Hi John,

On 2021-06-21 00:11:43, you wrote to All:

wouldn't mind, send a netmail to dogbone@4:920/1 Subject doesn't
matter.

Thank you to those who have tested so far. FYI, /QUERY will now give a list
of nodes that have used the server.

Can you implement the /DELETE function! I don't want to be registered in your database, without giving my consent. In the EU you would be breaking the law with this... ;)

Bye, Wilfred.

--- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
* Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)

21 Jun 21 08:50, Wilfred van Velzen wrote to John Dovey:

Thank you to those who have tested so far. FYI, /QUERY will now give a list
of nodes that have used the server.

Can you implement the /DELETE function!

Seems to be implemented now.

I don't want to be registered in your database, without giving my consent. In the EU you would be breaking the law with this... ;)

Last time I visited Panama, it was not in the EU. ;)

'Tommi

---
* Origin: 2a01:4f9:c011:1ec5:f1d0:2:221:1 (2:221/1)

Hi Tommi,

On 2021-06-21 11:00:45, you wrote to me:

Can you implement the /DELETE function!

Seems to be implemented now.

I still get: "/DELETE is Not implimented yet" as response, so I don't think so...


Bye, Wilfred.

--- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
* Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)

21 Jun 21 10:53, Wilfred van Velzen wrote to Tommi Koivula:

Can you implement the /DELETE function!

Seems to be implemented now.

I still get: "/DELETE is Not implimented yet" as response, so I don't think so...

Ok, so the "/HELP" information is not ok then.

=== Cut ===
Commands: (Please note commands start with a /)
/HELP This message
/INFO Alias for /HELP
/ADD Add your info to the server (Register)
/UPDATE Update your data in the database
/DELETE Remove your information from the database
/QUERY Request informtion from the database
=== Cut ===

I don't quite understand the idea of this server... What is (or will be?) the purpose of collecting this kind of data?

'Tommi

---
* Origin: 2a01:4f9:c011:1ec5:f1d0:2:221:1 (2:221/1)

Hi Tommi,

On 2021-06-21 11:56:32, you wrote to me:

Can you implement the /DELETE function!

Seems to be implemented now.

I still get: "/DELETE is Not implimented yet" as response, so I don't
think so...

Ok, so the "/HELP" information is not ok then.

/DELETE Remove your information from the database

Not yet anyway...

I don't quite understand the idea of this server... What is (or will
be?) the purpose of collecting this kind of data?

I'm not sure either. Currently it just seems to be a proof of concept. But why register nodes/bbs's when we already have the nodelist?

"""
This is an experimental service.
...
Database Commands:
...
%BBSNAME=BBS_Name Set your BBS Name
... ^^^
%IPADDRESS= Your BBS IP Address (If Available)
^^^
"""

And it seems to assume everybody is operating a BBS? I don't, just a FTN node here...


Bye, Wilfred.

--- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
* Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)

Hello John,

On Monday June 21 2021 08:50, you wrote to Tommi Koivula:

Also true. I'm really curious about this though. I put "Wilfred van Velzen" into google and it came back with all sorts of interesting information, including inter alia:

https://fidonet.3bsoft.com/index.php?t=usrinfo&id=260&

So.. are they in violation of the EU Law?

Probably.

But they sure are in violation of the area rules. FN_SYSOP is a sysop only echo. Not to be made readable by non-sysops.


Cheers, Michiel

--- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
* Origin: ZC1 certified techno-dick (2:280/5555)

Hi John,

On 2021-06-21 08:50:12, you wrote to Tommi Koivula:

Can you implement the /DELETE function!

Seems to be implemented now.

Nope. Not yet. In fact I don't think I actually need to seeing as the only personally identifying info is freely available all over the place..
ie name/alias and node number.

It should be up to the node if he wants to be in your database or not. So only add them when they send a /ADD (not on any command like the /HELP), and delete them when they send the /DELETE.

Also, as it stands now, it's easy enough to send something like this
to the server:

/UPDATE
%Contact=Mickey Mouse
%FirstName=Mickey
%Surname=Mouse

That should do enough to handle most people's concerns ;-)

That's not the same thing, and for instance the nodenumber remains in your database.

If you want the cooperation of sysops, you should leave them the freedom of choice in these matters!

I don't want to be registered in your database, without giving my
consent. In the EU you would be breaking the law with this... ;)

Last time I visited Panama, it was not in the EU. ;)

Also true. I'm really curious about this though. I put "Wilfred van Velzen"
into google and it came back with all sorts of interesting information, including inter alia:

https://fidonet.3bsoft.com/index.php?t=usrinfo&id=260&

So.. are they in violation of the EU Law?

That's something different, I choose to use a public media to voice my oppinion. I didn't have the choice to be added to your database, and have no idea what it will be used for and where it will be published.

Bye, Wilfred.

--- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
* Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)

Hi John,

On 2021-06-21 09:08:01, you wrote to me:

Net ter inligting, ek hou baie daarvan om met Nederlandse mense te
praat in Afrikaans.. al voel dit vir julle as of die taal heel vreemd voorkom ;-)

Ja ik moet erg mijn best doen om het te kunnen begrijpen... ;)

Bye, Wilfred.

--- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
* Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)

Hi John,

On 2021-06-21 15:08:22, you wrote to me:

Ja ik moet erg mijn best doen om het te kunnen begrijpen... ;)

LOL. (of eerder, LMGA - Lag my Gat af)

Ek weet. Ek verstaan Nederlands maar nie so mooi as dit vinnge gepraat
is nie.. En dan maak ons so met die tweevoudige "nie".. wat ek weet
maak julle hare grys..

Dat klinkt erg raar ja...

In elkgeval, miskien is dit nie die regte plek vir hierdie gesprek.

Inderdaad... ;-)


Bye, Wilfred.

--- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
* Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)

Hi John,

On 2021-06-21 17:27:16, you wrote to me:

Can you implement the /DELETE function!

Ok. Done. Needs to be tested properly.
Also, if you do a /Query, /Delete or /Help it won't add anything to the database.

Thanks! Netmail is on it's way to test it...

Bye, Wilfred.

--- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
* Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)

Hi,
Ok.. this is not a test, but requesting some testing and comments.

I have written a robot as a proof of concept. It is still very rough around the edges and I know I have some conceptual issues ... I made some fallacious assumptions which I will need to fix before rewriting the whole thing.. but in the meantime, I need to stress test it a little to see where it breaks, where I need to put more attention etc.. so.. if you wouldn't mind, send a netmail to dogbone@4:920/1 Subject doesn't matter. In the body just include /INFO on a line by itself and it will send you a help message back.
Part of the test is to see if that is self-explanatory enough.

I have a terminal view access to the database (I will send the login details privately to those who ask) also accessible as a door from my BBS under (1) Main/(10) DogBone.

Comments, questions, discussion all welcome.

All the best
John
===
BoonDock
aka John Dovey



... Not ignorance, but ignorance of ingnorance, is the death of knowledge.
--- SBBSecho 3.12-Linux
* Origin: El Gato de Fuego - elgato.synchronetbbs.org (4:920/1)

Re: DogBone
By: John Dovey to All on Sun Jun 20 2021 19:35:16

wouldn't mind, send a netmail to dogbone@4:920/1 Subject doesn't matter.

Thank you to those who have tested so far. FYI, /QUERY will now give a list of nodes that have used the server.
===
* El Gato de Fuego (The Fire Cat) 4:920/69 * Pedasi, Panama

... Ambition is the curse of the political class.
--- SBBSecho 3.14-Win32
* Origin: El Gato de Fuego - Pedasi, Panama (4:920/69)

Re: DogBone
By: Daniel Path to John Dovey on Mon Jun 21 2021 08:07:33

i think the HELP should be a bit more detailed :)

True enough. Once I get where I want to go, I think the current format of the help will be sufficient as a summary, then one of the options could be for (for example) /FULLHELP which will send the extended, verbose, detailed "Idiot's Guide and How To" ... :-)

Thanks for the input
JD
===
* El Gato de Fuego (The Fire Cat) 4:920/69 * Pedasi, Panama

... Don't kiss an elephant on the lips today.
--- SBBSecho 3.14-Win32
* Origin: El Gato de Fuego - Pedasi, Panama (4:920/69)

Re: DogBone
By: Tommi Koivula to Wilfred van Velzen on Mon Jun 21 2021 11:00:45

Can you implement the /DELETE function!

Seems to be implemented now.

Nope. Not yet. In fact I don't think I actually need to seeing as the only personally identifying info is freely available all over the place.. ie name/alias and node number. Also, as it stands now, it's easy enough to send something like this to the server:

/UPDATE
%Contact=Mickey Mouse
%FirstName=Mickey
%Surname=Mouse

That should do enough to handle most people's concerns ;-)

I don't want to be registered in your database, without giving my
consent. In the EU you would be breaking the law with this... ;)

Last time I visited Panama, it was not in the EU. ;)

Also true. I'm really curious about this though. I put "Wilfred van Velzen" into google and it came back with all sorts of interesting information, including inter alia:

https://fidonet.3bsoft.com/index.php?t=usrinfo&id=260&

So.. are they in violation of the EU Law?

JD
===
* El Gato de Fuego (The Fire Cat) 4:920/69 * Pedasi, Panama

... It requires a very unusual mind to make an analysis of the obvious.
--- SBBSecho 3.14-Win32
* Origin: El Gato de Fuego - Pedasi, Panama (4:920/69)

Re: Re: DogBone
By: Wilfred van Velzen to Tommi Koivula on Mon Jun 21 2021 11:06:49

I don't quite understand the idea of this server... What is (or will
be?) the purpose of collecting this kind of data?

I'm not sure either. Currently it just seems to be a proof of concept. But why register nodes/bbs's when we already have the nodelist?

As I stated in my intitial message, I have some errors in my approach, so this is a proof of concept. The actual concept is this. I made a few statements about moving forward with FidoNet and was taken to task by various net.gods, and told, rather snidely, that if I wanted things to be different, then I should go ahead and write it myself... so that's what I'm doing. I have a concept in mind that I think could be useful. One which encapsulates a number of different aspects. Just one of those is auto updates to the nodelist. That's the simplest and least important aspect, I think. Extending out from that is auto-discovery and routing, shared (distributed) registry of nodes and users, registry of echos and which are carried by which nodes etc.

I wrote a server and a client that would share this info, but realised that convincing sysops to install yet another piece of software would be a real struggle until/unless the concept was proven.. and even then, it would be much MUCH simpler to first convince the BBS writers to include the functionality into the BBS software suite. So I decided to take the tools already available, and build something that works to make that proof of concept tangible.

I decided that writing a netmail based "robot" that would allow sysops and users to register and/or update their information was both in-line with current/old Fidonet procedures/technology and required nothing more than what everyone on FTN already has access to ie Netmail. Thus this proof of concept I requested testing of.

The current model is hugely flawed. I suspect that a better model will end up having the nodelist data imported into it's own table, and any changes to it only allowed with a password. Then as a secondary table, have user data that people can choose to submit. This would function something like a "white pages" for netmail addresses. One aspect of that would be the AKA funtion as most of us have multiple addresses across the FTN networks for example, simply registering on a new BBS gives you a new netmail address on every FTN and QWK network that the new BBS is a part of.

A next stage might be for sysops to opt in to register which Echos they carry. Additional info might be to add their up/down links. From that from the user perspective, it would be easy enough to find a place to pick up the conferences which they are interested in, especially those that don't have a wide distribution. It would also allow for some auto mapping of routes and flows of echomail that it not dependent on wading through all the various available echos.

There are numerous aspects to this that I have only barely speculated on, for example, cross referencing the echos with the Elist that Vincent maintains would be really helpful as well as maintaining cross-network links of echos and gateways.

As I said. Proof of concept. Putting my money where my mouth is. Exploring the options. Figuring out what works for users and what doesn't. YMMV. Caveat Emptor.

Net ter inligting, ek hou baie daarvan om met Nederlandse mense te praat in Afrikaans.. al voel dit vir julle as of die taal heel vreemd voorkom ;-)

All the best
John
===
* El Gato de Fuego (The Fire Cat) 4:920/69 * Pedasi, Panama

... Curiosity killed the cat, but for a while I was a suspect.
--- SBBSecho 3.14-Win32
* Origin: El Gato de Fuego - Pedasi, Panama (4:920/69)

Re: DogBone
By: Michiel van der Vlist to John Dovey on Mon Jun 21 2021 17:03:32

But they sure are in violation of the area rules. FN_SYSOP is a sysop only echo. Not to be made readable by non-sysops.

Honored more in the breech from what I've seen. <shrug>
===
* El Gato de Fuego (The Fire Cat) 4:920/69 * Pedasi, Panama

... He used to be fairly indecisive, but now he's not so certain.
--- SBBSecho 3.14-Win32
* Origin: El Gato de Fuego - Pedasi, Panama (4:920/69)

Re: Re: DogBone
By: Wilfred van Velzen to John Dovey on Mon Jun 21 2021 18:46:26

It should be up to the node if he wants to be in your database or not. So only add them when they send a /ADD (not on any command like the /HELP), and delete them when they send the /DELETE.

Sure. That was the original plan. That's why I created the /ADD as a command.

That's not the same thing, and for instance the nodenumber remains in your database.

True. As it happens, I think I explained this elsewhere/elsewhen, my intention is to import the Nodelist data anyway...

If you want the cooperation of sysops, you should leave them the freedom of choice in these matters!

Sure.

That's something different, I choose to use a public media to voice my oppinion. I didn't have the choice to be added to your database, and have no idea what it will be used for and where it will be published.

I understand your concern, but feel that it's a little like worrying about the stable-door. That horse has already bolted. Your name and node number of public information and can be (and are) harvested, mangled, spindled and folded by whoever wants to do that.

Ciao
John
===
* El Gato de Fuego (The Fire Cat) 4:920/69 * Pedasi, Panama

... Be wary of strong drink. It can make you shoot at tax collectors and miss --- SBBSecho 3.14-Win32
* Origin: El Gato de Fuego - Pedasi, Panama (4:920/69)

Re: Re: DogBone
By: Wilfred van Velzen to John Dovey on Mon Jun 21 2021 18:47:18

Ja ik moet erg mijn best doen om het te kunnen begrijpen... ;)

LOL. (of eerder, LMGA - Lag my Gat af)

Ek weet. Ek verstaan Nederlands maar nie so mooi as dit vinnge gepraat is nie.. En dan maak ons so met die tweevoudige "nie".. wat ek weet maak julle hare grys..

In elkgeval, miskien is dit nie die regte plek vir hierdie gesprek.
Mooi loop
John
===
* El Gato de Fuego (The Fire Cat) 4:920/69 * Pedasi, Panama

... Heavy, adj.: Seduced by the chocolate side of the force.
--- SBBSecho 3.14-Win32
* Origin: El Gato de Fuego - Pedasi, Panama (4:920/69)

Re: Re: DogBone
By: Wilfred van Velzen to John Dovey on Mon Jun 21 2021 18:46:26

Can you implement the /DELETE function!

Ok. Done. Needs to be tested properly.
Also, if you do a /Query, /Delete or /Help it won't add anything to the database.

JD
===
* El Gato de Fuego (The Fire Cat) 4:920/69 * Pedasi, Panama

"... Don't handicap your children by making their lives easy. - RAH"
--- SBBSecho 3.14-Win32
* Origin: El Gato de Fuego - Pedasi, Panama (4:920/69)

Re: Re: DogBone
By: Wilfred van Velzen to John Dovey on Tue Jun 22 2021 08:53:27

Hi,
For those who want to try again, you can send a message to dogbone@4:920/1 with /QUERY and you will get back both a list of those who have registered, as well as of the Nodes from the nodelist in your Zone/Net.

You might want to try it from an FSX_NET address as well to dogbone@21:1/228 to test that.

All the best
John
===
* El Gato de Fuego (The Fire Cat) 4:920/69 * Pedasi, Panama

"... Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. -RAH"
--- SBBSecho 3.14-Win32
* Origin: El Gato de Fuego - Pedasi, Panama (4:920/69)

Hello John;

John Dovey wrote to All <=-

Re: Re: DogBone

I'm giving your dogbone a try :)

... Old pilots never die, they just go to a higher plane.
--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
* Origin: SBBS - Carnage! Hartford, Ct (1:142/103)

Re: Re: DogBone
By: Brian Rogers to John Dovey on Wed Jun 23 2021 10:42:00

I'm giving your dogbone a try :)

Thsnk you.
Let me know how it goes ...
JD
===
BoonDock
aka John Dovey



... All great discoveries are made by mistake.
--- SBBSecho 3.12-Linux
* Origin: El Gato de Fuego - elgato.synchronetbbs.org (4:920/1)

Hello John;

John Dovey wrote to Brian Rogers <=-

Thsnk you.
Let me know how it goes ...

It went pretty good! I was more interested in the nodes/hosts in my zone:net for fido since I'm the coordinator. It showed the massive amounts of those
who are in my area (4) <G> Very good!

... Old limbo dancers never die, they just go under.
--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
* Origin: SBBS - Carnage! Hartford, Ct (1:142/103)

Re: Re: DogBone
By: Brian Rogers to John Dovey on Wed Jun 23 2021 15:42:00

It went pretty good! I was more interested in the nodes/hosts in my zone:net for fido since I'm the coordinator. It showed the massive amounts of those who are in my area (4) <G> Very good!

Awesome.

Next on the list is to be able to query a Zone/Net/Node to get the nodes in that combination. Then to query a node and get the registered users for that node.

Moving on one step at a time ;-)

JD
===
* El Gato de Fuego (The Fire Cat) 4:920/69 * Pedasi, Panama

"... I will accept any rules that you feel necessary to your freedom. I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally resp
onsible for everything I do. ― RAH, The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress"
--- SBBSecho 3.14-Win32
* Origin: El Gato de Fuego - Pedasi, Panama (4:920/69)

Re: Re: DogBone
By: Brian Rogers to John Dovey on Wed Jun 23 2021 15:42:00

It went pretty good! I was more interested in the nodes/hosts in my zone:net for fido since I'm the coordinator. It showed the massive amounts of those who are in my area (4) <G> Very good!

Ok, you can now send dogbone@4:920/1 the command /NODELIST like this:

/NODELIST
#Zone=x
#Net=x

And it will send you a list. Use % as a wildcard. If you don't specify then it assumes everything.

All the best
John
===
BoonDock
aka John Dovey



... An idea is not responsible for the people who believe in it.
--- SBBSecho 3.12-Linux
* Origin: El Gato de Fuego - elgato.synchronetbbs.org (4:920/1)

John;

John Dovey wrote to Brian Rogers <=-

Ok, you can now send dogbone@4:920/1 the command /NODELIST like this:

/NODELIST
#Zone=x
#Net=x

Does /NODELIST go in the subject line? I wasn't sure. Also is "#"
mandatory in front of Zone and Net?

... Old white water rafters never die, they just get disgorged.
--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
* Origin: SBBS - Carnage! Hartford, Ct (1:142/103)

Re: Re: DogBone
By: Brian Rogers to John Dovey on Wed Jun 23 2021 22:10:00

Does /NODELIST go in the subject line? I wasn't sure. Also is "#" mandatory in front of Zone and Net?

Subject is ignored.

/Nodelist goes in the body.
#zone= or #net= must be somewhere in the body with the # otherwise they are set to be wildcards.

So message:

-x-
To: Dogbone@4:920/1
Subject: Anything you like
Body:
/Nodelist
#zone=2
-x-

Will send you a list of all nets and nodes in Zone 2

/Nodelist
#net=3

Will send you a list of nodes from FSXNET as well as STARNET as both have a net 3.

JD
===
* El Gato de Fuego (The Fire Cat) 4:920/69 * Pedasi, Panama

"... Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig. -- RAH, Time Enough for Love"
--- SBBSecho 3.14-Win32
* Origin: El Gato de Fuego - Pedasi, Panama (4:920/69)

On 26 Jun 21 21:20:02, John Dovey said the following to Nick Andre:

If the RC/ZC/IC is presented with a well formatted nodelist (or segment of one) why would they care how it was generated?

You'd be surprised... its not "how" its generated but "by whom".

The current nodelist management is one of checks and balances. It has worked, currently works, will work tomorrow... the human element just works.

Where is the checks and balances in your project, and what obligation does an RC or ZC have to accept your data?

Nick

--- Renegade vY2Ka2
* Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)

Glad to see you, Nick!

On 26 Jun 21 21:20:02, John Dovey said the following to Nick Andre:

If the RC/ZC/IC is presented with a well formatted nodelist (or segment of
one) why would they care how it was generated?

You'd be surprised... its not "how" its generated but "by whom".

The current nodelist management is one of checks and balances. It has worked,
currently works, will work tomorrow... the human element just works.

Where is the checks and balances in your project, and what obligation does an
RC or ZC have to accept your data?

Nick

I think you?re confusing my intentions. I?m talking about the creation of a tool, just one more in the toolbox of the various people who have to do the work. I have no intention of usurping the role or function of anyone.
Why I do want to try to do is create a tool that can be used by anyone in the chain to extract the data for whatever purposes they desire. If that is to use it to send up the chain as they trust the data, then that?s on them. It?s a pull not push scenario.
Just like there is a tool to check the validity of the data (ErrChk) and another to assemble the data (nodenl) this *could* serve as a tool to collate the data, and format it, at the sysop/RC/ZC?s discretion and then feed into the various data checks and compilations etc.
I think you think that I?m talking about it replacing the entire nodelist process. That?s possible I suppose, but if it ever happened it would be because a plurality of the various role players decided that was what they wanted, not because of anything I?d prescribed.
I hope that makes it clearer.
All the best,
JD

*** [Netmail-to-Telegram address: 474405162@2:460/256]

... Tag, you are IT!
--- tg BBS v0.7.1
* Origin: Fido by Telegram BBS from Stas Mishchenkov (2:460/256)

Re: Re: DogBone
By: Nick Andre to John Dovey on Sat Jun 26 2021 20:28:27

I wonder what good is the ambition, if a ZC will not process your segments?

Quite honestly, I don't understand your question.

If the RC/ZC/IC is presented with a well formatted nodelist (or segment of one) why would they care how it was generated?

JD
===
* El Gato de Fuego (The Fire Cat) 4:920/69 * Pedasi, Panama

"... Delusions are often functional. A mother's opinions about her children's beauty, intelligence, goodness, et cetera ad nauseam, keep her from drowning them at birth. -- RAH, Time Enough for Love"
--- SBBSecho 3.14-Win32
* Origin: El Gato de Fuego - Pedasi, Panama (4:920/69)