• To find a subject... 1.

    From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/6 to Ardith Hinton on Thu Jun 24 11:00:24 2021

    Hi, Ardith Hinton! -> Alexander Koryagin
    I read your message from 22.06.2021 23:58

    Homework, BTW, is not countable but homework assignments are.
    A good piece of information.

    Glad you found it useful....

    You are, indeed! It's shame for me that I am so lazy and don't ask you for more. :) Maybe because of my melancholic mood last time.

    "Etc." is an abbreviation which calls for a period, but you're
    also asking a question here. AFAIC it's okay to use a period
    followed by a question mark in such cases.
    But when I asked my question with "etc" I didn't use quotes, did
    I?

    No, you didn't. Perhaps my response was confusing... but I see you
    know how to employ them in making reference to a word or an
    abbreviation.

    So my question was correct?
    Looking at the punctuation, I'd have written:
    Do you have school tests on grammar rules etc.?

    I'll try to remember it. Once upon a time I wanted very much to learn English punctuation. ;)

    Another sentence can be: Do you have a special rule on "etc."?

    Yes, that works. And no, I don't. I understand native speakers of
    English find it easier to get the letters in the right order,
    however, if they know "etc." is short for "et" (and) + "cetera"
    (the rest)....

    If I say that question verbally, should I mention the full stop after "etc"?

    Also: AFAIK

    Uh-huh. AFAIC & AFAIK are similar but not identical.

    AFAIC = As Far As I'm Concerned, meaning I am stating an opinion or personal preference. (While I've seen no evidence of it myself I
    imagine some folks might argue that because the periods are often
    left out of various other abbreviations nowadays they can leave out
    the period with "etc." too. And not evverybody agrees about how to
    handle end punctuation in various cases). :-))

    Does AFAIC mean "As for me"? For instance, "AFAIC, I never read yellow press".

    Bye, Ardith!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2021

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    * Origin: nntp://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)
  • From Anton Shepelev@2:221/6 to Ardith Hinton on Fri Jul 2 13:54:54 2021
    Ardith Hinton:

    While many sources regard "period" & "full stop" as
    synonymous, BTW, my inclination is to think of a period
    as a punctuation mark (.) which is used in various ways
    but may be called a "full stop" at the end of a
    sentence.

    This distiction between the punctuation character and one of
    its functions is very useful, do hold on fast to it.

    I'm very careful to make such distinctions in my own
    writing.

    I wish I did, too. We must strive to use words that best
    express the tints, shades, and nuaces of our intended
    meaning, lest we lose those fine niceties -- first from our
    thoughts, and then from our language.

    However, it seems I am often overruled because double
    spacing isn't allowed in programming jargon.

    Do you mean double spacing between sentences? That's absurd
    it should not be allowed, because *roff -- the oldest and
    nerdiest document-formatting system -- has natural support
    for it. It was desinged and implemented by die-hard
    UNIXoids. The famous Kernighan & Ritchie participated in the
    implementation and then wrote in it their masterpiece about
    C. I still prefer *roff to LaTeX and other modern document
    processors.

    While it try to make my writing understandable to my
    audience, I am constantly thwarted by programmers who
    believe they can make it more efficient... (sigh).

    As my boss told a colleague who asked me to help her with
    transation into English, "Anton is much better at
    translating from Russian into C#." I know very few
    programmers who care about their (natural) language and have
    a taste for prose. Their attempts to refactor (to use
    programming jargon) your text may destroy it. But their
    optionion of what is said wrong and unclear is often
    correct, only the writer should be the one to make
    amendments!

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    * Origin: nntp://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)
  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/6 to Ardith Hinton on Mon Jul 5 13:09:54 2021

    Hi, Ardith Hinton! -> Alexander Koryagin
    I read your message from 30.06.2021 23:58

    It's shame for me that I am so lazy and don't ask you for more.

    Your usual pace is about right for me. I often wish I could answer
    more messages, but there are only so many hours in a day.: - Q

    Probably I could ask more if were a retiree. But it will not be soon. Putin doesn't have money to pay pensions, and he decided to rise the retirement age. ;-)

    <skipped>

    While many sources regard "period" & "full stop" as synonymous,
    BTW, my inclination is to think of a period as a punctuation mark
    (.) which is used in various ways but may be called a "full stop"
    at the end of a sentence. I'm very careful to make such
    distinctions in my own writing. However, it seems I am often
    overruled because double spacing isn't allowed in programming
    jargon. While it try to make my writing understandable to my
    audience, I am constantly thwarted by programmers who believe they
    can make it more efficient... (sigh).

    (While I've seen no evidence of it myself I imagine some folks
    might argue that because the periods are often left out of various
    other abbreviations nowadays they can leave out the period
    with "etc." too. And not evverybody agrees about how to handle end
    punctuation in various cases).

    In the Russian language we have the rule that no additional full stop is put at the end of the sentence where the last word is a shorten word with a period.
    But if you see logical and correct "etc.?" then "etc.." is also logical. But I am sure everybody throws the last full stop away.

    Bye, Ardith!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2021

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    * Origin: nntp://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)
  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/6 to Anton Shepelev on Mon Jul 5 13:32:18 2021

    Hi, Anton Shepelev! -> Ardith Hinton
    I read your message from 02.07.2021 13:54

    While many sources regard "period" & "full stop" as synonymous,
    BTW, my inclination is to think of a period as a punctuation mark
    (.) which is used in various ways but may be called a "full stop"
    at the end of a sentence.

    This distiction between the punctuation character and one of its
    functions is very useful, do hold on fast to it.

    I'm very careful to make such distinctions in my own writing.

    I wish I did, too. We must strive to use words that best express
    the tints, shades, and nuaces of our intended meaning, lest we lose
    those fine niceties -- first from our thoughts, and then from our language.

    I imagine how Anton, full of energy, sits in the library reading thick English books. Great! ;-)
    --nuances

    Bye, Anton!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2021

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    * Origin: nntp://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)
  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/6 to Ardith Hinton on Mon Jul 19 22:00:36 2021

    Hi, Ardith Hinton! -> Alexander Koryagin
    I read your message from 15.07.2021 01:09


    -----Beginning of the citation-----
    In the Russian language we have the rule that no additional
    full stop is put at the end of the sentence where the last
    word is a shorten word with a period.
    |shortened


    Ah. I follow patterns, not rules... but this makes sense to
    me. The period can do double duty at the end of a sentence. In E_T we
    often talk about spelling, punctuation, grammar, etc. And I use the traditional double space at the end of a sentence to reinforce the idea
    that I've come to a full stop.
    ----- The end of the citation -----

    I thought for a long time what had you meant by "double space at the end
    of a sentence" because my qouter removes double spaces. ;-)

    -----Beginning of the citation-----
    In the Russian language we have the rule that no additional full
    stop is put at the end of the sentence where the last word is a
    shorten word with a period.
    |shortened

    Ah. I follow patterns, not rules... but this makes sense to me. The
    period can do double duty at the end of a sentence. In E_T we often
    talk about spelling, punctuation, grammar, etc. And I use the
    traditional double space at the end of a sentence to reinforce the
    idea that I've come to a full stop.
    ----- The end of the citation -----

    Bye, Ardith!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2021

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    * Origin: nntp://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Alexander Koryagin on Sat Aug 7 13:34:26 2021
    Hi, Alexander! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

    I thought for a long time what had you meant by "double
    space at the end of a sentence" because my qouter removes
    double spaces. ;-)


    I had suspected as much. In Fidonet we don't always know what other people's software will do until we see it happen. But your idea of posting an excerpt seems to work quite well if you want to keep the original spacing.

    If you &/or your quoter prefer not to use the double space, I accept that when the results are consistent... as they are in this example. But from my POV it's annoying when my software will accept a double space in the middle of a line but try to correct it if I use it near the end of a line. No matter how I adjust the settings, it has its own ideas about line wrapping... (sigh).




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/6 to Ardith Hinton on Sun Aug 8 14:44:50 2021

    Hi, Ardith Hinton! -> Alexander Koryagin
    I read your message from 07.08.2021 13:34

    I thought for a long time what had you meant by "double space at
    the end of a sentence" because my qouter removes double spaces.

    I had suspected as much. In Fidonet we don't always know what other people's software will do until we see it happen. But your idea of
    posting an excerpt seems to work quite well if you want to keep the original spacing.

    If you &/or your quoter prefer not to use the double space, I
    accept that when the results are consistent...

    It is the specifics of my quoter. My quoter can format the text to a
    formatted form with an aligned right margin, and in this case additional
    spaces are OK. Vice versa it removes additional spaces and line returns
    when I want long line paragraphs.

    as they are in this example. But from my POV it's annoying when my software will accept a double space in the middle of a line but try
    to correct it if I use it near the end of a line. No matter how I
    adjust the settings, it has its own ideas about line wrapping...
    (sigh).

    I remember you like to write your messages in the formatted form with
    the aligned right margin. It means the text alignment is turned on in
    your editor. In this case your editor can itself add/remove additional
    spaces for the text alignment, to more exact in those places it found
    proper. You can try to switch off the text alignment in the editor
    settings. After this procedure your text spaces will be unchanged by the
    editor itself.

    Bye, Ardith!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2021

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    * Origin: nntp://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)
  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/6 to Ardith Hinton on Sun Sep 12 15:29:12 2021

    Hi, Ardith Hinton! -> Alexander Koryagin
    I read your message from 10.09.2021 23:12

    If you &/or your quoter prefer not to use the double space, I
    accept that when the results are consistent...

    It is the specifics of my quoter.

    But you generally follow the same pattern in your own writing. :-))

    It is only if I turn on the aligning option. For making the text right
    margin aligned it is necessary to add some additional spaces. My quoter
    add these spaces at first after full stops, commas etc. If it is not
    enough additional spaces are added between words too. For instance, here
    are two ways of quoting - with aligning and without. At present, I
    always use the second variant.

    -----Beginning of the citation-----
    When HarperCollins first approached me to write the foreword to Sterling's little book, I must admit that I was more than a bit
    taken aback. Not quite aghast, but definitely shocked, For one
    thing, Sterling has never been much of a reader. In fact, to the
    best of my knowledge, the only things he ever read growing up were pornographic comic books (we used to call them "Tijuana bibles,"
    but I'm sure that's no longer considered polite, what with all
    these immigrants driving around everywhere in their lowriders, listening to raps and shooting all the jobs). So the thought of Sterling writing an actual book? With words? Yes, I was definitely shocked.

    When HarperCollins first approached me to write the foreword to
    Sterling's little book, I must admit that I was more than a bit
    taken aback. Not quite aghast, but definitely shocked, For one
    thing, Sterling has never been much of a reader. In fact, to the
    best of my knowledge, the only things he ever read growing up were pornographic comic books (we used to call them "Tijuana bibles,"
    but I'm sure that's no longer considered polite, what with all
    these immigrants driving around everywhere in their lowriders,
    listening to raps and shooting all the jobs). So the thought of
    Sterling writing an actual book? With words? Yes, I was definitely shocked.
    ----- The end of the citation -----

    <skipped>
    In the light of what Wiki has to say about the history of spacing
    in English, however, I now realize the tendency to employ single
    spacing within & between sentences originated with the advent of mass-market publications.

    Although, double spaces don't help if the author uses long sentences.
    For instance, look the these two sentence, by Daniel Defoe. Yes, he uses
    a double space between his sentences for clarity. ;)

    -----Beginning of the citation-----
    Author: Daniel Defoe
    THE FURTHER ADVENTURES OF ROBINSON CRUSOE
    CHAPTER I--REVISITS ISLAND

    That homely proverb, used on so many occasions in England, viz.
    "That what is bred in the bone will not go out of the flesh," was
    never more verified than in the story of my Life. Any one would
    think that after thirty-five years' affliction, and a variety of
    unhappy circumstances, which few men, if any, ever went through
    before, and after near seven years of peace and enjoyment in the
    fulness of all things; grown old, and when, if ever, it might be
    allowed me to have had experience of every state of middle life,
    and to know which was most adapted to make a man completely happy;
    I say, after all this, any one would have thought that the native
    propensity to rambling which I gave an account of in my first
    setting out in the world to have been so predominant in my
    thoughts, should be worn out, and I might, at sixty one years of
    age, have been a little inclined to stay at home, and have done
    venturing life and fortune any more.
    ----- The end of the citation -----

    I remember you like to write your messages in the formatted form
    with the aligned right margin.
    I align the right margin for various reasons, one of which is that
    I don't want the computer to muck around with my spacing. I've
    learned over the years that when I fill every line my software
    won't try to improve on it. But of course I have no control over
    what other people's software will do....: - Q
    It means the text alignment is turned on in your editor.

    No, it means I'm an old schoolteacher for whom readability is of
    far more importance than what's au courant or what others might do
    to save a buck. When I look at material intended for beginning
    readers I notice the spacing is consistent but the right margin is variable. In such cases the paragraphs are usually very short. At
    some point I gather more fluent readers may prefer the right
    margins to be consistent, even at the expense of consistency in
    spacing.

    Probably it is a good idea to do things as the majority does them. I
    mean those people whom you are writing to. ;) Although, aligned right
    margin looks nice anyway.

    Bye, Ardith!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2021

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    * Origin: nntp://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)