What is development like on a phone? Can I just write a small C++/Python/Basic/Fortran program and run it? Can I fairly easily create a basic GUI app? Use a shell? Can I parse a CSV file to create a PDF report? Write a basic model? Do any computation? Automate any workflows?
The reason that people feel they can replace their computer with their phone, is because they don't properly use either.
Shame. Computers could be so, so much better than they are now, especially in the office. Workflows are stunted and inefficient, because computer software is treated as a commodity. I have to write short programs to use at work, so I don't waste time and create errors.
In my view, they are not computers at all, if I cannot automate some basic taskts, or calculations, or manipulate data.
I've seen people use smartphones to manage data, and its usually convoluted, time consuming and awkward.
Back in my day, you you had to have a basic knowledge and be able to use command prompts, or learn to troubleshoot etc, to get things working. Even in the early 2000s, you had to know your way around Windows XP, learn about drivers, sound cards and compatibity issues to play games. Now you
ZERO input from the user. We are rapidly moving to an app based experience, with each app being self contained within itself. For example,
There are no alternatives being presented.
Andeddu wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: phones BIGGER.. computers
By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Wed Jul 29 2020 09:22 am
Shame. Computers could be so, so much better than they are now, especially in the office. Workflows are stunted and inefficient, because computer software is treated as a commodity. I have to write short programs to use at work, so I don't waste time and create errors.
In my view, they are not computers at all, if I cannot automate some basic taskts, or calculations, or manipulate data.
I've seen people use smartphones to manage data, and its usually convoluted, time consuming and awkward.
It is a shame. But your knowledge on computers is up there in the top 0.1%... everything is automated now. No one needs to know anything
about computers to carry out work productivity, play games or use their systems recreationally. Like I said in a previous post, most people (including myself to a certain extent) are entirely ignorant on
computers. You don't have to know how a TV, oven, washing machine or computer works in order to use them.
Back in my day, you you had to have a basic knowledge and be able to
use command prompts, or learn to troubleshoot etc, to get things
working. Even in the early 2000s, you had to know your way around
Windows XP, learn about drivers, sound cards and compatibity issues to play games. Now you log into Steam & double click a game in your
library to download/install it. The software tells you if can play or
not & Windows obsessively keeps your system files & sound/graphics and even BIOS drivers up to date with ZERO input from the user. We are
rapidly moving to an app based experience, with each app being self contained within itself. For example, if you download a TV show on
Netflix or Disney, you will have no idea what format you downloaded the video in, you will have no control of where it goes, and the only way
to view it is via the app itself. Same goes for gaming on EA Origin, Steam, UPlay and Epic Store, along with music apps such as Spotify &
Apple Music.
The public seem to want this automated/dumbed down approach as there's
no real push back against this heavily curated experience.
I've always liked building my own desktop PC, and still do. So for me it's always been like that, and still is like that. I don't see that changing for a while.
What do you mean by "app based experience"? Aside from drivers & things that run in the background, pretty much all software with a user interface is an application and has been like that for a long time..
Nightfox
I think you can put knowledge about computers into two broad categories.
The first is how they work mechanically, troubleshooting, maintenance. That is what you were talking about, mostly. The second is programming, data management, processing, using the tools effectively. I think the latter is what is more important for people to know, at least in some respects. Knowing how to fix some driver conflict isn't really useful, and now having to do that is a plus for 99% of the people. It is the difference between knowing how to use tools effectively to build a shed, and how to fix the nailgun.
We put all IT knowledge under "Adminstration" and forget about "operators".
But I think the problem is that people don't know how to use the tools, or how to use tools properly and effectively. Think about the standard office. You have MS office installed, and no one is really taught how to use the features, how to link Excel spreadsheets with Word so a word document could auto-populate from that data. Or having a PDF report automatically generated. Or simply even manipulating or massaging data. I see so many people doing these the really slow, manual way. Copying data from document to document by reading a PDF scan of a printout, then retyping the data into a word document, when that data is there electronically in the first place. Or people that simply can't reorganise data in a spreadsheet to work out categories and such.
Because "productivity" apps are geared towards the lower common denominator, and that a user that is not trainted, AT ALL, they are very unproductive at best. Maybe we should have "operators" who do these tasks far more effectively, who can use the more powerful features, or even architecture small scripts and tools to glue things together.
For consumer stuff, what we have now is fine. For recreation, computers are great. But for productivity, they absolutely suck, and not because they aren't powerful, or the programming languages aren't good, but because they aren't employed effectively.
That's pretty cool. I have never built a PC... as you probalby know I am a laptop user and haven't had a dedicated desktop PC since 2004. I suppose you've saved yourself a fair bit of cash over the years putting your PCs together?
By app based I mean a highly curated experience like you'd find on iOS or Android. Apps don't require file managers & you have no control over your media, which is why most people have no idea about file formats.
Andeddu wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: phones BIGGER.. computers
By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Thu Jul 30 2020 09:05 pm
I think you can put knowledge about computers into two broad categories.
The first is how they work mechanically, troubleshooting, maintenance. That is what you were talking about, mostly. The second is programming, data management, processing, using the tools effectively. I think the latter is what is more important for people to know, at least in some respects. Knowing how to fix some driver conflict isn't really useful, and now having to do that is a plus for 99% of the people. It is the difference between knowing how to use tools effectively to build a shed, and how to fix the nailgun.
We put all IT knowledge under "Adminstration" and forget about "operators".
But I think the problem is that people don't know how to use the tools, or how to use tools properly and effectively. Think about the standard office. You have MS office installed, and no one is really taught how to use the features, how to link Excel spreadsheets with Word so a word document could auto-populate from that data. Or having a PDF report automatically generated. Or simply even manipulating or massaging data. I see so many people doing these the really slow, manual way. Copying data from document to document by reading a PDF scan of a printout, then retyping the data into a word document, when that data is there electronically in the first place. Or people that simply can't reorganise data in a spreadsheet to work out categories and such.
Because "productivity" apps are geared towards the lower common denominator, and that a user that is not trainted, AT ALL, they are very unproductive at best. Maybe we should have "operators" who do these tasks far more effectively, who can use the more powerful features, or even architecture small scripts and tools to glue things together.
For consumer stuff, what we have now is fine. For recreation, computers are great. But for productivity, they absolutely suck, and not because they aren't powerful, or the programming languages aren't good, but because they aren't employed effectively.
I've seen a huge amount of unnecessary duplication at work because
people are unaware that certain programmes are linked. If you let them know, they shrug their shoulders and continue doing what they're
doing... productivity applications can be very complex, so once a user
is proficient to some degree, they're unlikely to take in any more information or change their behaviour. I reckon they're just happy they can do the job; even if their methods are inefficient/ineffective.
Trained operators are rare to come across and I too get that sinking feeling when I am up against a system I am unfamiliar with... I try to learn the basics and get on with it, just like everybody else.
All it takes is someone to develop it, document it and teach it. I've seen people do more complex tasks, because they learned how to do it. The
Long ago (in the 80s and 90s, and probably into the mid 2000s), it used to be that you'd save a lot of money by building your own desktop PC. I'm not so sure that's true anymore. There are indeed expensive high-end desktops and you might be able to save some money building your own, but there are also many mid-range desktops that are decent computers, and probably cheaper than building your own. For the lasst couple PCs I've built for myself, I've tended to lean toward somewhat higher-end specs.. I haven't really compared the price of my own built vs. a similar pre-made desktop in a long time.
Underminer wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: phones BIGGER.. computers
By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Fri Jul 31 2020 08:02 pm
All it takes is someone to develop it, document it and teach it. I've seen people do more complex tasks, because they learned how to do it. The
Humans are very good at repetitive tasks, even if somewhat complex,
once taught. Most humans are really bad at non standard tasks and
thinking outside the box. I have to keep telling myself that when
dealing with and developing for people since I, and I'm sure most of us
in this community, run 180 degrees to that - I can't stand anything too repetitive and love figuring new things out and developing new systems.
Underminer wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: phones BIGGER.. computers
By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Fri Jul 31 2020 08:02 pm
All it takes is someone to develop it, document it and teach it.
I've seen people do more complex tasks, because they learned how to
do it. The
Humans are very good at repetitive tasks, even if somewhat complex,
once taught. Most humans are really bad at non standard tasks and
thinking outside the box. I have to keep telling myself that when
dealing with and developing for people since I, and I'm sure most of
us in this community, run 180 degrees to that - I can't stand
anything too
repetitive and love figuring new things out and developing new systems.
I don't like repetition either. This is why you need to take those people that want to solve problems, and can solve problems, to formulate the new systems and procedures, so that their experience can be turned into a repetitive, standardised task for others.
I created a DOS based tablet weighing system for use at a manufacturing site. That program was in use for years, after I left, and when I got a job there again, they were still using it.
Even though it was DOS based, there was a very standard way of using it, and it was self documenting. A status bar at the bottom told you what keys did what.
That's probably a good alternative if you don't want a mass-produced computer from HP, Dell, or other brands but don't want to build it yourself.
Nightfox
I think premium gaming brands are trustworthy. They tend not to scrimp on components.... the danger is if you go for a mid-level gaming PC. They spend so much of the cash trying to budget a decent graphics card, everything else ends up being cheap tosh.
MRO wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: phones BIGGER.. computers
By: Dennisk to Underminer on Sat Aug 01 2020 07:13 pm
Underminer wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: phones BIGGER.. computers
By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Fri Jul 31 2020 08:02 pm
All it takes is someone to develop it, document it and teach it.
I've seen people do more complex tasks, because they learned how to
do it. The
Humans are very good at repetitive tasks, even if somewhat complex,
once taught. Most humans are really bad at non standard tasks and
thinking outside the box. I have to keep telling myself that when
dealing with and developing for people since I, and I'm sure most of
us in this community, run 180 degrees to that - I can't stand
anything too
repetitive and love figuring new things out and developing new systems.
I don't like repetition either. This is why you need to take those people that want to solve problems, and can solve problems, to formulate the new systems and procedures, so that their experience can be turned into a repetitive, standardised task for others.
I created a DOS based tablet weighing system for use at a manufacturing site. That program was in use for years, after I left, and when I got a job there again, they were still using it.
Even though it was DOS based, there was a very standard way of using it, and it was self documenting. A status bar at the bottom told you what keys did what.
i do a lot of repetitive tasks. in some ways it's harder than 'complex' tasks.
your mind wanders and you can be distracted by someone coming by and bothering you and you can miss something.
i have to make these kits sometimes that have many small parts, i dont have enough room to lay them all out to pick them, and i have to make
sure that i practically turn myself into a robot to make sure every
single one is correct.
i also have to stop and count the parts after a certain amount to make sure i didnt forget something or give too many. something complex i
can solve real quick. this is a pain in the ass. ---
= Synchronet = ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
drunken buddies saying hi or checking out the hot ladies in the line or dancing to the band playing can slow the entire process to a halt. We'd get volunteers , but most are the bar fixtures that feel guilty the other guys are working hard, an d think it's a simple process to do while half
...same goes for digital media, if I want to listen to music or
watch movies/TV shows, I click on the relevant app and there I go...
no pissing about with media players (such as WMP, Winamp, QuickTime,
Real Player, Div X or Adobe, etc...).
Can you say iTunes? :) They had the idea from the get go.
Ah.. so the tablets become a cluttered mess of icons or multiple screens
of icons that you have swipe through to find what you are looking for. Lovely. :(
I use my browser to visit numerous sites. A separate cutesy icon for each and one of them on my desktop would be insane. A browser history allows
me to find a site I've visited before. A bookmark saves a favorite site.
To eliminate a browser sounds ridiculous.
Yes... a dedicated app can provide features that the service can
specialize in. For the best experience with Spotify for example, the separate program is a better choice because it doesn't have to cope with
the limitations of a particular browser.
You got me thinking of Habitat for Humanity housing projects. It's great to see all these volunteers from businesses show up, but how many that are inexperienced or out of their comfort zone are actually slowing things down or creating reasons for re-work? I can swing a hammer or run a saw, bu by no means will I be as fast or precise as someone who builds houses
You got me thinking of Habitat for Humanity housing projects. It's great Mo>> to see all these volunteers from businesses show up.. [snip]
i would like to see one of those operations. do they have them do the
dumb stuff, or do they have them do flooring, plumbing etc with
guidance?
whats strange is in my city those houses end up getting sold. those
people dont want to live in them apparently. or they cant handle
having a house.
whats strange is in my city those houses end up getting sold. those people dont want to live in them apparently. or they cant handle having a house.
whats strange is in my city those houses end up getting sold. those
people dont want to live in them apparently. or they cant handle
having a house.
Although they get the house to live in, the terms "no down payment, no interest, affordable mortgage geared to be no more than 30 percent of income" ..is still too much or some families and can't bear it for too
This thread deviated from "repetitive DOS tasks" to "repetitive volunteer tasks". Perhaps this branch of the convo should end or move elsewhere.
Re: phones BIGGER.. computers
By: MRO to Moondog on Mon Aug 03 2020 06:44 pm
whats strange is in my city those houses end up getting sold. those
people dont want to live in them apparently. or they cant handle
having a house.
While I don't know the ins and outs of the program and could be totally off base with this speculation, there's a LOT that goes into having a house aside from just the purchase price, both financially and in terms of general responsibility.
ensure people are housed - that's decency and imparative to allowing them dignity. But to be successful you need things like that to be part of an overarching strategy of either helping or allowing people to get their feet back properly under themselves before saddling them with the additional responsibilities and liabilities of home ownership.
If a person doesn't have experience with building trades, they ptu them to work picking up trash, sweeping, painting, or other work you can pull anyone of fthe street to do. When scheduling volunteer days, the stage of constructi on is listed, so unless you want to compact or level sand the day they are pouring a concrete floor or driveway pad, you may want to pick a day later in the build. In some cases multiple builfs are going on, so there's lots of lit tle things than can be done.
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