I know all there is to know about fiat money. I have a university
degree to show for it. I also know that there's a limit to how many
trillions (US -- not metric) of dollars the FED can print and get away
with it.
If I may start
with one, where can we find out when money is printed and how much?
If I may start with one, where can we find out when money is
printed and how much?
That's an easy one. It's your central bank that "prints" your
money.
The US however does not have a real central bank, they have a
regular, private bank called the Federal Reserve, and that is a really interesting story, that will not fit into a regular Fidonet
message. Google for "Federal Reserve Act" to find out more.
Not even the US citizens (save for perhaps a few percent) know
about this incredible institution that has such enormous impact on
their economy:
"It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our
banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be
a revolution before tomorrow morning."
-- not Henry Ford 8-)
But all fiat money is still just virtual, weather printed on (toilet?) paper or ending up as a number in a computer data base.
Not even the US citizens (save for perhaps a few percent) know
about this incredible institution that has such enormous impact on
their economy:
"It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our
banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be
a revolution before tomorrow morning."
-- not Henry Ford 8-)
In that case, I will also read
How Internationalists Gain Power
Russell Maguire
https://www.unz.com/print/AmMercury-1957oct-00079/?View=PDF
to see if I can get the context.
Time for you to meet the Creature from Jekyll Island.
By G. Edward Griffin. It is quite a tome, but well worth
the read. Happy Hunting.
Wow. GEG's wikipedia page is the most severe hatchet job I've read in
a long time. Time for some balanced editing.
Lee Lofaso - Wayne Harris <0@2.203.2> writes:
Hello Wayne,
[...]
I know all there is to know about fiat money. I have a university
degree to show for it. I also know that there's a limit to how many
trillions (US -- not metric) of dollars the FED can print and get away >> >> with it.
Great to know! I will probably have a lot of question. If I may start >> WH> with one, where can we find out when money is printed and how much?
(This must be public information, I suppose.) Does the question make >> WH> sense? Thank you!
Jekyll Island. Meet the Creature. Learn everything you have always
wanted to know ...
On page 192 of the 5th edition, George Edward Griffin begins to describe the ``Mandrake Mechanism''. I was warned that the process might not make much sense, but I'm not trying to find any sense in this. My interest in only in clarity.
``First, the Fed takes all the government bonds which the public does
not buy and writes a check to Congress in exchange for them. (It
acquires other debt obligations as well, but government bonds comprise
most of its inventory.)''
Let me take each step carefully. The government issues bonds. Some people buy it. Some bonds are not bought. How does Congress get involved in this? Is it the case that Congress buys all those people did not buy? With what money does Congress buy? Is Griffin saying that the Fed itself ``writes a check to Congress'' so that Congress can afford it?
Let me begin with these questions only. Thank you.
The Congress does not spend money. It merely appropreates funds.
That is what most folks fail to realize, or simply do not understand.
Bankers understand the process, and how to make money work for them.
You see, money is nothing more than a medium of exchange. And as you
know, no real money ever passes hands in Congress.
Let me begin with these questions only. Thank you.
The Congress does not spend money. It merely appropreates funds.
That is what most folks fail to realize, or simply do not understand.
Bankers understand the process, and how to make money work for them.
You see, money is nothing more than a medium of exchange. And as you
know, no real money ever passes hands in Congress.
I think you answer the questions above, but not in an explicit way as I need to. I'm slow. I need more explicit help. You might be saying the Fed provides Congress with the money for buying out the bonds the people did not buy, but it's not clear. If you're saying that, I'd need you to say it explicitly and hopefully with a pointer of the accounting events that would show it.
Griffin does not have a very good grasp on how things work.
It was you who recommended me the book. :-)
The Congress does not spend money. It appropriates funds. The
Department of the Treasury is part of the Executive Branch, not the
Legislative Branch. How can the Department of the Treasury sell what
it cannot own?
It's kinda like robbing Peter to pay Paul. There has to be a victim,
even if that victim never realizes he/she is the victim.
Paper bills and coins made of metal have no real value. People are
able to spend it as "legal tender" only because government endorsed
it. Otherwise, those paper bills and coins made of metal would be
just as worthless.
IOW, people spend it because they believe it has value. If they did
not believe it had value, it would be used for something else.
Some people like to save it rather than spend it. But what they
are actually doing is allow other people to spend it since they are
not spending it themselves.
See how that works? Are you catching on yet?
What Griffin calls the "Mandrake Mechanism" is his way of trying
to put the blame on inflation as being the root cause of all evil.
But if you take the time to analyze what is really happening, you
will find deflation to be far more destructive than inflation.
If you want to make money you have to spend money. Preferably
other people's money. Saving money is losing money, since all money
loses value over time. And you are talking about paper bills, which
have no value to begin with.
Austerity has never worked in the past. It will not work now.
And it will never work in the future. What happens, is people just
wait. And wait. And wait. For prices to drop. And drop. And drop.
That is no way to build an economy.
The idea of fiat money, or scrip, is nothing new. People place
value on objects of their own choice, or what the leaders of their
tribe have dictated. Even primitive societies use fiat money.
We could just as well be using snake oil. The people of Yap use
giant round stones as their currency. They haul these giant stones
from island to island, hoping their canoe does not sink along the
way.
How much gold is stored at Ft. Knox? Or at any vault in the US?
If Germany requested the US to return its stash of gold being held
in US vaults, would the US comply? I doubt it.
Suppose the US no longer has the gold it was storing for Germany.
What would happen to whatever investments the US has in Germany?
If I was holding your gold, and you wanted it back, and I couldn't
find it, you would not be a happy camper.
Back to the original question.
How can the Fed give money to the Congress when the Fed has no
money of its own?
The Fed can print money. Or what it calls money. As much, or as
little, as it wants. It can raise interest rates. It can lower interest
rates. It can do lots of other things. It can create, and control, what
is commonly called "money". But what happens when all the money that
is printed gets out of control?
We know what happened in Germany. People had so much money they did
not what to do with it. Then came Hitler, who gave Germans everything
he promised, and more.
We also know what happeed in the USA. People had no money, and did
not know what to do. Then came FDR, who gave Americans everything he
promised, and more.
Yep. If you want to make money, gotta spend money, preferably other
people's money. Kinda like robbing Peter to pay Paul.
I appreciate your attention. You're not answering the question, but I take responsibility for it. I didn't express myself well. The question has been snipped, so I'll have to recover it.
--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
On page 192 of the 5th edition, George Edward Griffin begins to describe
the ``Mandrake Mechanism''. I was warned that the process might not
make much sense, but I'm not trying to find any sense in this. My
interest in only in clarity.
``First, the Fed takes all the government bonds which the public does
not buy and writes a check to Congress in exchange for them. (It
acquires other debt obligations as well, but government bonds comprise
most of its inventory.)''
Let me take each step carefully. The government issues bonds. Some
people buy it. Some bonds are not bought. How does Congress get
involved in this? Is it the case that Congress buys all those people
did not buy? With what money does Congress buy? Is Griffin saying that
the Fed itself ``writes a check to Congress'' so that Congress can
afford it?
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---
As I tried to convey above, I'm interested in understanding each step of the process with a maximum of clarity.
Child A slapped child B in school and there is no question as to the
fact --- it's been filmed by a security camera and many people have already seen it. Parents are making a whole fuss about it. A meeting
has been scheduled. Some claim it was an act of evil and others said
it's just normal children stuff. These are all profound questions. All I'm asking is to see the video: it must show the fact and I haven't seen it yet.
My own attempt at answering the question might clarify, but it won't be
as clear as I would like it to be, so please rewrite it or fill it in as you can.
Governments eventually find themselves having spent all the resources
they had. More resources are coming all the time through the revenue service, so when pockets are empty they could first check with the Department of Treasury whether they've earned some more in the meantime. Suppose the answer is no: the government has spent it all from their ``last paycheck''. They'll need a plan B.
As a plan B, the government decides to sell bonds. Some people buy it because it's considered by many a very good investment, after all it's
the treasury promising to pay it back with an interest. However, after selling all securities people were willing to buy, they still didn't
raise all they needed, so they need a plan C.
As a plan C, the Treasury approaches the Federal Reserve to provide the resources they couldn't raise by themselves. The Federal Reserve
provides the Treasury with _something_ that allows the Treasury to let government start spending, which they do. From here on money starting flowing hand in hand as payments are made and banks go on lending it to whoever borrows and earning interests over their ``excess reserves'' --- for sure the best business model there is.
So, when Griffin says ``the Fed takes all the government bonds which the public does not buy and writes a check to Congress in exchange for
them'', perhaps he means that the Federal Reserve buys all bonds the public did not buy, letting the Treasury raise the resources they wanted to, but couldn't do it themselves alone (because people just didn't buy
it all.)
It should be clear now that I'm interested in the process. I may not
know whether we are counting cats or dogs, but I should be able to see
the arithmetic in clear steps. If I've counted 3 things already in day
1 and then I count 4 more things in day 2, then putting these two days together, I've counted 3 + 4 = 7, which I verify by looking up my
addition table, which is something I assume to be correct.
Thank you!
Hello Wayne,
[..]
Griffin does not have a very good grasp on how things work.
It was you who recommended me the book. :-)
These are his stated beliefs. Make of them what you will.
From his very own homepage -
https://freedomforceinternational.org/position-statements/
Enjoy his entire site. Lots there.
Here is a talk by him, on a different site -
https://www.bigeye.com/griffin.htm
That should be enough to give you an idea as to where he is
coming from. In all his writings, he is consistent with his POV.
Griffin does not have a very good grasp on how things work.
It was you who recommended me the book. :-)
Highly. Very highly. It is the best. The very best. And I am not
the only one who recommends reading this book. It is a true classic,
and is extremely popular among many, including some US Senators.
https://tinyurl.com/st3feq3
This page doesn't recommend the book. Ron Paul might, I don't know if
he does. In any case Ron Paul does seem serious about understanding things because he seems to invite serious people who do seriously work
on understanding things.
``What is money?'' by Joseph Salerno https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vowbrq_g5NM
``What is constitutional money?'' by Edwin Vieira https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6gMkKmQSW4
``What about money causes economic crisis?'' by Peter Schiff https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npJ0CUT8d_Y
The Congress does not spend money. It appropriates funds. The
Department of the Treasury is part of the Executive Branch, not the
Legislative Branch. How can the Department of the Treasury sell what
it cannot own?
It's kinda like robbing Peter to pay Paul. There has to be a victim,
even if that victim never realizes he/she is the victim.
Paper bills and coins made of metal have no real value. People are
able to spend it as "legal tender" only because government endorsed
it. Otherwise, those paper bills and coins made of metal would be
just as worthless.
IOW, people spend it because they believe it has value. If they did
not believe it had value, it would be used for something else.
Some people like to save it rather than spend it. But what they
are actually doing is allow other people to spend it since they are
not spending it themselves.
See how that works? Are you catching on yet?
What Griffin calls the "Mandrake Mechanism" is his way of trying
to put the blame on inflation as being the root cause of all evil.
But if you take the time to analyze what is really happening, you
will find deflation to be far more destructive than inflation.
If you want to make money you have to spend money. Preferably
other people's money. Saving money is losing money, since all money
loses value over time. And you are talking about paper bills, which
have no value to begin with.
Austerity has never worked in the past. It will not work now.
And it will never work in the future. What happens, is people just
wait. And wait. And wait. For prices to drop. And drop. And drop.
That is no way to build an economy.
The idea of fiat money, or scrip, is nothing new. People place
value on objects of their own choice, or what the leaders of their
tribe have dictated. Even primitive societies use fiat money.
We could just as well be using snake oil. The people of Yap use
giant round stones as their currency. They haul these giant stones
from island to island, hoping their canoe does not sink along the
way.
How much gold is stored at Ft. Knox? Or at any vault in the US?
If Germany requested the US to return its stash of gold being held
in US vaults, would the US comply? I doubt it.
Suppose the US no longer has the gold it was storing for Germany.
What would happen to whatever investments the US has in Germany?
If I was holding your gold, and you wanted it back, and I couldn't
find it, you would not be a happy camper.
Back to the original question.
How can the Fed give money to the Congress when the Fed has no
money of its own?
The Fed can print money. Or what it calls money. As much, or as
little, as it wants. It can raise interest rates. It can lower interest
rates. It can do lots of other things. It can create, and control, what
is commonly called "money". But what happens when all the money that
is printed gets out of control?
We know what happened in Germany. People had so much money they did
not what to do with it. Then came Hitler, who gave Germans everything
he promised, and more.
We also know what happeed in the USA. People had no money, and did
not know what to do. Then came FDR, who gave Americans everything he
promised, and more.
Yep. If you want to make money, gotta spend money, preferably other
people's money. Kinda like robbing Peter to pay Paul.
I appreciate your attention. You're not answering the question, but I
take responsibility for it. I didn't express myself well. The
question has been snipped, so I'll have to recover it.
That's okay. The article I cited above does give a very concise, and
accurate, answer.
If you're talking about
https://tinyurl.com/st3feq3
then you can't be serious.
This page ridicules the work and doesn't answer anything.
I'm perplexed you'd say this page answer the question.
We must be having a serious miscommunication here.
[...]
It should be clear now that I'm interested in the process. I may not
know whether we are counting cats or dogs, but I should be able to see
the arithmetic in clear steps. If I've counted 3 things already in day
1 and then I count 4 more things in day 2, then putting these two days
together, I've counted 3 + 4 = 7, which I verify by looking up my
addition table, which is something I assume to be correct.
Oh, I am sure you and others are able to count just fine. Next post
I am going to roast Griffin's "mandrake mechanism" over very hot coals.
And see if there is anything left when the flames subside. Feel free
to comment on my upcoming analysis.
Sounds great! Thanks! (I haven't any new posts on this, though.)
Griffin does not have a very good grasp on how things work.
It was you who recommended me the book. :-)
These are his stated beliefs. Make of them what you will.
From his very own homepage -
https://freedomforceinternational.org/position-statements/
Enjoy his entire site. Lots there.
Here is a talk by him, on a different site -
https://www.bigeye.com/griffin.htm
Thanks. Incidentally, I had already read this talk. That does clarify his meanings of some of his description in chapter ten of ``The Creature from Jekyll Island''.
That should be enough to give you an idea as to where he is
coming from. In all his writings, he is consistent with his POV.
Yes, thanks.
But, you see, I'm not worried about his position or ``where he is coming from''. Of course it's a very interesting thing to understand a person deeply, but for Wayne Harris right now the moment is to verify
arithmetic. We begin verifying that ``2 + 2 = 4'' and then then we move to claims such as ``17 is a prime number''. We'll leave interesting stories of how Gauss really found the normal distribution for a more retrospective moment of life. The moment is to know it exists and to
use it to calculate probabilities. In other words, most of the causes Griffin lays out in his talks and books are not important to the
beginner: what matters most is how things work and how we can verify it.
So here's a pretty simple question. Is there an _official_ reporter of the
US national debt? (If so, where does it show it the amount?)
A follow-up question would be: how can we get an official history of the increases in the national debt? (That is, where is the accounting statements for the number over the last few decades?)
Thanks so much.
So here's a pretty simple question. Is there an _official_ reporter of the
US national debt? (If so, where does it show it the amount?)
The Department of the Treasury.
The stats can be viewed online.
[...]
reporter of theSo here's a pretty simple question. Is there an _official_
US national debt? (If so, where does it show it the amount?)
The Department of the Treasury.
The stats can be viewed online.
That makes perfect sense. I get to
https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/faqs/Markets/Pages/national-debt.aspx
and then I go to
https://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/pd.htm
The question is which report tells me the total national debt and where. I'm not interested in budget deficits or anything. I just to see how
and where does the Treasury report the total national debt. Can you
point an accurate arrow to it? I appreciate that! Thanks!
Hi, Lee!
Lee Lofaso - Wayne Harris <0@2.203.2> writes:
Hello Wayne,
[...]
So here's a pretty simple question. Is there an _official_
reporter of the US national debt? (If so, where does it show
it the amount?)
The Department of the Treasury.
The stats can be viewed online.
That makes perfect sense. I get to
https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/faqs/Markets/Pages/national-debt.aspx
and then I go to
https://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/pd.htm
The question is which report tells me the total national debt and where.
I'm not interested in budget deficits or anything. I just to see how >> WH> and where does the Treasury report the total national debt. Can you
point an accurate arrow to it? I appreciate that! Thanks!
Here is a site that breaks it down in chunks, year by year -
https://www.thestreet.com/politics/national-debt-year-by-year-14876008
Wonderful! Thanks so much for this.
You can find the same info at the Department of the Treasury site,
but it is not nearly as colorful. :)
I suppose. I'll do this confirmation as my next step.
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