Andeddu wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Thu Nov 19 2020 09:12 pm
They have freed the market to some degree, which is why their economy has grown so much. Though when you grow from nothing, the growth figures are always high.
People have a very economy-centric view of things. They think that just having a big economy makes you a power. There are a lot of other subtle characteristics that make a country a power. My argument is that economy alone won't do it
I'm not an expert on China, but we do have significant Chinese presence in Australia. Without the West, they would not be where they are now.
A Chinese led world will stagnate. Absolutely.
China will become the World's premier superpower due to the USA's
decline and fall. I agree that they'll have A LOT less cultural
influence than America has had in the past. Again, it depends on what happens to our own cultures over the next couple of years as the
economic collapse will result in a paradigm shift. Our decisions
regarding COVID have ravaged our economies and it'll take many years to rebuild what we've lost.
Their military is behind the USA's but as far as I can tell, they're investing a lot more in high tech war machines with a focus on unmanned vehicles and AI. I don't doubt that by the end of the decade, they will have the most powerful military.
Either way, I'd like to see the USA recover quickly to reclaim its
former position. With Biden in charge, I can't see that happening as
he's absolutely committed to green energy and transforming the economic system at its foundational level. It's a big gamble as it's going to place the USA into trillions of more debt (it's already reached 27Tr USD... 27 million million dollars, like, what the fuck?) and we have no idea if it'll be efficent enough to produce the desired results.
Do you think in 2050 that China will project the same cultural and
political influence that the USA did in 1985? Do you think the world
will take their cues, and be influenced by China, wanting to be China,
in the same way?
Think about all the developments we take for granted, the car, plane, computers and computing software and systems, much science and
technology, democracy, liberty, the standard world language, English,
all from the West. China has one FIFTH of the worlds population, but doesn't have that influence. When the West invented the printing press,
it caused a revolution, not just in printing, but in religion and
ideology, it changed us completely. China didn't undergo such a change.
That is the difference. China may end up having power, and military control, but it won't be a world-shaper the way that Britain or the US,
or even Greece and Rome was. They try to sell the idea that Australia should be part of Asia here, but it is only opportunistic business
leaders who want to sell us out that say that. It won't happen. China
only influences "Chinese Living Abroad". It is an insular nation.
We are exposed to China a lot in Australia, and China is just a
precense, maybe a bully, but not a leader, not a model. Their empire
won't last nearly as long, hell, they are gaining more and more
opposition and movement against them, and they haven't even started.
Andeddu wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Sun Nov 08 2020 12:42 am
Do you think in 2050 that China will project the same cultural and
political influence that the USA did in 1985? Do you think the world
will take their cues, and be influenced by China, wanting to be China,
in the same way?
Think about all the developments we take for granted, the car, plane, computers and computing software and systems, much science and
technology, democracy, liberty, the standard world language, English,
all from the West. China has one FIFTH of the worlds population, but doesn't have that influence. When the West invented the printing press,
it caused a revolution, not just in printing, but in religion and
ideology, it changed us completely. China didn't undergo such a change.
That is the difference. China may end up having power, and military control, but it won't be a world-shaper the way that Britain or the US,
or even Greece and Rome was. They try to sell the idea that Australia should be part of Asia here, but it is only opportunistic business
leaders who want to sell us out that say that. It won't happen. China
only influences "Chinese Living Abroad". It is an insular nation.
We are exposed to China a lot in Australia, and China is just a
precense, maybe a bully, but not a leader, not a model. Their empire
won't last nearly as long, hell, they are gaining more and more
opposition and movement against them, and they haven't even started.
Absent in China are any revolutions that the West had to undergo in the last 5 centuries. Their top down stranglehold on the population is both
a strength and a weakness though. I think they have enough steam to
bully other nations for a considerable length of time, perhaps for the remainder of my natural lifetime. They are an example of an ordered society, one which has underwent severe social conditioning and
control. Everyone seems to have a place and something to contribute to society. Do you not think that this model could be imported as a
template for Western nations?
Scholars say that Western culture is dying. This means that it'll be replaced with something else... the question is - what?
I think Western leaders have tried, and failed. I believe there are differences between the East and West, and this is one of the ways it manifests itself. Europe has fewer people than China, yet is diverse, divided, difficult to control. You could take over maybe a few countries, but you would be stopped by another strong country, and another strong leader. China on the other hand can run under one system, because there is so little opposition, comparitively speaking. If Xi Xinping was in Europe, there would be another equal to face him. The question is, is the Chinese mentality a product of their systems, or are their systems a product of their mentality? I suspect the latter. Social conditioning and conformity works because of the population. China today isn't vastly different to China in the past in many ways. Sure, there have been rebellions, but China today is still unified. European Communism on the other hand fell apart. How long would Hitler have controlled Europe without coming undone? Not for generations. Even the Romans had trouble with the Barbarians up north. The Ottomans and Mongols were stopped at Vienna.
Is there a growing fascist presence in the USA? Absolutely. But I can't imagine it taking over the way that the Chinese version did, not without the country breaking apart, and some form of dissolution of the USA into its component parts. Europe may be more prone to fascism (as they have historically been, which is why the USA is really the core of Western Civilisation). This is why I think China is in actuality weak, as paradoxical as it sounds. The reason that China can be a quasi-totalitarian state with over 1 billion people working in lockstep is precisely because it lacks the dynamism within the people which propels civilisation forward.
I predict that the upcoming economic downturn will be severe enough to resul in such a high level of volatility and instability that the people are going DEMAND a more ordered and structured society. I genuinely wouldn't be surpri if I saw the police gradually becoming more and more authoritarian as our wa of life descends into complete disarray. When there's a real chance of viole erupting in the streets whenever you're out and there's stories of home invasions and thefts, vandalisms and muggings on the rise, etc... freedom lo its importance in favour of security. We could realistically end up with a system much like China's... the only difference is that once the dust has settled and everything returns to a state of normality, would we still toler government oppression?
Andeddu wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Sun Nov 22 2020 09:13 pm
I think Western leaders have tried, and failed. I believe there are differences between the East and West, and this is one of the ways it manifests itself. Europe has fewer people than China, yet is diverse, divided, difficult to control. You could take over maybe a few countries, but you would be stopped by another strong country, and another strong leader. China on the other hand can run under one system, because there is so little opposition, comparitively speaking. If Xi Xinping was in Europe, there would be another equal to face him. The question is, is the Chinese mentality a product of their systems, or are their systems a product of their mentality? I suspect the latter. Social conditioning and conformity works because of the population. China today isn't vastly different to China in the past in many ways. Sure, there have been rebellions, but China today is still unified. European Communism on the other hand fell apart. How long would Hitler have controlled Europe without coming undone? Not for generations. Even the Romans had trouble with the Barbarians up north. The Ottomans and Mongols were stopped at Vienna.
Is there a growing fascist presence in the USA? Absolutely. But I can't imagine it taking over the way that the Chinese version did, not without the country breaking apart, and some form of dissolution of the USA into its component parts. Europe may be more prone to fascism (as they have historically been, which is why the USA is really the core of Western Civilisation). This is why I think China is in actuality weak, as paradoxical as it sounds. The reason that China can be a quasi-totalitarian state with over 1 billion people working in lockstep is precisely because it lacks the dynamism within the people which propels civilisation forward.
I guess it's only conjecture but you may be correct about the mentality aspect. Even Japan, which is capitalistic in nature, appears more
ordered than most Western nations.
I predict that the upcoming economic downturn will be severe enough to result in such a high level of volatility and instability that the
people are going to DEMAND a more ordered and structured society. I genuinely wouldn't be surprised if I saw the police gradually becoming more and more authoritarian as our way of life descends into complete disarray. When there's a real chance of violence erupting in the
streets whenever you're out and there's stories of home invasions and thefts, vandalisms and muggings on the rise, etc... freedom loses its importance in favour of security. We could realistically end up with a system much like China's... the only difference is that once the dust
has settled and everything returns to a state of normality, would we
still tolerate government oppression?
Europe is also a tough cookie to crack as it's many different nations
and cultures rolled up into a relatively small geographical area. The Western nations of Europe are also culturally and historically distinct from the Eastern Slavonic states.
Arelor wrote to Andeddu <=-
That sounds like Venezuela to me.
Appoint a dear leader to save us all during a time of emergency. Then
the leader screws everybody up and squeezes the country dry.
That sounds like Venezuela to me.
Appoint a dear leader to save us all during a time of emergency. Then the leader screws everybody up and squeezes the country dry.
--
Europe is also a tough cookie to crack as it's many different nations and cultures rolled up into a relatively small geographical area. The Western nations of Europe are also culturally and historically distinct from the Eastern Slavonic states.
Something I don't think that Europeans realize about the United States is that it, too, has areas that are culturally and at least recent-historically distinct.
Those distinctions may not necessarly follow state boundaries, but they do follow regional ones. TV and the Internet may have made that less so, but it is so. The only time the US seems to have the same aims is when we are at war with someone. Let too much time without a war pass and we start fighting with each other.
obviously deeper in Europe though as the Slavonic states have their own languages and a completely seperate culture (literature, entertainment, cuisine...etc,) which is no where near as Americanised as our own.
obviously deeper in Europe though as the Slavonic states have their own languages and a completely seperate culture (literature, entertainment, cuisine...etc,) which is no where near as Americanised as our own.
usa has separate cutures. usa was a melting pot.
a lot of immigrants dont leave behind their culture.
on my mom's side those fuckers are american gypsies. you wouldnt be understand their language and some of them pretty much exist out of normal society.
the usa is probably the most diverse country on the planet.
Yes, I agree that the US is diverse enough and is large enough to from a geographic perspective to produce culturally distinct regions. It's obviously deeper in Europe though as the Slavonic states have their own languages and a completely seperate culture (literature, entertainment, cuisine...etc,) which is no where near as Americanised as our own.
That is true. We only have pockets of distinctions as deep as that,
and many of them are disappearing/have disappeared in the information age.
We in the UK are much more culturally aligned with our American cousins than we are with Eastern Europeans. I really don't think there's much that seperates us over here than with yourselves.
we arent cousins and we arent that same.
Re: Re: Who WON??
By: MRO to Andeddu on Fri Nov 27 2020 04:22 pm
we arent cousins and we arent that same.
The social kindship between the Americans and the British has existed through most of the duration of US history, and was remarked upon by some of the Founders of the United States soon after the Revolutionary War - particularly the first US Ambassador to the United Kingdom, John Adams.
Andeddu wrote to MRO <=-
we arent cousins and we arent that same.
The social kindship between the Americans and the British has
existed through most of the duration of US history, and was
remarked upon by some of the Founders of the United States soon
after the Revolutionary War - particularly the first US
Ambassador to the United Kingdom, John Adams.
Right. Then maybe you'll understand this:
Bugger off, mate.
The social kindship between the Americans and the British has
existed through most of the duration of US history, and was
remarked upon by some of the Founders of the United States soon
after the Revolutionary War - particularly the first US
Ambassador to the United Kingdom, John Adams.
The "duration of US history" implies the future. I personally don't like British people and feel no kindship what so ever.
Re: Re: Who WON??
By: HusTler to Anduddu on Thu Dec 03 2020 07:46 am
The "duration of US history" implies the future. I personally don't
like British people and feel no kindship what so ever.
That's you though. Past Presidents and Prime Ministers have spoken of our 'special relationship'... I believe even Trump echoed similar sentiment
MRO wrote to Andeddu <=-
Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Andeddu to HusTler on Thu Dec 03 2020 05:58 pm
Re: Re: Who WON??
By: HusTler to Anduddu on Thu Dec 03 2020 07:46 am
The "duration of US history" implies the future. I personally don't
like British people and feel no kindship what so ever.
That's you though. Past Presidents and Prime Ministers have spoken of our 'special relationship'... I believe even Trump echoed similar sentiment
well the UK is the usa's bitch. so if you want to call it a special relationship, go ahead. more like special as in mentally retarded.
The "duration of US history" implies the future. I personally don't
like British people and feel no kindship what so ever.
That's you though. Past Presidents and Prime Ministers have spoken of our 'special relationship'... I believe even Trump echoed similar sentiment
well the UK is the usa's bitch. so if you want to call it a special relationship, go ahead. more like special as in mentally retarded.
That's you though. Past Presidents and Prime Ministers have spoken of our 'special relationship'... I believe even Trump echoed similar sentiments.
I believe you are correct re: Trump.
Re: US (hearts) UK (or not!)
By: Dumas Walker to ANDEDDU on Fri Dec 04 2020 11:31 am
I believe you are correct re: Trump.
Trump's mother is British which is why he has such a soft spot for my country. When Obama said we'd be at the back of the queue re Brexit, Trump said we'd be at the front.
I believe you are correct re: Trump.
Trump's mother is British which is why he has such a soft spot for my country. >When Obama said we'd be at the back of the queue re Brexit, Trump said we'd be >at the front.
i dont think trump has a soft spot for the uk.
Re: US (hearts) UK (or not!)
By: MRO to Andeddu on Sat Dec 05 2020 05:45 pm
i dont think trump has a soft spot for the uk.
He was very nice to begin with and did gratiate us with compliments, however he has become rather cross with many of our politicans over the last couple of years.
Winston Churchill's mother was also an American, IIRC.
Obama was very soft on the EU. They could ask or do what they wanted to
and he'd go along with it. "Take on a bigger burden re: pollution so that other countries like China can skate a while longer? Sure thing!" It will be interesting to see how our relationship with Britain goes with Biden
(or Harris) at the helm. I fear that you all might be back at the back of the queue again.
here's how trump works.
he makes friends from enemies.
he invites them over and they have a great weekend together. this is what everyone says about him. he makes friends with them. when they are friends they are less likely to make shitty comments and do shitty things.
it's a great tactic regardless of his motives.
I would agree however our Conservative politicans were glad Biden won the election. Brexit is a total farce, I am not even convinced it'll happen anymor
as there's next to no political will to get it over the line. The politicians we have appear to be pro-EU and the only reason they're carrying out any discussion is due to the will of the people as per the '16 referendum. I think
Johnson has more in common with Biden than Trump. All of a sudden he's talking
about his Ten Point Plan for a Green Industrial Revolution which is identical to The Green New Deal proposed by Biden and his cohorts. He used to talk like Trump in regards to rebuilding a manufacturing base but it is now all about climate change and sustainable development.
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