• slightly different format

    From Maurice Kinal@1:153/7001.2989 to Charles Pierson on Thu Nov 12 19:27:04 2020
    Hey Charles!

    ^-^-^-@@-^-^-^
    (..)-----;
    ||---||
    ^^ ^^
    ... A Møøse once bit my sister ...

    So another version of your tagline generator?

    A different Origin but the same routine and tagline file as before. There are a couple taglines in the mix that are not old/modern english, such as the Møøse one, and with a different format. I think there are also a couple or few that are pure ascii and could easily be mistaken as an old fashioned oneliner tagline from days of yore.

    Bottomline is that they all work ... errrr ... *should* all work. Thank you for helping confirm that.

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    ... Lot sceal mid lyswe, list mid gedefum.
    Cunning goes with corruption, craft with what is right.
    --- GNU bash, version 5.0.18(1)-release (x86_64-motorshed-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Coffin Point - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001.2989)
  • From August Abolins@2:333/808.7 to Wilfred van Velzen on Fri Nov 13 19:03:24 2020
    Hi Wilfred!

    13 Nov 20 08:46, you wrote to Maurice Kinal:

    Missing the TZUTC flag! ;-)

    As I'm not sure any software actually uses the TZUTC flag it would be better, although it's not a fidonet standard afaik...

    The time of post is not necessarily critical. But it is cool to recognize that when a post is dated and uses tzutc, and processed with a capable reader, it reveals the time relative to one's own local time.


    --- GoldED+/W32-MINGW 1.1.5-b20180707
    * Origin: ----> Point Of VeleNo BBs (http://www.velenobbs.net) (2:333/808.7)
  • From August Abolins@2:333/808.7 to Maurice Kinal on Fri Nov 13 18:58:54 2020
    Hi Maurice!

    13 Nov 20 00:11, you wrote to Wilfred Van Velzen:

    I was aware of people working on using TZUTC but have yet to see it in action.

    OpenXP does a fine job of it. It lists the messages in order (and "links" them if the msgid and replyid are present) of the flow of the conversation.

    So, even if someone replies to a message prior to someone else, but only arrives later (no matter what part of the world), it will be *first* in the thread tree.




    --- GoldED+/W32-MINGW 1.1.5-b20180707
    * Origin: ----> Point Of VeleNo BBs (http://www.velenobbs.net) (2:333/808.7)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to August Abolins on Fri Nov 13 20:48:00 2020
    Hi August,

    On 2020-11-13 19:03:25, you wrote to me:

    Missing the TZUTC flag! ;-)

    As I'm not sure any software actually uses the TZUTC flag it would be
    better, although it's not a fidonet standard afaik...

    The time of post is not necessarily critical. But it is cool to recognize that when a post is dated and uses tzutc, and processed with a capable reader, it reveals the time relative to one's own local time.

    That's what I like about it. ;)

    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to Maurice Kinal on Fri Nov 13 20:50:22 2020
    Hi Maurice,

    On 2020-11-13 10:48:57, you wrote to August Abolins:

    Anyhow it is doable but requires additional processing in order to
    honour an obsolete datetime stamp (two digit year) and a corrupted utc offset which lacks the required '+' prefix for timezones east of prime meridian.

    Again, that is not a requirement for the fidonet TZUTC flag.

    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From Maurice Kinal@1:153/7001.2989 to Wilfred Van Velzen on Fri Nov 13 12:54:10 2020
    Hey Wilfred!

    Again, that is not a requirement for the fidonet TZUTC flag.

    By default, it is for the RFC-3339 flag. Same with the full year.

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    ... Yldo beoð on eorðan æghwæs cræftig.
    Old age has power over everything on earth.
    --- GNU bash, version 5.0.18(1)-release (x86_64-motorshed-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Coffin Point - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001.2989)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to Maurice Kinal on Fri Nov 13 22:04:00 2020
    Hi Maurice,

    On 2020-11-13 12:54:10, you wrote to me:

    Again, that is not a requirement for the fidonet TZUTC flag.

    By default, it is for the RFC-3339 flag. Same with the full year.

    Indeed. But that's not the TZUTC flag. ;)

    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From Maurice Kinal@2:280/464.113 to Maurice Kinal on Fri Nov 13 23:08:22 2020
    Hallo Maurice!

    It even has the proper C0 control codes in it as per specs.

    Except you forgot to turn them on.

    Het leven is goed,
    Maurice

    ... Sorg ond slæp somod ætgædre earmne anhogan oft gebindað.
    Sorrow and sleep both together often bind the wretched solitary person.
    --- GNU bash, version 5.0.18(1)-release (x86_64-motorshed-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Little Mikey's EuroPoint - Ladysmith BC, Canada (2:280/464.113)
  • From Maurice Kinal@1:153/7001 to Wilfred Van Velzen on Fri Nov 13 22:50:32 2020
    Hey Wilfred!

    But that's not the TZUTC flag. ;)

    I forgot to turn them both on in the last reply. Let me know if it actually makes a difference. Also I took the liberty of dropping the ':' character between hours and minutes in the TZ part of the RFC-3339 flag which now perfectly matches the digits in the TZUTC flag. It makes no difference to it's enhanced usage over the both the MSG header datetime stamp with the TZUTC and vastly eliminates much code in order to make TZUTC useful.

    That's my story and I am sticking to it.

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    ... Eaðe wis man mæg witan spell and eac secgan.
    Easily may a wise man understand a story, and tell it too.
    --- GNU bash, version 5.0.18(1)-release (x86_64-motorshed-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Little Mikey's Brain - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001)
  • From Maurice Kinal@2:280/464.113 to Wilfred van Velzen on Sat Nov 14 22:00:12 2020
    Hallo Wilfred!

    UTC is correct for this node.

    Is that node located in the 0 meridian timezone?

    Nowhere near prime meridian but UTC is still the benchmark for syncing networks. All the system's times here are still UTC which makes things vastly easier for sorting and other pruposes such as scheduling network events and the such.

    I'm guessing it's not, so that wouldn't be correct...

    It is correct. Saying otherwise would be wrong such as "TZUTC: 0000" instead of "TZUTC: +0000". FTS-4008 is wrong, wrong, wrong and is the source of corruption for those east of prime meridian. The RFC-3339 flag addresses this particular major flaw in FTS-4008 and covers ALL the datetime issues including the obsolete MSG datetime stamp.

    So now that I've included TZUTC in all of the MSGs originating from here has it made any difference there in any meaningful way?

    Het leven is goed,
    Maurice

    ... ðone wisdom ðe ðe God sealde ðær ðær ðu hiene befæstan mæge, befæste.
    Wherever you can use the wisdom God gave you, use it.
    --- GNU bash, version 5.0.18(1)-release (x86_64-motorshed-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Little Mikey's EuroPoint - Ladysmith BC, Canada (2:280/464.113)
  • From Maurice Kinal@1:153/7001.2989 to Wilfred Van Velzen on Sun Nov 15 07:35:14 2020
    Hey Wilfred!

    they also know their location and offset to UTC, so they can
    present the correct localtime.

    When it presents the localtime exactly what information is it providing?

    FTS-4008 Is right by definition. It's the fidonet standard.

    My country right or wrong? FTS-4008 is a seriously flawed document. It takes a legitimate concept (utc offset) and bastardizes it for no apparent reason. It should get the heave-ho. Something like the RFC-3339 flag would be a much better approach for compensating for the current flaws in fidonet standards.

    has it made any difference there in any meaningful way?

    Only if it's not 'TZUTC: 0000'. ;)

    Within this msg is one that presents a legitimate utc offset (-0800) encased in a TZUTC flag. Does it make a difference? Also I see absolutely no location information there. I could easily be in California according to the offset. Also, also mobile systems dumping offline pkts to 1:153/7001 sould easily be anywhere in the world and it is doubtful anyone could locate it from whatever offset it presents.

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    ... Ne scyle wandian witona ænig þæt he his ælmessan ofte gesylle.
    No wise person should hesitate to give alms often.
    --- GNU bash, version 5.0.18(1)-release (x86_64-motorshed-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Coffin Point - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001.2989)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to Maurice Kinal on Sun Nov 15 17:23:26 2020
    Hi Maurice,

    On 2020-11-15 07:35:14, you wrote to me:

    they also know their location and offset to UTC, so they can
    present the correct localtime.

    When it presents the localtime exactly what information is it providing?

    Asking the question is answering it: localtime.

    FTS-4008 Is right by definition. It's the fidonet standard.

    My country right or wrong?

    What does your country have to do with it?

    FTS-4008 is a seriously flawed document.

    No it isn't. It just documents current practice, as it was in fidonet at the time it was drafted.

    It takes a legitimate concept (utc offset) and bastardizes it for no apparent reason. It should get the heave-ho. Something like the
    RFC-3339 flag would be a much better approach for compensating for the current flaws in fidonet standards.

    It is how it is in fidonet. I would say almost impossible to change. So you will just have to live with it.

    has it made any difference there in any meaningful way?

    Only if it's not 'TZUTC: 0000'. ;)

    Within this msg is one that presents a legitimate utc offset (-0800) encased in a TZUTC flag. Does it make a difference?

    Yes, now I know the real localtime when the message was written. I think that's usefull information. It makes a difference when some one writes a message in the middle of the night or during the day...


    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From Maurice Kinal@1:153/7001.2989 to Wilfred Van Velzen on Sun Nov 15 09:22:16 2020
    Hey Wilfred!

    Asking the question is answering it: localtime.

    So then it is UTC? That is localtime here and I assume there given you've already said your system's time is UTC.

    What does your country have to do with it?

    Nothing thank goodness.

    It is how it is in fidonet. I would say almost impossible to
    change. So you will just have to live with it.

    Or ignore it which is probably what I will end up doing soon. However I do not cede my right to bitch about it again in the future if it strikes my fancy.

    Also nothing is impossible even in fidonet but in the case of the obsolete MSG header's datetime stamp I think you're right about 'almost impossible'.

    I think that's usefull information.

    If that is all you require then I'd suggest the RFC-3339, or something like it, is the way to go. No harm, no foul.

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    ... Wes þu a giedda wis, wær wið willan, worda hyrde.
    Be ever wise in speech, watchful against desire; guard your words.
    --- GNU bash, version 5.0.18(1)-release (x86_64-motorshed-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Coffin Point - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001.2989)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to August Abolins on Sun Nov 15 20:42:02 2020
    Hi August,

    On 2020-11-15 20:06:13, you wrote to me:

    Where the real magic resides, I find, is in a program that can utilize
    the TZUTC info in such a way it organizes the message in true chronological order in a thread - and not based on arrival time. For instance, if don't read an echo for days, but different people write messages with true replies prior to that at different times, the
    actual order of the messages in a thread are connected to a parent
    message in the time order that people thus spoke.

    I know, and I even thought about implementing such a function in FMail. But it would be difficult to do it right. Because for instance there are messages without the TZUTC kludge. How do you sort those. I you use TZUTC 0000 as default, they will probably end up in the wrong order. I thought about creating a table for this that couples the netnumber to a particular timezone, but there probably are nets, that have nodes in different timezones. And of course there are nodes that are in nets that are not in their timezone. So lots of things that can go wrong, so I never took the time. ;)

    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to Maurice Kinal on Sun Nov 15 20:49:10 2020
    Hi Maurice,

    On 2020-11-15 09:22:17, you wrote to me:

    It is how it is in fidonet. I would say almost impossible to
    change. So you will just have to live with it.

    Or ignore it which is probably what I will end up doing soon. However I do
    not cede my right to bitch about it again in the future if it strikes my fancy.

    Of course, and I think I called you Don Quichot before. ;)

    I think that's usefull information.

    If that is all you require then I'd suggest the RFC-3339, or something like
    it, is the way to go. No harm, no foul.

    It will do for that, as long as it displays the real timezone of the user, and not 0000 when he's not in the UK.

    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to Charles Pierson on Sun Nov 15 20:53:50 2020
    Hi Charles,

    On 2020-11-15 11:48:21, you wrote to me:

    I know it isn't perfect, but most of the time it works...

    Does it actually matter whether I wrote this at 11:45 am (actual time for me) or 11:45pm?

    Yes, it's a little piece of information about the user that wrote the message. Maybe not terrible important, but still it is information...

    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to Maurice Kinal on Mon Nov 16 16:34:50 2020
    Hi Maurice,

    On 2020-11-16 06:08:10, you wrote to me:

    I know golded can when properly configured.

    If so then please explain "CHRS: UTF-8 2" with respect to FTS-5003. Also golded corrupts utf-8 characters (same with msged) when it tries to actually use them, with or without a CHRS flag. I haven't noticed if it makes adjustments when it encounters a TZUTC flag. Does it?

    I'm no expert on this. I know there are people that succesfully use golded (and maybe an external editor), to read and write messages that contain valid utf-8. The experts are in the UTF area.

    If you don't like what they do, you should join them, so you can
    change that! ;)

    I'll get right on that.

    If you're serious, there should be elections for new members in the coming months...

    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to Maurice Kinal on Mon Nov 16 16:37:14 2020
    Hi Maurice,

    On 2020-11-16 06:46:41, you wrote to me:

    I can also ask my RC to nominate him, if he wants to be
    nominated...

    Nominated for what?

    FTSC member,

    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From Maurice Kinal@1:153/7001 to Paul Quinn on Tue Nov 17 06:58:10 2020
    Hey Paul!

    Close. It's called the 'Richard Principle': promote them on to
    another suck^h^h^h^hluckless supervisor.

    Supervisor of what?

    Some sort of badge or super-secret decoder ring might help attract more suckers ... errrr ... candidates.

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    ... Ræd biþ nyttost, yfel unnyttost.
    Good advice is the most useful thing, bad the least useful.
    --- GNU bash, version 5.0.18(1)-release (x86_64-motorshed-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Little Mikey's Brain - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001)
  • From Carol Shenkenberger@1:275/100 to Maurice Kinal on Wed Jan 6 18:40:50 2021
    Re: slightly different format
    By: Maurice Kinal to Carol Shenkenberger on Fri Jan 01 2021 08:58 pm

    Hey Carol!

    Well, from what I see it's the normal resistance

    Which is much less than I usually got there when bringing up such topics in past. Mind you most (all?) of that came from the previous moderator/chairperson.

    Most interesting was all the real feedback posting the major alteration to fts-0001.016 generated within FTSC_PUBLIC. I haven't see that happen since forever?

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    ... Mon sceal... gebidan þæs he gebædan ne mæg.
    One must wait for what cannot be hastened.

    I'm a little behind there but I'll catch up.

    xxcarol
    --- SBBSecho 2.11-Win32
    * Origin: SHENK'S EXPRESS, shenks.synchro.net (1:275/100)
  • From Maurice Kinal@2:280/464.113 to Carol Shenkenberger on Wed Jan 6 20:19:58 2021
    Hey Carol!

    I'm a little behind there but I'll catch up.

    I replied to this on the node but am having some connection issues so I'm going to see what happens when I use this link. Please feel free to ignore this reply.

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    ... Ne wurðe þe næfre to þys wa, þæt ðu þe ne wene betran.
    Never become so sorrowful that you do not hope for better things.
    --- GNU bash, version 5.1.4(1)-release (x86_64-motorshed-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Little Mikey's EuroPoint - Ladysmith BC, Canada (2:280/464.113)
  • From Maurice Kinal@1:153/7001 to Carol Shenkenberger on Thu Jan 7 03:58:52 2021
    Hey Carol!

    I'm a little behind there but I'll catch up.

    It died down ... again ... so no rush as far as I can tell from this angle. I had plans to bring up gps/wireless wrt android systems but the release of android 10 put a crimp in that plan as it seems google is hell bent on pulling an apple wrt certain hardware and compatibility issues with the software I was planning to encorporate on a tablet I happen to have handy for such plans.

    Oh well. Live and learn eh?

    In the meantime I am remaining quiet ... for now. I was hoping there would be an election call to pick up the slack.

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    ... Mod sceal þe mare, þe ure mægen lytlað.
    Mind must be the greater, as our strength diminishes.
    --- GNU bash, version 5.1.4(1)-release (x86_64-motorshed-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Little Mikey's Brain - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001)
  • From Carol Shenkenberger@1:275/100 to Maurice Kinal on Sat Jan 30 12:44:58 2021
    Re: slightly different format
    By: Maurice Kinal to Carol Shenkenberger on Wed Jan 06 2021 08:19 pm

    Hey Carol!

    I'm a little behind there but I'll catch up.

    I replied to this on the node but am having some connection issues so I'm go to see what happens when I use this link. Please feel free to ignore this reply.

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    ... Ne wurðe þe næfre to þys wa, þæt ðu þe ne wene betran.
    Never become so sorrowful that you do not hope for better things.

    It's ok! I just spent a 3 week very heavy work schedule with 3 RADM briefs all within the same week. Lots of work! BBS sat to the side.
    xxcarol
    --- SBBSecho 2.11-Win32
    * Origin: SHENK'S EXPRESS, shenks.synchro.net (1:275/100)
  • From Maurice Kinal@1:153/7001 to Carol Shenkenberger on Sat Jan 30 18:24:24 2021
    -={ 2021-01-30 18:24:24.737908806+00:00 }=-

    Hey Carol!

    It's ok! I just spent a 3 week very heavy work schedule with 3
    RADM briefs all within the same week. Lots of work! BBS sat to
    the side.

    Sounds to me like standard operating procedures. From this angle it appears you didn't miss anything so I agree that 'it's ok!'

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    ... Soþ hit sylf acyþeð.
    Truth will make itself known.
    --- GNU bash, version 5.1.4(1)-release (x86_64-motorshed-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Little Mikey's Brain - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001)
  • From Carol Shenkenberger@1:275/100 to Maurice Kinal on Sat Jan 30 13:42:24 2021
    Re: slightly different format
    By: Maurice Kinal to Carol Shenkenberger on Sat Jan 30 2021 06:24 pm

    -={ 2021-01-30 18:24:24.737908806+00:00 }=-

    Hey Carol!

    It's ok! I just spent a 3 week very heavy work schedule with 3
    RADM briefs all within the same week. Lots of work! BBS sat to
    the side.

    Sounds to me like standard operating procedures. From this angle it appears you didn't miss anything so I agree that 'it's ok!'

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    ... Soþ hit sylf acyþeð.
    Truth will make itself known.

    Hehehe, just a minor spat as the FTSC election comes up, but it was Monday. See it soon!

    xxcarol
    --- SBBSecho 2.11-Win32
    * Origin: SHENK'S EXPRESS, shenks.synchro.net (1:275/100)