• =?UTF-8?Q?Suche_USV_f=c3=bcr_einen_RPi4?=

    From Hans-Werner Kneitinger@3:770/3 to All on Mon Dec 19 07:02:50 2022
    Hallo zusammen,

    ich betreiben einen RPi4b mit 4GB, einer 120GB M1 SSD über USB
    (bootbar), Buster und Kernel 5.4.72-v7l+ (SMP) armv7l.

    Jetzt hatte ich schon 2 Stromausfälle in diesem Jahr und jedes mal war
    das FS defekt. /boot ist vfat und /root ist ext4. OK, es konnte
    repariert werden, funktionierte nur nicht automatisch.

    Meine Idee ist es nun, den Pi mit einer USV auszurüsten. Mein Interesse
    hat der StromPi3 geweckt, habe aber noch ein paar fragen dazu. Eventuell
    hat ja jemand von hier ein paar Antworten.

    a) Kennt jemand eine Alternative?

    b) Auf der Internetseite zum StromPi3 sieht es so aus, als wenn der
    Strom-Pi nur über eine GUI konfiguriert werden kann. Bei mir läuft aber
    kein Desktop. Kann ich den StromPi3 auch über das Terminal im
    Fernzugriff konfigurieren?

    c) So wie ich die Anleitung lese, kann der StromPi den Rpi runter
    fahren. Das geht aber wohl nur zeitgesteuert und nicht in Abhängigkeit
    des Akku Ladezustands. Kann das jemand bestätigen oder kennt eine Lösung
    das in Abhängigkeit der Akkuspannung zu machen?

    d) Der zugehörige Akkt hat eine Kapazität von 1000 bzw. 2000mAh. Kann
    mir jemand sagen, wie lange der RPi damit betrieben werden kann?

    Danke und schöne Feiertage
    hawe

    --
    cu
    hawe

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  • From Jan Panteltje@3:770/3 to Kneitinger on Mon Dec 19 07:17:06 2022
    On a sunny day (Mon, 19 Dec 2022 07:02:50 +0100) it happened Hans-Werner Kneitinger <hans-werner.kneitinger@gmx.de> wrote in <tnouqa$78ad$1@dont-email.me>:

    Hallo zusammen,

    ich betreiben einen RPi4b mit 4GB, einer 120GB M1 SSD über USB
    (bootbar), Buster und Kernel 5.4.72-v7l+ (SMP) armv7l.

    Jetzt hatte ich schon 2 Stromausfälle in diesem Jahr und jedes mal war
    das FS defekt. /boot ist vfat und /root ist ext4. OK, es konnte
    repariert werden, funktionierte nur nicht automatisch.

    Meine Idee ist es nun, den Pi mit einer USV auszurüsten. Mein Interesse
    hat der StromPi3 geweckt, habe aber noch ein paar fragen dazu. Eventuell
    hat ja jemand von hier ein paar Antworten.

    a) Kennt jemand eine Alternative?

    b) Auf der Internetseite zum StromPi3 sieht es so aus, als wenn der
    Strom-Pi nur über eine GUI konfiguriert werden kann. Bei mir läuft aber >kein Desktop. Kann ich den StromPi3 auch über das Terminal im
    Fernzugriff konfigurieren?

    c) So wie ich die Anleitung lese, kann der StromPi den Rpi runter
    fahren. Das geht aber wohl nur zeitgesteuert und nicht in Abhängigkeit
    des Akku Ladezustands. Kann das jemand bestätigen oder kennt eine Lösung >das in Abhängigkeit der Akkuspannung zu machen?

    d) Der zugehörige Akkt hat eine Kapazität von 1000 bzw. 2000mAh. Kann
    mir jemand sagen, wie lange der RPi damit betrieben werden kann?

    Danke und schöne Feiertage
    hawe

    All my 24/7 on Pis including USB hubs and hardidsks run on a UPS.

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  • From Hans-Werner Kneitinger@3:770/3 to All on Mon Dec 19 09:15:00 2022
    Hello, everyone,

    I run an RPI4B with 4GB, a 120GB M1 SSD via USB (bootbar), Buster and
    Kernel 5.4.72-V7L+ (SMP) ARMV7L.

    Now I already had 2 power failures this year and every time the FS was defective. /Boot is VFAT and /ROOT is ext4. Ok, it could be repaired,
    just didn't work automatically.

    My idea is now to equip the PI with a UPS. The StromPi3 sparked my
    interest, but I have a few more questions about it. Maybe someone from
    here has a few answers.

    a) Does anyone know an alternative?

    b) On the website to the StromPi3, it looks as if the electricity PI can
    only be configured via a GUI. But I don't run a desktop. Can I also
    configure the StromPi3 using the terminal in remote access?

    c) As I read the instructions, the StromPi can drive down the RPI. But
    that is probably only time -controlled and not depending on the battery
    of the charge. Can someone confirm this or knows a solution that is
    depending on the battery voltage?

    d) The associated accommodation has a capacity of 1000 or 2000mAh. Can
    someone tell me how long the RPI can be operated?

    Thanks and nice holidays
    hawe

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  • From Hans-Werner Kneitinger@3:770/3 to All on Mon Dec 19 09:22:34 2022
    Am 19.12.22 um 08:17 schrieb Jan Panteltje:

    All my 24/7 on Pis including USB hubs and hardidsks run on a UPS.

    Would you like to tell me which one you use?
    Is it a regular UPS or a HAT for the Pi?

    --
    cu
    hawe

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  • From Kees Nuyt@3:770/3 to hans-werner.kneitinger@gmx.de on Mon Dec 19 10:41:40 2022
    On Mon, 19 Dec 2022 09:15:01 +0100, Hans-Werner Kneitinger <hans-werner.kneitinger@gmx.de> wrote:

    Hello, everyone,

    I run an RPI4B with 4GB, a 120GB M1 SSD via USB (bootbar), Buster and
    Kernel 5.4.72-V7L+ (SMP) ARMV7L.

    [...]

    a) Does anyone know an alternative?


    In April 2021, I bought this:

    Power Supply UPS Module HAT Kit for
    RPI Raspberry Pi 3 Model B Plus 4 B+...
    SKU: Plug Type: EU Plug Total: US $25,99 Objectnumber:
    383857720953 Seller: stemdiy(43)
    You have to put in two unprotected 18650 cells in it.
    That worked well for just over a year for short power
    interruptions. But when I forgot to plug it in, it ran the
    batteries down well below the safe limit and ruimned them (can't
    be charged anymore, not even manually, from a lab power supply).
    So I suspect the charge circuit is good, but the discharge level
    is not controlled. So you should only use it with protected
    cells.

    b) On the website to the StromPi3, it looks as if the electricity PI can
    only be configured via a GUI. But I don't run a desktop. Can I also
    configure the StromPi3 using the terminal in remote access?

    That doesn't ring a bell. For the HAT above, I could download
    software from github (IIRC). All CLI stuff, mostly a Python
    module and a Python example main program.

    c) As I read the instructions, the StromPi can drive down the RPI. But
    that is probably only time -controlled and not depending on the battery
    of the charge. Can someone confirm this or knows a solution that is
    depending on the battery voltage?

    The software for the HAT above monitors voltage and current, it
    is not hard to write a program that shuts the Pi down when the
    battery level gets too low. I did that, but that failed to
    protect the batteries.
    I think shutting down does not reduce the consumption to zero,
    so the batteries keep discharging.

    d) The associated accommodation has a capacity of 1000 or 2000mAh. Can someone tell me how long the RPI can be operated?

    That depends a lot on the consumption of peripherals and the
    processor load. When idle, a Pi 4 with some USB and wired
    Ethernet draws just over 1000 mA, so 2000 mAh would last almost
    two hours. Long enough for 95% of power outages in W Europe, I
    would say.

    --
    HTH
    Kees Nuyt

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  • From David Taylor@3:770/3 to Hans-Werner Kneitinger on Mon Dec 19 09:33:08 2022
    On 19/12/2022 08:15, Hans-Werner Kneitinger wrote:
    a) Does anyone know an alternative?

    One suggestion, Hawe, for a UPS are the so-called "Power Banks". There's no interaction with the RPi, it's just a source of 5V power, but some of those devices will deliver a continuous 5V when the "mains" power is removed. So you would have:

    Wall socket => Power Bank => Raspberry Pi

    Perhaps someone can recommend a suitable device - the one I have is long out of production? This might give a few hours, depending on the load.

    --
    Cheers,
    David
    Web: https://www.satsignal.eu

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  • From bob prohaska@3:770/3 to David Taylor on Tue Dec 20 02:05:14 2022
    David Taylor <david-taylor@blueyonder.co.uk.invalid> wrote:
    On 19/12/2022 08:15, Hans-Werner Kneitinger wrote:
    a) Does anyone know an alternative?

    One suggestion, Hawe, for a UPS are the so-called "Power Banks". There's no interaction with the RPi, it's just a source of 5V power, but some of those devices will deliver a continuous 5V when the "mains" power is removed. So you
    would have:

    Wall socket => Power Bank => Raspberry Pi

    Perhaps someone can recommend a suitable device - the one I have is long out of
    production? This might give a few hours, depending on the load.


    If all you want to back up is a single Pi, no.

    If you want to back up a cluster of devices (modem, router, etc)
    it might be worth looking at a standard inverter/charger of the kind
    used on boats and RVs. At 120 volts there's a ~250$ one from
    Ampinvt available on Amazon. The unit includes a transfer switch, inverter, battery charger and control logic. You connect a standard 12 volt battery
    and plug your mains power supplies in to the inverter charger.

    This is just a dumb UPS setup, but a 100AH battery (~300$ for LiFePO4)
    will keep a 50 watt load running for about a day. It'll allow you to
    plug in more if needed. It's a lot more expensive than the StromPi3
    but also more versatile. Pulling the mains plug while the system
    is running my refrigerator and a Pi4 with monitor results in a seamless transfer to battery with no disturbance to the Pi4.

    I have two such setups, one for computers/network and one for the
    kitchen refrigerator. I can't really endorse Ampinvt's tech support
    but the devices are useful and relatively cheap.

    Not sure what's available at 220 volt, that might be a problem.

    HTH,

    bob prohaska

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  • From Jan Panteltje@3:770/3 to Kneitinger on Tue Dec 20 05:46:48 2022
    On a sunny day (Mon, 19 Dec 2022 09:22:35 +0100) it happened Hans-Werner Kneitinger <hans-werner.kneitinger@gmx.de> wrote in <tnp70b$7q6f$1@dont-email.me>:

    Am 19.12.22 um 08:17 schrieb Jan Panteltje:

    All my 24/7 on Pis including USB hubs and hardidsks run on a UPS.

    Would you like to tell me which one you use?
    Is it a regular UPS or a HAT for the Pi?

    It is a
    APC_UPS_700VA

    That one is no longer made (bought it in 2019)
    It also runs a PC sometimes, as well as some other electronics I have:
    http://panteltje.com/pub/APC_UPS_ES700_waveform_25W_edison_bulb_load_IMG_0270.JPG

    It does what it should do, almost every day here there are short (maybe less than one second)
    mains interruptions when the power company switches something.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Hans-Werner Kneitinger@3:770/3 to All on Tue Dec 20 06:51:28 2022
    Am 20.12.22 um 06:46 schrieb Jan Panteltje:
    On a sunny day (Mon, 19 Dec 2022 09:22:35 +0100) it happened Hans-Werner Kneitinger <hans-werner.kneitinger@gmx.de> wrote in <tnp70b$7q6f$1@dont-email.me>:

    Am 19.12.22 um 08:17 schrieb Jan Panteltje:

    All my 24/7 on Pis including USB hubs and hardidsks run on a UPS.

    Would you like to tell me which one you use?
    Is it a regular UPS or a HAT for the Pi?

    It is a
    APC_UPS_700VA

    Thank you for answer

    --
    cu
    hawe

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Hans-Werner Kneitinger@3:770/3 to All on Tue Dec 20 06:40:40 2022
    Am 19.12.22 um 10:33 schrieb David Taylor:
    On 19/12/2022 08:15, Hans-Werner Kneitinger wrote:
    a) Does anyone know an alternative?

    Perhaps someone can recommend a suitable device - the one I have is long
    out of production?  This might give a few hours, depending on the load.

    Thank you for your answer and suggestion. It is a very easy solution.
    Will have a look, but it seems it is hard to find a powerbank with pass through. One thing I'm missing - save shutdown.

    --
    cu
    hawe

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Hans-Werner Kneitinger@3:770/3 to All on Tue Dec 20 06:59:06 2022
    Am 19.12.22 um 10:41 schrieb Kees Nuyt:

    Power Supply UPS Module HAT Kit for
    RPI Raspberry Pi 3 Model B Plus 4 B+...
    SKU: Plug Type: EU Plug Total: US $25,99 Objectnumber:
    383857720953 Seller: stemdiy(43)

    Thank you for answer and suggestion. Stemdiy did not sell to Germany,
    but that's no problem. I found other solution based on what you wrote.
    Geekworm seems to have a lot of fine solutions. So I have to think about it.

    --
    cu
    hawe

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  • From Stephan Elinghaus@3:770/3 to All on Tue Dec 20 09:03:50 2022
    Am 2022-12-19 hat Hans-Werner Kneitinger geschrieben:
    c) So wie ich die Anleitung lese, kann der StromPi den Rpi runter
    fahren. Das geht aber wohl nur zeitgesteuert und nicht in Abhängigkeit
    des Akku Ladezustands. Kann das jemand bestätigen oder kennt eine Lösung das in Abhängigkeit der Akkuspannung zu machen?

    Ja, das stimmt, geht nur nach Zeit.
    Aber Du kannst Dir für das Geld (StromPi + Akku) schon fast eine
    richtige USV anschaffen. Das muß ja keine mit mehreren kW Leistung
    sein, da reicht eine kleine die aussieht wie eine etwas dickere Steckdosenleiste.
    Die hat den Vorteil, daß auch andere Geräte überbrückt werden, beispielsweise ein Switch oder Peripherie, die am Raspi hängt. Die
    meisten USVs haben eine Schnittstelle, über die sie ihren Zustand
    preisgeben. Die läßt sich mit dem Raspi verbinden und Du hast eine
    Lösung, die Du nach eigenem Ermessen konfigurieren kannst.

    Abseits davon:
    Wenn Du Akkuspannungsgesteuert runterfahren willst würde mir als erstes
    ein AD-Wandler einfallen, den man alle paar Sekunden nach der Akku-
    spannung fragen kann (max. 3.3V-Pegel der Raspi-Eingänge beachten!).
    Sinkt der Wert unter eine gewisse Schwelle -> "shutdown -h now".
    Dürfte mit ein paar Zeilen Python erledigt sein.
    Aber vermutlich gibt's auch hier fertige Lösungen, ich kann Dir leider
    mangels Kenntnis gerade keine nennen.

    --
    [out of signatures error]

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  • From David Taylor@3:770/3 to Hans-Werner Kneitinger on Tue Dec 20 10:21:18 2022
    On 20/12/2022 05:40, Hans-Werner Kneitinger wrote:
    Thank you for your answer and suggestion. It is a very easy solution.
    Will have a look, but it seems it is hard to find a powerbank with pass through. One thing I'm missing - save shutdown.

    Yes, Hawe, if save on shutdown matters you need something better.

    Cheers.
    David
    --
    Cheers,
    David
    Web: https://www.satsignal.eu

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    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Hans-Werner Kneitinger@3:770/3 to All on Tue Dec 20 14:21:42 2022
    Thanks to all for replies. It is much more clear what to do.

    happy holidays
    hawe

    --
    cu
    hawe

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  • From Martin Gregorie@3:770/3 to bob prohaska on Tue Dec 20 15:23:12 2022
    On Tue, 20 Dec 2022 02:05:15 -0000 (UTC), bob prohaska wrote:

    David Taylor <david-taylor@blueyonder.co.uk.invalid> wrote:
    On 19/12/2022 08:15, Hans-Werner Kneitinger wrote:
    a) Does anyone know an alternative?

    One suggestion, Hawe, for a UPS are the so-called "Power Banks".
    There's no interaction with the RPi, it's just a source of 5V power,
    but some of those devices will deliver a continuous 5V when the "mains"
    power is removed. So you would have:

    Wall socket => Power Bank => Raspberry Pi

    Perhaps someone can recommend a suitable device - the one I have is
    long out of production? This might give a few hours, depending on the
    load.


    If all you want to back up is a single Pi, no.

    If you want to back up a cluster of devices (modem, router, etc)
    it might be worth looking at a standard inverter/charger of the kind
    used on boats and RVs. At 120 volts there's a ~250$ one from Ampinvt available on Amazon. The unit includes a transfer switch, inverter,
    battery charger and control logic. You connect a standard 12 volt
    battery and plug your mains power supplies in to the inverter charger.

    This is just a dumb UPS setup, but a 100AH battery (~300$ for LiFePO4)
    will keep a 50 watt load running for about a day. It'll allow you to
    plug in more if needed. It's a lot more expensive than the StromPi3 but
    also more versatile. Pulling the mains plug while the system is running
    my refrigerator and a Pi4 with monitor results in a seamless transfer to battery with no disturbance to the Pi4.

    I have two such setups, one for computers/network and one for the
    kitchen refrigerator. I can't really endorse Ampinvt's tech support but
    the devices are useful and relatively cheap.

    Not sure what's available at 220 volt, that might be a problem.

    I've been using a Riello UPS to power my house server and local LAN since
    2014.

    It uses a pair of 12v, 7.2 AH SLA batteries as its backup and can be run
    either with the batteries continuously in circuit or with them out of
    circuit but ready to switch in instantaneously if the mains drops. I've
    tried both modes: both work well, but its quieter with the batteries on
    standby (batteries continuously in circuit has the charging circuit and
    its fan running continuously). It has four mains outlet sockets, so can
    run a server, its display, and a network switch or two without and messing about with mains extensions or towers of plugs.

    Its batteries got replaced last year, i.e. they lasted 8 years of
    continuous use in-circuit.

    The UPS batteries will run my house server for 50 minutes, but I have the
    UPS configured to tell the house server to shut down after 10 minutes of
    no mains power because over here mains outages are generally less than a second, i.e. just long enough to dump a PC, except occasionally when mains power can be out for hours: having drained batteries still connected to a
    load is a good way to destroy them.

    This setup is installed in the UK, so it is on 240v mains.

    Riello UPSs aren't exactly cheap: but I'm happy I bought mine: it is about
    the same size and price as the server it provides power for and does
    exactly what I bought it to do.

    NOTE: The small, cheap UPSs meant to power a single desktop PC are, IMO
    useless because they don't have the ability to tell a PC to shut down
    cleanly after a preset time or when the UPS battery is drained.






    --

    Martin | martin at
    Gregorie | gregorie dot org

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  • From bob prohaska@3:770/3 to Martin Gregorie on Tue Dec 20 20:27:22 2022
    Martin Gregorie <martin@mydomain.invalid> wrote:

    I've been using a Riello UPS to power my house server and local LAN since 2014.

    It uses a pair of 12v, 7.2 AH SLA batteries as its backup and can be run

    For small(ish) loads that sounds good. I had hopes of running my fridge,
    and wanted to "borrow" an automotive battery for testing purposes, as
    I didn't have a great deal of faith in the cheapest inverter charger
    on Amazon. The first unit purchased worked exceedingly well, but it
    quickly became apparent that a lead-acid battery, even though it was
    deep cycle, didn't perform very well. LiFePO4 is considerably better
    in terms of voltage sag and recharge rate.

    The second inverter/charger purchased works correctly but seems prone
    to subtle instability in charging behavior and overload warning. That
    makes me hesitant to recommend it, though I've kept the second unit in
    service and have so far (6 months) observed no disqualifying behavior.
    Indeed, for the price it looks hard to beat.

    [snip]

    UPS configured to tell the house server to shut down after 10 minutes of
    no mains power because over here mains outages are generally less than a second, i.e. just long enough to dump a PC, except occasionally when mains power can be out for hours:

    Outages here are usually caused by trees, which makes restoration slower.
    A half-day is fast, overnight more typical.

    This setup is installed in the UK, so it is on 240v mains.


    Understood, I'll admit I couldn't find any comparably cheap 220/240
    volt inverter chargers, at least not in the US on Amazon. The 220/240
    units on offer are typically over $500, which diminishes the appeal.

    Riello UPSs aren't exactly cheap: but I'm happy I bought mine: it is about the same size and price as the server it provides power for and does
    exactly what I bought it to do.

    NOTE: The small, cheap UPSs meant to power a single desktop PC are, IMO useless because they don't have the ability to tell a PC to shut down
    cleanly after a preset time or when the UPS battery is drained.

    To my way of thinking it's simpler and easier to just give the UPS
    enough endurance so that most outages can be ignored for at least
    a few hours or overnight. For small loads it isn't expensive compared
    to the equipment being backed up.

    Thanks for reading,

    bob prohaska

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  • From Pancho@3:770/3 to David Taylor on Tue Dec 20 21:34:46 2022
    On 20/12/2022 10:21, David Taylor wrote:
    On 20/12/2022 05:40, Hans-Werner Kneitinger wrote:
    Thank you for your answer and suggestion. It is a very easy solution.
    Will have a look, but it seems it is hard to find a powerbank with pass
    through. One thing I'm missing - save shutdown.

    Yes, Hawe, if save on shutdown matters you need something better.


    A powerbank seems like a good idea, worth a test.

    Save/shutdown could be initiated by a shell script monitoring "low
    voltage", from the powerbank. Or possibly using a failing heartbeat
    (ping) to another device which is connected to the same power socket,
    but without the intermediate powerbank, e.g. a router.

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  • From Martin Gregorie@3:770/3 to bob prohaska on Tue Dec 20 22:28:38 2022
    On Tue, 20 Dec 2022 20:27:23 -0000 (UTC), bob prohaska wrote:

    Martin Gregorie <martin@mydomain.invalid> wrote:

    I've been using a Riello UPS to power my house server and local LAN
    since 2014.

    It uses a pair of 12v, 7.2 AH SLA batteries as its backup and can be
    run

    For small(ish) loads that sounds good. I had hopes of running my fridge,
    and wanted to "borrow" an automotive battery for testing purposes, as I didn't have a great deal of faith in the cheapest inverter charger on
    Amazon. The first unit purchased worked exceedingly well, but it quickly became apparent that a lead-acid battery, even though it was deep cycle, didn't perform very well. LiFePO4 is considerably better in terms of
    voltage sag and recharge rate.

    The OP only wants to run a Pi4 (but doesn't say how much power the stuff controlled by it uses, but it looks like thats just an SSD, so probably
    one of the Pi HAT UPS boards would do the trick, with an SLA as a backup
    would fit his requirement.

    The second inverter/charger purchased works correctly but seems prone to subtle instability in charging behavior and overload warning. That makes
    me hesitant to recommend it, though I've kept the second unit in service
    and have so far (6 months) observed no disqualifying behavior. Indeed,
    for the price it looks hard to beat.

    Outages here are usually caused by trees, which makes restoration
    slower.> A half-day is fast, overnight more typical.

    This setup is installed in the UK, so it is on 240v mains.

    Understood. In most of the UK the falling tree problem is a non-issue
    because both power and phone lines tend to be in roadside trenches, specifically to avoid the falling tree problem: the 1987 storm accelerated
    the process of putting mains cables underground.

    I originally bought the UPS when my (in-town) supply developed the habit
    of having sub-second power glitches - needless to say that problem was
    fixed about the time my UPS was unstalled.


    Understood, I'll admit I couldn't find any comparably cheap 220/240 volt inverter chargers, at least not in the US on Amazon. The 220/240 units
    on offer are typically over $500, which diminishes the appeal.

    Understood, but IMO anyway the UPS capability to tell the the system its powering to shut down cleanly if the UPS battery is depleted is well worth paying a bit extra for, particularly if your UPS power requirements and on-battery runtimes are long enough to sorta/somehow justify installing a
    small IC generator and configuring the UPS to tell your server to power up
    the generator and going back y sleep once that's running.

    After all, a few litres of petrol or diesel fuel is a lot cheaper than the equivalent amount of battery capacity.


    --

    Martin | martin at
    Gregorie | gregorie dot org

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From bob prohaska@3:770/3 to Martin Gregorie on Wed Dec 21 04:23:34 2022
    Martin Gregorie <martin@mydomain.invalid> wrote:
    The OP only wants to run a Pi4 (but doesn't say how much power the stuff controlled by it uses, but it looks like thats just an SSD, so probably
    one of the Pi HAT UPS boards would do the trick, with an SLA as a backup would fit his requirement.


    Indeed, it seems he only wanted to avoid corrupting the filesystem
    via an ungraceful shutdown or perhaps an interrupted restart. To
    that end it might suffice to just keep the system from restarting
    immediately to let the power settle down.


    I originally bought the UPS when my (in-town) supply developed the habit
    of having sub-second power glitches - needless to say that problem was
    fixed about the time my UPS was unstalled.

    8-)

    Understood, but IMO anyway the UPS capability to tell the the system its powering to shut down cleanly if the UPS battery is depleted is well worth paying a bit extra for, particularly if your UPS power requirements and on-battery runtimes are long enough to sorta/somehow justify installing a small IC generator and configuring the UPS to tell your server to power up the generator and going back y sleep once that's running.


    Whether one wants to maintain service or simply avoid damage makes a big difference. For the OP, who just wants to avoid damage, a manual restart
    device might be sufficient.

    After all, a few litres of petrol or diesel fuel is a lot cheaper than the equivalent amount of battery capacity.

    Fuel consuption on small generators is surprisingly high, around
    .1 gph per kW (capacity plus load). The smallest domestically
    useful generator (~2kW) will burn close to a litre per hour.

    I started with a generator and gradually realized that a UPS is
    much more useful. A generator is necessarily intermittent and
    truly useful only if the UPS grants at least a few hours' operation,
    for example while waiting to see if the power will come back on.

    To some extent I'm suggesting the OP's original goal is likely to
    be incomplete: it's simpler ( not cheaper) to back up the entire
    connected system rather than protect a single element and let the
    rest go down. To that end, endurance is a useful feature.

    Thanks for reading!

    bob prohaska

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  • From Jan Panteltje@3:770/3 to prohaska on Wed Dec 21 05:54:46 2022
    On a sunny day (Tue, 20 Dec 2022 20:27:23 -0000 (UTC)) it happened bob
    prohaska <bp@www.zefox.net> wrote in <tnt5ra$pfcb$1@dont-email.me>:

    Martin Gregorie <martin@mydomain.invalid> wrote:

    I've been using a Riello UPS to power my house server and local LAN since
    2014.

    It uses a pair of 12v, 7.2 AH SLA batteries as its backup and can be run

    For small(ish) loads that sounds good. I had hopes of running my fridge,
    and wanted to "borrow" an automotive battery for testing purposes, as
    I didn't have a great deal of faith in the cheapest inverter charger
    on Amazon. The first unit purchased worked exceedingly well, but it
    quickly became apparent that a lead-acid battery, even though it was
    deep cycle, didn't perform very well. LiFePO4 is considerably better
    in terms of voltage sag and recharge rate.

    The second inverter/charger purchased works correctly but seems prone
    to subtle instability in charging behavior and overload warning. That
    makes me hesitant to recommend it, though I've kept the second unit in >service and have so far (6 months) observed no disqualifying behavior. >Indeed, for the price it looks hard to beat.

    [snip]

    UPS configured to tell the house server to shut down after 10 minutes of
    no mains power because over here mains outages are generally less than a
    second, i.e. just long enough to dump a PC, except occasionally when mains >> power can be out for hours:

    Outages here are usually caused by trees, which makes restoration slower.
    A half-day is fast, overnight more typical.

    This setup is installed in the UK, so it is on 240v mains.


    Understood, I'll admit I couldn't find any comparably cheap 220/240
    volt inverter chargers, at least not in the US on Amazon. The 220/240
    units on offer are typically over $500, which diminishes the appeal.

    Riello UPSs aren't exactly cheap: but I'm happy I bought mine: it is about >> the same size and price as the server it provides power for and does
    exactly what I bought it to do.

    NOTE: The small, cheap UPSs meant to power a single desktop PC are, IMO
    useless because they don't have the ability to tell a PC to shut down
    cleanly after a preset time or when the UPS battery is drained.

    To my way of thinking it's simpler and easier to just give the UPS
    enough endurance so that most outages can be ignored for at least
    a few hours or overnight. For small loads it isn't expensive compared
    to the equipment being backed up.

    For long outages I have a 250 Ah lifpo4 batery pack and a 2 kW pure sinewave converter
    it will run TV and fridge for hours, even allows you to use the microwave:
    http://panteltje.com/pub/250_Ah_12V_to_230V_sinewave_IXXIMG_0796.JPG
    On top of that I have a set of flexible solar panels I can for example lay out in the garden, it has a charger converter for the Lifepo4 battery pack. Actually more for on a boat...
    One option, I have gas heating but it uses electricity to work
    I think I can flip off all mains switches and feed it my 230 V sine wave and still have gas heating!

    Now I realy need an RTG!

    :-)

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  • From Hans-Werner Kneitinger@3:770/3 to All on Wed Dec 21 06:41:36 2022
    Am 21.12.22 um 05:23 schrieb bob prohaska:
    Martin Gregorie <martin@mydomain.invalid> wrote:
    The OP only wants to run a Pi4 (but doesn't say how much power the stuff
    controlled by it uses, but it looks like thats just an SSD, so probably
    one of the Pi HAT UPS boards would do the trick, with an SLA as a backup
    would fit his requirement.


    Indeed, it seems he only wanted to avoid corrupting the filesystem
    via an ungraceful shutdown or perhaps an interrupted restart. To
    that end it might suffice to just keep the system from restarting
    immediately to let the power settle down.

    Exactly. Power failure always happens when I was not at home. And then
    the FS (ext4, did not recover automaticity at boot. Even it is set via
    tune2fs to check every boot) is always corrupted so that the Pi cannot
    start.

    Router and other things are always starting after power failure.

    Happy holidays & qapla'
    hawe

    --
    cu
    hawe

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  • From Kees Nuyt@3:770/3 to Pancho.Jones@proton.me on Wed Dec 21 09:40:22 2022
    On Tue, 20 Dec 2022 21:34:46 +0000, Pancho
    <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> wrote:

    A powerbank seems like a good idea, worth a test.

    It should be rated to deliver 3 Ampere at 5 Volt, without "smart
    charging handshake". A Pi does not behave like a charging
    smartphone. I hope you can find such a powerbank.

    Save/shutdown could be initiated by a shell script monitoring "low
    voltage", from the powerbank. Or possibly using a failing heartbeat
    (ping) to another device which is connected to the same power socket,
    but without the intermediate powerbank, e.g. a router.

    The Pi itself can detect undervoltage with vcgencomd.

    https://retropie.org.uk/forum/topic/2295/runcommand-warning-if-voltage-temperature-throttling
    https://gist.github.com/aallan/0b03f5dcc65756dde6045c6e96c26459

    --
    Regards,
    Kees Nuyt

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  • From Kees Nuyt@3:770/3 to k.nuyt@nospam.demon.nl on Wed Dec 21 09:43:32 2022
    On Wed, 21 Dec 2022 09:40:23 +0100, Kees Nuyt
    <k.nuyt@nospam.demon.nl> wrote:

    The Pi itself can detect undervoltage with vcgencomd.

    Also check:
    vcgencmd measure_volts

    --
    Regards,
    Kees Nuyt

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Martin Gregorie on Wed Dec 21 12:04:30 2022
    On 20/12/2022 22:28, Martin Gregorie wrote:
    Understood. In most of the UK the falling tree problem is a non-issue
    because both power and phone lines tend to be in roadside trenches, specifically to avoid the falling tree problem: the 1987 storm accelerated the process of putting mains cables underground.

    Golly. Where do YOU live?

    Round here *everything* is overhead and the trees are truncated to be
    clear of the 11KV lines.

    And I dont think anything above that voltage is undergrounded at all,
    anywhere.

    I paid a fortune to have the line that ran over my back garden
    undergrounded and the pole mounted 'personal' transformer substation
    relocated (replaced) to a corner of the garden.

    The new house that I then built would have had an 11kV line running
    precisely where i am now sitting.

    Powercuts back then were almost exclusively tree branches on lines, or occasional lightning strikes. Now its as likely that they are down to
    renewable energy induced instability. That's Progress!

    But power cuts and brownouts are not being reduced. In fact the
    likelihod is, because renewable energy, increasing


    --
    "If you don’t read the news paper, you are un-informed. If you read the
    news paper, you are mis-informed."

    Mark Twain

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Hans-Werner Kneitinger on Wed Dec 21 12:12:32 2022
    On 21/12/2022 05:41, Hans-Werner Kneitinger wrote:
    Am 21.12.22 um 05:23 schrieb bob prohaska:
    Martin Gregorie <martin@mydomain.invalid> wrote:
    The OP only wants to run a Pi4 (but doesn't say how much power the stuff >>> controlled by it uses, but it looks like thats just an SSD, so probably
    one of the Pi HAT UPS boards would do the trick, with an SLA as a backup >>> would fit his requirement.

    Indeed, it seems he only wanted to avoid corrupting the filesystem
    via an ungraceful shutdown or perhaps an interrupted restart. To
    that end it might suffice to just keep the system from restarting
    immediately to let the power settle down.

    Exactly. Power failure always happens when I was not at home. And then
    the FS (ext4, did not recover automaticity at boot. Even it is set via tune2fs to check every boot) is always corrupted so that the Pi cannot
    start.

    Router and other things are always starting after power failure.


    That's a bit odd.
    I am fairly sure that the only things that don't restart are my desktop
    PC and big *86 based server, because I have configured them not to. My
    Pi comes up OK

    Why?
    Because back in the day, I used to let them auto boot on power on and
    one day, we have a power cut, followed by a power on, which started a
    boot, followed by a brownout that chopped power to the companies main
    386 SCO Unix machine with 4 hard drives - right on the power limits -
    just as it was doing its fsck repair task on the boot drive..

    Never got that back.

    hard earned lesson. Most *nix machines will survive a power cut. Mysql
    and so on may need repairing, but that's what transaction files are for.
    But no *nix machine that experiences a power cut and restart *in an
    active fsck session* is likely to make it.

    I wait until the power is back on for a time before I hit the tit.



    --
    "First, find out who are the people you can not criticise. They are your oppressors."
    - George Orwell

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  • From Martin Gregorie@3:770/3 to bob prohaska on Wed Dec 21 13:58:14 2022
    On Wed, 21 Dec 2022 04:23:34 -0000 (UTC), bob prohaska wrote:

    Indeed, it seems he only wanted to avoid corrupting the filesystem via
    an ungraceful shutdown or perhaps an interrupted restart. To that end it might suffice to just keep the system from restarting immediately to let
    the power settle down.

    Indeed, but having the UPS tell the the server to shut down cleanly it its battery gets exhausted would save a certain amount of dosh when it comes
    to replacing UPS batteries: running an SLA flat and not recharging
    immediately is not good for them.

    FWIW, my experience would seem to show that the UPS battery, on my rig
    anyway, has a very easy life. As I said, its initial set of batteries
    (Yuasa 7AH SLA) lasted for 8 years. I also use a pair of YUASA 7.2 AH to
    run the instruments, radio and FLARM in my glider. They get charged after
    each flying day and are cycled to measure their capacity every year. They
    get slung when their capacity drops below 65% of the rated value:
    generally this means they get replaced every 3 years.

    Whether one wants to maintain service or simply avoid damage makes a big difference. For the OP, who just wants to avoid damage, a manual restart device might be sufficient.

    He might get away with that reasonably cheaply if he's using alkalines or
    small SLA batteries, but other rechargeable battery types don't like being
    run flat and left, so could get both annoying and expensive without the backstop of a full shutdown when the UPS batteries are empty.

    This is one reason why I suggested the Pi hat type UPS: most of these can
    shut the Pi down cleanly when the battery is exhausted.


    After all, a few litres of petrol or diesel fuel is a lot cheaper than
    the equivalent amount of battery capacity.

    Fuel consuption on small generators is surprisingly high, around .1 gph
    per kW (capacity plus load). The smallest domestically useful generator (~2kW) will burn close to a litre per hour.

    Interesting: thanks for the info

    To some extent I'm suggesting the OP's original goal is likely to be incomplete: it's simpler ( not cheaper) to back up the entire connected system rather than protect a single element and let the rest go down. To
    that end, endurance is a useful feature.

    Indeed. I do exactly that with my house server: I use a cycle of two of WD Essentials 1TB USB drives to maintain backups of it.


    --

    Martin | martin at
    Gregorie | gregorie dot org

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  • From Martin Gregorie@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Wed Dec 21 14:02:22 2022
    On Wed, 21 Dec 2022 12:04:30 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 20/12/2022 22:28, Martin Gregorie wrote:
    Understood. In most of the UK the falling tree problem is a non-issue
    because both power and phone lines tend to be in roadside trenches,
    specifically to avoid the falling tree problem: the 1987 storm
    accelerated the process of putting mains cables underground.

    Golly. Where do YOU live?

    One of the older parts of Harlow, the first postwar New Town.



    --

    Martin | martin at
    Gregorie | gregorie dot org

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From bob prohaska@3:770/3 to Martin Gregorie on Wed Dec 21 18:01:30 2022
    Martin Gregorie <martin@mydomain.invalid> wrote:
    On Wed, 21 Dec 2022 04:23:34 -0000 (UTC), bob prohaska wrote:

    Indeed, it seems he only wanted to avoid corrupting the filesystem via
    an ungraceful shutdown or perhaps an interrupted restart. To that end it
    might suffice to just keep the system from restarting immediately to let
    the power settle down.

    Indeed, but having the UPS tell the the server to shut down cleanly it its battery gets exhausted would save a certain amount of dosh when it comes
    to replacing UPS batteries: running an SLA flat and not recharging immediately is not good for them.


    I was thinking of something much simpler, a delay timer that waits
    a while before powering the Pi back up. Just how long to wait will
    be a guess, somewhere between a few minutes and a few hours depending
    on the behavior of the power company. However, it'll only help if the
    root problem is interrupted restarts. That isn't certain at this point.

    FWIW, my experience would seem to show that the UPS battery, on my rig anyway, has a very easy life. As I said, its initial set of batteries
    (Yuasa 7AH SLA) lasted for 8 years. I also use a pair of YUASA 7.2 AH to
    run the instruments, radio and FLARM in my glider. They get charged after each flying day and are cycled to measure their capacity every year. They
    get slung when their capacity drops below 65% of the rated value:
    generally this means they get replaced every 3 years.


    If you can avoid peaky loads lead acid isn't bad. The refrigerator is
    what got me into trouble with deep cycle lead acid. For the Pi it was
    ok. But in general, LiFePO4 outperforms lead, at higher cost..

    Whether one wants to maintain service or simply avoid damage makes a big
    difference. For the OP, who just wants to avoid damage, a manual restart
    device might be sufficient.

    He might get away with that reasonably cheaply if he's using alkalines or small SLA batteries, but other rechargeable battery types don't like being run flat and left, so could get both annoying and expensive without the backstop of a full shutdown when the UPS batteries are empty.

    This is one reason why I suggested the Pi hat type UPS: most of these can shut the Pi down cleanly when the battery is exhausted.

    For the OP I think you're right.


    After all, a few litres of petrol or diesel fuel is a lot cheaper than
    the equivalent amount of battery capacity.

    Fuel consuption on small generators is surprisingly high, around .1 gph
    per kW (capacity plus load). The smallest domestically useful generator
    (~2kW) will burn close to a litre per hour.

    Interesting: thanks for the info

    To some extent I'm suggesting the OP's original goal is likely to be
    incomplete: it's simpler ( not cheaper) to back up the entire connected
    ^^^^^^^
    Oops, bad wording. Should have said "back up power".

    system rather than protect a single element and let the rest go down. To
    that end, endurance is a useful feature.

    Indeed. I do exactly that with my house server: I use a cycle of two of WD Essentials 1TB USB drives to maintain backups of it.

    Still true, as always!

    8-)

    bob prohaska

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  • From bob prohaska@3:770/3 to Hans-Werner Kneitinger on Wed Dec 21 17:27:18 2022
    Hans-Werner Kneitinger <hans-werner.kneitinger@gmx.de> wrote:

    Exactly. Power failure always happens when I was not at home. And then
    the FS (ext4, did not recover automaticity at boot. Even it is set via tune2fs to check every boot) is always corrupted so that the Pi cannot
    start.

    Could you describe in more detail exactly what happens?

    That's very unlike the behavior of my system, which runs
    Linux raspberrypi 5.10.103-v7l+ #1529 SMP Tue Mar 8 12:24:00 GMT
    2022 armv7l GNU/Linux. It's a default setup, no special startup
    settings. 8 GB RAM, mechanical hard disk, usb-sata bridge, no microSD.

    It's been crashed innumerable times by pulling the wrong plug,
    plugging in extra USB devices and software screwups. It's never
    failed to come back up to multi-user on its own.

    It sounds as if your machine is heavily loaded, set to cache
    storage writes very aggressively or configured to halt restart
    on minor errors. There were reports of lack of a monitor causing
    startup troubles but I don't think that was with RasPiOS.

    It's certainly true that a UPS will help, but it isn't clear
    that's the root of the undesired behavior.

    HTH,

    bob prohaska

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Martin Gregorie on Wed Dec 21 19:24:10 2022
    On 21/12/2022 14:02, Martin Gregorie wrote:
    On Wed, 21 Dec 2022 12:04:30 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 20/12/2022 22:28, Martin Gregorie wrote:
    Understood. In most of the UK the falling tree problem is a non-issue
    because both power and phone lines tend to be in roadside trenches,
    specifically to avoid the falling tree problem: the 1987 storm
    accelerated the process of putting mains cables underground.

    Golly. Where do YOU live?

    One of the older parts of Harlow, the first postwar New Town.

    Well I don't live in as New Town. I live next door to a property
    mentioned in the Domesday book...
    Not much has changed here since the 1920s, except broadband, which has
    gone all fibre

    It doesn't matter how much undergrounding is done when the main trunks
    are above ground

    And vulnerable to lightning strikes, or, the lines - like the old man
    of Madras' balls 'in windy weather they clashed together, and sparks
    flew out of his arse'.

    Even in towns its usual for substations to be fed from overheads. 33kV
    or 66KV. Only Londo undergrounds it's special 22KV network

    "National Grid owns the high voltage electricity transmission system in
    England and Wales and operates the system throughout Great Britain at
    275,000 and 400,000 volts (275kV and 400kV). This transmission system is
    made up of approximately 7,200 kilometres (4,470 miles) of overhead
    line, 1,400 kilometres (870 miles) of underground cable and about 330 substations"

    So the very high voltage stuff is predominantly up in the air

    As is most of the intermediate 11, 33 and 66kV stuff

    BUT it is possible that large towns will get a 175vKV feeder direct into
    a substation and then the down conversion to domestic voltage is all
    done there.






    --
    Climate Change: Socialism wearing a lab coat.

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  • From druck@3:770/3 to Hans-Werner Kneitinger on Wed Dec 21 20:55:20 2022
    On 21/12/2022 05:41, Hans-Werner Kneitinger wrote:
    Exactly. Power failure always happens when I was not at home. And then
    the FS (ext4, did not recover automaticity at boot. Even it is set via tune2fs to check every boot) is always corrupted so that the Pi cannot
    start.

    Sounds like your SD card is past end of life. Either get a new one, or
    use an alternative boot device such as a USB stick, or better still a
    small SSD with a USB adaptor.

    ---druck

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  • From Martin Gregorie@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Wed Dec 21 21:42:36 2022
    On Wed, 21 Dec 2022 19:24:10 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 21/12/2022 14:02, Martin Gregorie wrote:
    On Wed, 21 Dec 2022 12:04:30 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 20/12/2022 22:28, Martin Gregorie wrote:
    Understood. In most of the UK the falling tree problem is a non-issue
    because both power and phone lines tend to be in roadside trenches,
    specifically to avoid the falling tree problem: the 1987 storm
    accelerated the process of putting mains cables underground.

    Golly. Where do YOU live?

    One of the older parts of Harlow, the first postwar New Town.

    Well I don't live in as New Town. I live next door to a property
    mentioned in the Domesday book...
    Not much has changed here since the 1920s, except broadband, which has
    gone all fibre

    It doesn't matter how much undergrounding is done when the main trunks
    are above ground

    And vulnerable to lightning strikes, or, the lines - like the old man
    of Madras' balls 'in windy weather they clashed together, and sparks
    flew out of his arse'.

    Even in towns its usual for substations to be fed from overheads. 33kV
    or 66KV. Only Londo undergrounds it's special 22KV network

    "National Grid owns the high voltage electricity transmission system in England and Wales and operates the system throughout Great Britain at
    275,000 and 400,000 volts (275kV and 400kV). This transmission system is
    made up of approximately 7,200 kilometres (4,470 miles) of overhead
    line, 1,400 kilometres (870 miles) of underground cable and about 330 substations"

    So the very high voltage stuff is predominantly up in the air

    Indeed.

    As is most of the intermediate 11, 33 and 66kV stuff

    BUT it is possible that large towns will get a 175vKV feeder direct into
    a substation and then the down conversion to domestic voltage is all
    done there.

    Its possible that Harlow originally had above ground wiring,but somehow I
    doubt it: ads I said already, I live in one of the first bits of Harlow to
    be built, in a terrace which was built on a concrete slab with 13" no-
    fines, no cavity walls and with water, gas, and mains all in the base slab
    and originally with single pane iron framed windows, which were replaced
    with double glazing over 40 years ago. The only visible wiring is phone
    lines run just under the eaves, and would almost certainly have been
    installed some years after after the terrace was occupied.

    From this I deduce that the mains lines in this part of Harlow have always
    been under the concrete pavement at the front of the terrace along with
    the water mains.

    So, as I said, mains drop-outs either take out large chunks of the town
    for minutes to hours and are roughly once per decade events.

    The rest typically last for milliseconds to (rarely) 30 secs to a couple
    of minutes and tend to affect a relatively small part of town.

    These are what I bought the UPS to counter and I only got it because the glitches were frequent enough to be annoying. Needless to say they've not
    been anything like that frequent since I installed it, but at least I not
    have a better understanding of what a UPS can and cannot do and what
    features are worth paying for (multiple power supply sockets, the ability
    to:
    - shut the server down after a preset time or when its battery is empty,
    - to report UPS activations and battery condition warnings to the server.

    If there weren't bloody great Council-owned oaks immediately south of the terrace I'd have fitted solar panels for both power and hot water. There's
    just enough south-facing roof area to make the combo practical if the oaks weren't in the way and the terrace is aligned almost due east-west.


    --

    Martin | martin at
    Gregorie | gregorie dot org

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  • From Hans-Werner Kneitinger@3:770/3 to All on Thu Dec 22 06:32:48 2022
    Am 21.12.22 um 21:55 schrieb druck:

    Sounds like your SD card is past end of life. Either get a new one, or
    use an alternative boot device such as a USB stick, or better still a
    small SSD with a USB adaptor.

    In the past you are right. I have destroyed some SD-Card because of
    24/7, After buying the Pi4B I use a m1-ssd for booting and running.

    --
    cu
    hawe

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  • From Hans-Werner Kneitinger@3:770/3 to All on Thu Dec 22 06:31:02 2022
    Am 21.12.22 um 18:27 schrieb bob prohaska:

    Could you describe in more detail exactly what happens?

    OK, I don't think that I'm doing some special things.

    The Pi is running 24/7 flawless. Why power failures are happening, I
    don't know. Maybe it is while I'm living in an industrial region and
    developing area. Power failure is mostly short <1h.

    Pi is for controlling home environment such as heater and light and
    controlling my fish tank, too. Both fail save, so no harm has happened
    until now, but annoying. And it is running dnsmasq. Other computers are
    not running 24/7 but the internet router.

    After power recovery the internet router is coming up flawless. The pi
    is not cumming up. I have to power down the pi, disconnect.t the m1-ssd
    , which is connected via USB and set as boot device, to some other
    Linux. Doing fsck -y on the m1-ssd. Finding and repairing some errors.
    But don't ask which one. After repairing I connect the m1-ssd to Pi and
    power up. All is working fine.

    --
    cu
    hawe

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Hans-Werner Kneitinger on Thu Dec 22 06:17:48 2022
    On 22/12/2022 05:31, Hans-Werner Kneitinger wrote:
    Am 21.12.22 um 18:27 schrieb bob prohaska:

    Could you describe in more detail exactly what happens?

    OK, I don't think that I'm doing some special things.

    The Pi is running 24/7 flawless. Why power failures are happening, I
    don't know.

    Energiewende?
    Renewable energy is very unreliable.

    Maybe it is while I'm living in an industrial region and
    developing area. Power failure is mostly short <1h.

    Pi is for controlling home environment such as heater and light and controlling my fish tank, too. Both fail save, so no harm has happened
    until now, but annoying. And it is running dnsmasq. Other computers are
    not running 24/7 but the internet router.

    After power recovery the internet router is coming up flawless. The pi
    is not cumming up. I have to power down the pi, disconnect.t the m1-ssd
    , which is connected via USB and set as boot device, to some other
    Linux. Doing fsck -y on the m1-ssd. Finding and repairing some errors.
    But don't ask which one. After repairing I connect the m1-ssd to Pi and
    power up. All is working fine.

    Ah. You have an SSD via USB instead of a flash card

    I think that *may* be relevant.

    You might do better to have the booting done from the standard SD card
    and map all the moving data (/var and /home mostly) to the SSD, but not
    the boot section.

    that way you can guarantee the boot device is powered up and almost
    certainly (being readonly) free from errors, and the system can fsck the
    SSD to its hearts content


    --
    When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over
    the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that
    authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.

    Frédéric Bastiat

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Martin Gregorie on Thu Dec 22 06:11:34 2022
    On 21/12/2022 21:42, Martin Gregorie wrote:
    From this I deduce that the mains lines in this part of Harlow have always been under the concrete pavement at the front of the terrace along with
    the water mains.

    So, as I said, mains drop-outs either take out large chunks of the town
    for minutes to hours and are roughly once per decade events.

    The rest typically last for milliseconds to (rarely) 30 secs to a couple
    of minutes and tend to affect a relatively small part of town.

    We are talking about slightly different things here. In general except
    in the very rural places (like here) , the last mile is undergrounded.
    You will be connected to a substation serving a few thousand customers,
    which will push out 3 phase 230/415V stuff under the ground.
    That substation will be fed with a high voltage part of the grid,
    typically overhead.
    The current trend is to have all new stuff below 33KV undergrounded, but
    out here, we have overhead 11kV single and three phase lines, and the substation is a one or two property serving transformer up a pole.
    Except down in the village center, where there is a big grey hummy thing
    fed from the 11KV that serves all the concentrated houses , some
    undergound and some from poles.

    I have my own (private) grey hummy thing fed from the 11KV I paid a huge
    amount to have undergrounded.

    So it didn't run across my back garden

    What is common depends on where you are. Almost all of London is
    undergrounded now right up to pretty high voltages.

    Alamost all of Rural Suffolk is overhead, right up to the houses eaves.
    Only te towns and larger parts of large villages are undergrounded, and
    even then it is vulnerable to lightning strikes, wind induced shorts and
    tree branches as it is all fed from overhead 11 and 33KV rings

    It may be current practice to have nothing new below 100KV run overhead,
    but there is a heck of a lot of legacy grid out there that the power
    companies cannot afford to replace except slowly as and when.
    When I asked to get my section undergrounded the engineer who organised
    and planned it said 'We are not putting in new 11KV overhead, but I only
    have a limited budget to underground existing ring segments, nut if you
    can come up with £18k I'll match that and do the job '

    Since it probably added £200k to the value of the land, I wasn't too
    upset...


    --
    Microsoft : the best reason to go to Linux that ever existed.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Hans-Werner Kneitinger@3:770/3 to All on Thu Dec 22 08:00:26 2022
    Am 22.12.22 um 07:17 schrieb The Natural Philosopher:

    I think that *may* be relevant.

    You might do better to have the booting done from the standard SD card
    and map all the moving data  (/var and /home mostly) to the SSD, but not
    the boot section.

    that way you can guarantee the boot device is powered up and almost
    certainly (being readonly) free from errors, and the system can fsck the
    SSD to its hearts content

    I'm not sure about that. In the past running a P1 on SD-Card. The
    SD-Card is destroyed several time because of running 24/7. An other Pi I
    used for XBIAN and running on SD-Card only, I switched off by accident
    without a proper shutdown. It results in a corrupted FS, too.

    On this Pi the /boot is vfat (rw, relatime, shortname=mixed,
    errors=remount-ro) and / is ext4 (rw, noatime, discard and with journal enabled). Set via tune2fs to -c 1 -i 1d.

    In my opinion it is unsafe to power off the Pi without a proper shutdown regardless it is running on SD-Card or USB.

    --
    cu
    hawe

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Martin Gregorie@3:770/3 to Hans-Werner Kneitinger on Thu Dec 22 11:19:28 2022
    On Thu, 22 Dec 2022 08:00:26 +0100, Hans-Werner Kneitinger wrote:

    Am 22.12.22 um 07:17 schrieb The Natural Philosopher:

    I think that *may* be relevant.

    You might do better to have the booting done from the standard SD card
    and map all the moving data  (/var and /home mostly) to the SSD, but
    not the boot section.

    that way you can guarantee the boot device is powered up and almost
    certainly (being readonly) free from errors, and the system can fsck
    the SSD to its hearts content

    I'm not sure about that. In the past running a P1 on SD-Card. The
    SD-Card is destroyed several time because of running 24/7. An other Pi I
    used for XBIAN and running on SD-Card only, I switched off by accident without a proper shutdown. It results in a corrupted FS, too.

    On this Pi the /boot is vfat (rw, relatime, shortname=mixed, errors=remount-ro) and / is ext4 (rw, noatime, discard and with journal enabled). Set via tune2fs to -c 1 -i 1d.

    In my opinion it is unsafe to power off the Pi without a proper shutdown regardless it is running on SD-Card or USB.

    He's right: he's saying leave the vfat (boot) partition, on the sd card
    and move the ext4 partition (everything else) to usb-attached storage.

    This way the SD card is *always* read-only unless you're updating the vfat
    boot partition , which is a rare operation, and all normal writes go to
    the ext4 partition, which can be on ssd or spinning rust.


    --

    Martin | martin at
    Gregorie | gregorie dot org

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Hans-Werner Kneitinger on Thu Dec 22 12:10:32 2022
    On 22/12/2022 07:00, Hans-Werner Kneitinger wrote:
    Am 22.12.22 um 07:17 schrieb The Natural Philosopher:

    I think that *may* be relevant.

    You might do better to have the booting done from the standard SD card
    and map all the moving data  (/var and /home mostly) to the SSD, but
    not the boot section.

    that way you can guarantee the boot device is powered up and almost
    certainly (being readonly) free from errors, and the system can fsck
    the SSD to its hearts content

    I'm not sure about that. In the past running a P1 on SD-Card. The
    SD-Card is destroyed several time because of running 24/7. An other Pi I
    used for XBIAN and running on SD-Card only, I switched off by accident without a proper shutdown. It results in a corrupted FS, too.

    On this Pi the /boot is vfat (rw, relatime, shortname=mixed, errors=remount-ro) and / is ext4 (rw, noatime, discard and with journal enabled). Set via tune2fs to -c 1 -i 1d.

    In my opinion it is unsafe to power off the Pi without a proper shutdown regardless it is running on SD-Card or USB.

    Well yes, nothing is guaranteed, but my Pi has always booted after a
    power cut and that seems to be the general experience.
    Your experience seems unique

    --
    "Anyone who believes that the laws of physics are mere social
    conventions is invited to try transgressing those conventions from the
    windows of my apartment. (I live on the twenty-first floor.) "

    Alan Sokal

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From bob prohaska@3:770/3 to Hans-Werner Kneitinger on Thu Dec 22 19:49:32 2022
    Hans-Werner Kneitinger <hans-werner.kneitinger@gmx.de> wrote:
    Am 21.12.22 um 18:27 schrieb bob prohaska:

    Could you describe in more detail exactly what happens?

    OK, I don't think that I'm doing some special things.

    The Pi is running 24/7 flawless. Why power failures are happening, I
    don't know. Maybe it is while I'm living in an industrial region and developing area. Power failure is mostly short <1h.

    Pi is for controlling home environment such as heater and light and controlling my fish tank, too. Both fail save, so no harm has happened
    until now, but annoying. And it is running dnsmasq. Other computers are
    not running 24/7 but the internet router.

    After power recovery the internet router is coming up flawless. The pi
    is not cumming up. I have to power down the pi, disconnect.t the m1-ssd
    , which is connected via USB and set as boot device, to some other
    Linux. Doing fsck -y on the m1-ssd. Finding and repairing some errors.
    But don't ask which one. After repairing I connect the m1-ssd to Pi and
    power up. All is working fine.


    First off, a disclaimer: What I'm reporting below is based on
    experience with FreeBSD. My RasPiOS machine makes no such mischief.

    It's hard to experiment on a system in real use, but it would be
    interesting to know what happens if you simply repeat power cycling
    the Pi a few times without doing anything else. I've noticed (on Pi2
    and Pi3, not Pi4) that restarts sometimes fail the first try and work
    on a second or third try. That suggests something low-level in the
    bridge or Pi's USB initialization.

    If you have the option to try a different usb bridge I'd give it
    a try.

    Setting up a serial console might give more insight into the details
    of what's happening provided the boot at least initiates.

    bob prohaska

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Pancho@3:770/3 to Kees Nuyt on Thu Dec 22 22:27:12 2022
    On 21/12/2022 08:40, Kees Nuyt wrote:
    On Tue, 20 Dec 2022 21:34:46 +0000, Pancho
    <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> wrote:

    A powerbank seems like a good idea, worth a test.

    It should be rated to deliver 3 Ampere at 5 Volt, without "smart
    charging handshake". A Pi does not behave like a charging
    smartphone. I hope you can find such a powerbank.


    Well I tested on an rpi3.

    The rpi3 did run off a powerbank which was isolated from the mains.

    The rpi3 also ran off a powerbank which was itself connected to the
    mains. However, the rpi3 still switched off when the mains power supply
    to the powerbank was switched off. So the whole idea of using this as a
    cheap UPS is a non starter.

    Who knows if that would be the same for all powerbanks?

    I also did not get a reliable low voltage warning when the powerbank ran
    down (when not connected to the mains). The rpi3 just switched off.
    Maybe I messed up the test, but given the overall solution didn't work
    as intended, I can't be bothered to investigate further.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From David Taylor@3:770/3 to Pancho on Fri Dec 23 07:44:38 2022
    On 22/12/2022 22:27, Pancho wrote:
    Who knows if that would be the same for all powerbanks?

    It was for the one I used (no longer available), but you would need to check any you bought. It was only ever intended for a short outage cover.
    --
    Cheers,
    David
    Web: https://www.satsignal.eu

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Torsten Bamberg@2:240/5832 to Stephan Elinghaus on Thu Jan 12 01:01:34 2023
    Hallo Stephan!

    20.12.2022 09:03, Stephan Elinghaus schrieb an All:

    Am 2022-12-19 hat Hans-Werner Kneitinger geschrieben:
    c) So wie ich die Anleitung lese, kann der StromPi den Rpi runter
    fahren. Das geht aber wohl nur zeitgesteuert und nicht in
    Abhängigkeit des Akku Ladezustands. Kann das jemand bestätigen
    oder kennt eine Lösung das in Abhängigkeit der Akkuspannung zu
    machen?

    Ja, das stimmt, geht nur nach Zeit.
    Aber Du kannst Dir für das Geld (StromPi + Akku) schon fast eine
    richtige USV anschaffen. Das muß ja keine mit mehreren kW Leistung
    sein, da reicht eine kleine die aussieht wie eine etwas dickere Steckdosenleiste.
    Die hat den Vorteil, daß auch andere Geräte überbrückt werden, beispielsweise ein Switch oder Peripherie, die am Raspi hängt. Die meisten USVs haben eine Schnittstelle, über die sie ihren Zustand preisgeben. Die läßt sich mit dem Raspi verbinden und Du hast eine Lösung, die Du nach eigenem Ermessen konfigurieren kannst.

    Abseits davon:
    Wenn Du Akkuspannungsgesteuert runterfahren willst würde mir als
    erstes ein AD-Wandler einfallen, den man alle paar Sekunden nach der
    Akku- spannung fragen kann (max. 3.3V-Pegel der Raspi-Eingänge beachten!). Sinkt der Wert unter eine gewisse Schwelle -> "shutdown -h now". Dürfte mit ein paar Zeilen Python erledigt sein. Aber
    vermutlich gibt's auch hier fertige Lösungen, ich kann Dir
    leider mangels Kenntnis gerade keine nennen.
    Just take a look at github /nanomesher/nanomesher_piswitch_attiny or projects.descan.com/projekt5.html

    Both pi extensions allow to power down a pi without time definitions.
    I used ideas of theese projects for my own projekt to powering up or down a pi by irda using a programmable irda code or knop or by timeout/timer as a wakeup pi or powering down on an touch display.

    Listen, you need python-scripts or perl-scripts on the pi side, and enhanced coding features about atmel risc microprocesors. You need also design knowledge of electronic components, to design your own 'pi-hat'.

    My project is currently on going, nearly 95 percent is done, im working since two years on an 'high end multimedia player' based on pi3+ with special designed high-end 'digital to analog' very high resolution audiophile DAC which is working on 352,8khz with 32bit.

    Ahm, no, it's closed source. Don't ask for codings. I'm doing this for myself. Honesly, if I would have a money-problem, I won't design something completely new, I would buy it on ebay/alibaba.

    Sound matters. Nothing else counts.

    [out of signatures error]
    Bye/2 Torsten

    ... MAILBOX01: up 9d 0h 59m load: 40 proc, 195 threads (tbup1.1)
    --- GoldED+/OS2 1.1.5.22
    * Origin: DatenBahn BBS Hamburg (2:240/5832)