species.
    What persists in this world is whatever lucks out and finds a *way* to >persist, for a time. As circumstances change, species change.

    As a general species, we have become as unbelievably arrogant as we have >become unbelievably stupid. Or perhaps we always were, but civilization
    now has been built by the clever few, us engineers, and the rest of the >population is simply incapable of understanding it or keeping it going,
    and worse, doesn't even understand that their very lives depend on it.

    We have built a society where even the most ill adapted and incompetent
    can survive and prosper, and in that mood of compassion, have
    inadvertently built a world full of people who are simply too stupid to
    keep it going. And given them enough political power to destroy it.
    Which they are doing.

    Ah well. Darwin in action. We tried.

    I won't live to see the worst of the collapse.

    Its a shame. Id like to see all these unbelievably arrogant and stupid >people dying in screaming agony as the realisation dawns that everything
    they were told or believed in was all a load of utter shit, and that no >matter how much they scream about their 'rights', and what the
    government *ought* to be doing, there is simply no one left to give them
    a single thought.

    Life is rough, tough and desperately unjust. Life's a bitch, and then
    you die.

    It's a shame that these lessons are no longer taught.

    Yes, when I see those 'save the world' activist glue themselves to airport runways
    screwing up people's holidays...
    I would like to sent those to a re-education camp.
    Teach them some technology, as technology is the only thing that is able to keep us
    alive in the numbers we are now - when climate changes.
    Most of them do not even know how to connect a light bulb.
    Brainwashed by green fanatics.
    OTOH world wars, Darwin, one ant heap against the other, what's new.
    May the best one win!
    Maybe I am lucky, born just after WW2 and we have lived in peace here for so long now.
    Fear for nuclear... shutting down nuclear power plants.. fear for CO2, fear sells!
    And so does snake oil, closing farms because cows produce CO2.
    Here they let wolves multiply as that species 'must be protected', while the wolves attack the sheep and farmers...
    You are a criminal if you shoot one!
    We need hose farmers and farms for food!
    World upside down, next poisonous snakes will be protected as more of those will appear as climate heats up?
    Mosquitos?

    So, some space ships and some colonies on some other planets or asteroids,
    why not.
    A thousand years ago nobody could fly as birds were considered lighter than air and we heavier...

    I personally think life is self-assembling,
    you have quarks and protons, neutrons, electrons, atoms , molecules , forming living cells, those form us, we make cellphones...
    ever more complex.
    Would be interesting to go 'out there' and see what else nature has come up with!!

    :-) bit of luck and SETI decodes a nice alien show :-)

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  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to Jan Panteltje on Sun Aug 6 14:51:10 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On Sun, 06 Aug 2023 12:33:58 GMT
    Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote:

    Yes, when I see those 'save the world' activist glue themselves to
    airport runways screwing up people's holidays...

    These people are idiots - they have no idea how much needs to be
    done before we can stop burning oil, coal and gas - which we have no
    choice about we have to do that well before it runs out otherwise we'll
    never survive the energy wars.

    Nobody is going to permit nuclear until far too late (it probably already is nuclear plants are not quick things to build) which leaves renewables as the only game in town - we *have* to make them work! It is physically possible to make them work given that we now have reliable flow battery designs, the rest is simply a matter of engineering much of it
    civil!

    If we're really lucky something better might turn up while we're at
    it but we can't count on that or a sudden embracing of nuclear power - any engineer worth their salt knows you have to work with what you've got, it's
    no use wishing for what you can't have.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

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  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Sun Aug 6 14:06:12 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On Sun, 6 Aug 2023 10:11:43 +0100
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    And the way C used the stack to allocate temporary variable space to
    remove the need for complex memory management or else global memory assignment was pure genius. I think that first appeared in ALGOL. It
    allowed recursive functions to be simply coded.

    Yes block structure arrived in programming with Algol.

    The early documentation on procedure calls in Algol I was mind numbingly strange because it did not refer to a stack - it was written in
    terms of textually putting the subroutine code where the call was with modifications to the variable names to achieve the same effect. We
    covered in college, when it got to recursion most of the minds in the
    lecture hall went into meltdown. I was lucky, I already knew about stacks
    and spent most of the lecture marvelling at the baroque explanations.

    Algol was OK but at college it was BCPL that I really liked working
    in - we didn't have C because we did have Martin Richards.

    I learned C one the job (from a photocopy of the reference section
    of K&R first edition) writing a table driven remote debugging tool for folks writing games for the early cartridge based consoles - the other part of
    the job was making the fake cartridges with RAM for the game code, an
    overlay EPROM for startup and a serial port to run it from.

    One cool part of that job was the people - my boss was Nick Toop
    who designed the Acorn Atom (I learned a lot from him!) and the owner of the company was David Levy who only just got away with his cash challenge for anyone with a chess program that could beat him - he set a five year time limit, it took less than six!

    We had a wonderfully eerie window display, it was a beautifully made prototype of a chess machine which appeared to be no more than a very
    thick board with normal pieces on it and a marked out space to store the
    pieces off the board ... You played it by moving the pieces and the
    computer played by sliding the pieces around the board (the jiggling to do
    a knights move was fun to watch). There was nothing visible moving the
    pieces. You could even put the pieces on the board randomly, hit the "setup" button and watch them move silently into place all by themselves.

    Inside the thick board was an stepper driven X-Y mechanism holding
    an electromagnet, inside each piece was a bit of steel and a tuned L-C
    passive resonator, I'm sure you can work out the details.

    It didn't sell, they cut costs going into production and replaced
    the carved wooden case and pieces with moulded plastic and the brass gears
    with nylon ones - result it looked tacky and squeaked. The prototype looked like an expensive chess set and was silent. IMHO they should have gone with keeping the quality high, raising the price to luxury levels and providing software updates for a price.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

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  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Sun Aug 6 14:41:12 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On Sun, 6 Aug 2023 10:34:22 +0100
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    Coal enabled the UK population to rise from 5-10 million to 50 million,

    Pity about what it did to their lungs but yes.

    oil and gas has taken us to 70-80 million. No one knows, there are so
    many illegal immigrants these days . Renewable energy will take us back
    to 5 million - or probably less, as we do not have a pre-existent system
    set up to achieve anything at all with say horses or oxen,

    Renewable energy requires two things in order to handle the load,
    it needs a LOT of wind, tide, solar ... plants building and it needs a lot
    of mid to long term efficient energy storage, enough to run everything out
    of storage for at least a week and preferably ten days (globally the requirements are best measured in terawatt hours and the numbers aren't
    small).

    The plants can be built quickly despite the NIMBY brigade - quickly enough I don't know but it seems likely. I really like the floating solar plants that are starting to happen - the panels work a lot better when
    they're water cooled and you could even put a water source heat pump under them.

    The storage is the big one - there's nowhere near enough gravity
    based storage options around, there's nothing like enough lithium either
    and don't even think about lead/acid. If those were all the options I'd be agreeing with you wholeheartedly but ...

    There is plenty of vanadium, iron and chlorine for the current crop
    of grid scale flow batteries - they tick a lot of boxes, long live
    electrodes, zero (yes zero) self discharge (unless the tanks leak), cheap
    and safe. We'd need between two hundred and a thousand litres of
    electrolyte (depends on the chemistry) per person to hold ten days of two hundred watts average each.

    The task is huge but it is not too huge - it can be expected to
    take decades and it is already happening as fast as production can go. When flow battery electrode assemblies hit the DIY market things will really
    be moving. I expect that within a decade followed by IBLCs getting hard to obtain.

    Nuclear might take us to 100 million. But no one seems to want that. I
    think they prefer to die.

    There is precisely no chance of getting enough nuclear plants built before we all die and what do we do when that fuel runs out ?

    The sun is good for the next five billion years, the core heat
    might give out sooner but not much and the moon's orbital momentum won't
    even notice if we stop the tides globally.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Sun Aug 6 15:44:10 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 06/08/2023 14:51, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Sun, 06 Aug 2023 12:33:58 GMT
    Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote:

    Yes, when I see those 'save the world' activist glue themselves to
    airport runways screwing up people's holidays...

    These people are idiots - they have no idea how much needs to be
    done before we can stop burning oil, coal and gas - which we have no
    choice about we have to do that well before it runs out otherwise we'll
    never survive the energy wars.

    Nobody is going to permit nuclear until far too late (it probably already is nuclear plants are not quick things to build) which leaves renewables as the only game in town - we *have* to make them work! It is physically possible to make them work given that we now have reliable flow battery designs, the rest is simply a matter of engineering much of it
    civil!

    No, it is not possible to make them work. Not sustainably anyway. I have
    spent years studying this and that is the simple conclusion


    If we're really lucky something better might turn up while we're at
    it but we can't count on that or a sudden embracing of nuclear power - any engineer worth their salt knows you have to work with what you've got, it's no use wishing for what you can't have.

    There will be either a sudden embracing of nuclear power, after the
    lights go out in the white house, or the collapse of civilisation as we
    know it.

    There are no other viable scenarios

    --
    To ban Christmas, simply give turkeys the vote.

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  • From Martin Gregorie@3:770/3 to Jan Panteltje on Sun Aug 6 14:53:04 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On Sun, 06 Aug 2023 12:33:58 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote:

    Teach them some technology, as technology is the only thing that is able
    to keep us alive in the numbers we are now - when climate changes.
    Most of them do not even know how to connect a light bulb.
    Brainwashed by green fanatics.

    Take Kathmandu in Nepal: (I've been there twice - both by road in the
    '70s). Then Swayambhu was a 20 minute walk through paddy fields from the
    centre of Kathmandhu and to took as bus to Braktapur, at the east end of
    the Kathmandhu Valley. Now Kathmandu occupies virtually the while damn
    valley.

    Some serious population reduction would be a good idea. Worldwide, but
    maybe climate change will solve that problem Real Soon Now

    Teach people some limits too: the world was a much nicer place in the '70s
    with the population on the 2 Billion region and the number of megacities
    could still be counted on one hand.

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  • From Martin Gregorie@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Sun Aug 6 14:22:04 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On Sun, 6 Aug 2023 08:21:04 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 06/08/2023 02:45, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
    In comp.os.linux.misc The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
    wrote:
    When you are looking at second hand SD cards plus postage, the cost
    benefit analyis told me I should pay the money for whatever was the
    current best price on new stuff , with plenty of life left, from the
    same shop that was shipping me the Pi. To leverage the postage. and that turns out to be 16GB. Why, I don't have a clue. I could ask an old
    college friend who used to work designing NAND flash in California, but
    I am not sure I give a rat's arse why.

    Again, you asses a situation and what you want, and work out the least
    cost and effort to arrive at that target. If I could get 2GB cards at 5
    for £10 I'd use those, But I cant.

    I was interested because I don't remember ever having an SD card for my ancient camera that was that small (256MB).

    I use 8GB Samsung in my cameras and flight recorders. If you buy branded
    cards from brands that are known the own their own chip fab, then you're
    less likely to end up with some chunk of junk with memory to hold just a fraction of its advertised capacity.


    --

    Martin | martin at
    Gregorie | gregorie dot org

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  • From Pancho@3:770/3 to Martin Gregorie on Sun Aug 6 15:45:08 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 05/08/2023 22:14, Martin Gregorie wrote:
    On Sat, 5 Aug 2023 15:23:21 +0100, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:

    On Sat, 5 Aug 2023 14:36:08 +0100 Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> wrote:

    I was actually surprised at how fast the new Ryzen was. Maybe it is
    time to buy a new PC.

    I haven't done that in a long time. I used to buy parts and make
    them but these days I buy "refurbished"* ex-corporate machines which are
    cheap and far better made than the typical consumer PC.

    * Read cleaned, OS reinstalled and stripped of asset tags.

    It may well be worth looking at getting a new PC.

    Since around 2005 my house server was a Dual Athlon PC in a noname case
    and not new when I got it in 2005 and has had at least two new disks (bog standard WD 500MB blue) since then.

    I think it all depends, what you want. If you don't already have a PC
    less than 10 years old, then second-hand deals are good.

    In most respects I found a 10-year-old 2500K, OK to use. Up until a
    couple of years ago it was my desktop, then its graphics card broke, and
    it got relegated to HTPC, it wasn't so good at that. I've just replaced
    it with an Orange Pi 5, with caveats, the Orange Pi 5 is better as a TV computer. The Orange Pi 5 was cheap. I've also bought a couple of low
    power new NUC types for about £200, for relatives, e.g. Intel N5150,
    they are generally happy with them.

    Mainly I've been interested in small low wattage PCs, it is only
    recently that they have been quicker than my old 2500K. The new big
    desktops were quick, but not that much quicker, maybe twice as fast, for
    a reasonable price. Now, the Ryzen 5 7600 is looking to be 3-4 times as
    fast, single thread, more than 3-4 multi thread. Which might be
    noticeable, for me, I don't know. Without having one, it is hard to know.

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  • From Martin Gregorie@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Sun Aug 6 15:06:36 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On Sun, 6 Aug 2023 14:51:10 +0100, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:

    Nobody is going to permit nuclear until far too late (it probably already is nuclear plants are not quick things to build) which leaves renewables as the only game in town - we *have* to make them work!

    Besides, the non-thinking multitude won't allow them to be built.

    It is physically possible to make them work given that we now have
    reliable flow battery designs, the rest is simply a matter of
    engineering much of it civil!

    Yes: I've known about flow batteries for at least 20 years and they seem
    like an ideal power source, so why aren't they in widespread use already?

    If we're really lucky something better might turn up while we're
    at
    it but we can't count on that or a sudden embracing of nuclear power -
    any engineer worth their salt knows you have to work with what you've
    got, it's no use wishing for what you can't have.

    Yep, and I'm not holding my breath for fusion to arrive any time soon.


    --

    Martin | martin at
    Gregorie | gregorie dot org

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  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to Martin Gregorie on Sun Aug 6 19:57:38 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On Sun, 6 Aug 2023 15:06:37 -0000 (UTC)
    Martin Gregorie <martin@mydomain.invalid> wrote:

    Yes: I've known about flow batteries for at least 20 years and they seem
    like an ideal power source, so why aren't they in widespread use already?

    It is only quite recently that there have been electrodes that don't either degrade quickly, poison the main reaction, have too many unwanted
    side reactions, need regular difficult maintenance or are otherwise unusable commercially.

    The principle is easy but the details are fiddly.

    Currently there are only two good electrode designs both subject to commercial patent and involving fairly complex chemistry and construction.
    Both are in commercial use.

    One works with a vanadium based electrolyte and is rated to run
    for twenty years before it degrades too much and another that works with
    ferric chloride as the electrolyte that apparently does not degrade at all, IIRC the manufacturers provide a 30 year guarantee of no performance loss.
    The vanadium electrolyte has a much higher energy density (around 200Wh/l
    IIRC) while ferric chloride is only good for about 50Wh/l.

    Both companies are actively selling into the grid storage market
    with products that start at four forty foot containers and go up to as many acres as is wanted. Their current market is the minutes to hours storage
    sector which can be very profitable for the battery owners - lithium
    apparently works best in the seconds to minutes sector but gets
    unreasonably expensive for longer term storage.

    There are a bunch of startups in early stages of funding and product development going for the domestic market with the vanadium chemistry.
    Their products look pretty but seem too small to me.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

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  • From Charlie Gibbs@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Mon Aug 7 01:55:34 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 2023-08-06, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    Coal enabled the UK population to rise from 5-10 million to 50 million,
    oil and gas has taken us to 70-80 million. No one knows, there are so
    many illegal immigrants these days . Renewable energy will take us back
    to 5 million - or probably less, as we do not have a pre-existent system
    set up to achieve anything at all with say horses or oxen,

    Nuclear might take us to 100 million. But no one seems to want that. I
    think they prefer to die.

    They believe that nook-yoo-lur is EEEvil, and can't conceive that
    some of the alternatives are far worse.

    Thomas Malthus got a lot of it right over 200 years ago - but back
    then there were still few enough of us that people could get away
    with believing that the planet's space and resources were infinite.

    What's really going to destroy us is the belief by many - especially
    our ruling classes - that our population can and must increase
    indefinitely. People cannot allow themselves to realize that there
    are hard limits - for example, the entire planet being converted into
    people, crawling over each other like a swarm of bees. If our population continues to double every 40 years, we'll reach that point in 1800 years.
    A more realistic limit - one person for every square meter of dry land
    on the planet - will be reached in only 600 years. But anyone with any
    sense will realize that the crash will happen much sooner than that.

    Its a shame. Id like to see all these unbelievably arrogant and stupid people dying in screaming agony as the realisation dawns that everything
    they were told or believed in was all a load of utter shit, and that no matter how much they scream about their 'rights', and what the
    government *ought* to be doing, there is simply no one left to give them
    a single thought.

    Life is rough, tough and desperately unjust. Life's a bitch, and then
    you die.

    It's a shame that these lessons are no longer taught.

    Oh, we don't want to bruise their precious egos.

    --
    /~\ Charlie Gibbs | You can't save the earth
    \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | unless you're willing to
    X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | make other people sacrifice.
    / \ if you read it the right way. | -- Dogbert the green consultant

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  • From 23k.304@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Mon Aug 7 01:31:26 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 8/4/23 4:51 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 04/08/2023 06:08, 23k.304 wrote:
    On 8/3/23 2:44 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Wed, 2 Aug 2023 17:47:56 +0100) it happened The Natural
    Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote in
    <uae1bt$5slp$1@dont-email.me>:



        ANYway, /var/log CAN be moved to a RAMdisk if you want.
        Not 100% sure WHY you'd want to, but it CAN. If a few
        very early logs get 'lost' as you re-direct /var/log
        then that MIGHT not be all so important. If you want
        it all on RAMdisk then you don't CARE if it all
        vanishes on reboot. I very rarely look in /var/log
        anyhow so ....

    As I said, whoever you are, the less writing to an SD drive there is,
    the less chance there is of file system corruption when the power
    goes out.

    To avoid restarts on power failure use a UPS (I do) or just a simple
    battery circuit
    was it not called 'battery hat' or something? with the Pi.


       I remember the "battery hat" - still sold :

       https://www.waveshare.com/li-ion-battery-hat.htm

       But MOST Pi's, because of the high power consumption,
       still run off the mains - so a UPS is probably the
       simplest option. The "battery hat" however might
       serve to deal with very short interruptions.

       However I don't think the most stress to SD cards
       is on boot - but during regular USE ... the usual
       data churning and loading system apps from the
       card. If "ping" is used, well, where does it COME
       from on a PI ? The SD card. Each application has
       to be examined to see what routines are used and
       put them into a RAMdisk or whatever. Remember,
       even reading an SD card involves re-writing the
       thing, that's how the tech works.


    I am not sure it actually does. If you turn off 'last read' with 'noatime' Which you surely would if you cared enough

    A right move ... but doesn't entirely solve the
    SD-wear problem. System apps you're using a lot
    really MUST be moved to RAMdisk. A certain amount
    of the OS does wind up on its own RAMdisk, but
    it might not be what YOU are using a lot.

    Hey, Raspbian might be 2gb image on the SD card
    but yer Pi, depending on model, might not have
    much more RAM (or even LESS if it's a Pi-1/2).
    As such the WHOLE OS cannot be put into RAM.
    All the parts that can't, well, they get read
    over and over from the SD.

    SD's are GREAT - but on PI's and such you've
    gotta THINK about it.

       Used to do ASM on micro-controllers, but over the past
       decade the better 'C' compilers are actually smarter,
       can do the same in even fewer bytes/cycles than most
       human-writ code. Not by a HUGE margin, but, on tiny
       devices, maybe enough.

    Oh yes. The days of trying to write C that didn't turn into bloat on an
    8 bit 6809...are long gone

    The compiler-writers have become VERY VERY good.
    Stuff I commonly wrote in ASM on u-controllers
    is actually smaller/faster now using 'C'. That's
    just IMPRESSIVE.

    I occasionally looked at .a files on *86, and they wrote better
    assembler than I could.

    The old 'Dilbert' narrow-tie people WERE damned good.
    Modern hardware with a lot more resources kind of
    made them obsolete - any 10-year-old could write
    adequate code then.

    So much so that I gave up looking.

    I went to 'C' and PASCAL early on. ASM became only
    for a handful of very weird things neither did well
    at the time.

    Shit though ... I remember a job where I had to
    work the (newfangled) 8087 math co-proc from
    BASIC - that code being copied/translated from
    older FORTRAN statistical routines. What a huge
    pain in the ass. DATA statements galore ! The
    '87 was NOT like normal CPUs, very odd register
    sets and procedures to make it work and get
    data back FROM the damned thing. Still, made
    the code run about 25x faster ...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to 23k304@bfxw9.net on Mon Aug 7 07:41:26 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On Mon, 7 Aug 2023 00:53:05 -0400
    "23k.304" <23k304@bfxw9.net> wrote:

    ALGOL was originally a "demo", "proof of concept", not
    intended for the real world. I seem to remember that the

    Indeed it was - and Algol 68 was a computer scientist wet dream.

    <no mention of stacks>
    Well, sort of "new concept" ... they had to cast it
    in more conventional terms. A couple of images would

    There was another reason - there were a lot of machines that didn't have stacks so the design did not force an implementation. That's a trick
    many designers never seem to learn.

    have made it MUCH more clear. Guess those were too
    expensive :-) Nothing more useless than an attempted
    TEXT DESCRIPTION of something best suited for a VISUAL
    description.

    Ah the ancient lament - "Oh for a muse of fire ..." - Shakespeare pining for a 21st century special effects department!

    Early back in the IBM/PC era there was a company that
    was selling "un-copyable" floppy disks. Turned out the
    trick was a tiny laser hole in the medium. Phillipe

    Sounds not too dissimilar to some of the later DVD copy prevention tricks, trigger the error handling and ...

    Khan ("Borland") offered a BOUNTY for anyone who could
    find a work-around. I seem to remember it was just a
    couple of days. The disk-makers went out of biz.

    Figures, there was a guy I was at college with in 1978 who would
    have made short work of that - he broke copy protection for a living!

    Yep. Would have been very visually impressive !

    It sat in the window playing demo games - every so often someone
    would break step, stop dead and stare for a while.

    Serious chess people tend to run in "higher" circles,
    meaning more $$$. If you'd had a "beautiful" product
    they WOULD have paid for it. Lower volume but higher
    margins.

    Precisely - and for them the record and replay feature would have
    been far more interesting than the machine opponent.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Pancho on Mon Aug 7 09:49:56 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 06/08/2023 15:45, Pancho wrote:
    On 05/08/2023 22:14, Martin Gregorie wrote:
    On Sat, 5 Aug 2023 15:23:21 +0100, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:

    On Sat, 5 Aug 2023 14:36:08 +0100 Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> wrote: >>>
    I was actually surprised at how fast the new Ryzen was. Maybe it is
    time to buy a new PC.

        I haven't done that in a long time. I used to buy parts and make >>> them but these days I buy "refurbished"* ex-corporate machines which are >>> cheap and far better made than the typical consumer PC.

    * Read cleaned, OS reinstalled and stripped of asset tags.

    It may well be worth looking at getting a new PC.

    Since around 2005 my house server was a Dual Athlon PC in a noname case
    and not new when I got it in 2005 and has had at least two new disks (bog
    standard WD 500MB blue) since then.

    I think it all depends, what you want. If you don't already have a PC
    less than 10 years old, then second-hand deals are good.

    In most respects I found a 10-year-old 2500K, OK to use. Up until a
    couple of years ago it was my desktop, then its graphics card broke, and
    it got relegated to HTPC, it wasn't so good at that. I've just replaced
    it with an Orange Pi 5, with caveats, the Orange Pi 5 is better as a TV computer. The Orange Pi 5 was cheap. I've also bought a couple of low
    power new NUC types for about £200, for relatives, e.g. Intel N5150,
    they are generally happy with them.

    Mainly I've been interested in small low wattage PCs, it is only
    recently that they have been quicker than my old 2500K. The new big
    desktops were quick, but not that much quicker, maybe twice as fast, for
    a reasonable price. Now, the Ryzen 5 7600 is looking to be 3-4 times as
    fast, single thread, more than 3-4 multi thread. Which might be
    noticeable, for me, I don't know. Without having one, it is hard to know.

    Its been a few years now, since I felt my machines were too slow for the
    job they were doing.

    I accept that people doing video editing or shooting up 3D aliens in
    unlikely scenarios may need more, but I don't.

    I am more replacing now to lower power consumption, although even that
    is not 100% wasted as the computers heat this room in winter.

    --
    You can get much farther with a kind word and a gun than you can with a
    kind word alone.

    Al Capone

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Mon Aug 7 09:46:40 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 06/08/2023 14:41, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Sun, 6 Aug 2023 10:34:22 +0100
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    The task is huge but it is not too huge - it can be expected to
    take decades and it is already happening as fast as production can go. When flow battery electrode assemblies hit the DIY market things will really
    be moving. I expect that within a decade followed by IBLCs getting hard to obtain.

    I wish I shared your optimism.

    Remember I ran the accounts as well as the technical sections of my
    companies.
    There is not enough space for renewable ebergy AND humans AND farming
    AND the as yet to be identified storage. The whole heath robinsn
    arrangement would uterly destroy the environment, bankrupt the nations attempting it and still not create enough energy to replace itself in
    twenty years.
    Today we burn fossil to build renewables. That will not always be the case. Simply put the implementation cost and the EROEI (enetrgy return over
    energy invested) is so poor for renewables that it only takes one nation
    to say 'sod this for a game of soldiers' and go 100% nuclear, and that
    nation will rule the renewable peasants in their grass shacks forever.

    I assumed that was Russia's plan, until the moron invaded Ukraine. Fund
    the anti nuclear and anti-fracking and anti oil brigades, then sell
    Germany gas on the QT to run the country off while the windmills
    convinced people they were actually green, and then absorb or control a Germany utterly dependent on Russian gas. And thereby essentially
    control the EU.

    Nope. Despite the costs, nuclear is sadly the only economically viable
    option if we want to keep civilisation, which it seems many peole do not,

    And its a durn sight easier to cost reduce a technology whose main cost
    in in *bureaucracy*, than it is to build a safe 200GWh storage system
    that wont go off with the force of an atomic bomb if someone drops a
    wrench across the terminals...

    And 200GWh is only just enough to keep the UK say, going for about 2
    sunless flat calm winters days maybe less, if we have abandoned all
    fossil duel and are 100% electric .

    It is equivalent in destructive power to 172 kilotons of TNT or about
    ten Hiroshima bombs worth.

    And that is just the UK.


    I'd rather live on the ROOF of a nuclear power station than within ten
    miles of THAT.

    No 'flow battery' even could come close to that sort of storage. That is serious water up a hill. That is all that even has the potential, if you
    have the water and the hill.

    The only other possible storage is heat banks of molten salt, but unless
    you actually drive them from a nuclear reactor, (see the Natrium
    concept) they are woefully inefficient, and if you have the reactors,
    you don't really need much storage.

    Nope. Its all green people's wet dreams. A marvellous way to separate
    the plebs from their cash and put it in the trousers of the virtue
    signalling renewable energy companies, and leave nothing left to invest
    in something that *actually works*.

    Remember that the batteries on the grid are not there to replace the
    energy of the stores of coal, oil ,gas or uranium that power the power stations, they are there to simply replace the energy of the spinning
    mass of all those alternators, that stabilise the grid in the 0-100
    second range, giving time to get the pumped storage wound up before the
    gas turbines can kick in.

    Because if they don't, and the frequency falls, the renewable energy disconnects itself and you get a grid scale blackout.


    --
    WOKE is an acronym... Without Originality, Knowledge or Education.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to All on Mon Aug 7 10:35:06 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 07/08/2023 05:21, 23k.304 wrote:
    Getting an EXACT voltage output from a little "hummer" supply
      like that might be tricky. As said, it depends on what you're doing.

      Oh, if you're powering direct from the mains, why CARE what
      the quiescent current is ? That's more for battery/solar apps.
      You could use a vacuum-tube based power supply  😄

    There are two halves to what I am building. A mains powered server in a
    box controlling stuff and accepting inputs from remote sensors and
    running a web server as a user interface for user level information and control, and the sensors themselves which may, and in one case must be,
    battery powered. Namely thermometers, whose response time will be in
    tens of minutes at best, and a (battery powered) oil level sensor whose response can be in an hour or two.

    So the mains powered server, already has relays switching mains in it,
    and I have bought a custom 'block' switched mode PSU that should run it
    ok. The Pi Zero W has its own SMPS internally to generate the 3V3 and
    1V8 rails it needs, and will allegedly run from 1.8V to 5.5V input wise,
    and the PICO has similar, although it seems to only need 3V3.

    So its (the PICO) fairly ideal for battery power, as long as it spends
    plenty of time *off*...

    The idea is the thermometers won't *need* batteries if there is a handy
    USB power source available, but the oil sensor is not so lucky. It must
    be battery powered.



    --
    No Apple devices were knowingly used in the preparation of this post.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Charlie Gibbs on Mon Aug 7 10:20:26 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 07/08/2023 02:55, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
    What's really going to destroy us is the belief by many - especially
    our ruling classes - that our population can and must increase
    indefinitely. People cannot allow themselves to realize that there
    are hard limits - for example, the entire planet being converted into
    people, crawling over each other like a swarm of bees. If our population continues to double every 40 years, we'll reach that point in 1800 years.
    A more realistic limit - one person for every square meter of dry land
    on the planet - will be reached in only 600 years. But anyone with any
    sense will realize that the crash will happen much sooner than that.

    Cf 'Stand on Zanzibar; et al.

    There is a massive dichotomy, that the ruling elite cannot bridge.
    On the one hand the indigenous European populations is in fact
    shrinking, because people simply don't want so many children and modern medicine ensures they don't need to have them either. On the other,
    masses of essentially less or uncivilised people are flooding in and
    breeding like rabbits, as their cultural background does not include a phenomenally low infant mortality rate, nor thin gs like old age
    pensions. A big family is a support system

    Now one view is that a falling population would bring far greater wealth
    per individual, since the GDP of a nation is not particularly linked to
    human endeavour, but more to what resources - land, sea, minerals etc -
    it has legally defensible access to. Plus in a hi tech age, the quality
    of its education to turn out not an unending stream of entitled self
    absorbed ArtStudents™ , but a smaller stream of intenbselyt well
    qualified and able people who are able to create wealth by dint of
    technical innovation, or good risk assessment in the financial areas.

    Such a society would inevitably be extremely productive high earning and individually wealth, but the GDP would not markedly increase. And that
    is the 'n' word in the woodpile, because the mechanics of the massive
    debt incurred by all the western nations is conditional for being even
    able to be *serviced*, let alone repaid, by a continuous process of
    expanding population and inflations.
    Consider the effect on house prices of a falling population. You
    wouldn't be able to give away the cheapest houses. they would remain
    empty. An asset price crash of epic proportions would set in as all the
    things that are rare by dint of having too many people wanting them
    would lose their value.

    The banks would all fail. And that is the elephant in the room, both in
    the USA and in the Eurozone, there is and has been for 20 years a
    looming debt crisis that threatens to crash the entire system of debt.

    And that is why, gentlemen, the immigrants are flooding in, to keep
    house prices up, wage prices down, and burden an even greater number of
    people with debt and erode the wealth of private capital through inflation.

    The banks lent us money, and successive governments instead of investing
    in assets - railways, nuclear power stations, ports, gas storage, grid upgrades - instead 'invested in people' which is a euphemism for
    creating a consumer boom with low personal credit rates and large
    payouts, so that they could essentially buy the votes of the less well
    heeled. And increase the number of people who are not actually creating
    wealth, but living off directly or indirectly, taxpayer funding.
    Now over 50% of GDP in this country circulates through the government in
    terms of taxes and benefits, public sector wages and contracts to privet companies that are entered into by the apparatus of state, or state
    industries. Right down to the cleaning company that cleans the council
    offices or the hospital wards...

    The problem is that a falling population makes this house of debt cards unsustainable: the western banking system would collapse. As it nearly
    did with the sub prime scandal. And with bankrupt governments, 50% of
    the workforce now loses its jobs. Social security collapses, pension
    funds crash...we would be left holding what physical assets we owned,
    and earn whatever we could barter for our skills.

    And that is why, gentlemen, the banks are running us into the ground,
    because if we drop population the whole system of debt will collapse and
    the consequences - at least to bankers - are simply unthinkable. They
    are fighting for their very existence, and they play very very dirty
    indeed, and have no moral scruples whatsoever.

    I don't have an answer, either. A collapsed economy and financial system
    or a third world level of poverty in western countries. Not much of a
    choice is it?


    --
    "The great thing about Glasgow is that if there's a nuclear attack it'll
    look exactly the same afterwards."

    Billy Connolly

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to All on Mon Aug 7 10:52:54 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 07/08/2023 06:31, 23k.304 wrote:
    On 8/4/23 4:51 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 04/08/2023 06:08, 23k.304 wrote:
    On 8/3/23 2:44 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Wed, 2 Aug 2023 17:47:56 +0100) it happened The Natural >>>> Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote in
    <uae1bt$5slp$1@dont-email.me>:



        ANYway, /var/log CAN be moved to a RAMdisk if you want.
        Not 100% sure WHY you'd want to, but it CAN. If a few
        very early logs get 'lost' as you re-direct /var/log
        then that MIGHT not be all so important. If you want
        it all on RAMdisk then you don't CARE if it all
        vanishes on reboot. I very rarely look in /var/log
        anyhow so ....

    As I said, whoever you are, the less writing to an SD drive there is, >>>>> the less chance there is of file system corruption when the power
    goes out.

    To avoid restarts on power failure use a UPS (I do) or just a simple
    battery circuit
    was it not called 'battery hat' or something? with the Pi.


       I remember the "battery hat" - still sold :

       https://www.waveshare.com/li-ion-battery-hat.htm

       But MOST Pi's, because of the high power consumption,
       still run off the mains - so a UPS is probably the
       simplest option. The "battery hat" however might
       serve to deal with very short interruptions.

       However I don't think the most stress to SD cards
       is on boot - but during regular USE ... the usual
       data churning and loading system apps from the
       card. If "ping" is used, well, where does it COME
       from on a PI ? The SD card. Each application has
       to be examined to see what routines are used and
       put them into a RAMdisk or whatever. Remember,
       even reading an SD card involves re-writing the
       thing, that's how the tech works.


    I am not sure it actually does. If you turn off 'last read' with
    'noatime'
    Which you surely would if you cared enough

      A right move ... but doesn't entirely solve the
      SD-wear problem. System apps you're using a lot
      really MUST be moved to RAMdisk. A certain amount
      of the OS does wind up on its own RAMdisk, but
      it might not be what YOU are using a lot.


    No system apps are in use in the sense that they are being loaded from disk.

    The are all memory resident and thats that.

    Three daemons, maybe four

    Apache web server plus sensor watchdog that wakes up every second, looks
    at the state of various RAMDISK based files and reads the SD based
    config files, probably from disk cache 99.99% of the time, and turns
    stuff on and off, plus an xinetd daemon that accepts input from remote thermometers and writes to ram disk and possibly a similar one for the
    oil sensor.

    And that's it.

    I guess the usual cron jobs will run, vut thst so on any Pi running Raspios.


      Hey, Raspbian might be 2gb image on the SD card
      but yer Pi, depending on model, might not have
      much more RAM (or even LESS if it's a Pi-1/2).
      As such the WHOLE OS cannot be put into RAM.
      All the parts that can't, well, they get read
      over and over from the SD.

    No, they don't. Because huge swathes of the disk image contain programs
    that are *never run at all*. My pi came with for example, gcc and
    friends. Thousands of
    development header files and libraries that will never be invoked once
    the code is stable. Once running my server is currently only using 60MB
    of RAM, with 200+MB in use as disk cache. and over 100MB that isn't used
    at all!

    I am running apparently 110 separate processes. But these are all kernel processes for the most part, and use very little RAM or CPU. The load
    average is simply 'nothing' . In short this little Zero is completely overspecified for the job it does. It wont wear the card out.


    Nothing that is in the disk cache need ever be read from the disk. And
    indeed if it is written to, the OS will only periodically flush its
    buffers. Those disk caches ARE an effective ram disk protecting the SD
    card from many reads and writes.
    And doesn't mind being read, it's writes that screw it, anyway.


    --
    Climate is what you expect but weather is what you get.
    Mark Twain

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Pancho@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Mon Aug 7 11:41:24 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 07/08/2023 09:49, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 06/08/2023 15:45, Pancho wrote:
    On 05/08/2023 22:14, Martin Gregorie wrote:
    On Sat, 5 Aug 2023 15:23:21 +0100, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:

    On Sat, 5 Aug 2023 14:36:08 +0100 Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me>
    wrote:

    I was actually surprised at how fast the new Ryzen was. Maybe it is
    time to buy a new PC.

        I haven't done that in a long time. I used to buy parts and make >>>> them but these days I buy "refurbished"* ex-corporate machines which
    are
    cheap and far better made than the typical consumer PC.

    * Read cleaned, OS reinstalled and stripped of asset tags.

    It may well be worth looking at getting a new PC.

    Since around 2005 my house server was a Dual Athlon PC in a noname case
    and not new when I got it in 2005 and has had at least two new disks
    (bog
    standard WD 500MB blue) since then.

    I think it all depends, what you want. If you don't already have a PC
    less than 10 years old, then second-hand deals are good.

    In most respects I found a 10-year-old 2500K, OK to use. Up until a
    couple of years ago it was my desktop, then its graphics card broke,
    and it got relegated to HTPC, it wasn't so good at that. I've just
    replaced it with an Orange Pi 5, with caveats, the Orange Pi 5 is
    better as a TV computer. The Orange Pi 5 was cheap. I've also bought a
    couple of low power new NUC types for about £200, for relatives, e.g.
    Intel N5150, they are generally happy with them.

    Mainly I've been interested in small low wattage PCs, it is only
    recently that they have been quicker than my old 2500K. The new big
    desktops were quick, but not that much quicker, maybe twice as fast,
    for a reasonable price. Now, the Ryzen 5 7600 is looking to be 3-4
    times as fast, single thread, more than 3-4 multi thread. Which might
    be noticeable, for me, I don't know. Without having one, it is hard to
    know.

    Its been a few years now, since I felt my machines were too slow for the
    job they were doing.

    I accept that people doing video editing or shooting up 3D aliens in
    unlikely scenarios may need more, but I don't.

    I am more replacing now to lower power consumption, although even that
    is not 100% wasted as the computers heat this room in winter.


    It was my old monitor that heated the room, it used vastly more power
    than even my old computers. I did mean to buy a new TV, this summer, but haven't, so the old one will heat me another winter.

    If you live alone in a big house, buy a fleece onesie.

    <https://www.amazon.co.uk/Keanu-KM217-C-ML-Snuggle-Fleece-Charcoal/dp/B09L7CPMQ2>

    They are stunningly warm, and comfortable.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Pancho@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Mon Aug 7 11:29:10 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 07/08/2023 09:46, The Natural Philosopher wrote:


    Remember I ran the accounts as well as the technical sections of my companies.

    Didn't we all? At least, those of us who had companies.

    There is not enough space for renewable ebergy AND humans AND farming
    AND the as yet to be identified storage.

    The North Sea gives enough room for the needs of the UK.

    It might be uneconomic, it might not, but that space could provide
    enough power for the UK.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Mon Aug 7 11:49:08 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On Mon, 7 Aug 2023 09:46:40 +0100
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 06/08/2023 14:41, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Sun, 6 Aug 2023 10:34:22 +0100
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    The task is huge but it is not too huge - it can be expected to
    take decades and it is already happening as fast as production can go.
    When flow battery electrode assemblies hit the DIY market things will really be moving. I expect that within a decade followed by IBLCs
    getting hard to obtain.

    I wish I shared your optimism.

    You have it backwards - I wish I shared *your* optimism.

    You see you're right widespread adoption of nuclear power would
    make things far easier if it was done well and in a timely fashion.

    My problem is that I don't see any chance of the NIMBY brigade
    being bypassed until long after it is far too late to build more than a tiny fraction of the necessary power stations.

    Then of course it will be fast track, crash priority get them built
    as fast as possible, oh please keep the costs down the budget is tight this year you know there's an election coming up. Why not buy a load of those new dirt cheap plants from <insert fourth world country here> that have just
    hit the market.

    What could possibly go wrong ?

    Remember I ran the accounts as well as the technical sections of my companies.

    I am reminded of an old story about army quartermasters. When you
    walk into the quartermasters office with a request he opens a thick book of regulations. One sort of quartermaster is looking for the rule that says
    you can't have it the other is looking for the way through the maze of
    rules that lets you have it.

    Guess which one has the easier job of searching. I've been watching this for a long time too - until fairly recently it was not looking good at all. Cheap reliable flow batteries really do change the picture of what is possible - you should research the technology, it's pretty cool stuff.

    Phasing out oil etc. with what's available off the shelf today is certainly possible but feasibility is dubious the numbers are huge and the logistics daunting. A decade ago it was almost certainly not possible and certainly not even remotely feasible. This is the right direction.

    Necessity is the mother of invention - and this is one mother of a necessity. When you were calculating the available space for everything did
    you consider off shore floating solar power stations covering large areas
    of open ocean ?

    It can only get easier, can it get easy enough soon enough ? Who
    knows but I'm certain nuclear won't be given the chance until far too late
    and I really don't like the results of civil engineering being done far too quickly. A few bridges needing bracing and crumbling buildings getting condemned is one thing ...

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Jan Panteltje@3:770/3 to Philosopher on Mon Aug 7 11:55:12 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On a sunny day (Mon, 7 Aug 2023 09:46:40 +0100) it happened The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote in <uaqb1h$2ppb9$1@dont-email.me>:

    On 06/08/2023 14:41, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Sun, 6 Aug 2023 10:34:22 +0100
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    The task is huge but it is not too huge - it can be expected to
    take decades and it is already happening as fast as production can go. When >> flow battery electrode assemblies hit the DIY market things will really
    be moving. I expect that within a decade followed by IBLCs getting hard to >> obtain.

    I wish I shared your optimism.

    Remember I ran the accounts as well as the technical sections of my >companies.
    There is not enough space for renewable ebergy AND humans AND farming
    AND the as yet to be identified storage. The whole heath robinsn
    arrangement would uterly destroy the environment, bankrupt the nations >attempting it and still not create enough energy to replace itself in
    twenty years.
    Today we burn fossil to build renewables. That will not always be the case. >Simply put the implementation cost and the EROEI (enetrgy return over
    energy invested) is so poor for renewables that it only takes one nation
    to say 'sod this for a game of soldiers' and go 100% nuclear, and that
    nation will rule the renewable peasants in their grass shacks forever.

    I assumed that was Russia's plan, until the moron invaded Ukraine. Fund
    the anti nuclear and anti-fracking and anti oil brigades, then sell
    Germany gas on the QT to run the country off while the windmills
    convinced people they were actually green, and then absorb or control a >Germany utterly dependent on Russian gas. And thereby essentially
    control the EU.

    Na, its the other way around, just like that other demon-crate Bil Clignon
    the Biden creep makes war in Europe so the taxpayer pays for the US military Industrial crap.
    And Europe for the F35 crap they now buy to fill in the 'donated' arms to boocrain
    US blowing up Northstream 2 to they can sell their own inferior gas
    and every European citizen pays more for energy .
    It is better to peacefully live together with Russia (and China, US is pestering China too,
    even does not allow Dutch ASML to sell high quality chip making equipment to China)
    We need to get rid in the EU of the US Mafia, make peace with Russia.
    Bit of luck US will self-destruct or, once the other nations figure out its mostly
    a hot air military it has (like Reagan's star wars was) it will be nuked into oblivion
    or simple climate change will burn it to the ground...
    Its turning black, average IQ is dropping, they mostly make crap these days.
    US so afraid of competition, using Mafia like methods to stop it.
    No Empire Has Lasted Yet in history, US is way over the hill.
    Likely Texas will soon leave that Union... the others will follow.
    hehe
    :-)

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  • From Jan Panteltje@3:770/3 to 23k304@bfxw9.net on Mon Aug 7 11:33:40 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On a sunny day (Mon, 7 Aug 2023 01:31:26 -0400) it happened "23k.304" <23k304@bfxw9.net> wrote in <EuCdnXh3WrgjHE35nZ2dnZfqnPidnZ2d@earthlink.com>:

    The compiler-writers have become VERY VERY good.
    Stuff I commonly wrote in ASM on u-controllers
    is actually smaller/faster now using 'C'. That's
    just IMPRESSIVE.

    It may be true for ARM, at least for me, on Raspberry as I have no real experience writing ARM ASM.
    But a simple example for data storage on SDcard (2 GB SDcard in this case) is for example here:
    https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/quadcopter/index.html
    scroll down to flywayspoints.tgz

    If you have only one set of data, you do not need a filesystem on the SDcard.
    I use a Microchip PIC 18F14K22 with code in its FLASH memory
    that reads the SDcard one sector at the time.
    Example:
    You have blocks of data, one per second (for example) with GPS position, altitude, heading, etc, that easily fits in 512 bytes.
    So one sector per data record,
    Cards come new with some Microsoft filesystem, no need for it.
    PIC is programmed in asm, I used Philips C routines to write to a SDcard sector that I translated into PIC asm.

    So that beats any 'operating system' in code size and any hardware it runs on in power consumption
    and actually if you have some experience with PIC asm in programming time.
    An no more silly libraries that change every new release causing things to no longer work.



    I occasionally looked at .a files on *86, and they wrote better
    assembler than I could.

    The old 'Dilbert' narrow-tie people WERE damned good.
    Modern hardware with a lot more resources kind of
    made them obsolete - any 10-year-old could write
    adequate code then.

    So much so that I gave up looking.

    I went to 'C' and PASCAL early on. ASM became only
    for a handful of very weird things neither did well
    at the time.

    Yes Pascal, I did some uni stuff in that, anybody still using it?
    Maybe python will go the same way.

    This thing uses the same way to write to SDcard one record to one sector per time interval:
    https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/pic/gm_pic2/
    both the C code to read such card and the PIC asm can be downloaded from that site.

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Pancho on Mon Aug 7 13:44:52 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 07/08/2023 11:29, Pancho wrote:
    On 07/08/2023 09:46, The Natural Philosopher wrote:


    Remember I ran the accounts as well as the technical sections of my
    companies.

    Didn't we all? At least, those of us who had companies.

    There is not enough space for renewable ebergy AND humans AND farming
    AND the as yet to be identified storage.

    The North Sea gives enough room for the needs of the UK.


    Not really. the Easterly turbines would all be in the wake of the
    westerly ones. And the UK doesn't ow all of the north sea. And other
    people want toiuse it to

    It might be uneconomic, it might not, but that space could provide
    enough power for the UK.

    Only when the wind was blowing. In times of low wind the whole continent
    of Europe wouldnt provide enough.


    --
    In a Time of Universal Deceit, Telling the Truth Is a Revolutionary Act.

    - George Orwell

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Jan Panteltje on Mon Aug 7 14:49:46 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 07/08/2023 12:55, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    It is better to peacefully live together with Russia

    ROFLMAO.

    Its better to run the world on fairy farts and unicorn horns, but it
    ain't happening any time soon.

    The only way to live peacefully with Russia is to let Russia run your
    country and rip off everything you own after they have destroyed your
    cities raped the women and killed all the men.

    They then move Russians in and claim 'it wants to be part of Russia'.

    I am profoundly grateful that the USA is making some cash out of this,
    as much as I am profoundly grateful that its not Britain this time
    standing alone, but Ukraine, with massive NATO support, against a force
    of what is essentially identical to, in aims and modus operandi, Germany
    in 1940.

    Let's face it NATO weaponry was for use against Russia and that's what
    its getting used for, and 90% of what is being supplied is obsolescent warehouse materiel. Due for replacement anyway. It's not costing a
    penny. It was all written off years ago.

    We are getting a massive exercise in understanding the nature of what
    would happen if China flexed its muscles and how good the kit is. And a
    bunch of thugs with far too much money and no morals at all are getting
    the crap beaten out of them by someone else.

    And the lie that Germany is a 'renewable energy' country has been blown completely apart.


    What's not to like?

    Well the death and destruction of Ukraine, and the poor Russian Private Conscriptovich who is only there to stop a bullet for Putin.

    But the alternative is worse, and Poland, Latvia, Lithuania,Estonia,
    Finland, Sweden all know it, and that's why they are willingly throwing everything they have at ait as are we, in Britain. They know what its
    like to be 'part of Russia' they have the mass graves to prove it, and
    they don't want to go back there.



    --
    Microsoft : the best reason to go to Linux that ever existed.

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Mon Aug 7 14:33:26 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 07/08/2023 11:49, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Mon, 7 Aug 2023 09:46:40 +0100
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 06/08/2023 14:41, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Sun, 6 Aug 2023 10:34:22 +0100
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    The task is huge but it is not too huge - it can be expected to
    take decades and it is already happening as fast as production can go.
    When flow battery electrode assemblies hit the DIY market things will
    really be moving. I expect that within a decade followed by IBLCs
    getting hard to obtain.

    I wish I shared your optimism.

    You have it backwards - I wish I shared *your* optimism.

    You see you're right widespread adoption of nuclear power would
    make things far easier if it was done well and in a timely fashion.

    Agreed

    My problem is that I don't see any chance of the NIMBY brigade
    being bypassed until long after it is far too late to build more than a tiny fraction of the necessary power stations.


    If they are cold broke and hungry, and someone offers them cut price electricity and a well paid job in exchange for a nuke down the road,
    they rapidly change their minds. That's how France did it

    Then of course it will be fast track, crash priority get them built
    as fast as possible, oh please keep the costs down the budget is tight this year you know there's an election coming up. Why not buy a load of those new dirt cheap plants from <insert fourth world country here> that have just
    hit the market.

    What could possibly go wrong ?
    Almost nothing. Even the worst ever reactor built - the Chernobyl style,
    could if managed by competent staff produce safe electriity for years if
    you didnt fuck with it, as the chernobyl staff did.
    #
    The last reactor at chernobly closed down decades after the accident.
    people still worked there. People didn't die working there.

    "The three other reactors remained operational post-accident maintaining
    a capacity factor between 60 and 70%. In total, units 1 and 3 had
    supplied 98 terawatt-hours of electricity each, with unit 2 slightly
    behind at 75 TWh. In 1991, unit 2 was placed into a permanent shutdown
    state by the plant's operator due to complications resulting from a
    turbine fire. This was followed by unit 1 in 1996 and unit 3 in 2000.
    Their closures were *largely attributed to foreign pressures*.


    Remember I ran the accounts as well as the technical sections of my
    companies.

    I am reminded of an old story about army quartermasters. When you
    walk into the quartermasters office with a request he opens a thick book of regulations. One sort of quartermaster is looking for the rule that says
    you can't have it the other is looking for the way through the maze of
    rules that lets you have it.

    Guess which one has the easier job of searching. I've been watching this for a long time too - until fairly recently it was not looking good at all. Cheap reliable flow batteries really do change the picture of what is possible - you should research the technology, it's pretty cool stuff.


    No they dont. They have neither the capacity nor the discharge rate
    We need nuclear weapon sized storage. No chemical battery has that. We
    would be better of sythnesising coal diesel or gas and burnbing that.
    But its too inefficient



    Phasing out oil etc. with what's available off the shelf today is certainly possible but feasibility is dubious the numbers are huge and the logistics daunting. A decade ago it was almost certainly not possible and certainly not even remotely feasible. This is the right direction.

    Its not possible on a grid scale at any sort of sustainable cost. The
    EROEI of the whole network is just too low. And the technology doesn't
    exist, despite your optimism. We would all love to be powered bu a few
    offshore windmills and a rooftop solar panel at one tenth the price we
    pat now, but it aint gonna happen.
    The only nations who have achieved both low emissions from power
    generation and low energy cost per unit are restricted to those with
    extensive hydroelectricity and/or nuclear power. France.
    Switzerland.Sweden. New Zealand. Norway.


    The graph of electricity cost to percentage of (intermittent)
    renewables is a nice exponential curve.

    German which leads the windmill farce, burns more fossil fuel per
    country, per capita, and per megawatt hour than anyone else in Europe.
    And it cots three times as much as France.

    Necessity is the mother of invention - and this is one mother of a necessity. When you were calculating the available space for everything did you consider off shore floating solar power stations covering large areas
    of open ocean ?

    Of course. The problem is intermittency. You need either massive
    storage or a huge excess of capacity. Both escalate the costs way
    beyond the most expensive nuclear reactor, both massively increase
    negative environmental impact, and massive storage introduces a huge
    safety hazard - far greater than a nuclear power station.

    There is a reason why we like coal and uranium, In large piles neither
    go bang.


    It can only get easier, can it get easy enough soon enough ? Who
    knows but I'm certain nuclear won't be given the chance until far too late and I really don't like the results of civil engineering being done far too quickly. A few bridges needing bracing and crumbling buildings getting condemned is one thing ...


    Every single manufacturer in the world is flogging their new small
    modular reactor designs. Promising build times of sub 5 years sign to
    grid, and a simple regulatory tick after completion on type approved
    factory built reactors of up to 450MW, that being the practical limit
    fora reactor that will be shipped in in a low loader and wont need
    cooling pumps after a SCRAM.

    Given adequate access to coolant, you could pop one of those in a medium
    sized towns retail park and save on large grid connections from the
    North sea.

    The Natrium concept uses molten salt as a primary working fluid, and
    intends to store that in a heat bank to allow peak power of far more
    than the reactors continuous power. Smart idea.

    It's all there waiting until - as Churchill once remarked, of the
    Americans doing the Right Thing - 'every other possible alternative has
    been exhausted'...

    ...Basically this stuff will come on stream towards 2030. It should if encouraged rather than obstructed by regulation, be economic at around
    10c/kWh or even less. compared with 15c-40c for renewables BEFORE you
    add in the cost of massive grid extensions and/or storage and backup.


    Once it does of course you can kiss renewables goodbye. Reliable zero
    carbon 24x7 electricity on localised grids at one third the price of renewables? A dream for the population, a nightmare for the faux greens
    who have trillions riding on windmills, flow batteries , fuel cells, the 'hydrogen economy' , heat pumps, electric cars and all the other
    ecobollox we are bombarded with.

    Remember my adage:

    "There is nothing a fleet of dispatchable nuclear power plants cannot do
    that cannot be done worse and more expensively and with higher carbon
    emissions and more adverse environmental impact than by adding
    intermittent renewable energy."


    Let it fight its corner in a free unsubsidised market, to see if any of
    it actually works cost effectively,.

    Nuclear power is, like democracy, "the worst form of power generation,
    except for all the others".

    I am sure people like you will persist with the renewable chimera until
    someone in a nuclear power plant puts you out of a job.

    Dont say I didn't warn you.

    One of the most important things an engineering degree taught me is that
    whilst it take a lot of calculations and hands on experimentations to
    get something to work, it only takes about a day and the back of an
    envelope with a slide rule to determine what simply *won't* work. The
    reason is simple. To make something work, every problem has to be
    soluble. To determine something cannot work merely requires a *single*
    problem to be *insoluble*. Renewable energy has four. Power density, intermittency, no stabilisation and EROEI. These cannot be solved, they
    can only be ameliorated by bolting on yet more expensive potentially
    dangerous and environmentally unpleasant technology. All of which takes
    energy to build and costs serious money

    Nuclear has only one currently serious problem. Political will.

    No one in the opinion polls gives a tuppeny fuck about climate change
    anymore, but they care about the cost of energy.

    Nuclear power finesses both. Its zero carbon and its cheaper than
    renewables.
    Politicians simply have to accept that the fat green envelopes will have
    to stop if they are to get re-elected. And hope that some fat uranium
    coloured ones replace them.


    --
    Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as
    foolish, and by the rulers as useful.

    (Seneca the Younger, 65 AD)

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Jan Panteltje on Mon Aug 7 14:55:18 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 07/08/2023 12:55, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    No Empire Has Lasted Yet in history, US is way over the hill.
    Likely Texas will soon leave that Union... the others will follow.
    Yes, these 19th century Empires are a bit passé..the end of Russian federation, the European Union, the United states - all are possible and
    more, or less likely as time moves on.

    In an unlikely turn of phrase, in rapidly changing world contexts, they
    are simply too big to survive.

    What suits downtown New York does not suit wilderness Utah. And vice versa.

    federalisation at least and possible independence, whilst maintaining
    overall ties under some NATO and Interpol style pan national
    organisations would seem to be the way forward


    --
    “It is hard to imagine a more stupid decision or more dangerous way of
    making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people
    who pay no price for being wrong.”

    Thomas Sowell

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From TimS@3:770/3 to tnp@invalid.invalid on Mon Aug 7 14:54:14 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 07 Aug 2023 at 14:33:26 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 07/08/2023 11:49, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:

    What could possibly go wrong ?
    Almost nothing. Even the worst ever reactor built - the Chernobyl style, could if managed by competent staff produce safe electriity for years if
    you didnt fuck with it, as the chernobyl staff did.

    And they had to work quite hard to make it go pop. They disconnected the computers and all the safety interlocks.

    Guess which one has the easier job of searching. I've been watching
    this for a long time too - until fairly recently it was not looking good at >> all. Cheap reliable flow batteries really do change the picture of what is >> possible - you should research the technology, it's pretty cool stuff.

    No they dont. They have neither the capacity nor the discharge rate
    We need nuclear weapon sized storage. No chemical battery has that. We
    would be better of sythnesising coal diesel or gas and burnbing that.
    But its too inefficient

    If you take that battery that Musk (IIRC) installed in South Australia on
    their grid, and scale it up so it can power the grid for a week (for the periods in winter of 5 to 10 days when wind and solar produce nothing), it
    will set you back about £1,000,000,000,000 and no pence. And require a chunk of land. Also, I'd hate to be anywhere near it if it caught fire.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From TimS@3:770/3 to tnp@invalid.invalid on Mon Aug 7 15:04:04 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 07 Aug 2023 at 14:55:19 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 07/08/2023 12:55, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    No Empire Has Lasted Yet in history, US is way over the hill.
    Likely Texas will soon leave that Union... the others will follow.
    Yes, these 19th century Empires are a bit passé..the end of Russian federation, the European Union, the United states - all are possible and more, or less likely as time moves on.

    In an unlikely turn of phrase, in rapidly changing world contexts, they
    are simply too big to survive.

    What suits downtown New York does not suit wilderness Utah. And vice versa.

    federalisation at least and possible independence, whilst maintaining
    overall ties under some NATO and Interpol style pan national
    organisations would seem to be the way forward

    And we need to include India and China in that, too. About 100 million is the max size a country should be.

    --
    Tim

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  • From TimS@3:770/3 to Jan Panteltje on Mon Aug 7 15:02:20 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 07 Aug 2023 at 12:55:12 BST, "Jan Panteltje" <alien@comet.invalid> wrote:

    t is better to peacefully live together with Russia (and China, US is pestering China too,
    even does not allow Dutch ASML to sell high quality chip making equipment to China)
    We need to get rid in the EU of the US Mafia, make peace with Russia.

    You appear to be unaware that although you are not interested in war, war is very interested in you.

    It takes two sides to make peace, and only one side is needed to make war. As Europe saw in 1938-1939-1940. And is now seeing again in the shape of Putin. Chamberlain tried to make peace with Adolf and all he got was dismemberment of Czechoslovakia and invasion of Poland.

    Then there were the naive kiddies in the US who said that there wouldn't be another war because they wouldn't turn up. They didn't realise that you don't have to turn up, as Europe discovered in those years, and the Jews even more so.

    --
    Tim

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  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Mon Aug 7 15:31:18 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On Mon, 7 Aug 2023 14:33:26 +0100
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    No they dont. They have neither the capacity nor the discharge rate
    We need nuclear weapon sized storage.

    When you have distributed generation and distributed usage then
    using distributed storage seems rather obvious. A site drawing a megawatt
    with ten day autonomy at 50Wh/l would need 5000 cubic meters of tanks
    that's the lowest energy density electrolyte in use commercially at grid
    scale today and about a quarter of that with the highest energy density competitor.

    Possible but unlikely to be feasible - that's where we stand today.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to TimS on Mon Aug 7 16:19:04 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 07/08/2023 15:54, TimS wrote:
    On 07 Aug 2023 at 14:33:26 BST, "The Natural Philosopher" <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 07/08/2023 11:49, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:

    What could possibly go wrong ?
    Almost nothing. Even the worst ever reactor built - the Chernobyl style,
    could if managed by competent staff produce safe electriity for years if
    you didnt fuck with it, as the chernobyl staff did.

    And they had to work quite hard to make it go pop. They disconnected the computers and all the safety interlocks.

    Guess which one has the easier job of searching. I've been watching >>> this for a long time too - until fairly recently it was not looking good at >>> all. Cheap reliable flow batteries really do change the picture of what is >>> possible - you should research the technology, it's pretty cool stuff.

    No they dont. They have neither the capacity nor the discharge rate
    We need nuclear weapon sized storage. No chemical battery has that. We
    would be better of sythnesising coal diesel or gas and burnbing that.
    But its too inefficient

    If you take that battery that Musk (IIRC) installed in South Australia on their grid, and scale it up so it can power the grid for a week (for the periods in winter of 5 to 10 days when wind and solar produce nothing), it will set you back about £1,000,000,000,000 and no pence. And require a chunk of land. Also, I'd hate to be anywhere near it if it caught fire.

    And apart from there not being enough lithium in te world to make it,
    the consequences of it shorting out are simply inconceivable.

    It boils down to a simple homily: ArtStudents™ want to make the world
    out of things that ought to exist... Engineers actually build it out of
    things that do exist.

    People who try to change the world to how (they think) it ought to be,
    cause immense damage - far more than the people who actually change it
    as it is.

    --
    I would rather have questions that cannot be answered...
    ...than to have answers that cannot be questioned

    Richard Feynman

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Jan Panteltje on Mon Aug 7 18:01:48 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 07/08/2023 16:43, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Mon, 7 Aug 2023 14:49:46 +0100) it happened The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote in <uaqspr$2skqd$1@dont-email.me>:

    On 07/08/2023 12:55, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    It is better to peacefully live together with Russia

    ROFLMAO.
    \

    I do seem to remember that it was Russia that freed much of the European continent from the nazis in WW2

    No, its was the Russians who occupied the countries that Germany had
    overrun, and committed almost identical atrocities to them.
    They weren't freed, they just had a different slavemaster.


    Its better to run the world on fairy farts and unicorn horns, but it
    ain't happening any time soon.

    It will always be one ant heap against the other, it would only change if we (humming beans)
    faced for example a common enemy, say for example an invader from space.

    Correct. Wars started when we stopped wandering around an hunting and gathering, and started collecting food animals into enclosures.
    It was always going to be a tough choice between collecting your own
    animals and fencing them in, which is hard work, or simply taking over someone's place where the hard work was already done, killing the owner
    and his sons and having fun with the daughters.

    Its all perfectly rational cost benefit analysis. And the above is a
    pretty accurate desrciption of Russian behaviour in Ukraine, by all
    accounts.



    The only way to live peacefully with Russia is to let Russia run your
    country and rip off everything you own after they have destroyed your
    cities raped the women and killed all the men.

    Not so, using Russian gas was OK, benefitted both sides.
    And you don't think that gas came at a price, when the *whole* of the
    ruling party in Germany had *all* been to Moscow at the Kremlins
    expense, with all 'entertainments' laid on and a hidden camera in every
    room?

    And its a toss up as to whether more Republicans or more democrats are
    in the pay of, or being blackmailed by the FSB., Or how many
    organisations like Greenpeace, FOE, Black Lives Matter or any of the
    rest of them are not indirectly funded and controlled by Russia? The
    Kremlin has global aspirations and it was doing famously until it
    started an actual hot war. Huge mistake. It had already destroyed most
    of the West through culturual Marxism, as some people call it.


    CIA has as mission to put petrol on any fire they can find to get the war machine going so their bosses
    can sell more weapons.
    We, in Europe, can make much better weapons than for example that F35 crap, UK had some nice VTOL fighters.
    But Boris was an US clown who just separated UK from Europe hurting everybody in the UK.


    You have no clue about what you are talking.
    Boris didnt do anything except ride a political movemenjt for his own
    career. And you cant separate the UK from Europe, we are patrt of Euripe
    and we are Europeans.
    What happened is that after repeatedly asking the European Union to be
    sensible and stop taking bribes, publish their accounts and gernerallly
    start behaving like a adult and responsible government and not a Mafia,
    the people of the UK finally got so pissed off with them they they gave
    them the finger and left.
    It was never about leaving Europe - that is the canard the EU made up,
    It was always about leaving the oppressive, utterly corrupt
    antidemocratic and incompetent European Union.
    And the Union has been trying to destroy Britain just like Russia is
    trying to destroy Ukraine, for having the audacity to tell them,
    politely to fuck off...


    They then move Russians in and claim 'it wants to be part of Russia'.

    I am profoundly grateful that the USA is making some cash out of this,
    as much as I am profoundly grateful that its not Britain this time
    standing alone,

    I worked for Tek when the Iraq war started, so elated they were with the extra orders killing Iraqis provided...
    I quit. and told them why.
    Before that CIA wanted me, I told them to stuff it.


    Sure, I worked for weapons companies for a while. I felt uneasy, and
    left. They weren't saints for sure. loads of taxpayer money being
    wasted, but we did put together some pretty good tech as well, and when
    it comes to corruptions in the 'military industrial complex', there is
    only one winner, an it ain't the USA, its jolly old Putinosvky and his oligarchic Ripoffsky, Defraudski, and Gimmeayachtsky.

    Without Russia good chance you English would now be speaking German :-)

    Not at all, without UK and US help, Russia would all be speaking
    German, and would be slightly more civilised.

    Frankly the US was incredibly stupid, Churchill tried to tell them what
    was going on. But Roosevelt ignored him and cosied up instead to the
    mass murderer who had killed millions of his own people, and went on to
    kill millions more. I guess given the experience of the Native Americans
    and black slaves, the USA felt Russia was a kindred spirit in genocide.

    As it was it wasn't until what Churchill called the 'iron curtain' came
    down that the USA actually woke up to the fact that they looked set to
    lose an entire market nearly as big as the USA to Russia that they
    decided to create NATO...if Russia had trolled all the way to France -
    and the UK didnt have the power to stop them - then there would have
    been a perfect third Reich, just speaking Russian, that;'s all.

    And big enough to take on the USA, and win.

    "Between the early 1930s and his death in 1953, Joseph Stalin had more
    than a million of his own citizens executed. Millions more fell victim
    to forced labor, deportation, famine, bloody massacres, and detention
    and interrogation by Stalin’s henchmen. Stalin’s Genocides is the
    chilling story of these crimes. The book puts forward the important
    argument that brutal mass killings under Stalin in the 1930s were indeed
    acts of genocide and that the Soviet dictator himself was behind them.

    Norman Naimark, one of our most respected authorities on the Soviet era, challenges the widely held notion that Stalin’s crimes do not constitute genocide, which the United Nations defines as the premeditated killing
    of a group of people because of their race, religion, or inherent
    national qualities. In this gripping book, Naimark explains how Stalin
    became a pitiless mass killer. He looks at the most consequential and
    harrowing episodes of Stalin’s systematic destruction of his own populace—the liquidation and repression of the so-called kulaks, the Ukrainian famine, the purge of nationalities, and the Great Terror—and examines them in light of other genocides in history. In addition,
    Naimark compares Stalin’s crimes with those of the most notorious
    genocidal killer of them all, Adolf Hitler."

    Where are the real inhabitants of Crimea? They are neither Ukrainians
    nor Russians, they were Tatars. They were all deported or killed.

    "Crimean Tatars constituted the majority of Crimea's population from the
    time of ethnogenesis until the mid-19th century, and the largest ethnic population until the end of the 19th century. Russia attempted to purge
    Crimean Tatars through a combination of physical violence, intimidation,
    forced resettlement, and legalized forms of discrimination between 1783
    and 1900. Between Russia’s annexation of Crimea in 1783 and 1800,
    somewhere between 100,000 and 300,000 Crimean Tatars emigrated. However,
    this did not result in the complete eradication of Crimean Tatar
    cultural elements (at least not under the Romanov dynasty; however,
    under the Soviets, the Crimean Tatars were almost completely driven from
    the Crimean peninsula). Almost immediately after retaking of Crimea from
    Axis forces, in May 1944, the USSR State Defense Committee ordered the deportation of all of the Crimean Tatars from Crimea, including the
    families of Crimean Tatars who had served in the Soviet Army. The
    deportees were transported in trains and boxcars to Central Asia,
    primarily to Uzbekistan. The Crimean Tatars lost 18 to 46 percent of
    their population as a result of the deportations. Starting in 1967, a
    few were allowed to return and in 1989 the Supreme Soviet of the Soviet
    Union condemned the removal of Crimean Tatars from their motherland as
    inhumane and lawless, but only a tiny percent were able to return before
    the full right of return became policy in 1989. "

    Russia has form Jan. THAT is why we are funding Ukraine. Russia is not a
    nice civilised country even though it had Starbucks and McDonalds in
    Moscow, st Petersburg and Novosibirsk. It is, behind the civilised
    veneer of its urban population, desperately backward, rural, brutal and lawless, and guess who gets sent to Ukraine, Not the urban westernised hipsters. The peasants and dregs from the houses with no running water
    no electricity and no flush toilets. From Siberia. Or the Chechens.
    Chechen Lives Don't Matter. There are as many fighting FOR Ukraine as
    against them. Same with the Georgians. Everybody hates Russians. And for
    really good reasons. They are ruthless selfish brutal racists, genocidal psychopaths, supreme liars, corrupt from top to bottom, and have
    absolutely no honour whatsoever. An agreement is there to be broken when
    it suits them.

    Any decent Russian has already left.

    Do the research. Don't listen to the paid Russian trolls on the mass
    media saying how 'Russia has a point' They don't. Russian methodology is
    100% incompatible with Western civilisation and values , they know it,
    and are fighting to destroy it but we don't. We - well you - still
    think they are decent reasonable people and can be negotiated with.
    They cannot. Putin is a pure bred pyschopath and he is president because
    that is what it takes to become a president in Russia. Instead of
    merely very rich and 100% corrupt, like America. Or 100% corrupt and
    only modestly rich, like the EU.

    We cannot negotiate with him, He will break any treaty. WE cannot regime
    change him, because someone exactly the same would take his place. All
    we can do is degrade his military potential and let his federation
    collapse from within, and deal with whoever has an ounce of integrity
    that emerges out of the chaos, and if te price of that is we have to pay
    more for oil, well let them eat uranium instead, as some french tart
    once said.


    --
    Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the
    gospel of envy.

    Its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.

    Winston Churchill

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Chris Elvidge on Mon Aug 7 18:07:48 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 07/08/2023 17:01, Chris Elvidge wrote:
    On 07/08/2023 16:43, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Mon, 7 Aug 2023 14:49:46 +0100) it happened The Natural
    Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote in
    <uaqspr$2skqd$1@dont-email.me>:

    On 07/08/2023 12:55, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    It is better to peacefully live together with Russia

    ROFLMAO.
    \

    I do seem to remember that it was Russia that freed much of the
    European continent from the nazis in WW2

    Yes, but they did it with UK/US planes, tanks, ammunition
    Much of it shipped via the northern route around Norway/Finland to the detriment of many "allied" merchant seamen.

    Oh, and then they occupied what they could.
    Was Stalin worse than Hitler?
    He managed to kill a hell of a lot of people of "other" ethnicities.

    I wouldn't want to pick one out of Putin, Stalin or Hitler, or indeed
    Robert Mugabe, or Pol Pot, or Chairman Mao. Or indeed Kim Yong Um and
    his utterly murderous sister.

    It seems that the transition from barbarism towards westernised
    technology is marked by the rise of psychopathic despots who have no
    regard for their people whatsoever. And whose sole reason for being in
    power is that they somehow acquired industrialised weapons first.


    --
    “Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.”
    ― Groucho Marx

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Jan Panteltje on Mon Aug 7 18:21:34 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 07/08/2023 16:55, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (7 Aug 2023 15:02:21 GMT) it happened TimS <tim@streater.me.uk>
    wrote in <kjcfbtF5edeU1@mid.individual.net>:

    On 07 Aug 2023 at 12:55:12 BST, "Jan Panteltje" <alien@comet.invalid> wrote: >>
    t is better to peacefully live together with Russia (and China, US is
    pestering China too,
    even does not allow Dutch ASML to sell high quality chip making equipment to
    China)
    We need to get rid in the EU of the US Mafia, make peace with Russia.

    You appear to be unaware that although you are not interested in war, war is >> very interested in you.

    It takes two sides to make peace, and only one side is needed to make war.

    That is where ByeThen came in, provoking Putin.
    US needed an other war theatre after Afghanistan.


    Bollocks.
    Putin invaded because he had already annexed Crimea, and most of the
    Donbas and the West had gone on buying gas, and looked the other way.

    This time, they didn't. Much to his surprise. And his three day 'special military operation' is now a full scale European land war, in which
    either Russia or Ukraine is going to get utterly destroyed.

    Putin would not survive defeat and Europe and Ukraine and the West would
    not survive a Russian victory.

    He was stupid to risk it all on a throw of the dice, but he is an old
    man, and his all in now, and we have to match his stake, call his bluff
    and say 'Vladimir, let's see you' Well he only has a bunch of jokers, so
    he's lost, but he doesn't know that yet.
    Russia will be driven out of Ukraine and whoever is in charge will
    settle for that. There may be nothing more than ceasefire, with Russia
    still claiming it owns Ukjraine as N Korea claims it owns the south and
    is still technically at war with it.

    No one wanst to invade Russia, apart from oil and gas there is nothing
    there of any value, and taking the oil and gas without the russians
    helping wouldn't work.

    Only strategy is to smash Russia militarily, expell it from Ukraine, and
    te UN security council and build a wall with machine guns. Isolate it
    and embargo it until it learns to behave itself, which might take a
    hundred years.



    As Europe saw in 1938-1939-1940.

    Russia freed most of Europe from the nazis.
    Read up on history.


    It didn't free anybody. It enslaved most of Europe that the Nazis had
    already enslaved, No freedom was on the cards, ever.

    The reason Ukraine supported the Nazis was simply because of what Russia
    had done to them pre war.

    When you think that to an independent nation, Nazism was preferable to
    Russian communism it really makes you think...


    --
    "Socialist governments traditionally do make a financial mess. They
    always run out of other people's money. It's quite a characteristic of them"

    Margaret Thatcher

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  • From Bobbie Sellers@3:770/3 to Jan Panteltje on Mon Aug 7 13:03:36 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 8/7/23 08:55, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (7 Aug 2023 15:02:21 GMT) it happened TimS <tim@streater.me.uk>
    wrote in <kjcfbtF5edeU1@mid.individual.net>:

    On 07 Aug 2023 at 12:55:12 BST, "Jan Panteltje" <alien@comet.invalid> wrote: >>
    t is better to peacefully live together with Russia (and China, US is
    pestering China too,
    even does not allow Dutch ASML to sell high quality chip making equipment to
    China)
    We need to get rid in the EU of the US Mafia, make peace with Russia.

    You appear to be unaware that although you are not interested in war, war is >> very interested in you.

    It takes two sides to make peace, and only one side is needed to make war.

    That is where ByeThen came in, provoking Putin.
    US needed an other war theatre after Afghanistan.


    As Europe saw in 1938-1939-1940.

    Russia freed most of Europe from the nazis.
    Read up on history.

    Read up on real history, you stupid Russian propagandist.

    The Russian effort was fueled by American Lend Lease.
    The Russian troops and the Americans got along very well when they met in Germany at the End of WW II
    Most of Europe means that they established Communist Government in every nation that they "freed" from the NAZIs.

    And Putin would put his Fascist dictatorship in place of the Governments of Free Europe.
    bliss - an American who thinks Biden is not perfect but infinitely better than Trump or his American Fascist imitators.

    --
    bliss dash SF 4 ever at dslextreme dot com

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  • From TimS@3:770/3 to All on Mon Aug 7 20:24:38 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 07 Aug 2023 at 21:03:37 BST, "Bobbie Sellers" <bliss@mouse-potato.com> wrote:

    On 8/7/23 08:55, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (7 Aug 2023 15:02:21 GMT) it happened TimS <tim@streater.me.uk>
    wrote in <kjcfbtF5edeU1@mid.individual.net>:

    On 07 Aug 2023 at 12:55:12 BST, "Jan Panteltje" <alien@comet.invalid> wrote:

    t is better to peacefully live together with Russia (and China, US is
    pestering China too,
    even does not allow Dutch ASML to sell high quality chip making equipment to
    China)
    We need to get rid in the EU of the US Mafia, make peace with Russia.

    You appear to be unaware that although you are not interested in war, war is
    very interested in you.

    It takes two sides to make peace, and only one side is needed to make war. >>
    That is where ByeThen came in, provoking Putin.
    US needed an other war theatre after Afghanistan.


    As Europe saw in 1938-1939-1940.

    Russia freed most of Europe from the nazis.
    Read up on history.

    Read up on real history, you stupid Russian propagandist.

    The Russian effort was fueled by American Lend Lease.
    The Russian troops and the Americans got along very well when they met
    in Germany at the End of WW II
    Most of Europe means that they established Communist Government in
    every nation that they "freed" from the NAZIs.

    And Putin would put his Fascist dictatorship in place of the
    Governments of Free Europe.
    bliss - an American who thinks Biden is not perfect but infinitely
    better than Trump or his American Fascist imitators.

    Trump is the Idi Amin of our times.

    --
    Tim

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to TimS on Tue Aug 8 03:53:50 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 07/08/2023 21:24, TimS wrote:
    On 07 Aug 2023 at 21:03:37 BST, "Bobbie Sellers" <bliss@mouse-potato.com> wrote:

    On 8/7/23 08:55, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (7 Aug 2023 15:02:21 GMT) it happened TimS <tim@streater.me.uk>
    wrote in <kjcfbtF5edeU1@mid.individual.net>:

    On 07 Aug 2023 at 12:55:12 BST, "Jan Panteltje" <alien@comet.invalid> wrote:

    t is better to peacefully live together with Russia (and China, US is >>>>> pestering China too,
    even does not allow Dutch ASML to sell high quality chip making equipment to
    China)
    We need to get rid in the EU of the US Mafia, make peace with Russia. >>>>
    You appear to be unaware that although you are not interested in war, war is
    very interested in you.

    It takes two sides to make peace, and only one side is needed to make war. >>>
    That is where ByeThen came in, provoking Putin.
    US needed an other war theatre after Afghanistan.


    As Europe saw in 1938-1939-1940.

    Russia freed most of Europe from the nazis.
    Read up on history.

    Read up on real history, you stupid Russian propagandist.

    The Russian effort was fueled by American Lend Lease.
    The Russian troops and the Americans got along very well when they met >> in Germany at the End of WW II
    Most of Europe means that they established Communist Government in
    every nation that they "freed" from the NAZIs.

    And Putin would put his Fascist dictatorship in place of the
    Governments of Free Europe.
    bliss - an American who thinks Biden is not perfect but infinitely
    better than Trump or his American Fascist imitators.

    Trump is the Idi Amin of our times.

    No he isn't.
    He is just a bit more transparent than his democratic equivalents. He
    behaves in public like they behave in private.


    --
    "First, find out who are the people you can not criticise. They are your oppressors."
    - George Orwell

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  • From Jan Panteltje@3:770/3 to Philosopher on Tue Aug 8 04:18:16 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On a sunny day (Mon, 7 Aug 2023 18:01:48 +0100) it happened The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote in <uar81s$2ui9t$1@dont-email.me>:

    On 07/08/2023 16:43, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Mon, 7 Aug 2023 14:49:46 +0100) it happened The Natural
    Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote in <uaqspr$2skqd$1@dont-email.me>: >>
    On 07/08/2023 12:55, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    It is better to peacefully live together with Russia

    ROFLMAO.
    \

    I do seem to remember that it was Russia that freed much of the European continent from the nazis in WW2

    No, its was the Russians who occupied the countries that Germany had
    overrun, and committed almost identical atrocities to them.
    They weren't freed, they just had a different slavemaster.

    My father was in the resistance in the Netherlands in WW2.
    He also was a journalist that wrote anti-nazi stuff.
    The Germans put him in a concentration camp.
    He was freed by the brave Russians.

    Occupation clear to me these days here is more by US
    The international court of justice in the Hague must now judge on some things says US
    but was not allowed to judge on US war crimes / criminals in Iraq else 'Bush would invade ' (The Netherlands).
    Talk about Mafia, the US is one.
    Just big weapons manufacturers that even supply their own people no end and kill thousand of their
    own people just for sales.
    It designed covid but as always used the far from their bed method and did the experiments in a Chinese lab,
    the same experiments that were considered too dangerous by US DOD itself. Faulty a mass murderer as government adviser now still not sentenced to how many lifetimes or the chair.
    So damage China, the competition. backfired now did it not!
    but then they made millions on the vaccines, those kill many too.
    Criminals they, US, are.






    Its better to run the world on fairy farts and unicorn horns, but it
    ain't happening any time soon.

    It will always be one ant heap against the other, it would only change if we (humming beans)
    faced for example a common enemy, say for example an invader from space.

    Correct. Wars started when we stopped wandering around an hunting and >gathering, and started collecting food animals into enclosures.
    It was always going to be a tough choice between collecting your own
    animals and fencing them in, which is hard work, or simply taking over >someone's place where the hard work was already done, killing the owner
    and his sons and having fun with the daughters.

    Its all perfectly rational cost benefit analysis. And the above is a
    pretty accurate desrciption of Russian behaviour in Ukraine, by all >accounts.



    The only way to live peacefully with Russia is to let Russia run your
    country and rip off everything you own after they have destroyed your
    cities raped the women and killed all the men.

    Not so, using Russian gas was OK, benefitted both sides.
    And you don't think that gas came at a price, when the *whole* of the
    ruling party in Germany had *all* been to Moscow at the Kremlins
    expense, with all 'entertainments' laid on and a hidden camera in every
    room?

    And its a toss up as to whether more Republicans or more democrats are
    in the pay of, or being blackmailed by the FSB., Or how many
    organisations like Greenpeace, FOE, Black Lives Matter or any of the
    rest of them are not indirectly funded and controlled by Russia? The
    Kremlin has global aspirations and it was doing famously until it
    started an actual hot war. Huge mistake. It had already destroyed most
    of the West through culturual Marxism, as some people call it.


    CIA has as mission to put petrol on any fire they can find to get the war machine going so their bosses
    can sell more weapons.
    We, in Europe, can make much better weapons than for example that F35 crap, UK had some nice VTOL fighters.
    But Boris was an US clown who just separated UK from Europe hurting everybody in the UK.


    You have no clue about what you are talking.
    Boris didnt do anything except ride a political movemenjt for his own
    career. And you cant separate the UK from Europe, we are patrt of Euripe
    and we are Europeans.
    What happened is that after repeatedly asking the European Union to be >sensible and stop taking bribes, publish their accounts and gernerallly
    start behaving like a adult and responsible government and not a Mafia,
    the people of the UK finally got so pissed off with them they they gave
    them the finger and left.
    It was never about leaving Europe - that is the canard the EU made up,
    It was always about leaving the oppressive, utterly corrupt
    antidemocratic and incompetent European Union.
    And the Union has been trying to destroy Britain just like Russia is
    trying to destroy Ukraine, for having the audacity to tell them,
    politely to fuck off...


    They then move Russians in and claim 'it wants to be part of Russia'.

    I am profoundly grateful that the USA is making some cash out of this,
    as much as I am profoundly grateful that its not Britain this time
    standing alone,

    I worked for Tek when the Iraq war started, so elated they were with the extra orders killing Iraqis provided...
    I quit. and told them why.
    Before that CIA wanted me, I told them to stuff it.


    Sure, I worked for weapons companies for a while. I felt uneasy, and
    left. They weren't saints for sure. loads of taxpayer money being
    wasted, but we did put together some pretty good tech as well, and when
    it comes to corruptions in the 'military industrial complex', there is
    only one winner, an it ain't the USA, its jolly old Putinosvky and his >oligarchic Ripoffsky, Defraudski, and Gimmeayachtsky.

    Without Russia good chance you English would now be speaking German :-)

    Not at all, without UK and US help, Russia would all be speaking
    German, and would be slightly more civilised.

    Frankly the US was incredibly stupid, Churchill tried to tell them what
    was going on. But Roosevelt ignored him and cosied up instead to the
    mass murderer who had killed millions of his own people, and went on to
    kill millions more. I guess given the experience of the Native Americans
    and black slaves, the USA felt Russia was a kindred spirit in genocide.

    As it was it wasn't until what Churchill called the 'iron curtain' came
    down that the USA actually woke up to the fact that they looked set to
    lose an entire market nearly as big as the USA to Russia that they
    decided to create NATO...if Russia had trolled all the way to France -
    and the UK didnt have the power to stop them - then there would have
    been a perfect third Reich, just speaking Russian, that;'s all.

    And big enough to take on the USA, and win.

    "Between the early 1930s and his death in 1953, Joseph Stalin had more
    than a million of his own citizens executed. Millions more fell victim
    to forced labor, deportation, famine, bloody massacres, and detention
    and interrogation by Stalin’s henchmen. Stalin’s Genocides is the >chilling story of these crimes. The book puts forward the important
    argument that brutal mass killings under Stalin in the 1930s were indeed
    acts of genocide and that the Soviet dictator himself was behind them.

    Norman Naimark, one of our most respected authorities on the Soviet era, >challenges the widely held notion that Stalin’s crimes do not constitute >genocide, which the United Nations defines as the premeditated killing
    of a group of people because of their race, religion, or inherent
    national qualities. In this gripping book, Naimark explains how Stalin
    became a pitiless mass killer. He looks at the most consequential and >harrowing episodes of Stalin’s systematic destruction of his own >populace—the liquidation and repression of the so-called kulaks, the >Ukrainian famine, the purge of nationalities, and the Great Terror—and >examines them in light of other genocides in history. In addition,
    Naimark compares Stalin’s crimes with those of the most notorious
    genocidal killer of them all, Adolf Hitler."

    Where are the real inhabitants of Crimea? They are neither Ukrainians
    nor Russians, they were Tatars. They were all deported or killed.

    "Crimean Tatars constituted the majority of Crimea's population from the
    time of ethnogenesis until the mid-19th century, and the largest ethnic >population until the end of the 19th century. Russia attempted to purge >Crimean Tatars through a combination of physical violence, intimidation, >forced resettlement, and legalized forms of discrimination between 1783
    and 1900. Between Russia’s annexation of Crimea in 1783 and 1800,
    somewhere between 100,000 and 300,000 Crimean Tatars emigrated. However,
    this did not result in the complete eradication of Crimean Tatar
    cultural elements (at least not under the Romanov dynasty; however,
    under the Soviets, the Crimean Tatars were almost completely driven from
    the Crimean peninsula). Almost immediately after retaking of Crimea from
    Axis forces, in May 1944, the USSR State Defense Committee ordered the >deportation of all of the Crimean Tatars from Crimea, including the
    families of Crimean Tatars who had served in the Soviet Army. The
    deportees were transported in trains and boxcars to Central Asia,
    primarily to Uzbekistan. The Crimean Tatars lost 18 to 46 percent of
    their population as a result of the deportations. Starting in 1967, a
    few were allowed to return and in 1989 the Supreme Soviet of the Soviet
    Union condemned the removal of Crimean Tatars from their motherland as >inhumane and lawless, but only a tiny percent were able to return before
    the full right of return became policy in 1989. "

    Russia has form Jan. THAT is why we are funding Ukraine. Russia is not a
    nice civilised country even though it had Starbucks and McDonalds in
    Moscow, st Petersburg and Novosibirsk. It is, behind the civilised
    veneer of its urban population, desperately backward, rural, brutal and >lawless, and guess who gets sent to Ukraine, Not the urban westernised >hipsters. The peasants and dregs from the houses with no running water
    no electricity and no flush toilets. From Siberia. Or the Chechens.
    Chechen Lives Don't Matter. There are as many fighting FOR Ukraine as
    against them. Same with the Georgians. Everybody hates Russians. And for >really good reasons. They are ruthless selfish brutal racists, genocidal >psychopaths, supreme liars, corrupt from top to bottom, and have
    absolutely no honour whatsoever. An agreement is there to be broken when
    it suits them.

    Any decent Russian has already left.

    Do the research. Don't listen to the paid Russian trolls on the mass
    media saying how 'Russia has a point' They don't. Russian methodology is
    100% incompatible with Western civilisation and values , they know it,
    and are fighting to destroy it but we don't. We - well you - still
    think they are decent reasonable people and can be negotiated with.
    They cannot. Putin is a pure bred pyschopath and he is president because
    that is what it takes to become a president in Russia. Instead of
    merely very rich and 100% corrupt, like America. Or 100% corrupt and
    only modestly rich, like the EU.

    We cannot negotiate with him, He will break any treaty. WE cannot regime >change him, because someone exactly the same would take his place. All
    we can do is degrade his military potential and let his federation
    collapse from within, and deal with whoever has an ounce of integrity
    that emerges out of the chaos, and if te price of that is we have to pay
    more for oil, well let them eat uranium instead, as some french tart
    once said.

    Well that is a lot of Russofobia I'd say.
    Much of that goes for 'merrica too.

    Do you hide under the bed?

    It is true the EU government is over-reaching in some things.
    And not always doing the things that are best.
    But that goes for politicians in general.

    Is UK doing much better now? I think not if I read about food prices and housing there..

    All seems to be heading to a WW3, I expect in 2024.

    World population will then decrease ...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Robert Riches@3:770/3 to 23k304@bfxw9.net on Tue Aug 8 03:31:18 2023
    On 2023-08-07, 23k.304 <23k304@bfxw9.net> wrote:
    ...
    "Super-Fault-Tolerant" has always interested and
    impressed me. It's an art unto itself. There are
    only a few NEEDS - nuclear-weapons systems, nuke
    reactors and, coolest, space probes. The way NASA
    can essentially re-wire probes, work around even
    primary memory and maybe sub-processor failure and
    such, over a billion-mile remote connection is
    just spectacular.

    Yes, NASA does some amazing things.

    Another use for fault tolerance might be in an aircraft that is
    (by design) inherently so aerodynamically unstable that it cannot
    be flown directly by a human, so it has to be flown by the
    on-board computers. You don't want a fault in a CPU to cause the
    aircraft to fall out of the sky. One of however many of the CPUs
    in the F22's avionics package was designed for QMR. I don't know
    for a fact that the F22 uses that CPU in QMR mode, but if it is
    you could a bullet through one of the CPUs or push a screwdriver
    blade across bus lines, and the system would continue to function
    without losing a single cycle. I designed the instruction fetch
    unit of that chip:

    https://ubbcentral.com/store/item/Vintage-1990-Intel-80960MX-CPU-die-Military-grade-i960-unpackaged-die_264713800656.html

    https://duckduckgo.com/?q=80960mx&hps=1&start=1&ia=web

    --
    Robert Riches
    spamtrap42@jacob21819.net
    (Yes, that is one of my email addresses.)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Jan Panteltje@3:770/3 to Philosopher on Tue Aug 8 04:27:54 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On a sunny day (Mon, 7 Aug 2023 18:07:48 +0100) it happened The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote in <uar8d4$2ui9t$2@dont-email.me>:

    On 07/08/2023 17:01, Chris Elvidge wrote:
    On 07/08/2023 16:43, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Mon, 7 Aug 2023 14:49:46 +0100) it happened The Natural
    Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote in
    <uaqspr$2skqd$1@dont-email.me>:

    On 07/08/2023 12:55, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    It is better to peacefully live together with Russia

    ROFLMAO.
    \

    I do seem to remember that it was Russia that freed much of the
    European continent from the nazis in WW2

    Yes, but they did it with UK/US planes, tanks, ammunition
    Much of it shipped via the northern route around Norway/Finland to the
    detriment of many "allied" merchant seamen.

    Oh, and then they occupied what they could.
    Was Stalin worse than Hitler?
    He managed to kill a hell of a lot of people of "other" ethnicities.

    I wouldn't want to pick one out of Putin, Stalin or Hitler, or indeed
    Robert Mugabe, or Pol Pot, or Chairman Mao. Or indeed Kim Yong Um and
    his utterly murderous sister.

    Well there were some US presidents .. for example one nuking Japan and Bush attacking Iraq
    that maybe you should add to the list?
    And now ByeThen's clown shitlensky burning his people in a war he cannot win just to help sell US arms.
    Not even counting murdering the American Natives...
    And later doing nuke tests on their land ...


    It seems that the transition from barbarism towards westernised
    technology is marked by the rise of psychopathic despots who have no
    regard for their people whatsoever. And whose sole reason for being in
    power is that they somehow acquired industrialised weapons first.

    Maybe it is about greed?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From 23k.304@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Wed Aug 9 01:28:26 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 8/7/23 5:52 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 07/08/2023 06:31, 23k.304 wrote:
    On 8/4/23 4:51 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 04/08/2023 06:08, 23k.304 wrote:
    On 8/3/23 2:44 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Wed, 2 Aug 2023 17:47:56 +0100) it happened The
    Natural
    Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote in
    <uae1bt$5slp$1@dont-email.me>:



        ANYway, /var/log CAN be moved to a RAMdisk if you want.
        Not 100% sure WHY you'd want to, but it CAN. If a few
        very early logs get 'lost' as you re-direct /var/log
        then that MIGHT not be all so important. If you want
        it all on RAMdisk then you don't CARE if it all
        vanishes on reboot. I very rarely look in /var/log
        anyhow so ....

    As I said, whoever you are, the less writing to an SD drive there is, >>>>>> the less chance there is of file system corruption when the power
    goes out.

    To avoid restarts on power failure use a UPS (I do) or just a
    simple battery circuit
    was it not called 'battery hat' or something? with the Pi.


       I remember the "battery hat" - still sold :

       https://www.waveshare.com/li-ion-battery-hat.htm

       But MOST Pi's, because of the high power consumption,
       still run off the mains - so a UPS is probably the
       simplest option. The "battery hat" however might
       serve to deal with very short interruptions.

       However I don't think the most stress to SD cards
       is on boot - but during regular USE ... the usual
       data churning and loading system apps from the
       card. If "ping" is used, well, where does it COME
       from on a PI ? The SD card. Each application has
       to be examined to see what routines are used and
       put them into a RAMdisk or whatever. Remember,
       even reading an SD card involves re-writing the
       thing, that's how the tech works.


    I am not sure it actually does. If you turn off 'last read' with
    'noatime'
    Which you surely would if you cared enough

       A right move ... but doesn't entirely solve the
       SD-wear problem. System apps you're using a lot
       really MUST be moved to RAMdisk. A certain amount
       of the OS does wind up on its own RAMdisk, but
       it might not be what YOU are using a lot.


    No system apps are in use in the sense that they are being loaded from
    disk.

    The are all memory resident and thats that.

    Three daemons, maybe four


    If so, then you ought to be good.


    Apache web server plus sensor watchdog that wakes up every second, looks
    at the state of various RAMDISK based files and reads the SD based
    config files, probably from disk cache 99.99% of the time, and turns
    stuff on and off, plus an xinetd daemon that accepts input from remote thermometers and writes to ram disk and possibly a similar one for the
    oil sensor.

    And that's it.


    Umm ... Apache is NOT a trival app. Does all KINDS
    of things. Are those "things" also on the RAMdisk ???

    A Pi running strictly in terminal mode, no GUIs/Xorg,
    running just a few 'system' thingies is (relatively)
    easy to deal with.


    I guess the usual cron jobs will run, vut thst so on any Pi running
    Raspios.


       Hey, Raspbian might be 2gb image on the SD card
       but yer Pi, depending on model, might not have
       much more RAM (or even LESS if it's a Pi-1/2).
       As such the WHOLE OS cannot be put into RAM.
       All the parts that can't, well, they get read
       over and over from the SD.

    No, they don't. Because huge swathes of the disk image contain programs
    that are *never run at all*. My pi came with for example, gcc and
    friends. Thousands of
    development header files and libraries that will never be invoked once
    the code is stable. Once running my server is currently only using 60MB
    of RAM, with 200+MB in use as disk cache. and over 100MB that isn't used
    at all!

    In a sense you're correct ... maybe 95% of the OS stuff
    might NEVER be used.

    But you STILL have to make sure the stuff that IS used
    winds up on a RAMdisk or in some RAM-based buffer. It's
    not a given, you have to look/deal.

    What about /proc and /sys ... they're very dynamic.
    Are they REALLY all in RAM or not ? Do they ever
    make use of a physical /swap partition ? Depends
    on the particular distro, sometimes down to the
    version/subversion levels.

    In any case, there are SO many ways to implement
    a Linux disto that you can never ASSUME anything.

    I am running apparently 110 separate processes. But these are all kernel processes for the most part, and use very little RAM or CPU. The load
    average is simply 'nothing' . In short this little Zero is completely overspecified for the job it does. It wont wear the card out.

    Careful, some of that "use" is SO transient that it does
    not show up using 'top' or other CL utilities. But it's
    still 'use' ... is it in RAM, or the SD ?

    Nothing that is in the disk cache need ever be read from the disk. And
    indeed if it is written to, the OS will only periodically flush its
    buffers. Those disk caches ARE an effective ram disk protecting the SD
    card from many reads and writes.
    And  doesn't mind being read, it's writes that screw it, anyway.

    "Caches", esp if they need to be quick, are almost
    always in RAM.

    Anyway, if you're REALLY looking to optimize, REALLY
    keen to save SD wear, it's not all cut-and-dried.
    A lot of this stuff is just NOT documented worth a
    damm, YOU have to check and deal appropriately.
    Such is The Art.

    Perfectly done, an SD card might last a good decade
    or more. I had one that was still happy after 7 years,
    and it wasn't even top-of-the-line. But I made an
    effort to make sure everything happening was on a
    RAMdisk or RAM buffer. Limited needs are a big
    help - a "busy" system may just be too much to
    investigate or deal with.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From 23k.304@3:770/3 to Jan Panteltje on Wed Aug 9 02:44:46 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 8/7/23 7:33 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Mon, 7 Aug 2023 01:31:26 -0400) it happened "23k.304" <23k304@bfxw9.net> wrote in <EuCdnXh3WrgjHE35nZ2dnZfqnPidnZ2d@earthlink.com>:

    The compiler-writers have become VERY VERY good.
    Stuff I commonly wrote in ASM on u-controllers
    is actually smaller/faster now using 'C'. That's
    just IMPRESSIVE.

    It may be true for ARM, at least for me, on Raspberry as I have no real experience writing ARM ASM.
    But a simple example for data storage on SDcard (2 GB SDcard in this case) is for example here:
    https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/quadcopter/index.html
    scroll down to flywayspoints.tgz


    ARM is really a CPU, not u-Controller. Different rules.

    u-Controllers aren't as fast/versatile, but they DO have
    a huge number of ways to control power use and, if RISC,
    sneaky ways to make insanely tight code. Look up the
    (mostly obsolete) PIC (f)18x series. There are VERY weird
    ways to cut corners using unexpected flags and side-effects.
    Hey, there were the 'c' chips before them that I used ...
    the 'c' meant UV-Erasable ROM. You had to put 'em in a
    box with a deadly UV tube lamp for at least 15 minutes to
    start all over again. Ah that ozone smell :-)

    IMHO, all in-training "programmers" should first do
    u-controllers ... teaches "disciple" and the correct
    mentality. Ain't gonna HAPPEN of course, to everyone's
    detriment ....


    If you have only one set of data, you do not need a filesystem on the SDcard.

    Correct.

    However the "system" may be doing a LOT of almost-hidden
    things behind your back. SOME of that may involve a lot
    of read/rewrites to the SD. You have to CHECK.

    I use a Microchip PIC 18F14K22 with code in its FLASH memory
    that reads the SDcard one sector at the time.
    Example:
    You have blocks of data, one per second (for example) with GPS position, altitude, heading, etc, that easily fits in 512 bytes.

    Hmmm ... almost like an app I wrote back in the day to
    deal with a serial GPS receiver .......

    But it was 18C chips, other makers called theirs "JW",
    for "jewel window" ...

    Still have the UV box ...

    'PIC' means "Peripheral Interface Controller" and the IDEA
    is much like how nervous systems work. Nerves pre-process
    their input and "encode" it efficiently so the brain doesn't
    have to do so much work. "Peripheral neuropathy" results
    when those nerves don't encode properly anymore. They're
    not 'dead', just 'corrupted'. Lots of quacks will promise
    that shining colored lights at you (now lasers) will cure
    all your ills. This bullshit can be seen even from the
    mid-1800s when it became possible to make bright light.
    Every color was suppose to be the cure-all for SOMETHING
    and rubes payed BIG :-)

    Anyway, yer brain doesn't stop at your skull, it's all one
    integrated system right down to yer toes.

    So one sector per data record,
    Cards come new with some Microsoft filesystem, no need for it.
    PIC is programmed in asm, I used Philips C routines to write to a SDcard sector that I translated into PIC asm.

    Did the same more recently using an Arduino. The SD just
    becomes a faux-RAMdisk, no file system at all, just bytes.
    OK so long as you don't change/rewrite too often.

    So that beats any 'operating system' in code size and any hardware it runs on in power consumption
    and actually if you have some experience with PIC asm in programming time.
    An no more silly libraries that change every new release causing things to no longer work.

    Oh, absolutely ! u-Controllers offer all kinds of tricks
    the CPU/infinite-resources crowd never thinks of.

    I occasionally looked at .a files on *86, and they wrote better
    assembler than I could.

    The old 'Dilbert' narrow-tie people WERE damned good.
    Modern hardware with a lot more resources kind of
    made them obsolete - any 10-year-old could write
    adequate code then.

    So much so that I gave up looking.

    I went to 'C' and PASCAL early on. ASM became only
    for a handful of very weird things neither did well
    at the time.

    Yes Pascal, I did some uni stuff in that, anybody still using it?
    Maybe python will go the same way.

    I use Pascal all the damned time - FPC/Lazarus. Lots
    of times I write protos in Python/TK and then re-write
    the GUIs in Lazarus a week later. I've got a bunch of
    stuff like that ... an older Python version and
    better FPC/Laz version.

    Pascal is super-functional and "elegant" IMHO. Love it.
    'C' is super-functional, but not so "elegant" or so
    obviously comprehensible.

    But I can't find a Modula-3 compiler for Linux that
    actually works - dammit !!! :-)

    But, just to torture my successors, I write the
    odd utility in FORTRAN or COBOL or ADA - yea, yea,
    there's a little devil in me :-)

    BTW, ADA *sucks* ...

    If you want a good functional versatile GUI like *today*
    you use Lazarus. WYSIWYG ! FPC is also very good for
    non-GUI apps. Wrote a large one just six months ago.

    Oh, the Deb repos are DEFECTIVE of late ... get Laz
    from the makers. Three packages to install in order.
    It's all "object PASCAL" .....

    In the Bad Old Days IBM/MS offered both 'C' and
    Pascal compilers (grey book for 'C', pink for Pas).
    That's when I got into Pas. NOW I have old DOS VMs
    *and* both compiler suites. Fun !!! "Turbo Pascal"
    was an absolute revolution on PCs (8088 and Z80
    early on). You could blast out apps ! Still have
    my "Turbo v1.0" manual and a few others. 'Delphi'
    is basically Lazarus, but JUST for Winders. It
    was bought-out and became insanely expensive alas.
    Laz does all the same stuff for free AND for
    Linux too - x86 or ARM.

    No, I'm not a salesman :-)

    This thing uses the same way to write to SDcard one record to one sector per time interval:
    https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/pic/gm_pic2/
    both the C code to read such card and the PIC asm can be downloaded from that site.

    I'll check. HAVE done stuff like this, but there's
    always a "better way".

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From 23k.304@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Thu Aug 10 00:57:04 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 8/9/23 5:53 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 09/08/2023 06:28, 23k.304 wrote:
    Umm ... Apache is NOT a trival app. Does all KINDS
       of things. Are those "things" also on the RAMdisk ???

    Effectvely yes, Ir they are read only

    Sure, it loads a PHP file or ten, but they are read only and they will
    be cached, so they will have no impact on 'wearing' the SD card

    The only thing apache *writes* is log files, and they are on ram disc
    and the only thing that my code *writes*  beyond configuration files
    that are then only ever read, is also on ram disk

    You seem to be under a misapprehension that reads wear out SD cards.
    They dont. Only writes do. Hence the -naoatime directive,



       A Pi running strictly in terminal mode, no GUIs/Xorg,
       running just a few 'system' thingies is (relatively)
       easy to deal with.

    That's how I use em. They are not powerful enough for a desktop, for me,
    yet.

    Well, a P4 is not far off from some of the
    laptops from four or five years ago ...

    Use 'em right and they can offer surprising
    performance.

    Alas you can barely GET P4's anymore ...
    no chips.

    Tried Orange/Banana PI's ... Orange seems
    better - and they're still quasi-affordable.
    But they're both all Made In China.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From 23k.304@3:770/3 to Jan Panteltje on Thu Aug 10 00:43:20 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 8/8/23 12:18 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Mon, 7 Aug 2023 18:01:48 +0100) it happened The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote in <uar81s$2ui9t$1@dont-email.me>:

    On 07/08/2023 16:43, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Mon, 7 Aug 2023 14:49:46 +0100) it happened The Natural
    Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote in <uaqspr$2skqd$1@dont-email.me>: >>>
    On 07/08/2023 12:55, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    It is better to peacefully live together with Russia

    ROFLMAO.
    \

    I do seem to remember that it was Russia that freed much of the European continent from the nazis in WW2

    No, its was the Russians who occupied the countries that Germany had
    overrun, and committed almost identical atrocities to them.
    They weren't freed, they just had a different slavemaster.

    My father was in the resistance in the Netherlands in WW2.
    He also was a journalist that wrote anti-nazi stuff.
    The Germans put him in a concentration camp.
    He was freed by the brave Russians.

    Occupation clear to me these days here is more by US
    The international court of justice in the Hague must now judge on some things says US
    but was not allowed to judge on US war crimes / criminals in Iraq else 'Bush would invade ' (The Netherlands).
    Talk about Mafia, the US is one.
    Just big weapons manufacturers that even supply their own people no end and kill thousand of their
    own people just for sales.
    It designed covid but as always used the far from their bed method and did the experiments in a Chinese lab,
    the same experiments that were considered too dangerous by US DOD itself. Faulty a mass murderer as government adviser now still not sentenced to how many lifetimes or the chair.
    So damage China, the competition. backfired now did it not!
    but then they made millions on the vaccines, those kill many too.
    Criminals they, US, are.






    Its better to run the world on fairy farts and unicorn horns, but it
    ain't happening any time soon.

    It will always be one ant heap against the other, it would only change if we (humming beans)
    faced for example a common enemy, say for example an invader from space.

    Correct. Wars started when we stopped wandering around an hunting and
    gathering, and started collecting food animals into enclosures.
    It was always going to be a tough choice between collecting your own
    animals and fencing them in, which is hard work, or simply taking over
    someone's place where the hard work was already done, killing the owner
    and his sons and having fun with the daughters.

    Its all perfectly rational cost benefit analysis. And the above is a
    pretty accurate desrciption of Russian behaviour in Ukraine, by all
    accounts.



    The only way to live peacefully with Russia is to let Russia run your
    country and rip off everything you own after they have destroyed your
    cities raped the women and killed all the men.

    Not so, using Russian gas was OK, benefitted both sides.
    And you don't think that gas came at a price, when the *whole* of the
    ruling party in Germany had *all* been to Moscow at the Kremlins
    expense, with all 'entertainments' laid on and a hidden camera in every
    room?

    And its a toss up as to whether more Republicans or more democrats are
    in the pay of, or being blackmailed by the FSB., Or how many
    organisations like Greenpeace, FOE, Black Lives Matter or any of the
    rest of them are not indirectly funded and controlled by Russia? The
    Kremlin has global aspirations and it was doing famously until it
    started an actual hot war. Huge mistake. It had already destroyed most
    of the West through culturual Marxism, as some people call it.


    CIA has as mission to put petrol on any fire they can find to get the war machine going so their bosses
    can sell more weapons.
    We, in Europe, can make much better weapons than for example that F35 crap, UK had some nice VTOL fighters.
    But Boris was an US clown who just separated UK from Europe hurting everybody in the UK.


    You have no clue about what you are talking.
    Boris didnt do anything except ride a political movemenjt for his own
    career. And you cant separate the UK from Europe, we are patrt of Euripe
    and we are Europeans.
    What happened is that after repeatedly asking the European Union to be
    sensible and stop taking bribes, publish their accounts and gernerallly
    start behaving like a adult and responsible government and not a Mafia,
    the people of the UK finally got so pissed off with them they they gave
    them the finger and left.
    It was never about leaving Europe - that is the canard the EU made up,
    It was always about leaving the oppressive, utterly corrupt
    antidemocratic and incompetent European Union.
    And the Union has been trying to destroy Britain just like Russia is
    trying to destroy Ukraine, for having the audacity to tell them,
    politely to fuck off...


    They then move Russians in and claim 'it wants to be part of Russia'.

    I am profoundly grateful that the USA is making some cash out of this, >>>> as much as I am profoundly grateful that its not Britain this time
    standing alone,

    I worked for Tek when the Iraq war started, so elated they were with the extra orders killing Iraqis provided...
    I quit. and told them why.
    Before that CIA wanted me, I told them to stuff it.


    Sure, I worked for weapons companies for a while. I felt uneasy, and
    left. They weren't saints for sure. loads of taxpayer money being
    wasted, but we did put together some pretty good tech as well, and when
    it comes to corruptions in the 'military industrial complex', there is
    only one winner, an it ain't the USA, its jolly old Putinosvky and his
    oligarchic Ripoffsky, Defraudski, and Gimmeayachtsky.

    Without Russia good chance you English would now be speaking German :-)

    Not at all, without UK and US help, Russia would all be speaking
    German, and would be slightly more civilised.

    Frankly the US was incredibly stupid, Churchill tried to tell them what
    was going on. But Roosevelt ignored him and cosied up instead to the
    mass murderer who had killed millions of his own people, and went on to
    kill millions more. I guess given the experience of the Native Americans
    and black slaves, the USA felt Russia was a kindred spirit in genocide.

    As it was it wasn't until what Churchill called the 'iron curtain' came
    down that the USA actually woke up to the fact that they looked set to
    lose an entire market nearly as big as the USA to Russia that they
    decided to create NATO...if Russia had trolled all the way to France -
    and the UK didnt have the power to stop them - then there would have
    been a perfect third Reich, just speaking Russian, that;'s all.

    And big enough to take on the USA, and win.

    "Between the early 1930s and his death in 1953, Joseph Stalin had more
    than a million of his own citizens executed. Millions more fell victim
    to forced labor, deportation, famine, bloody massacres, and detention
    and interrogation by Stalin’s henchmen. Stalin’s Genocides is the
    chilling story of these crimes. The book puts forward the important
    argument that brutal mass killings under Stalin in the 1930s were indeed
    acts of genocide and that the Soviet dictator himself was behind them.

    Norman Naimark, one of our most respected authorities on the Soviet era,
    challenges the widely held notion that Stalin’s crimes do not constitute >> genocide, which the United Nations defines as the premeditated killing
    of a group of people because of their race, religion, or inherent
    national qualities. In this gripping book, Naimark explains how Stalin
    became a pitiless mass killer. He looks at the most consequential and
    harrowing episodes of Stalin’s systematic destruction of his own
    populace—the liquidation and repression of the so-called kulaks, the
    Ukrainian famine, the purge of nationalities, and the Great Terror—and
    examines them in light of other genocides in history. In addition,
    Naimark compares Stalin’s crimes with those of the most notorious
    genocidal killer of them all, Adolf Hitler."

    Where are the real inhabitants of Crimea? They are neither Ukrainians
    nor Russians, they were Tatars. They were all deported or killed.

    "Crimean Tatars constituted the majority of Crimea's population from the
    time of ethnogenesis until the mid-19th century, and the largest ethnic
    population until the end of the 19th century. Russia attempted to purge
    Crimean Tatars through a combination of physical violence, intimidation,
    forced resettlement, and legalized forms of discrimination between 1783
    and 1900. Between Russia’s annexation of Crimea in 1783 and 1800,
    somewhere between 100,000 and 300,000 Crimean Tatars emigrated. However,
    this did not result in the complete eradication of Crimean Tatar
    cultural elements (at least not under the Romanov dynasty; however,
    under the Soviets, the Crimean Tatars were almost completely driven from
    the Crimean peninsula). Almost immediately after retaking of Crimea from
    Axis forces, in May 1944, the USSR State Defense Committee ordered the
    deportation of all of the Crimean Tatars from Crimea, including the
    families of Crimean Tatars who had served in the Soviet Army. The
    deportees were transported in trains and boxcars to Central Asia,
    primarily to Uzbekistan. The Crimean Tatars lost 18 to 46 percent of
    their population as a result of the deportations. Starting in 1967, a
    few were allowed to return and in 1989 the Supreme Soviet of the Soviet
    Union condemned the removal of Crimean Tatars from their motherland as
    inhumane and lawless, but only a tiny percent were able to return before
    the full right of return became policy in 1989. "

    Russia has form Jan. THAT is why we are funding Ukraine. Russia is not a
    nice civilised country even though it had Starbucks and McDonalds in
    Moscow, st Petersburg and Novosibirsk. It is, behind the civilised
    veneer of its urban population, desperately backward, rural, brutal and
    lawless, and guess who gets sent to Ukraine, Not the urban westernised
    hipsters. The peasants and dregs from the houses with no running water
    no electricity and no flush toilets. From Siberia. Or the Chechens.
    Chechen Lives Don't Matter. There are as many fighting FOR Ukraine as
    against them. Same with the Georgians. Everybody hates Russians. And for
    really good reasons. They are ruthless selfish brutal racists, genocidal
    psychopaths, supreme liars, corrupt from top to bottom, and have
    absolutely no honour whatsoever. An agreement is there to be broken when
    it suits them.

    Any decent Russian has already left.

    Do the research. Don't listen to the paid Russian trolls on the mass
    media saying how 'Russia has a point' They don't. Russian methodology is
    100% incompatible with Western civilisation and values , they know it,
    and are fighting to destroy it but we don't. We - well you - still
    think they are decent reasonable people and can be negotiated with.
    They cannot. Putin is a pure bred pyschopath and he is president because
    that is what it takes to become a president in Russia. Instead of
    merely very rich and 100% corrupt, like America. Or 100% corrupt and
    only modestly rich, like the EU.

    We cannot negotiate with him, He will break any treaty. WE cannot regime
    change him, because someone exactly the same would take his place. All
    we can do is degrade his military potential and let his federation
    collapse from within, and deal with whoever has an ounce of integrity
    that emerges out of the chaos, and if te price of that is we have to pay
    more for oil, well let them eat uranium instead, as some french tart
    once said.

    Well that is a lot of Russofobia I'd say.
    Much of that goes for 'merrica too.

    Do you hide under the bed?

    It is true the EU government is over-reaching in some things.
    And not always doing the things that are best.
    But that goes for politicians in general.

    Is UK doing much better now? I think not if I read about food prices and housing there..

    All seems to be heading to a WW3, I expect in 2024.

    World population will then decrease ...


    How big of a vodka ration does Putin provide ?

    Clue - BIG clue - people don't flee to Russia, they
    flee to 'western' countries/USA instead.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Jan Panteltje@3:770/3 to 23k304@bfxw9.net on Thu Aug 10 05:33:30 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On a sunny day (Thu, 10 Aug 2023 00:43:20 -0400) it happened "23k.304" <23k304@bfxw9.net> wrote in <Oe-cnQaXFuF190n5nZ2dnZfqnPSdnZ2d@earthlink.com>:

    On 8/8/23 12:18 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    Well that is a lot of Russofobia I'd say.
    Much of that goes for 'merrica too.

    Do you hide under the bed?

    It is true the EU government is over-reaching in some things.
    And not always doing the things that are best.
    But that goes for politicians in general.

    Is UK doing much better now? I think not if I read about food prices and housing there..

    All seems to be heading to a WW3, I expect in 2024.

    World population will then decrease ...


    How big of a vodka ration does Putin provide ?

    Clue - BIG clue - people don't flee to Russia,

    Edward Snowden


    they flee to 'western' countries/USA instead.

    Western countries want cheap worker slaves.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From 23k.304@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Thu Aug 10 01:25:08 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 8/7/23 5:35 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 07/08/2023 05:21, 23k.304 wrote:
    Getting an EXACT voltage output from a little "hummer" supply
       like that might be tricky. As said, it depends on what you're doing.

       Oh, if you're powering direct from the mains, why CARE what
       the quiescent current is ? That's more for battery/solar apps.
       You could use a vacuum-tube based power supply  😄

    There are two halves to what I am building. A mains powered server in a
    box controlling stuff and accepting inputs from remote sensors and
    running a web server as a user interface for user level information and control, and the sensors themselves which may, and in one case must be, battery powered. Namely thermometers, whose response time will be in
    tens of minutes at best, and a (battery powered)  oil level sensor whose response can be in an hour or two.


    Sounds like an 'environmental sensor' cluster I did
    about five years ago - solar, and had to be cheap.
    However I was using an Ard Mega which can be VERY
    conservative with power. First off, pry out those
    pretty LEDs :-)


    So the mains powered server, already has relays switching mains in it,
    and I  have bought a custom 'block' switched mode PSU that should run it
    ok. The Pi Zero W has its own SMPS internally to generate the 3V3 and
    1V8 rails it needs, and will allegedly run from 1.8V to 5.5V input wise,
    and the PICO has similar, although it seems to only need 3V3.


    I see what you're doing. For the server part, does it
    REALLY matter if wall-warts or such are involved ? They
    are cheap and there's always a ton of them around from
    old dead devices ...


    So its (the PICO) fairly ideal for battery power, as long as it spends
    plenty of time *off*...

    Yep - "OFF".

    I'd still look into the Ards. There are 3.3v variants
    to be had now if that's your thing. There's a convenient
    low-power library now that helps coordinate shutting off
    all the useless stuff while waiting for some signal.

    The idea is the thermometers won't *need* batteries if there is a handy
    USB power source available, but the oil sensor is not so lucky.  It must
    be battery powered.

    Bummer. Be CAREFUL with batteries around flammable
    stuff like "oil" though - LiPo's have a BAD rep ...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From 23k.304@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Thu Aug 10 01:41:54 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 8/9/23 5:53 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 09/08/2023 06:28, 23k.304 wrote:
    Umm ... Apache is NOT a trival app. Does all KINDS
       of things. Are those "things" also on the RAMdisk ???

    Effectvely yes, Ir they are read only


    No such thing as "read only" with SD/Flash tech.
    Even reading them means re-writing them. Really !

    I'd suggest FRAM, but they never got the capacity
    up to scale (great for smaller stuff though).


    Sure, it loads a PHP file or ten, but they are read only and they will
    be cached, so they will have no impact on 'wearing' the SD card

    DO check ... there's probably a lot of "sneak" reads/writes.

    The only thing apache *writes* is log files, and they are on ram disc
    and the only thing that my code *writes*  beyond configuration files
    that are then only ever read, is also on ram disk

    You seem to be under a misapprehension that reads wear out SD cards.
    They dont. Only writes do. Hence the -naoatime directive,

    Wrong - look it up. Reads are DESTRUCTIVE and background
    re-write is necessary afterwards.

    FRAM has two or three orders of magnitude more re-write
    life. Used 'em on one board where that was relevant. But ...

    However, Raspbian/Deb writ for PI's IS heavily tweaked
    for running all in RAM. Large bits of the OS stuff just
    get moved-off into RAM rather than relying on SD.

    Orange/Banana Pi's have EEMC, which is a bit difficult
    to get at sometimes but you CAN shift the OS image
    into there. Maybe two or three times the life of the
    best SD's at least and faster.

       A Pi running strictly in terminal mode, no GUIs/Xorg,
       running just a few 'system' thingies is (relatively)
       easy to deal with.

    That's how I use em. They are not powerful enough for a desktop, for me,
    yet.

    Many apps don't NEED that kind of speed - even on a
    desktop. The advantage of desktops/laptops is the
    CONNECTIVITY options when we're talking "industrial"
    applications. WiFi/BT/IR/x-Base-T ...

    Even a low-end PIC can figure out a DS one-wire
    temperature sensor ... but CONVEYING that knowledge
    to the outside world is the trick.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From 23k.304@3:770/3 to Jan Panteltje on Thu Aug 10 02:01:16 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 8/10/23 1:33 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Thu, 10 Aug 2023 00:43:20 -0400) it happened "23k.304" <23k304@bfxw9.net> wrote in <Oe-cnQaXFuF190n5nZ2dnZfqnPSdnZ2d@earthlink.com>:

    On 8/8/23 12:18 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    Well that is a lot of Russofobia I'd say.
    Much of that goes for 'merrica too.

    Do you hide under the bed?

    It is true the EU government is over-reaching in some things.
    And not always doing the things that are best.
    But that goes for politicians in general.

    Is UK doing much better now? I think not if I read about food prices and housing there..

    All seems to be heading to a WW3, I expect in 2024.

    World population will then decrease ...


    How big of a vodka ration does Putin provide ?

    Clue - BIG clue - people don't flee to Russia,

    Edward Snowden

    No choice. Somehow I really doubt he's happy.

    they flee to 'western' countries/USA instead.

    Western countries want cheap worker slaves.

    Eastern countries try to convince them that
    de-facto slavery is a Great Thing ....

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From 23k.304@3:770/3 to Martin Gregorie on Thu Aug 10 02:15:36 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 8/6/23 10:22 AM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
    On Sun, 6 Aug 2023 08:21:04 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 06/08/2023 02:45, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
    In comp.os.linux.misc The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
    wrote:
    When you are looking at second hand SD cards plus postage, the cost
    benefit analyis told me I should pay the money for whatever was the
    current best price on new stuff , with plenty of life left, from the
    same shop that was shipping me the Pi. To leverage the postage. and that
    turns out to be 16GB. Why, I don't have a clue. I could ask an old
    college friend who used to work designing NAND flash in California, but
    I am not sure I give a rat's arse why.

    Again, you asses a situation and what you want, and work out the least
    cost and effort to arrive at that target. If I could get 2GB cards at 5
    for £10 I'd use those, But I cant.

    I was interested because I don't remember ever having an SD card for my
    ancient camera that was that small (256MB).

    I use 8GB Samsung in my cameras and flight recorders. If you buy branded cards from brands that are known the own their own chip fab, then you're
    less likely to end up with some chunk of junk with memory to hold just a fraction of its advertised capacity.

    At present, Samsung is The Best.

    Somewhere, maybe deep, there'll be code to get
    the most out of their devices.

    Shit, I bought a Epson scanner - one of those
    ones that just looks like a bar - took me like
    six hours of digging to find a minimal app
    for Linux. 99.99% of the site said no such thing
    existed, but we have Fellow Travelers embedded
    everywhere .....

    As for cheapo cameras ... I once found a $7.95 cam
    on a drugstore shelf. Absolutely HORRIBLE - could
    barely manage 200-by. However, "artistically", the
    sheer crappiness DID produce some interesting
    results :-)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Jan Panteltje@3:770/3 to 23k304@bfxw9.net on Thu Aug 10 07:10:02 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On a sunny day (Thu, 10 Aug 2023 02:01:16 -0400) it happened "23k.304" <23k304@bfxw9.net> wrote in <kf-dnWvP1JCx4En5nZ2dnZfqnPidnZ2d@earthlink.com>:

    On 8/10/23 1:33 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Thu, 10 Aug 2023 00:43:20 -0400) it happened "23k.304"
    <23k304@bfxw9.net> wrote in <Oe-cnQaXFuF190n5nZ2dnZfqnPSdnZ2d@earthlink.com>:

    On 8/8/23 12:18 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    Well that is a lot of Russofobia I'd say.
    Much of that goes for 'merrica too.

    Do you hide under the bed?

    It is true the EU government is over-reaching in some things.
    And not always doing the things that are best.
    But that goes for politicians in general.

    Is UK doing much better now? I think not if I read about food prices and housing there..

    All seems to be heading to a WW3, I expect in 2024.

    World population will then decrease ...


    How big of a vodka ration does Putin provide ?

    Clue - BIG clue - people don't flee to Russia,

    Edward Snowden

    No choice. Somehow I really doubt he's happy.

    they flee to 'western' countries/USA instead.

    Western countries want cheap worker slaves.

    Eastern countries try to convince them that
    de-facto slavery is a Great Thing ....

    In fact 'slavery' is a relative thing
    Are our gut bacteria / microbes our slaves?
    We feed them they provide us with energy
    Its nature.

    Same everywhere in nature.
    People will migrate to where they think it will help them.
    Maybe Russia is a bit too cold for the black Africans
    or too many other countries in between when they can get what they want in Europe just a small boat trip away,
    used to get you a room in a nice hotel in the UK...
    Language is an other factor that counts.

    I have never been to Russia myself, been to East Germany before and after the wall fell though.
    Life was not bad or people unhappy there as far as I remember.
    Did read these days people in East Germany are payed less .. housing, did things REALLY improve after the wall fell?
    Products? I had a nice Werra 35 mm photo camera made in East Germany, color TV set too, transistor portable TVs.
    Many things from the US are crap these days, not even counting that F35 disaster.
    I have a Whirlpool washing machine (US), and laundry drier, good thing I am experienced in electronics
    the washing machine broke down in the guarantee, power switcher design error, was fixed (new board),
    then it broke down again a bit later, as did the laundry drier...
    Got some spare parts from ebay, think I now used the last ones... Put some protection circuit against mains spikes in the thing.
    so far still working... water was leaking into the electronics too.
    not to mention all the other US crap like Teslas catching fire...
    China is cheaper and most stuff from ebay from China just works, not perfect but good enough
    like my sat receivers, short wave radio, mutimeters, keyboard and mouse, lights, wallwarts, battery chargers, solar panels,
    (just looking around), drones, cameras, OLED and LCD displays,..
    No wonder US is afraid of China, no way can they compete.
    But their Microchip PICs are OK :-)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Jan Panteltje@3:770/3 to 23k304@bfxw9.net on Thu Aug 10 07:39:20 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On a sunny day (Thu, 10 Aug 2023 02:15:37 -0400) it happened "23k.304" <23k304@bfxw9.net> wrote in <G0adnXZREpoEHUn5nZ2dnZfqn_GdnZ2d@earthlink.com>:

    On 8/6/23 10:22 AM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
    On Sun, 6 Aug 2023 08:21:04 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 06/08/2023 02:45, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
    In comp.os.linux.misc The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
    wrote:
    When you are looking at second hand SD cards plus postage, the cost
    benefit analyis told me I should pay the money for whatever was the
    current best price on new stuff , with plenty of life left, from the
    same shop that was shipping me the Pi. To leverage the postage. and that >>> turns out to be 16GB. Why, I don't have a clue. I could ask an old
    college friend who used to work designing NAND flash in California, but
    I am not sure I give a rat's arse why.

    Again, you asses a situation and what you want, and work out the least
    cost and effort to arrive at that target. If I could get 2GB cards at 5 >>> for £10 I'd use those, But I cant.

    I was interested because I don't remember ever having an SD card for my
    ancient camera that was that small (256MB).

    I use 8GB Samsung in my cameras and flight recorders. If you buy branded
    cards from brands that are known the own their own chip fab, then you're
    less likely to end up with some chunk of junk with memory to hold just a
    fraction of its advertised capacity.

    At present, Samsung is The Best.

    Somewhere, maybe deep, there'll be code to get
    the most out of their devices.

    Shit, I bought a Epson scanner - one of those
    ones that just looks like a bar - took me like
    six hours of digging to find a minimal app
    for Linux. 99.99% of the site said no such thing
    existed, but we have Fellow Travelers embedded
    everywhere .....

    As for cheapo cameras ... I once found a $7.95 cam
    on a drugstore shelf. Absolutely HORRIBLE - could
    barely manage 200-by. However, "artistically", the
    sheer crappiness DID produce some interesting
    results :-)

    Cameras are an interesting thing
    I worked in broadcasting over time with anything from orthicons (BW) to vidicons to plumbicons...
    Designed and build my own portable vidicon camera back in 1968.
    Canons I have, good lenses.
    But then I bought a Xiaomi smartphone for only 140 Euro or so a few years back. Took some pictures with it...
    Amazing.
    I leave the Canon at home now... For technical pictures.
    I have not used the scanner since win 95? Linux had indeed no driver.
    I do have an old MS Windows boot option on a very old PC just for the scanner, but the Canon A470 and IXUS do just as well.
    The Xiaomi is OK too.
    Photographed hundreds of pages of pencil drawn circuit diagrams I designed with that Canon IXUS.
    Amazing how much goes on a small SDcard and then backup to a 4 TB drive :-)

    I once counted how may cameras I have ... 26? 6 running 24/7.
    The small Sony super-HADs are nice, not high resolution but good night vision, in IR too I found out
    http://www.camera-module.com/product/others/700tvl-ahd-security-camera-sony-960h-ccd-sensor.html
    0.01 Lux...
    And of course that Raspberry IR camera module I have here too
    https://panteltje.nl/pub/MKX90640_FLIR_IXIMG_0778.JPG
    very low resolution, but I wrote some software for it:
    https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/newsflex/download.html#xflir

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to All on Thu Aug 10 11:12:04 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 10/08/2023 06:41, 23k.304 wrote:
    No such thing as "read only" with SD/Flash tech.
      Even reading them means re-writing them. Really !

    I believe that to be completely wrong.

    And unless you can provide some sort of evidence to back up that
    assertion, I have to say I consider it utter bollocks

    --
    Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have
    guns, why should we let them have ideas?

    Josef Stalin

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Dennis Lee Bieber@3:770/3 to All on Thu Aug 10 12:10:00 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On Wed, 9 Aug 2023 02:44:46 -0400, "23k.304" <23k304@bfxw9.net> declaimed
    the following:



    ARM is really a CPU, not u-Controller. Different rules.


    M-series chips fill the role of microcontroller meant to run without an OS (or something like FreeRTOS) direct from flash memory; the A-series (application) are meant to be OS-based computer systems with complicated
    boot sequences <G> (just look at most R-Pi systems -- where the /graphics processor/ is used to configure the ARM memory map before turning over control).

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Rich@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Thu Aug 10 19:13:04 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    In comp.os.linux.misc The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 10/08/2023 06:41, 23k.304 wrote:
    No such thing as "read only" with SD/Flash tech.
      Even reading them means re-writing them. Really !

    I believe that to be completely wrong.

    It is, at least as a general statement in regards to flash memory.
    There may be /some/ flash "drives" (used generically to refer to SD and
    SATA disks) where if the controller detects an issue with the read, it
    may decide to reallocate the data to another set of flash cells.

    And unless you can provide some sort of evidence to back up that
    assertion, I have to say I consider it utter bollocks

    Consider the source....

    I suspect he has mixed up flash technology with DRAM technology, where
    reading a row from DRAM does indeed cause a rewrite of the capacitors
    in that row because readout in DRAM actually lowers the charge on the
    storage capacitors.

    Flash operates differently and reads do not weaken the stored charge on
    the flash floating gates.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Tauno Voipio@3:770/3 to All on Thu Aug 10 21:22:20 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 10.8.2023 8.41, 23k.304 wrote:
    On 8/9/23 5:53 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    Effectvely yes, Ir they are read only


      No such thing as "read only" with SD/Flash tech.
      Even reading them means re-writing them. Really !

    You're confusing Flash technology with magnetic core memory
    technology used about 50 years ago. A core must be reset
    to zero to see if there was an one, and the possible one
    has to be written back.

    --

    -TV

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From 23k.304@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Fri Aug 11 01:58:14 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 8/7/23 4:49 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 06/08/2023 15:45, Pancho wrote:
    On 05/08/2023 22:14, Martin Gregorie wrote:
    On Sat, 5 Aug 2023 15:23:21 +0100, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:

    On Sat, 5 Aug 2023 14:36:08 +0100 Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me>
    wrote:

    I was actually surprised at how fast the new Ryzen was. Maybe it is
    time to buy a new PC.

        I haven't done that in a long time. I used to buy parts and make >>>> them but these days I buy "refurbished"* ex-corporate machines which
    are
    cheap and far better made than the typical consumer PC.

    * Read cleaned, OS reinstalled and stripped of asset tags.

    It may well be worth looking at getting a new PC.

    Since around 2005 my house server was a Dual Athlon PC in a noname case
    and not new when I got it in 2005 and has had at least two new disks
    (bog
    standard WD 500MB blue) since then.

    I think it all depends, what you want. If you don't already have a PC
    less than 10 years old, then second-hand deals are good.

    In most respects I found a 10-year-old 2500K, OK to use. Up until a
    couple of years ago it was my desktop, then its graphics card broke,
    and it got relegated to HTPC, it wasn't so good at that. I've just
    replaced it with an Orange Pi 5, with caveats, the Orange Pi 5 is
    better as a TV computer. The Orange Pi 5 was cheap. I've also bought a
    couple of low power new NUC types for about £200, for relatives, e.g.
    Intel N5150, they are generally happy with them.

    Mainly I've been interested in small low wattage PCs, it is only
    recently that they have been quicker than my old 2500K. The new big
    desktops were quick, but not that much quicker, maybe twice as fast,
    for a reasonable price. Now, the Ryzen 5 7600 is looking to be 3-4
    times as fast, single thread, more than 3-4 multi thread. Which might
    be noticeable, for me, I don't know. Without having one, it is hard to
    know.

    Its been a few years now, since I felt my machines were too slow for the
    job they were doing.

    I accept that people doing video editing or shooting up 3D aliens in
    unlikely scenarios may need more, but I don't.

    I am more replacing now to lower power consumption, although even that
    is not 100% wasted as the computers heat this room in winter.

    Modern machines are INSANELY FAST. We older players
    are particularly aware of that. We remember the 4004's
    and 8008s's - (found an AD for an 8008 system the other
    day ! Why, you could even do MORSE CODE with it ! Just
    toggle those panel switches over and over to enter the
    binary instructions one at a time :-)

    Been there, done that.

    The only people who need an overclocked i9 with the
    latest NVIDIA product are obsessive GAMERS. Yes, they
    have their place and DO drive tech, but .......

    A fuckin Raspberry Pi would have been considered a
    SUPERCOMPUTER back in the 70s.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From 23k.304@3:770/3 to Jan Panteltje on Fri Aug 11 01:45:58 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 8/10/23 3:10 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Thu, 10 Aug 2023 02:01:16 -0400) it happened "23k.304" <23k304@bfxw9.net> wrote in <kf-dnWvP1JCx4En5nZ2dnZfqnPidnZ2d@earthlink.com>:

    On 8/10/23 1:33 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Thu, 10 Aug 2023 00:43:20 -0400) it happened "23k.304"
    <23k304@bfxw9.net> wrote in <Oe-cnQaXFuF190n5nZ2dnZfqnPSdnZ2d@earthlink.com>:

    On 8/8/23 12:18 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    Well that is a lot of Russofobia I'd say.
    Much of that goes for 'merrica too.

    Do you hide under the bed?

    It is true the EU government is over-reaching in some things.
    And not always doing the things that are best.
    But that goes for politicians in general.

    Is UK doing much better now? I think not if I read about food prices and housing there..

    All seems to be heading to a WW3, I expect in 2024.

    World population will then decrease ...


    How big of a vodka ration does Putin provide ?

    Clue - BIG clue - people don't flee to Russia,

    Edward Snowden

    No choice. Somehow I really doubt he's happy.

    they flee to 'western' countries/USA instead.

    Western countries want cheap worker slaves.

    Eastern countries try to convince them that
    de-facto slavery is a Great Thing ....

    In fact 'slavery' is a relative thing
    Are our gut bacteria / microbes our slaves?
    We feed them they provide us with energy
    Its nature.

    Same everywhere in nature.
    People will migrate to where they think it will help them.
    Maybe Russia is a bit too cold for the black Africans
    or too many other countries in between when they can get what they want in Europe just a small boat trip away,
    used to get you a room in a nice hotel in the UK...
    Language is an other factor that counts.

    I have never been to Russia myself, been to East Germany before and after the wall fell though.
    Life was not bad or people unhappy there as far as I remember.
    Did read these days people in East Germany are payed less .. housing, did things REALLY improve after the wall fell?
    Products? I had a nice Werra 35 mm photo camera made in East Germany, color TV set too, transistor portable TVs.
    Many things from the US are crap these days, not even counting that F35 disaster.
    I have a Whirlpool washing machine (US), and laundry drier, good thing I am experienced in electronics
    the washing machine broke down in the guarantee, power switcher design error, was fixed (new board),
    then it broke down again a bit later, as did the laundry drier...
    Got some spare parts from ebay, think I now used the last ones... Put some protection circuit against mains spikes in the thing.
    so far still working... water was leaking into the electronics too.
    not to mention all the other US crap like Teslas catching fire...
    China is cheaper and most stuff from ebay from China just works, not perfect but good enough
    like my sat receivers, short wave radio, mutimeters, keyboard and mouse, lights, wallwarts, battery chargers, solar panels,
    (just looking around), drones, cameras, OLED and LCD displays,..
    No wonder US is afraid of China, no way can they compete.
    But their Microchip PICs are OK :-)


    Ah, obfuscation ....

    Is that in the FSB handbook ? Surely !

    Piss off.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Jan Panteltje@3:770/3 to 23k304@bfxw9.net on Fri Aug 11 06:55:06 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On a sunny day (Fri, 11 Aug 2023 01:45:58 -0400) it happened "23k.304" <23k304@bfxw9.net> wrote in <M6qdnRMgFrOLVkj5nZ2dnZfqn_GdnZ2d@earthlink.com>:

    On 8/10/23 3:10 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Thu, 10 Aug 2023 02:01:16 -0400) it happened "23k.304"
    <23k304@bfxw9.net> wrote in <kf-dnWvP1JCx4En5nZ2dnZfqnPidnZ2d@earthlink.com>:

    On 8/10/23 1:33 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Thu, 10 Aug 2023 00:43:20 -0400) it happened "23k.304" >>>> <23k304@bfxw9.net> wrote in <Oe-cnQaXFuF190n5nZ2dnZfqnPSdnZ2d@earthlink.com>:

    On 8/8/23 12:18 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    Well that is a lot of Russofobia I'd say.
    Much of that goes for 'merrica too.

    Do you hide under the bed?

    It is true the EU government is over-reaching in some things.
    And not always doing the things that are best.
    But that goes for politicians in general.

    Is UK doing much better now? I think not if I read about food prices and housing there..

    All seems to be heading to a WW3, I expect in 2024.

    World population will then decrease ...


    How big of a vodka ration does Putin provide ?

    Clue - BIG clue - people don't flee to Russia,

    Edward Snowden

    No choice. Somehow I really doubt he's happy.

    they flee to 'western' countries/USA instead.

    Western countries want cheap worker slaves.

    Eastern countries try to convince them that
    de-facto slavery is a Great Thing ....

    In fact 'slavery' is a relative thing
    Are our gut bacteria / microbes our slaves?
    We feed them they provide us with energy
    Its nature.

    Same everywhere in nature.
    People will migrate to where they think it will help them.
    Maybe Russia is a bit too cold for the black Africans
    or too many other countries in between when they can get what they want in Europe just a small boat trip away,
    used to get you a room in a nice hotel in the UK...
    Language is an other factor that counts.

    I have never been to Russia myself, been to East Germany before and after the wall fell though.
    Life was not bad or people unhappy there as far as I remember.
    Did read these days people in East Germany are payed less .. housing, did things REALLY improve after the wall fell?
    Products? I had a nice Werra 35 mm photo camera made in East Germany, color TV set too, transistor portable TVs.
    Many things from the US are crap these days, not even counting that F35 disaster.
    I have a Whirlpool washing machine (US), and laundry drier, good thing I am experienced in electronics
    the washing machine broke down in the guarantee, power switcher design error, was fixed (new board),
    then it broke down again a bit later, as did the laundry drier...
    Got some spare parts from ebay, think I now used the last ones... Put some protection circuit against mains spikes in the
    thing.
    so far still working... water was leaking into the electronics too.
    not to mention all the other US crap like Teslas catching fire...
    China is cheaper and most stuff from ebay from China just works, not perfect but good enough
    like my sat receivers, short wave radio, mutimeters, keyboard and mouse, lights, wallwarts, battery chargers, solar panels,
    (just looking around), drones, cameras, OLED and LCD displays,..
    No wonder US is afraid of China, no way can they compete.
    But their Microchip PICs are OK :-)


    Ah, obfuscation ....

    Is that in the FSB handbook ? Surely !

    Piss off.

    Poor guy, I have to admit your US brainwasher did work!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From 23k.304@3:770/3 to Rich on Fri Aug 11 03:00:28 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 8/10/23 3:13 PM, Rich wrote:
    In comp.os.linux.misc The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 10/08/2023 06:41, 23k.304 wrote:
    No such thing as "read only" with SD/Flash tech.
      Even reading them means re-writing them. Really !

    I believe that to be completely wrong.

    It is, at least as a general statement in regards to flash memory.
    There may be /some/ flash "drives" (used generically to refer to SD and
    SATA disks) where if the controller detects an issue with the read, it
    may decide to reallocate the data to another set of flash cells.

    And unless you can provide some sort of evidence to back up that
    assertion, I have to say I consider it utter bollocks

    Consider the source....

    I suspect he has mixed up flash technology with DRAM technology, where reading a row from DRAM

    I am well aware of how DRAM works ... I was in
    the biz BEFORE DRAM. Ah, SRAM ... so much
    nicer to deal with. They couldn't scale it
    up alas.

    "Flash" is a "smart device". It has a controller.
    One function is "wear-leveling", but another is
    "rewrite on read". YOU never see this stuff.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From 23k.304@3:770/3 to Dennis Lee Bieber on Fri Aug 11 02:24:40 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 8/10/23 12:10 PM, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
    On Wed, 9 Aug 2023 02:44:46 -0400, "23k.304" <23k304@bfxw9.net> declaimed
    the following:



    ARM is really a CPU, not u-Controller. Different rules.


    M-series chips fill the role of microcontroller meant to run without an OS (or something like FreeRTOS) direct from flash memory; the A-series (application) are meant to be OS-based computer systems with complicated
    boot sequences <G> (just look at most R-Pi systems -- where the /graphics processor/ is used to configure the ARM memory map before turning over control).

    I tend to separate "CPU"s from "u-Controllers". They
    are really different "concepts", aimed at different
    universes.

    u-Controllers offer VERY fine-grained control ... but
    not much "performance" in the conventional sense. They
    are for interacting with the often-messy Real World.

    In THIS context, you CAN basically turn OFF a u-Controller
    chip - no power used except waiting for a signal on an
    interrupt pin. You can run the clockspeed down to almost
    nothing (actually nothing on some). You can't do that
    with "CPU"s. Different worlds. Different apps.

    Epson did, I think still, sells 4-bit u-Controllers.
    They're mostly meant for coin-cell devices like remote
    controls and thermostats and such and you have to order
    like 100,000 at a time. However, if you read the docs,
    they are just FANTASTICALLY versatile - endless tricks
    you can use to cope with Real World needs. 4-bits really
    CAN be more than enough.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From 23k.304@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Fri Aug 11 02:55:34 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 8/10/23 6:12 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 10/08/2023 06:41, 23k.304 wrote:
    No such thing as "read only" with SD/Flash tech.
       Even reading them means re-writing them. Really !

    I believe that to be completely wrong.

    Look it up. I don't have time to do all your research.

    YOU don't do the re-write, the logic for that
    it is built into the flash device, hidden in the
    background. Reading kinda blanks what's there,
    and then it has to be re-writ.


    And unless you can provide some sort of evidence to back up that
    assertion, I have to say I consider it utter bollocks

    Well, have fun with the bollocks ...

    I was there long before any of this tech was
    invented, learned the good AND bad. A lot of
    the bad has been *disappeared* of late ...

    IF your needs are small enough, under 256kb
    or so, with u-controller apps, then look into
    FRAM rather than "flash". Oh, it's a lot FASTER
    too, no waiting cycles for R/W.

    "Flash" is not just some dumb memory chip despite
    how it tries to present itself to the user, it
    has a CONTROLLER. One function is "wear-leveling"
    but another underlying function is the "re-write
    on read" aspect.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to 23k304@bfxw9.net on Fri Aug 11 09:02:36 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On Fri, 11 Aug 2023 01:58:15 -0400
    "23k.304" <23k304@bfxw9.net> wrote:

    A fuckin Raspberry Pi would have been considered a
    SUPERCOMPUTER back in the 70s.

    Or even quit a lot later (into the 90s), I did see a claim that a
    PI4 can emulate a Cray 1 faster than the real thing.

    Most people walk around carrying pocket supercomputers with more display pixels than a 1980s terminal room, better sound reproduction than a
    top end 1980s record deck, a ridiculously good camera and more internet bandwidth than Ireland had in 1995. They sometimes unthinkingly leave them behind or even *drop* them.

    Not one of the science fiction books I own (many of them now set in
    the past) saw that one coming - computer power has become so cheap and ubiquitous that it's invisible to most people.

    Now consider this - there are companies (many of them) who buy commodity storage clusters consisting of many (over a hundred is not
    unusual) nodes each with around a quarter petabyte of SSDs, half a terabyte
    of RAM and multiple 100 Gb network ports on each node all seeing a common distributed filesystem. There are even a few outfits who have regular orders for kit like this and the biggest players don't buy these products they make their own.

    That's just one corner of the business. The outfits that sell CPU
    and GPU resources are filling racks with extremely high density computing
    power - several hundred cores and a few terabytes of RAM in every 2U slot.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Fri Aug 11 10:32:54 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On Thu, 10 Aug 2023 11:12:05 +0100
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 10/08/2023 06:41, 23k.304 wrote:
    No such thing as "read only" with SD/Flash tech.
      Even reading them means re-writing them. Really !

    I believe that to be completely wrong.

    Nope - but it's not quite as it sounds for details see this patent:

    https://patents.google.com/patent/EP2077559A2/en

    TL;DR reading does degrade the storage in flash memory which means
    it needs to be rewritten before it degrades too much, which takes thousands
    to millions of reads depending on the type of cell.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Fri Aug 11 12:21:00 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 11/08/2023 10:32, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Thu, 10 Aug 2023 11:12:05 +0100
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 10/08/2023 06:41, 23k.304 wrote:
    No such thing as "read only" with SD/Flash tech.
      Even reading them means re-writing them. Really !

    I believe that to be completely wrong.

    Nope - but it's not quite as it sounds for details see this patent:

    https://patents.google.com/patent/EP2077559A2/en

    TL;DR reading does degrade the storage in flash memory which means
    it needs to be rewritten before it degrades too much, which takes thousands to millions of reads depending on the type of cell.


    Yes, that is what I found, also. Essentially a read is between ten and
    a thousand times less destructive than a write.

    But in the context of a PI running Raspios or other Linux, with adequate
    RAM, 99.99% of reads will be from cache, not the card, anyway. So you
    can safely ignore this theoretical issue

    Obviously if you are building a busy NAS device, where such conditions
    do not apply, you would not be using an SD card anyway.


    --
    "Women actually are capable of being far more than the feminists will
    let them."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Fri Aug 11 13:20:00 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On Fri, 11 Aug 2023 12:21:01 +0100
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    Yes, that is what I found, also. Essentially a read is between ten and
    a thousand times less destructive than a write.

    But in the context of a PI running Raspios or other Linux, with adequate
    RAM, 99.99% of reads will be from cache, not the card, anyway. So you
    can safely ignore this theoretical issue

    You pretty much have to ignore it anyway it's all internal to the device where you have no access to change anything.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Rich@3:770/3 to 23k304@bfxw9.net on Fri Aug 11 14:13:24 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    In comp.os.linux.misc 23k.304 <23k304@bfxw9.net> wrote:
    On 8/10/23 3:13 PM, Rich wrote:
    In comp.os.linux.misc The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote: >>> On 10/08/2023 06:41, 23k.304 wrote:
    No such thing as "read only" with SD/Flash tech.
      Even reading them means re-writing them. Really !

    I believe that to be completely wrong.

    It is, at least as a general statement in regards to flash memory.
    There may be /some/ flash "drives" (used generically to refer to SD and
    SATA disks) where if the controller detects an issue with the read, it
    may decide to reallocate the data to another set of flash cells.

    And unless you can provide some sort of evidence to back up that
    assertion, I have to say I consider it utter bollocks

    Consider the source....

    I suspect he has mixed up flash technology with DRAM technology, where
    reading a row from DRAM

    "Flash" is a "smart device". It has a controller.
    One function is "wear-leveling", but another is
    "rewrite on read". YOU never see this stuff.

    More utter bollocks from the nymshifting troll.

    DRAM's rewrite on reads - flash does not.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Rich@3:770/3 to 23k304@bfxw9.net on Fri Aug 11 14:16:12 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    In comp.os.linux.misc 23k.304 <23k304@bfxw9.net> wrote:
    On 8/10/23 6:12 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 10/08/2023 06:41, 23k.304 wrote:
    No such thing as "read only" with SD/Flash tech.
       Even reading them means re-writing them. Really !

    I believe that to be completely wrong.

    Look it up. I don't have time to do all your research.

    YOU don't do the re-write, the logic for that
    it is built into the flash device, hidden in the
    background.

    Reading kinda blanks what's there, and then it has to be re-writ.

    That's the DRAM read cycle, not the flash read cycle.

    And unless you can provide some sort of evidence to back up that
    assertion, I have to say I consider it utter bollocks

    Well, have fun with the bollocks ...

    I was there long before any of this tech was
    invented, learned the good AND bad. A lot of
    the bad has been *disappeared* of late ...

    And so far, across about 20 different nymshifts, you've spouted by far
    more incorrect bullshit than correct information (that and significant irrelivant Abe Simpson like 'asides').

    "Flash" is not just some dumb memory chip despite
    how it tries to present itself to the user, it
    has a CONTROLLER. One function is "wear-leveling"
    but another underlying function is the "re-write
    on read" aspect.

    Flash does not rewrite on read -- DRAM does, but not flash.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Rich@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Fri Aug 11 14:20:26 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    In comp.os.linux.misc Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
    On Thu, 10 Aug 2023 11:12:05 +0100
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 10/08/2023 06:41, 23k.304 wrote:
    No such thing as "read only" with SD/Flash tech.
      Even reading them means re-writing them. Really !

    I believe that to be completely wrong.

    Nope - but it's not quite as it sounds for details see this
    patent:

    https://patents.google.com/patent/EP2077559A2/en

    TL;DR reading does degrade the storage in flash memory which
    means it needs to be rewritten before it degrades too much, which
    takes thousands to millions of reads depending on the type of cell.

    This patent is describing what TNP posted in his other thread about "disturbing" adjacent cells:

    Quoting from early in the description:

    The read disturb error is such a phenomenon that, when data on a
    certain page of a certain physical block are read out frequently, data
    being stored in a cell on other pages of the data read block are
    changed.

    And a little further on they detail the number of reads necessary to
    trigger the refreshing rewrite:

    For example, among currently available products, the single-level
    cell (SLC) type has the limit of the number of data read of 100,000
    to 1,000,000 times and the multi-level cell (MLC) type has the
    limit of the number of data read of 10,000 to 100,000 times
    (generally, these limits tend to be lowered as the data reading
    frequency is increased).

    However the nymshift troll is presenting its false argument as "all
    reads cause a rewrite".

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Fri Aug 11 16:10:20 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 11/08/2023 13:20, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Fri, 11 Aug 2023 12:21:01 +0100
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    Yes, that is what I found, also. Essentially a read is between ten and
    a thousand times less destructive than a write.

    But in the context of a PI running Raspios or other Linux, with adequate
    RAM, 99.99% of reads will be from cache, not the card, anyway. So you
    can safely ignore this theoretical issue

    You pretty much have to ignore it anyway it's all internal to the device where you have no access to change anything.

    Well not exactly, the argument was about minimising reads as well as
    writes to minimise wear.

    My point was to get back from armchair theorising to practicalities. In practice the disk cache reduces regular reads issues to the card, to zero.


    --
    "Corbyn talks about equality, justice, opportunity, health care, peace, community, compassion, investment, security, housing...."
    "What kind of person is not interested in those things?"

    "Jeremy Corbyn?"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Rich on Fri Aug 11 16:11:08 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 11/08/2023 15:13, Rich wrote:
    In comp.os.linux.misc 23k.304 <23k304@bfxw9.net> wrote:
    On 8/10/23 3:13 PM, Rich wrote:
    In comp.os.linux.misc The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote: >>>> On 10/08/2023 06:41, 23k.304 wrote:
    No such thing as "read only" with SD/Flash tech.
      Even reading them means re-writing them. Really !

    I believe that to be completely wrong.

    It is, at least as a general statement in regards to flash memory.
    There may be /some/ flash "drives" (used generically to refer to SD and
    SATA disks) where if the controller detects an issue with the read, it
    may decide to reallocate the data to another set of flash cells.

    And unless you can provide some sort of evidence to back up that
    assertion, I have to say I consider it utter bollocks

    Consider the source....

    I suspect he has mixed up flash technology with DRAM technology, where
    reading a row from DRAM

    "Flash" is a "smart device". It has a controller.
    One function is "wear-leveling", but another is
    "rewrite on read". YOU never see this stuff.

    More utter bollocks from the nymshifting troll.

    DRAM's rewrite on reads - flash does not.

    That sounds about right to me.


    --
    "Corbyn talks about equality, justice, opportunity, health care, peace, community, compassion, investment, security, housing...."
    "What kind of person is not interested in those things?"

    "Jeremy Corbyn?"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Fri Aug 11 17:18:54 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On Fri, 11 Aug 2023 16:10:20 +0100
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 11/08/2023 13:20, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Fri, 11 Aug 2023 12:21:01 +0100
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    Yes, that is what I found, also. Essentially a read is between ten
    and a thousand times less destructive than a write.

    But in the context of a PI running Raspios or other Linux, with
    adequate RAM, 99.99% of reads will be from cache, not the card,
    anyway. So you can safely ignore this theoretical issue

    You pretty much have to ignore it anyway it's all internal to
    the device where you have no access to change anything.

    Well not exactly, the argument was about minimising reads as well as
    writes to minimise wear.

    Yeah that was silly.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

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  • From Rich@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Fri Aug 11 18:07:12 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    In comp.os.linux.misc The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 11/08/2023 13:20, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Fri, 11 Aug 2023 12:21:01 +0100
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    Yes, that is what I found, also. Essentially a read is between ten
    and a thousand times less destructive than a write.

    But in the context of a PI running Raspios or other Linux, with
    adequate RAM, 99.99% of reads will be from cache, not the card,
    anyway. So you can safely ignore this theoretical issue

    You pretty much have to ignore it anyway it's all internal to
    the device where you have no access to change anything.

    Well not exactly, the argument was about minimising reads as well as
    writes to minimise wear.

    My point was to get back from armchair theorising to practicalities.
    In practice the disk cache reduces regular reads issues to the card,
    to zero.

    For what you've described as your use cases for the PI's, yes, the
    Linux disk cache should minimize the number of reads that hit the SD
    card. That is once it has booted and reached its normal operational
    steady state.

    You should end up seeing very close to zero reads and writes to the PI
    sd cards given what you've described to us. Certianly a low enough
    rate that even a less than stellar card should last for quite a long
    time.

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  • From 23k.304@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Sat Aug 12 01:05:00 2023
    XPost: comp.os.linux.misc

    On 8/7/23 9:55 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 07/08/2023 12:55, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    No Empire Has Lasted Yet in history, US is way over the hill.
    Likely Texas will soon leave that Union... the others will follow.
    Yes, these 19th century Empires are a bit passé..the end of Russian federation, the European Union, the United states - all are possible and more, or less likely as time moves on.

    In an unlikely turn of phrase, in rapidly changing world contexts, they
    are simply  too big to survive.

    What suits downtown New York does not suit wilderness Utah. And vice versa.

    federalisation at least and possible independence, whilst maintaining
    overall ties under some NATO and Interpol style pan national
    organisations would seem to be the way forward

    First off, NO state will be leaving the USA - it's
    actually illegal, they can and will send in the army.
    Bet on it.

    As for "differences" ... that was part of the whole
    idea of a United STATES. Not every environment, every
    local culture, every local need, is the same. Truly
    "national" govts like to forget that - and it causes
    BIG problems. Can even cause bloody revolutions where
    everyone suffers horribly.

    As for "empires" - there's a FALLACY to "empire" in
    the usual meaning. They only survive by engulfing
    more and more - and every bit they obtain soon
    becomes a management EXPENSE. It's doomed. From
    Sumer and Akkadia all the way to Rome and the
    Mongols and Ottomans, this has been the horrible
    horrible truth of "empires". They are about EGO,
    not fiscal reality.

    But then this was SUPPOSED to be about what to do
    with /var/log :-)

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  • From Bob Latham@3:770/3 to druck on Fri Oct 13 11:00:30 2023
    In article <ua960d$3chlq$1@dont-email.me>,
    druck <news@druck.org.uk> wrote:

    Secondly stop systemd spamming /var/log/syslog with all sorts of
    crap you have no interest in. Create a file called /etc/rsyslog.d/drop.systemd.conf containing

    # Drop messages from f***ing systemd
    :programname,startswith,"systemd" stop

    The latest bookworm release (32 bit lite) October 10th 2023 does not
    seem to have the directory

    /etc/rsyslog.d

    and so I created it and copied drop.systemd.conf into it. Is that the
    right thing to do ?

    Bob.

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