In the United States, there is a long-standing tradition - to the founding o the Republic - of denigrating outsiders and the established cultural or racial groups feeling "threatened" that they are being "replaced" by these outsiders, biologically and numerically. That this is now called a 'conspiracy,' in my view, is to do so without appreciating the history of ho we have marginalized outsiders before they finally integrated in the melting pot.
Whether it was the Irish of the 1920s, the Italians of the 1950s, or the Hispanics - there has always been resistance until finally there is a firm acceptance that there is more than brings us together than sets us apart. Ordinarily, the melting pot works if there is integration and, well, everyon "melts" into the new diverse identify of the United States.
Where I see the true problem is that "replacement" persists so long as each cultural identity expresses itself at the expense of the inclusive and diversive whole.
Kaelon wrote to All <=-
@MSGID: <628CE430.59740.dove-deb@vert.synchro.net>
In the United States, there is a long-standing tradition - to the
founding of the Republic - of denigrating outsiders and the established cultural or racial groups feeling "threatened" that they are being "replaced" by these outsiders, biologically and numerically. That this
is now called a 'conspiracy,' in my view, is to do so without
appreciating the history of how we have marginalized outsiders before
they finally integrated in the melting pot.
Whether it was the Irish of the 1920s, the Italians of the 1950s, or
the Hispanics - there has always been resistance until finally there is
a firm acceptance that there is more than brings us together than sets
us apart. Ordinarily, the melting pot works if there is integration
and, well, everyone "melts" into the new diverse identify of the United States.
Where I see the true problem is that "replacement" persists so long as each cultural identity expresses itself at the expense of the inclusive and diversive whole.
A good example of not assimilating is having to push#1 for english and #2 for espanol. If you work in retail, speaking Spanish is a hiring point. Mandarin, Bahasa, Tagalog, Yoruba, Hindi or German, not so much
You also seem to be missing the point. Making certain countries "melting pots" melts the demographics of those countries. Do you see China, Kenya, Nigeria, Korea, Vietnam becoming "melting pots"?
Kaelon wrote to Boraxman <=-
You also seem to be missing the point. Making certain countries "melting pots" melts the demographics of those countries. Do you see China, Kenya, Nigeria, Korea, Vietnam becoming "melting pots"?
Certainly not. These countries all have monolithic and oppressive cultures, where foreign populations are either brutally subjugated or placed in internment camps and truly become enslaved peoples or even
worse - like the ethnically cleansed peoples of Western China, for example.
My basic point is that "replacement theory," as discussed in populist
U.S. circles, is a racist ideology that is at odds with the entire historical trend of the American melting pot and identity as an integrating and welcoming society for immigrants. That it is applied to describe the fear that White Americans should have for every immigrant allowed into the country, as if that somehow displaces or "replaces"
them by erasing their cultural representation, has no basis in American history.
There are countless examples of how welcoming immigrants and
encouraging them to integrate and assimilate into American society was directly responsible for advancing the technological supremacy of the United States - from rescuing Jews from Germany's brutal holocaust
leading directly to Jewish-Americans helping advance the Manhattan
Project to defeat the Japanese, to encouraging the dispossessed and persecuted peoples of Eastern Europe being directly responsible for the creation of the modern American industrial state at the end of the 19th Century. _____
How do you account for the same phenomenon elsewhere, outside of the US? Such as my home city?
Sorry, as I've said, I've been to many cities, and SEEN the replacement. If you want, you can go to Paris, to London, to Birmingham, to Melbourne, to Brussels, to Marseilles, and see this for yourself.
We are not talking about abstract things like unfounded fear, ideology or ideas, but an observable and real change.
Again, the world doesn't revolve around what Americans think.
My basic point is that "replacement theory," as discussed in populist U.S. cir
es, is a racist ideology that is at odds with the entire historical trend of t
American melting pot and identity as an integrating and welcoming society for
mmigrants.
That it is applied to describe the fear that White Americans should h
ave for every immigrant allowed into the country, as if that somehow displaces
r "replaces" them by erasing their cultural representation, has no basis in Am
ican history.
There are countless examples of how welcoming immigrants and encouraging them
integrate and assimilate into American society was directly responsible for a
ancing the technological supremacy of the United States - from rescuing Jews f
m Germany's brutal holocaust leading directly to Jewish-Americans helping adva
e the Manhattan Project to defeat the Japanese, to encouraging the dispossesse
and persecuted peoples of Eastern Europe being directly responsible for the cr
tion of the modern American industrial state at the end of the 19th Century.
Kaelon wrote to All <=-Some think if we did not abort as many children as we do, we don't need much immigration.
Where I see the true problem is that "replacement" persists so long as each cultural identity expresses itself at the expense of the inclusive and diversive whole.
Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Moondog to Kaelon on Tue May 24 2022 03:19 pm
A good example of not assimilating is having to push#1 for english and #2 for espanol. If you work in retail, speaking Spanish is a hiring point. Mandarin, Bahasa, Tagalog, Yoruba, Hindi or German, not so much
Completely agree. As a U.S.-born Cuban-American, I was always taught by my arn the language are intentionally deciding to put up barriers and not integ _____
-=: Kaelon :=-
Kaelon wrote to Boraxman <=-
Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Boraxman to Kaelon on Wed May 25 2022 08:27 pm
How do you account for the same phenomenon elsewhere, outside of the US? Such as my home city?
See below.
Sorry, as I've said, I've been to many cities, and SEEN the replacement. If you want, you can go to Paris, to London, to Birmingham, to Melbourne, to Brussels, to Marseilles, and see this for yourself.
I go on business every month to Europe and Australia, and for over 30 years been traveling to Spain and France to visit family and friends. Europe has, at best, a mixed bag with assimilating populations; there
is an uneven melting pot. Case in point: France, though being complicit
as an Imperial power in Africa (see, especially, Algeria), has imposed cultural and legal restrictions on immigrants (such as the headscarf
ban, schooling mandates) without also providing them with economic assistance and opportunity (such as language and skills training) that
it has, in the case of Marseilles, created a parallel society of un-integrated foreigners who are French-people in waiting. In
contrast, Spain's integration of Moroccans into Andalusia is very
American in its melting-pot style approach.
In short - creating a melting pot has to be a proactive act of
integrating a population. Reactively mistreating an immigrant
population includes passing laws that restrict their cultural and religious values, isolating them from the economic and educational opportunities that would promote their integration and advancement,
and, of course, blaming crackpot racist conspiracy theories that white people are being systematically replaced by non-whites. Research shows that these are nativist tropes, and that the underlying social and political behaviors actually create racial tension as per the above.
We are not talking about abstract things like unfounded fear, ideology or ideas, but an observable and real change.
Because Replacement Theory was invented as a consequence of France's post-colonial demographic failures, the best place to start is being educated on how France's own demographers and sociologists have
rejected Renaud Camus' paranoid racist fantasies. I recommend you
start with Jenkins, Cecil (2017). A Brief History of France. Little,
Brown Book Group. PT342. ISBN 978-1-4721-4027-2.
Again, the world doesn't revolve around what Americans think.
I start with the United States because (a) this is where I was born and live, and can speak best about what is in the American political mainstream; and (b) the United States, despite its flirtations with xenophobia and nativism, is the world's most successful multicultural melting pot, and can provide examples both of how it is done well (the Irish, Italians, Caribbean Hispanics, Portuguese, etc.), and how it is done poorly (African Americans, Central and South Americans, Native Americans, etc.). _____
-=: Kaelon :=-
I go on business every month to Europe and Australia, and for over 30 years been traveling to Spain and France to visit family and friends. Europe has, at best, a mixed bag with assimilatin
populations; there is an uneven melting pot. Case in point: France, though being complicit as an Imperial power in Africa (see, especially, Algeria), has imposed cultural and legal restricti
on immigrants (such as the headscarf ban, schooling mandates) without also providing them with economic assistance and opportunity (such as language and skills training) that it has, in the
case of Marseilles, created a parallel society of un-integrated foreigners who are French-people in waiting. In contrast, Spain's integration of Moroccans into Andalusia is very American in
its melting-pot style approach.
I think you are hitting a nail on the head without realizing it, though. Yes, there are some who are racist that believe that any foreigner being brought into another country is "replacement" but, as you pointed out in another message, you fully understand the reason for assimilating, or melting into, the American society.
I think the issue comes with the folks that you also described, who want
to be here but don't want to be a part of society, and some that even
expect society to change to their imported values. That is the "replacement" that seems to be going on these days.
It has no basis in history, but what about in the "right now"? Our government seems to have no issues letting people in of certain
ethnicities, while others (most Asians) don't seem as welcome. Even their lack of issues for most hispanics/latinos does not necessarily extend to Cubans or Brazilians.
The key words are "integrate and assimilate."
The common theme is that if the country is White/Western, it MUST become diverse.
Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Kaelon to Boraxman on Wed May 25 2022 03:18 pm
I go on business every month to Europe and Australia, and for over 30 yea populations; there is an uneven melting pot. Case in point: France, thoug on immigrants (such as the headscarf ban, schooling mandates) without als case of Marseilles, created a parallel society of un-integrated foreigner its melting-pot style approach.
I can't talk much about France, but regarding integration of Moroccans into
The areas with the most Moroccans tend to be the areas where people votes th Barcelona area is turning to Detroit-lite because ethnic gangs have started
Meanwhile, areas with Russian immigrants don't have anti-Russian parties cla Russian neighbourhoods and villages, to the point you would say some towns a
I personally think integration is overhyped. What a lot of people seems to w groups that is just not going to happen. In fact, wanting that to happen is Spaniards you are a modern day colonialist imposing your culture on others).
The ironic thing is that many African immigrants come with ideas that are un engineer them and turn them into something they are currently not.
On the other hand, I cannot think of clear examples that made Irish, Italian for Saudi Arabia because the first thing a Spaniard would do is try to produ to confine Spaniards into special camps over there.
My point is that some cultures and worldwiews are compatible and others are to your own culture. However, if you want to get people impressed you will h systems, feudal policies, ritual mutilation and so on). I bet you won't be a
--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
Dumas Walker wrote to BORAXMAN <=-
@MSGID: <628FE257.25045.dove-deb@capitolcityonline.net>
@REPLY: <628F5AB7.9038.dove-deb@pharcyde.org>
The common theme is that if the country is White/Western, it MUST become diverse.
And if it is a non-white country that has too much white immigration,
it is not called diversity, it is called something derogatory.
Arelor wrote to Kaelon <=-b
@MSGID: <628FC97F.6879.dove-debate@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
@REPLY: <628EAB28.59762.dove-deb@vert.synchro.net>
Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Kaelon to Boraxman on
Wed May 25 2022 03:18 pm
I go on business every month to Europe and Australia, and for over 30 years
een traveling to Spain and France to visit family and friends. Europe has, at best, a mixed bag with assimilatinbe
populations; there is an uneven melting pot. Case in point: France, though
ing complicit as an Imperial power in Africa (see, especially,pr
Algeria), has imposed cultural and legal restricti
on immigrants (such as the headscarf ban, schooling mandates) without also
oviding them with economic assistance and opportunity (such as language and skills training) that it has, in thewh
case of Marseilles, created a parallel society of un-integrated foreigners
o are French-people in waiting. In contrast, Spain's integration of Moroccans into Andalusia is very American in
its melting-pot style approach.
I can't talk much about France, but regarding integration of Moroccans into Andaluca...
The areas with the most Moroccans tend to be the areas where people
votes the most for parties with anti-immigration programs. This alone suggests integration is not going that well. The Barcelona area is
turning to Detroit-lite because ethnic gangs have started mugging
people in broad daylight after they started soaking immigrants in
without a plan as to what to do with them.
Meanwhile, areas with Russian immigrants don't have anti-Russian
parties claiming for them to be kicked out despite the fact many of
those Russians are NOT trying to integrate (living in Russian neighbourhoods and villages, to the point you would say some towns are Russian).
I personally think integration is overhyped. What a lot of people seems
to want from immigrants is to come in, forget their culture and adopt
the local customes. I think that for a lot of groups that is just not going to happen. In fact, wanting that to happen is anti-diverse (ie.
if you want to import Moroccans and strip their culture away from them
so they are just Spaniards you are a modern day colonialist imposing
your culture on others).
The ironic thing is that many African immigrants come with ideas that
are unnaceptable by Spanish standards, such as partaking in genital mutilation. In order for them to fit in you have to engineer them and
turn them into something they are currently not.
On the other hand, I cannot think of clear examples that made Irish, Italian and Polish immigrants unnaceptable to American Standards. Meanwhile, a Spaniard would not be an acceptable immigrant for Saudi Arabia because the first thing a Spaniard would do is try to produce
beer in some cellar, which for Arab authorities is a very unacceptable breach of social manners. In fact they tend to confine Spaniards into special camps over there.
My point is that some cultures and worldwiews are compatible and others are not. It is easy to brag that your nation is importing Italians successfully without issues when Italians are similar to your own
culture. However, if you want to get people impressed you will have to import people with very divergent values (such as cultures who partake
in arranged marriages, imposed class systems, feudal policies, ritual mutilation and so on). I bet you won't be able to, and if you do, it
would be by turning those people into something else...
--- DUMAS WALKER wrote --- > The common theme is that if the country is White/Western, it MUST become > diverse.
And if it is a non-white country that has too much white immigration, it
is not called diversity, it is called something derogatory.
But the question is, WHY? Why is it that we are asked to partake in this social engineering? You are taking the need to do this at face value, based upon a very specific American ideology.
As I have pointed out, America is not the world (though it is incredibly arrogant and imperialistic, to be sure), and the 'melting pot' that your country has decided is its manifest destiny isn't necessarily a goal elsewhere.
You are taking it as a 'given' that we must become melting pots, and the issue is whether we do this succesfully or not. My argument is that the creation of the melting pot IS a moral hazard, regardless of whether it is done "successfully" or not.
If the theories are "crackpot theories", the please tell me, at what point can immigration in these countries stop?
What %ge does the white population need to drop to, in order for it be acceptable to change immigration policy so that it doesn't drop further? In ANY Western/European country?
The areas with the most Moroccans tend to be the areas where people votes the most for parties with anti-immigration programs. This alone suggests integration is not going that well. The Barcelona area is turning to Detroit-lite because ethnic gangs have started mugging people in broad daylight after they started soaking immigrants in without a plan as to what to do with them.
I personally think integration is overhyped. What a lot of people seems to want from immigrants is to come in, forget their culture and adopt the local customes. I think that for a lot of groups that is just not going to happen. In fact, wanting that to happen is anti-diverse (ie. if you want to import Moroccans and strip their culture away from them so they are just
Spaniards you are a modern day colonialist imposing your culture on others).
The ironic thing is that many African immigrants come with ideas that are unnaceptable by Spanish standards, such as partaking in genital mutilation. In order for them to fit in you have to engineer them and turn them into something they are currently not.
The common theme is that if the country is White/Western, it MUST become diverse.
And if it is a non-white country that has too much white immigration, it is not called diversity, it is called something derogatory.
Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: boraxman to Kaelon on Thu May 26 2022 08:45 pm
But the question is, WHY? Why is it that we are asked to partake in this social engineering? You are taking the need to do this at face value, ba upon a very specific American ideology.
The fact that you even pose this question reflects that you view the world - and your country - in racially monolithic terms. If you are interested in advancing one race at the cost of another race, then simply embrace your rac or racialist identity, rather than bristling at the term. It is, simply put nativist (at best) and racist (at worst) to state that immigration is a form "social engineering," when in fact, countries that endure immigration are complicit in the factors that led up to immigration being "forced" upon it.
My general impression of Barcelona and Catalunya in general, is that the suppression of Catalan identity - seen as a threat to the overarching Spanis identity - is a far more serious threat to Spain's cultural values than the permissible importation of Moroccans into the region. Nevertheless, the formation of Spain consists of largely unassimilated regional powers from th middle ages which worked cooperatively (and today, autonomously) for the ide of the modern Spanish State. This only works if the idea of an overarching Spain prevails, and while it certainly was forced upon the population throug Monarchy and Fascism, today, the democratic experiment is producing uneven results that have nothing to do with immigration and everything to do with failed assimilation of languages and cultures.
"Diversity" just means non-white. That is explicit now. People refer to suburbs where there is significant number of non-European/non-Anglos as "diverse", even if they are all Indian. There are people of a "diverse" background where they really mean non-Anglo, and generally, non-European.
I've meant to ask my companies HR team whether I count as "Diverse" being European, but not Anglo.
--- DUMAS WALKER wrote --- > The common theme is that if the country is White/Western, it MUST become > diverse.
And if it is a non-white country that has too much white immigration, it
is not called diversity, it is called something derogatory.
Colonialism?
I get the impression that some European immigrants were greeted poorly because they dressed and spoke differently, had funny sounding names, and some practices from the old country may have seemed alien or backward to Americans that were a generation or more separated from the old countries.
--- DUMAS WALKER wrote --- > The common theme is that if the country is White/Western, it MUST become > diverse.
And if it is a non-white country that has too much white immigration, it is not called diversity, it is called something derogatory.
Colonialism?
I get the impression that some European immigrants were greeted poorly because they dressed and spoke differently, had funny sounding names, and some practices from the old country may have seemed alien or backward to Americans that were a generation or more separated from the old countries.
The Irish were poorly treated in many areas, as were some Eastern Europeans and Italians.
non-whites in your country (again, a racist perspective) - then you need to confront the demographic failures of your country. It starts with birth rat (and this is controversial) but until your country generates 2,100 births fo every 1,000 women, it in effect cannot replace its population to stay population neutral. Most Western Countries have abysmal birth rates (born,
Kaelon wrote to boraxman <=-
But the question is, WHY? Why is it that we are asked to partake in this social engineering? You are taking the need to do this at face value, based upon a very specific American ideology.
The fact that you even pose this question reflects that you view the
world - and your country - in racially monolithic terms. If you are interested in advancing one race at the cost of another race, then
simply embrace your racist or racialist identity, rather than bristling
at the term. It is, simply put, nativist (at best) and racist (at
worst) to state that immigration is a form of "social engineering,"
when in fact, countries that endure immigration are complicit in the factors that led up to immigration being "forced" upon it.
If you want to halt immigration altogether (which seems to be what you
are advocating here - you don't want a "melting pot," and you also
don't want non-whites in your country (again, a racist perspective) -
then you need to confront the demographic failures of your country. It starts with birth rate (and this is controversial) but until your
country generates 2,100 births for every 1,000 women, it in effect
cannot replace its population to stay population neutral. Most Western Countries have abysmal birth rates (born, primarily, out of economic factors - not societal ones), and so, you should consider making it
more economically appealing for men and women to procreate. Parental leave, social safety nets, childcare, and broader incentives for
training and enabling populations are multi-generational investments.
But as the Nordic countries will show, they can be successfully
applied.
Your agenda is pretty clear. You view immigration as a threat to the cultural identity of your country; there is certainly merit in
discussing how countries that are incapable of building true melting
pots are threatened by unassimilating populations (like France's
muslims, or Germany's turkic populations). But Western European
countries are generally complicit in the factors that led to the uptick
in immigration to begin with: such as France's imperial ambitions in Africa leading to vast destabilization of the magreb and sub-saharan region, or Italy's brutal occupation of Ethiopia and interference in Lybia. Europeans haven't been willing to pay reparations to those countries, or invest in African development, and so you have a
situation where entire populations are trapped in failing states that
the Europeans raped and pillaged as recently as the 1960s.
I think you have a beef with your country's legislative policies, and
so you should take it up in the political process. Some countries have effectively halted or redirected immigration (see: Austria and Hungary) only to discover massive shortfalls in talent, population, and/or tax-bases. White Europeans haven't generally taken the steps necessary
to create monolithically racial states the way that the Asians
culturally do, but again, I would point to the Nordic example, which emphasizes integration and assimilation but discourages immigration through raising birthrates of its own population.
Kaelon wrote to Dumas Walker <=-
@MSGID: <62910054.59783.dove-deb@vert.synchro.net>
@REPLY: <628FE257.25045.dove-deb@capitolcityonline.net>
Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Dumas Walker to BORAXMAN on
Thu May 26 2022 04:19 pm
The common theme is that if the country is White/Western, it MUST become diverse.
And if it is a non-white country that has too much white immigration, it is not called diversity, it is called something derogatory.
I would argue that there are very few White/Western countries that
aren't facing demographic crisis that, unfortunately, makes them
beholden to immigrants for all sorts of reasons (population
replacement, chief among them, but so, too, are economic needs). The United States also has this problem with Central and Southern Americans
-- in sharp contrast to the fully-assimilated Latin / Caribbean
Americans -- because it relies upon Central and Southern Americans to serve as an economic under-class and labor force population.
These demographic crises are caused by a lot of factors, but chief
among them are the creation of imperial dependencies upon non-native populations for a variety of reasons. Conversely, White countries that never engaged in imperial ambitions and thus became dependent (economically or numerically) on non-White populations -- such as Switzerland, Finland, Sweden, and Norway -- aren't called racist for maintaining their white culture. They are just seen as not having been complicit in the factors that led to the collapse of their own
demographic stability and the brutalization of foreign populations.
Also I find accusing countries that take immigrants of being the cause of the flow of immigrants to be outright victim shaming. The Califato also raped and pillaged the folks of the area which today is Spain and Portugal but they didn't get a mass migration from Europe as a result.
I certainly would be more sympathetic towards Catalonians if they weren't defacto nazies. I am fine if a region wants to vote to leave - I am a firm believer that power must be atomized - but when the people needing the voting spends so much political time proclaiming the ethnical superiority of Catalonians over everybody else, it is hard to support that people.
Sure, in Spain we could keep on multiplying like rabbits. However, we could not maintain our offspring in an environment considered acceptable by current Spanish standards. There is simply no demand for more people to exist.
Now you are resorting to name-calling?? It was only a matter of time before you trotted out that old canard.
By the way, the Arab world was imperialistic, as were the Mongols, and if you think that the first nations of Australia, America, or the peoples in Sub-Saharan Africa lived in peace and harmony, you have a skewed view of history. They didn't attain the same level of imperialism not because of their virtues, but lack of technical capacity to do so.
Dumas Walker wrote to BORAXMAN <=-
@MSGID: <628FE257.25045.dove-deb@capitolcityonline.net>
@REPLY: <628F5AB7.9038.dove-deb@pharcyde.org>
The common theme is that if the country is White/Western, it MUST become diverse.
And if it is a non-white country that has too much white immigration, it is not called diversity, it is called something derogatory.
"Diversity" just means non-white. That is explicit now. People refer to suburbs where there is significant number of non-European/non-Anglos as "diverse", even if they are all Indian. There are people of a "diverse" background where they really mean non-Anglo, and generally, non-European.
I've meant to ask my companies HR team whether I count as "Diverse" being European, but not Anglo.
2. Provide better integration and assimilation services: from language and skills training, to social welfare programming, and criminal justice reform aggressively manage immigrant populations.immigrants free training at the expense of the tax payer will automatically make the tax payer ask why should tax payers cover those expenses when the training of natives themsleves is so lackluster to begin with.
3. Re-think its foreign aid policies to ensure that countries that it border are stable and successful.
The United States has a mixed record on all of these traits, as well, and fo political (partisan) and economic reasons, it favors an unstable Central and South America but prefers a stable and successful Caribbean.
_____
Results are a mixed bag as summarizer earlier. Not to mention that giving
The job of a Prime Minister is to defend the interests of his country'spopulation, not to be the saviour of the world and solve the issues of their neighbors, *specially* if neighbors and regular collaborators are not trustworthy or outright backstabby. South American countries begging for rich countries to invest in infrastructure for them and then attempting to nationalize the infrastructure without offering compensation are a worn out trope already, for example.
Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Arelor to Kaelon on Fri May 27 2022 01:37 pm
I certainly would be more sympathetic towards Catalonians if they weren't defacto nazies. I am fine if a region wants to vote to leave - I am a fir believer that power must be atomized - but when the people needing the voting spends so much political time proclaiming the ethnical superiority Catalonians over everybody else, it is hard to support that people.
I don't necessarily agree that regions of Spain (or any country, for that matter) should be allowed to just "vote" to leave; elections are messy business, and they rarely actually reflect the overriding will of the population (see, for example, Brexit and even the Scottish Independence Referenda). However, I do think that if things are serious, people should b prepared to expend treasure -and- blood to achieve their stated political ai I think it highly unlikely, if not impossible, that Catalonians will be interested in the business of secession to actually see it through. However much like the Basques, they have legitimate economic grievances that can be addressed by Madrid to keep them engaged. Almost no one talks about Basque separatism now, because of how effectively Madrid intervened economically in Pais Basco.
_____
-=: Kaelon :=-
Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Arelor to Kaelon on Sat May 28 2022 05:25 am
Sure, in Spain we could keep on multiplying like rabbits. However, we cou not maintain our offspring in an environment considered acceptable by current Spanish standards. There is simply no demand for more people to exist.
If there were no economic opportunity for foreigners (i.e., Moroccans and ot non-Spanish nationals), then there would not be a migrant crisis. It is cle that, whatever the Spanish standards permit, there is an under-belly economy that appeals to migrants, who conversely have nothing even remotely approach that opportunity in their home countries. In the United States, our agricultural and services industries are highly reliant upon foreign immigra labor, as is our technology and specialized talent sectors - similarly relia upon foreign specialized labor - in order to meet the economic demands that have. Europe, as a whole, is a beacon of untapped opportunity in the eyes o the suffering migrant populations.
Spain could start to invest in technology, automation, and mass commercialization to make much of its territory inhabitable. Unlike much of the Continent, Spain has nearly two-thirds of its physical terrain untapped undeveloped. It represents huge development opportunities for natural resources extraction, real estate, commercial and industrial development, ju to name a few.
_____
-=: Kaelon :=-
Europe, by and large, is still dealing with the consequences of its colonization of Africa, which as I mentioned elsewhere, only effectively terminated in the 1960s. If you've read Douglas C. North's "Institutions, Institutional Change, and Economic Performance" (strongly recommended, if yo haven't), you can appreciate that in order for new organizational stability emerge, institutional predictability requires at least 2-3 generations to resolve outstanding political, economic, and social issues. Europe has anot 10-25 years to contend with before these matters become clearer, and the European Union and its fate will factor largely in the emergence of a true Pan-European Identity, but so far, the picture looks mixed, at best.
_____
Europe, by and large, is still dealing with the consequences of its colonization of Africa, which as I mentioned elsewhere, only effectively terminated in the 1960s. If you've read Douglas C. North's "Institutions,
Regarding exploitation of natural resources, at this point it is nearly a formalized policy that we don't exploit our natural resources due to ecological concerns (ie. we don't open new mines or extract oil from new deposits because that is considered unecological)
Kaelon wrote to Boraxman <=-
@MSGID: <62925E64.59799.dove-deb@vert.synchro.net>
@REPLY: <6291E3FA.23209.dove-deb@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Boraxman to Kaelon on
Sat May 28 2022 06:50 pm
Now you are resorting to name-calling?? It was only a matter of time before you trotted out that old canard.
Firstly, it's not "name-calling" to accurately describe what you are openly describing - preferring people of one race to the people of
another race, or creating policies that advance the primacy of one
racial group at the expense of another - as a "racialist" or "racist" policy. I am not ascribing moral value to racism, but I think it's important to understand that, unless if you establish an autoarky in
your economic system and effectively can close yourself off from the
rest of the world, a racialist policy in how you manage your population has wide-ranging demographic and diplomatic implications.
I will also say that to have a genuine discussion about the underlying social, economic, and political causes of immigration, one has to
frankly understand and discuss the nuances of the policies and
practices of the State that have led to the circumstance where it
becomes anywhere from permissive of to reliant upon foreign populations
in order to function.
You seem to rant about foreign populations in your country - whatever
the case may be - without acknowledging or being interested in
discussing the factors and complicity of your own country and its
people in creating the circumstances that led these foreign populations
to your shores to begin with. You're trotting out nativist tropes like "we're being forced to open our borders" (by whom? why?). The truth is often times messier and far less convenient. You have foreigners in
your country because your political and economic leaders need them.
And things aren't changing because your view, frankly, is in the
minority.
I suggested a few basic tracks that could help change the nature of the conversation: improve the birth rate of your population, ensure that
your neighbors are successful and prosperous states, and create a
better regime of assimilation and integration in order to prevent
foreign populations from effectively dilluting your national identity.
But you don't seem interested in discussing the specifics here, and
just want to villainize people for being in your country.
I am 99.8% Caucasian, by the way, so I am not exactly advancing a non-White view here, given that I am White myself and generally
privileged anywhere in the Western World. I am, however, acknowldging that a nativist and racialist perspective often does not appreciate a sense of accountability or ownership for the creation of the current circumstance. And in your country, there are policies and practices in place that require an under-class of foreigners to properly service
your demographic and economic needs. Simply put. _____
Kaelon wrote to Boraxman <=-
@MSGID: <62925FD0.59800.dove-deb@vert.synchro.net>
@REPLY: <6291E3FA.23210.dove-deb@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Boraxman to Kaelon on
Sat May 28 2022 06:55 pm
By the way, the Arab world was imperialistic, as were the Mongols, and if you think that the first nations of Australia, America, or the peoples in Sub-Saharan Africa lived in peace and harmony, you have a skewed view of history. They didn't attain the same level of imperialism not because of their virtues, but lack of technical capacity to do so.
All civilizations engage in imperialism as a natural part of their
social, economic, and political expression. There are very few
exceptions of inherently passive or pacifist populations (because most
if not all of them were subjugated, assimilated, or annihilated).
However, there is always cause-and-effect, and the Umayyad and Abbasid Caliphates paid dearly for their expansion across the world in the form
of countless Crusades that ended their empires, and since the collapse
of the Ottoman Hegemony in the 1600s, widespread subjugation, colonization, and global interference - from League of Nations mandates
to modern day United Nations peacekeeping operations.
Europe, by and large, is still dealing with the consequences of its colonization of Africa, which as I mentioned elsewhere, only
effectively terminated in the 1960s. If you've read Douglas C. North's "Institutions, Institutional Change, and Economic Performance"
(strongly recommended, if you haven't), you can appreciate that in
order for new organizational stability to emerge, institutional predictability requires at least 2-3 generations to resolve outstanding political, economic, and social issues. Europe has another 10-25 years
to contend with before these matters become clearer, and the European Union and its fate will factor largely in the emergence of a true Pan-European Identity, but so far, the picture looks mixed, at best.
Moondog wrote to Boraxman <=-
@MSGID: <62927001.39556.dove-deb@cavebbs.homeip.net>
@REPLY: <6290A9F2.23192.dove-deb@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Boraxman to Dumas Walker on
Fri May 27 2022 08:31 pm
Dumas Walker wrote to BORAXMAN <=-
@MSGID: <628FE257.25045.dove-deb@capitolcityonline.net>
@REPLY: <628F5AB7.9038.dove-deb@pharcyde.org>
The common theme is that if the country is White/Western, it MUST become diverse.
And if it is a non-white country that has too much white immigration, it is not called diversity, it is called something derogatory.
"Diversity" just means non-white. That is explicit now. People refer to suburbs where there is significant number of non-European/non-Anglos as "diverse", even if they are all Indian. There are people of a "diverse" background where they really mean non-Anglo, and generally, non-European.
I've meant to ask my companies HR team whether I count as "Diverse" being European, but not Anglo.
I'd like to hear what they say/
Arelor wrote to Kaelon <=-
@MSGID: <6291F88A.6902.dove-debate@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
@REPLY: <6290FCF0.59781.dove-deb@vert.synchro.net>
Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Kaelon to boraxman on
Fri May 27 2022 09:31 am
non-whites in your country (again, a racist perspective) - then you need to confront the demographic failures of your country. It starts with birth rat (and this is controversial) but until your country generates 2,100 births fo every 1,000 women, it in effect cannot replace its population to stay population neutral. Most Western Countries have abysmal birth rates (born,
The problem I have with that argument is that the Western countries
taking immigrants from poor countries in a massive way and which have internal demographic crisis usually have a demographic crisis because
they cannot cope with more population.
Sure, in Spain we could keep on multiplying like rabbits. However, we could not maintain our offspring in an environment considered
acceptable by current Spanish standards. There is simply no demand for more people to exist.
If you try to think of some business to start in Spain you soon realize that every need you could fullfil is already satisfied by an existing infrastructure. The unemployed to vacancies ratio is not favorable
either. This translates in lots of mini-phenomena which occur in
society and makes people not have more children, because Spaniards
don't want to have children which will end up living in poverty.
I've meant to ask my companies HR team whether I count as "Diverse" being European, but not Anglo.
was). Someone in the audience asked a question like what that actually means, and they said they thought it was unfair that the company would make a hiring decision based on someone's ethnic background, or that their ethnic background would give a candidate an advantage over someone of a different ethnicity. The CEO flat out said that there was a rule (or law? I don't remember) that if they had to choose between 2 equally qualified candidates, if one of them is a minority, they would need to hire the minority.
Calling such common, understandable and acknowledged preferences "racialist" or "racist" is an argumentative tactic used to pathologise, specifically for one people, that which is understood as normal elsewhere in order to support morally dubious ideologies.
Secondly, the discussion about birtrate, colonialism, and the other issues that you brought up are worthy of nuanced discussion, but not now. The reason being is that while we may agree more than you realise on the analysis of these, it is *specifically* their use as justification for mass immigration. We know they are used as justifications for this, because they are always brought up, just as you decided to bring them up. They are standard "talking points". To change the nature of the conversation, as you desired, is to draw discussion away from the central point, which is whether it is morally problematic or not, to enact, support and by certain means, entrench policies and practicies which jeaopardize an identifable group.
My view is simple. That is immoral. It is immoral to use this as a "solution" to a problem, whether it is the "race" problem, the "birthrate" problem or the "colonialism" problem.
Agreed, and we are still yet to come to terms with the blowback. The ruling classes need for power, expansion and prestige in the long run seems zero sum. Thank you for the recommendation, and despite my objections against a system of one one free flow of people, that doesn't also come with a blindness to problems that "we" have created, and the follies and blowback from our own (speaking for the modern Wests here), misadventures and crimes. There are many on the right who want to shut down any recognition or reconciliation, which is not something I subscribe to. While I personally (and most others) are not personally guilty, we need to acknowledge the flaws in our own systems, which still exist to a large degree. We are STILL imperialistic and supremacist, still plundering the 'global south', but doing it in a different manner so we can pretend we are no longer racist or unenlightened.
But, this reckoning should not come at a demographic costs. Such costs are permanent, long lasting and punitive on future generations, and unlike many who wax lyrical about a future "mixed" world, I think such fantasies are folly, and mostly deleterious. It is one thing to ask a people to rightfully compensate those who have been wronged, but I beleive, quite firmly, that the primary motives for demographic change are 1) exploitation of the population as "human capital" and 2) a desire for revenge, or "an eye for an eye".
Nightfox wrote to Boraxman <=-
@MSGID: <6293C53B.27982.dove_dove-deb@digitaldistortionbbs.com>
@REPLY: <6290A9F2.23192.dove-deb@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Boraxman to Dumas Walker on
Fri May 27 2022 08:31 pm
I've meant to ask my companies HR team whether I count as "Diverse" being European, but not Anglo.
At a company I previously worked at, there was a company-wide meeting where the CEO was talking about current events and news for the
company. The topic of diversity in hiring came up, and the CEO
mentioned trying to meet the company's goals of hiring diversity candidates (or whatever the term was). Someone in the audience asked a question like what that actually means, and they said they thought it
was unfair that the company would make a hiring decision based on someone's ethnic background, or that their ethnic background would give
a candidate an advantage over someone of a different ethnicity. The
CEO flat out said that there was a rule (or law? I don't remember) that
if they had to choose between 2 equally qualified candidates, if one of them is a minority, they would need to hire the minority.
Nightfox
Kaelon wrote to Boraxman <=-
Calling such common, understandable and acknowledged preferences "racialist" or "racist" is an argumentative tactic used to pathologise, specifically for one people, that which is understood as normal elsewhere in order to support morally dubious ideologies.
I'm hardly being argumentative to correctly define the term that you
are using to describe your preference. You wish to prioritize one race over another (namely, "White" people, as you have identified them).
That is the very definition of racialist politics: the prioritization
of one race over the others. Do not blame me for making it pathological
- blame the Third Reich for taking racialism to the extreme by
murdering over 6 million Jews all in the interests of their "pure"
Aryan race. It's unfortunate that racial preferences, when they
prioritize the numerically dominant race at the expense of the
minority, cannot be discussed in nuance; it is a slippery slope that
other countries have demonstrated lead to genocide. And there have
been countless examples since Nazi Germany - from the Khmer Rouge to Serbian Nationalists. It is a cornerstone of hate, and the first step towards holocaust. Perhaps this is why diversity policies cannot realistically be dissented against; there is no example of a scenario where this dissent does not ultimately turn violent.
Why not now? I think you follow up precisely with why it's better to discuss social, political, and economic causes that have led to a
general zero-tolerance in the West towards racialist policies. I don't think it's changing the nature of the conversation: it is the very conversation that needs to be had. What led Australia to institute its policies of multiculturalism and diversity? Clearly, there were
social, political, and economic ones that led to this consensus. To instead blame "outsiders" for this, or suggest there is some sort of "Great Replacement" conspiracy - which, again, has been widely
disproven by every serious demographer and sociologist - is refusing to take responsibility for the problems that your society is contending
with.
I have suggested various ways to address your demographic and economic failures without moving towards immigration. You do not want to
discuss them, and instead just want to blame non-Whites (somehow?),
when it's clearly an inherent quality of Western Civilization to
embrace divergent viewpoints, diverse perspectives, and seek out to assimilate talent and skills outside of their own borders.
Considering Australia's origin story as the ultimate British Penal
Colony for people deemed by the British Crown to be "deviant" and unacceptable to the Anglo-Saxon norm - whether the criminal justice system, or simply socio-economic undesirables - it is disappointing
that you do not embrace your country's origin story more patriotically.
Kaelon wrote to Boraxman <=-
I think that if you are proposing creating a new state, one organized around racial principles, you have to contend with the very
"recognition and reconciliation" that you cite that many on the Right
are unwilling to contend with. Without this, much of what you aspire
to create - a mono-racial or mono-cultural state - is reliant upon the moral rights of the people who have been exploited to create it (such
as the aboriginal peoples of Australia). There is also the
inconvenient truth that, both culturally and racially, virtually all peoples in the world are now diverse, and so, you would be imprinting
some sort of new or fictitious identity. This is not without complication, or eventual exposure.
I would agree that migration policies stem from the need for
demographic change, but I disagree that there is some sort of grand racialist conspiracy the likes of which "Great Replacement" theory (a
la Renaud and the like) is at work here. It's far simpler: countries,
as modern nation-states, succeed or fail largely due to geopolitical factors, namely, the land on which people inhabit, and the people themselves. It comes down to raw resources and sheer numbers. The
Third Reich might have triumphed in the Second World War, had it not
been vastly outnumbered by the Soviet Russians, who were able to
sacrifice over 100 million people to defeat them. It is also for this very reason why countries like Norway, Sweden, Finland, and Denmark,
have no valid recourse given their limited geopolitical constraints,
other than to be the pawns of greater powers.
You keep trying to deny there is policy, when clearly, immigration policy, as well as the ideological push towards "diversity" and the "melting pot" is cleary a deliberate goal.
This is nonsensical. No one is seeking to "create" anything, but rather to STOP a process.
The Third Reich was primarily about the party, not the "race". You would find yourself in a concentration camp much much faster if you were speaking against the regime, than if you were married to a black person.
I'm hardly being argumentative to correctly define the term that you are usi to describe your preference. You wish to prioritize one race over another (namely, "White" people, as you have identified them). That is the very definition of racialist politics: the prioritization of one race over the others. Do not blame me for making it pathological - blame the Third Reich f taking racialism to the extreme by murdering over 6 million Jews all in the interests of their "pure" Aryan race. It's unfortunate that racial preferenc when they prioritize the numerically dominant race at the expense of the minority, cannot be discussed in nuance; it is a slippery slope that other countries have demonstrated lead to genocide. And there have been countless examples since Nazi Germany - from the Khmer Rouge to Serbian Nationalists. is a cornerstone of hate, and the first step towards holocaust. Perhaps thi is why diversity policies cannot realistically be dissented against; there i no example of a scenario where this dissent does not ultimately turn violent
The fact you are arguing that "white" countries have to actively import foreigners from non-white backgrounds and then offer training to them for free is equally racist, according to your logic, because you are de-priorizing white natives.
The fact you are arguing that "white" countries have to actively import foreigners from non-white backgrounds and then offer training to them for free is equally racist, according to your logic, because you are de-priorizing white natives.
That's hilarious, considering I'm not advocating any such policy. I am simp
You have posted, at least twice that I have noticed, that we must import people and offer them integration training.
If that is not the case then I will drop the argument.
I've observed this too. I was told by a manager at a placed I worked that despite him knowing who the best candidate was, they leaned on him to hire based on 'diversity'. These practises are the clearest examples of literal racism and sexism you can find. Having bad things to say about a particular race or gender may be crude, impolite, mean, but these companies are quite literally ranking people on race and making decisions that affect peoples lives on these attributes. A "racist ranter" on a train has less impact.
Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Arelor to Kaelon on Mon May 30 2022 03:15 pm
You have posted, at least twice that I have noticed, that we must import people and offer them integration training.
If that is not the case then I will drop the argument.
My position is simple: immigration, as a matter of policy, is unavoidable gi the demographic failure of most Western states. If a Western state wishes t avoid the subsequent political failure that often follows demographic failur (including, a collapse in tax base, evisceration in the open competitive marketplace, and potentially even military confrontation from larger and mor competitive/populous nations), it must confront its demographic failure. Immigration, as it stands, is seen by most democratic governments as the mos palatable approach to managing this problem. It is, by no means, the only approach - and, if you live in an authoritarian society, many more options appear on your menu from which governments can select.
If you must import people for demographic purposes - replenishing your decreasing population, maintaining competitiveness in the open marketplace, even just sustaining the native population through the service economic sect - then, governments should be integrating and assimilating these populations Otherwise, they will create significant social and political strife, which eventually defeats whatever perceived economic benefits one may derive from them. In the world today, the United States has the highest success rate at integrating and assimilating these populations, but it certainly does not st alone.
_____
-=: Kaelon :=-
I think you give governments too much credit if you think they have long term plans to face demographic crisis. My experience is politicians only attempt to solve issues that will apply over their mandate. IMO they are using the demographic crisis as the good sounding excuse for rolling out incentive programs to further their actual political goals (such as shipping foreigners to certain areas or manipulating public opinion).
Also the US is starting to look like a bad example to use since it was literally burning due to unsolved ethnocultural conflicts in what seems three days ago.
My position is simple: immigration, as a matter of policy, is unavoidable gi the demographic failure of most Western states. If a Western state wishes t avoid the subsequent political failure that often follows demographic failur (including, a collapse in tax base, evisceration in the open competitive marketplace, and potentially even military confrontation from larger and mor competitive/populous nations), it must confront its demographic failure. Immigration, as it stands, is seen by most democratic governments as the mos palatable approach to managing this problem. It is, by no means, the only approach - and, if you live in an authoritarian society, many more options appear on your menu from which governments can select.
Besides, as mentioned earlier, if you import people with a culture different enough from yours as a solution, your own culture will be extinguished nevertheless unless you assimilate the incomers. Notice I didn't say "integrate". I said "assimilate". This is the core reason why your average nationalist does not buy immigration as a solution.
Some people underestimates greatly how expansive certain cultures are and how defensive their members are regarding those cultures. This is probably because Westerns seem to think the usual Western traditions (based on religion, pagan customes from ages past and whatever have you) are lame and that people from other cultures have the same appreciation for their own culture as Westerns do for theirs. This is kind of dangerous because a single person pushing a cultural agenda is cute but four thousand are a political entity. The Opus Dei is harmless because there are so few of them: if they were 40% of the population chances are you'd live under a Christian Theocracy.
in the news in my state, if they post a story on someone that is arrested and they are white: you get a photo. you get them mentioned as being white several times.
if the person is black: no photo. no description! seriously, no description. and no mention of race.
if the person is black: no photo. no description! seriously, no description. and no mention of race.
Less than 100 miles north of you, it's the opposite.
DaiTengu
here's some info on our areas:
Appleton Demographics
White: 84.27% Asian: 7.37% Black or African American: 3.36% Two or more races: 2.29%
Milwaukee Demographics
White: 44.35% Black or African American: 38.75% Other race: 7.98% Asian: 4.26%
Milwaukee Demographics
White: 44.35% Black or African American: 38.75% Other race: 7.98% Asian: 4.26%
Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: MRO to DaiTengu on Tue May 31 2022 03:18 am
here's some info on our areas:
Appleton Demographics
White: 84.27% Asian: 7.37% Black or African American: 3.36% Two or more races: 2.29%
Milwaukee Demographics
White: 44.35% Black or African American: 38.75% Other race: 7.98% Asian: 4.26%
Appleton was a "Sundown town" up until the late 60s. While it's gotten a lot better, there's still a lot of racism here.
Rumor has it, there used to be a billboard just north of Fond Du Lac that said black people were not welcome north of there. I'm guessing that would have been in the 1940s or so.
Nightfox wrote to Boraxman <=-
@MSGID: <6293C53B.27982.dove_dove-deb@digitaldistortionbbs.com>
@REPLY: <6290A9F2.23192.dove-deb@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Boraxman to Dumas Walker on
Fri May 27 2022 08:31 pm
I've meant to ask my companies HR team whether I count as "Diverse" bei European, but not Anglo.
At a company I previously worked at, there was a company-wide meeting where the CEO was talking about current events and news for the company. The topic of diversity in hiring came up, and the CEO mentioned trying to meet the company's goals of hiring diversity candidates (or whatever the term was). Someone in the audience asked a question like what that actually means, and they said they thought it was unfair that the company would make a hiring decision based on someone's ethnic background, or that their ethnic background would give a candidate an advantage over someone of a different ethnicity. The CEO flat out said that there was a rule (or law? I don't remember) that if they had to choose between 2 equally qualified candidates, if one of them is a minority, they would need to hire the minority.
Nightfox
I've observed this too. I was told by a manager at a placed I worked that despite him knowing who the best candidate was, they leaned on him to hire based on 'diversity'. These practises are the clearest examples of literal racism and sexism you can find. Having bad things to say about a particular race or gender may be crude, impolite, mean, but these companies are quite literally ranking people on race and making decisions that affect peoples li on these attributes. A "racist ranter" on a train has less impact.
Kaelon wrote to Boraxman <=-
I think that if you are proposing creating a new state, one organized around racial principles, you have to contend with the very "recognition and reconciliation" that you cite that many on the Right are unwilling to contend with. Without this, much of what you aspire to create - a mono-racial or mono-cultural state - is reliant upon the moral rights of the people who have been exploited to create it (such as the aboriginal peoples of Australia). There is also the inconvenient truth that, both culturally and racially, virtually all peoples in the world are now diverse, and so, you would be imprinting some sort of new or fictitious identity. This is not without complication, or eventual exposure.
This is nonsensical. No one is seeking to "create" anything, but rather to STOP a process.
I would agree that migration policies stem from the need for demographic change, but I disagree that there is some sort of grand racialist conspiracy the likes of which "Great Replacement" theory (a la Renaud and the like) is at work here. It's far simpler: countries, as modern nation-states, succeed or fail largely due to geopolitical factors, namely, the land on which people inhabit, and the people themselves. It comes down to raw resources and sheer numbers. The Third Reich might have triumphed in the Second World War, had it not been vastly outnumbered by the Soviet Russians, who were able to sacrifice over 100 million people to defeat them. It is also for this very reason why countries like Norway, Sweden, Finland, and Denmark, have no valid recourse given their limited geopolitical constraints, other than to be the pawns of greater powers.
The Third Reich would never have triumphed long term because it was based on Great Man (figuratively speaking) and had an unsustainable ideology.
The Third Reich was primarily about the party, not the "race". You would fi yourself in a concentration camp much much faster if you were speaking again the regime, than if you were married to a black person.
The narrative that the war/fight was about racism is a post-hoc rationalise the West to justify demographic changes by leadership. No one back then was stupid enough to conflate the Nazi's specific racial ideas with restricted immigration. That confusion, which you are spreading, came later.
At what point do the British or French get to say that immigration should be curtailed? When they are less then 50%, 40%, 30%?
Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Arelor to Kaelon on Mon May 30 2022 03:15 pm
You have posted, at least twice that I have noticed, that we must import people and offer them integration training.
If that is not the case then I will drop the argument.
My position is simple: immigration, as a matter of policy, is unavoidable gi apse in tax base, evisceration in the open competitive marketplace, and pote cratic governments as the most palatable approach to managing this problem.
If you must import people for demographic purposes - replenishing your decre d be integrating and assimilating these populations. Otherwise, they will c the highest success rate at integrating and assimilating these populations, _____
-=: Kaelon :=-
Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Boraxman to Nightfox on Tue May 31 2022 07:22 am
I've observed this too. I was told by a manager at a placed I worked tha despite him knowing who the best candidate was, they leaned on him to hir based on 'diversity'. These practises are the clearest examples of liter racism and sexism you can find. Having bad things to say about a particu race or gender may be crude, impolite, mean, but these companies are quit literally ranking people on race and making decisions that affect peoples lives on these attributes. A "racist ranter" on a train has less impact.
in the news in my state, if they post a story on someone that is arrested an
if the person is black: no photo. no description! seriously, no description.
i come from a diverse background and half my family is black and my family
Just in case it is not clear, my general position on this issue is that I am not against immigration per-se but I am against incentivicing it.
if the person is black: no photo. no description! seriously, no description. a
no mention of race.
The United States, despite the January 6th Insurrection (wholly manufactured b
President Trump and his supporters), and the many social challenges stemming f
m cultural, racial, and economic tensions (which have endured since our Foundi
, with episodes from the Civil War to Martin Luther King to Rodney King and no
the Black Lives Matter movements), is still a suitable example for several rea
ns:
if the person is black: no photo. no description! seriously, no description. a
no mention of race.
That is interesting. Here, they still at least include a photo, if it is a TV story.
Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: MRO to DaiTengu on Tue May 31 2022 03:18 am
here's some info on our areas:
Appleton Demographics
White: 84.27% Asian: 7.37% Black or African American: 3.36% Two or more races: 2.29%
Milwaukee Demographics
White: 44.35% Black or African American: 38.75% Other race: 7.98% Asian 4.26%
Appleton was a "Sundown town" up until the late 60s. While it's gotten a lo
Rumor has it, there used to be a billboard just north of Fond Du Lac that sa
DaiTengu
... There's little worse than being peerless in a peer-review system.
Kaelon wrote to Boraxman <=-
Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Boraxman to Kaelon on Mon May 30 2022 09:45 pm
You keep trying to deny there is policy, when clearly, immigration policy, as well as the ideological push towards "diversity" and the "melting pot" is cleary a deliberate goal.
I disagree that this is the goal. You ascribe racialist intent to a demographic policy, because you see the world in racial terms. I see
the world in geopolitical terms, and as I describe elsewhere and here,
the policies we have for immigration are numerical in origin: they are economic and they are demographic. If there were enough White
immigrants, for example, willing to accept the economic and demographic circumstances of immigrating to France or Britain, I assure you, they would be taken.
"Diversity," as a sociopolitical argument, is a way of managing the outcomes of the goal. It's really simple: this is all about numbers.
The largest (i.e., most populous and geographically expansive /
resource rich) nation-states are the most prosperous and powerful on
the planet. Conversely, nation-states with shrinking populations or
with ecologically or geographically challenged circumstances, are
looking at a certain geopolitical destiny as a second-rate (if not subjugated) power.
That's the goal here.
_____
-=: Kaelon :=-
Kaelon wrote to Boraxman <=-
Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Boraxman to Kaelon on Mon May 30 2022 09:51 pm
This is nonsensical. No one is seeking to "create" anything, but rather to STOP a process.
I think the process is largely unstoppable, not without a real
replacement to the solution to the problem - which I have argued repeatedly is demographic in origin. If Britain were to surpass 2,100 births for every 1,000 women, it would no longer be in demographic
crisis within one generation. China and Korea can impose immigration restrictions because it has a demographic crisis in the other direction
-- too many people, not enough resources to maintain them.
This is a new tangent, and I am happy to debate it, but there is vast evidence that shows that the policy of the Third Reich - beyond what it publicly espoused in documentation - was racialist in origin. Every decision made during the Second World War, from electing not to
complete Operation Sea Lion against the British, turn its attention to Russia and the expansive East, or to divert critical manufacturing resources to hasten the shipping of Jews to the concentration camps in
the final year of the war, were all premised upon the real aim - what Himmler would later state "even if we lose, future generations will
laud us for our achievement" - which was to depopulate the continent of non-Aryans. _____
-=: Kaelon :=-
MRO wrote to Boraxman <=-
Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Boraxman to Nightfox on Tue May 31 2022 07:22 am
I've observed this too. I was told by a manager at a placed I worked that despite him knowing who the best candidate was, they leaned on him to hire based on 'diversity'. These practises are the clearest examples of literal racism and sexism you can find. Having bad things to say about a particular race or gender may be crude, impolite, mean, but these companies are quite literally ranking people on race and making decisions that affect peoples lives on these attributes. A "racist ranter" on a train has less impact.
in the news in my state, if they post a story on someone that is
arrested and they are white: you get a photo. you get them mentioned
as being white several times.
if the person is black: no photo. no description! seriously, no description. and no mention of race.
i come from a diverse background and half my family is black and my family are immigrants. so fuck people telling me how to talk. ---
Moondog wrote to Boraxman <=-
Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Boraxman to Nightfox on Tue May 31 2022 07:22 am
Nightfox wrote to Boraxman <=-
@MSGID: <6293C53B.27982.dove_dove-deb@digitaldistortionbbs.com>
@REPLY: <6290A9F2.23192.dove-deb@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Boraxman to Dumas Walker on
Fri May 27 2022 08:31 pm
I've meant to ask my companies HR team whether I count as "Diverse" bei European, but not Anglo.
At a company I previously worked at, there was a company-wide meeting where the CEO was talking about current events and news for the company. The topic of diversity in hiring came up, and the CEO mentioned trying to meet the company's goals of hiring diversity candidates (or whatever the term was). Someone in the audience asked a question like what that actually means, and they said they thought it was unfair that the company would make a hiring decision based on someone's ethnic background, or that their ethnic background would give a candidate an advantage over someone of a different ethnicity. The CEO flat out said that there was a rule (or law? I don't remember) that if they had to choose between 2 equally qualified candidates, if one of them is a minority, they would need to hire the minority.
Nightfox
I've observed this too. I was told by a manager at a placed I worked that despite him knowing who the best candidate was, they leaned on him to hire based on 'diversity'. These practises are the clearest examples of literal racism and sexism you can find. Having bad things to say about a particular race or gender may be crude, impolite, mean, but these companies are quite literally ranking people on race and making decisions that affect peoples li on these attributes. A "racist ranter" on a train has less impact.
It is done because it looks favorable on paper to the community and the government.
Several years ago a local radio station was mentioned on the news
because it fell within the lower percentile of radio stations in it's progamming format with regards to hiring minorities and overall
diversity of employees.
In defense of theirselves, the radio station manager pointet out they
had been under a hiring freeze for that year, so any new employee would
be a direct replacement of another, and no one left the company that
year. They also pulled the job application forms for the last five
years, and no one considered as a minority had applied. It was at the time a stand alone statio n with one tower and a small building next to it. My guess is 10-15 employees. Album oriented rock, and other than DJ's babysitting an automated system, they had two guys in the morning telling jokes and reading traffic reports and sometimes an afternoon
guy that will air calls. The morning guys and afternoon guys were replaced by syndicated radio shows. All the rest were engineers,
admin, or sales folk. They had historically hired all their talen
from the local college, so that also narrowed down their choices as to
who applied to their communications programs.
They got off the list bottom eventually. They were bought up by a
larger broadcast company that kept the transmitter but closed down the office. They moved everyone into a larger building with all their other affiliates and laid off whoever they no longer needed. The station
format is talk radio, and nearly every show is syndicated.
Moondog wrote to Boraxman <=-
Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Boraxman to Kaelon on Mon May 30 2022 09:51 pm
Kaelon wrote to Boraxman <=-
I think that if you are proposing creating a new state, one organized around racial principles, you have to contend with the very "recognition and reconciliation" that you cite that many on the Right are unwilling to contend with. Without this, much of what you aspire to create - a mono-racial or mono-cultural state - is reliant upon the moral rights of the people who have been exploited to create it (such as the aboriginal peoples of Australia). There is also the inconvenient truth that, both culturally and racially, virtually all peoples in the world are now diverse, and so, you would be imprinting some sort of new or fictitious identity. This is not without complication, or eventual exposure.
This is nonsensical. No one is seeking to "create" anything, but rather to STOP a process.
I would agree that migration policies stem from the need for demographic change, but I disagree that there is some sort of grand racialist conspiracy the likes of which "Great Replacement" theory (a la Renaud and the like) is at work here. It's far simpler: countries, as modern nation-states, succeed or fail largely due to geopolitical factors, namely, the land on which people inhabit, and the people themselves. It comes down to raw resources and sheer numbers. The Third Reich might have triumphed in the Second World War, had it not been vastly outnumbered by the Soviet Russians, who were able to sacrifice over 100 million people to defeat them. It is also for this very reason why countries like Norway, Sweden, Finland, and Denmark, have no valid recourse given their limited geopolitical constraints, other than to be the pawns of greater powers.
The Third Reich would never have triumphed long term because it was based on Great Man (figuratively speaking) and had an unsustainable ideology.
The Third Reich was primarily about the party, not the "race". You would fi yourself in a concentration camp much much faster if you were speaking again the regime, than if you were married to a black person.
The narrative that the war/fight was about racism is a post-hoc rationalise the West to justify demographic changes by leadership. No one back then was stupid enough to conflate the Nazi's specific racial ideas with restricted immigration. That confusion, which you are spreading, came later.
At what point do the British or French get to say that immigration should be curtailed? When they are less then 50%, 40%, 30%?
The "big lie" the Reich was built upon was based on blaming the
nation's problems on minority groups with obvious or strong presence. Conspiracy that external ethnic and religious groups were there to contaminate their culture and destroy the nation from the inside.
You seem to be ignoring the 2020 Summer of Riots, which I think is what the poster was refering to when he mentioned the US being on fire.
How do you account for those who clearly state that changing demographics will change the character of the nation? How do you account for accusations that someting is "too white"? How do you accont for protests against any other view being "racist".
If one particular view is an "ism", then surely another particular view is as well. You view things through a Geopolitical lens, which is reasonable enough, but at some point we have to step back and say "what for".
I DO take a nationalistic point of view because it is in my self interest
to
do so, just as it is in self interest of a ruling elite, or a ruling aristocracy, to do what it takes to maintain THEIR power.
The largest states may win, but WHAT wins? There is the issue, the nihilism inherit within the modern so called nation state. The state itself is its own power, its own entity, and represents its own interest, which is decoupled from the people who had created it. The US was founded with the idea that would be for OUR prosperity. Not for the sake of the state itself, but for the benefit of the people who founded it. If not for that, then what?
What value is the UK, or France, or Australia, or the US for that matter, when the only metric, the only judgement of success is the state appartus and the administrative entity? The nation-state become like a corporation, and we become like employees, who only have an interest if we are employed.I don't think the State has much value in the Anglo-Saxon tradition today; it is simply an administrative means for the corporate end. Corporations in the United States, United Kingdom, and Australia (to a lesser extent), are the dominant political players that drive the policies of their governments. And this is precisely how these governments were built: to represent the elite through the machinery of elections that favored incumbency, prioritized established hierarchies, and necessarily favored wealthy people over the poor.
This is the pathology here. The nation-state has decoupled from the people who created and built it, and is itself its own meaning. Britains success is no longer the success of the British people, but just the organisations that claim to be "Britain". The state no longer represents a people.
So why should I care if my own country is the biggest, when it has no loyalty to me?
It is irrelevant to me if Australia is successful, if the proposition of Australia no longer represent, or is, what I am. Just as the US become less and less relevant, when it represents, less and less, what Americans are.
IT becomes a hollow proposition state, and such states cannot be free, they must become authoritarian. Ultimately, it doesn't matter whether a nation state lives or not. They are artificial constructs anyway. Culture, people, ethnic groups, that which will still persist, THEY are real.
In the West (unlike say, China), we've removed this factor from our analysis, from our worldview. We're purely geo-political, but have defined ourselves out of existence. This is why Chinese *WILL* overtake Americans as a force. There will still be a Chinese nation, but only a hollowed out American empire.
I am definitely not ignoring the Black Lives Matter movement, of which the 2 "Summer of Riots" was an episode. It's just that BLM is part of an American tradition of dealing with its origins as a Slave Nation. We've been having race riots since before the Civil War, and they happen very predictably ever 5-7 years.
Perpetual population growth is simply not sustainable. We MUST face a new reality, that populations are not going to always increase.
It is expected at some point in this or next century, that this will become the norm. We simply cannot be reliant on alway having above replacement population growth.
The size of the population will wax and wane, but the problem is not the birthrate. It is our inability to adapt to a world with education, birth control, automation and machinery.
The process is not unstoppable. Government policy created it, and government policy can be changed.
I guess it is a tradition as respectable as slowly slicing a bull to death in a public arena and calling it bullfighting, or driving dolphins into a gulf and massacring them with sledgehammers to the point the waters get so red you d think the Cannae Battle has happened there four times in five minutes.
Being traditional does not mean something is defensible. That is, if you manage to convince anybody that it is traditional to begin with XD
if the person is black: no photo. no description! seriously, no description. a
no mention of race.
That is interesting. Here, they still at least include a photo, if it is a
TV story.
that's how it used to be. but they dont do it anymore in my area in the libe
l newspapers.
i have to use another source to find photo and description.
Despite the media hysteria around it, race relations between non-Blacks and Blacks in the United States aren't deteriorating. They're just not getting much better, and it is part of our national reckoning.
But I noticed the recent Buffalo shooting, where the shooter is white, has stayed in the news while two other recent shootings (where the shooter was not white) quickly fell out. I had actually forgotten about one of them until
I heard a preacher mention it alongside Texas and Buffalo.
Things appear worse, but we have social networks amplifying incident response nowadays. Admittedly, I haven't looked at the stats to see if the number of incidents is increasing or not and there's a good possibility that I'm way off base.
Things appear worse, but we have social networks amplifying incident response wadays. Admittedly, I haven't looked at the stats to see if the number of inci
nts is increasing or not and there's a good possibility that I'm way off base.
But I noticed the recent Buffalo shooting, where the shooter is white, has stayed in the news while two other recent shootings (where the shooter was not white) quickly fell out. I had actually forgotten about one of them until
I heard a preacher mention it alongside Texas and Buffalo.
yeah, that one where it was a graduation party and the woman stopped the shoot
with her handgun was almost invisible.
1. Improve demographic and economic conditions for its native
population, to get to at least 2,100 births per 1,000 people.
Most of the West is well below basic replacement figures, and
is reliant upon immigration to meet basic population economic
needs.
Why does any given nation need to even maintain its' population?
Especially if you consider automation, quality of life and other impacts
of an ever increasing population.
Kaelon wrote to Tracker1 <=-
Russia's population has been steadily shrinking and Ukraine's
population has been steadily growing; this has led to a dramatic shift
and imbalance in geopolitical power between the two, and it was one of
the many factors that led Vladimir Putin to elect to invade this year.
That theory would be supported by the number of Ukrainian citizens alleged to have been exfiltrated to Russia - over 200,000?
Re: Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Kaelon on Sun Jun 05 2022 08:11 am
That theory would be supported by the number of Ukrainian citizens alleged to have been exfiltrated to Russia - over 200,000?
Exactly. Wiping out Ukraine's culture is the ideological necessity behind what is basically a numerical problem that Russia will solve by kidnapping, brainwashing, and "Russifying" hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians.
_____
-=: Kaelon :=-
Where are these reports of exfiltration coming from?
If you research reports, you will see that the United States, NATO, and even the Russians themselves, confirm the strategy of exfiltrating the Ukrainian population. The United Nations has put the official death-count at ~4,000 civilians so far, but both Ukraine and Russia have confirmed tens of thousands of deaths on each side (with Russia acknowledging it is suffering far heavier losses from its botched invasion of Ukraine), and over 4 million refugees, at least 1 million of which were "forcibly relocated" into Russia.
Seems pretty cut and dry to me that Russia is looking to un-make Ukraine. But it will assuredly fail.
_____
-=: Kaelon :=-
Kaelon wrote to Boraxman <=-
Seems pretty cut and dry to me that Russia is looking to un-make
Ukraine. But it will assuredly fail. _____
Boraxman wrote to Kaelon <=-
The high number of Russian losses is quite staggering, considering
how quickly they were able to sieze territory at the start of the invasion.
One has to wonder how far they will be willing to escalate.
Boraxman wrote to Kaelon <=-
The high number of Russian losses is quite staggering, considering
how quickly they were able to sieze territory at the start of the invasion.
One has to wonder how far they will be willing to escalate.
9 years? That's how long they were in Afghanistan.
Boraxman wrote to Kaelon <=-
The high number of Russian losses is quite staggering, considering
how quickly they were able to sieze territory at the start of the invasion.
One has to wonder how far they will be willing to escalate.
9 years? That's how long they were in Afghanistan.
... Would you like to go back?
Re: Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Boraxman on Fri Jun 10 2022 08:02 am
Boraxman wrote to Kaelon <=-
The high number of Russian losses is quite staggering, considering how quickly they were able to sieze territory at the start of the invasion.
One has to wonder how far they will be willing to escalate.
9 years? That's how long they were in Afghanistan.
... Would you like to go back?
i would not fuck with the russians. they are way too smart.
usa should stay out of it.
i would not fuck with the russians. they are way too smart.
usa should stay out of it.
The Russians are proving themsleves in the Ukraine to be way behind the curve. last time I checked they had lost over 14 generals and 40 colonels in combat. They lack secure comms, and use cell phones and cheap Chinese baofeng commercial band radios. Ukrainian artillery is dead nutz accurate be cause it is fed GPS coordinates from Russian troop's and officers phones. This is not a new idea. Back in the 90's during the Bosnian conflict officers responsible for war crimes were using unsecured cell phones, and were easily caught.
Their 40 mile convoy was impressive until it ran out of gas and the dry rotted Chinese tires tore apart. Their latest planes capable of dropping guided munitions are dropping dumb iron bombs (and missing) due to lack of guided muntions. Their tanks are easy prey for drones dropping RPG shaped charges with 3d printed fins.
Soldiers get exposed in the open, retreat, then try the same strategy over and over with no change. No smoke for cover, and no suppressing fire.
Re: Re: Great Replacement The
By: Moondog to MRO on Sat Jun 11 2022 10:20 pm
i would not fuck with the russians. they are way too smart.
usa should stay out of it.
The Russians are proving themsleves in the Ukraine to be way behind the curve. last time I checked they had lost over 14 generals and 40 colonel in combat. They lack secure comms, and use cell phones and cheap Chinese baofeng commercial band radios. Ukrainian artillery is dead nutz accurat be cause it is fed GPS coordinates from Russian troop's and officers phon This is not a new idea. Back in the 90's during the Bosnian conflict officers responsible for war crimes were using unsecured cell phones, and were easily caught.
Their 40 mile convoy was impressive until it ran out of gas and the dry rotted Chinese tires tore apart. Their latest planes capable of dropping guided munitions are dropping dumb iron bombs (and missing) due to lack o guided muntions. Their tanks are easy prey for drones dropping RPG shape charges with 3d printed fins.
Soldiers get exposed in the open, retreat, then try the same strategy ove and over with no change. No smoke for cover, and no suppressing fire.
if you say so.
"Russians are on the verge of capturing key Ukrainian city. In neighboring B 5/23/18 CNN London Ben Wedeman
By Ben Wedeman, CNN
Updated 9:40 AM ET, Sun June 12, 2022"
rolling stone:
"`They're Wiping Us From Earth': Evading Russian Artillery With a Ukrainian
"Russia is now in control of much of Severodonetsk, the epicenter of the bat for Ukraine's eastern Donbas region
By Josh Pennington, Irene Nasser and Jorge Engels, CNN
Updated 8:45 PM ET, Sat June 11, 2022
"
Have a look inside Russia's new 'Tasty' McDonald's replacement
Close
The first of Russia's rebranded McDonald's has opened in Moscow, after the f
Last month McDonald's announced the closure of all restaurants in the Russia
The fast food company sold more than 800 restaurants to Russian businessman
The branches will now reopen under the new name of "Vkusno i Tochka", which
The BBC's Russia editor Steve Rosenberg visited the Moscow restaurant on its
and russia put it's money in chinese banks.
if you say so.
"Russians are on the verge of capturing key Ukrainian city. In neighboring B 5/23/18 CNN London Ben Wedeman
By Ben Wedeman, CNN
Updated 9:40 AM ET, Sun June 12, 2022"
rolling stone:
"`They're Wiping Us From Earth': Evading Russian Artillery With a Ukrainian
"Russia is now in control of much of Severodonetsk, the epicenter of the bat for Ukraine's eastern Donbas region
By Josh Pennington, Irene Nasser and Jorge Engels, CNN
Updated 8:45 PM ET, Sat June 11, 2022
"
Have a look inside Russia's new 'Tasty' McDonald's replacement
Close
The first of Russia's rebranded McDonald's has opened in Moscow, after the f
Last month McDonald's announced the closure of all restaurants in the Russia
The fast food company sold more than 800 restaurants to Russian businessman
The branches will now reopen under the new name of "Vkusno i Tochka", which
The BBC's Russia editor Steve Rosenberg visited the Moscow restaurant on its
and russia put it's money in chinese banks.
The Russian super power as we feared them to be should've had the country under seige in two months. They're good at massacring civillians. They run faster when ambushed versus standing their ground. they are not the force people have feared.
and russia put it's money in chinese banks.
The Russian super power as we feared them to be should've had the country under seige in two months. They're good at massacring civillians. They run faster when ambushed versus standing their ground. they are not the force people have feared.
You do realise that Ukraine is a large country, right? No way they could capture it in two months.
During the start of their capaign, they had quite a significant rate of land capture, comparable to other succesful operations such as the invasion of normandy and desert storm.
Soldiers get exposed in the open, retreat, then try the same strategy over
and over with no change. No smoke for cover, and no suppressing fire.
if you say so.
"Russians are on the verge of capturing key Ukrainian city. In neighboring Bakhmut those wit
5/23/18 CNN London Ben Wedeman
By Ben Wedeman, CNN
The Russian super power as we feared them to be should've had the country under seige in two months. They're good at massacring civillians. They run faster when ambushed versus standing their ground. they are not the force people have feared.
During the start of their capaign, they had quite a significant rate of land
capture, comparable to other succesful operations such as the invasion of normandy and desert storm.
the media is making people stupid.
Re: Re: Great Replacement The
By: Moondog to MRO on Sun Jun 12 2022 02:16 pm
The Russian super power as we feared them to be should've had the country under seige in two months. They're good at massacring civillians. They run faster when ambushed versus standing their ground. they are not the force people have feared.
They may be less than people was expecting them to be, but Russia is not fighting Ukraine. It is fighting Ukraine + Europe + the US. The latter two are concealed behind proxies but they are clearly there.
During the start of their capaign, they had quite a significant rate of land
capture, comparable to other succesful operations such as the invasion of normandy and desert storm.
the media is making people stupid.
I am not sure, but if memory serves me well, German radio stations were telling the population
that the German army was doing great during the Russian campaign in WWII. They only bothered
notifying that somewhing was not going according to the plan once Stalin kicked the nazies out
of Stalingrad, despite the fact it was notorious that things were going south for the nazies
some time before that.
--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
Re: Re: Great Replacement The
By: Moondog to MRO on Sun Jun 12 2022 02:16 pm
and russia put it's money in chinese banks.
The Russian super power as we feared them to be should've had the country under seige in two months. They're good at massacring civillians. They faster when ambushed versus standing their ground. they are not the forc people have feared.
are you there? are you some military genius?
this is from the washington post today:
"Ukraine, on the brink of losing the eastern region of Luhansk to Russia, is f the city is controlled by Russians," the Luhansk governor said Saturday. A
The fighting continues despite about 10,000 Ukrainian soldiers already havin
so did they run away that time?
i'm sure russia will lose any day now. expecially with the sanctions we put
did you see the threat that ukranian politician said where if russia won, th
here is an article where joe biden said we were giving ukraine information a https://apnews.com/85a2489b4fe1042cd03b0ae6f4421a04
ukraine is a corrupt country. they are also full of nazis. just the other day they posted a pic of a ukrainian inspecting damage of a vehicle and he h /?utm_source=Gab&utm_campaign=websitesharingbuttons
https://preview.tinyurl.com/27m2re4z
i think russia stopping ukraine from joining nato and demilitarising them
is a very important. they should remain neutral.
Re: Re: Great Replacement The
By: MRO to Moondog on Sun Jun 12 2022 09:07 am
Soldiers get exposed in the open, retreat, then try the same strategy and over with no change. No smoke for cover, and no suppressing fire.
if you say so.
"Russians are on the verge of capturing key Ukrainian city. In neighborin 5/23/18 CNN London Ben Wedeman
By Ben Wedeman, CNN
[snips snip snip]
Something I have learnt from watching lots and lots of war movies from the 3 once a real conflict kicks in, the propaganda machines of every nation invol bullshit non stop until no information source remains to be believed.
Japanesse media in WWII was all about how poorly equiped the Allies were, ho discipline and how they could not build a structured army and how their offi Does this sound familiar to you?
Meanwhile WWII Chinesse movies were about how poorly equipped and stupid Jap how they lacked discipline and how they could not build an structured army a officers were clueless.
I am sure you can guess the theme of American WWII movies. Actually, America up by adding an extra trope: that an American who has been a bastard can red remembered as a hero if he does the right thing and kills nazies and japs.
So I am kind of skeptic regarding claims that this faction or that faction a they are ill equipped or whatever. That is what everybody has been claiming centuries already XD
--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
Re: Re: Great Replacement The
By: Moondog to MRO on Sun Jun 12 2022 02:16 pm
The Russian super power as we feared them to be should've had the country under seige in two months. They're good at massacring civillians. They faster when ambushed versus standing their ground. they are not the forc people have feared.
They may be less than people was expecting them to be, but Russia is not fig is fighting Ukraine + Europe + the US. The latter two are concealed behind p clearly there.
The US could invade Mexico in a heart beat, unless Mexican troops had been a superpowers, there was international presure to debilitate the USD and its m around the world, and Mexico itself was packed with Chinesse-funded mercenar actually there".
--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
Sounds like pro-Putin propaganda.
When Zelinsky came in to power, he was
the anti-corruption president, pusihing Russian oligarchs out of positions of power.
Nazi grafitti was creditied to these oligarchs as part of
creating negative press, and that's what Putin does to justify all of his actions.
Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors
go
to war first and then seek to win.
that was screwed by their logisitics and years of corrupt officers stealing
The Russians ran out of gas rolling into Kiev happened way before the other countries began sending aide. Other than missiles and drones, surplus tanks from the 70's and 80's are being donated. These donated weapons are being piloted by their regular army, not foriegn fighters brought in to supplement their forces. Granted this equipment is old, but not obsolete, but than again it doens't have the same systems an M1 Abrams would have either.
Re: Re: Great Replacement The
By: Moondog to Arelor on Tue Jun 14 2022 01:30 pm
The Russians ran out of gas rolling into Kiev happened way before the oth countries began sending aide. Other than missiles and drones, surplus ta from the 70's and 80's are being donated. These donated weapons are bein piloted by their regular army, not foriegn fighters brought in to supplem their forces. Granted this equipment is old, but not obsolete, but than again it doens't have the same systems an M1 Abrams would have either.
If we have learnt something from the Western fuckups in the Middle East is t expect superpowers funding mercs as a way to send troops in without having t troops.
I know it sounds like speculation, but it is a matter of statistics. If it i done and they have the motive and resources this time I see no reason why th doing it today XD Having Marines on the ground is a political time bomb but shadow soldiers that are not there is trouble-free, and everyboy is doing it can't accuse you of bringing mercs in because you will accuse them back.
Besides, when complex equipment is sent to ANY industry it usually comes wit operator included by contract. My clinic does not buy new prothesics unless either come with a techniccian to either use them or teach our surgeon how t I'd bet three bags of potatoes that drones etc. come with at least some tech included. Else, why would anybody bring in equipment nobody knows to use?
--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
Outside contractors are a way to introduce experienced trainers to less experienced troops. Volunteer forces such as their own foreign legion is a way to accept foriegn fighters into service. The down side of volunteer outside forces is there are times they ask for any person with a pulse. Imagine some CoD console jockey with no real servcie and no language skills trying to convince an officer they deserve to be a sniper.
Re: Re: Great Replacement The
By: Moondog to Arelor on Wed Jun 15 2022 09:53 am
Outside contractors are a way to introduce experienced trainers to less experienced troops. Volunteer forces such as their own foreign legion is way to accept foriegn fighters into service. The down side of volunteer outside forces is there are times they ask for any person with a pulse. Imagine some CoD console jockey with no real servcie and no language skil trying to convince an officer they deserve to be a sniper.
Actually I have heard of some CoD personality joining in (can't remember whi side) and getting blasted in the first 4 minutes of real battle, now you mention it.
I guess taking cover and waiting for twelve seconds behind a wall does not remove bullet wounds in real life as well as it does in Call of Duty :-(
--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
Re: Re: Great Replacement The
By: Moondog to Arelor on Wed Jun 15 2022 09:53 am
Outside contractors are a way to introduce experienced trainers to less experienced troops. Volunteer forces such as their own foreign legion is a way to accept foriegn fighters into service. The down side of volunteer outside forces is there are times they ask for any person with a pulse. Imagine some CoD console jockey with no real servcie and no language skills trying to convince an officer they deserve to be a sniper.
Actually I have heard of some CoD personality joining in (can't remember which side) and getting blasted in the first 4 minutes of real battle, now you mention it.
Yeah, joining a foriegn war where no one speaks your language well, and no pre vious history of military training with aspirations of being an operator are
no promises of success.
Re: Re: Great Replacement The
By: Arelor to Moondog on Wed Jun 15 2022 03:31 pm
Re: Re: Great Replacement The
By: Moondog to Arelor on Wed Jun 15 2022 09:53 am
Outside contractors are a way to introduce experienced trainers to les experienced troops. Volunteer forces such as their own foreign legion a way to accept foriegn fighters into service. The down side of volunteer outside forces is there are times they ask for any person wi a pulse. Imagine some CoD console jockey with no real servcie and no language skills trying to convince an officer they deserve to be a sniper.
Actually I have heard of some CoD personality joining in (can't remember which side) and getting blasted in the first 4 minutes of real battle, no you mention it.
i saw multiple instances of this. also these's a bunch of reddit nerds that
there's a young father with little kids who was ex military who went over th
Re: Re: Great Replacement The
By: Moondog to Arelor on Wed Jun 15 2022 11:00 pm
Yeah, joining a foriegn war where no one speaks your language well, and n pre vious history of military training with aspirations of being an opera are
no promises of success.
the french foreign legion makes them learn french and they pretty much walk
The high number of Russian losses is quite staggering, considering how quickly they were able to sieze territory at the start of the invasion.
One has to wonder how far they will be willing to escalate.
But at what cost to Ukraine, and the world? Ukraine's harvested wheat is dissapearing into Russia, and future harvests are in jeopardy.
Even if Russia loses, Ukraine loses too.
I'd love to see reparations, but I'm not optimistic.
Re: Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Boraxman to Kaelon on Fri Jun 10 2022 08:38 pm
The high number of Russian losses is quite staggering, considering how quickly they were able to sieze territory at the start of the invasion.
One has to wonder how far they will be willing to escalate.
Agreed. There is a lot of scholarship inside of Russia's own military acade recapturing their territory, I think it's only a matter of time before Russi _____
-=: Kaelon :=-
Russia wants the Ukraine for its resources. I doubt they would resort to nukes on land they wish to occupy. Who would take a dump in th ecoffee pot because they want the coffee all to themselves? It's hard to "Russianize" a country if you give them a long lasting reminded why they shoudl hate you.
Re: Re: Great Replacement The
By: Moondog to Kaelon on Sun Jun 19 2022 04:29 pm
Russia wants the Ukraine for its resources. I doubt they would resort to nukes on land they wish to occupy. Who would take a dump in th ecoffee p because they want the coffee all to themselves? It's hard to "Russianize country if you give them a long lasting reminded why they shoudl hate you
I agree, but Russia can ill-afford outright humiliation and Putin's greatest
huge geopolitical risk for Russia. If Ukraine outright defeats Russia and s
Russia has huge manpower problems right now, and its advances are costing it _____
-=: Kaelon :=-
_____
Arelor wrote to Kaelon <=-
Chicken food's price has multiplied by around two in a matter of three months. That automatically refects in the prices and availability of
hen derivated food. You get the idea.
Arelor wrote to Kaelon <=-
Chicken food's price has multiplied by around two in a matter of three months. That automatically refects in the prices and availability of hen derivated food. You get the idea.
Doomsayers in the US are panicked about the price of feed and hay. It's going to get ugly.
Arelor wrote to Kaelon <=-
Chicken food's price has multiplied by around two in a matter of thr months. That automatically refects in the prices and availability of hen derivated food. You get the idea.
Doomsayers in the US are panicked about the price of feed and hay. It's going to get ugly.
Re: Re: Great Replacement The
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Arelor on Fri Jun 24 2022 06:44 am
Arelor wrote to Kaelon <=-
Chicken food's price has multiplied by around two in a matter of thr months. That automatically refects in the prices and availability of hen derivated food. You get the idea.
Doomsayers in the US are panicked about the price of feed and hay. It's going to get ugly.
Hay is not an issue here by the moment, but only because this area is rich in grass and green stuff and we have had great weather for grass production this year. I have stockpiled hay for the whole year already and so far the deal has been fine.
Feed is getting expensive as heck since it requires grain, and grain production last year was a bit disasterous. When you add inflation it gets very ugly. One of Spain's top snack vendors has announced they are cutting down production because the amount of affordable grain is very reduced. I am not nervous about the feed because my horses have hay and pasture grass for the main part, but sporting or work horses with feed-intensive diets are in for a bad year.
--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
Hay is heavy. Big heavy things require fuel to move. Fuel is expensive.
Problems come when the year comes dry so not much of it
grows. Then you have to haul the hay from somewhere else or
whatever and it is a pain in the ass XD
Hello Arelor!
** On Sunday 26.06.22 - 10:52, Arelor wrote to Moondog:
Problems come when the year comes dry so not much of it
grows. Then you have to haul the hay from somewhere else or
whatever and it is a pain in the ass XD
I thought you would opt for the horsepowered version in those
circumstances not the asspowered one!
I don't think a proper war will last many years. With the debt bubble about to explode in Europe and the bank about to stop purchasing more debt from countries that need to sell debt in order not to go bankrupt, I think that if Russia is not forced to give up soon enough, a number of European countries will got "crack".
Anybody who wants to obtain a military victory over us needs not seek victory. He only has to outlasts us.
I agree that the economic picture is dire, but I don't think one can solely attribute it to Russia's invasion of Ukraine. The global supply chain remains (irretrievably, according to many economists) broken on the other side of the Pandemic (which, let's face it, is not yet really over, despite everyone's best wishes). Governments printing money have created the second serious blow with radicalized inflation that is truly "cracking" the socioeconomic classes and pushing us well past the Gilded Age in terms of the gulf between haves-and-have-nots. Russia's invasion is partly responsible for a disruption in the global grain supply, but it has also galvanized both Europe and NATO as a whole by shaking it out of its delusion of a "post-war" world order.
Very true. There are deep systemic institutional problems in the European Union. But the speed with which France, Germany, and much of the EU's core countries have lept to move away from Russian gas and towards self-sustainability, not to mention radical investment in their own militaries, reflects a deep disquiet with Russia's invasion.
Furthermore, Russia has demonstrated itself to being a paper tiger. Its military failures are so vast that any outright "outlasting" of Europe will come at tremendous cost and certainly lead to its general collapse. China, on the other hand, is quite another story.
costs. This Ukraine war is a convenient scapegoat for our economic woes.
Europe scantioned itself by refusing to purchase oil and gas with Rubles. The public will remember that this winter when energy becomes unaffordable and people have to choose between heating or eating. Heck, there's even discourse regarding rolling blackouts during peak hours.
costs. This Ukraine war is a convenient scapegoat for our economic woes.
Indeed.
Europe scantioned itself by refusing to purchase oil and gas with Rubles. The public will remember that this winter when energy becomes unaffordable and people have to choose between heating or eating. Heck, there's even discourse regarding rolling blackouts during peak hours.
But, but, but, there are a couple of Europeans in the FIDO Politics echo claiming that all is wonderful on their side of the Atlantic, and that things are only bad if you are American. :)
The quantitative easing that the goverment carried out back in 2020 when they decided that almost 100% of the population would become "public workers" has finally trickled down through all the asset classes to its final resting place in consumer goods. This is why I laughed when the FED were calling the inflation transitory as there was never anything transitory about it.
Europe scantioned itself by refusing to purchase oil and gas with Rubles. The public will remember that this winter when energy becomes unaffordable and people have to choose between heating or eating. Heck, there's even discourse regarding rolling blackouts during peak hours.
China are sitting pretty right now and have already made it known that they are sympathetic towards the Russians... The West is not in a good position seeing as almost all manufacturing and production comes from The East.
But, but, but, there are a couple of Europeans in the FIDO Politics echo claiming that all is wonderful on their side of the Atlantic, and that things are only bad if you are American. :)
gas and electricity bills and we have been warned that the prices are going to increase AGAIN this winter. You Americans are complainig about the cost of fuel however we are paying close to 2.40 USD per litre of diesel -- that is almost 11 USD per gallon. The cost of everything has increased substantially and a huge proportion of the population are going to be facing poverty later this year. This is a global economic issue so no one is shielded from this.
Re: Re: Great Replacement The
By: Dumas Walker to ANDEDDU on Thu Jul 07 2022 04:56 pm
But, but, but, there are a couple of Europeans in the FIDO Politics echo claiming that all is wonderful on their side of the Atlantic, and that things are only bad if you are American. :)
100% not true. The Eurozone is the area which is the most impacted by these political decisions. I am already paying around 2x more than normal for my g and electricity bills and we have been warned that the prices are going to increase AGAIN this winter. You Americans are complainig about the cost of f however we are paying close to 2.40 USD per litre of diesel -- that is almos 11 USD per gallon. The cost of everything has increased substantially and a huge proportion of the population are going to be facing poverty later this year. This is a global economic issue so no one is shielded from this.
---
þ Synchronet þ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
Completely agree. It's amazing to me how the primary reason that history repeats itself is that people don't understand predictable cause and effect. The quantitative easing, the constant market growth at all costs, the ceaseless bailouts -- they're a repeat of the inflationary behaviors that largely provoked the two global world wars in the early 20th Century. I often tell other kids in the SaaS companies where I work as an executive that the dot-com bust informed us who lived through it what is about to come in software, and that every other middle-manager or executive who hasn't lived through or at least studied it, is full of shit if they predict what they think this is going to look like. Half of all software companies are already insolvent because they had no fundamental underlying go-to-market strategy that was reinforced by actual inherent value streams or sustainable recurring revenue models.
It's horrifyingly naive. Look at the RUB exchange rate to the USD. Yes, it crashed during the weeks following the invasion, but it was mostly recovered by late April and now, it's higher than it has been in over five years!
https://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=RUB&to=USD
americans would never tollerate that. but dont test that theory because it's bad enough now. even though prices did drop a bit.
get drilling and get those truckers on the roads.
I am happy because Spain used to be a poor Fascist country, so we have plenty people with experience in how to deal with crap \o/
We rural rednecks have been the lautghing stock of the country for decades, but fact is that during Francoism, when everybody in Spain was poor, the people who lived in rural areas were the people who didn't starve. Nobody lived well - it was a Fascist country - but if you had some square meters of land and a chimney, you had enough to grow vegetables, produce your own eggs, cook it
all, and have spare heat for the house.
It is ironic but I think the people who are going to suffer the most is the people who have been voting for "inflationist" politicians in Spain. Those are typicaly concentrated in cities, and are going to have to buy their lettuces at 10 eurs per Kg. by the look of it.
americans would never tollerate that. but dont test that theory because it's bad enough now. even though prices did drop a bit.
get drilling and get those truckers on the roads.
The cost of fuel will go a lot higher this winter and nothing will stop that. Biden is selling away your oil reserves to foreign nations which is great, that'll help keep prices down!
Our leaders are at fault for repeatedly selling us out to China for the last 30 years. We've somehow gone from being an economic and manufactuing powerhouse to a hollowed out consumer based society with zero value. There is no viable plan to reduce public services or shrink goverment to a sustainable level and even during the Trump presidency I failed to see any tangible private sector growth.
Every successive goverment appears to believe they can print the difference between tax revenue and outgoings year on year without creating problems down the line. Well they are evidently wrong and the horror show numbers along with the soon-to-be massive rise in unemployment proof in the pudding.
The issue we now have is that the can has been kicked down the road for so long that there is no painless way to remedy the situation. I strongly belive that everything is going to come to a head later this year or next.
I find it amusing that Western leaders were criticising Putin for refusing to sell energy for USDs when the US sanctioned oligarchs and Russian businesses by freezing their dollar denominated bank accounts. The lack of basic awareness or understanding from our ruling class is astounding.
well biden is in bed with china so that's why.
honestly the usa has plenty of oil. i worked in the oil industry for almost 2 decades. if they are going to drill we will be fine.
with covid many companies sold out to their competitors so it might be a struggle to meet demands. they will do it, though.
There may be plenty oil but drilling for it goes against Biden's Green New Deal which is the hill he is willing to die on. He has stated several times that there will be no more drilling land or sea. None of that is very clever, if you ask me, because you need a lot of refined oil and you need it fast.
100% not true. The Eurozone is the area which is the most impacted by these political decisions. I am already paying around 2x more than normal for my gas
and electricity bills and we have been warned that the prices are going to increase AGAIN this winter. You Americans are complainig about the cost of fue
however we are paying close to 2.40 USD per litre of diesel -- that is almost 11 USD per gallon. The cost of everything has increased substantially and a huge proportion of the population are going to be facing poverty later this year. This is a global economic issue so no one is shielded from this.
americans would never tollerate that. but dont test that theory because it's bad enough now. even though prices did drop a bit.
get drilling and get those truckers on the roads.
The cost of fuel will go a lot higher this winter and nothing will stop that. Biden is selling away your oil reserves to foreign nations which is great, that'll help keep prices down!
americans would never tollerate that. but dont test that theory because it's bad enough now. even though prices did drop a bit.
get drilling and get those truckers on the roads.
The cost of fuel will go a lot higher this winter and nothing will stop that. Biden is selling away your oil reserves to foreign nations which is great, that'll help keep prices down!
Yes, he did that after telling us it was to make our prices go down.
He is asleep at the wheel and has no idea what is going on.
Yes, he did that after telling us it was to make our prices go down.
He is asleep at the wheel and has no idea what is going on.
maybe china has some videos of hunter biden killing prostitutes.
Yes, he did that after telling us it was to make our prices go down.
He is asleep at the wheel and has no idea what is going on.
maybe china has some videos of hunter biden killing prostitutes.
Here is one of him weighing his crack. Why would anyone videotape that?
https://youtu.be/Rj9V-XjCol8
Well it looks like Spain will go back to those days again for at least the next
5-6 years. With the cost of fertilizer rising and historically low crop yields
in conjunction with the war which looks likely to spread through Europe, now would be to grow your own food supply. Hard times are coming and it'll be the
pampered city folk who are going to struggle the most. I am sadly one of those
people in possession with little to no outdoor survival skills.
between tax revenue and outgoings year on year without creating problems down the line. Well they are evidently wrong and the horror show numbers along with the soon-to-be massive rise in unemployment proof in the pudding.
Once again, I agree. This short-term thinking is inherent to hyper-capitalist plann
Considering the example I gave in software, so much private equity and venture cap
I always hear Capitalism blamed for any politics involving growth at any cost, but when I talk to Keynesians I always think the concept of shorterm growth at any cost
is a Keynesian one.
Kaelon wrote to Andeddu <=-
Our leaders are at fault for repeatedly selling us out to China for the last 30 years. We've somehow gone from being an economic and manufactuing powerhouse to a hollowed out consumer based society with zero value. There is no viable plan to reduce public services or shrink goverment to a sustainable level and even during the Trump presidency I failed to see any tangible private sector growth.
I agree, and if you study root causes of our economic inter-dependence
and transformation into a consumer-only society
I had a lot of this stuff in 2008-2009. People was blaming Capitalism for caus
g the
crisis with growth at any cost politics. Then you talked to Keynesians and the
solution for the crisis was to print lots of money and give it away to the pop
ation
so they could keep on spending and spending in order to keep the consumist whe
turning.
I agree, and if you study root causes of our economic inter-dependence and transformation into a consumer-only society, the liability rests with the rise of corporate syndicates in the early 1970s after the demise of the Nixon Administration. All of the industrial and commercial infrastructure in the 1980s and 1990s, while largely responsible for dramatic technological innovation, has been solely focused on the consumer experience and hardly on the creation of systemic and inherent value streams.
Once again, I agree. This short-term thinking is inherent to hyper-capitalist planning which emphasizes quarterly results and monthly incrementalism, so as to maximize shareholder value, but results in extremely unstable businesses and countless bubbles. Considering the example I gave in software, so much private equity and venture capital behavior has been designed to build these unsustainable capitalized experiments that return "3-5x" of their value to PEs over a 24-36 month period, that when they finally enter real market conditions and start stumbling with longer-term institutional investors, they become ripe targets for acquisition and dismemberment. Richard Gere's character from "Pretty Woman" must be sitting pretty with his business model. ;)
Final note - I am in workforce management as an industry, and late last year we started seeing huge shifts that have been building for over a decade, but are unprecedented in their scale. The Pandemic, the Supply Chain Woes, the Energy Crisis, and even the Wars and geopolitical re-alignment that accompany them -- these are all symptomatic and/or aggrivating factors of a much needed realignment in our entire economic system. And its collapse will be far worse than anything anyone has ever seen, but it really didn't have to be this way. Now, however, it's too late - and all of our institutions, from our government to our financial markets, will be liquidated in this process.
The arrogance is astounding, especially when humbler and well-informed economists were pointing out really basic facts that most second-year undergraduate college students would understand: Russia is isolated and silo'ed from the entire global economic system, and despite the collaspe of the Soviet Union and the following almost-gleeful pillaging of Russia as a country by the West, the Russian Elites skillfully manipulated foreign markets to borrow money ceaselessly on extremely favorable terms, but never integrated institutional safeguards, controls, or many of the other systems that ensure Russia would become integrated. The end result: Russia is its own entity, and very little that the globe does to force Russia economically will have much bearing, considering just how isolated Russia is.
China, on the other hand, is a very different story. China gambled big on essentially joining the U.S.-led economic world order -- a fact reinforced by the countless times that China has invested in, and bailed out, the United States as the titular leader of this order -- while concurrently preserving its authoritarian political systems. It has really worked to China's benefit, considering that by and large, China's greatest asset - its population - is also it's largest liability. China would have to contend with five distinctively hostile societies that are eager to tear each other to shreds and resolve centuries of disputes that would fracture the country, if it ever adopted anything resembling a consensus-driven liberal political system.
he says one thing but does another. i dont think they've ever stopped drilling because these companies hold vouchers. they stocked up on them.
I will agree that it is global and no one is shielded.
That said, fuel has always been more expensive in Europe (and Canada, for that matter). What percentage increase is the 2.40 USD for diesel? Here, gasoline is over 4.00/gal USD, while diesel is close to 6.00/gal USD. Not sure about diesel, but that is a 2X+ increase for gasoline here. In other states, it is a whole dollar or more per gallon now beyond what it is here.
I remember driving by a poor village with the boss when he told me he had been born there. The village had a vibe of ruin and poverty. He started
talking about the old days in which nobody could afford transport and getting >on a donkey on a trip out of the valley was an adventure.
This was some years ago but I have been thinking of that conversation a lot as >of late, because I see it happening again.
Re: Re: Great Replacement The
By: MRO to Andeddu on Sun Jul 10 2022 04:20 pm
he says one thing but does another. i dont think they've ever stopped drilling because these companies hold vouchers. they stocked up on them.
I hope you're right. I would beg-to-differ though as I cannot see costs going down. The economy has tanked too much and there is far too many infastructural, geo-political and economical problems to keep the nation in a tolerable state.
I will, of course, say the same for my own country as our elites are also recklessly destructive and breathtakingly incompetent.
Kaelon wrote to Arelor <=-
Capitalism with safeguards and proper institutional regulation is necessary in order to build a long-term vision that ensures that vulnerable investors are protected from exploitation, and that
companies have to demonstrate their actual value so that informed investors can be - well, informed! Private Equity, especially in technology, is largely responsible for obfuscating real value and there
is now a reckoning where more than half of all technology companies in
the world are fundamentally insolvent.
Re: Re: Recession to Depression
By: Arelor to Andeddu on Tue Jul 12 2022 02:47 am
I remember driving by a poor village with the boss when he told me he had been born there. The village had a vibe of ruin and poverty. He started
talking about the old days in which nobody could afford transport and getting >on a donkey on a trip out of the valley was an adventure.
This was some years ago but I have been thinking of that conversation a lot as >of late, because I see it happening again.
I have been adamant over the last decade that we are living in the death throes of our civilisation. I am very disappointed that I appear to have been vindicated as being wrong would have brought me much joy. We are defnitely going back to the hard times that you speak of.
Capitalism with safeguards and proper institutional regulation is necessary in order to build a long-term vision that ensures that vulnerable investors are protected from exploitation, and that companies have to demonstrate their actual value so that informed investors can be - well, informed! Private Equity, especially in technology, is largely responsible for obfuscating real value and there is now a reckoning where more than half of all technology companies in the world are fundamentally insolvent.
This pile of nonsence is what is called "soft socialism".
"Capitalism is great, but it needs to be controlled". "Controlled" meaning run by "smart" people, usually the state, which only has people who think that they are smart.
The lame excuses of "we need to 'protect' people from exploitation" is the normal cry. In Capitalism there are risks - that's just part of life. And having the gov't "protect" people from their mistakes is just keeping them like children - and controlling them.
I've thought that for a while too, and often I've wondered whether I should think that or not. But the further that time goes on, the clearer and clearer the truth becomes, we are in a severe decline and its not just me getting older.
I think the biggest problem is lack of revolutionary though. We are stuck with old ideas, with ideology, thinking that ideology (Whether it is Capitalism or Socialism) will get us out.
I think the biggest problem is lack of revolutionary though. We are stuck with old ideas, with ideology, thinking that ideology (Whether it is Capitalism or Socialism) will get us out.
Although the ordinary man may lack revolutionary thought, I believe there is a revolution going on and we are moving in a very specific direction. It would be hard for me to belive that there is NO PLAN once our civilation collapses... there will always be a kind of contingency plan.
I spent the afternoon in Silicon Valley, went shopping at an outdoor mall I used to go to when I was a kid. We're in one of the most overpriced real estate markets, and it felt like the number of retail shops had dwindled, to be replaced by overpriced food and real estate offices. I suppose you can't afford retail any more - Amazon will eat your lunch if you're selling commodity goods and local specialty retail can't pay the exorbitant rent.
It's a shame.
This pile of nonsence is what is called "soft socialism".
"Capitalism is great, but it needs to be controlled". "Controlled" meaning run by "smart" people, usually the state, which only has people who think that they are smart.
The lame excuses of "we need to 'protect' people from exploitation" is the normal cry. In Capitalism there are risks - that's just part of life. And having the gov't "protect" people from their mistakes is just keeping them like children - and controlling them.
Absolutely. We no longer have capitalism, we have corporatism otherwise known as late-stage capitalism, which is essentially globalism. Governments are monoliths that pry into every aspect of our lives compared to half a century ago when they were serving as mere administrators. The Western economy is built on war and the dominance Middle-Eastern oil. Once the USD loses its position as the World Reserve Currency, which will no doubt happen very soon, the USA is finished.
Yep. We will see many fewer start-ups going forward now too as interest rates have to continually increase to combat inflation.
We are going to see a lot less capital going around resulting in another credit crunch. The cost of living crisis is going to wipe away the remaining small and medium sized businesses as the public are no longer going be in possession of expendable income with which to visit resturaunts, drink in bars, go on holiday and purchase luxury items. Like I mentioned before... fuel in the UK is has risen by around 80% since last year and the cost of energy has risen 2x with it being purported to increase 3x by this winter. Small and medium sized businesses are NOT going to see the other side of this and will be forced to let their workforce go resulting in mass unemployment.
Carbon Net Zero is a massive problem too and one which will seal the deal on our path to destruction.
I agree. The Russian Elites have been maneuvered themselves into a strong position and have shielded their public from the extreme hardship that will face The West's population. Their Elites are playing 4D chess while our Elites are playing Blackjack. We are getting destroyed every single day and the media can do nothing but lie and cheerlead us into what appears will become WWIII.
The Chinese are in a far better position than any Western nation as they hold the master-production for all our goods. Now that they are seriously reducing their exports to the West, we will soon experince shortages and price hikes. All Xi Jinping has to do now is unite his population by creating a new middle-class, much like the USA did during the 50s-60s, in order to secure their position as the premier world superpower. They will soon have no use for the USA's soon-to-be worthless currency which has been effectively printed into oblivion.
Boraxman wrote to Dr. What <=-
That is not socailism. It is not near socialism.
Capitalism run amok leads to exploitation and crisis because the particular forces that drive it have no countervailing force.
Kaelon wrote to Dr. What <=-
system, they should have been all allowed to fail. Where are your
cries for the lame excuses of banks and manufacturing in 2008-2009, or
for airlines, commodities traders, and real estate speculators now in
the 2020-2022 Pandemic period?
Revolution doesn't mean revolutionary thought. We could have a "revolution" where Marxist-Communists take over. That is old thought.
The problem as I see it, is that we are stuck with old ideas and cannot imagine any change. Economically, the debate seems stuck between "Capitalism" and "Socialism" (at least Socialism as envisaged by Marxist/Statists) and we think that we have to choose between the two. We can't imagine any new system or new novel ways of looking at property rights, or carrying on the evolution of our economic system further. Everything is petty. UBI changes nothing. Stakeholder Capitalism is just the same old system with a new face. Politically we are stuck again with old ideas. Nothing really new, except for maybe the SJW's, but that really is just rehashed Christian guilt.
We're looking at all these problems, and can't think of any new direction to go in to solve them. We cant imagine anything outside the "Capitalism/Communism" dichotomy, so we are limited by that. We can't imagine anything oustide of "Liberalism/Conservatism", so we are limited by that.
We need something like a new Enlightenment. One isn't coming.
It's hard to imagine another currency being preferred over the United States Dollar, but we're going to find out soon enough. The EUR probably has another 20-30% more to decline -- parity with the USD was just a start. The RUB resiliance is a local silo'ed matter, and all Asian currencies are a total disaster right now.
Arguably, many of these startups shouldn't have had access to the capital that they were able to cheaply get. Again, the short-term "syndicate corporatism," or "late-stage capitalism," as you rightly describe it, has painted myopic portraits of financial worthiness for what are, in essence, barely seed-stage proof-of-concept companies. They aren't even product companies (genuine startup material), let alone customer-centric corporations (those that are truly worthy of the public's risk-taking on the open markets). Fortunately, we're seeing a total liquidation of the bullshit SaaS industry. More than half of these companies are insolvent, and this year so far, 357 of them have laid off over 53,000 employees.
Don't even get me started on the absurdity of trying to create economic currency models to stimulate voluntary restrictions on carbon emissions. Scientifically, it's too late for humans to impact the planetary trajectory (we would have had to make drastic changes to our agricultural and early-industrial model in the 1820s, for crying out loud); but, more broadly, Economically, this sort of faux-currency and exchange of "carbon credits" is creating economies that willingly self-sabotage any form of supply-and-demand and reward cheating-countries with unfair advantages. _____
I am not sure that I actually agree that China is a far better position than any Western nation right now. Yes, economically, they've centered themselves as the world's producer. But geopolitically, they are trapped. More than 80% of Chinese territory is actually largely unusable and unsuitable terrain, and given the distribution of this terrain and its vast population, it is largely constrained and, in essence, an island. And, let's not forget, it is really at least five distinct cultures with visceral hatred towards one another.
As the global economy collapses over the next 6-12 months, China will be forced to confront its reckoning on the disasterous socioeconomic mismanagement of its population. We're not even talking about the predictable consequences of the One Child Policy - which has resulted in a material disproportion of men over women, causing everything from forced marriages and mass-rapes in the countryside to modern chattel slavery of women in the cities - but broader population control measures during this Pandemic. That latter approach has resulted in a collapse of its metropolitan economies, and the loss of global trading prestige. No one wants to attempt to enter Chinese exchanges now, not even Hong Kong (for obvious reasons). What a failure.
You should actually **read** my messages before replying to them.
No country is shielded from the global downturn but I believe China will be able to whether the storm better than most other nations. They have secured 2 years of grain supply for their entire population compared to Western nations, including the USA, who appear to have only a 6 month supply in storage. They have far better food security, more efficent energy production along with an extensive manufacturing sector.
Frankly, this is bullshit. Our economic system has had numerous safeguards for institutions and corporations - such as the "bailouts" that the government (i.e., taxpayers) ensured that big banks would receive and the even large-scale industrial corporations would receive, when their risky models folded in 2008-2009. In a true Capitalist system, they should have been all allowed to fail. Where are your cries for the lame excuses of banks and manufacturing in 2008-2009, or for airlines, commodities traders, and real estate speculators now in the 2020-2022 Pandemic period?
Let them all fail. And then we can talk about the "lame excuses" of the very valid truth that corporations have co-opted our political institutions. This isn't Capitalism, Dr. What. This is syndicate corporatism. And that's not what entrepreneurial people and innovators signed up for.
_____
That is not socailism. It is not near socialism.
Which is the standard response from the socialists.
"No, this isn't socialism. It's just gov't control over the markets."
particular forces that drive it have no countervailing force.
Right out of Marx. Did you quote that directly, or just paraphrase?
Revolution doesn't mean revolutionary thought. We could have a "revolution" where Marxist-Communists take over. That is old thought.
The problem as I see it, is that we are stuck with old ideas and cannot imagine any change. Economically, the debate seems stuck between "Capitalism" and "Socialism" (at least Socialism as envisaged by Marxist/Statists) and we think that we have to choose between the two.
We can't imagine any new system or new novel ways of looking at property rights, or carrying on the evolution of our economic system further. Everything is petty. UBI changes nothing. Stakeholder Capitalism is just the same old system with a new face. Politically we are stuck again with old ideas. Nothing really new, except for maybe the SJW's, but that really is just rehashed Christian guilt.
We're looking at all these problems, and can't think of any new direction to go in to solve them. We cant imagine anything outside the "Capitalism/Communism" dichotomy, so we are limited by that. We can't imagine anything oustide of "Liberalism/Conservatism", so we are limited by that.
We need something like a new Enlightenment. One isn't coming.
I don't disagree but I see Capitalism/Communism as two sides of the same system with us presently in the phase where Eastern Communism merges with Western Capitalism which will be destined to collapse into the new world system.
There will always be the haves and the have nots, elites and non-elites. This will occur in all systems old or new which have been authorised for our use.
Re: Re: Recession to Depression
By: Boraxman to Andeddu on Sat Jul 16 2022 02:38 pm
Revolution doesn't mean revolutionary thought. We could have a "revoluti where Marxist-Communists take over. That is old thought.
The problem as I see it, is that we are stuck with old ideas and cannot imagine any change. Economically, the debate seems stuck between "Capitalism" and "Socialism" (at least Socialism as envisaged by Marxist/Statists) and we think that we have to choose between the two. W can't imagine any new system or new novel ways of looking at property rights, or carrying on the evolution of our economic system further. Everything is petty. UBI changes nothing. Stakeholder Capitalism is jus the same old system with a new face. Politically we are stuck again with old ideas. Nothing really new, except for maybe the SJW's, but that real is just rehashed Christian guilt.
We're looking at all these problems, and can't think of any new direction go in to solve them. We cant imagine anything outside the "Capitalism/Communism" dichotomy, so we are limited by that. We can't imagine anything oustide of "Liberalism/Conservatism", so we are limited that.
We need something like a new Enlightenment. One isn't coming.
I don't disagree but I see Capitalism/Communism as two sides of the same sys with us presently in the phase where Eastern Communism merges with Western Capitalism which will be destined to collapse into the new world system.
There will always be the haves and the have nots, elites and non-elites. Thi will occur in all systems old or new which have been authorised for our use.
Boraxman wrote to Dr. What <=-
"No, this isn't socialism. It's just gov't control over the markets."
They is actually more akin to fascism.
Besides, modern "Capitalism" is control over the economy by a few
anyway.
You have to show how it is WRONG. Just saying that Marx might have
said something like that doesn't prove or disprove anything.
Kaelon wrote to Dr. What <=-
It was rhetorical. I wasn't talking about "you, Dr. What," I was
talking about "you," the arch-capitalist defending the current
nonsense.
The problem as I see it, is that we are stuck with old
ideas and cannot imagine any change. Economically, the
debate seems stuck between "Capitalism" and "Socialism" (at
least Socialism as envisaged by Marxist/Statists) and we
think that we have to choose between the two. We can't
imagine any new system or new novel ways of looking at
property rights, or carrying on the evolution of our
economic system further. Everything is petty. UBI changes
nothing. Stakeholder Capitalism is just the same old
system with a new face. Politically we are stuck again
with old ideas. Nothing really new, except for maybe the
SJW's, but that really is just rehashed Christian guilt.
We need something like a new Enlightenment. One isn't
coming.
You seem to have a strange idea that what we have today is Capitalism. It's not. Because of all the gov't "regulations" and other elitist interference, it's closer to Socialism - hence the problems you are rallying against.
They is actually more akin to fascism.
Which is a form of socialism.
The ignorant words of Marx. He has a great deal to say about how an economy works - even though he never worked a day in his life.
And if all you are going to do is quote the ignorant words of Marx, that is
not showing that you are right.
And I was talking about not seeing things that I didn't write.
You seem to have a strange idea that what we have today is Capitalism. It's not. Because of all the gov't "regulations" and other elitist interference, it's closer to Socialism - hence the problems you are rallying against.
Not many people think in terms of when enough is enough.
Sounds like there are some interesting thoughts by these
people:
[o] The Future is Degrowth: A Guide to a World Beyond
Capitalism | Paperback
Matthias Schmelzer | Andrea Vetter | Aaron Vansintjan
Verso Books | Verso
Political Science / Political Economy / Public Policy - Environmental Policy / History & Theory
Published Jun 28, 2022
"This book provides a vision for postcapitalism beyond growth.
Building on a vibrant field of research, it discusses the
political economy and the politics of a non-growing economy. It
charts a path forward through policies that democratise the
economy, "now-topias" that create free spaces for
experimentation, and counter-hegemonic movements that make it
possible to break with the logic of growth. Degrowth
perspectives offer a way to step off the treadmill of an
alienating, expansionist, and hierarchical system."
Kaelon wrote to Dr. What <=-
I am in agreement. We're in a Corporatist Dystopia, not in a genuine Capitalist structure. I've started a separate thread with Boraxxman to this extent, and encourage your thoughts here. Is there any way to
unwind this madness in which we find ourselves? Or is it too late?
Boraxman wrote to Dr. What <=-
Whatever definition of Socialism you have in mind, must be so broad
that it captures everything but your preferred 'ideal'. Which isn't really a useful definition at all.
OK, so everyone who has extolled the virtues of the Free Market, who
I didn't quote Marx. Show me which of Marx's quotes or words I used.
I'm not even a Marxist.
Boraxman wrote to Dr. What <=-
Pray tell, which countries ARE Capitalst then? Is there even ONE?
It's never too late. But the longer we stay in this mess, the longer it will take to get out. We already have a couple generations of young people who have been miseducated into thinking that socialism can actually work (despite the mountains of evidence showing otherwise).
Not anymore. We used to have one, but then people like you wrecked it.
But that's normal: The Left ruins everything it touches.
I see we have another miseducated person here. I suggest that you actually read history - especially the areas of Italy, Germany and Russia just before WWII.
Ignoring the usual ignorant strawman people like you make: Take what I say to an illogical extreme then claim I'm wrong because of that.
You did. But you not knowing you did shows your ignorance. Until you've overcome that ignorance, it's not possible to discuss anything with you.
This is part of the problem with people like you: You "discuss" from a point of "I'm right. Period." without entertaining the idea that you might be wrong.
So instead of listening, doing your own research, etc. and seeing for yourself, you expect the person that you argue with to do all the research (and wasting their time and energy) just for you to say "I don't agree."
Not anymore. We used to have one, but then people like you wrecked it.
But that's normal: The Left ruins everything it touches.
Kaelon wrote to Dr. What <=-
I wonder what can be done at this stage of Corporate Syndicate control
to unwind this affair? Is it re-education of young people re: the socialist or nationalized / syndicate control schemes that exist today
and why they are actually bad? Is it the creation of a true Capitalist system somewhere else that can show it works better? (Kind of like how the American Colonies demonstrated a lighter hand of capitalism could out-perform English Mercantilism?)
Or are we looking at something more revolutionary in store for our societies across the globe?
Margaerynne wrote to Dr. What <=-
When? During the 80s, when grants and high taxes subsidized education
for many Americans?
During the 60s and 70s when union membership was significantly higher?
During the 90s, when the government was tossing money at anyone who
"knew the cyber"?
Go on, say something firm that you can be fact-checked on. None of
this "Oh, it happened somewhere somewhen, but I can't say it [because
then that'd be committing to a truth]" nonsense.
Go on, say something firm that you can be fact-checked on. None of this "Oh, it happened somewhere somewhen, but I can't say it [because then that'd be committing to a truth]" nonsense.
I'll throw that right back at you. Show me a Leftie program that actually did what they claimed it would. Because
their track record shows that no such program exists.
Both need to be done.
We need to get the gov't out of business. They should not regulate to the extent that they do (why do I need to ask the gov't for permission to run a business?, for example). They should not pick the winners and losers.
But if we don't have a populace that thinks that big gov't is a bad idea, then they will keep electing the elitists who created the mess that we have today.
Or are we looking at something more revolutionary in store for our societies across the globe?
And that's a good question. Not something that I can assess. With America descending, that opens the possibilities that some other countries may take over.
Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
By: Dr. What to Kaelon on Sun Jul 17 2022 02:12 pm
You should actually **read** my messages before replying to them.
It was rhetorical. I wasn't talking about "you, Dr. What," I was talking about "you
_____
-=: Kaelon :=-
---
þ Synchronet þ Vertrauen þ Home of Synchronet þ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
Not many people think in terms of when enough is enough.
Sounds like there are some interesting thoughts by these
people:
[o] The Future is Degrowth: A Guide to a World Beyond
Capitalism | Paperback
Matthias Schmelzer | Andrea Vetter | Aaron Vansintjan
Verso Books | Verso
Political Science / Political Economy / Public Policy - Environmental Policy / Hist
Published Jun 28, 2022
"This book provides a vision for postcapitalism beyond growth.
Building on a vibrant field of research, it discusses the
political economy and the politics of a non-growing economy. It
charts a path forward through policies that democratise the
economy, "now-topias" that create free spaces for
experimentation, and counter-hegemonic movements that make it
possible to break with the logic of growth. Degrowth
perspectives offer a way to step off the treadmill of an
alienating, expansionist, and hierarchical system."
They is actually more akin to fascism.
Which is a form of socialism.
What? Seriously, what??!
Whatever definition of Socialism you have in mind, must be so broad that it capture
Actually, the arch-capitalists were the ones saying to let the failed banks crash and rot, or if any institution was not willing to do that, to arrange a solution for a profit.
Here in Spain we had lots of banks buying crashed banks because of their customer portfolio.
Margaerynne wrote to Dr. What <=-
I asked you first, Senator. The question was "Can you give a concrete example of what you claimed?"
Kaelon wrote to Dr. What <=-
Completely agree. Also consider the limited areas where a national government should legitimately function - such as defense,
infrastructure, conducting an equitable and non-entangling foreign
policy - and we quickly see where our vast Federal Institutions have failed our people. I forget where I read this, but aren't something
like a third of all bridges and roads in the United States on the verge
of collapse? What a disgrace.
Libertarianism has a long way to go to educate people about the
personal responsibility necessary to cultivate a truly civic-minded society.
You and I both. I don't have especially high hopes for any other Anglo-Saxon or Nordic Country, considering the entire Commonwealth has veered towards socialist principles and even the most promising candidate-countries - like Australia - are positively leftist and
bloated in comparison to what I would expect of a true capitalist
system.
That said, I fear that the United States' socioeconomic decline and impending political collapse will not, conversely, equate to a real geopolitical decline in our standing in the world. After all, the
United States has the most enviable position on the planet - geographically capable of dominating both the Atlantic and Pacific
Oceans, dictating the circumstances of global trade unlike any other country, and topographically capable of harvesting vast natural
resources to achieve its organizational aims.
What our next
global order will be, however, terrifies me, and I can only pray we
will long be gone before we have to live through it (or under it).
Road funding is interesting. Speaking about the Interstate road system:
+ Taxes are collected locally.
+ Sent to the Federal Gov't.
+ Who then doles it back out to the states to "maintain the Interstate" in their own states.
But (like here in Michigan) the governors use that money to fund social programs instead. And the unions suck a great deal of that money up as well to "fix" the roads.
That's really the job of the public education system. But the Elites have destroyed that.
Surprisingly, it seems that the USSR is poised to be the economic powerhouse of the future.
I believe that matters less when many countries have missiles that can hit anywhere on the planet. And to be militarily dominant, you need a well-equiped military. But to get that, you have to have an economic engine capable of doing that.
Remember: The USSR fell mainly because we caused them to over spend militarily.
And I don't waste my time and energy on people who refuse to look for themselves.Then I'll continue living as I've been, unconvinced of the point you won't even put the effort into substantiating.
Science is a lie.
Truth is relative.
People cannot be trusted.
Arelor wrote to Kaelon <=-
Actually, the arch-capitalists were the ones saying to let the failed banks crash and rot, or if any institution was not willing to do that,
to arrange a solution for a profit.
In practical terms, this shows when Western Socialists are seen trying to prov
e
Socialism for everybody (such as immigrants or poor people not related to the country)
while Fascists want Socialism for nationals only.
- Science is a lie.
- Truth is all relative.
- People cannot be trusted.
It would also seem that some of the people who point to "science" in some instances believe it to be relative, like truth, in others.
Actually, you can trust people. You will get a knife in between your ribs if you make such mistake, though.
Doubts cast on Truth and Science originate from the fact that most people does not use primary sources to inform themselves and rely on other people (who cannot be trusted) for that.
Kaelon wrote to Dr. What <=-
It's a very strong indictment of the quaintness of our federalist
system. Our institutions have veered so far from Hamilton and Madison that the way in which the Federal Government and States interact monetarily is a profane "saving the phenomenon" that doesn't ultimately benefit constituents or citizens at any level.
In Massachusetts, like much of the Northeast, we deal with a typical inbalance. We pay far more in taxes - both locally and federally - than
we receive back in services. The Federal Government redistributes
income taxes collected to poorer and less developed regions of the country.
Elitists. And now, we have a vastly stupid population that believes things like:
- Science is a lie.
- Truth is all relative.
- People cannot be trusted.
Welcome to 1984.
the West, at least, not anytime soon. You rightly point out that our Strategic Defense Initiative, and other intense military spending under President Reagan, precipitated the Soviet Union's collapse. But this
was possible less due to financial systematic reasons, and much more
due to the limited resources available to Russia to actually marshal
and harness production capabilities to match the rest of the Western Alliance.
I completely agree. The United States is so far ahead of the rest of
the world - not just in sheer military capacity, but also in absolute military technology and innovation
Margaerynne wrote to Dr. What <=-
Then I'll continue living as I've been, unconvinced of the point you won't even put the effort into substantiating.
Not the most desirable outcome for a debate, I'm sure, but it's the
only one you seem capable of achieving. Anything else would require
proof ;)
Oh, ya. But I figured that the Elitists and their hangers-on have been slowly perverting the system since the start.
Sometimes they overstep and get caught, but not often enough.
And it's made worse because a good chunk of that money is skimmed off by various people through the process. Contracts to do something given to a buddy, for example. Grants made to others, which kick the money back in the form of political donations. Etc.
Plus what they claim to be "science" is not science, but rather the musings of the Ignorant Elitists who happen to have a worthless degree.
Postmodernism has been around a long time. Mostly in the ignorant "intellectual" classes.
A general breakdown of society helps them seize power.
Maybe closer to "Atlas Shrugged".
But my point was that we basially had a "military spending war" and we won because we had more money to spend. If we have less, such a war isn't going to turn out good for us.
But we are squandering that lead. The amount of wokeness in the military is truely alarming.
Actually, you can trust people. You will get a knife in between your ribs you make such mistake, though.
No doubt, but there is an inherent cost to the fabric of civilization when y in our civilization.
[o] The Future is Degrowth: A Guide to a World Beyond
Capitalism | Paperback
Matthias Schmelzer | Andrea Vetter | Aaron Vansintjan
Haven't heard of this book, but it seems like one that is
worth adding to my reading queue. [...]
to consume less, but we have little choice with regards to
production. Most people are employed, and the company is
controlled by a few who choose how much is produced, and we
have to produce in excess to take part in the economy, to
pay rent, buy a house.
It would also seem that some of the people who point to "science" in some instances believe it to be relative, like truth, in others.
Very true. U.S. Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan (D-NY) once famously said "You
re entitled to your own opinions, but you are not entitled to your own facts."
ery eloquent corollary to the Federalist Papers where Alexander Hamilton summa
zes the dilemma with our Republic - it only works with a well-educated populat
n. Little wonder, then, how we've arrived at the current dilemma.
What? Seriously, what??!
Whatever definition of Socialism you have in mind, must be so broad that it capture
If you check the political programs of actual Fascist groups, you will notice they areMany Western Socialists are Marxist in nature, or more specifically, Trotskyites
Socialist programs.
The main difference between a Fascist State and a Communist State is that Communism
does what it does in the name of The Workers while Fascists do for Our Country.
In practical terms, this shows when Western Socialists are seen trying to provide
Socialism for everybody (such as immigrants or poor people not related to the country)
while Fascists want Socialism for nationals only.
--
Yes. And I am in full agreement with the concept that true Capitalism, without institutional interference but with some basic safeguards to ensure that consolidation to exploit consumers is restricted, has to have clear risks to match their rewards. Banks have enjoyed vast profits with almost no real risk of collapse.
True Capitalism would have allowed all of the banks to fail. And would have never allowed such a thing as "too big to fail" to exist. But, as we've discussed elsewhere, the Western Global Order is not capitalist. It is a Corporate Syndicate that reflects the consolidation of economic and political pillars in our society stemming from the Post-War Order.
_____
The idea is that if a business fails, you free up the capital for a new business built on stronger foundations/ideals. You don't patch a sinking ship, you build a better ship.
I would think that if/when people can be satisfied by consuming
less, then production/imports wouldn't be an issue.. and all of
us would settle into a 3 or 4-day work week.
Fascism is only "Socialism" in that the state runs things, but the state doe commerce and production. This is the kind of sophistry that allows North Ko Socialism, only the propagandist elements of anti-Capitalist thought.
Fascism is only "Socialism" in that the state runs things, but the state doesn
represent the will of the people. It is on paper perhaps socialism, but in p
ctice totalitarianism. The public don't really have any practical rights to c
trol industry, commerce and production. This is the kind of sophistry that al
ws North Korea to proclaim itself Democratic. I mean, the ruling dynasty is t
head of the people, right? Some of Hitlers writing sounded positively Marxis
but there was never any real Socialism, only the propagandist elements of ant
Capitalist thought.
The thing is that when I run into your average Humanist who thinks we should all love each other like brothers,the first idea that comes to mind is that person has never stepped out of his ivory tower.
It is when you decopuple work from profit that things go very wrong. For example, if you pay your constructor contractor in advance, you are in for a world of pain, because the contractor has a very weak incentive to perform well now he has the money - money he will use to work for somebody else who has not paid already.
Success comes from realizing that most people will backstab you for a bag of chewing gum and keeping a close circle of trustworthy friends from the 5% that would not murder their mothers for pocket change.
What *IS* true Capitalism? Serious question. IT seems to me like saying if we has TRUE Christianity then.... That just invites debate as to which is the true Christianity. Is it the Catholics, the Orthodox, Jehovah's Witnesses?
I'd argue that no State represents the will of the people, and therefore, any Socialist State does not represent the will of the people either. Therefore, according to your logic, Socialism is not Socialism (which is absurd).
Fascism didn't make a flag from authoritarism. It made a flag of principles such as not leaveing anybody behind, organizing strategic industries in Unions in order to preserve everybody's rights, and improving the standing of everybody by improving the standing of the nation (because the nation is the people).
Spanish Fascism stablished lots of Socialists programs still in use today, such as Social Security and State funded housing for the poor, because General Franco was the benevolent overseer who ensured not one of us was left behind.
Of course, if you disliked Franco or the vertical Unions, you disliked Spain and therefore you disliked every Spaniard. As such, you were a Communist traitor and we had to shoot you in order to protect our rights.
Socialism and, especially its cousin Communism, are only socialism on paper also. In practice, they are also usually totalitarian and certainly are not really the will of the people. North Korea is a good example. The Stalinist USSR, Maoist China, and Venezuela are also good examples.
First of all, I would never advance dogma as part of a central truth.
Truths have factual elements born from observation and experimentation to establish their systems of tautology. Dogma would advance absolutes regardless of facts, and the idea that "Capitalism must look exactly like this in order for it to be qualified as capitalism," is misguided zealotry, at best.
Capitalism's central tautological tenets, therefore, have been borne out through history, and I understand them to be as follows, at their "core":
1. Free Markets, open to easy and unencumbered entrance by new players, to spur genuine competition so that customers have comparable choices and companies have incentives to innovate.
2. Anti-Trust, so that large companies do not consolidate the marketplace to eliminate the possibility of new entrants from competing or limit the choices that consumers have when determining what to purchase.
3. Transparency, in understanding the way in which companies are managing their businesses so that shareholders can make informed decisions about where to invest and how to cast votes.
4. Accountability, in ensuring that for every reward gained there is a proportional and real risk endured in the marketplace by its actors, and that success is rewarded and failure accordingly punished.
5. Openness, in ensuring that government does not interfere in the participation in its market by creating favored winners or losers, but whose only laws and regulations exist to enforce the above characteristics.
Those are my views. What do you think? Capitalism shouldn't be a religion. It should be a constant civic virtue to make the system work through freedom, anti-trust, transparency, risk-and-reward, and institutional openness.
_____
I stated that there were different types of Socialism which are in detail, q t you can have State sponsored Capitalism or Libertarianism/Anarcho-Capitali
The reason I ask is that usually when I discuss another system, which ticks "Socialist".
Kaelon wrote to Dr. What <=-
Yes. Unions in the Northeast are a disaster, largely because they have outlived their longevity.
I don't disagree that new Unions are needed
to help workers organize and engage in collective bargaining in cases where there is limited competition and corporations aren't engaging
with a long-term vision in mind (such as Starbucks, Amazon, and the
like).
But construction work is notoriously corrupt, and construction
unions are an absurd abuse by and large because union management - not
the workers - skim the real deals struck with government and big
business.
There is no doubt that Elitists remain in power thanks in large part to Roman-style bread-and-circuses. I mentioned elsewhere that if we
managed to break down the cycle of junk-food entertainment ("infotainment") and genuine malnutrition of the vast majority of the population, conditions would start to change quickly.
I am less concerned about Russia's capability to match the United
States, let alone the entirety of the Western Alliance, with military
or economic means. It is, by and large, a third-rate power that has
been exposed being geopolitically beholden to second-world countries.
It is a tremendous humiliation for Putin. China, on the other hand,
has what it takes and has been embarking on a very concerted push.
You think there's "wokeness" in the military? I would love to
understand why you think that.
I think there is an absolute
authoritarian and fascist bent, especially among junior officers and rank-and-file who have not really been thoroughly indoctrinated into
the civic virtues that the Armed Forces are renowned for instilling in their organization.
Arelor wrote to Kaelon <=-
Sorry, but people is inherently untrustworthy and this is evident for anybody who ever tries to push forward a personal project that needs support from other people. Friends are your friends only as long as it does not cost them any effort. Once your friendship requires
maintenance on their part, you can kiss your friends goodbie.
Success comes from realizing that most people will backstab you for a
bag of chewing gum and keeping a close circle of trustworthy friends
from the 5% that would not murder their mothers for pocket change.
It would be like me talking about 'cats', and you imagining house cats when I'
referring to Lions and Jaguars.
The Bruce Schneier book "Liars and Outliars" comes to mind. He goes over wh most people are honest, why a few people are almost always dishonest, and wh honest people will sometimes be dishonest. It's actually quite interesting.
But I disagree with your idea that people are inherently untrustworthy. The are completely trustworthy: to do what is in **their**, not **your**, best interests. Once you understand that, you don't do things like always pay upfront, for example.
Arelor wrote to Dr. What <=-
That is all good in paper.
My observation from playing hundres of board games is that people is actually very bad at deciding for the best option for themselves and
that there are lots of arbitrary psychological factors kicking in. This also applies in real life in spades, but I bring up board games because the impact is measurable.
Fast forward to real life, I can tell so many stories about people backstabbing a third party for 3000 EUR of benefit when a deal between
the two would have made them tens of thousand of Euro. It is freaking nuts.
This applies in so many fields of life. Jack has hut where he throws parties with friends. One day the wind damages the roof very badly and Jack asks for friends for help in order to get it repaired, because
Jack is one-handed and has a wooden peg for a leg. Game theory dictates
that at least one of Jack's friends will help out, because for a
limited investment, everybody will get to continue having parties in Jack's hut. What happens is that everyone of Jack friends stays at home bored forever more because they don't want to spend the meagrest of resources, usually because they never gave a damn for Jack to being
with.
I would argue that Jack didn't have friends. He had a bunch of users who to advantage of him. He was willfully ignorant if he couldn't see that.
The problem with board games is that they are games. Is a person who stands lose their imaginary sword going to play the game the same way if they were going to lose their car? No.
This applies in so many fields of life. Jack has hut where he throws parties with friends. One day the wind damages the roof very badly and Jack asks for friends for help in order to get it repaired, because Jack is one-handed and has a wooden peg for a leg. Game theory dictates
that at least one of Jack's friends will help out, because for a limited investment, everybody will get to continue having parties in Jack's hut. What happens is that everyone of Jack friends stays at home bored forever more because they don't want to spend the meagrest of
And you are ignoring the many instances of "barn raising" and how communities come together to help each other in times of need.
Here is the thing:
No Capitalist has an issue with anybody setting up a cooperative as you describe. In fact no Capitalists would object if you managed to run a whole territory on cooperatives alone, as you describe.
Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
By: Dr. What to Arelor on Mon Jul 25 2022 08:32 am
This applies in so many fields of life. Jack has hut where he throws parties with friends. One day the wind damages the roof very badly a Jack asks for friends for help in order to get it repaired, because Jack is one-handed and has a wooden peg for a leg. Game theory dicta
that at least one of Jack's friends will help out, because for a limited investment, everybody will get to continue having parties in Jack's hut. What happens is that everyone of Jack friends stays at h bored forever more because they don't want to spend the meagrest of
this is the 'hare with many friends' aesop fable.
And you are ignoring the many instances of "barn raising" and how communities come together to help each other in times of need.
that doesn't happen anymore.
Here is the thing:
No Capitalist has an issue with anybody setting up a cooperative as you describe. In fact no Capitalists would object if you managed to run a whol territory on cooperatives alone, as you describe.
They don't like if if you are trying to force them into participating in one. That is one thing that confuses me... there are some people who
really want us to go to a cooperative or socialist model for our whole economy. However, if I point out that it would be fine if they want to get a bunch of like-minded people together and form one for themselves, they
are not at all interested in doing so.
Their interest seems to mostly be in forcing others to do something they don't want to.
* SLMR 2.1a * "Cool! I broke his brain!" - Bart on Principal Skinner
Arelor wrote to Dr. What <=-
I agree. My point is precisely that actual friends you can rely on for anything, even if trivial, are much, much more scarce than people
think.
A funny thing is that University Mafias are composed of people who are
not friends to each other but actualy cover for each other. You can
tell of Cathedratics who don't like somebody, yet they still do favors
to that person in order to get the favor in return later.
Meanwhile, a
lot of average folks don't get that relationships have a maintenance
cost and if you are not contributing at all you will get eventually cut out.
MRO wrote to Dr. What <=-
And you are ignoring the many instances of "barn raising" and how communities come together to help each other in times of need.
that doesn't happen anymore.
Dumas Walker wrote to ARELOR <=-
They don't like if if you are trying to force them into participating
in one. That is one thing that confuses me... there are some people
who really want us to go to a cooperative or socialist model for our
whole economy.
However, if I point out that it would be fine if they
want to get a bunch of like-minded people together and form one for themselves, they are not at all interested in doing so.
Their interest seems to mostly be in forcing others to do something
they don't want to.
Dr. What wrote to MRO <=-
And you are ignoring the many instances of "barn raising" and how communities come together to help each other in times of need.
that doesn't happen anymore.
Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
The fallacy in moving to a socialist model is everyone has to do their part. Everybody capable of working will have a job, regardless of how desirable or undesirable. If you want to go to school to lbecome a liberal arts major, it may or may not happen based on the society's need for it. If there is a need for floor sweepers, you may become one of the most educated of the floor sweepers. In China, they restrict travel of residents in farming communities so they will not walk away from the fields in order to work a factory job. Socialism may not be that stripped down, however the job you want may not be the job you like. Social assistance will not a bunch of giveaways, either.
However, if I point out that it would be fine if they
want to get a bunch of like-minded people together and form one for themselves, they are not at all interested in doing so.
That's because they are useless people. They want others to do the work (sinc
they incapable) and they want to reap the benefits (namely to not have to actually do work anymore).
Their interest seems to mostly be in forcing others to do something
they don't want to.
Their interest is the same as a scammer: How little work can I do to get something from someone else?
that doesn't happen anymore.
Explain Habitat for Humanities, and what they do.
MRO wrote to Dr. What <=-
And you are ignoring the many instances of "barn raising" and how communities come together to help each other in times of need.
that doesn't happen anymore.
Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
... copy *.txt > brain
We've probably discussed this before, but most of the pro-socialist persons I know do not understand this. They seem to believe that they will still be able to pursue their dreams of being able-bodied and having a liberal arts major while doing nothing. I suspect that some of them hope to gain favor from, or even a cushy government position from, those who would be in charge.
I believe that a vast majority of them would be in for a rude awakening.
The fallacy in moving to a socialist model is everyone has to do their par Everybody capable of working will have a job, regardless of how desirable undesirable. If you want to go to school to lbecome a liberal arts major, may or may not happen based on the society's need for it. If there is a n for floor sweepers, you may become one of the most educated of the floor sweepers. In China, they restrict travel of residents in farming communit so they will not walk away from the fields in order to work a factory job. Socialism may not be that stripped down, however the job you want may not the job you like. Social assistance will not a bunch of giveaways, either
We've probably discussed this before, but most of the pro-socialist persons I know do not understand this. They seem to believe that they will still
be able to pursue their dreams of being able-bodied and having a liberal arts major while doing nothing. I suspect that some of them hope to gain favor from, or even a cushy government position from, those who would be in charge.
I believe that a vast majority of them would be in for a rude awakening.
* SLMR 2.1a * "I didn't know chicks in videos wore underpants!"- Beavis
I believe that a vast majority of them would be in for a rude awakening.
A lot of people will be in for a rude awakening if the United States ever beco
s a socialist country. I have had family that came from behind the Iron curti
after world war 2. I have had friends that have come from socialist countries e to all sorts of issues that are a result of a communist / socialist country.
know people that have immigrated here to the us legally and they are terrifie
that it will happen here as well beacuse they see it starting to happen here
that doesn't happen anymore.
Explain Habitat for Humanities, and what they do.
you need to look deeper into that.
that doesn't happen anymore.
Explain Habitat for Humanities, and what they do.
you need to look deeper into that.
I am not sure about their international organization but, locally, they
team up with churches and private businesses to build homes for people who could not otherwise afford a mortgage. Those persons do still have to make payments... the house is not free but is more affordable than other homes.
that doesn't happen anymore.
Explain Habitat for Humanities, and what they do.
you need to look deeper into that.
I am not sure about their international organization but, locally, they
team up with churches and private businesses to build homes for people who could not otherwise afford a mortgage. Those persons do still have to make payments... the house is not free but is more affordable than other homes.
Several years ago, a tornado went through a town in Arkansas. The only homes left standing were HoH homes because they were the only ones built to the latest code.
* SLMR 2.1a * Keep your stick on the ice
Not sure how that works after the houses were built, but I do know one of the house our H4H volunteers at the place I worked at was for a lady whose kids were finally at an age where she could go to work, and she was provided supplemental education from the local junior college to provide certs to prove she had employable skills. The family had to help in building the house, and the families have to go through a selection process so the home
Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
By: Dumas Walker to MRO on Wed Jul 27 2022 04:14 pm
that doesn't happen anymore.
Explain Habitat for Humanities, and what they do.
you need to look deeper into that.
I am not sure about their international organization but, locally, they team up with churches and private businesses to build homes for people wh could not otherwise afford a mortgage. Those persons do still have to ma payments... the house is not free but is more affordable than other homes
some people arent meant to own homes. every Hfh home i know of has been sold off to someone else.
and pretty damn soon too.
Canada's healthcare system is a good example of limitations of services.
Some US cities have multiple hospitals and clinics that may provide
or advanced radiology services. In Canada you might have to drive 100 miles to another city. Second opinions requiring a drastic change in treatmenrt may not be approved. The service you receive will be the best for the budget they provide, but don't ask for more.
I am not sure about their international organization but, locally, they team up with churches and private businesses to build homes for people who could not otherwise afford a mortgage. Those persons do still have to make
payments... the house is not free but is more affordable than other homes.
some people arent meant to own homes. every Hfh home i know of has been sold off to someone else.
and pretty damn soon too.
Not sure how that works after the houses were built, but I do know one of the house our H4H volunteers at the place I worked at was for a lady whose kids were finally at an age where she could go to work, and she was provided supplemental education from the local junior college to provide certs to prove she had employable skills. The family had to help in building the house, and the families have to go through a selection process so the home
is going to someone who can sustain a home and keep it up versus giving a hood rat a new crack house.
One year we had Jimmy Carter and his wife come out and help build some houses in a new community project. Several old rotting houses were torn down and replaced by modern housing built up to code. He was still protected by Secret Service, and instead of looking like extras from Men in Black, they were wearing polo shirts, jeans, and work boots.
Very true. That doesn't mean people should stop offering help to those that need a chance to make their live's better. HfH recipients are required to provide "sweat equity" and help build other homes, and very few qualify. They cannot do any major renovations to the homes until they pay the mortage off, and must notify HfH if they decide to sell the house. Nice part is interest rate is 0%.
I was talking to a born-Canadian once who volunteered to serve in the US Army. It seems like we are often seeing news articles here in the US that give the VA healthcare system a black eye, but he told me he takes
advantage of his VA benefits, as a US veteran, and not his Canadian government-provided benefits. He said that, in his opinion, the VA (and US care in general) was better than what he could get at home.
Exactly. I have a family member who has been involved with H4H, participating on the building crews, for years now. They don't initially help just anyone get a home. They do have to help in building it, and they do have to go through a selection process.
Not sure how that works after the houses were built, but I do know one of house our H4H volunteers at the place I worked at was for a lady whose kid were finally at an age where she could go to work, and she was provided supplemental education from the local junior college to provide certs to prove she had employable skills. The family had to help in building the house, and the families have to go through a selection process so the home is going to someone who can sustain a home and keep it up versus giving a hood rat a new crack house.
Exactly. I have a family member who has been involved with H4H, participating on the building crews, for years now. They don't initially help just anyone get a home. They do have to help in building it, and they do have to go through a selection process.
One year we had Jimmy Carter and his wife come out and help build some hou in a new community project. Several old rotting houses were torn down and replaced by modern housing built up to code. He was still protected by Secret Service, and instead of looking like extras from Men in Black, they were wearing polo shirts, jeans, and work boots.
I am guessing that Jimmy puts them to work. :) 20+ years ago, Carter was here in KY working with a similar group in an event called "Hammering in
the Hills" where they were building homes in poorer areas of Appalachia.
Jimmy Carter was not great as a President when it comes to economics, but
he is one of the few recent ones that has really put an effort behind
trying to make lives better for people.
* SLMR 2.1a * What is mind? No matter! What is matter? Never mind!
Indeed. Carter is better know for what he did outside the office than when he was in the office.
One of the my teachers was a member of the Sotuhwest Michigan Economics Club, and each month they would bring in a speaker. He attended the time Carter spoke. He liked Carter becuase there were times when Carter failed, but was also ahead of the curve when it came to energy conservation.
After the speech, the line was long for getting autographs, so he went tothe restroom first. While finishing up a tthe urinal, a Secret Serviceman came in, checked all the stalls, then gave the "all clear" for Carter to use the
Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
By: Moondog to MRO on Thu Jul 28 2022 11:00 am
Very true. That doesn't mean people should stop offering help to those t need a chance to make their live's better. HfH recipients are required to provide "sweat equity" and help build other homes, and very few qualify. They cannot do any major renovations to the homes until they pay the mort off, and must notify HfH if they decide to sell the house. Nice part is interest rate is 0%.
nobody ever gave me any help so why should other people have it easy? especially when they arent cut out for it after getting so many handouts.
Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
By: Dumas Walker to MOONDOG on Thu Jul 28 2022 04:25 pm
Exactly. I have a family member who has been involved with H4H, participating on the building crews, for years now. They don't initially help just anyone get a home. They do have to help in building it, and th do have to go through a selection process.
no only do some people not have what it takes to OWN a home, not many people
Exactly. I have a family member who has been involved with H4H, participating on the building crews, for years now. They don't initially help just anyone get a home. They do have to help in building it, and they
do have to go through a selection process.
no only do some people not have what it takes to OWN a home, not many people h
e what it takes to help build a home.
nobody ever gave me any help so why should other people have it easy? especially when they arent cut out for it after getting so many handouts.
The objective is to get people who are on the verge of no longer needing handouts out of that trap and back into regular society. If you didn't need help, no one will lend you a hand. Easy is a relative term. When people are born, the cards may already ben stacked against them. Some have to climb further up the rope to get clear of rising water. They might have to fight their own peers pulling them down.
Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
By: Moondog to MRO on Fri Jul 29 2022 11:31 am
nobody ever gave me any help so why should other people have it easy? especially when they arent cut out for it after getting so many handou
The objective is to get people who are on the verge of no longer needing handouts out of that trap and back into regular society. If you didn't n help, no one will lend you a hand. Easy is a relative term. When people are born, the cards may already ben stacked against them. Some have to climb further up the rope to get clear of rising water. They might have fight their own peers pulling them down.
that's just a bunch of words without meaning. i got myself out of the hole. other people can do that too.
Over the years, I have known people who lived behind the Iron Curtain, as well as that have fled Vietnam and mainland China. As you may have noticed, when you mention such people to any of your "friends" that hope for our country to become socialist/communist, they will downplay their experiences, as if it was their fault that they did not "enjoy" life in such a place.
Some of them must live in a dreamworld.
Over the years, I have known people who lived behind the Iron Curtain, as well as that have fled Vietnam and mainland China. As you may have noticed, when you mention such people to any of your "friends" that hope for our country to become socialist/communist, they will downplay their experiences, as if it was their fault that they did not "enjoy" life in such a place.
Some of them must live in a dreamworld.
Brokenmind wrote to Dumas Walker <=-
Over the years, I have known people who lived behind the Iron Curtain, as well as that have fled Vietnam and mainland China. As you may have noticed, when you mention such people to any of your "friends" that hope for our country to become socialist/communist, they will downplay their experiences, as if it was their fault that they did not "enjoy" life in such a place.
Some of them must live in a dreamworld.
A dreamworld / another reality / or not able to be open and
transparent and will get offened if corrected thats alot of the
problem in todays world also.
Quoting Gamgee to Brokenmind <=-
Brokenmind wrote to Dumas Walker <=-
Over the years, I have known people who lived behind the Iron Curtain, as well as that have fled Vietnam and mainland China. As you may have noticed, when you mention such people to any of your "friends" that hope for our country to become socialist/communist, they will downplay their experiences, as if it was their fault that they did not "enjoy" life in such a place.
Some of them must live in a dreamworld.
A dreamworld / another reality / or not able to be open and
transparent and will get offened if corrected thats alot of the
problem in todays world also.
Spelling and grammar are some other major problems in today's world.
... All hope abandon, ye who enter messages here.
Cougar428 wrote to GAMGEE <=-
A dreamworld / another reality / or not able to be open and
transparent and will get offened if corrected thats alot of the
problem in todays world also.
Spelling and grammar are some other major problems in today's world.
... All hope abandon, ye who enter messages here.
Hey there Gamgee. I'm new here, but looking at some of your
messages, it appears that you take your tagline seriously.
Over the years, I have known people who lived behind the Iron Curtain, as
well as that have fled Vietnam and mainland China. As you may have noticed, when you mention such people to any of your "friends" that hope for our country to become socialist/communist, they will downplay their experiences, as if it was their fault that they did not "enjoy" life in such a place.
Some of them must live in a dreamworld.
A dreamworld / another reality / or not able to be open and transparent and wi
get offened if corrected thats alot of the problem in todays world also.
Indeed it is. Another part of that problem is being afraid to offend those types of folks. Instead our society has taken the path of accepting bad behavior, that was past unacceptable, and then for some unknown reason expecting good to come out of it.
hosIndeed it is. Another part of that problem is being afraid to offend
types of folks. Instead our society has taken the path of accepting bad behavior, that was past unacceptable, and then for some unknown reason expecting good to come out of it.
I agree and it's not helping anyone
| Sysop: | Coz |
|---|---|
| Location: | Anoka, MN |
| Users: | 2 |
| Nodes: | 4 (0 / 4) |
| Uptime: | 142:50:47 |
| Calls: | 166 |
| Files: | 5,389 |
| Messages: | 223,270 |
