• An exercise in transation

    From Anton Shepelev@2:221/6 to All on Thu Jul 4 01:57:42 2019
    Since it is much easier to indicate motes in others' eyes
    than to notice beams in one's own, I will now try to
    translate a piece of artistic prose. Prepare your brushes,
    for motes are going to come aplenty. Besides the general
    clumsiness of my rendition, I am lost in tenses, weak in
    vocabulary, and often have a hard time linking a couple of
    words into a phrase, let alone composing a sentence.
    Translating an accomplished writer is more difficult than
    expressing one's own simple thoughts. I will be greateful
    if you indicate, and help me correct, my errors and
    stylistic blunders and screamers:

    Lying on wet snow in wait of a near death, Bianca suddenly
    remembered the smell of her mother woven from weak, barely
    recalled odours: of her warm thick milk, of dry hay with
    patches of withered bluebottles, of smokily smoldering
    folliage that people burned at their summer houses that very
    first autumn of her commencing life.

    The odour of smoldering leaves was one of the very first,
    and therefore special: pungent, thick, comprising all that
    the brief earthly life of any leaf can have imbided: from a
    sticky button shooting towards warmth unto a doomed descent
    to the cold body of the earth. Late September was pining
    away, and the trees were shedding leaves all around. The
    mapple covered the still green grass with a lush mandarine
    blanket. Lazily yet somehow in concert, the poplars shaked
    off their last ashen fluff. The old willow, whose bole only
    three men could embrace, littered the ground with its tiny
    leaves inelegantly and widely (? -- too wide around?). But
    in sunny places rowan trees were still posing daintily,
    clothed in dim purple, the heavy bunches of their berries
    slightly touched by nightly colds, whereas a light yolkish
    yellow entwined the tremulous aspens.

    The short train of lucid days would pass all too soon,
    cloudy mirk for long would cover the azure of the sky,
    frequent rains would soak the trees to their very cores and
    the gusty northern wind would tear off the last leaves and
    carry them off into the dirt, the puddles, the decay. Then
    winter would come. Endless. Cold.

    But Binca had not known winter, nor had she seen summer.
    Having come into the world in the beginning of September,
    she perceived autumn as the eternal state of the world
    around her.

    The sun caressed her shut eyes with its warm beams, filling
    with pink light the thin films of the (or her?) eyelids.
    She felt the kindness of that light, and her commencing life
    promised her -- a small God's creature -- love great and
    interminable.

    Her mother she did not know either. By touch and strong
    smell she found her rough nipples and fell to them, sucking
    the milk greedily, choking, and without an idea of its
    source. She felt constant hunger and hurried to satiate it.

    In the first days, she slept a lot biside her mother,
    partaking in her warmth. Whenever her mother left, she
    wouild call for her in weak, barely audible squeals. Then
    her brothers and sisters would follow suit and whine
    plaintively. And the mother would return. Carefully, lest
    she should harm the puppies, she would lay herself beside
    them.

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://fidonews.mine.nu - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/6.0)
  • From Anton Shepelev@2:221/6 to Anton Shepelev on Thu Jul 4 13:18:20 2019
    I wrote:

    Lying on wet snow in wait of a near death, Bianca
    suddenly emembered [...]

    `near' does not sound well to me, but am hard put to find
    one that fits the intended meaning of a death that will come
    soon. A quick death may be misunderstood as having a short
    duration.

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://fidonews.mine.nu - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/6.0)
  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/6 to Anton Shepelev on Thu Jul 4 13:31:28 2019
    Hi, Anton Shepelev : All!
    I read your message from 04.07.2019 02:00


    Since it is much easier to indicate motes in others' eyes than to
    notice beams in one's own, I will now try to translate a piece of artistic prose. Prepare your brushes, for motes are going to come aplenty. Besides the general clumsiness of my rendition, I am lost
    in tenses, weak in vocabulary, and often have a hard time linking a
    couple of words into a phrase, let alone composing a sentence. Translating an accomplished writer is more difficult than expressing one's own simple thoughts. I will be greateful if you indicate, and help me correct, my errors and stylistic blunders and screamers:

    As I see it, the original text is very strong and succulent. Probably, you should apply to a bilingual person -- IMHO only he/she can help you in checking your translation.

    Also you should at first tell people about the author and the novel, or at least to tell who was that El... Bianca. A puppy.

    I, of course, cannot help you. I only will drop some remarks on the first paragraph. But I want to share with you my idea how to translate books from Russian. From my experience, I've learned the main rule -- if you want translate from Russian, your English version must be two times more clear and understandable than the original. Many things that seems clear to a Russian reader are not so clear to the English one. And probably you should use more common words, for instance instead of "bole" -> "trunk".

    An exercise in transation
    I strongly recommend you to learn how to use a spell checker.

    Lying on wet snow in wait of a near death, Bianca suddenly remembered the smell of her mother woven from weak, barely recalled odours: of her warm thick milk, of dry hay with patches of withered bluebottles, of smokily smoldering folliage that people burned at
    their summer houses that very first autumn of her commencing life.

    The odour of smoldering leaves was one of the very first, and therefore special: pungent, thick, comprising all that the brief earthly life of any leaf can have imbided: from a sticky button shooting towards warmth unto a doomed descent to the cold body of
    the earth. Late September was pining away, and the trees were shedding leaves all around. The mapple covered the still green
    grass with a lush mandarine blanket. Lazily yet somehow in concert,
    the poplars shaked off their last ashen fluff. The old willow,
    whose bole only three men could embrace, littered the ground with
    its tiny leaves inelegantly and widely (? -- too wide around?). But
    in sunny places rowan trees were still posing daintily, clothed in
    dim purple, the heavy bunches of their berries slightly touched by nightly colds, whereas a light yolkish yellow entwined the tremulous aspens.

    foliage
    leaf can have _imbibed_
    to the cooling earth body.
    maple
    with a lush orange blanket
    shook off

    Bye, Anton!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2019

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://fidonews.mine.nu - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/6.0)
  • From Mark Lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Anton Shepelev on Thu Jul 4 08:25:36 2019

    On 2019 Jul 04 13:21:20, you wrote to you:

    Lying on wet snow in wait of a near death, Bianca
    suddenly emembered [...]

    `near' does not sound well to me, but am hard put to find
    one that fits the intended meaning of a death that will come
    soon. A quick death may be misunderstood as having a short
    duration.

    "near death" means close to death... in the above passage, bianca is waiting to almost die when she remembers something...

    looking up "near death experience" may help provide a little more information on the actual action but "near death" by itself just means "close to death" or "almost dead"...

    just a lowly american shooting from the hip again...

    )\/(ark

    And to this end they built themselves a stupendous super-computer which was
    so amazingly intelligent that even before its data banks had been connected
    up it had started from "I think therefore I am" and got as far as deducing
    the existence of rice pudding and income tax before anyone managed to turn
    it off.
    ... Don't ever take a fence down until you know the reason it was put up.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From Anton Shepelev@2:221/6 to Alexander Koryagin on Fri Jul 5 00:52:16 2019
    Alexander Koryagin:

    As I see it, the original text is very strong and
    succulent.

    Succulent? What does that mean?

    Probably, you should apply to a bilingual person -- IMHO
    only he/she can help you in checking your translation.

    I seek help with English.

    Also you should at first tell people about the author
    and the novel, or at least to tell who was that El...
    Bianca. A puppy.

    I know nothing about him save that he is the son of the
    great Soviet writer Albert Likhanov and is considered a
    follower of the Turgenev tradition. As to Bianca, I thought
    it would only please the reader to realise her identity
    through reading...

    From my experience, I've learned the main rule -- if you
    want translate from Russian, your English version must
    be two times more clear and understandable than the
    original.

    What translations do you find good according to this
    criterium?

    And probably you should use more common words, for
    instance instead of "bole" -> "trunk".

    "trunk" is too American and modern. It does not fit into
    the pastoral scene.

    I strongly recommend you to learn how to use a spell checker.

    If I do it, I shall unlearn spelling :P

    Your corrections:

    to the cold body of the earth =>
    to the cooling earth body.

    Why?

    with a lush mandarine blanket =>
    with a lush orange blanket

    Have you read the original, which indeed has "orange"? I
    chaged it to "mandarine" because in English "orange" is a
    common color name, whereas Likhanov used the name of the
    fruit rather than of the color and I wanted to emphasise
    that fruit association.

    shaked off =>
    shook off

    [red face]

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://fidonews.mine.nu - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/6.0)
  • From Mark Lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Anton Shepelev on Thu Jul 4 20:16:24 2019

    On 2019 Jul 05 00:55:16, you wrote to Alexander Koryagin:

    with a lush mandarine blanket =>
    with a lush orange blanket

    Have you read the original, which indeed has "orange"? I
    chaged it to "mandarine" because in English "orange" is a
    common color name, whereas Likhanov used the name of the
    fruit rather than of the color and I wanted to emphasise
    that fruit association.

    orange is also the name of a fruit in english... i love eating oranges... especially navel oranges... moreso when the navel is large enough to eat as well... like a smaller orange within a larger one :)

    )\/(ark

    And to this end they built themselves a stupendous super-computer which was
    so amazingly intelligent that even before its data banks had been connected
    up it had started from "I think therefore I am" and got as far as deducing
    the existence of rice pudding and income tax before anyone managed to turn
    it off.
    ... You know you're in YK when: the snowman begs you to take him inside at night.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/6 to Anton Shepelev on Sat Jul 6 10:54:38 2019
    Hi, Anton Shepelev : Alexander Koryagin!
    I read your message from 05.07.2019 00:55


    As I see it, the original text is very strong and succulent.
    Succulent? What does that mean?

    IMHO, rich, full of content. For instance, a girl with a succulent mouth. :-|

    Probably, you should apply to a bilingual person -- IMHO only
    he/she can help you in checking your translation.

    I seek help with English.

    When I translated, I translated the books for children, where the language was not so intricate. In your case, IMHO, the checker should understand the original, too. Also a good question -- will it be readable for English readers? An abstract example: we take a bright, succulent :) make-up of an Indian woman and apply it onto a Russian girl. Could it be compatible? Who knows.

    <skipped>
    From my experience, I've learned the main rule -- if you want
    translate from Russian, your English version must be two times
    more clear and understandable than the original.

    What translations do you find good according to this criterium?
    (criterion) I just told of my impression, that I got talking with the native English people who corrected my translations.

    And probably you should use more common words, for instance
    instead of "bole" - > "trunk".
    "trunk" is too American and modern. It does not fit into the pastoral scene.

    It is rather a question to a native English person. :)

    I strongly recommend you to learn how to use a spell checker.
    If I do it, I shall unlearn spelling: P

    A spell checker can be used only when you want it. For instance, before sending your text to somebody, for checking. :)

    Your corrections:

    to the cold body of the earth =>
    to the cooling earth body.

    Why?

    I read the original at
    https://mybook.ru/author/dmitrij-lihanov/bianca/read/
    It told us that the earth _started losing_ its warmth, but it was not cold then.

    with a lush mandarine blanket =>
    with a lush orange blanket

    Have you read the original, which indeed has "orange"? I chaged it
    to "mandarine" because in English "orange" is a common color name, whereas Likhanov used the name of the fruit rather than of the
    color and I wanted to emphasise that fruit association.

    In Russian we have the orange color which associated with orange fruit. And the author meant exactly that color ("apelsinovy", or orange, in English).

    Bye, Anton!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2019

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://fidonews.mine.nu - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/6.0)
  • From Anton Shepelev@2:221/6 to Mark Lewis on Wed Jul 10 01:13:10 2019
    )\/(ark Lewis:

    with a lush mandarine blanket => with a lush orange
    blanket
    Have you read the original, which indeed has "orange"?
    I chaged it to "mandarine" because in English "orange"
    is a common color name, whereas Likhanov used the name
    of the fruit rather than of the color and I wanted to
    emphasise that fruit association.

    orange is also the name of a fruit in english...

    Russian has separate words for the fruit and the color,
    whereas in English they are one. Likhanov used the fruit
    word to denote the color, so I wanted an English word more
    associated with the fruit than with the color, even though
    it can denote both.

    i love eating oranges... especially navel oranges...
    moreso when the navel is large enough to eat as well...
    like a smaller orange within a larger one :)

    I thought it was a kind of nameless defect, but now I know
    the English term -- and a good one, too!

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://fidonews.mine.nu - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/6.0)
  • From Mark Lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Anton Shepelev on Tue Jul 9 18:32:00 2019

    On 2019 Jul 10 01:16:10, you wrote to me:

    orange is also the name of a fruit in english...

    Russian has separate words for the fruit and the color,

    that's interesting... i'm learning something!

    can you write what the two words are? maybe i can paste them into google translate to see the differences?

    whereas in English they are one. Likhanov used the fruit word to denote the color, so I wanted an English word more associated with
    the fruit than with the color, even though it can denote both.

    i can understand that... translating things is a special gift... especially when marking subtle tings like the difference between an orange (the fruit) and an orange color...

    i love eating oranges... especially navel oranges... moreso when
    the navel is large enough to eat as well... like a smaller orange
    within a larger one :)

    I thought it was a kind of nameless defect, but now I know the
    English term -- and a good one, too!

    yep! some of them aren't so good to try to eat but when they are good, they're very good ;)

    )\/(ark

    And to this end they built themselves a stupendous super-computer which was
    so amazingly intelligent that even before its data banks had been connected
    up it had started from "I think therefore I am" and got as far as deducing
    the existence of rice pudding and income tax before anyone managed to turn
    it off.
    ... Waiting for the world's applause.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From Anton Shepelev@2:221/6 to Mark Lewis on Wed Jul 10 13:37:30 2019
    )\/(ark Lewis to Anton Shepelev:

    Russian has separate words for the fruit and the
    color,
    that's interesting... i'm learning something!

    can you write what the two words are? maybe i can paste
    them into google translate to see the differences?

    The fruit is `apel'sin' (апельсин), the color is
    `oranzhevyj' (оранжевый). Dmitry Likhanov used the
    adjective `apel'sinovyj' (апельсиновый). I give the Russian
    spellings in KOI8-R.

    i can understand that... translating things is a special
    gift... especially when marking subtle tings like the
    difference between an orange (the fruit) and an orange
    color...

    Especially especially when the orignal expresses the color
    with the word for the fruit :-)

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://fidonews.mine.nu - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/6.0)
  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/6 to Mark Lewis on Wed Jul 10 22:19:18 2019
    Hi, Mark Lewis!
    I read your message from 10.07.2019 01:28

    orange is also the name of a fruit in english...

    Russian has separate words for the fruit and the color,

    that's interesting... i'm learning something!

    can you write what the two words are? maybe i can paste them into
    google translate to see the differences?

    The orange color came to Russia from French orange fruit. It so happened that only the color remained.

    Apelsin fruit (orange fruit) came from Holland - in Russia they thought it was an apple, and they called it by the Holland word "appel". In this way we had got the word "apelsin" and "apelsinovy cvet(color)" (which, however, is more yellowish than orange color, in Russia).

    Bye, Mark!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2019

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://fidonews.mine.nu - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/6.0)
  • From Anton Shepelev@2:221/6 to Alexander Koryagin on Wed Jul 10 23:54:58 2019
    Alexander Koryagin to Anton Shepelev:

    Succulent? What does that mean?

    IMHO, rich, full of content. For instance, a girl with
    a succulent mouth. :-|

    I thought it meant prickly outside and sour inside, but you
    were right and I wrong.

    I strongly recommend you to learn how to use a spell
    checker. If I do it, I shall unlearn spelling: P

    A spell checker can be used only when you want it. For
    instance, before sending your text to somebody, for
    checking. :)

    Good idea, for it is rather annoying to see it underline
    words while typing, as it is when Visual Studio starts a
    perforce compilation and checking of your C# code before you
    have finished the code of a function. I have no spell
    checker in any of my editors: FAR, Sylpheed, and Rpad.
    Shall have to use an external tool, probably.

    I read the original at https://mybook.ru/author/dmitrij-lihanov/bianca/read/
    It told us that the earth _started losing_ its warmth,
    but it was not cold then.

    Right you are, I plumb missed it.

    Have you read the original, which indeed has "orange"?
    I chaged it to "mandarine" because in English "orange"
    is a common color name, whereas Likhanov used the name
    of the fruit rather than of the color and I wanted to
    emphasise that fruit association.

    In Russian we have the orange color which associated
    with orange fruit. And the author meant exactly that
    color ("apelsinovy", or orange, in English).

    Yes, but the usual word to denote that color would have been
    "oranzhevyj".

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://fidonews.mine.nu - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/6.0)
  • From Anton Shepelev@2:221/6 to Alexander Koryagin on Thu Jul 11 00:00:58 2019
    Alexander Koryagin:

    Apelsin fruit (orange fruit) came from Holland -- in
    Russia they thought it was an apple, and they called it
    by the Holland word "appel".

    Let me dare a conjecture (without consulting the all-knowing
    DuckDuckGo) that appelsin means not merely an apple, but
    rather a Chinese apple, even as `pomodoro' means a golden
    apple.

    In this way we had got the word "apelsin" and
    "apelsinovy cvet(color)" (which, however, is more
    yellowish than orange color, in Russia).

    Now you are teaching me Russian. I never knew the
    distinction existed. How did you learn about it, and
    whence?

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://fidonews.mine.nu - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/6.0)
  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/6 to Anton Shepelev on Sat Jul 13 21:30:32 2019
    Hi, Alexander Koryagin!
    I read your message from 11.07.2019 10:14

    A spell checker can be used only when you want it. For instance,
    before sending your text to somebody, for checking.

    Good idea, for it is rather annoying to see it underline words
    while typing, as it is when Visual Studio starts a perforce
    compilation and checking of your C# code before you have finished
    the code of a function. I have no spell checker in any of my
    editors: FAR, Sylpheed, and Rpad. Shall have to use an external
    tool, probably.

    When I used MultiEdit editor, without a spell checker, I often used MS Word for the final checks. Also I've been using Thunderbird news reader -- it has many addons, among them there are spell checkers.

    Bye, Alexander!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2019

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://fidonews.mine.nu - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/6.0)
  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/6 to Anton Shepelev on Sat Jul 13 21:34:30 2019
    Hi, Anton Shepelev!
    I read your message from 11.07.2019 00:03

    Apelsin fruit (orange fruit) came from Holland -- in Russia they
    thought it was an apple, and they called it by the Holland
    word "appel".

    Let me dare a conjecture (without consulting the all-knowing
    DuckDuckGo) that appelsin means not merely an apple, but rather a
    Chinese apple, even as!?! pomodoro' means a golden apple.

    Apel (apple, Holland) Sien(Holland, Chinese)

    In this way we had got the word "apelsin" and "apelsinovy
    cvet(color)" (which, however, is more yellowish than orange color,
    in Russia).

    Now you are teaching me Russian. I never knew the distinction
    existed. How did you learn about it, and whence?

    I read it here:
    http://tinyurl.com/y4da3o3w

    Bye, Anton!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2019

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://fidonews.mine.nu - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/6.0)