• Tipping Customs

    From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to All on Thu Jul 15 00:16:06 2021
    Hello Everybody,

    In the USA it is customary to tip the waiter/waitress
    at a dining establishment. Unless one is dining at a fast
    food joint, where no tipping is allowed. Especially when
    one gets their food from the drive-in window.

    Now, one might think that waiters and waitresses do not
    need the tips, as all workers receive a federally mandated
    minimum wage, currently $7.25 for most folks. However, the
    minimum for waiters/waitresses is far less, at $2.13/hour.
    And whatever tips they do receive must be shared with all
    the other waiters/waitresses, along with the dishwasher
    and janitor and other kitchen help.

    That is not much to live on.

    So why not abolish tipping altogether in favor of better
    wages? Or even better, do like Sweden and have no federally
    mandated minimum wage at all?

    Just think of what life would be like if folks could dine
    out and never have to pay for the service they get. Now if
    only the chef would comply we could all have a free lunch.

    --Lee

    --
    We Make Your Wet Dreams Come True
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  • From David Drummond@3:640/305 to Lee Lofaso on Thu Jul 15 09:12:24 2021
    On 15/07/2021 08:16, 2203/2 wrote:
    [..]
    So why not abolish tipping altogether in favor of better
    wages? Or even better, do like Sweden and have no federally
    mandated minimum wage at all?

    Just think of what life would be like if folks could dine
    out and never have to pay for the service they get. Now if
    only the chef would comply we could all have a free lunch.

    Tipping is not customary in this country either. The price of the meal, charged by the dining establishment, includes the service/processes behind preparing the meal and cleaning up afterwards.

    The minimum wage here is somewhat more than you quoted above.

    Makes me wonder why anyone in a country as developed as USA would take up the waiting profession.

    --
    Regards
    David

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  • From john guillory@1:396/60 to David Drummond on Wed Jul 14 20:41:52 2021
    by the dining establishment, includes the service/processes behind preparing the meal and cleaning up afterwards.
    The minimum wage here is somewhat more than you quoted above.
    Makes me wonder why anyone in a country as developed as USA would take
    up the waiting profession.
    Because the reason they get away with it is because they claim that
    their tips + hourly income equals that of minimum wage. If tey don't make
    the amount equal to minimum wage, they have to keep records of their tips,
    and report it on their taxes. but in either case, the reason they think they make more than minimum wage is because of their large breast, skimpy uniform, and flirting. Likewise, its also why they usually receive little to no tip from married men.

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  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Lee Lofaso on Thu Jul 15 10:58:38 2021
    I never tip customs ...
    --- DB4 - Jul 12 2021
    * Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)
  • From Kurt Weiske@1:218/700 to David Drummond on Thu Jul 15 07:08:00 2021
    David Drummond wrote to Lee Lofaso <=-

    Makes me wonder why anyone in a country as developed as USA would take
    up the waiting profession.

    Now, after the lockdown, they're not.

    Maye $2.13/hour plus tips, no medical benefits, no time off, inconsistent schedule, or work at a Starbucks for $14-16/hour, paid tuition assistance, optional medical benefits and a relatively fixed weekly schedule?

    No wonder restaurants are finding it hard to hire staff back at the status quo?

    I'd love seeing a restaurant raise their prices by 10-15%, pay a living
    wage, and abolish tipping. I'd expect most people to just look at the price
    on the menu and not think it through to the tip. Then, there are those who don't tip feeling like it's their right to underpay. :)


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  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Kurt Weiske on Fri Jul 16 00:36:12 2021
    I'd love seeing a restaurant raise their prices by 10-15%, pay a living wage, and abolish tipping.

    Correct. Until that happens I treat my waiters and waitresses well ...

    \%/@rd
    --- DB4 - Jul 12 2021
    * Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)
  • From David Drummond@3:640/305 to Kurt Weiske on Fri Jul 16 13:25:28 2021
    On 16/07/2021 00:08, 1218/700 wrote:
    [..]

    I'd love seeing a restaurant raise their prices by 10-15%, pay a living wage, and abolish tipping. I'd expect most people to just look at the price
    on the menu and not think it through to the tip. Then, there are those who don't tip feeling like it's their right to underpay.  :)

    It's not that I fail to tip because I have a "right to underpay", more that I feel that the employer does not have a right to underpay.

    We have what we call "backpackers" here. Itinerant, usually younger persons working as agricultural workers, picking fruit etc. They are almost always foreign kids.

    With COVID there are hardly any backpackers around for the crops to be harvested, the farmers are moaning (I live in an agricultural area).

    This area also has a high unemployment situation amoung locals. None of the locals want to work for the farmers however as the wages are shit - less than a local can get from the unemployment benefits offered by Social Security.

    The farmers are offering less than a living wage. I'm not sure how they can offer less than the official minimum wage...

    --
    Regards
    David

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  • From David Drummond@3:640/305 to Ward Dossche on Fri Jul 16 13:27:24 2021
    On 16/07/2021 00:36, 2292/854 wrote:

    I'd love seeing a restaurant raise their prices by 10-15%, pay a living
    wage, and abolish tipping.

    Correct. Until that happens I treat my waiters and waitresses well ...

    Do you tip all people who perform a service for you? Are none of them paid by their employer to perform that service? If not, what are they employed to do?

    --
    Regards
    David

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  • From Terry Roati@3:640/1321 to David Drummond on Fri Jul 16 15:01:48 2021

    On Jul 16, 2021 01:25pm, David Drummond wrote to Kurt Weiske:

    Hi David,

    The farmers are offering less than a living wage. I'm not sure how they can offer less than the official minimum wage...

    According to my Irish barber who stays in a share house with backpackers who do fruit picking in the Cairns area, they are paid on volume picked not a
    wage, the good ones make over 2k a week clear.

    Terry

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  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to David Drummond on Fri Jul 16 14:08:36 2021
    Correct. Until that happens I treat my waiters and waitresses well
    ...

    Do you tip all people who perform a service for you? Are none of them
    paid by their employer to perform that service? If not, what are they employed to do?

    Let me expand on that ... in the USA I treat my waiters and waitresses well ... out here they are protected by social legislation and get:

    1. Decent wages
    2. Healh insurance
    3. Retirment benefit/pension plan

    Restaurant bills here get a mandatory 17% tip included which goes to all the staff untaxed as well as a 21% VAT. Meaning 38% of the bill is not food-related.

    In my country I feel no need to tip, people get paid salaries from which they can live.

    \%/@rd

    --- DB4 - Jul 12 2021
    * Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)
  • From Kurt Weiske@1:218/700 to Ward Dossche on Fri Jul 16 08:12:00 2021
    Ward Dossche wrote to David Drummond <=-

    In my country I feel no need to tip, people get paid salaries from
    which they can live.

    Now, to clarify, some people make respectable incomes through tips. I've
    known waiters who've earned incomes that made me envious. It's hard work.

    Hustle in an expensive restaurant and you'll do well. The down side is the mom-n-pop diner, greasy spoon, neighborhood ethnic restaurant, etc. Work as hard and receive a fraction of the waiter at a high-end restaurant.

    I'd rather see a living wage and benefits for wait staff, but a) restauranteurs don't want to see change happen that costs them more, and b) people here are fine with raising the standard of living for all, as long as it doesn't cost them any more.




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  • From David Drummond@3:640/305 to Ward Dossche on Sat Jul 17 10:38:00 2021
    On 16/07/2021 14:08, 2292/854 wrote:

    [...]
    In my country I feel no need to tip, people get paid salaries from which they can live.

    As they do here ... well, except for the foreign backpackers doing agricultural work. I guess they don't count, they can just piss off back to where they came from if they don't like it.

    Australia has legalised slavery!

    --
    Regards
    David

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  • From David Drummond@3:640/305 to Terry Roati on Sat Jul 17 10:39:24 2021
    On 16/07/2021 15:01, 3640/1321 wrote:

     DD>> The farmers are offering less than a living wage. I'm not sure how they
     DD>> can offer less than the official minimum wage...

     According to my Irish barber who stays in a share house with backpackers who
    do fruit picking in the Cairns area, they are paid on volume picked not a wage, the good ones make over 2k a week clear.

    I wonder why the situation isn't the same in the Bundaberg/Childers areas... the locals don;t want to do the work due to poor wages.

    --
    Regards
    David

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  • From Terry Roati@3:640/1321 to David Drummond on Sat Jul 17 14:06:28 2021

    On Jul 17, 2021 10:39am, David Drummond wrote to Terry Roati:

    I wonder why the situation isn't the same in the Bundaberg/Childers areas... the locals don;t want to do the work due to poor wages.

    Locals here also don't want to do the hard work as they probably get enough from job seeker and jobs they do for cash. It probably depends on the crop
    they picking for on how much they are paid, here it was for bananas.

    In NQ there has been a lot of agricultural work done by contract since early last century, the Italians came here to cut cane and worked hard and made big money and ended up buying the cane farms.

    There is an interesting book called "From Italy to Ingham" you can download from one of the QLD unis.

    Terry

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  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Terry Roati on Sat Jul 17 11:13:40 2021
    There is an interesting book called "From Italy to Ingham" you can
    download from one of the QLD unis.

    If it's not on paper, I'm not reading it ...

    \%/@rd

    --- DB4 - Jul 12 2021
    * Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)
  • From Terry Roati@3:640/1321 to Ward Dossche on Sat Jul 17 19:32:04 2021

    On Jul 17, 2021 11:13am, Ward Dossche wrote to Terry Roati:

    If it's not on paper, I'm not reading it ...

    It's a pdf, so you could print it or just read the little bit about the Roati family :)

    Terry

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  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Terry Roati on Sat Jul 17 12:25:06 2021
    If it's not on paper, I'm not reading it ...

    It's a pdf, so you could print it or just read the little bit about the Roati family :)

    Let me recite from the New Testament according to Rice and Webber:

    "I only want to say
    If there is a way
    Take this cup away from me
    For I don't want to taste its poison"

    :-)

    \%/@rd

    --- DB4 - Jul 12 2021
    * Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)
  • From Terry Roati@3:640/1321 to Ward Dossche on Sat Jul 17 21:00:58 2021

    On Jul 17, 2021 12:25pm, Ward Dossche wrote to Terry Roati:

    "I only want to say
    If there is a way
    Take this cup away from me
    For I don't want to taste its poison"

    What is more concerning is what is not written :)

    Terry

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  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Terry Roati on Sat Jul 17 13:45:32 2021
    "I only want to say
    If there is a way
    Take this cup away from me
    For I don't want to taste its poison"

    What is more concerning is what is not written :)

    Do I feel the juicy part coming?

    Shed the burden of the years Terry, educate us ... :-)

    \%/@rd
    --- DB4 - Jul 12 2021
    * Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Terry Roati on Sat Jul 17 15:50:40 2021
    just read the little bit about the Roati
    family

    What pages would that be? I only found one occurrence of Roati (on page 161). Well, actually two if you count the index...


    ..

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  • From David Drummond@3:640/305 to Ward Dossche on Sun Jul 18 07:24:46 2021
    On 17/07/2021 11:13, 2292/854 wrote:
    There is an interesting book called "From Italy to Ingham" you can
    download from one of the QLD unis.

    If it's not on paper, I'm not reading it ...

    Save the rainforests - ban paper.

    --
    Regards
    David

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  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to David Drummond on Sat Jul 17 23:42:22 2021
    If it's not on paper, I'm not reading it ...

    Save the rainforests - ban paper.

    Rainforests have got nothing to do with paper.

    \%/@rd

    --- DB4 - Jul 12 2021
    * Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)
  • From Terry Roati@3:640/1321 to Ward Dossche on Sun Jul 18 08:54:44 2021

    On Jul 17, 2021 01:45pm, Ward Dossche wrote to Terry Roati:

    Do I feel the juicy part coming?

    Shed the burden of the years Terry, educate us ... :-)

    Only hearsay at this time but it would be nice to be able to confirm the stories I recently heard, still trying to research.

    Terry

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  • From Terry Roati@3:640/1321 to Björn Felten on Sun Jul 18 09:01:14 2021

    On Jul 17, 2021 03:48pm, Bj”rn Felten wrote to Terry Roati:

    just read the little bit about the Roati
    family

    What pages would that be? I only found one occurrence of Roati (on
    page 161). Well, actually two if you count the index...

    I did say little, the book is more about how the Italians came to Australia
    and settled, North Queensland has a large population of Italians with Ingham being the most famous as it has an Italian festival every year which is very popular.

    The other famous thing about Ingham is a song "Pub with no beer" which is
    based on a ringer (cowboy) who rode into town to have a few beers during the second world war but the American soldiers beat him and drank the town dry.

    Terry

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  • From David Drummond@3:640/305 to Ward Dossche on Sun Jul 18 18:37:04 2021
    On 17/07/2021 23:42, 2292/854 wrote:
    If it's not on paper, I'm not reading it ...

    Save the rainforests - ban  paper.

    Rainforests have got nothing to do with paper.

    Do they grow much plantation timber in Brazil?


    --
    Regards
    David

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  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to David Drummond on Sun Jul 18 17:20:20 2021
    If it's not on paper, I'm not reading it ...

    Save the rainforests - ban  paper.

    Rainforests have got nothing to do with paper.

    Do they grow much plantation timber in Brazil?

    Rainforest wood is not used in paper production...

    \%/@rd

    --- DB4 - Jul 12 2021
    * Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)
  • From Dmitry Protasoff@2:5001/100.1 to Ward Dossche on Wed Jul 21 03:26:14 2021
    Hello, Ward!

    Saturday July 17 2021 23:42, you wrote to David Drummond:

    Rainforests have got nothing to do with paper.

    BTW, you are wrong. Sumatra's rainforests were cut for the paper production in big numbers.
    But Indonesia is not very popular in EU.

    Best regards,
    dp.
    --- GoldED+/W64-MSVC 1.1.5-b20180707
    * Origin: No rest for the wicked (2:5001/100.1)
  • From David Drummond@3:640/305 to Dmitry Protasoff on Wed Jul 21 16:49:14 2021
    On 21/07/2021 10:26, Dmitry Protasoff : Ward Dossche wrote:

     WD>> Rainforests have got nothing to do with paper.

    BTW, you are wrong. Sumatra's rainforests were cut for the paper production in big numbers.
    But Indonesia is not very popular in EU.


    When I was working, the paper we used came from Brazil. The packaging didn't say what trees it was made of.

    --
    Regards
    David

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  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Dmitry Protasoff on Wed Jul 21 12:12:10 2021
    Dmitry,

    Rainforests have got nothing to do with paper.

    BTW, you are wrong. Sumatra's rainforests were cut for the paper
    production in big numbers.
    But Indonesia is not very popular in EU.

    I respectfully disagree. That is not the situation "now".

    Using tropical hard wood for paper is ridiculous, way too valuable. Most of that went to Japan into construction and furniture. I'm also talking "today", not 1973.

    The planting of sustainable forrests is now common business. The days that several square miles of forrest were milled just for one single week-end edition of the New York Times are history.

    There is a lot of grey matter and reading up on what CITES has to say (Convention on International Trade in Edangered Species) as well as IUCN (International Union for the Conservation of Nature) is very inspiring.

    A lot of the tropical woods are now on one of the 3 CITES-lists and very difficult to trade ... unless harvested in portions of Russia because it stays in the same country.

    \%/@rd
    --- DB4 - Jul 12 2021
    * Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)
  • From Dmitry Protasoff@2:5001/100.1 to David Drummond on Mon Jul 26 03:57:20 2021
    Hello, David!

    Wednesday July 21 2021 16:49, you wrote to me:

    BTW, you are wrong. Sumatra's rainforests were cut for the paper
    production in big numbers.
    But Indonesia is not very popular in EU.


    When I was working, the paper we used came from Brazil. The packaging didn't say what trees it was made of.

    Suzano (largest paper producer in Brazil) is actually not very evil. But deforestation in Brazil is mostly process of cutting tress to free more land for pasture.


    Best regards,
    dp.
    --- GoldED+/W64-MSVC 1.1.5-b20180707
    * Origin: No rest for the wicked (2:5001/100.1)
  • From Dmitry Protasoff@2:5001/100.1 to Ward Dossche on Mon Jul 26 04:02:18 2021
    Hello, Ward!

    Wednesday July 21 2021 12:12, you wrote to me:

    BTW, you are wrong. Sumatra's rainforests were cut for the paper
    production in big numbers.
    But Indonesia is not very popular in EU.

    I respectfully disagree. That is not the situation "now".

    Using tropical hard wood for paper is ridiculous, way too valuable.
    Most of that went to Japan into construction and furniture. I'm also talking "today", not 1973.

    And what about cutting trees to produce more meat? Is meat more valuable than paper?
    This is really a problem in Brazil, very huge one.
    And I don't really think that EU can do much about that.

    The planting of sustainable forrests is now common business. The days
    that several square miles of forrest were milled just for one single week-end edition of the New York Times are history.

    In Sumatra? Not really.

    Best regards,
    dp.
    --- GoldED+/W64-MSVC 1.1.5-b20180707
    * Origin: No rest for the wicked (2:5001/100.1)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Dmitry Protasoff on Mon Jul 26 12:19:16 2021
    Dmitry,

    And what about cutting trees to produce more meat? Is meat more valuable than paper?
    This is really a problem in Brazil, very huge one.
    And I don't really think that EU can do much about that.

    Thank you for responding but I've been through this subject at least a dozen times, so this time I'll gracefully bow out. What needed to be said, has already been said, it is not something new.

    I rather think you are not really aware what CITES and IUCN are.

    If you want to talk about tropical forrest which are cut, I suggest you start dealing with the cutting and milling of that wood "in" Russia, for consumption "in" Russia, without any concern for whatever international treaty.

    \%/@rd
    --- DB4 - Jul 07 2021
    * Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)
  • From Dmitry Protasoff@2:5001/100.1 to Ward Dossche on Mon Jul 26 13:34:14 2021
    *** Answering a msg posted in area carbonArea (Carbon Area).

    Hello, Ward!

    Monday July 26 2021 12:19, you wrote to me:

    And what about cutting trees to produce more meat? Is meat more
    valuable than paper? This is really a problem in Brazil, very huge
    one. And I don't really think that EU can do much about that.

    Thank you for responding but I've been through this subject at least a dozen times, so this time I'll gracefully bow out. What needed to be
    said, has already been said, it is not something new.

    I cannot be held responsible for your discussions with someone else ;)

    I rather think you are not really aware what CITES and IUCN are.

    I know but it doesn't make much sense for this discussion.
    For many years EU was one of the main drivers for deforestation in Brazil, but once it decided to push major players into more eco-friendly way of doing things - other guys stepped into this game which is still played and you cannot deny that.
    Descreased EU exports? China is ready to replace EU. And it doesn't care much that eco-business.
    And it's already largest importer of Brazil's meat.

    What EU can do about that?

    If you want to talk about tropical forrest which are cut, I suggest
    you start dealing with the cutting and milling of that wood "in"
    Russia, for consumption "in" Russia, without any concern for whatever international treaty.

    Our main trade partner for wood is China. This is who is paying now for our deforestation.
    Probably you know that protesting in Russia against almost anything - is a risk. Big risk with possible consequences of large fines, jail terms and police torture.
    People who are protesting against forects cuts know those facts very good ;)

    And Germany (largest player in EU) is a very big friend of Putin's regime, paying it with hard currency for our gas and arguing with USA that this a right way of realpolitik :)
    Since we can always buy some german's politicians (like former kanzler Gerhard Schroder working in Rosneft for many years) - China will get as much our wood as it wants.



    Best regards,
    dp.
    --- GoldED+/W64-MSVC 1.1.5-b20180707
    * Origin: No rest for the wicked (2:5001/100.1)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Dmitry Protasoff on Mon Jul 26 20:17:42 2021
    Dmitry,

    I cannot be held responsible for your discussions with someone else ;)

    :-)

    For many years EU was one of the main drivers for deforestation in
    Brazil, .....

    A date please ... before 1980? Earlier even?

    much that eco-business.
    And it's already largest importer of Brazil's meat.

    I would say Japan is ...

    What EU can do about that?

    Write a strongly worded letter ... that'll teach'm...


    Probably you know that protesting in Russia against almost anything - is
    a risk.

    So we've heard ... that's what happens if only specific people make it to ballot.

    And Germany (largest player in EU) is a very big friend of Putin's
    regime, paying it with hard currency for our gas and arguing with USA
    that this a right way of realpolitik :)

    Alas ... not just Germany ...

    BTW, your beer sucks.

    \%/@rd

    --- DB4 - Jul 07 2021
    * Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)